Latest / Beat The Odds with Dre, Rodney, & Brylan / AI Agents Solve the Impossible, Apple’s Phone Number Trap & The 2% Investment Bet
Transcript
- Dre: Yo guys, welcome back to another episode of Beat the Odds. I'm actually excited today that all three of us are back together. I feel like it's been a while. Brylan: It's been a minute. Dre: Bryan, you've been on the road all over the world. For real, for real. Closing deals, Brylan: I know. Dre: mixing and mingling with the with your your coworkers. so me and br Brylan: Yeah, bro. Dre: me me and Rodney been holding it down on the pod the last couple of weeks, man. But feels good to have you Rodney: Yeah. Dre: back, man. Brylan: Nah I'm excited to be back, bro. I was catching the conversations. you know, while I was out, man, and as always, man, the bar is being raised. Dre: yeah. yeah. yeah. Rodney: Yeah. Dre: yeah. How y'all been, man? We what Wednesday, halfway through the week. What y'all got going on? Rodney: Well, I'm good, you know, like like I was house saying before we we kicked this off, I I've been off th all this week. So, you know, I've been I I I've been cooling, you know. I I it's important that when you have unlimited PTO that you take the time off. 'Cause you if you leave your job or you get fired, you're not gonna you're not gonna get paid out. So that's important. And also it's just good to take some breaks. But yeah, I had realized I had been working for almost a year straight. Brylan: Mm. Rodney: and and not taking really any breaks. It wasn't that I was really tired or anything like that. I could have kept going, but I felt that it was it'd be good to like pull back a little bit. Brylan: Is this co is this common for you, or do you often see yourself like, you know, making use of PTO, things of that nature? Rodney: No, bro. I literally just said like I I hadn't I hadn't taken any PTO f since November. Like I haven't taken actually to be honest with you, and you can't even really count that because it's before before I got the my job, I was working somewhere else. So it's not like I was Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: like it wasn't like I right, like I really didn't I really haven't I I I just been working. I've been working nonstop pretty much. So Brylan: What does rest look look Rodney: Yeah. Brylan: like to you like at this stage of your life or this season of your life? Rodney: Man, just doing just just being just being a little bit more you know, I would say creative. But just like I I'm more of a person of like I grew up just kind of like waking up whenever I wanted, going to sleep late, you know, drinking, soaking, doing all these different things. and I feel like I was my most creative during that time, but I was the most out of control. So I find that now mo most of my regular life and when I'm working, I try to be more structured and more reliable. But when I'm like relaxing Bro, like I'm wasting money for sure. Not like not like tons of it, but like more than I have in more than I had in a long time. Like I'm just I'm just a little bit more relaxed with the way that I spend, my discipline, et cetera. But there's certain habits I'm not gonna stop. Like I've still gotta go go to the gym. I still try to maintain the I still maintain a a s sleep consistency, like for my bedtime. But yeah, that's what rela relaxing is for me. Brylan: Mm. What about you, Joe? Dre: Man, Man, I try to relax every day a little bit. I'm not gonna lie. I try to compound it. So I I'll just take moments even during the day. Like if I don't have a meeting on my s on my calendar, if I don't have anything I need to like prioritize, I'll just take a moment, step away, go for a walk, go for a drive. Like today, I just went for a drive, went to a gas station just f further away from my house. I could have went to a closer one, but was like, you know, I just feel like driving. I hadn't really been out the house much today. So I try to take incremental breaks. To kind of keep a little bit more balance. But if for a more extended time, for me it's always like probably traveling, going somewhere. Like this weekend I'm going to Atlanta for a few days. So I was just telling Rodney, I'm kind of sprinting this week to try to get as much as I can done so that I can really just unplug this weekend and just relax. And just enjoy. Enjoy my time there. Just be present. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, I think that's that's how that's how I try to do it. Brylan: fire. That's fire. Yeah man, it's it's definitely needed for sure. Especially like I feel like we all have that mindset of like all gas, no breaks. Dre: yeah, bro. Bro, Rodney: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Dre: as I as I get older, bro, I I and I mean this sounds cliche, bro, because everybody says this, but you really start to understand it in a more principled form. Like it really is a marathon and not a sprint. You know what I'm saying? Like there is Rodney: yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah. Dre: tremendous value. The the way I think about it, and I even tell this to my team, right? I'm like, look, most times we're just coasting, right? We're just maintaining and that requires a certain cadence and a certain way of working. Every now and then we might need to surge on something, right? Where we need more intensity, you know what I'm saying? We need to give more hours, more commitment. But we're not running at that pace all the time. We don't need to run at that pace all the time. Like and but when I was younger, I thought you needed to run at that pace all the time. But now that I'm older, I'm like, nah, I don't think it's necessary. I don't think it's necessary. I think it does more harm than it does good, to be honest. But maybe when you're young and you don't have any priorities or nothing else to do, maybe it's beneficial. But as I get older, I value more the I I I value the things outside of the grind a lot more. And I tell I tell the the people that work with me the same thing. They should value that as well. Like get out the house, go touch the grass, stop just thinking about work all the time. Like it's okay. Rodney: Yeah, yeah. It it it it it seems a lot like people these days talk about the this feeling of not having enough so then they feel like they have to work or to work harder or whatever it is. I I I see We're not gonna talk too much about this because every week there's a layoff, but I saw there's some there's some layoffs I have on that at HubSpot. We're not gonna talk too much about that 'cause but the the general thing I've seen is that is that I do think it'd be it's good for people to take breaks, find ways to relax. for me, random stuff also too. Dre had me thinking, I was like, I went and got size randomly, a coup a couple of them just randomly, just because going to these different places, different hot tubs. I have a gym membership, but I s decided to switch up the the membership to go to a different part of the city just because like just because. Like and so just stepping outside of your routine, that's a big thing. but yeah so what do y'all what do y'all want to start start off with? I know like the thing that popped up for me is gonna be AI based, but it but I think what Brianlin brought up might be a bit more interesting though to start off with. Brylan: Yeah, which which which one, man? 'Cause I feel like yeah, all of us gonna be touching all yeah, but how how do we how do we wanna piece Rodney: Okay, okay, okay. I okay, so I Brylan: it piece it? Rodney: okay, so I think I think the most interesting thing was what you said about wallets and AI agents. But I'll I'll Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: I'll talk about I'll start off with explaining to you guys or to the audience in general how I've been using my instinct agent. to buy things and I'm able to connect multiple credit cards and debit cards to instinct. At some point maybe they'll it'll do a a bank account, but I was able to get it to book my biomarkers from Immortals, which is funny because that's that's where I work, but I just never wanted to do it. I never wanted to fill up the form. So I'm like I asked it, can you can you do it? And then it booked it with my car it didn't even have to pay though. But it was able to go to our site and book that I thought I was interested in being an engineer. So then it naturally started making me think about should we have a text agent for people who want to manage their appointments and their subscriptions and their products and their their medications? that's neither here nor there. But we and then I had used it to buy on like a new whoop band so I was just like I want to have a blue one. It sends me a bunch of options and buys it. Then let's see I had I can't even remember there was one more thing that I had it buy and it it made me realize that I don't really care to do a lot of shopping but I will just do I I want to send like a three or four three or five word text real quick real short when I'm when I have the idea, when I'm inspired, and shoot it off real quick and have it starting to be worked on and it's like a dialogue. So it'll send me back y what colors you want, the links, the pictures, the photos. And look in your email and say, this is the book that you had, this is the right one based on within your email. So that I felt as though that was a definitely a unique shopping experience. And maybe what funny enough, perplexity may have been seeing once upon a time twelve months ago, but th this this whole idea of shopping, I think that some people might have been a bit too early on. when they first made I guess AI chatbots. Brylan: Yeah, 'cause there were a few companies, if I remember correctly, that were trying to go after those e-commerce yeah, Rodney: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brylan: use cases. Did they did you ever get into using any of those? Rodney: No, I didn't. And that's the thing. Like I I because to me at the time all it was doing was the i it it's really just the the the the user experience. For me, I'm just texting a phone. I'm already in iMessages. For me, I don't know about everybody else, but I do not at this point I have a hundred apps. I'm not trying to open up a million apps. I got a different login for each app. It makes me not want to even open up an app. But if I could Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: just go to Texas one thing and it basically does pretty much everything, it And then it's like, I mean, it just makes it so much easier for me to shop. Because I I then I'm just like, okay, I want an Apple Watch band that looks like this. Okay, I want a whoop band that looks like this. Okay, I want to I'm just I'm just doing it real quick. And you can send voice notes. So it just changes the shopping experience in a different way. And it's not just one retailer or one site. So if I I love Amazon, but maybe the option is on Amazon and some like If you make it easy for me to pay and just to get it done, I don't I almost don't care. You see what I'm saying? So it becomes different. It just becomes different in a way. It's just hard to it's just Dre: Mm. Rodney: it's it's it's changing this ch it's changing the whole thing. So I love it though. I love it. Cause it feels as though everything is gonna be easier. I I almost imagine this this futuristic experience in the world where people are not gonna have to think at all. And people could argue whether or not that's good or not. But your your your way you make money, your your the way your your money's managed, the way their transactions happen, it'll be hard to fuck up your life. Like that's what I that's what I see. but there's gonna be a a a a a long time before that. Long relatively Brylan: So a question I want to ask is I know, yeah, a few weeks ago at the heart of you know these conversations around these proactive agents was like trust and safety, right? Like one, how much were you willing to give it permission to? And then based off of that permission, like what context was it able to get on your life, right? And I kind of think it's almost like a ring where there's probably different layers where like yeah I'm I'm I'm I'm willing to give it my calendar or my Gmail but to give it my bank account like that's a whole other like level of trust. And I feel like you know with payments kind of what you're starting to see are like two different approaches. So like I think it's meta so from use and instinct what they're doing correct me if I'm wrong but this was just based off the research I was doing on their product because I haven't had them purchase anything for me yet but yeah they're using Stripe and you have to approve every purchase And then there's the other approach, which is like Manis. So Manis just rolled out their version of like instinct, you know, dots from OpenAI. and it's built on Stripe 2. But the approach that they're taking is you give it a budget, and as long as that purchases in within budget, you don't have to approve it. If it decides it's good or what you want, it'll automatically like buy it. And so you're you're seeing yeah so you're seeing the payment like the payment experience like evolve. Rodney: Wait, bro. I it's it's getting crazy. It's getting crazy. Bro Brylan: One is very interesting that Stripe is at the heart of this because Rodney: Bro, people are going to be able to flow, bro. People will be in a flow state, bro. Like, I don't think people understand, like, people are gonna be in a flow Brylan: W what do you what what which which which which experience do you prefer? Dre: Yeah. Rodney: state. Bro, I want the flow state experience. I wanna I want a frictionless experience. Like, they just like I want my life. I'm I Brylan: You just wanna give a budget and be like Rodney: I want my life In the I want my life things to come to me just I'm like, dang, this came to me at the right time. Damn, this like everything just coming to me Dre: Mm. Rodney: at the right time. Like like everything on my calendar at the right time. Like, bro, it's like cause bro, that's the closest you have to be a kid. That's the closest Dre: Hmm. Rodney: thing you have to being a kid again. See, when you a kid, right, you already know, okay, I'm getting up at this time, I go to I I go to school at this time, we I go these classes. I have you don't have no freedom. Your shit is already so your mind space, once cause you've already accepted what you gotta do. You can think about so much more. I find I find that a lot of times what people are struggling with these days of what why people are so burnt out, from what I can tell, not all of the situations, but a lot of it is how much adults have to manage. Dre: Yeah, I can see that. I think for me, I mean I I I I I do use some of these tools for discovery. but I think for me, I definitely want to see and approve a transaction before I go through. That's just me. I I'm not I'm Rodney: Ha ha ha. Brylan: Yeah. Dre: I I don't really I I don't really care for the automation on that on that front. Like I want I want to see it. But Brylan: Right. Dre: also too, like I'm not really like that heavy of a shopper like that. You know what I'm saying? Rodney: Yeah. Dre: So when I when I am shopping to buy something. I'm a little bit more intentional about it because I'm not really like a a shopper. I don't know. Maybe my maybe Nia might feel differently because she does more, you know what I'm saying, discretionary shopping than I do. When I'm buying something, I'm super intentional about what it is I want. I might want to do some research, do some comparison, you know what I'm saying? I might need to think about it. Brylan: But what Rodney is saying, all that research like just shows up for you. You didn't even know you were like really thinking about buying that product, but the research shows up. It's already in cart. Dre: Yes, but Rodney: Yeah, it it's gonna take a drag a while to to d I'll c I I'm telling you, for me, I'm I'm I'm gonna lean into it. I'm leaning into it. I'm gonna trust it. Dre: I don't I mean I feel like that that may be I mean that that that might be helpful that might be helpful if if it if if it can really do that really well, I just haven't seen that. I haven't even from Amazon, right? Like Rodney: Yeah, it's hard to trust. It's it's hard to trust. Dre: even from Amazon, right? Like you you go on Amazon right now and Amazon is probably one of the best e-commerce recommendation engines out there, right? It's because they got the most Brylan: Tax. Dre: data for the most part. Walmart has a lot too, but in terms of digital online, Amazon is probably key, right? If you go on Amazon right now, I'm sure they're recommending a bunch of shit to you you don't need. Ton of it. So it's like, can AI do something differently in terms of recommendations and timing than than what than what Amazon is doing? I mean, maybe, you know what I'm saying? So for me, Rodney: I see I see your point. Yeah, yeah. I see your point. I see your point. I see your point. Dre: for me, I I the intention behind the purchase, I rather it trigger for me, meaning like, hey, I'm looking for this thing. I'm go out and do the research. Like I'm looking on a marketplace right now to buy a new Rodney: Yeah. Dre: office share. Go out, have have all the conversations with all the different sellers, negotiate the price to me, do all that. Do do all that. You know what I'm saying? Narrow it down and just give me the best options. But like let me do the final like Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dre: let me let me do the final push of approval before you you Brylan: Mm-hmm. Dre: know what I'm saying, go out and make a purchase. Rodney: right. Right. I hear you. That kinda like that Dre: That's just how I would do it. That's just how I would do it. Rodney: that kinda reminds me of you know how Codex has those different modes where you can have different levels of approval. So you can it can ask you every time, it can it can pause, it it or it can Dre: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: just act without your approval. Dre's basically said he wants to a ask he'll he'll set it to ask every time. Yeah, ask every Dre: yeah. And un unless it's some shit I don't care about. Cause I w it's funny because the other day, right? Like and this is how instinct works. Instinct will do that. It'll be like let's say you want to send an email, it'll draft it. Unless you tell it intentionally, but it'll draft it, show it to you and be like, hey, this is good to go. I I Rodney: Yeah. Dre: asked Dot to send the email. That nigga just sent it. He I didn't even see the email. Like he just sent Rodney: Yeah. Dre: it. I didn't even know what he sent. I was like, I was waiting on a response. It was like It was like, yeah, I already did that. It was like five minutes. Rodney: Ha ha Dre: I was just waiting. I was just waiting. I'm like, shit. Let me go read it. And I went to go read it. I'm like, it's not bad. But I was like, the tone is a little bit, you know, the tone could have been a little bit better. But I was like, okay, cool. Rodney: Yeah. I I I get bothered by the tone. I get bothered by that. I get bothered by the way AI Dre: The tone was so direct. It it was so direct. I was like, damn, it could have been a little bit smoother with it, but it all right. It didn't even give me the option though. I was like, damn, all right. I was like, instinct would never do this. Instinct would never do this, all Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. No, it wouldn't. And I find actually Instinct actually has a seemingly slightly more natural way of drafting up of draft of drafting up stuff. So that's I can tell that's very Dre: It does. It does. It does. Rodney: deliberate on their part. Dre: It is, it Brylan: So Dre: is, man. Shout out to Instinct. Rodney: For sure. Brylan: Yeah, I think I I I think I think a a a few things I did want to call out about instinct because it's a yeah, it's it's it's gonna be interesting to see how like, you know, Meta reports on this too. But they had said that a billion dollars in transactions had already flowed through like instinct. the other thing that was very interesting too was like they said, you know, what was it, 40% of, you know users that sign up within three weeks put a card down to like make a purchase and then Rodney: Yeah, I'm in there. I'm in there. Brylan: and then they said on average folks who have a card attached are on average are spending a thousand dollars a month if we think about averages usually there's a ton of people who aren't spending and there's a ton that are spending and so it just kind of like pulls it but it's like bro what has Rodney: Yeah. I'm probably spending like two hundred, but I but I but I've only had my car on for like a week. And I think the the positioning of instinct makes it more useful than if Walmart or Amazon or Best Buy offers you more products because they have access to your life. That that's how it feels at least. Brylan: Mm. Rodney: Because it it's nothing there's nothing stopping Amazon from doing that. Amazon could sh sh shift their product in a way, maybe, and provide an experience where asking for your Gmail wouldn't be weird. But right now it would be. The way it's set up right now, it if it was asking for your Gmail, you'd be like, no, I'm not, I'm not giving it. No. Dre: I wonder why they haven't like positioned I mean maybe if they did it through Alexa, I could see some lane there. But even Alexa though, they Yeah, Rodney: right. And and then they can ask. Dre: maybe because they can maybe position Alexa more like a personal assistant, which I don't I don't use any Alexa products. All my shit is all Google. So I I don't really know. Rodney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alexa is the key. Dre: I don't really know how they position Alexa, but it seemed like Alexa would be like that personally s Rodney: That's the key actually. That's the key. Dre: a personal assistant. Which honestly I'm so I I'm a little shocked Amazon hasn't leaned more into that. I mean they have from a device standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I mean Alexa's ubiquitous from a home device standpoint. But I mean from a personal assistant, Rodney: Damn, what the whole time? Dre: personal assistant standpoint, like why wasn't Alexa instinct before instinct? You know what I'm saying? Rodney: What if the whole time the the the user experience was it just had to be a phone number and nobody nobody nobody nobody knew? What if the whole time like Alexa Siri and all that just had to be a phone number? Like across the board, no matter like what what if that's the the the user experience that the everybody missed? Dre: The kill the the killer the killer experience. Rodney: Yeah, that everybody missed. Like that'd be crazy, right? But Dre: Yeah. Rodney: it could be. Dre: That that yeah, that would be. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It seemed like Amazon just kind of missed it. They I mean again, Alexa is generating billions of dollars. So it's hard to it's Rodney: I think they should create a phone number. Dre: hard to say that they miss something, right? You mean you don't build a billion dollar brand off of nothing. But it does seem like they could have leaned more into that personal assistance space and really taken it. Especially again, y'all just talked Brylan: Tax. Dre: about e-commerce shopping. you we just talked about instinct ramping up to a billion dollars in e-commerce vo so clearly People do want to use this this product as d for product discovery for shopping. but again, may maybe the value Rodney: Yeah, I I think it's great. Brylan: I'm a Dre: maybe the value is not being in a single ecosystem. 'Cause I mean, I don't maybe the shopping wouldn't be as useful if it was only recommended Amazon products. Brylan: That's real. Rodney: That's real. Brylan: I feel like I feel like two people, two companies that really should be keeping the eye out. And I swear, man, their corp dev better be figuring out how to like work out a deal. Apple and Google, bro. Apple, bro, if Apple could literally just Rodney: yeah, for sure. For sure. Affle. Brylan: drop this on to all their devices, bro. Dre: Mm. Rodney: I think they should make a number. Brylan: Like you you talk you talk about come out of nowhere. Rodney: They won't though. They they don't have the speed. They don't have the speed. I in my opinion, I don't Dre: So Rodney: think they have the speed and they don't Brylan: But they got a new CEO. Rodney: He's hardware, man, so at the end of the day. Dre: hate the I I really I really don't like these type of acquisitions. Well I I battle I battle between them like the value from a from a corporate Rodney: They're killing. Dre: dev from a corporate dev standpoint. Like I get it from the from instinct standpoint yes they should definitely be open to an acquisition if something comes along Rodney: Yes. Dre: but then I think about it from Apple's standpoint I'm like why would they do this? Like what what what would be their strategic reason for buying instinct they already own the platform that instinct is already leveraging to get to several million Apple got billions of users. So what what what would be the actual value? Because from a from Brylan: That's a really good question. Dre: from a corporate standpoint, they could argue, and it's it's probably a clear argument. Instinct is just a rapper, right? So the real question is what model is Instinct actually using? Are they using their own proprietary model? Probably not, right? Like more than likely not, right? At a given this stage. Now, maybe that is the plan, but they're probably not right now. So, really, what are you actually buying? Right? You're buying an off the shelf wrapper that already has some distribution. On top of the platform that you own and control. So is there really a strategic advantage? Maybe. You know what I'm saying? Same for Google. I argue the same for Google. And this is my argument back when we used to talk about perplexity. And you used to make the same argument, like, Apple should buy them or edit it should buy perplexity. I'm like, this is a glory fry Rodney: Uh-huh. Dre: rapper. Like it's really not nothing there. If we're being for real, but maybe more with Brylan: I hear you. I hear you. Rodney: And Apple. Dre: perplexity now. A perplexity has definitely grown now. So maybe they got Some more proprietary stuff. But for a long time, it was just a router between different APIs and it was a nice little wrapper. That's what it was. Rodney: I th I think if somebody buys Instinct, I think it'll I think it'll die. but I think they should sell. I think they should sell Instinct. But but but but I think if somebody buys Dre: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it would die too. Rodney: I think I think it will die and it'll be kinda sad because I I it's I think it's great, but I think it will just die. For so I I don't know why I just think it will die. I just think it'll die. Maybe 'cause we've seen it so many times. It it just it Brylan: The the the the right so the reason why I say Apple in in in in Google, so like for Apple, I think it's obvious in terms of like their operating system in Siri, right? Like this easily could drop in and kind of like replace that and get that distribution. But I think what is interesting with those two companies is like they have hardware that exists in the real world already. Rodney: Right. Brylan: And so like even like, you know, very similar to you, Dre, like use Google Home, right? Like if you if all of if if if it it literally had that type of experience and could connect Dre: Mm-hmm. Brylan: with all the like that's a flow state type of experience. And so I I and so and Rodney: Yeah, well definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Brylan: so I think I the the case I would be making is because I agree with you from a court like it's actually funny because I I kinda go back to this corp dev exercise that they had me do do and I remember all the synergies and all that other shit. Yeah. From a court dev standpoint, they're probably like having a very hard time wrapping their head around like these valuations. Because the reality is like instinct makes no money, bro. And I think they've had the conversation Rodney: No. Yeah, they don't. Brylan: around like taking a percentage of the transaction. But the reality is like I'm I'm curious to see how that works because the transaction still still goes through strike. Sh Rodney: They should sell. Dre: I mean they could they they they could take they could take a percentage of that and Stripe makes it easy to do that. So Stripe provides all the tools, but again, if you're Apple, you already got the payment ecosystem and infrastructure set up. You know what I'm saying? Like you already got merchant relationships because they got the Apple credit card. They're they already have the process Brylan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dre: and they already have the process and infrastructure. You know what I'm saying? Like they they have all those contracts, relationships, they got all that already already in place. So if anything, I I think it'd be more so to bring the team on. You know what I'm saying? Maybe it's like you need a young, fresh, intense team kind of working on this. And so maybe the new CEO, I hear he wants to push them to be faster, innovate more, have more product releases. So maybe there's an argument that hey, maybe Apple just doesn't have that speed internally, which they probably don't. So maybe you do need to bring in some young similar to what Zuck did with and yeah, Brylan: The Andrew Wang do Dre: Andrew Wayne, right? Like for a minute we was at least I was kind of questioning whether or not that relationship made sense. But clearly it's produced some some decent value. You know what I'm saying? Brylan: They was just getting warmed up. Dre: Yeah, they just get warmed up. So sometimes you do need that outside young blood to come in that just doesn't have no corporate way of thinking, not not tainted by corporate policy, not tainted by how to do things the right way. They're just focused on building great product and getting to scale. Sometimes you do need that. So maybe there is a a a case for that internally at Apple. Rodney: Yeah. And it's just from an in instincts perspective, I definitely say so from them so so for sure in my opinion, because they if they don't know already, they will see the landscape is very, very, very, very, very competitive from Alexa to Siri to Claude to ChatGBT to Grocpa. I mean it's it's it's extremely competitive and these everybody in the game, even I I forgot Microsoft Copilot, basically everybody in the game has way more than them. They might think they're big, but every everybody else has way more than them and has like physical resources and lot more liquid cash, a lot more talent. they they They I I don't see how they make it. So so I think they should sell. I I'd be like the product, but you guys reminded me though that that Muse, I didn't like how Muse Muse the Statue Stripe integration, I didn't like it. Because Instinct doesn't do that. Instinct like take actually they might do that, but the way that it's done on Instinct versus Muse was different. Like basically I couldn't get Muse to to do a payment. So that was frustrating to me. So I just gave it up and I just gave it to Instinct, right? But Instinct You can just put in your car details. I don't know how the payment works at that point, but it's an instinct page that I just trust automatically. Like it's just a link. I don't really have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So well well yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brylan: You know what is crazy as hell just hearing this, I'm not gonna lie, is you're the security guy. Like so hold up, hold up. And so like back going back, like my head went back to the first day you showed us like safe and Rodney: Mm-hmm. Brylan: giving us the demo in email for these fishing, Rodney: Mm-hmm. Brylan: you know, the these these fishing scams or whatever. Rodney: Mm-hmm. Brylan: And you just trust the page on it that says instinct. Rodney: Yeah, 'cause the card I'm giving it is not it has it has protection. I'll feel like that. The card the card I'm giving it has protection. It's not and and also, by the way, I don't know how everybody else does their bank account, but I don't have like one single point of failure. Like you you need to hit le you need to hit like most of it like like like Dre: Yeah. Rodney: and even at that bro, I got I got I got crypto, like Dre: Yeah. Rodney: I I believe in financial resilience. Brylan: Ha ha. Rodney: So Yeah. Dre: Yeah. Rodney: So you can't take me out eat like nobody. 'Cause I ca all you gotta do is look at so I I would say yes, I hear I hear your point, but I wouldn't I I don't wanna frame we gotta be careful how we frame that because a lot of people I don't want them to think that to do what I'm doing. If they don't have this the back end infrastructure set up the way I got it set up, don't go if you got one Bank of America account and that's your only checking account. Yeah, I Dre: put your put your only debit your only debit card w with all your all your money on it. And you don't got you don't got no no no nothing set up. And you just got all your money. Yeah, that wouldn't be smart. Rodney: yeah, like let's I don't let's not frame it that way. So we right. But yeah. So, but but that that brings up a good point though, because I I did right now it wouldn't be hard. Right right now, the the security is that you know it's instinct when it texts you, so you wouldn't be confused. Like of course, people are gonna pretend to be your instinct agent. So people are gonna send you fake instinct, whatever. some people are gonna send fake instinct links. but You only trust it if you're clicking the instinct text thread. So I don't know, it'll get interesting. Brylan: Hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up. Hold up. Because correct me if I'm wrong here. But yeah, I'm pretty sure when someone sends you like a text message from like an unknown number, if they have like an image set, an image will like show and then do you do Rodney: No, I see your point. I see no I see your point. Brylan: do do you know the instinct number by heart? Rodney: No, I see your point. I see your point. I your point. and Brylan: 'Cause someone could get randomly Git text, have that logo in Rodney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They and they could do Dre: in I have instinct pinned. So I so Brylan: Yeah. Dre: I so I I'm making sure I'm going to that conversation thread. So if any if it's coming Rodney: Smart. Let me do that. Brylan: You got a pen too, Rodney? Dre: if it's coming from an unpinned then I know then I know something not right. Rodney: That's smart though. Dre: Yeah, I've gonna I'm I'm Brylan: Mm. Rodney: But actually that's something I wanted to talk to them about, but at the same time I can't just be talking to companies about about stuff like this because you know, I got a job. And my c my contract is very it it's very, you know, it I don't I don't have a loose contract. I don't have a super loose contract, I'll put it like that. Like Dre: Yeah. Rodney: what we work on, what I work on, and how I get involved, like that that that's under it it's it's the i it's it's tight. This is it's a tight contract for sure. Yeah. But very comfortable Brylan: Yeah. Yeah. Rodney: contract. I recommend everybody work at Immortals. Very, very comfortable contract. So that's why it's all fair. You know what I'm saying? Dre: Mm-hmm. Brylan: That's facts. That's facts. No, I guess th Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. Dre: What else we got? Brylan: the other the other thing I was gonna say too, just so we can wrap up on instinct, did you see that this week they rolled out their group chat feature? Rodney: idea but Dre: I did I saw that. Rodney: so what is it like what can you do in the group chat? Dre: I was thinking about we should add it to the Beeta Asta Bita Astar. Play around with it. Rodney: yeah, we might as well. We might as well. That's Brylan: Bro, low key. Rodney: smart though. That's actually really smart. Bro. Brylan: Low key? Yeah. Dre: Yeah. Just play around with it. Rodney: How do you pin bro I don't even know how to use a phone no more man? Dre: How do you pin it? You gotta press and hold on the on the conversation thread. And then it should pull up pin. Rodney: I see, I see, I see, I see. Dre: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brylan: I'm a so yeah, add add it to the group chat. So I have this Rodney: Yeah, yeah, that's why. Brylan: API that I created that I gave to like Rodney: Yeah, might as well add it. Brylan: Muse. I had I originally I had it set up to like an Apple shortcut. But essentially whenever I listen to like a podcast or like come across some piece of content, I just automatically save it to like the API. And you know, Dre: Mm. Brylan: whenever whenever I'm like, okay, what should we talk about on the podcast? I just hit it or whatever. and it pulls it. But yeah, we should do that because we're always dropping stuff in the group chat. And now it like yeah, I would I would be interested to see like if it went Dre: Yeah. Brylan: back over like a few months, what patterns it notices about the things that we talk about. Dre: Yeah, and and as Rodney has said, i Instync is Rodney: I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Dre: one of those products that is it's it's very useful. Very, very, very useful. So I think Rodney: It's very useful. Dre: it's a good on ramp to these proactive AI agents, versus something like Muse. Cause I know some people still have privacy concerns, trust issues with face what would meta, you know, concerns with how the agent Brylan: No, no, no. Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. Then I yeah. Dre: is. I I I get that. plus plus some people don't like downloading new apps. I'm kinda like that too. Like if I gotta download a new app, I'm just bad. I might use it for a little bit, Rodney: Mm. Yes. Dre: but after that first day I'm like I forget I even have it on my phone, bro. Like I'm just not good with bouncing Rodney: Yes. Brylan: Hey, it's coming to text. I'm a so I'm a muse guy. I'm a muse guy. I'm not gonna Dre: between apps. So Okay, okay, all right. Brylan: lie to you. Rodney: Really. Brylan: This shit different. Dre: So muse you th you think muse is better than instinct? It gotta be, right? Rodney: You think so? How, how, Brylan: Yeah bro. Yeah bro. Rodney: how, how, how Brylan: This shit So I think I think I think part of it is like Don't get me wrong I like the text interface for like input I don't necessarily like it for like output that I want to track over time. And so say for example, like with you know Muse, I'm able to go just kind of like brain dump, you know, maybe it's something that's coming out of a meeting that's turning into a project. It automatically just like literally what I'll do is I'll copy my like granola notes and I'll have it read it. And like it'll automatically like spin up either like a goal or just like some deadline ish tracking towards. and like just nudge me along the way or just go get started on whatever that work is, like, you know, whatever that subtlask may be for like one of the larger tasks or whatever. That's what I love about it is like I'm still in the position of being able to kind of like quarterback things when I need to. And so I would actually I would actually equate the experience to like being an offensive coordinator or head coach calling plays, but you got Tom Brady or Peyton Manning as your quarterback. When they on the field, whatever they see, they can still call to play. But like I still have a strategy. I still have an you know, a purpose that I'm trying to achieve with on with with with this field that I'm on. And so that's how I would equate like the muse experience so far. and the other thing too is it has a feed. I ain't even gonna lie, that shit, man, that can become such a amazing product. Dre: I didn't know I had a feed. Is that new? Or did they I don't even use music like that. I mean I used it for a couple Brylan: Yeah, I think I think it is new. I Dre: of days. Brylan: I just I just I just started tailoring and when I say bro, it'd be Dre: I see. Brylan: finding some gems. Like you can literally t Dre: I see. You know Facebook Facebook good for defeat. You know, they they mastered that shit. Brylan: Bro, the f bro, they're they're not about to lose the feed here. Dre: Nah, nah, nah. They're not losing that to nobody. Interesting. Interesting. Do you Rodney: I know what it is. It it's Dre: use do you use dot? Brylan: No, I haven't got the dot yet, bro. I haven't got the dot yet. I went to set up codex again yesterday and just continued to run into the same fucking issues of like, man, I really, Cloud Code really has me locked in. Rodney: I just realized, Dre: Damn, I feel sorry for you, bro. Rodney: well, these agents should be on every platform. Brylan: I and you know what it is? It's the routines. It's the scheduled task. If there was just an easy way for like and I try to point codecs out, like hey, go look at my you know, use computer use, go look at my clock code. If you can import these different scheduled tasks in, great. But I need my schedule task. I need my schedule. Dre: It wasn't able to it wasn't able to do it for you? Brylan: No. No. Dre: Mm. Brylan: No. It could it could it could access like the clock code like file on my on my computer and like bring over threads and stuff. So that was great. Like I could have my conversations there, but in terms of like automatically having those like scheduled tasks and it's literally like fifty or so, and it's like, bro, I'm telling you right now, I can't have those bitches break. Dre: Yeah, you locked in. Rodney: Yeah. I bro, I hate when the automation breaks, bro. I I get bro I'm so lazy bro. Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: I I hate when the automation breaks. 'Cause you gotta go actually go in and actually do some work and fix it Brylan: Yeah, you gotta go like Rodney: and watch it and and and tweak it and it's nah. Brylan: Yeah, I can't I Dre: Yeah. Well hopefully one day you get a chance to switch over to Codex, bro, 'cause I I love Codex. Dots has actually been pretty useful. It's very proactive Brylan: Really? Dre: in a similar fashion to Instinct or Muse. I don't use Muse as much, but very similar to Instinct. Very similar. Brylan: Mm-hmm. Rodney: I I I'm starting to realize that these agents in these bots should really be accessible on every platform where there's messaging. Because it just seems as though why not have dots in your text messages or being able to to send a message from WhatsApp or whatever Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: platform you're on. Like it's almost like the these things should be almost everywhere. And Brylan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rodney: I don't know there's like a central place where they're gonna pull your information from. I mean your Gmail's a is a good place, but I don't know. This is that's this is gonna this can get this this whole this whole thing's gonna get very interesting. But but I'm loving it though. Brylan: On on on on on on that piece, I think there was this Stanford professor who over the weekend put out or a recent research paper that he was working on. But it's called In Persona EMV. and basically it literally was getting at what what value emerges when you have access to where folks basically, you know, message people, you know, WhatsApp, iMessage, Slack, whatever. and what can you do to train models? And so what his research proved was he was able to train a twenty seven billion parameter model. And basically what he did is he he took all the personal messages and he essentially created like a like user model and then used that to train the model to you know for whatever that individual user was. And it actually like on benchmarks, it actually ended up beating some of the like larger frontier models on like personalization and like usefulness within that like individual context. And so I feel like there's a whole world that could be explored in terms of like personalization of what these experiences look like. And I mean if you can achieve it with smaller models, that whole idea of like how do you make I AI affordable for anyone to be able to kind of access it, like that's probably gonna be a path some of these labs might, you know, go down because you know, it'll it'll help with the costs. Dre: Mm. Man. We just feels like we're just getting started with these agents and they're so good. They're they're as they're they're currently as bad as they'll ever be. So in the next six to twelve months, it's gonna be crazy. It's a crazy race. Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: Yeah, s seriously, seriously. so something else was kind of interesting that of that popped up over the last few days where OpenAI had this well right now it's a it's a private model, they haven't released it, but they did release these results on GitHub where It's under the repository math and essentially it's just a bunch of different proofs and manuscripts or mathematical manuscripts that show different math problems that they was that the model was able to solve. So on the surface it's kind of boring, but I think the reason why this got a lot of attention. And a lot of people are talking about it is because one, they were able to to solve a lot of these math problems with just one prompt. Now it wasn't AI agent, but it was just one AI agent and one prompt. Whereas in the past, some of the math a lot of the math they were solving, a lot of times research labs or frontier labs are running thousands of AI agents to solve these problems. And so they're saying there's sh there's just this one model that they haven't put out that had one AI agent and a prompt and it was able to solve all these problems in one go, pretty much. Now that is much more efficient, which is sus which essentially is suggesting that there could be a lot more science that could be discovered that could be things that improve the code itself. So the code could be more optimized, more efficient. It could improve chips in some ways, chip development, potentially physics and all these other things. Maybe even biology. So I think this is very technical, but it's very important for us to kind of bring to light. Dre: Mm. Brylan: Yeah, this is so I guess yeah a c a qu a question that I that I have. So you're saying that are they looking for people to solve these problems in coordination with them and as a result they're leveraging that to train Rodney: They're already soft. Brylan: though they're already solved. Rodney: Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. So they they had there's these these problems that some of them have like already been solved in general, but just maybe there's like a different way that they're going about it. but there's maybe like four hundred problems though. So or maybe even more. So I don't know all the all of them but I actually I don't know a single one, but I I I never heard of any I I've never heard of any of these problems. But but apparently that these problems have have existed. They're very important. These show a certain level of competency with the these unreleased models, essentially. And it's suggesting this is more so about what it suggests is. as far as the development of AI from a chip standpoint, from a code standpoint, and but then also any other science as well. And this act this this sh just came out yesterday. It's is in a repo. Brylan: So so so so let me ask this question, right? Because once again I'm just making sure I haven't I haven't even read up on this. I'm just making sure I understand. So Rodney: Yeah, yeah. Brylan: they they had this model that they had not released Rodney: Yes. Brylan: and they got it to solve math problems that couldn't that weren't solved before. Rodney: I believe so. I I could let's let's double check. Let's double check. I think it might be in mix though. Brylan: Cause 'cause the thing I'm trying to understand is if the problems were not solved before by human beings and the AI solves it, how do we know it's actually solved? Like a human cause wouldn't wouldn't theoretically we already Dre: Mm. Rodney: okay, so basically I I see I I see. funny, funny, Brylan: Or we just or we saying these problems couldn't be solved because of the resources? Rodney: funny, funny. Okay, so this is what is going on. They're saying that there is at least They're saying that they're saying that there's seven hundred papers of problems that they have that that they've put out there. And OpenAI has making the claim that these are problems that have not been solved. They're making this claim. Now, mathematicians have not finished checking to your point, mathematicians are currently checking all the all the work. So I don't Dre: To verify. Rodney: Yeah. So yeah. So but they're but open that's claiming that that they they did they did solve That's what they're claiming. So Dre: Hmm. Brylan: Okay. Dre: I mean, I guess this is how most math problems get solved, right? You solve it, you post it's kinda like back in the day, you show your work, right? It gets peer reviewed amongst other people in the community, and then I guess you determine if there's a consensus, right? On if that's the answer. Rodney: Right. Right. Dre: I guess that's that's how most scientific problems get agreed upon, right? Rodney: So then so that now that imagine if they determined all the problems were solved correctly. So now to Brylan: Yes Ru. Rodney: to what extent can they can can the agent continue to solve new math problems? Brylan: So hold up, hold hold up hold hold up, hold up, hold up. 'Cause this is very Rodney: Like w where we going to? Like where where are we headed? Brylan: Hold up, this is very interesting because if we think about where things have been so far, right? Like we had Chat GPT and then we got to the reasoning models. The reasoning models started getting better because they doubled down on code and and math. The reason why they doubled down is because they they these these could be checked, they could be verified. Now what we're seeing is before you had human beings who were like creating the initial input. And originally they had like these fuzzy AIs that were good at verifying some problems, not all. But here in this instance, they have AI that basically, if if if all 700 or whatever come back and the mathematicians are like, nah, they they didn't lie. It's it's spot spot on. Like even if they come and Rodney: Yeah. Brylan: say any number above zero, that is still impressive. But now Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. Brylan: the interesting thing is they flipped it and they have the human beings check. Rodney: Yes. Now now they have a super researcher, super intelligent researcher or a super intelligent math researcher that dictates what the whole community is looking at. Brylan: Damn. Dre: Mm. Mm. Brylan: Yo, yo, yo, Dre: Mm. Brylan: that might have been one of the biggest okie dokes. Rodney: it's crazy. But see, but see, but then I can start to see how that can start to create a lot of intelligence across a lot of fields. That could Dre: Mm. Rodney: create a lot of Brylan: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up, hold up, hold up. Because once again, like the way they think is these these these these scientists, these researchers in these labs, they think in recipes. So the recipe here is we we we we we now know what capabilities we need to explore a field where something is checkable. We now have we now we Rodney: Yes, yeah. Where something travel, yes, yes. Brylan: so think about it. They could easily probably go do this in like the labs, which I like I've always Rodney: For sure. Brylan: questioned. Like I've seen the the monetary value, the economic value in going after the life sciences or even finance, the way these companies have been like going after it. But like when you flip it and you apply this thinking of like, no, the model was so fucking literally that fucking good. And we have 700 something unsolved problems to prove it, and it can work here. And all we need you to do is verify. And think about it. They probably are going to at one point, because I think the thinking is going to be: if I can have you verify that problems you couldn't solve were right, why do I even need you to verify anymore? Like now you have the full loop of just like Dre: Mm. Brylan: it's just human direction. The human was at the beginning saying, these are gonna, these are the problems we're gonna solve. Rodney: We at that point and I I I at that point do we even know it imagine it's so good that it solves all the remaining problems. Let's say there was like ten thousand and it's able to solve them in the month. What what next? What where what what problem what next? Do we tell it to Dre: Mm. Rodney: look for problems? Or do we or do Brylan: I no no no I think I th I think the move Dre: It's it's gonna come up with it's it's gonna come up with its own problems. It's gonna start discovering problems Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: Okay. Dre: do I I think the next level is discovering problems that we've never even gotten to yet. And do we Brylan: And they're real. Dre: do yeah, do we yeah, exactly. That we haven't even conceived because we just haven't had the time. You know, we we Brylan: Yeah. Dre: we just haven't had the time, the resources to compute all those things. It's probably multiple things, right? The the combination of all of these things coming together, right? That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I I don't know. I'm thinking it's gonna come up Brylan: So Dre: with its own problems. Brylan: how does that not turn into a simulation? Because one could argue at that point, at that point, we are now taking direction from the models, from the intelligence, from the silicon. So like how does it not become yeah, a simulation where it's like, hey, because they discovered this, we didn't, and they're like, Y'all should go pursue this? Do we have free will anymore? Or are we on flow state, like you were saying? Rodney: We're gonna flow state bro. We're gonna we're gonna we don't we're gonna we're gonna we're not gonna it's not gonna be separation between between us and the in the and the super intelligence. It's just gonna be one experience, bro. You but you're barely gonna even feel your body, bro. I'm serious, man. Bro, it because you gotta look at 'cause it's it's not about the it happening once or twice. It it's these loops are constant big jumps. These are big jumps. And this is why they're getting I see why they're scared and they they don't they they they don't want to lose control. Cause these are big jumps. Is each jump now is another huge jump and they're not like slowing down and the look I'm reading into some of the math right I don't understand I haven't looked into the specific problems, but I was looking at why some of this stuff can be important. And some of those problems can improve AI training, the the math and Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: the chips, graphics, etc. These these are things that that if those improve, then essentially now you have better theoretically, more intelligent S super intelligence, and it's just this recursive loop constantly. And it's just mind blowing. Dre: The model yeah, the model the models are gonna get to the point where they're just building themselves, improving themselves, doing their own research, coming up with new theories, discovering shit we've never discovered, Rodney: Right. Dre: finding new problems, new patterns in the universe. Rodney: So at that point, are we supposed to believe that I mean w w what what what is truly the limit to intelligence? It's hard to say. It's hard to say. Brylan: What is intelligence? Rodney: God be up beyond God. Dre: I don't think there's I don't I don't think there's in I don't think there's any limit to it to be honest. I was having this conversation with some friends this weekend 'cause my my boy is like, he's a he's a bear against NVIDIA. He thinks Brylan: Mm. Dre: NVIDIA is like gonna not be around for a while. And I'm like, to me, to bet against NVIDIA to me is betting against intelligence. That that that Rodney: Yeah, for sure. Dre: means that we've already kind of that me to me it it believes that you've already you've kind of think that we've already hit peak intelligence. And he said to me, he was like I don't think I can make my job any more efficient. And I'm like, Rodney: Yeah, that's crazy. Dre: I'm like, but it's funny because I'm like, the holy grail for that company that you work for is that the AI replaces you. That's the ultimate that's the ultimate level of eff of of efficiency. And we haven't even gotten Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dre: to that point yet, 'cause you still got a job. So my thing Rodney: Right. Dre: is like, well, we haven't we we cannot have hit peak intelligence if you work remote and you still have a job. So to me, we we still have a long way to go there. So Rodney: Exactly. Dre: I so To go back to the thing, I I think intel I don't think there is a peak. And if there is, we just haven't discovered it yet. Maybe that's the thing. Maybe that's what AI will help us kind of figure out what our limits are. Cause as they currently stand, there doesn't seem to be one. It seemed like the more compute you apply, the more electricity you apply, the more training data you apply, these things just get better and better and smarter and smarter. And it doesn't seem to be an end in sight. Rodney: If that's the case, then we might start getting exposed to things that seem like magic, like extreme extreme because there's levels of intelligence that create magical experiences. I mean, even for example, this right here, what we're doing right here is a new magical magical you know, we take it for granted, but it's to be in all live, real time talking to people across the world from different locations. Dre: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rodney: You know, like like you know what I'm saying? So intelligence if i if there if if you can if we can really get to this really high level, i it's no telling what the experience that's why I say I I I think that health is gonna be autonomous. I think everything's gonna be autonomous. And I think you're not gonna I I I don't think people are gonna have to be autonomous, but I think in a world of an autonomous future I think Friction is just gonna I I think people in general are are gonna be lazy. But they're not gonna be lazy from a standpoint of of of like deterior deterioration. I think it j it'll just be everything's gonna require less effort. It'd be effortless, Dre: Mm. Brylan: Mm. Rodney: you know, it's just everything's less it's just less effort. and we'll be thinking about things we never thought of. That that's that's what I think. Brylan: Mm. Well Rodney: Yeah, and I don't think people I I think no one will go broke. I think no one I think nobody will go broke. Brylan: I mean the listeners here are probably gonna be like, Yeah, I don't know what the hell rotten on. I don't know. In this in it in in this economy Rodney: Yeah, I don't think anybody go broke. I don't think anybody go broke. Well well Well no, not in this economy. The econom the the the economy that that is coming after this one collapses. Brylan: That's gonna emerge. Rodney: Yeah, cause ca one's about to collapse as as you can tell. We can we can see it collapsing, right? We So there so Yeah. Brylan: So hold up, hold up, hold up. How how how is instinct, yeah, like walk me through this? Like what's the what's the instinct flow state of getting out of a recession? Rodney: You just trust the agent, bro. You just trust the agent, bro. People don't get to a point where they the only their best bet would be to trust to trust a money-making agent, bro. No, for real though, right? Right. Bro, Dre: I mean you gonna have to, yeah, you gotta you gonna have to. You gonna have to. Rodney: pick the best bar in the best bar the best, pick the best pick the best agent. People have different ones. Some agents will make you money, some won't. You know, like pick the best one. There's various different tasks maybe you might have to do. I mean, bro, it people are not gonna go broke, bro. It it's gonna be weird, Dre: This recession is Rodney: man. Dre: This recession is gonna be interesting. I think I don't I don't think everybody's gonna be making money. I think that's the thing. And f in fact, I think the dispar the disparity is is just gonna be worse than what it is. I I think it's gonna be worse than what it is right now. I think people people who are making money will continue to print money. 'Cause I know some people right now who have w when we say like this economy, they have no idea what we're talking about. They're like, What are you Rodney: Ha. Dre: talking about? Like this th this is the most money I ever made. They're like, yo, I'm I'm up, I'm good, everything is flowing up and to the right. And then I see some people that is like, Nigga, if I if I don't get paid this next check, like I'm I'm I'm gonna be I'm gonna be fucked. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna be in some trouble. So I think that's just only gonna continue to to continue to widen. I just I don't I don't see I don't see that changing. 'Cause I I just think Rodney: Yeah. Dre: no matter how easy you make the tools, I still feel like and again maybe this is maybe this is a short term view. So maybe thirty, forty years from now, it looks different. But I still feel like there's a a big apprehension from everyday people to adopt these tools. And so if you're if if you're not adopting them and you're not getting the value out of it, then I don't see how you grow any wealth from it. Rodney: No, yeah, I agree. Brylan: So hold on. To that to that point, did y'all have a chance to go through the Adresen state of the market report that they put out? Rodney: No, I saw it though. Dre: I glanced at it. Yeah, I glanced at it, but Brylan: Yeah. Dre: I didn't go through it all fully. Brylan: I definitely recommend people go through. It's it's obviously it's them playing up their book, but it is very interesting to see like the data behind the beliefs that are driving their investment decisions. but one stat that I wanted to bring up, you know, going back to like everyday people, I think it was around like two percent of everyone that uses A right AI right now is paying for it. Right? And so Rodney: I saw that, I saw Dre: Two per two percent? Rodney: that, I saw that, I did see that. That's crazy, I saw that. Brylan: Yeah, it's like two, two and a half percent are paying for like paying subscriptions. Dre: Mm-hmm. Brylan: And so Rodney: Such a low such a low such a low number. It's crazy. Brylan: Cause you and and and think about it. So that means all of y'all are on the free plan. Yo, you are missing out. Dre: Right. Rodney: Yeah. I know. I know they they they're they're on four The they're they're all four Dre: I know. Don't even know. Brylan: Bro, like what we've been talking what bro, Dre: Yeah. Brylan: what we've been talking about on the podcast? Dre: Most people most people won't even use dot. They won't even use dot. Rodney: Yeah. Dre: They don't even know what we're talking about. They don't even see dot in the in the in the s in the and you know, they don't even see it in the tie bar. People probably trying to go to it right now. They're not even gonna see it. They checking for updates. Nah, you ain't you ain't gonna see it. You ain't gonna see it. Brylan: Hey, hey, hear me out. Hear me out. Y'all gotta just Rodney: Bro. That's crazy. Brylan: y'all just gotta go ahead and chalk up that twenty dollars and count it as another bill. Rodney: Make a decision. Make the decision. Nobody that makes a decision on the twenty dollars really ends up regretting it because it's because Brylan: No. Rodney: it at the very least, you're investing in yourself, right? It's not it's not just about giving the money to a company. You want to be familiar with you want to be familiar with AI. Plain and simple. You want to be familiar with AI and you want to be ahead of the game on that. You know, you may not be building anything or doing anything crazy, but you want to be with that two percent. That two what what it was two percent, right? Okay, yeah, that is so that's what that's right about what Drake what Drake's talking about. 98% of people are gonna be fucked up. And two percent it's gonna be straight. The the two percent that's fair. We we straight. We straight. That that that that that frictionless experience, it'll be a choice though. Like I said, if you want to do shit the hard way, the manual way, the slow way, don't get that twenty dollar plan. Wait, just wait. Brylan: Bro, this how and this how you make the twenty dollars make sense. One less shot, one less cocktail a month. You got your twenty dollars. We know y'all like to be outside. We know y'all like to Rodney: Yeah, a cocktail. Bright. Brylan: be outside. You just gotta you just gotta trim it back. Maybe you gotta eat out a little less. You need to be paying for this, bro. But the reality the reality is, like I do think this brings up into question, right? Like, especially if you're not an anthropic. Or an open AI where a significant chunk of their revenue is coming from enterprise. They have businesses that have shown that they're willing to pay for this. Yes, that's even in threat, being threatened right now because of open source, and that's a whole other conversation. But if you're an instinct, a meta muse, like what what is the monetization here? Rodney: Yeah, I don't know for for Dre: Yeah. I th I think meta is probably better positioned. I think they can withstand it. And again, me and my boy this weekend, he was like we were kind of talking this out game game theory and it I think meta can probably they have I mean, they have one of the most amazing businesses. It's been growing at a crazy rate. I think their ad revenue even passed Google's ad revenue. So they're growing like crazy. So I think they have a little bit more patience to figure out a business model. Maybe the business model for them doesn't change for how they monetize their other meta properties. Right, or how they monetize WhatsApp. But, you know, Instinct as a startup, they don't have that luxury, right? You know, they have to build that ad network, right? Or they gotta partner with somebody else, or they gotta build the subscription business and then get people to subscribe to it, which from the based on the numbers, most people aren't paying for or they don't have a a high willingness to pay. Rodney: Yeah, I I can't see them winning. I I can't s I just can't s I can't see they Brylan: How did they get to a ten billion dollar valuation? And I Rodney: They can. They they they can do that. But they're but th but they're not gonna go they they're they're not gonna go past forty. They're not gonna go past forty, bro. Brylan: I'm saying how how how how did how did they get to that now? Cause right now they're sitting there sitting around a hundred thousand users. Rodney: Power the two billion in in transactions. It it's it's Dre: Wait, they only got a hundred thousand users? That can't be that can't be true. Brylan: Yeah. Yeah. That's Rodney: Two two it's just probably what the w it's probably Brylan: their that's their most reported on the fifth. They're growing 10% day day over day. Rodney: Yeah, so it's a good product, man. I think investors use it and then th Dre: Yeah. Rodney: they it's a and and it's wealthy people using it. So it's I mean Brylan: Once again, once again, these valuations are very simple math, bro. You got some revenue and you got some value on that revenue, the multiple. Dre: No. And it and it's not simple math in startup world. You know that. In in regular business world, it's simple math. In startup world, it's not simple. You know that. Rodney: Yes. Yeah, it's follow it's narrative. It's narrative, man. The narrative, bro. Brylan: So but once once again, once again, there's little to no revenue. So we're Rodney: That's what I used to sell. Brylan: saying that the the the multiple or the value on instinct right now is astronomical, but they're going Dre: Yeah. Brylan: to have to grow into that revenue. Where's that come from? Rodney: Bro, we know that I we know bro, why do we even bro then I I I almost never do this, but I don't think instinct can survive as its own long lasting long term product. What what does that product look like? What is that pri o Brylan: Well did you did you see Open Instinct get rolled out this weekend? Rodney: I I did see that. I did see that. Yeah, Dre: I saw that too. Rodney: I saw that. Yeah. Brylan: Yeah. Rodney: 'cause where do what is Instinct? Okay, you got us with the text messages. Okay, cool. I had I had a friend that was in that was interviewing at Instinct for the iOS position. They have a i now they have an iPhone app. Okay, so then so what you gonna do, the Android app. Then I think I saw like a a Mac app. So what do you so where are y'all going with this? Where where i i is it it can it really be its own product that you'll continue to pay for. I do think though the way that they have they they they kind of get you, they know a lot about you. But you can ask it to pull out all that information. So and Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: and maybe transfer that over to another agent or whatever else. So I think the un unless they make it hard to transfer that information, then Dre: Maybe the play I mean, maybe the play is MA. I mean that is a viable exit strategy. You know, not every business gotta build into, you know, the next ten billion dollar year revenue business. Sometimes Rodney: That's what I would do. Dre: the MA play is aqua i is MA. I mean look let's look at WhatsApp for example. It's not apples to apples because WhatsApp did have some revenue 'cause they had a little bit of a subscription business, but it wasn't overwhelming. And it certainly didn't necessarily justify whatever the revenue was. at the time of that nineteen billion dollar acquisition that Facebook made of them, it definitely didn't justify that. So, you know, sometimes the play is MA for for for whatever reasons, if you're able to achieve a certain distribution. Brylan: So hold up, hold up. If I'm instinct, this is the case study I'm reviewing right now. And it's Clubhouse. Clubhouse. Very, very, very similar. Rodney: Yeah. Brylan: Had crazy ass hype. Had crazy ass distribution. Quickly created a lot of paper value. Had the opportunity to be acquired, too. at a four Dre: yeah. Brylan: billion dollar valuation from Twitter Dre: Yeah. Brylan: in A. Rodney: only reason why they didn't work because people weren't weren't gonna be on audio like people were only on audio because of the okay, yeah, because of the pandemic. I got you. Yeah. Brylan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rodney: I got you. Yeah. Dre: They could they should study that and they should they should learn from that, which is when when everybody is willing to come to the table with you then go go towards the exit door. That's the time to fold fold your fold your hand fold your Rodney: Right, yeah. Bro. Dre: hand and go to the exit. Rodney: Bro, just Brylan: Bro. Rodney: pass that shit off pat because because you know what's I mean, they're young, so I I'm actually interested to see what they will do. Brylan: Bro, you're 23. You're 23. Go play the game again. Dre: But think about it too though. If you but see the on the other side, on the flip side, on Plan Devil's Advocate, Rodney: They don't know how much money it is. Dre: Plan Devil's Advocate, if you're able to sell some sec Rodney: Ten billion now. Dre: if you're able to sell some secondaries, let's say you're able to take off, let's say ten to twenty million dollars, right? You twenty one, I don't know how old they are. They're in their early twenties and you and you able to put in ten, twenty million. Rodney: What if can get a guaranteed three hundred million? If Brylan: Ha ha ha. Rodney: you could if you if you could get that Dre: That's different though. That's different. That's different. That's different. That's different. That's different. But but but but but but but if Brylan: Hold it. Dre: you go from but if you go from having no bread to all of Rodney: Yeah. Dre: a sudden you you got 20 million, that does give you that Rodney: Tony's law is loud. Dre: that that does give you more energy to be able to like, you know what? I I I I I can play this game a little bit. I can play this game a little bit. And if shit don't work out, if shit don't work out, bro, you up t you up twenty. Come on, you up twenty. Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. I still got twenty. Wait. Dre: You was zero the other day. Brylan: But but then but hold up hold up hold up but hold up but hold up hold up hold up hold up but but Rodney: Yeah, I see. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. Dre: Now you have twenty? Brylan: you saw a paper in front of you that said 300 million that day Dre: No, I get it. I Rodney: If I Dre: I I I get it, but I'm just saying, like, to to play to pla to play that to play that game. Like, yeah, yeah, Brylan: So I'm really down 280. Dre: of course, of course, of course. The three hundred looks better, but I'm saying though, okay, look, you got hundreds of millions of dollars in cash in the in the bank right now, right? To at least try to take a shot at something, right? You've been able to take twenty million off the table. I'm I'm estimating ten to twenty million off the table. I mean Again, if you're gonna Rodney: If you if Dre: li life is about taking swings and taking shots. You know what I'm saying? So Rodney: If you can see if you could honestly see a path and you're not making up no shit in your head then if Dre: I can see it. Rodney: if then go ahead and kick the 20. But if you but but if you Brylan: That but that path Rodney: see that 300 million, you better think about if you actually see something or you just you drinking your own, like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Dre: Yeah, if it's bullshit. It was bullshit. Brylan: It got it gotta it gotta be clearer than the path of 300 million. And I think the last time I no, and this is the crazy. I think it was I think it was Rodney: Right, right, right. The all I gotta do is side. Brylan: an investor from Sequoia actually, but they had broken down their cap table, and I think they're sitting somewhere at around 50 to 60 percent ownership. the the the the the founder still. Bro, that's five to six Dre: shit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brylan: billion dollars if you sold at whatever you're at right now. We know you're gonna get Dre: Yeah. Brylan: a little markup. Dre: Yeah. Well if he can sell Brylan: Yeah, bro. Dre: it for ten billion that's a different that's a different we talk. Rodney: I mean sell that. Sell that. Dre: You're talking different numbers now. We're talking different numbers. Which honestly, he probably he probably could get that off for ten billion. He probably should just call it Jensen. Rodney: He he thinks he thinks he's building a trillion dollar company. Dre: He should just call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does think that. Which I don't blame him. I I don't blame him. If you got 20 milli 20 million, take the shot. Rodney: You know he that's what he he s I don't blame him. He's twenty. He's he's twenty. He's twenty bro. He's twenty bro I don't blame him 'cause he's twenty twenty he's twenty three, whatever. He's so of course he's talking about I'm gonna build a trillion dollar company. It's like bro, he's just he's delusional. He's delusional. Like Bro, he's bro, he said Brylan: Bro, go take go t Bro. Go take that shot with six billion. Like, yeah, like Dre: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you could take a different swing. You could take a different swing. Rodney: He I I can t I can this this founder, I like him, but I you can just tell he thinks he has it in the fucking bat. He he thinks he already he won, bro. He has not won. Brylan: I'm can I can I Dre: I like Brylan: can I c wen bro, I think when open AI rolls out Rodney: How do you beat Apple when they when they get their mature product in and Google and it just it's just Brylan: Apple gon Apple gonna rewrite some some law. Apple right now, it would not surprise me if they're lobbying in Congress to like impact some law associated with like AI and like phone numbers. Rodney: Right. Exactly. Like it it can get tricky. It can they they can make it Brylan: Cause that's what happened, that's this happened a few years ago with Twilio, where like before when you used to go to Twilio or any of those to Linux and get a you literally could get a phone number that day. Now you got Rodney: It's easy easy, easy. Brylan: to go through KYC verification. Dre: That's a lot. Rodney: Yeah, j it's s it's sad. It's it's it's confusing. It's confusing. It Dre: Just to do text messaging, you gotta do a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Brylan: Just to do text messaging. Rodney: used to be simple. Dre: Yeah. Well we'll s we'll we'll we'll we'll see. Let's let's continue to monitor, let's continue to watch. Hopefully they can they they they maintain relevance and they don't die Rodney: But I love the product. Dre: die off into the abyss. but right now they're up, so we'll we'll see man. Brylan: How does how Rodney: And Brylan: does how does anthropic respond? Like does anthropic do you see them getting in like coming out with their own version of like dots or like Muse or Instinct or? Rodney: They tried to already, right? Didn't they already have something that can make it you could add card to your to your works your Slack or something? Didn't they? Brylan: Yeah, you you you you have that, but I'm thinking, it that just felt Rodney: You think they should have like a they they I think they might be concerned about the user experience. I think they already have agents and bots, but the they they probably want they're probably s they're seeing what's going on and maybe they don't feel the need to hop out and compete on this particular user experience right now. Or maybe they I don't know. but or maybe they're just taking their time a little bit more to get the the the 'cause There are multiple ages, they have different ways of going about them, right? Brylan: So let me let me ask this question. Does the experience for consumer versus like a business use case look different for the dots product? Rodney: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For example like I I think Insect is a very consumer type of product. I think dots I it comes off a bit more like professional. like a professional tool. Like Brylan: That's been your experience, bro? Cause you said you're using it. Dre: that's how I use it. I don't know if it I haven't really tried to adopt it from a personal assistant standpoint. I mean I I I use it as a personal assistant, but I use it more for work stuff. I use Instinct more for personal stuff, but that's just the way I kind of set it up. I I wasn't like intentionally trying to segment it that way. That's just the way that it just happened to be. So I don't know. The product experience feels similar to me in terms of like the proactiveness, the ability to just kind of go off and do stuff. on its own and then come back and update you. Like it it feels it feels very similar, so I'd imagine it can have that personal approach. But yeah, I I think maybe the the experience of instinct being in iMessage does feel a little bit more consumer approachable than than maybe Dots Dots feels. Brylan: Gotcha, gotcha. Rodney: Yeah, that's how yeah, yeah. I th I think that's how I get from her. Yeah, it's still early. Dre: Yeah. But it's still early. It's still early. It's I've only been using dot for like a week. maybe a week and a half. So it's it hasn't been too too long yet. Rodney: I I'm I'm excited about all this and I hope I hopefully more people adopt some of these things. I think that instinct they they're they're also limiting their growth, as well too, because they're giving away the product for free. They can't just grow too they they have to stagger their growth. So I think even some people can even sign up through invite still. So so Dre: Yeah. Yeah. They're fighting for compute, man. Every every every token they fighting for it, man. For all. Rodney: Exactly. So so it it it's so I think they should sell but but yeah, we'll we'll we'll keep watching, we'll see what's going on. I I love the product though. I I do and I and I like the founder too. I just think that, you know, I just think that he's done enough. He's he's changed the game. And take t take take take the win. Take the win. 'cause you don't want to be forgotten 'cause he instinct can it It just seems like a c i it might be something that we never talk about again in in two years. It it's Dre: Yeah. Rodney: but yeah, yeah, I think we covered pretty much everything though. Yeah. Dre: Yeah, this was a good one. Well we can yeah, we can wrap it up there, yeah. Rodney: Yeah, so that's