Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 182. Fundamental Footprints - Lee Roberson

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182. Fundamental Footprints - Lee Roberson · 4-Freedom Podcast

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For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
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not for Pharisee. Grace, lift the flame now I'm
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puffing. Peace signals and victory
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justified. Released.
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Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
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This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
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everyday Christians with everyday issues.
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I ain't. Saved by dress codes, not by
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what I eat. I'm covered in the
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righteousness. Washed from head to feet.
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No tally of tradition, No man made code.
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Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
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They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
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But my prey still ascends past the legalist cries.
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Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
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So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
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He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with Saints.
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Slipping grace from the bottle, No room for face.
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I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
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Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
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For freedom He set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
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not for Pharisee Grace slit the flame.
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Now puffing peace, cigars and victory justified, released.
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For freedom, He set me free, not for change, not for guilt, not
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for Pharisee Grace slit the flame.
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Now puffing peace, cigars and victory justified, released.
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Let grace begin For freedom He bet me free.
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Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee.
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Grace slit the flame. Down here, your host James
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Seyfried and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the Four Freedom
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Podcast. We're so glad to be with you
1:32
today. It's a wonderful day to be out
1:35
in podcast land. And we've had some good
1:39
interviews the past couple weeks, some good episodes.
1:41
I've really, really been looking forward to it, to what we have
1:45
coming, coming forward-looking very happy with what we've done.
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And James, how are you doing today?
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Man, I'm doing well. We had a great week and weekend
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at our church. We had a serve week which we
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just service projects in North Carolina where we go about doing
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some things in the community. We did a basketball camp, a
2:07
volleyball camp, some service projects, some updating of some
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widows houses and cleaning. We rebuilt our playground here
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at our church. And then we had our back to
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school bash this past Sunday. Had a great group from the
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community. Our church was there just right
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after the morning service, lots of school supplies that were
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donated and just a good spirit around the church and we had a
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great time. Looking forward to what the Lord
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going to do in the future as school starts back, as school,
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public school start back, as we've got games that are coming
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up. It's always an exciting time to
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be in the schools. I like to be in there.
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We do a Wednesday prayer meeting before schools every Wednesday
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and it's a great time to just be a part of the kids lives.
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Good News club coming up, being there with the younger
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elementary kids and just excited about that.
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Our kids started back at school and that's always a a breath of
3:02
fresh air for me. When they start back.
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My schedule opens up a little bit, but man, we're still wide
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open counseling sessions daily and just have a lot lot going.
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And I always appreciate our listeners and those that TuneIn
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and listen every week faithfully.
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We appreciate your feedback. We appreciate your comments.
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The the messages that you send us.
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It's always great. And Brett, Brett, Speaking of
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messages, we've got a couple. We want to do a couple of
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reviews. We did this long time ago.
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Me and John did just a couple of our iTunes podcast, Apple
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podcast ratings. And when you leave a review, we
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do like to look at it. Sometimes we fail to look at it.
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It's not one of the things we go to every day, but it does help
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us out. If you do leave a review.
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I prefer do you leave a five star review or a one star review
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and then tell us what's going on.
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Tell us what you think. 234 stars, they don't really do much
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for us, but the ones and the fives, they help us in our
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ratings up or down. So help us out by doing that.
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If you've never given us a review, go by click on that,
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that five or one star. However you, you appreciate our
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our thoughts on it and we'll, we'll go through these.
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Brett, how about I start with one and then you can go to 1 and
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then we'll go through a couple more.
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This one is by a person named Finding Normal.
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I don't know who Finding Normal is.
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Hopefully you're listening. Hopefully you haven't tuned us
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out. Apparently they left an original
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review that was maybe a five star.
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They went back in, they reverted this review and they made it a
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two star review. The original review read as this
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and it's how they labeled it original review.
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I was moved by the host story when he started it on another
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podcast. This was John Back with Eric
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Skorzinski having experienced something familiar and similar.
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He just, we just discovered the podcast.
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We can't stop listening. The episodes covering the
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history of the IFB are crucial to understanding the issues
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we're facing today. A much needed message.
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Keep up the good work. I think we've kept up the good
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work and I appreciate that. But then there's an update
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review. The update review, it says no
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different than the IFB. I'm grieved and dishearted by
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this podcast. It's no longer a safe space for
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spiritual abuse survivors. The focus seems to shift, not in
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a good way, around the time it became part of the RFP network.
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The episodes about biblical counseling especially were eye
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opening. A lot of problematic beliefs
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were exposed in those episodes, beliefs exactly like the IFB for
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which they claim to be so different.
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They may not have legalistic standards about dress or music,
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but they hold the same toxic core beliefs.
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We'll unpack that here in just a minute.
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If the host reads this, which this is the first time I'm
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reading this, I'm sorry I asked you.
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Please, if you really care about helping hurting people, read The
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Body Keeps the Score, which I've read and helps you understand
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trauma, as well as Rebecca Davis's untwisting scripture
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books. And her blog Hears thejoy.com
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for a better understanding of why the counseling you advocate
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is so dangerous and actually enables wickedness.
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Well, Brett, that's a long review.
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We've actually brought on Rebecca Davis.
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Did not even read this. Did not read this not knowing
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what we, we were recommended by someone to reach out to her and
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so we did and she came on, we shared with her some of our
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counseling background and and she didn't tell us anything
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that, that, that our counseling background, my, my John's
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counselor background was wickedness.
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I think she would have if if it was and so confused on that.
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And then the the biblical counseling narrative that we
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have just the neutetic counseling.
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I think it does have a bad rap at times.
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People do have that. The the I believe it was Jack
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Howes that use the term neutetic counseling and biblical
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counseling. And that's where sort of this
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the, the drift away. We, I just had a meeting just
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today with a lady opened up to Psalms 57.
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We walked through Psalms 57 on David's repentant heart, how he
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was seeking the Lord in safety and refuge.
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And we just walked through the principles of Psalms 57, that
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that's biblical counseling. It's taking Scripture, it's
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applying it to our life and it's helping and giving hope and
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help. And so that that's really the
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core of what we do and why we do it.
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We just use the Bible as our core belief doctrine them to
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help people. So finding normal hate that this
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is here. Reach out to me
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james.safer@gmail.com. Shoot me a call 828-929-9144.
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We'd love to hear from you or talk to you or or maybe discuss
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some of these things with you. But I'm I'm sorry you gave us
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two star review. Brett, what's your thoughts?
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What's another one? Or maybe your thoughts on that?
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Well, you know, it seems like, you know, that they like the IFP
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stuff, but when you got into the, they're saying when you got
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into the counseling, they had a problem with that.
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Well, you know, I, I mean, I agree with everything that
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you're saying. You know, we're, we're pastors,
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we're supposed to use the Bible to counsel with.
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But the difference is I think you have to know that when it's
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time to pass somebody on, like if you come across the situation
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and you can like, please speak to this, you probably more
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qualified to speak to it than me.
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But when you counsel someone and you come across a situation
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you're not qualified to handle ethically, it's ethically you're
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to pass that person on to somebody that is qualified.
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And just because you're a pastor doesn't mean you're, you know,
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you may be, you know, unless you have a specific training that
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you're, you know, that you're able to counsel every single
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situation. And I think people abuse that.
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You got pastors out here that are saying, hey, you know, I've,
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you know, I can counsel everything that you've got,
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every problem you have. And ethically, you know, when
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you have the right training, you pass someone on that's beyond
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your expertise. Is is that correct?
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Yeah, I think there's there's times for that right now in my
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ministry. I've never encountered that
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situation where I've had to pass them to someone else.
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I do believe that the scripture is enough for, for all the
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problems of life and what we go through.
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And so having scripture to, to bounce back on and the wisdom of
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the Lord, the wisdom of Solomon and David are, are great things
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for us to do and to have. So I know there's times where
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there's, there's children and, and adults that have been hurt
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in different situations and, and sometimes there is an
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appropriate time to seek a different trained counselor,
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someone that can help them in different situations, maybe has
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specialization in a specific area.
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But but yeah, I think that that definitely we've got to have
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biblical counseling in our lives as Christians.
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We've got to go to the appropriate spiritual
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authorities. I always recommend everyone
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going to your own pastor 1st and having him help you, having him
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give advice and wisdom before seeking counsel somewhere else.
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That's the spiritually man that that God's put in your life and
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you need to respect that and respect that authority that's
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there. All right, let's go on to our
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next comment. This is by KB Ship and here,
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here it is. It's a one star review.
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I don't get this podcast. Here's some biblical advice on
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how to live your life. Oh, but please buy our cigars
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that will potentially kill you as well.
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Make it make sense, man. We, we should just shut the shop
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down, shouldn't we, James? Yeah, you know, I'm I'm not
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going to ride in my vehicle anymore because I could
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potentially die in a car accident.
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Don't want to make a lot of of KB ship either but I mean I I.
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Think that the whole for me and I, I, I, I do apologize if I
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come across in the mocking telling I didn't mean to.
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But the the thing for me is that, you know, our whole
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episode, I mean our whole podcast is about the liberty we
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have in Christ that that that's what it's about that we we're
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we're not under the law. We're not under these man made
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laws. We're under scripture and the
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scripture, you know, defines what we do and and don't do and
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not man made tradition or somebody's preference.
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And I think that, you know, showcasing our liberty in the in
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like the cigars is something that, you know, scripture allows
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us to do. And that's the that's the kind
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of the point of what we're doing.
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Do you agree? Yeah, I agree.
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And it's an opportunity that that arose for us and I don't, I
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don't have any. I've been smoking cigars since I
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was, yeah, 18/19/20 years old. And so I've always enjoyed.
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It's just a sort of a little pastime that I've enjoyed.
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My my grandfather did a pipe and a cigars often eventually went
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to cigarettes. But I don't, I say this often, I
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don't have an addictive personality.
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There are people that naturally are addicted to things.
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I could put down cigars and I've I've went years without smoking
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before. And so I think that it's it's
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knowing who you are. If you have addictive
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personalities, hey, don't do things that are addictive in
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nature and knowing who you are and what you are are great
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things. Long leaf premium tobacco cigars
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are very, very unlikely. There are chances anything you,
13:12
you eat the wrong food, you can get cancer and it can kill you.
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So they're not saying there's not a possibility for smoking
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cigars to get cancer and getting sick, but I think there's wisdom
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and guidance in using those things and.
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Do anything in excess and it can be bad.
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That's the that's kind of the point of Scripture's trying to
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tell us. Yeah.
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And you know, for me, I did struggle a little bit.
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Hey, you know, is this is this something whatever And I I
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talked to my wife about it and she said, James, you are very
13:40
high strung. I've got lots of energy.
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She said this is something that an hour of your day, if you can,
13:47
you know, get away for an hour, you're going to on purpose, slow
13:49
down. And so take that time.
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I think this is hobbies that that are good for us to expend.
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You know, some people do golf, some people do hunting, fishing,
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whatever it may be. These are ways where we can
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decompress as men that have a good community that we can talk
14:06
together. And I think that's what it's
14:07
more about. It's more about using this as a
14:09
tool to disciple one another, to evangelize, to tell people about
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the gospel. I've never went to a lounge and
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never share, never not share the gospel with someone.
14:20
Inevitably in that hour conversation, someone's going to
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ask, what do you do for a living?
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And I say my pastor and we begin talking about, you know, they'll
14:28
ask a theological question and I get to share the gospel with
14:30
them. We're stuck there for an hour.
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Like they can get up and move and someone else come and talk.
14:34
And so I think it's a good tool, good Ave.
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And for us, it's a good way for us to be able to support the
14:41
podcast and, and make just a little bit of money, not more,
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not rolling in the dough by any means, just a way to to support
14:47
some of the expenses that we do have.
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So yeah, hey, we'll read a a +1 here.
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It says thank you for having the courage to address this issue.
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This was a year ago, I may have been while we were in Nicaragua
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because it's a who hermano in Christo.
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So your brother in Christ is what that translates to.
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And so grateful for that. And I did have one more two
15:12
years ago that I wanted to read. It was by CJ Nob Illinois and
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this one it says 2 star review. It says the beginning of this
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podcast is really great. The insights to the beginning of
15:26
the IFB and Baptist secession of some are suburb.
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Unfortunately things go downhill.
15:32
I'm glad they did the episode on biblical counseling recently.
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It makes perfectly clear whether or not a safe environment for
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survivors and spiritual abuse, they may understand legalism,
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but they don't understand the deep effects of God and the
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Bible being used to traumatize people.
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I do believe that that's there when, when Scripture is used to
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bow breed people, when it's used in the counseling room, it can
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definitely be a struggle. And so that's that's part of
15:54
working through that. They're also continuing to
15:57
perpetrate a lot of harmful IP theology despite standing
16:00
against legalism. And then the last statement,
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which sort of just stood out to me as well from the last one.
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I'm not sure why. Perhaps joining the RFP network
16:08
has gotten them off in the wrong direction or providing too much
16:11
external control of their content.
16:13
Perhaps it's just getting comfortable with familiar
16:15
teaching without questioning their assumptions enough to go
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back. The RFP never dictated what we
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couldn't couldn't do or say. Exactly.
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Both these comments came at the same time.
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So I don't know if it was something when the RFP network
16:30
had some skiff and rough up that people were just uncomfortable
16:34
with, maybe with church split and all that.
16:35
We're not going to rehash it. But there the RFP is no more.
16:40
The the network is no more and excited about what JC is going
16:43
to be doing with his new podcast.
16:46
And the other side of that is we're potentially going to be
16:50
joining a new network guy who has reached out to me, Mark
16:54
Goodson, about possibly joining a new podcast network.
16:58
And so we're praying about that, looking it over and excited
17:02
about what the Lord's going to do in the future.
17:04
And so, Brett, we've got some things coming up.
17:07
That's the reviews we've got on iTunes on on the Apple podcast
17:11
go by, give us a review. Maybe we'll read it in two or
17:14
three years when we get back to doing that.
17:18
Brett, what else we got going on?
17:20
We got some let's. See, but don't forget about
17:23
Israel. We have never stopped planning
17:26
on going to Israel. We still have our trip going.
17:30
Seems like we're going to be going the same time as our buddy
17:32
Marcus Merritt. So we might, you know, hook up
17:34
with him while we're there. But it's, you know, January.
17:39
Let's see, it's end of January beginning February and I've got
17:42
the dates up right here. No, I don't.
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But we'll look those up for you and we'll we'll make those
17:48
available to you. January 30th through February
17:51
7th. OK, yes, and we are, we are
17:55
going to the Holy Land and we want you to come with us.
17:59
We've got our links and our website up, our trip website up
18:03
with the payment plan. Listen, things are safe.
18:07
We've contacted people, there are tours on the ground right
18:11
now. There's there's there's nothing
18:13
to worry about. Things are safe and the the
18:17
country is open. And I'm telling you with with
18:21
with the government that we've got in place now is Raleigh some
18:26
of the best time to go right now to Israel.
18:29
And so listen, we want you to go.
18:32
It's something that you're going to never regret that you did.
18:37
It's going to be, you know, you're going to spend the money
18:39
and it's going to be totally worth it.
18:42
So if you're interested in going to the Holy Lamb, hit us up.
18:47
Check out our website on it, check out our trip, see what we
18:50
have planned. Check out our itinerary for what
18:54
we're going to do. It's going to be a great time.
18:57
It's going to bring your Bible to life, going to go from black
19:00
and white to color. You'll never read your Bible or
19:04
listen to preaching again. These places that are preached
19:07
about you, you would have been there.
19:09
You have seen it. I'll give you an example.
19:12
Me and my family before we get to season 5 of the chosen, which
19:18
I love the chosen. We're going back and starting
19:21
from the beginning and re watching the show up until
19:25
season 5. And last night we watched the
19:29
episode where Jesus went to Nazareth.
19:32
He's preaching in the synagogue and they take him up to the
19:36
Cliff and they're going to throw him off the Cliff.
19:38
And I told my boys I've stood on that Cliff.
19:41
You know, it's not the exact same Cliff that is shown in the
19:45
show, but the actual Cliff that they were going to throw Jesus
19:48
off of me and James stood on. And it's called Mount Precipice.
19:52
And you looking out over the Jezreel Valley and listen it,
19:56
it's an amazing thing. You're not going to miss it.
19:59
Come to Israel with us. Yeah, it's going to be great.
20:02
Can't wait. I'm excited about it and I hope
20:04
you can join us. If you've got questions about
20:06
it, shoot us a message or just go to our our website.
20:10
We've got all the details there with the password where you can
20:12
go and check that out. Brett, we've also, we talked
20:15
about it for a bit. We won't talk about it much, but
20:17
we've got some cigars and we'd love for you to support us and
20:21
go to our website. You can get the link there of,
20:24
of what they are, how they are. And we appreciate all the ones
20:27
that have bought in the past and have enjoyed supporting us.
20:30
And then we've also, I've got a conference in September,
20:35
September 11th, 12th and 13th in, in Tullahoma, Tennessee,
20:41
which is right beside where John lives.
20:43
And so I'm going to be going there.
20:44
If you're in the Tennessee area. That time we're going to be
20:46
setting up a, a booth. We'll have our products on the
20:49
table. We'll have our newest released
20:51
book out. We're going to have some
20:53
exclusive signed copies while we're there with me and John.
20:56
So he's going to sign it and we'll have those for sale.
21:00
If you haven't checked out our book, go check it out on Amazon.
21:02
It would be a great resource for you if you are someone who has
21:06
struggled with leaving the IFB or know someone who is currently
21:09
struggling in that process. Title books from brokenness to
21:13
freedom, how to find hope and healing renewal in the journey
21:18
forward from that. And so go by check it out From
21:21
brokenness to freedom. And I've got ebook hardback, I'm
21:25
sorry, hardback and paperback. You can go and check that out
21:29
and I know it'll be a great resource for you.
21:32
I appreciate the feedback from those who have purchased it and
21:34
reached out to me. Several people have have reached
21:37
out and said, hey, they appreciate it.
21:38
And so thank you for that. Brett, anything else we got
21:42
coming up? Nothing comes to mind.
21:46
What do we got? All right, that's all I honestly
21:50
thought. I think that's it.
21:51
I think we're good to go. Let's jump into today's episode.
21:56
And today, we're going to be tracing the steps of the story
21:59
of Tennessee Temple University, Highland Park Baptist Church and
22:04
its founder, Doctor Lee Robertson.
22:07
This school of ministry that left a huge, huge mark on the
22:10
IFP landscape. Lee Robertson was one of those
22:14
heroes of mine. 3 to thrive. And then his voice, you know, it
22:18
was just great to hear that. My pastor, Eric Pacey there, I
22:22
went to college. Yet he was one of those students
22:25
under Lee Robertson. And he had him come in during
22:28
those early years of gospel light and he could man, he could
22:32
mimic Lee Robertson. 3 to thrive.
22:34
I'll tell you what, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday
22:36
night, you got 3 to thrive. He could just say it perfectly,
22:39
just like Lee Robertson. Lee had him come in and preach a
22:42
lot. And so I had a lot of those SEC
22:46
third hand stories of Lee Robertson while I was in Bible
22:49
college, but never, never was around him, never knew him in
22:53
that way, just always heard stories.
22:55
And I know you've got some stuff, so we're going to share
22:58
some things today and I hope you enjoy it.
23:01
Right. And like I said, we're not going
23:02
to just talk about the college. We're going to look at his
23:06
influence through the South White Baptist Fellowship and
23:09
ultimately what led the Tennessee Temples closure, which
23:14
my pastor growing up and my my youth pastor growing up
23:20
graduated from Tennessee Temple. OK, yeah, I'm going to read a
23:26
portion here of our show notes. I found this this past week as
23:33
we were studying and and getting ready for this episode said that
23:38
the we're rolling at the tie in from J Frank Norris to Lee
23:43
Robertson and what that looks like as we walk through this.
23:48
It says as the national movement of the IFP return to a biblical
23:52
model, in their opinion, the group began a natural
23:55
fragmentation due to the varying doctrine and dogma of the
23:59
various denominations. Even among the independent
24:02
Baptist, there was a great division.
24:04
You have the Southern Baptist and the American Northern
24:07
Baptist that had began to split in the SBC and this is where the
24:12
began to talk about it says the Baptist had their split long
24:16
ago, mainly over slavery, which was the Northern and Southern
24:19
Baptist Convention. J Frank Norris as he left the
24:23
convention, he was an SBC guy. You can go back and check out
24:26
some of our earlier works. He started what was called the
24:29
BBF, the Baptist, the Bible, Baptist Fellowship, Bob Keacham.
24:34
He started the garb. The General Association of
24:35
Regular Baptist. Myron Cedarholm started the CBA
24:40
and Lee Robertson started what was called the South Wide
24:43
Baptist Fellowship. Jack Howells wrote in his book
24:46
that he was at 75% SBF S Wide Baptist Fellowship and 25% BBF
24:53
the Bible Baptist Fellowship under J Frank Norris.
24:56
John Rice was the one that came in and we talked about John R
24:59
Rice on some of our previous episodes as well and he bridged
25:02
the gap among these Baptist groups of non denominational
25:06
fundamentalists. Billy Graham went a step further
25:09
and was calling for all these groups to unite once again in
25:13
citywide campaigns. This was whole Billy Graham's
25:16
whole thing when his he was doing going through that among
25:20
the Southern Baptist, there were the key players and you may not
25:23
know this, but these key players led to the modern movement.
25:27
So J Frank Norris, Jack House and Lee Robertson were all part
25:30
of the Southern Baptist Convention.
25:32
They're all pastoring SPC churches and all three of them
25:35
had gotten kicked out of the SBC because of various different
25:39
things. J Frank Norris was love the
25:41
convention and got kicked out because he did not agree with
25:46
the way the funds were. Jack Howes and Lee Robertson did
25:50
not fund and did not give to the convention.
25:53
So therefore they voted to dismember them during their
25:57
times. All three of them, they were
26:00
voted out by their not for their own choices to participate in
26:04
the in the SBC program. What this eventually led to was
26:08
demoralizing for each of these leaders.
26:10
Lee Robertson would go on to start his own fellowship of
26:13
churches, the South White Baptist Fellowship that we're
26:15
going to talk about later. Jack Howes seemed to harbor
26:18
resentment. And again, this is the article
26:20
that I'm reading. I didn't know Jack Howes.
26:22
Jack Howes seemed to harbor resentment toward the SBC and
26:25
would not claim to ever have started another denomination or
26:29
fellowship. Lee Robertson had already built
26:31
the largest Sunday school in the world.
26:34
And then I read this by one author in one of my studies.
26:37
He said that if Jack Howes or Lee Robertson were alive today
26:41
and they were going into ministry to an SBC church, he
26:44
believed they would not have left the SBC because it's more
26:48
conservative now than it was then.
26:51
This was by James Wigton on page 233 of Lee Robertson, Always
26:56
about his father's business. Now, Brad, I understand that
26:58
you've had some experience with Lee Robertson.
27:00
There's a book that you've got and some time with Camp Joy.
27:04
We'll turn this over to you for this moment as we begin jumping
27:06
through this before we get into the early life of Lee Robertson.
27:11
Yeah, like I said, I, I, Lee Robertson indirectly influenced
27:17
my upbringing in, in, in, I would say in a good way, both my
27:22
pastor growing up and my youth pastor growing up, both are
27:28
Tennessee Temple graduates, spoke very highly of Lee
27:32
Robertson. In fact, that I've, when I went
27:34
to House of Anderson, I heard Lee Robertson preach.
27:40
We started a camp at our church called Camp Joy and the reason
27:47
why is because of, you know, Lee Robertson started a camp called
27:52
Camp Joy and I want to read the history of Camp Joy real quick
27:55
because it it means a lot to so many people.
27:58
Camp Joy began in 1946. Doctor Lee Robertson, the pastor
28:03
of Highland Park Baptist Church, purchased 66 acres in Harrison,
28:07
TN at a government auction. The camp was named after his
28:11
baby daughter, Joy, who had died of crib death.
28:15
Doctor Robertson called Camp Joy, the place where boys and
28:18
girls begin to live. 10 weeks of summer camp was held each summer
28:22
from 1946 until the tornado destroyed much of the campus in
28:26
the spring of 2013. Over the years, thousands of
28:30
campers came from the tri-state area each summer free of charge
28:34
for one week of camp. The camp would alternate boys
28:37
and girls week. The camp presently is able to
28:40
host day camps and also host skateboarding Saturdays.
28:45
We hope to re establish overnight camping and retreats
28:47
in the future. And I'll tell you, we had a camp
28:51
joy at our church because of Lee Robertson and because of Camp
28:55
Joy. And it was some of the best
28:58
times that I had growing up. And I actually have a book here
29:02
in my office, Lee Robertson wrote, it's called Preaching to
29:07
America. And what Lee Robertson did is
29:11
that course, this is a collection of sermons that he
29:15
that he wrote on the country. But what he did is he went to
29:19
all of his alumni's churches, all the people that have
29:24
graduated from Tennessee Temple. He went to all of his all of
29:28
those churches, all of his graduate churches.
29:31
And you can look in the back of the book and it's got years and
29:36
under each year is the city and state that he went to and on
29:42
page, if you have the book preaching to America on page 211
29:46
and I've got it highlighted here, it says McComb, Ms. and
29:50
that is is the church that I grew up in.
29:53
And what I want to do is I want to read the preface and
29:56
introduction of this book, the very brief with a written by Lee
30:01
Robertson himself. And so this is the preface of
30:04
the book. I have two purposes in my entire
30:07
ministry of 71 years. My first purpose has been to win
30:12
souls. Without Christ, men are lost and
30:15
held down. I've wanted to tell them that
30:17
the only way of salvation is trusting in the Lord Jesus
30:20
Christ as their Savior. As a result, I have had the joy
30:24
of seeing thousands say. The second purpose of my
30:27
ministry has been to help Christians grow in grace and
30:30
become mature, worthwhile servants of our Lord.
30:34
In my passwords, I have watched many babes in Christ become
30:37
useful, happy Christians. In addition to the work of
30:41
Highland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga, we established
30:44
Tennessee Temple Schools in 1946 for the purpose of teaching and
30:48
training men and women to be useful servants of the Lord.
30:52
In my ministry in hundreds of churches in all parts of America
30:56
and in many foreign lands, I have maintained my dual purpose,
31:00
to win souls and to train Christians for useful service.
31:04
And the introduction? Just a couple paragraphs since I
31:07
was 18 years old, timid and fearful when I preached my first
31:11
sermon in a small country church outside of Jeffersontown, KY.
31:15
I typed the message on green typing paper and had planned to
31:19
read it, but a strong breeze through an open window scattered
31:23
the pages all over the floor of the little Chapel.
31:26
I was left with only the Bible before me.
31:29
I struggled through the first few sentences and then quickly
31:32
pronounced the benediction That was the beginning 71 years ago.
31:38
My heart is overwhelmed with gratitude for the blessings God
31:41
of God throughout all these years.
31:43
I pray that the message of this book will challenge, bless and
31:47
encourage many hearts. You know, James, I've got a
31:49
special place in Lee Robertson because of my upbringing.
31:53
I was so thankful that when I went to House Anderson, I was
31:56
able to sit under his preaching. I remember this one.
31:59
You know, he's very old fashioned, Lee Robertson.
32:02
He carried A briefcase with all of his sermons in there.
32:06
And I remember we were honoring him one day at Hiles and they
32:10
gave him a digital Bible, you know, a little handheld digital
32:15
Bible. And he just shook his head no.
32:18
He was just like, I don't like this.
32:20
Like the whole time they were giving him the digital Bible, he
32:23
was just shaking his head like he did not approve.
32:26
And I remember it wasn't long after that somebody stole his
32:29
briefcase with all of his, all of his sermons in it.
32:32
And he was so distraught after that years and years of his life
32:37
had was taken away. But but I, I, I, I did respect
32:41
Lee Robertson. I looked and I definitely looked
32:44
up to him. Yeah, absolutely.
32:45
I think it's it's great. That's one of the things, you
32:48
know, there there wasn't a scandal that we could find for
32:50
TTU or any type of of, you know, heart.
32:54
We'll talk about later. He was more of the soft
32:57
separatist. He was the guy that that didn't
32:59
call out guys like the Tony Hudson and Jack Howes that would
33:03
call out guys. He he was more of the hey, let's
33:05
come together for a belief and for for unity.
33:09
And so we'll see some of that, but we started talking about his
33:12
early life. So let's jump into sort of going
33:16
back before Tennessee Temple, before Highland Park, the man
33:20
behind it all, before he was Doctor Lee Robertson and just
33:24
young Lee Robertson. Brett, he wasn't exactly a big
33:28
city preacher. What was he?
33:30
What? Where was he at?
33:31
No, it wasn't big city at all. Lee Robertson was born in 19 O 9
33:35
in rural Indiana and actually grew up on a farm.
33:40
His early years were marked by hard work, long days and a
33:43
simple lifestyle. And it's just kind of a world
33:46
away from the massive ministry that one day he would be over
33:51
and would lead. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of
33:54
Billy Graham and some of these guys who just worked on the farm
33:58
and just lots of rural life and just the upbringing they had.
34:03
How? How did that farm upbringing
34:05
shape him in his life? Well, you know, the, the
34:09
discipline, the work ethic, the sense of responsibility.
34:12
He young, he learned as a boy. You could just see that carry
34:16
through his whole life. I mean, another thing happened
34:19
early on. He showed a real gift for music.
34:22
And before he was known as a preacher, was actually known as
34:26
a singer. Yeah.
34:27
Absolutely. He was involved in church music
34:29
from a young age. He actually opened the doors.
34:32
You may not know this, Brett, but he actually got an offer to
34:35
sing and travel with a group. And he turned it down because he
34:39
said it would interfere with his public speaking, because he knew
34:43
he was called to preach. And so but he turned that down
34:46
and, and, and chose to go in that way.
34:48
I, I don't have a singing voice, but I have to leave music here.
34:51
And so, yeah, I I could definitely understand that.
34:56
Right. His faith became personal when
34:59
he committed his life to Christ. Not long after that, he since
35:02
God calling him to preach, he decided to pursue formal
35:05
Christian education. You know, that was a big step
35:09
for a farm kid, James. Yeah, absolutely.
35:12
And you know, as he was going through that training early in
35:17
his life, he he had pastored a couple of small churches and
35:20
then the the early call to come set the foundation for him to be
35:26
at Highland Park and eventually the creation of Tennessee Temple
35:29
University and the network of ministries that followed that to
35:33
the best of my knowledge. And the way I could see this is
35:37
I believe that Tennessee Temple was actually called Southeastern
35:40
first, and that was the the the Southern Baptist Institute there
35:44
that he had started. And then they later changed it
35:47
to TTU, Tennessee Temple College and then university.
35:52
And I believe around 4648 is when they left the convention or
35:56
when he was disbanded from the convention.
35:59
And So what happened is, is now he's in Highland Park Baptist
36:03
Church. He became the pastor there in
36:05
1942. And to, to say it lightly, this
36:10
wasn't a powerhouse church. This wasn't a church that was
36:14
bringing in thousands and thousands of people, was it
36:16
Brett? No, it was a it was a struggling
36:19
church in Chattanooga, TN with fewer than 200 members.
36:24
But Brother Robertson had a vision, and he and organization
36:28
and under his leadership, the church just kind of exploded in
36:32
growth. Yeah, it wasn't just a Sunday
36:35
preaching. He began to build a ministry
36:38
ecosystem, a way that's and, and, and bring people in.
36:43
Exactly. I mean Sunday school, bus
36:46
ministries, music programs, evangelistic outreach.
36:49
Highland Park became one of the largest churches in the South,
36:53
drawing thousands every week. Yeah, Robertson, he said.
36:57
The sights far beyond just a big congregation.
37:00
He wanted a place where he could begin training the next
37:03
generation of pastors, missionaries, and even Christian
37:06
workers. He he, he wanted to, to have
37:09
this platform to be able to expand his reach and be able to
37:13
expand the gospel in ways that we would never see other than
37:18
what we would see as like a House of Anderson or something.
37:21
Which eventually led him to directly founding the College
37:25
Tennessee Temple University in 1946.
37:29
Now, DTU started small, but it quickly became a hub for
37:32
conservative Baptist training, and its influence spread
37:36
nationally through graduates who went out into the ministry.
37:39
And as we just see this book that I read and you go through
37:44
all these different churches where he went to the churches of
37:48
his graduates, these searches are spread out all over the
37:52
country. And then what will we begin to
37:55
see here is now there's a church that is bringing in hundreds and
38:02
hundreds and thousands of people, very large.
38:05
I believe one number was 56,000 people at one time were coming
38:09
to the church, bringing in just explosive growth with everything
38:13
that was going on. The college has now started and
38:17
it's doing well. We're seeing great things
38:19
happen. And so naturally this leads to
38:21
sort of its own little mini denomination and they called it
38:24
the South Wide Baptist fellowship.
38:27
That was the Bible Baptist Fellowship.
38:29
And so we're, hey, that was sort of middle of the range.
38:31
J Frank Norris had taken that and it was sort of in the north,
38:35
Hey, let's do something in the South with S Wide Baptist
38:37
Fellowship. And that started in 1956, ten
38:40
years after the college was founded.
38:42
And it started right there at Highland Park.
38:44
Baptist Church, right? Robertson, along with John R
38:48
Rice, gathered churches that shared a fundamentalist
38:52
separatist vision. He gave pastors a network for
38:55
support and accountability. He he was kind of the king of
38:58
soft separatism in the IFB movement.
39:01
Everything was kept positive and upbeat.
39:03
Note you, you mentioned earlier a lot of these other ICE and
39:08
Jack Howe and some of these other guys, they were loud.
39:11
They would, you know, call you out what wasn't Lee Robertson
39:15
style at all. Yeah.
39:17
If you remember back in our previous works of J Frank Norris
39:20
and John Rice, they work together and they did a lot of
39:23
things together, but there was a break in their relationship.
39:28
They began writing about each other and crucifying each other
39:31
in their their periodicals. And So what happened was, is J
39:36
Frank Norris and John Rice when that division happened.
39:39
Now John Rice begins to team up with Lee Robertson and they
39:42
formed this this break of the Bible Baptist Fellowship, the
39:45
South Wide Baptist Fellowship, and it became a different IFB
39:49
circle. It was less about personality
39:52
cults. Most of these were, hey, let's
39:55
bring the biggest guys in that's got the biggest followings in
39:58
and let's give them the platform and they're going to build this
40:02
entity around who they are. But it was more about a shared
40:05
vision of church collaboration. They really took what I believe
40:10
as I've been doing this study more of the SBC mindset and
40:14
model of, hey, let's get these these associations together.
40:17
Let's get these Baptist state conventions together and let's
40:21
let some guys collaborate on what's going on and let's do it
40:25
less about big time preacher people.
40:29
A couple of years ago we were, I believe it was California.
40:32
They did the pastors Conference and the guy got up and he said I
40:36
just want to do a pastor's conference where everyone I
40:39
bring up is just a no name by vocational guy.
40:42
And he said they told me that no one's going to come to this if I
40:45
do this. It's got to be the big name
40:46
guys. And that year was probably one
40:49
of the outside of this. Last year of the pastor's
40:51
conference was probably one of those years that blessed my soul
40:54
more than any other one. Because these are just random
40:57
guys that you've never heard of that are speaking at the
41:00
National Platform. And they, they could relate.
41:03
They could tell me, hey, I know what it's like to have a church
41:06
member coming to my office and just break down because their
41:08
marriage isn't going well or they've got a kid that's, that's
41:11
living in sin. Like these are, these are
41:13
everyday people, everyday pastors that are dealing with
41:15
the same thing we are. And that's what Southwest
41:17
Baptist Fellowship was about. It was this church collaboration
41:21
of shared vision. And it also created a pipeline
41:25
of students and bastards for Temple, helping college thrive
41:30
for decades. Really.
41:32
Yeah, absolutely. They used it as a way to bring
41:35
in college pastors and presidents and different things.
41:38
So the challenges in the decline because we know that if you know
41:42
anything about South Wide Baptist Fellowship and Island
41:45
Park Baptist Church, neither one of them are around anymore
41:47
today. And So what the the school with
41:53
such a great legacy and such a a huge platform, they eventually
41:57
faced some challenges. Brett, what are some of those
41:59
challenges? Well, after Robertson retired in
42:02
1983, Tennessee Temple experienced some leadership
42:06
transitions and there were some alumni that felt that the
42:10
leaders that came up didn't fully maintain the original
42:14
mission and identity of the of the of the school.
42:18
Absolutely right. We we've got to go further to
42:20
the right. We got to go further, more
42:23
conservative. If, if Lee Robertson said we
42:26
can't do these three things, well, we've got to add three
42:28
more to these things, right? That's.
42:29
How? Legalism works.
42:31
You got to add more and add more and add more.
42:33
Well, what happened was is they also had some financial
42:35
struggles that began to compound and become have problems.
42:39
They did a direct mail campaign once they aimed to raise
42:43
$2,000,000. Now that's a big goal,
42:45
$2,000,000. This statistic here blew my mind
42:49
when I read this and I I saw this, this $2,000,000 campaign
42:53
to raise money for the college and the church to continue what
42:56
they were doing. It yielded a grand total of
42:59
$65,000. That's pretty.
43:03
That's pretty low, Brett. Exactly.
43:05
Maybe in its heyday it could have done that, but 65,000 is a
43:08
low number. But not only that, enrollment
43:11
plummeted. You know, there were 4000
43:13
students in the early 80s, and by 2013, attendance had dropped
43:18
down to 400 and attempts to relocate your new campus fell
43:23
through because once again, they couldn't raise the necessary
43:26
funds. Yeah, now we've got also got the
43:30
broader cultural and theological sifts.
43:32
The IFB world was changing and is always changing.
43:36
These younger generations, they weren't as attracted to the
43:39
TTTTTUS strict or traditionalist approach.
43:45
They were looking for some, some linear, less rigid in that area.
43:51
I see this even today. We're looking at my home church.
43:54
You know, it's, it's declining and struggling because people
43:57
are just not looking for that rigid legalism anymore in these
44:01
young families. Exactly.
44:03
And by 2015, the decision was made to merge with Piedmont
44:07
International University, now Carolina University.
44:11
So TTU closes doors after nearly 70 years.
44:16
Yeah. Now, Brett, I've got some
44:17
connections with Piedmont University and Carolina
44:21
University. It's actually just right down
44:23
the street from my church, about 30 or 40 minutes away.
44:27
They're actually doing some pretty big things right now with
44:29
Carolina University. And so I believe TTU grads can
44:32
have some benefits of that. But Piedmont University used to
44:36
be a massive powerhouse. They went through some struggles
44:39
of Internet identity and just Internet national stuff.
44:42
But now they've rebranded. They've bought a massive
44:45
building, college dormitory. It's doing really great.
44:48
But what I wanted to bring back to and the reason why I read
44:51
that opening, if you stuck with us this long is in 2008 Highland
44:56
Park Baptist Church sort of went back to his roots after some 50
45:00
some years of being away from the SBC, they actually became an
45:04
SBC church again. And this is part of leading to
45:08
the decline. Now they've re bought back into
45:12
the SBC mindset. So now all these IFP people that
45:15
they were training were coming and they were like, hey, you
45:18
guys have changed. Wouldn't really Lee Robertson
45:20
really didn't change a lot of who he was from the SBC error.
45:24
The convention had just become more conservative.
45:28
In 2013, they changed the name of the Church of the Highlands.
45:33
They dropped the SBC title. They became a non denominational
45:36
church. They sold their property.
45:38
They moved to a different location.
45:41
Now Scott McCurdy is the pastor. He is ATTU alumni and he's also
45:46
a Word of Life alumni. And we're going to have on in a
45:50
couple next week, an alumni of TTU.
45:55
You may have heard of him. His name is JC Gross and he's
45:58
going to come on and share his time and story with us then.
46:01
But looking back, Brett, what do you think we take away from
46:06
Robertson and TTU? Well, they built the model of
46:09
integrated church college ministry that influenced
46:12
generations, influenced a lot of people.
46:16
But it's also a reminder that leadership, culture and
46:18
financial sustainability are absolutely critical.
46:22
These are things we can't overlook.
46:25
Yeah, You know, even though TT is gone, you can look around and
46:30
you can see, I mean, even in in our world and our where, where
46:34
we're at the alumni network, the South Wide Baptist Fellowship,
46:37
the ministries that remain that it that it began inspired and
46:41
remains even lasting legacies. I mean, even that Carolina
46:45
University would bring in TTU because of that alumni network.
46:49
It's great. And, and you begin to even see
46:53
the influence of Lee Robertson that still has massive influence
46:56
on people around. Listen, all of I talk to
47:00
Southern Maptist pastors all the time that don't know anything
47:03
about independent Fundamental Baptists.
47:05
They don't know anything about Jack House.
47:07
A lot of them do, but most of them don't.
47:10
But they know Lee Robertson and they know Tennessee Temple.
47:14
So that just goes to show you how much influence that they did
47:18
have. And you know, you know, this,
47:20
this, this is a story of vision, influence and the inevitability
47:24
of change. And Lee Robertson, he made an
47:28
impact. I know he made an impact on my
47:29
life indirectly. And you know, that's just kind
47:35
of the, it's so interesting to just follow the story through
47:38
the years. And you've got this great man,
47:42
you got this great church, you got this great school.
47:45
And, and, and I, and I say great as in they've had a lot of
47:48
influence over the years. Of course, we don't want to
47:52
promote the legalistic standards and whatnot.
47:56
But Lee Robertson, he was a horse of a different color.
47:59
He wasn't like the other guys. And I can I can confidently say
48:03
that he wasn't. Go ahead.
48:07
Yeah, Even what you're saying was, I mean, he, he built
48:11
through his vision and through his just legacy that he had.
48:16
I mean, before Jack Howes had the largest Sunday school book
48:19
written about him by Stenzer, Lee Robertson had the largest
48:23
Sunday school in America at one point in America, Lee Robertson
48:26
had the largest church in America according to historical
48:28
records that we found. And so that, I mean, he, he had
48:32
a big impact. Now 40 years at one church is
48:37
another huge impact. And that's a, and then after 40
48:41
years there, he preaches on the road as an evangelist for 30 or
48:45
40 years. I mean, he, he's taking his
48:48
message and, and hopefully, you know, he left at the right time
48:51
and, and there were, should have been some things that were set
48:53
up, but unfortunately it didn't. And now it's no longer there.
48:57
The Church of the Highlands is there and, and they're, they're
49:01
doing some things there with Scott McCurdy, but that that's
49:04
what we've got today for you. Looking forward, like I said,
49:07
next week we'll have JC Groves coming on and talk about his
49:12
time at TTU and his time as Lee Robertson's personal driver and
49:16
assistant. If you've not heard his back
49:19
story and his time, we've we've interviewed him a couple of
49:22
times so you can go back and listen to those episodes, but
49:26
we're excited about having him come on.
49:28
And then the week after that, Brett, we're having our final of
49:32
the fundamental footprints. We're going to be talking
49:35
through 4 main people that were big time IP guys.
49:40
And then we've got a guy coming on that was a direct influence
49:44
under Lester Roloff and Peter Ruckman.
49:48
He had his foot in both sides of that and he's going to come on
49:52
and share his time. He was one of the roll off home
49:54
directors. I'm excited about that interview
49:57
with him. And then Brett, we're going to
50:00
go into the future of fundamentalism.
50:02
I'm excited about this. Oh man, when we've got an
50:05
interview in the chamber, it's burning a hole.
50:09
We're ready to post it, but we got to wait, man.
50:12
You're going to be excited to hear this interview.
50:15
Yeah, Brett keeps asking me, hey, is it ready?
50:16
Can we go ahead and put it, we're getting there and we'll
50:21
let you know about that. But future fundamentalism, we're
50:24
going to go through some guys that are currently on the scene
50:28
in fundamentalism and and then we're going to jump back to
50:32
after that, the camp meeting of fundamentalism and talk through
50:35
some camp meeting. And hopefully that'll end our
50:38
fundamentalism side of it. Got some good things planned for
50:42
next year that were already got in the chamber that we're
50:44
working on talking about a couple of different things.
50:47
And so hopefully this has been a blessing to you.
50:51
Hopefully you've enjoyed this. As always, go and leave a rating
50:54
in review. Share this if it's helped you.
50:57
And so hopefully until next time you enjoy what we've put out and
51:03
to God be the glory. Great things he has done.
51:08
Found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing,
51:14
and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning.
51:18
It has no ending. I found that second chance.
51:22
Found my best friend. Thanks for listening to the Four
51:41
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
51:44
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
51:47
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
51:51
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.