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The Wisdom Light Murder: Unraveling the Oak Grove Jane Doe · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:00
Anna was arrested after the incident, but she was not to be easily silenced, which
0:08
is so annoying these hysterical women.
0:12
"Oh, keep your mouth shut."
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"Mmm, far from it, she sued for alienation of affections."
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"Whew, wow."
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The scandal rocked the Portland area, particularly when Anna won her case.
0:29
"Hi, Cassie."
0:39
"Hi, Caitlyn."
0:40
"Hi, creepy people."
0:42
"Hello!"
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"Hello!"
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"This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, and all
0:51
things spooky in the Pacific Northwest.
0:54
The PNW.
0:55
"If you're nasty."
0:56
"Which we assume you are, because here you are, because we are."
1:00
"Yeah, there you go.
1:01
You're here.
1:02
That's that."
1:03
"We also do a terror reading at the end of every episode for just a little bit of deeper
1:10
insight into whatever we're talking about for that day, and have a little fun.
1:17
What do we call it?
1:19
Why am I blanking all of a sudden immediately when we start?
1:24
"I don't know."
1:25
“A palette cleanser."
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"Oh, yes.
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I have no idea."
1:29
Even though we end up talking about whatever was in the case, I still feel like it's a little
1:34
bit of a happy ending for something that might not have such a happy ending.
1:39
Want to kill in the episodes?
1:41
"Oh, yeah, because all of yours are so happy.
1:45
The lampras are happy.
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They're wide teeth grin.
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Is that a thing?
1:50
Wide teeth grin?
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That's not a thing."
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"There's no other way to describe it."
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Wide teeth.
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Yeah.
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They're wide toothy grin.
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"Yeah, me, that's what I was thinking.
2:00
Toothy."
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"Toothy."
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"It is toothy, which is not okay."
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"I'm going to bring it up every episode from now until the end of time."
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"Okay, great.
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I can't stop talking about it."
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"Love that for us."
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"Oh boy."
2:15
"Okay."
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"All right, I'll shut up."
2:20
"Well, I feel like you were talking about in the tarot portion of that episode about how,
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you know, we're just going to try to keep it like sort of Christmassy and maybe lighter.
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And that's a lie because..."
2:35
"Someone didn't get the memo."
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"Yeah."
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"Okay, not much of a sagoo into this, but..."
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"I can keep stalling if you want me to."
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"No, I think it's better.
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We just ripped the bandaid.
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Okay.
2:47
All right.
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"All right, our case today is as I have foretold, it's not bright and cheery."
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"I'm from Brittany."
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"I need to kind of go with Christmas.
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I mean, not everything is light and cherry for everybody, obviously.
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So..."
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"Yeah.
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And see, that's what I was trying to do with this here."
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"I've seen a balance, new to represent all facets of life."
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"You know?"
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"This is definitely a facet of life, so here we go."
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In Oak Grove, Oregon, a suburb of Portland, so named for the many oak trees in the area.
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"Oh, yes."
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Something very unusual started happening in 1946.
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"That was a long time ago."
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"Yeah.
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Remember how we sort of talked about that like World War II is my Roman Empire?"
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"Yeah."
3:46
"Yeah."
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"I think maybe that was just kind of rolling around in the back of my brain space because 1946
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is like the year after the war officially ended."
3:58
"Alaska wasn't even a state, yeah."
4:00
"That's true."
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"Yeah, we just learned that again. Body parts began surfacing over a series of months."
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"Where's your mug that says that'll escalated it quickly?"
4:12
"That escalated quickly."
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"Yeah."
4:14
"Oh."
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"It's pretty on brand for today."
4:17
"It really is."
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"Yeah."
4:19
"Thanks, Andrea."
4:20
"Yeah, thank you."
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The first of which was found near the wisdom light mortgage on April 12 in a whirling
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eddie.
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A group of people stumbled upon the torso of a white female as they walked along the shoreline
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of the Willamette.
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"What's a whirling neddie?"
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"whirling eddie."
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"Yeah, that's what I meant."
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"I think I have a little bit of a section in my notes to kind of cover that."
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"Like I want to think about that and not the other thing that you said that's fair."
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"Yeah, that's fair."
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"Just a torso is terrifying."
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"Yeah."
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"It's all terrifying, but."
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"It's pretty."
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"Yeah, I'd like to tell you that it gets better."
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"I'm gonna give so much work."
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"It reminds me of the movie 13 Ghosts because there's a ghost and that one that's like called
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the torso and it's like just a woman's torso like wrapped in plastic."
5:09
"Oh."
5:10
"Okay."
5:11
"Well."
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"It's like a walking terrifying."
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"Yeah, that sounds terrible.
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That's also interesting that you made that connection."
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"Oh, okay."
5:21
"I'll just get into it and then you'll see."
5:24
"Okay."
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"It was wrapped in burlap feedbacks and it was clear it had been weighted down by window
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sash weights that had been attached to the package."
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"Window sash weights."
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"Mm-hmm."
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"Okay."
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"Yeah, I'm not gonna really get into that."
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"But I can kind of just all-timey figure out what that means."
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"Yeah."
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"It's interesting, interesting choice."
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"Yeah, it is a choice.
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There's a lot of choice choices."
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"Yeah."
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"There were multiple articles of women's clothing found at the same time."
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Because of the location of the initial discovery, this case is sometimes referred to as the
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"Wisdom Light Murder."
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"Well, wisdom light sounds good."
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"Yeah, it does.
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Yeah."
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"The next day, two arms and a thigh were discovered."
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"Sorry."
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"Okay."
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"They were also wrapped in a similar manner."
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This was confusing to make sense of in my research and I couldn't figure out why the
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reporting about the second set of remains felt a little bit murky, but it's because initially
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the limbs that had surfaced were misidentified.
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So I kept reading articles that described various limbs being found in the second discovery.
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Some of them would say it was like two arms and a thigh.
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Some of them would say other limb, various combinations.
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Anyway, all of that is to say that initially the reporting was not completely accurate.
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"Okay."
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"I suppose depending on how the body is dismembered, it makes sense that it might require further
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examination to accurately determine the parts of the body."
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Because it's like, it's just a section and without more context.
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Like an arm maybe could look like a leg or vice versa.
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"We're like, yeah, thigh, just a thigh."
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"Yeah."
7:28
"Yeah."
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"I know."
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"The additional body parts were recovered about six miles away from the area where the initial
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discovery of the torso was."
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This time it was a group of five men out on a tugboat that provided a tip that led to
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the discovery.
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"Okay."
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"It is wild to me to see their full legal names imprint, along with actually many others
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who made the horrifying discoveries in the case.
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I just feel like these days, I think oftentimes people tend to be a bit more cautious about
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being tied to a story like this.
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Even if they've, of course, done nothing wrong, it's just like putting your name out there
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in connection with something that's like in the news.
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I just think like, I mean, that can draw people to you that you maybe don't want drawn to
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you.
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But they literally printed like the full names of like all of these different people
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associated with the case.
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"Wow."
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In terms of the discovery, I should say.
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I feel like now, too, you never know, like what kind of conspiracy theory of some podcaster
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is going to come up with to like try to tie you to the code.
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Exactly.
8:41
Yeah.
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Just putting your name out there in relation to a true crime story can bring so much
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undue scrutiny upon literally anyone.
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So that was kind of wild.
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There was like the old timeliness of it all.
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Apparently they had seen the package about 30 days prior initially.
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It wasn't until they heard about the torso being recovered nearby by some fisherman that
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they decided to reach out to authorities.
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So they saw this package that would later be recovered and was determined to be human
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remains and they didn't make the connection that like this is something we should look
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into or like have like reported to the authorities until somebody else found that initial set
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of remains.
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Oh, I know.
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Did they just leave it there?
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Yeah, I mean, they just were like, oh, it's just basically, you know, trash or, you know,
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something that's been tossed.
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Oh, I thought it was a package.
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Of some sort.
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Yeah.
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I know.
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Isn't that?
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That just is so oaky.
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Yeah.
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Like what's in the box?
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What's in the exactly?
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Oh, my God.
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In an article published by the Oregon Statesman on April 14, 1946, it was said that the sheriff
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intended to begin dragging the river.
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He had apparently indicated some level of frustration already in the case saying, we're
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kind of stymied.
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So notably, he also shared that the hands had been removed from the arms.
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Oh, so I think that's a detail that could have also led to some of the confusion about
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what parts of the victim exactly had been recovered.
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Yeah.
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Because again, like if there's not like a foot or a hand, you know what I mean?
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It's like as a layman and probably someone who's not like, you know, if you discover this,
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you're not like inspecting the shit.
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Yeah.
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To see what it is.
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Yeah.
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Exactly.
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You're just like, oh my God, that's part of a human body and like trying to do everything
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you can to put that probably out of your mind.
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Yeah.
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So I think that's maybe part of it.
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By July of 1946, a second lie was found.
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This time closer to Oregon City.
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Well clothing items were also found in the Clackamas River that were believed may have
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belonged to the Jane Doe slowly emerging piece by piece, which is both literal and sort
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of obviously it's a curative.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, for anyone that's not local and I feel like this is something that could be
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confusing like the Clackamas and the Willamette are two separate bodies of water.
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So it might seem like why would they connect to these?
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That's what I was thinking.
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Yeah.
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But they do technically have a place where they intersect and where like things could kind
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of float from one to the other.
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Okay.
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Given kind of like weather patterns and like the flow of water, it did sort of help them
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to determine like, oh, this kind of the pathway.
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I just, it's so, I don't know, it really freaks me out to think about that.
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That's just something that's like in this body of water where obviously people are discovering
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these things like just out on a morning walk or like out on their fishing boat like.
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It's still interesting though that they just, they connected just clothing back to the
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other remains.
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It's like how many pieces of clothing are like in all of the rivers, you know?
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Yeah.
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Well, and I would think probably at any given time there's, you know, if you're finding
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part of like a shirt like that's wrapping up like one of the pieces of remains and then
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what appears to be like maybe the other half of the shirt.
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That sort of thing.
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Also, I would think in 1946.
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Really a lot less things just like popping up out of the river in general.
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A lot less pollution.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I mean, just speaking super broadly, like just really over generalizing here, but
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October 1946.
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Finally, the victim's head was recovered.
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No, I mean, I'm glad it was recovered.
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Found near the bank of the Willamette by Mr. and Mrs. Roy Clutter of Oak Grove reportedly
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without the deceased's eyes.
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I mean, you have to think about though, like the initial discovery dates back like several
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months.
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Yeah.
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So even water still is it still found in water?
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We're going to get to that.
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It was found near the bank of the Willamette, but we're going to get to because it is really
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interesting.
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You would expect some of these remains to have had like different levels of sort of decomposition
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or deterioration.
14:00
Yeah.
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So that also is something else that like kind of informs us about like what are the conditions
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of how this body is being disposed of and you know, what maybe what else does that tell
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us about the case?
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Fortunately, or unfortunately.
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I have my notes, which is only about the most ghoulish and sinister way I could imagine
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making the discovery to be honest.
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Yeah.
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Holds true.
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It appeared to be wrapped in pieces of a tan shirt and had also been weighed down by
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window sash weights.
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So somebody's window sash is just out there blowing in the wind.
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Yeah.
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I mean, if the indoors is windy, I don't know.
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Sashes are on the inside, right?
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I presume so.
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Yes.
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And this is like presumably like the same body parts because they're found in the same manner,
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right?
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Like they just automatically know that it's connected.
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I think it's tricky because without obviously they're not able to identify, you know, by DNA
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that this is the same person.
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I think it goes back to sort of the old timeliness of it all that we don't have like in 1946.
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Presumably, we don't have multiple dismembered bodies that are popping up in the Willamette.
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I think it's a fair question, depending on the city and that period of time.
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I would think like clearly the same person did it not necessarily that it, I mean, it could
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be a different person's body parts.
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I do think that's, I think that's fair.
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I, I would argue that probably because we are not finding the complete body of anyone,
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victim or victims, I think it's reasonable enough for them to have assumed that probably
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this is the same victim, but I do think that is also, it's indicative of the time where
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nobody understood the concept or was familiar with the term like serial killer.
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Right.
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So I think that's a really good point.
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I didn't really directly address that in my notes because I think so much of the kind
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of conversation around this case is just based on the assumption that yes, it's all the
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same body, but I think that's actually, I mean, it's valid to kind of question that.
16:45
Yeah.
16:46
I thought so.
16:47
Yeah.
16:48
I mean, no, it's, it's fair.
16:49
I think coming at it from a totally different lens in a modern day, like those are the types
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of things that it's like you have to kind of consider.
17:00
I don't know the will ever know.
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Oh, the head was also found in close proximity to where the torso had been located roughly
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six miles away from the surely now infamous whirling Eddie.
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It's basically just kind of a weird current of water that it looks like a little like underwater
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cyclone a little bit.
17:25
Okay.
17:26
Yeah.
17:27
That's all it is.
17:28
I like that.
17:29
Yeah.
17:30
It's cute, but sweet.
17:31
Yeah.
17:32
Yeah.
17:33
In a different context, you know, maybe kind of whimsical, but, you know, I did try looking
17:42
to see if there's like a particular spot where we could like triangulate like, oh, where
17:47
is this?
17:48
You know, like is this whirling Eddie like is that something that like is it special?
17:53
Right.
17:54
Is that is that a constant?
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Does that change?
17:56
Like, where is it?
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Can I go visit it?
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I didn't have a lot of success there.
18:01
Isn't there some sort of something in the water that like swirls and like goes down
18:07
and they don't like know where it goes to?
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I'm probably not asking the right person.
18:11
I don't know.
18:12
Oh, yeah.
18:13
I think it's some sort of like something somewhere.
18:16
I'll look into it.
18:18
Okay.
18:19
Maybe report that.
18:20
Y'all report back to you guys.
18:21
Oh my God.
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The head also revealed some more identifying features of the Jane Doe.
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The deceased had an upper denture, but still had her mendicular or lower jaw, which told
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investigators a little bit more about her background.
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So the lower jaw where she still had her, you know, natural dentition, there was a not
18:45
an insignificant amount of other dental work.
18:49
So this is someone who's had like a lot of dental work.
18:52
Okay.
18:53
Upper denture, she has dental work that's been done in the lower jaw.
18:58
In certain time periods and geographic areas, this of course can be like a really, it's
19:06
kind of low hanging fruit.
19:07
It's an indicator of the decedent socio economic status.
19:13
Let's go say them of that money.
19:15
Right.
19:16
That's sort of the implication.
19:17
Mainly that they were able to afford dental work, which certainly was far less common
19:22
at this point in history.
19:25
And you know, keep in mind that 1946 is roughly 80 years ago, dental technology and education
19:32
along with social programs have come like a very long way.
19:36
Thankfully.
19:37
So now to find somebody who has dental work in their mouth may not be like, ah, the, you
19:44
know, the smoking gun, as it were.
19:46
But at that point, it's like not everybody can afford to have dental work done.
19:50
Right.
19:51
But now, I mean, yeah, very much so.
19:55
But just in terms of like the, you know, the particular type of treatment and things like
20:01
that can be very informative to investigators.
20:04
The corner believed she may have been dismembered with a saw, a gruesome and grueling task.
20:12
It was noted it was a pretty neat job, if not exactly expert or overly precise.
20:19
Okay.
20:21
So basically our take away sort of in that respect is that this is somebody, somebody who's
20:29
not necessarily like, you know, a surgeon, like a butcher could be.
20:34
Yeah, could be.
20:36
I would think a butcher probably would be more precise, but a butcher also isn't necessarily
20:42
doing what he's doing for a specific aesthetic.
20:46
Right.
20:47
So it's hard to say.
20:49
And again, it's one of those details that it's like it's slowly helping them to kind of
20:54
form opinions or, you know, figure out like what's the profile of this person potentially?
21:03
It was determined after her head was recovered that her cause of death was blunt force trauma.
21:09
Hmm.
21:10
Initially the corner thought the Jane Doe may have been in her teens or early 20s.
21:15
However, the estimate was later amended stating that it was believed the victim's age to be
21:20
closer to middle age somewhere in her 40s or 50s.
21:24
Right.
21:25
She had like a full denture.
21:27
Yeah.
21:28
So you can see where like certain parts of the body really do help.
21:33
Just to kind of get a clearer picture of who the victim was.
21:37
It's like you're getting more information about the victim and her potential killer kind
21:42
of at the same time.
21:44
The body was believed to have been in the water for 36 hours, which is interesting.
21:52
Interesting because it is a little bit murky in terms of like, okay, which parts of the
21:57
body are we talking about?
21:58
They're all discovered at different points of time.
22:00
Right.
22:01
So there is a lot of, I feel like sort of conversation around, does that mean these parts were being
22:08
released like one at a time?
22:11
Oh.
22:14
I don't feel like I have enough information to really be able to say like concretely.
22:26
It seems reasonable to assume that, you know, if they're being discovered months apart,
22:33
probably they're not all being released at the same time, but it's, I'm certainly not
22:39
going to say one way or the other conclusively.
22:45
Yeah.
22:46
I'll say that.
22:47
Because like if it's been in for 36 hours, versus months, that's going to be, yeah.
22:53
But I mean, also, I think a lot of determinations would be difficult to make with only individual
22:59
pieces of the body being discovered over a series of months.
23:04
I mean, particularly with the limitations of forensic science at the time.
23:08
So I feel a little bit skeptical about some of those things like the 36 hour time window
23:14
in particular, because I'm like, I just don't know that I agree or can feel confident that
23:23
they can really back that.
23:25
They can back that and say like that's accurate.
23:28
And we know this based on XYZ, if that makes sense.
23:32
It would be interesting to, if they were found like 36 hours after being like disposed of,
23:40
he would have to, or I say, he, the person he is doing the disposing, which is probably
23:45
a man and probably not a bear, would have to say.
23:50
It's like does he want them to be found?
23:53
Because if you're trying to hide a body, the likelihood of it being found 36 hours later.
23:59
Yeah, I mean, if you're releasing them into a river and presumably they're weighed down
24:04
as well.
24:05
Yeah, I don't know.
24:07
I would be really interested to hear sort of a more modern take on like the psychology behind,
24:14
you know, maybe what they believe the killer's motives or like what their method was, what
24:22
they were thinking.
24:24
It's so hard to say.
24:25
I know.
24:26
It's so hard to say.
24:27
It only gets harder.
24:30
Following the autopsy performed by Dr. Warren C. Hunter, which, that name, perfect.
24:37
The late growth, Jane Doe, it was believed had been roughly 5, 2 to 5, 4, 140 to 150 pounds
24:45
with graying brown hair, which is another interesting sort of aspect of the case.
24:52
Most of these were, the remains were recovered in various states of, yeah, I think you can
25:01
imagine.
25:02
It's not great.
25:03
So people did wonder how do we know the specificity of the hair color, the hair color and that it's
25:10
graying, but it's believed that there was probably some hair in the bundle.
25:15
I'll leave it at that.
25:16
We don't have to get too gruesome.
25:18
He was a pathologist himself, but this next bit it seems to have come from another specialist
25:25
examination.
25:27
In any case, it was also reportedly believed that a torch may have been used on her in some
25:33
form of torture, though it's not exactly clear from the available source materials, how
25:40
that conclusion was drawn exactly.
25:44
And it doesn't really appear in many of the news stories from the time that I could find.
25:51
So it's something that I came across in all of the different things that I read and listened
25:56
to and something that was reported on and that supposedly that was one of the conclusions
26:04
that he drew, no real explanation that I could find as to why.
26:11
So that's sort of mystifying.
26:14
How would they know why?
26:16
No, I'm saying why do they think that?
26:19
Oh, okay.
26:20
I was like, yeah, how would they know why he did that?
26:22
They don't know who did it.
26:24
Yeah, yeah.
26:25
I see.
26:26
No, that's disturbing.
26:28
It's pretty awful.
26:29
Yeah.
26:30
And we've heard about that in other cases that are just equally brutal.
26:35
So from a Medford Mail Tribune article dated April 14, 1946, one crank was arrested in a
26:45
pay booth as he telephoned police that he knew all about the mystery.
26:51
But state police said he was merely seeking publicity.
26:55
And I only included this just so that I could point out that people have apparently always
27:02
and probably always will be gross.
27:05
Yes.
27:06
What the fuck is a crank?
27:07
I think they were, it's like a term of the era kind of referring to someone who's like
27:13
Christmas with the cranks.
27:15
Yeah, just like that.
27:17
Christmas.
27:18
Yeah.
27:19
Okay, we're done.
27:20
Bye.
27:21
Okay.
27:22
In 2004, the case was reopened, but it's very much considered ice cold at this point.
27:29
In the year since the Oak Grove Jane Doe was discovered, evidence in this case has also
27:35
been lost, making it even more difficult to continue to investigate.
27:40
In the 40s?
27:41
Yeah, the 40s of it all.
27:44
According to authorities, it's unknown what's happened to the victims clothing, the sash
27:49
weights, that weighted the body down, or what happened to her remains.
27:55
No.
27:56
Oh, I know things happen, especially with records that are this dated, but how exactly
28:03
does one lose a jawbone and maxillary denture asking for a friend?
28:12
Well, and all the other pieces.
28:14
Yeah.
28:15
Yeah.
28:16
Like she hasn't been there enough that you can't even just like keep the body that you have
28:21
together.
28:22
Mm-hmm.
28:23
Yeah.
28:24
And I don't know what's better having her sit in a police station drawer or I mean, it's
28:29
not just a drawer, but yeah, asking for a friend.
28:36
I guess we'll call her Jane.
28:38
It has a much nicer ring than case numbers, four, six, dash, two, two, six, oh three, and six,
28:44
eight, dash, eight, oh seven, seven.
28:48
There are a number of cases that people have speculated over the years might be related
28:53
or might in fact be the Lake Grove Jane Doe.
28:59
There's actually several that I'm not even going to go into.
29:03
There are a number of other conspiracy theories out there.
29:06
I just think, well, I'm just going to get into it.
29:09
And I'll let you figure out why I think this one is worth talking about.
29:14
I want a full conspiracy report on Patreon.
29:17
Okay.
29:18
Perhaps she was the victim of an unknown serial killer.
29:23
It would be like one of the first, right?
29:26
I, well, not really.
29:29
Not really.
29:30
They just didn't know the term.
29:32
Jack the Ripper.
29:33
Oh yeah.
29:34
You know, yeah.
29:36
I didn't dig terribly deep on this one because it seems like it's not the most popular theory
29:41
and I have to imagine that's for good reason.
29:45
Also, I found another that true or not is a far more intriguing avenue to explore.
29:53
So let's talk about Anna.
29:56
Okay.
29:58
Anna Schrader, a Portland woman that worked as a police informant while also carrying on
30:04
an affair with a married police officer.
30:06
Oh shit.
30:07
Oh shit is correct.
30:10
William Brooening went missing in 1946.
30:16
Historical rumor has it that when he tried to call off the affair after tiring Ivana,
30:21
hounding him to leave his wife, there was a physical altercation where a gun was involved.
30:28
Who had the gun?
30:32
In any case, Anna walked away from their violent encounter with a couple of broken ribs.
30:38
And while that might be enough to make you suspicious, it's this next part that really
30:44
makes you think there may have been more than one person who would wish her to come to
30:49
harm.
30:50
Anna was arrested after the incident, but she was not to be easily silenced, which is
30:57
so annoying these hysterical women.
31:01
Oh, keep your mouth shut.
31:03
After a while, she was in a state of fear.
31:11
She was in a state of fear.
31:15
She was in a state of fear.
31:18
She was in a state of fear.
31:22
She was in a state of fear.
31:26
But that's what I did done read, or she also fucking the judge.
31:34
I don't think so.
31:36
What's more, she had a little black book at the time that contained information she had
31:42
gathered in the several years she'd worked with the police.
31:46
Shit, dude.
31:48
She knew too much.
31:51
One from inside law enforcement had been feeding her information as well.
31:56
Leon Jenkins was police chief from 1919 to 1933.
32:02
When Harry Niles, his successor fell ill in 1946, Jenkins came out of retirement to become
32:12
chief again for more than a year.
32:15
Okay.
32:16
I need to pull up.
32:18
I have a picture I'd like to show you.
32:20
Okay.
32:21
Cassie, take a look at him pictured here celebrating his birthday with a slice of blackberry
32:27
pie.
32:28
Oh, I was like, is that a chicken wing?
32:31
Yeah.
32:32
I thought we could use the levity at this point.
32:35
Who eats pie with their hands?
32:38
I don't know.
32:40
It's a weird one.
32:42
Where is your fork, sir?
32:44
Sir.
32:45
You're in a suit.
32:46
Sir.
32:47
You're in with your hands.
32:49
He got, he got berries all over them fingers, man.
32:52
I'm zooming in.
32:53
Honestly, it looks like it's kind of all over his face too.
32:55
I thought so too, but I was like, I don't know if that's just like a skin condition or no
33:00
idea.
33:01
Yeah, it's interesting.
33:02
It looks like he, it's maybe like the last bite and he picked it up just by like the
33:06
crust end.
33:07
I don't know.
33:08
For the picture, I don't know either, but yeah.
33:10
Anyways, it looks very happy with his pie.
33:13
He sure does.
33:14
A holiday theme too.
33:15
Yeah.
33:16
Look at you.
33:17
It's been positive that his return may have stoked her desire to release her little black
33:23
book, even well after a decade passed.
33:26
You go, girl.
33:27
You can go, girl.
33:28
I mean, but maybe don't.
33:30
Oh, look, so be careful though.
33:32
She had respected Leon Jenkins during his tenure as she'd worked alongside law enforcement.
33:39
But then he sided with his fellow officers in the department during the trial.
33:45
No surprise here, but she reportedly felt it a pretty major betrayal.
33:51
Although seriously, how did she win that lawsuit?
33:54
Yeah, that's crazy.
33:55
I really, I really want to know.
33:57
I feel like she had something on the judge like not really that she was like fucking him,
34:00
but maybe she had him in her little black book.
34:03
She had something on everybody.
34:05
Yeah, but that's the only way that that makes sense.
34:07
Yeah, I don't know.
34:09
I mean, I think it might be interesting for me to look a little bit deeper into like
34:14
the legal context during the time.
34:17
I don't know what at least know.
34:19
I maybe I don't know.
34:21
Yeah, we might have to ask her like any idea how that works.
34:26
Yeah, because I feel like alienation of affections is usually something that like the legal
34:32
spouse.
34:33
Right.
34:34
I just I can't wrap my brain around it.
34:36
But local true crime authors JD Chandler, Joshua Fisher and Teresa Griffin Kennedy
34:44
speculate in hindsight.
34:47
That sparked her anger and she may have decided she was going to leave Portland and go to
34:51
Minnesota and maybe mail the black book back to the Oregonian and finally keep her word
34:58
and expose the corruption in the Portland police bureau.
35:02
Oh my god.
35:05
Black book back.
35:06
I don't know how I made it through that black book bad bitch.
35:10
Yes.
35:11
Oh, still it is only a tenuous theory without very much to substantiate it.
35:18
Although I do find the fact that someone ran an ad in the Oregonian searching for a missing
35:23
person named Anne Schrader, a little bizarre, especially since our Anna Schrader, apparently
35:32
sometimes went by Anne.
35:35
Oh.
35:37
If you see her, she'll be holding a little black book and we really, really want that little
35:41
black book.
35:42
We really need to find that black book.
35:44
In fact, on her 63rd birthday, April 5, 1946, a small ad appeared in the classified section
35:52
of the Oregonian, the ten word ad reading.
35:57
Anyone knowing whereabouts of Anne Schrader, please write Y502 Oregonian.
36:04
It ran three times in total over the course of three weeks.
36:09
There is no record of who placed the strange ad, nor a record of any responses it may have
36:14
received.
36:15
Of course not.
36:16
Of course not.
36:17
The 1946 up at all.
36:19
While that's certainly odd, it's the fact that there is no record that the police ever investigated
36:26
her disappearance.
36:28
That really gets me.
36:29
I mean, it makes a lot of sense.
36:34
They're like, we actually prefer her missing.
36:36
Yeah.
36:37
Exactly.
36:38
Are they really going to try to find this person who has all this dirt on them?
36:42
No.
36:43
It's either they had something to do with it or they just don't want her found in general.
36:48
A thousand percent.
36:49
Also two things can be true.
36:51
They can be involved and then also just we don't want to find her.
36:54
Or maybe she just escaped to Minnesota and is gone.
36:57
We're running it to that.
36:59
In the case of someone like Anna Schrader with numerous wealthy and influential friends,
37:04
it seems likely that a missing person's report would have been filed.
37:09
Anna had ties to a fair few police officers with the PPP, some of whom were still serving
37:16
the city at the time.
37:19
But the Slabtown Chronicle has a post that sums it up nicely.
37:22
So I'm going to read this quote.
37:26
Corruption and rivalries defused the proper focus of the police bureau and the new chief
37:32
Leon Jenkins had far more reason to celebrate the disappearance of his least favorite
37:40
Portlander than get to the bottom of it.
37:43
As a result, Schrader who hadn't received significant public attention in more than a decade
37:49
simply faded away.
37:51
Her disappearance unnoticed, uninvestigated and forgotten.
37:57
That's crazy.
38:00
Wow.
38:03
There are no death records for Anna.
38:08
If she really had moved and one was searching for a death certificate in this jurisdiction rather
38:13
than looking to the Midwest, maybe that could explain the dead end.
38:19
But as far as I know and could find, there's also nothing documenting her move officially
38:28
so far as I could find.
38:30
I bet it though it would be pretty easy for her to just change her name, move and change
38:34
her name in the four years.
38:35
Possibly.
38:36
Possibly.
38:37
It's just vague illusions to her going missing at best, which the historical time period
38:43
may be responsible for.
38:45
Remember, the remains of our jane doe also were missing.
38:51
So, you know, not that hard for something to go missing.
38:57
But if she did move to Minnesota as the story goes, it seems likely there would have been
39:03
documentation of some kind, like property, employment possibly or other records to serve
39:09
as a paper trail of some sort, right?
39:13
Ultimately, it's unlikely that anyone would be able to prove whether she did or didn't
39:18
move conclusively.
39:20
Just like it would be difficult at this point to definitively identify the oak grove jane
39:25
doe at this point without so much as partial dental records to use as a comparison.
39:33
We don't have nothing.
39:36
We don't have any of the records or any.
39:40
It's like all gone.
39:41
Yeah.
39:42
It's all gone.
39:43
I could see like a piece.
39:44
I don't think there's anything.
39:46
But like, what the fuck?
39:48
I think it speaks to, and here's the thing is like I hate to just hang my hat on a conspiracy
39:54
theory, but who better to make a few records go missing than the police who hate the potential
40:07
victim, right?
40:10
Yeah, they don't ever want it.
40:13
I don't know, like when did they go missing?
40:15
Is that even a thing you could figure out?
40:18
I didn't find anything that definitively stated like, hey, by 1970, the records were gone.
40:26
Hard to say.
40:27
They might have been missing like before 1947, even though, you know, who knows?
40:33
I don't have a lot of good information about that.
40:37
Here's the thing is if it went missing just organically, there probably wouldn't be a good
40:43
way to document that.
40:44
Oh, I'm so scared.
40:45
I'm just asking that.
40:49
And if you tossed the records, of course, you're not going to document that.
40:53
Like, hey, through these away, I'm this dude.
40:55
You're welcome.
40:56
Hey, so you just made these go missing.
41:01
But that's where we leave off.
41:04
We might just have to discuss some of the other theories that emerged in a little Patreon
41:09
mini soda.
41:10
That's what I requested.
41:11
And it's what you requested.
41:13
Were you going to do that before I requested it?
41:16
I did.
41:17
It did my notes.
41:18
I wasn't sure.
41:20
But now that you've requested it, I'm like, oh, probably do it.
41:22
Oh, thanks.
41:23
Yeah.
41:24
You can request something of me and I will gladly do it for you.
41:27
Believe me.
41:28
But for now, should we move on to something a little bit lighter?
41:34
Maybe some tarot?
41:36
I think so.
41:37
Let's do some tarot.
41:39
Let's get this palette cleansed.
41:41
Get it clean.
41:42
It's just sad.
41:44
It was very sad.
41:45
[MAGIC WAND]
41:47
[SHUFFLING]
41:50
Caitlyn's picking a card.
41:53
She's feeling it out.
41:55
Oh.
41:56
Oh, it looks intense.
41:59
Oh, we just got that one.
42:01
A ten of--
42:02
Yeah.
42:03
We did in the Barefoot Bandit episode because I just did the bonus and we talked about the
42:08
card again.
42:10
You got to enreverse this time.
42:13
Wow.
42:13
OK.
42:14
Ten of swords.
42:17
It's interesting.
42:19
The first thing I'm seeing is like a body, a skull with no eyes.
42:24
Yeah.
42:24
And then the rest of its body is behind it.
42:27
Obviously, it's not been like chopped up or something.
42:31
But it's still interesting to see.
42:36
Already in our keywords though, I'm seeing some terms that
42:40
maybe you have a linkage.
42:44
OK.
42:44
So keywords are exhaustion, giving up, betrayal, pain and sadness.
42:53
In many decks, the ten of swords depicts a man lying on the ground with ten swords stuck
42:58
in his back.
42:59
Ouch.
43:01
Tens represent the end of a cycle and the start of a new one.
43:05
Therefore this card symbolizes an end to the suffering and sadness you've endured.
43:11
Just in time for you probably couldn't stand much more.
43:14
It's interesting because you were talking that it was potentially-- they were potentially
43:19
tortured.
43:20
Yeah.
43:21
Yeah.
43:22
Ugh.
43:23
A really good point.
43:28
The reverse interpretation says, "The ten of swords suggest you're unwilling to take
43:33
the steps that will move you to a better place.
43:37
Perhaps you're deceiving yourself or you're stalling due to fear.
43:42
But delaying only makes things worse.
43:45
Stop making excuses and choose a course of action."
43:50
That kind of makes me think about Anna and she had threatened for so long.
43:57
I have this little black book.
43:59
She haven't really done anything with it.
44:01
And it's like you almost would have been safer had you released it.
44:06
You know what I mean?
44:10
Because then it's out there and everyone knows about it.
44:12
So if something happens to you then it's obvious.
44:15
Exactly.
44:16
But if it's just like a rumor about it.
44:18
Yeah.
44:19
In a reading about money, the reverse ten can represent a time of recovery after hardship
44:25
or loss.
44:26
A new cycle is beginning and better times may wait around the corner but you must take
44:31
the first step.
44:35
If the reading is about your job, you still feel insecure about your future.
44:39
But in order to get a more satisfactory place, you'll have to take a risk.
44:46
Stop letting the past prevent you from embracing new possibilities.
44:50
Or is this like about someone who did something bad instead of something good to like further
44:58
their advancements?
45:00
That'd be yeah.
45:02
Just because you're taking action on something doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.
45:06
Uh-huh.
45:07
Okay.
45:09
This is interesting.
45:11
In a reading about love, you may still be smarting from a deception, disappointment or
45:16
the trail.
45:18
But at least you can see more clearly now.
45:22
If a relationship has ended, you may experience a new sense of freedom.
45:28
I really wish we could know whether Anna moved away.
45:32
I really would like to be able to know what happened to Anna because it would really inform
45:38
us in a sense like it, is it even possible that she's the lake grove Jane Doe?
45:48
There are so many other possibilities.
45:51
I like to think that the police just paid her off to move away and change her name and
45:55
never come back with her little blockbook.
45:58
Yeah.
45:59
I feel like that's certainly a valid possibility as well.
46:03
I don't know.
46:05
It's hard to know which of those is more likely or if any of them ever happen.
46:12
You know what I mean?
46:13
Like, I definitely also want to know who this person is, but I also don't want it to be
46:18
anybody.
46:19
I mean, it's someone regardless.
46:21
I know it is definitely somebody.
46:25
I mean, this might make you feel a little bit better as awful as it is that her case,
46:31
you know, Anna was never really investigated and so much of the Oak Grove Jane Doe evidence
46:39
has now lost.
46:41
They do still have the case listed on the Clackamas County website.
46:45
So I'm going to link to that because there are images of the items that were discovered.
46:52
So we do at least have photographic evidence of some of the things, obviously given the
46:59
nature of some of the items that were recovered.
47:02
There are some images associated with the case that are, you know, perhaps on the more
47:08
graphic side, but I think it's important to use what we do have to try to see if there's
47:16
even a remote possibility of still solving the case.
47:22
And who knows?
47:23
Maybe those records aren't lost lost.
47:25
Maybe, you know, the fact that they have images of the items that were lost.
47:32
Maybe those are things that like somebody can point to, you know, when they just uncover
47:37
like a random evidence, you know, bag or box that, oh, this, we thought this was lost
47:45
forever and maybe we do still have it.
47:48
Like they just lost track of it, not lost it.
47:52
I don't know.
47:53
I'd like to think maybe that's a possibility.
47:54
I mean, it is a possibility.
47:56
Yeah.
47:57
Likely does that.
47:58
Yeah.
47:59
I don't know.
48:00
Yeah.
48:01
And I think even if it isn't that it was Anna and that the police like actively like made
48:07
that evidence go away, I think the fact that it's, you know, essentially gone missing for
48:13
all intents and purposes, I think, yeah, it's probably unlikely that it will be recovered,
48:18
but it would be nice.
48:21
Wow.
48:22
Yeah.
48:23
Is, did they ever connect any other body found in this like type of way?
48:30
Like, did they ever think anybody else was, I guess we kind of talked about the serial killer
48:35
thing.
48:36
They didn't really do that back then.
48:38
Yeah.
48:39
To my knowledge, there weren't any other, there weren't any other remains that were recovered
48:46
within like a timeframe or that matched kind of in other aspects of the case that were
48:53
necessarily linked.
48:54
I think there are just other missing persons cases and other, you know, killers that, oh,
49:02
this could maybe link up.
49:03
So that's also a possibility.
49:05
Maybe, you know, I think probably anybody that might have confessed, probably has taken
49:12
that to their deathbed and beyond, but you never know.
49:17
I mean, maybe somebody wrote in their journal like, yeah, a long lost journal.
49:24
Yeah.
49:25
Oh, man.
49:26
There is a long last letter that is how we know that she was being fed information from
49:31
other police officers.
49:34
Oh.
49:35
Yeah.
49:36
That was recovered in some public records.
49:40
So that's something that, that's in my sort of source material.
49:44
It'll be in the paste bin.
49:45
One of the articles that refers to that, was that like a case she was helping on or was
49:49
that like from her court case?
49:52
No, it's specifically related to her.
49:54
So interesting.
49:55
Yeah.
49:56
Oh, it was really interesting.
49:59
So I mean, I think, you know, it's very convenient.
50:05
I don't know how plausible a lot of conspiracy theories, especially when it pertains
50:10
to like a law enforcement cover up.
50:13
Sometimes, you know, we know that there are faults on the part of law enforcement and the
50:17
justice system.
50:18
But in a lot of cases, it can seem like kind of a reach.
50:22
I think in this case in particular, it feels like, woof.
50:26
Yeah, there could be some truth about that.
50:28
She was heavily involved with police in multiple, multiple different ways.
50:34
Yes.
50:35
Professionally and romantically.
50:37
Business or producer?
50:38
Do you think maybe the wife did it?
50:41
The jealous wife.
50:42
You know, I just strictly super conspiracy theory.
50:46
Yeah.
50:47
I feel like anything's the possibility, but I think that one seems unlikely.
50:52
Yeah.
50:53
I think, you know, not that women aren't capable of doing horrific things, but I think
50:57
a lot.
50:58
It is.
50:59
It is.
51:00
And I think just the nature of how the body was dismembered and disposed.
51:06
I think that for a woman of that time, that may have been a little bit beyond reach.
51:12
Yeah.
51:13
I think typically your wife was, I mean, and not to say that I approve of this, of course,
51:19
by any means, but, you know, you're in a little bit shorter leash.
51:23
Oh my God, I've seen the same thing like kept on a tight leash.
51:26
Yeah.
51:27
So I just think it seems unlikely that that is has a high likelihood of being the possible
51:35
explanation, but.
51:38
And without being graphic, it's like a very physical thing to see on a person.
51:44
Yes.
51:45
No, I mean, and that's exactly what I think as well.
51:48
It's, that's, I doesn't get much more personal or much more violent than that.
51:55
And like, oh, how long that takes and to spend that much time doing that many different
52:03
cuts.
52:04
Which is also interesting.
52:05
We got like the 10 of swords.
52:08
I don't know how many like cuts were made to the body, but it seems like there could very
52:12
well have been 10 of them or more.
52:14
I mean, numerous because there are the cuts that are separating the limbs from the body,
52:22
but there are also, and I think this is particularly important because fingerprint technology, like
52:28
that, that's a science that existed at that point in history.
52:32
I don't know that the hands were ever recovered.
52:35
The hands were severed from the arms.
52:38
So that is interesting.
52:41
Yeah.
52:42
Like where did they decide to dispose of those or did they try to like burn them or something
52:47
else?
52:48
Yeah.
52:49
Burned buried.
52:50
Who knows.
52:51
But I would think that would be aside from maybe the head, the hands might be the most
52:56
readily identifiable body parts in a case like this for the time.
53:03
So I don't know.
53:05
10 cuts, I don't know.
53:08
Possibly.
53:09
Very likely.
53:10
I don't want to like think about trying to like count.
53:14
I'm already doing the map of my head and I think 10 ish or, you know, I feel like 10 plus
53:21
actually is a very good possibility.
53:23
You know, to sever each of the limbs and then the hands were already up to eight.
53:30
Yeah, eggs.
53:31
Very yikes.
53:35
Just logistically, I hate it.
53:37
I hate everything and here we are.
53:40
Where's package is ever?
53:42
I know, not very Christmassy, but I would turn the money on Amazon.
53:46
Yeah, they did not come with a gift receipt.
53:49
I can't scam a little code and return it at calls.
53:52
No QR code.
53:56
Man, I just really hope there's something someday.
54:00
And then we're around to talk about it together.
54:03
I know.
54:04
I really, there's a little part of me that's like, okay, is there like a place that people
54:09
can, like, can we go and look through like an old evidence locker or like, is there like
54:14
some sort of like volunteer record system where like, oh, shit, we thought all of this was
54:20
like bookkeeping.
54:21
But maybe there's, you know, crime scene evidence.
54:25
I don't know.
54:26
It would be hard, a hard thing to like try to get people to not like fuck up any evidence
54:31
while they're searching for things.
54:33
But it would just be, that would be a really interesting thing I would love to like volunteer
54:38
and help out with.
54:39
Yeah.
54:40
If there's anything that needs to be like searched for, I'm good for looking, I'm good at looking
54:45
for things.
54:46
Yeah.
54:47
I'm good at organizing things.
54:48
Yeah.
54:49
Yeah, maybe we'll have to look into that and see if there's, I doubt that that will be
54:54
the application, right?
54:56
But it would be, it would be cool to look into some volunteer opportunities for things
55:00
like that to like, you know, maybe these are things we can do that make a difference in.
55:05
Yeah.
55:06
Because there anyway, we could help without fucking anything up, you know, I wouldn't want
55:09
to hurt more than hell forever.
55:12
Yeah.
55:13
I think, you know, I think maybe we'll take the more proactive role actually on that.
55:23
Yeah.
55:24
My number is, yeah, I feel like I would probably, oh, wait, they know, they're police.
55:28
They can just look up my records.
55:30
Yeah.
55:31
What's going to say?
55:32
I have police records.
55:33
No, I'm going to absolutely piss my pants thinking about this.
55:36
Oh, I was like, do you have to pee and I like keep talking.
55:38
No.
55:39
Okay.
55:40
But just that's like such a nerve wracking thought to be like, you know, just contacted by law
55:46
enforcement.
55:47
Have you ever like had your info like been fingerprinted?
55:51
I don't know if we've talked about this before.
55:53
Have you ever been like fingerprinted?
55:54
I think I've ever been fingerprinted.
55:56
I worked at a daycare.
55:57
So you fun fact, you have to go if you work at a daycare, get fingerprinted and like input
56:03
into the system and like, I think that's for the best.
56:07
It totally is.
56:08
I was like, I have no problem doing this.
56:10
I will gladly do this.
56:11
But like, now I'm in the system.
56:13
They got, they got some offing prints.
56:15
Yeah.
56:16
I can't do anything wrong.
56:17
Well, and I would think that of jobs that I've had over the years, probably if there was
56:23
one where I would be required to do that and where it would be useful maybe to have
56:28
somebody's fingerprints is like, I worked at a bank, you know, when I was a teller, seems
56:34
like, I mean, I would want fingerprints for anybody who's handling that, you know, sort
56:38
of volume of cash.
56:40
But then also when you're touching like so many individual pieces of like, you know, paper
56:46
essentially all day, every day, like your fingerprint becomes like such a, like commodity.
56:53
Oh, okay.
56:54
You're going to see it all over everything.
56:55
I thought you were going to see your fingers get too dry to where they can't read your
56:58
fingerprints.
56:59
Oh, no, I don't think that's a thing.
57:01
Because like touching paper makes your fingers dry.
57:04
It does.
57:05
Yeah, absolutely.
57:06
I know this.
57:07
Yeah.
57:08
Because I do a lot of shredding.
57:09
And I now wear gloves.
57:10
Also because I get so many paper cuts.
57:13
Oh my God.
57:14
I get paper cuts.
57:15
Like if I even look at a piece of paper, I'll get a paper cut.
57:17
So I have to wear gloves.
57:19
I'm really prone to them as well.
57:21
I feel like working with money, you don't really have that issue so much, but your hands
57:25
do get really dry.
57:26
Especially because you're constantly sanitizing them because money is very, very, very
57:31
dirty.
57:32
And I asked you, that's how you create them.
57:34
Super bugs, Kayla.
57:35
And we were just talking about the, it's not the same.
57:38
It's not the same.
57:39
It's the same.
57:40
It's definitely not the same.
57:42
No, I mean, one of the times that I have been truly like the sickest, I would say arguably
57:50
that is like a cognitive true memory in my mind that I can remember.
57:55
It's like the earliest is when I went through teller training and I had to go down to
57:59
Salem and I came back very, very ill.
58:04
That's when I had mono.
58:05
Oh, you got mono from touching money?
58:08
I don't know.
58:11
I got mono in the time.
58:12
Were you making out with the money?
58:13
You're like, "Oh, a honey."
58:15
Yeah, I think, unfortunately mono I think is one of those things is just like very highly
58:21
contagious.
58:22
No, you have to make out.
58:24
It's a rule.
58:25
I'm pretty sure that that's not how that works.
58:28
It's the kissing disease.
58:30
I know.
58:31
Okay, well now I'm giggling now because you're also I'm totally kidding.
58:35
I know that it can be transmitted otherwise.
58:37
It's kind of like COVID, right?
58:38
Where it's just like highly contagious.
58:41
That's what I was saying.
58:43
I was just yanking your chain.
58:46
It is spread through saliva, but...
58:49
Well spit when they talk.
58:51
People spit when they talk, but also have you ever seen somebody like their finger?
58:55
Oh, yes.
58:56
Yes.
58:57
Yeah, we shouldn't do that no more.
59:00
No, you never should have done it, to be honest.
59:03
But yeah, it makes sense actually now seeing that.
59:08
I mean, all you have to do is come into contact with somebody else's contaminated saliva.
59:13
However, that happens.
59:14
So it could be a dored up, whatever.
59:17
But it is popularly referred to as the kissing disease because it's transmitted through
59:24
saliva.
59:25
Yeah.
59:27
Can you get it like through your cuda or wewie?
59:30
Like if someone's licking down there, could it...
59:34
Could you get it that way or does it have to go from like mouth to mouth?
59:38
No, because you could like get it in your eye.
59:40
Yeah, I mean you exactly.
59:42
Feel like any orifices.
59:44
Any orifices.
59:45
Any mucus membrane, essentially.
59:48
Yeah.
59:49
Yeah.
59:50
Did I just say cuda or like wewie?
59:54
Yeah, you did.
59:55
You sure did?
59:56
I am a grown adult.
59:58
The Gina penis.
59:59
Could have fooled me.
1:00:01
The Gina penis.
1:00:03
Jesus Christ.
1:00:05
That's like my least favorite word.
1:00:07
I just like, cause they're fun to say and like funny.
1:00:09
I don't like any of that.
1:00:11
Kuchi Miamiao.
1:00:12
That's what Brittany calls it.
1:00:14
Kuchi Brinio says Kuchi Miamiao.
1:00:16
I'm dead.
1:00:18
Anyway, this has been an actual real polyclinzer, but it's black.
1:00:26
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
1:00:27
I think we were sensing that that was what was needed.
1:00:31
Mm-hmm.
1:00:32
It's not at all because one of us is dangerously low medication.
1:00:37
And one of us is unmedicated.
1:00:40
And the other is almost unmedicated, not by choice.
1:00:45
Yeah.
1:00:46
Yeah.
1:00:47
There's Biatch.
1:00:48
Chars Biatch.
1:00:49
Well, it's depressing as that was.
1:00:51
We still hope you're having a wonderful holiday season.
1:00:54
Yeah.
1:00:55
Winter solstice.
1:00:56
Yeah.
1:00:57
Winter solstice, you lit up.
1:00:59
Yeah, she's right around the corner.
1:01:01
Right, the 21st, right?
1:01:03
The 20th or the 21st?
1:01:04
One of those.
1:01:05
Roundabouts.
1:01:06
All right.
1:01:07
Should we do the thing?
1:01:08
Do all our business.
1:01:09
Okay.
1:01:10
Have a creepy ass day.
1:01:12
See you next Tuesday.
1:01:13
See you next Tuesday.
1:01:14
I don't have anything funny to say.
1:01:24
I'm sad.
1:01:25
Okay, I'm stopping.
1:01:26
Bad journalism.
1:01:27
Okay.
1:01:28
I'll start over.
1:01:29
Go to Minnesota.
1:01:30
Go to Minnesota.
1:01:31
And be bad.
1:01:32
And we be bad in Minnesota.
1:01:34
[LAUGHTER]
1:01:35
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