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10: When Sex Interrupts Your Work Day (Drew Boa) · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Just a reminder that Finding God at Work
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isn't just a podcast, it's also an online
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course.
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Check it out at FindingGodAtWork.org.
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Our current series is Divine Disappointments, Facing Pain
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and Sorrow at Work.
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And today I am so psyched to have
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a very special guest on the show with
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me, Drew Boa.
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Welcome, Drew.
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Hey, Chris.
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Great to see you.
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Drew is the founder and CEO of Husband
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Material Ministries, where he helps men outgrow porn.
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He is also a podcaster, coach, pastoral sex
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addiction professional, and certified brain spotting practitioner.
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And on top of all those things, Drew
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is also a friend of mine.
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We have known each other.
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I did the math for 14 years now,
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which is seven times two.
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It's like a biblical fullness of friendship.
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Completion.
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So it's just a delight and a joy
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to have you here, Drew.
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So just by way of context for our
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listeners, Drew leading this ministry, Husband Material Ministries,
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has come out with a book quite recently
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called Outgrow Porn, Find Lasting Freedom Without Fighting
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An Exhausting Battle.
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I just finished reading it.
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It's been super helpful.
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And listeners might be wondering, how does this
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connect to faith in the workplace and the
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idea of the struggles and the disappointments that
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we face in the workplace?
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And we're going to get to that because,
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like we've talked about throughout the podcast, we're
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integrated human beings, mind, body, soul, all together.
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And our work is part of that.
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And so exploring, hey, how does our sexuality
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interface with our work experience is actually a
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great way to think about how to welcome
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God into our work.
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So before we dive into all that, Drew,
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how do you find God at work?
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What's something that's helpful for you just on
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an average work day to welcome God's presence?
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Simply praying at the start of a group
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or a one-on-one session sets the
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tone and welcomes God, knowing that he's already
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here and we want to be aware of
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him here.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So often, it's just how we tune our
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attention that makes the difference.
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So that's great.
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Okay, so in your book, Drew, you share
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this great story of when you were learning
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to surf in Costa Rica.
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And you kind of use this as an
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analogy for how you think about our relationship
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with sexuality too.
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Could you tell a little of that story
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and what that means?
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Yeah, I was trying to learn how to
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surf and extremely frustrated and exhausted because I
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couldn't even get out far enough to catch
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a wave.
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The waves kept pushing me back.
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I was so frustrated and exhausted.
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I was like, this is just not working.
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Well, my instructor told me, Drew, you're fighting
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against the ocean.
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You're never going to win that battle.
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Stop competing with this force that is so
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much more powerful than you.
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Instead, move with it.
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Find a way to collaborate with the ocean.
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And if you get really good at this
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skill, you can even dive under the waves.
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And once I figured out how that worked,
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even though it was counterintuitive, everything changed.
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I actually got where I wanted to go.
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And sexuality is in many ways like the
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ocean.
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It's beautiful.
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It's a wonderful opportunity for connection and joy.
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And it's also very, very powerful and it
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can destroy us.
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And so rather than trying to fight against
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our sexual thoughts and feelings, including the urge
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to watch porn, I invite people to befriend
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their sexuality and move with it.
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And it's a very different approach.
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Yeah.
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As I was reading the book, you talked
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about purity culture and this idea that a
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lot of times our relationship with sexuality is
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framed as a battle.
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There were even books that had that word
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battle in the title that framed it that
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way for Christian teenagers, particularly evangelical teenagers, but
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perhaps others as well.
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And that idea of there's this kind of
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antagonism, like my sexuality is the enemy and
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I've got to beat it.
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You found actually makes the problem worse versus
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this befriending approach allows for real healing.
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Could you just share what's the difference in
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stance there of battling versus befriending?
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Yeah.
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Well, the more we resist emotions, sexual attractions,
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and temptations, the stronger they get.
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That's why so many of us who have
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had a history with pornography have felt like
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I felt in my surfing lesson, just frustrated
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and exhausted, crying over and over again and
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being overpowered by this thing that's stronger than
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me.
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So the purity culture approach was just one
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example of anti sexuality, a negative view, a
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negative stance towards anything sexual.
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And it wasn't all bad.
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Like there were some good pieces of it,
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but the problem was being motivated by fear
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and shame.
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Rather than the approach that I've been learning,
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that I've been teaching, is focused and motivated
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by love and kindness.
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And that has a completely different energy with
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it.
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Yeah.
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For me, one of the reasons that that
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kind of battling image I just assumed was
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good is because Jesus in the Sermon on
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the Mount, he teaches whoever looks at a
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woman lustfully has committed adultery in the heart.
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So I'm like, that sounds pretty serious.
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That sounds pretty bad, something to fight.
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And yet also, as we read the Sermon
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on the Mount, Jesus is always addressing the
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heart.
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His point is you have a heart that's
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going to lust after that woman.
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And it seems like this befriending approach is
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kind of more exploring what's going on in
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my heart that leads me to have these
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sexual feelings or have this sexual arousal.
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And then moving forward as you gain more
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insights about your heart.
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Exactly.
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Sexual thoughts and feelings are often secondary, just
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like anger is often secondary.
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There's something underneath it.
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Same is true for sexuality.
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Yeah.
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So there was a quote from your book
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that I really loved where you were dealing
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or working with one of your clients.
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And he said, you're like the Mr. Rogers
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of sexual recovery.
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And I love that because I love Mr.
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Rogers, Fred Rogers.
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He's like one of my spiritual heroes.
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But I also felt like that embodied your
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approach, that it's actually going to help people
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more help people move into life with God
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and healthier sexuality more to have a gentle
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approach and a kind of approach than a
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kind of antagonistic or militaristic approach.
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Yeah.
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And when you spend all of your energy
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trying to stop a relapse, that will affect
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every area of your life, including work.
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It can take up a ton of mental
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space.
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It can be emotionally exhausting.
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It can hurt your relationships and it can
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create a sense of distance or alienation from
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God.
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So this is something where I'm hoping that
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instead of feeling like you're fighting a battle,
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you'll feel like your Mr. Rogers bringing love
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and compassion to your sexuality and whatever parts
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of you are hurting and in need of
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some tenderness.
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Yeah.
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And one thing I want to emphasize is,
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as I read your book, is this is
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not in any ways backing down from like
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a commitment to holiness or like rigorous discipleship,
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repenting of sin.
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It's actually a deeper way to engage that
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process.
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The way that we recover from sin, so
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to speak, or that we recover from other
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things, maybe that we don't even bear full
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responsibility for is not by just addressing behavior,
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but by letting God heal the heart.
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So I really appreciated that.
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And for some listeners, that might be new
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that this isn't just about gritting it out
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with a kind of effortful resistance, but there
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can actually be some internal dynamics that lead
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to healing.
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If you could summarize like the main idea
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of your approach to healing, how would you
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describe it?
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Chapter one of the book is called heal
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the boy to free the man.
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You might also say heal the girl to
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free the woman.
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Primarily, it's not men and women who get
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hooked on porn, it's boys and girls.
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When you think about how old were you
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when you first encountered porn, most people I
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ask will say six years old, nine years
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old, 12 years old.
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But we've been exploited from a young age
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by a hundred billion dollar industry that sexually
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abused us as a generation.
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And so yeah, that's part of why it's
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so difficult and complex to pursue freedom.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, I love this approach so much.
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I've personally benefited from it.
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You and I have had some conversations about
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that.
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I have friends that read your earlier book,
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Redeem Sexuality, and it was a game changer
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for them.
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So I'm really excited for this book, Outgrow
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Porn, to resource more men and women in
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their journey of recovery.
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Kind of bringing the conversation back to the
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workplace specifically, sometimes our sexuality comes up at
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work.
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It's not like our sexuality goes away when
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we log into our laptop or walk in
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the doors of our office or our workplace.
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So if you find yourself kind of sexually
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aroused at the workplace, say, how do you
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respond to that?
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Man, this is so important.
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I think Patrick Carnes, the grandfather of the
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field of sex addiction, once said that porn
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is a workplace phenomenon.
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And if you could add up all the
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hours that people spend at work accessing porn,
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it's a staggering number.
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But beyond the temptation to look up images
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and videos on the internet, it could also
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just be feeling sexual attraction or energy with
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a coworker or even a really strong emotional
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connection that can be a threat and that
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can be a risk.
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So the first step, instead of fighting or
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fleeing that experience right away, is to simply
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face it and welcome those thoughts and feelings.
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Now, that's a counterintuitive step for certain Christian
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listeners.
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Like, wait, I'm getting sexually aroused at work
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and you're saying I should welcome that?
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Tell me more.
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Yeah.
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Well, obviously, if you are at risk of
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doing something inappropriate or someone doing something inappropriate
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with you, leave the situation immediately.
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Like, don't even waste any time trying to
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negotiate.
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Just get out of there.
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Flee sexual immorality, as Paul says.
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Now, if that's all you do, the sexual
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thoughts and feelings will stay in your body
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and they will resurface later.
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It could be hours later, it could be
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days later, and they will come back with
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a vengeance if we don't process them.
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And that's why we need to face them.
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And as I'm saying, welcome all that is
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within you to say, hmm, I'm feeling this
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attraction right now or I'm feeling this urge
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right now.
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Isn't that fascinating?
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Hello, urge.
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Hello, attraction.
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Nice to see you.
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This might sound silly, but it's creating this
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culture of hospitality within your soul instead of
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hostility.
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And when we are hostile against these thoughts
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and feelings, as I said, they get stronger
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and they might hide away for a while,
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but they will intensify.
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And so if we welcome a sexual urge
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and stay mindfully, nonjudgmentally observant of it, it
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can pass within 30 minutes.
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If we try to make it go away
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or shut it down, it can snowball into
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an avalanche or feel like a train that's
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getting faster and faster.
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So simply welcome these thoughts and feelings.
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And then you can start to ask, where
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might this be coming from?
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Hmm, what's underneath this?
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And there are lots of tools like the
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floss method or like inner child work that
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can help to answer some of those questions
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because it's not about sex, it's about the
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heart, as you said.
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So we need to learn how to go
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deeper.
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I love the floss method.
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I know we probably don't have time to
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unpack the whole thing here, but could we
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just like say like point by point what
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the floss method is, even though we don't
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have a chance to like dig into it
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super well?
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Yeah, so the basic concept is instead of
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staying on the surface level and dealing with
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sexual symptoms, you're getting into the deep dark
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places where stuff might be hidden.
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You know, like when you floss your teeth.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And the letters of floss stand for fear,
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lie, origin story, sadness and surrender.
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I'm just going to focus on the O
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of origin story for now and the time
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that we have.
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Ask yourself, when have I felt this way
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before?
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So if I'm seeing an attractive person, hmm,
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when have I seen someone like this before?
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Or if I feel like really judged or
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criticized by my boss, even though my boss
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didn't say anything particularly negative, hmm, what if
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I felt this way before?
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If I have this really strong emotional connection
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and I feel accepted by somebody when maybe
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I don't feel accepted by my friends or
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by my family or my spouse at home,
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hmm, when have I felt that way before?
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Or the flip side of it is, you
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know, if I'm feeling accepted, then what have
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I felt rejected before by someone like that?
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And that's a simple way of starting to
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surface what might be underneath.
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I love that.
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So it sounds like if you're finding yourself
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sexually aroused during the workday, the thing is
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not to try and suppress that or ignore
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it or run away from it or fight
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it, but instead kind of have a curiosity,
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a hospitality about it.
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Oh, that's interesting.
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I wonder why I'm feeling that way.
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And then when you have a breather, a
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moment to look at how does that felt
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this way before?
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And that'll help you unpack some of the
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feelings that might be behind that experience.
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Yes.
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While also setting up safe boundaries as necessary.
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Right.
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There is an additional step that can be
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so beautiful when you not only address the
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arousal you're feeling, but also bless the desire.
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So I said, for example, feeling accepted by
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somebody, the desire for acceptance is good.
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Yeah.
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You know, that's God given.
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So, so I can find a way to
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bless not only the fact that maybe this
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person is really attractive or I feel really
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seen and heard by them, but like I
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can also bless that, that what my heart
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wants deep down.
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It's not a bad thing.
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Well, I can just feel the de-escalation.
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So I say that rather than, you know,
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just locking down in survival mode, trying to,
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to get through it.
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Yeah.
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I know for, for me personally, it's been
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really helpful to, you know, if I, if
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I have an experience like that at the
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workplace, to not freak out tonight, you're like,
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there's something terribly wrong with me that I
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find one of my coworkers attractive.
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Like that's a normal response.
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And, and when I've given myself that permission
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to be like, Oh, that's a normal response
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rather than immediately going to like shame or
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guilt, then I do find, Oh, I have
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that breathing room to, to process it, to
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let it go.
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And, and, and to exercise healthy boundaries, to
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not, to not fantasize about that person, to
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honor my wife, to et cetera.
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And it's just such a, such a better
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approach.
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It's almost like, you know, rather than trying
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harder when we try softer, we actually get
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closer to, closer to freedom.
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Right.
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So Andy Colbert's book, Try Softer is really
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good.
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Oh, I didn't even know about that book.
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I, I heard the Try Softer phrase from
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John Wartburg, I think, but he probably posted
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it from Andy.
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Yeah.
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On D Colbert.
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Okay.
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And that's, that's a great way of reframing
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this whole battling versus befriending is like, instead
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of trying harder, Try Softer.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And instead of turning these sexual feelings into
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magical, forbidden no-nos, it's like, we normalize
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it.
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There are beautiful people who are emotionally attractive,
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physically attractive, maybe even spiritually attractive, and that's
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okay.
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We don't have to be threatened by it
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and we don't have to be controlled by
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it.
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Amen.
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Well, I wish we had more time and
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we'll see if we can make more time.
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Maybe have Drew do a part two of
18:59
this with us.
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But Drew, as we close this out, could
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you just pray a prayer for all our
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listeners as they face whatever they may be
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facing at work that they would welcome God
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in that moment?
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Yes.
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Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you created us
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for connection.
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May we experience that connection with you, with
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others and within ourselves, especially when we're feeling
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sexually triggered or tempted.
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Help us to move with your design and
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to receive your kindness, to be kind to
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ourselves so that we can process whatever's unprocessed
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and be present wherever we go.
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Amen.
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Thanks for listening.
19:58
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