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On Theme and the Power of Black Storytelling · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I've never told you production. iHeartRadio and today we are
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: so so happy for this episode is an exciting episode
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: because we are joined by our friends. We don't know
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: you very well, Katie, but we will and we're going
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to be friends. I'm Mekkadie and Eves Yes, who are
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the hosts of the new podcast on Theme. Welcome, Thank
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: you so much for joining us.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you happy to be here.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Yay, yes? So can you tell us a little bit
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: about yourselves and how you met and then how this
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: podcast came to be?
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: So I will say just the very barest minimum about myself,
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: since I think a lot of your listeners will already
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: familiar with me.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: But for those of you who are just tuning in now,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I am Eves.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: I am a writer and a podcaster and if you
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: have listened to Sminty before, then you've probably hurt me
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: on the Female First episodes, where I talk about different
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: women in history who have their own respective firsts of
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: their accomplishments and how they contributed to their specific lineages
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: and industries and fields.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: And I am.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Co host so one half of the podcast on Theme,
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: which is a podcast about black storytelling. I have known
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Katie for a very long time, but since a lot
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: of your audience may not know Katie, I'll let Katie
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: talk about who she is and whatever.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: However you want to introduce yourself.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: Thank you. I am Katie Mitchell.
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: I am also the co host of On Theme, and
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: I am a bookstore owner. I'm a book writer, amongst
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: other things. And I've known Eve since I was ten
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: years old and we used to work on school projects
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: together and this is our first adult project together.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: So that's exciting.
• 2:09
  Speaker 6: Ya Oh, I love everything about that.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: I was thinking, we've known each other for twenty years now,
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm really getting old because in
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: my head it's always fifteen. Like for some reason, I
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: got stuck at fifteen. Yeah, you know, I like to
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: pretend I'm five years younger. I guess in the rich
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: history of Black women, actually I'm staying at one age
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: for a long time.
• 2:34
  Speaker 6: I appreciate that. I want to, like richt tell myself
• 2:37
  Speaker 6: to that. I want to stop.
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just pick age and like I like it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 7: I'm gonna stay there. Oh wow, twenty years though, so
• 2:47
  Speaker 7: it's ten years old. That's a good friendship. Not many
• 2:50
  Speaker 7: last that long. And I love that you like each
• 2:52
  Speaker 7: other enough that you're gonna warn together as adults.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah that's real.
• 2:57
  Speaker 6: That's real.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: And we're committed to continue to like each other.
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. I was like, if we stop liking the podcast,
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: we have to keep liking each other exactly.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: It's a good role. That's a good role to have.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I'm interested in your your book writing bookstore side, Katie.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Can you explain more about that.
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, So I have a bookstore called Good Books,
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: and during the pandemic is when, like you know, everyone
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: was like supporting black businesses, especially black bookstores, so it
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: really took off and I was approached by an agent
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: was like, oh, have you ever thought about writing a book?
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: And I feel like a lot of people just have
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: like two three books in them, like ready to go.
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: And I was like, yes, I do. So I pitched
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: a book about black bookstores in the United States, and
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: so that's what I'm working on now. So it's called
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: Pros to the People. It's going to be a coffee
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: table type book and lots of picture there's lots of documents, like.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: All that good stuff. I'm really excited about it.
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: I went around the country this summer talking to different
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: black owned bookstores and just getting their stories down in
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: one volume, because currently the stories are all over the place,
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: and I just want to have like that history and
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: like those stories that you know didn't make it into
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: the newspaper or onto the list of calls, like somewhere
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: that we can all really enjoy it and experience it together.
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: That's amazing. I think we wouldn't need to put that
• 4:28
  Speaker 6: on our book club list.
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: Oh I love that.
• 4:33
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah that's coming.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, you should come back and talk about it when
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: it comes out. We would love that.
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: I am available to talk to anyone and everyone that
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: come out awesome.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: How has the podcasting world been for you?
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: Well, like, for the the book stuff is very slow,
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: and I came from the tech space before the book world,
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: and I'm used to super fast, fast, like why haven't
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: you done this yet? And so I was bringing that
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: energy to the book the publishing world.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: They're like, girl, calm down, like who are you?
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: But then with the podcasting stuff, when it's like you know,
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: you have to put out something every week for our show,
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: it's like okay, It's like this is more of the
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: pace that I'm used to So it's kind of like
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: that whiplash, like, Okay, am I supposed to be going
• 5:24
  Speaker 5: fast and like doing stuff? Or am I supposed to
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: like say that I'm going to have something by the
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: end of the month and really mean like two months
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: from now. So it's definitely a balance working on two
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: things at the same time with such different different paces.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes it is.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then podcasting being like between those two things
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: where it's like you maybe it's not like it's news
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: turnarounds per se, where it's like we're still working on
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: stories for an extended period of time, but you have
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: to also maintain those quick publishing deadlines. And then there's me,
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: the person who's like trying to be very intentional about
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: the way that I show up in terms of like
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: how I value and view how productivity can look and
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: should look for myself, and trying to make sure that
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I managed that well. It's like I also feel like
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: very hard to do.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, I am right there with you on that one.
• 6:21
  Speaker 7: I think we're filling both of those sentiments like between Katie,
• 6:25
  Speaker 7: which you're a whole different level. We just finished the
• 6:28
  Speaker 7: book writing process and we're like, what the hell is
• 6:30
  Speaker 7: this and being very different from podcasting as well as
• 6:34
  Speaker 7: trying to be intentional. And I think we forget to
• 6:38
  Speaker 7: mention that, Evesy, you used to be our executive producer
• 6:40
  Speaker 7: slash my personal mentor, because you were my beginning really
• 6:44
  Speaker 7: of trying to figure out the podcasting world.
• 6:46
  Speaker 6: It's true, like I was thinking about that.
• 6:47
  Speaker 7: Yeah, because it was Christopher who was there for a minute,
• 6:50
  Speaker 7: but he was very hands off because he's like, I'm
• 6:52
  Speaker 7: a white man, I'm not gonna tell you nothing.
• 6:53
  Speaker 6: Like very smart decision on his part. And then you
• 6:57
  Speaker 6: came in.
• 6:57
  Speaker 7: I was like, all right, I've got ten thousand questions
• 6:59
  Speaker 7: and you would actually sit with me to have this process.
• 7:02
  Speaker 7: So I don't think we give you enough credibly, Like, nah,
• 7:04
  Speaker 7: she was a huge part of Smitha. Yeah, she did
• 7:06
  Speaker 7: the extra work, but you really helped us put our
• 7:09
  Speaker 7: show together as to what it is today. So I know,
• 7:13
  Speaker 7: like you being this pro and you and Katie doing
• 7:15
  Speaker 7: this new work together. What does it look like going
• 7:18
  Speaker 7: away from big media to being your own personal this
• 7:23
  Speaker 7: is what I want and being able to dictate what
• 7:25
  Speaker 7: a podcast, what your podcast should look like.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: I definitely feel lots of freedom in it, And I
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: will say that I think it's just like a beautiful
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: thing that Katie and I do get to work together.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Like I know that we talked about that a little
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: bit earlier, but I think like our share love for
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: something and Katie and I being able to talk about
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: it in an intellectual but also a personally like edifying
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: way where it's like we're talking to each other, we're
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: learning things about each other in the way that we
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: think generally through the conversations that we're having on the podcast,
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: and it's just per chance that we are privileged enough
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: to be able to share with people and also be
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: paid for it.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Is a thing that's very lovely.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: So it's like our yes, it's labor, yes, And like
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: I get to have like share great moments and create
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: great memories with Katie in the process of it. So
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: I think that's really nice and to be able to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: do it on our own terms in so many ways
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: because there's not like there's not like really in reality
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: like limitations to that as well, but it's still very rewarding.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: And we're also talking about things that are just really
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: fun on the podcast, Like we're talking about haters and
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: like when do we get to do that in a
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: way that is.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Like structured and it's written and there's narrative around it,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: but like it's about haters.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it's been nice moving from that side of
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: it to like this side of it and doing it
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: in this specific way.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: I'm proud of you.
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: You all are doing such good things.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: Thank you well.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: So when we were talking about we were very excited
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: to have you both on and we were talking about
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: what this episode could be. The pitch that you sent
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: along is these the three reasons we need black stories
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: and why a show like on Theme is so important?
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: So can you break that down for us?
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: So today we're talking about three reasons why we need
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: black stories. Obviously that is relevant to our podcast on Theme.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: It is all about black storytelling in all its forms.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: And there are probably infinite reasons why we need black stories,
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: and that is very evident in the way that black
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: stories have persistent over time and how integral they are
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: in our literal, day to day lives. But we broke
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: it down to three reasons that are top of mind
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: for us, and then I think everybody would be able
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: to relate to. And the first one of those reasons
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: is about self definition. So Katie and I have talked
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: about self definition before. I know it's something that's important
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: to Katie, and we also briefly talked about self definition
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: in one of our recent episodes of the podcast, A
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: love Letter to Black Stories. But I know Katie has
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: some thoughts on self definition. So Katie, if you want
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: to tell me a little bit about what self definition
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: means to you and why it's such an important part
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: of Black storytelling.
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: Definitely with self definition. I think it's especially important with
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: black stories because Black people have been the subject of
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: stories for a very long time. We still are the
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: subject of stories, but it was at a certain point
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: in history and we're seeing that a little bit now where.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: It was not allowed for black.
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: People to tell their own stories, or we had to
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: tell our own stories secretly, right like they couldn't be
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: written down.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: They can only be passed orally.
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: And that does something to a people When you're not
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: allowed to talk about yourself, you're only the subject of
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: the story written by people who frankly do not like you,
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: or frankly have like an agenda or want to, you know,
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: perpetuate a certain message and have this propaganda so that
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: the rest of the world feels this way about you.
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: So with black storytelling and we're focusing on stories are
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: you know, like written by black people aim towards black people.
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: It's like we just get to say who we are,
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: and who we are is you know, different, who we are.
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: We might not agree with some of the things some
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: people do, and I think that's really important too, because
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: you know, telling telling who you are whether people like
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: it or not, whether people agree or not, And that
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: also changes too. I think one of the things that
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: I found in doing this podcast is who you are
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: isn't stagnant, and that's okay. And we see that with
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: a lot of the stories that we are examining, where
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: people have a long career of telling stories and telling
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: stories about themselves or telling stories about the black diaspora,
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: it changes because like our viewpoints change, how we think
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: about things changed, until that piece of self definition is
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: like always evolving, which I think is really cool.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that it's just really important to
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: be able to do that in a way that is
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: like it's important from a personal standpoint. So it's like
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: when we write and we share things with others, we're
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: getting things out on the page that we're able to
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: express in so many different ways, So it can be
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: cathartic in so many ways, and there is a lot
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: of discovery that can happen within that process of writing
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: itself and creating, but also in the editing process.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: So it's like also an exercise.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: Of that change over time that Katie was talking about,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: because it can happen in those very small moments of writing,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: and that can even change when we publish things and
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: put them out to other people. So yeah, it's very
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: impactful to be able to use our storytelling in those ways.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: And also in Black feminist thought. Patricia Hill Collins in
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: that book she talks about the power of self definition
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: and how important it is and how it is such
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: a pen and the idea of black feminist thought, the
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: idea of self definition and of finding a voice to
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: be able to express this collective idea of what self
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: definition means for Black women.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: Speaking of feminism, it reminds me of that Audi Lord quote,
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: you know, the one talk about it. Oh, Okay, if
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive. So
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: it's like you have to get out in front of
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: it and like, this is who I am, and whatever
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: from the out outside that you're projecting onto me, that's
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: your issue. Like you got to deal with that, because
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: like I already know who I am, and when you're
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: able to stand in that, that's power, right, And so
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: I feel like with storytelling, that's one way that we're
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: able to stand in who we are by just putting
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: it out there, telling our own stories and not letting
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: the stories and fantasies and fictions of other people and
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: other groups dictate how we are.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: And the other thing that Patricia Hill Collins talks about
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: is like the idea of it, literally, survival is at stake.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: So like when we're talking about self definition, it is
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: an exercise of survival as well. And it is that
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: way and so much in the way that we talk
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: about black storytelling on our podcast, Katie, like we're talking
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: about our persistence. We're talking about our existence in general
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: and how we continue to survive and thrive across generations.
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, not just personal survival, survival of traditions, survival of recipes,
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: survival of healing techniques. Let's all pass down through stories
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: and it's the reason why we're still here.
• 15:21
  Speaker 7: Eves, you said a term collective self discipline, and I
• 15:25
  Speaker 7: find that just a fascinating trim in itself because it
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: has that broader picture. But when you say collective self discipline,
• 15:33
  Speaker 7: how would you define that for me? Like just that
• 15:36
  Speaker 7: term in its self, So it's such a broad term,
• 15:38
  Speaker 7: but almost like an opposite.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Okay, So I guess this does kind of lead into
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: another one of our points. So I think maybe we
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: can move on to the second point in this one,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: because I don't want to step on our own toes,
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: because I think that question that you have, Samantha is
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: related to it.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And that's another one of our points.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: That our stories are that evidence, are evidence that black
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: folks are like not a monolis. They are documentation of that,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: and so there is self definition. But of course, when
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: we talk about black storytelling like that means so many
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: different things, because the idea of blackness is that and
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: a black diaspora is an idea of a collective in general.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: So while we have our own individual selves, in our
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: own individual perspectives and experiences that we move through this
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: world within, we are also identifying with our blackness at
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: the same time, which is in itself a collective. So
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: those two things are a both and like they both
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: exist at the same time. But within that realm and
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: all of the storytelling that we do, we're able to
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: see so many different all of the different sides of
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: all of the different things, and all of the stories
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: that we tell in all of these different ways show
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: that there is no one specific consciousness that encompasses all
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: black people. There are different ways that people think we
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: live in different times. We're colored by the different times
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: that we live in. We are colored by the way
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: that our parents raise us and any other people who
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: are in our kinship circles have raised us and taught
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: us things. We're colored by the way that things are
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: passed down over generations, through lineages, through our blood.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: We're colored by how.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: We choose to act in the world, how we're conditioned,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: and how we choose to show up in the world
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: every day. Our religions, our spiritualities, and so all of
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: that shows up in the work that we are doing
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: and by their forth like being a black person who
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: is creating a work and sharing it with the world.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: We are within that entire realm, like defining for ourselves
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: who we are are and how we want to share
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: that with the world perfectly explained.
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: Thank you, okay, and thank you for being able to
• 18:07
  Speaker 6: read my mind.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I understood what you were saying.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: I think another thing with black stories, showing that black
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: people aren't a monolith, goes to our really current times
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: of like book banning. And I think one of the
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: things around book banning is like the politics of respectability, like, oh,
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: you're painting this group in a bad light. Like there's
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: a lot of bands around queer people. It's like, oh,
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: you're talking about that gay stuff too much, and oh
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: you're talking about racism and like all these horrible acts
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: of violence too much. And that's going to make someone
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: feel bad. But it is a part of just like
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: the collective story. And so instead of saying we need
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: less of these stories, just we need more of every story.
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: And I think that's what on theme is really getting at,
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: because you know, we're going to be talking about queer people,
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: We're going to be talking about acts of violence, We're
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: going to be talking about haters and obituaries and advice columns.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: Like it's all a story and it has all these
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: different perspectives and they're going to be all black, but
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: they're very diverse to in how they're approaching things. And
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: some people are going to be real liberal, some people
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: are going to be real conservative, some people gonna be progressive.
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: I don't know if we're gonna get into the Libertarians
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: and all that good stuff, but like not exctually from
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: different different vantage points, and we're going to be looking
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: at all of that. Eves and I come from different
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: vantage points on a lot of things, and you know,
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: we get to have those conversations and at the at
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: the end of the day, like, you know, we're still black,
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: we're still telling stories, but you know, we have different opinions,
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: and that's that's what makes this a good conversation and
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: a conversation worth having.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's a good point to lead
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: into our next reason why we need a black story
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: is connecting with people and ideas across time and space.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: So in that regard, Katie, thinking about how when we
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: interact with all of the media that we're talking about,
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: it's not always from this current era. It's not always
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: contemporary work. A lot of the times we're reading things
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: that are from historical sources, and we will read things
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: and I think a lot of y'all listeners know if
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: they listen to the other female first episode, and like
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: we just talked about if y'all have listened to the
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: episode about Susie King Taylor. She was involved in the
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Civil War, she was a nurse, and she did domestic
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: work and so many other things. But she had a
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: lot of firsts, and she wrote a memoir about her
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: experiences as an enslaved person and then after emancipation in
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: the postwar years and going into the early nineteen hundreds,
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: and how so many of the things that people like
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: her and so many other people that we read about
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: or learn about in other different forms of media say
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: things and we're like, wait a second, that was that
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: was the early eighteen hundreds, or that was the early
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: nineteen hundreds, And I still I understand what you're saying.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: I'm coming from the same perspective, And like Susie King Taylor,
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: calling back to her again, she was like, I see
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: that there is some progress that has been made since
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: emancipation happened, and now I'm living in the nineteen hundreds,
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: but I'm like questioning whether or not all of the
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: work that I did and contributed to this Civil War
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: effort was even worth it?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: What did it really mean for the Union forces to win?
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: And what did it really mean that I was involved
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: in it even though you know, there's still segregation and
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: racism and lynching is happening.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: What do our efforts really mean?
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Questioning things like that that you'll go back and sources
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: and on so many other topics, Like it doesn't even
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: have to be about racism per se, or the effects
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: of white supremacy or anything like that. It can be
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: things that are about joy, Like, it doesn't have to
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: be things that are just really devastating. It's like, Oh,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: I saw that they experienced black joy in the same
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: way that I experience black joy today. And it's really
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: affirming and also enlightening at the same time to see
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: that people in these works that we are reading today
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: experienced things in similar ways to the way we experience
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: them today.
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's that connection, right, Like you sometimes we can
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: feel like very alone. I feel like this a lot,
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: like during these unprecedented times of like oh no, the world,
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: why must I have been born in this time? Why
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: am I on this timeline? But then you're like, wait,
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: everyone Loki feels that way because there's always something.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: There's always something.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: And I love the James Ballin quote where he's like,
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: you think your pain and your heartbreak are un presidented
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: in the history of the world, but then you read
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: but that goes the same, like you were saying, he's
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: for joy. I was reading the Autobiography of an Ex
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: Colored Man last night and he was in Atlanta talking
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: about how when you're on the street and black people
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: just be laughing and loud and running around laughing. I'm like, no,
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: that's so Atlanta, Like that's so twenty twenty three Atlanta,
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: you know, and you know that book's written like one
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: hundred years ago, but like some things are just what
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: it is. And I think that's very comforting. And it
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: also reminds me as someone who is putting out work myself,
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: that I will not know the impact of it all,
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: like I'll be gone and my words, whether they're written
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: or you know, on an audio platform like there, they'll
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: still be reaching people into the future. And it's really
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: beautiful to have that conversation across time and across space
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: that you might not truly be privy, but you're definitely
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: in that conversation, like I'm in conversation with authors from
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: the early nineteen hundreds, from the eighteen hundreds. They don't
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: know me, I don't know them beyond their work, but
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: it's still influencing me.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: I love that. That's so true. You never know, like
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: someday in the future somebody listening to this who really
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: needed to hear it. Like that's so powerful and the
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: power of storytelling.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I really like that.
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it exists far beyond what we're able to know,
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: which I think is like the magic in it.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: I was just tidy.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: I was just going to use the word magic because
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: I was like, because that's it is what it is,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: because you know you're able to reach across time in
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: those different ways. You essentially become a time traveler when
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: you're reading works from the past, but also knowing that
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: you are a part of what people will be enjoying.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: So it's like you're merging different timelines into one. And
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: it is really cool how that can become like a
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: source of current inspiration for us, Like it's the thing
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: that is pushing us forward in this current time to
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: continue making work. Because I think that's the other thing
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: about being a storyteller, and like talking about storytelling and
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: being able to reach back into other people's stories. Is that,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: like I remember why I'm doing what I'm doing, So
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: it's becomes a great source of encouragement for me and
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: also helps me realize that the work I'm doing is
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: purposeful and it does have a specific place within a
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: broader realm of all of the work and all of
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: the things.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: That we do here on earth.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it is the power of stories and sharing
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: those and then like you said to how those like
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: your own interpretation of that can change over time and
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: based on what the person meant when they wrote it. Like,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it's just really fascinating to think about how that evolves
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: and changes and still causes conversation and we can still
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: relate to it even if it's been one hundred years
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: or if it will be one hundred years from now.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: That's just how powerful storytelling is.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, and something that I'm really happy we can
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: offer to people on theme in ways that I hope
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: that they connect to really well and are able to
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: continue that conversation because it is like storytelling is a
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: collaborative effort. I mean, if we think about all of
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: the practical ways in which is a collaborative effort and
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: so much of Black storytelling like call and response, or
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: we're talking about oral storytelling and we're thinking about all
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: of the ways at family gatherings per se and which
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: story is morph over time, and we're playing these games
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: of telephone and things that happened and actually didn't actually
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: happen in the more casual and conversational storytelling that happens
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: in black spaces, that it is collaborative. And I hope
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: that people find this current instance of Black storytelling that
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Onzine is to be that kind of collaborative effort in
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: the same way that so many other Black stories are,
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: and that they feel empowered and excited to participate and
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: know that they're part in the storytelling as storytellers themselves,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: because they too have their own stories to tell and
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: own insights to share with people who will continue to
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: find use in them in this moment and like beyond.
• 27:27
  Speaker 8: Yes, and I really really love that you're looking at
• 27:42
  Speaker 8: things that I think maybe a lot of us wouldn't
• 27:45
  Speaker 8: think of when we first think of stories, like obituaries
• 27:47
  Speaker 8: or haters.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Like I like thinking about that too. When you go
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: to someone's apartment, you're like, oh, I can tell like
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: kind of the story of your life just based on
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: what you have. Like, there's so many ways to tell stories.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to look
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: one way. So I love that you are exploring all
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: of those avenues because I think that's really important.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, stories are everywhere, and we're trying to we're trying
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: to go everywhere with this show.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, can you give us a preview, like, what
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: are some topics you have out, what are some you're
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: looking forward to.
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So we've talked to Donovan x Ramsey about the
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: Crack era. He has a book out called When Crack
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: Was King, and so we talk about the storytelling that
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: was going on during the Crack era and how that
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: exacerbated it, what happened, how the story telling changed when
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: the people who were using crack change. So that was
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: a really fun conversation to have with him so knowledgeable
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: been writing.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: The book for years.
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: I think it's really nice to talk to authors who've
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: been writing and like this has been their life and
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: I just get to like soak up all their knowledge
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: with like half the work or not even half the work,
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: like a fraction of the work they've Like, I just
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: get to read your book that you work so hard
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: on and now I know what you know. I'm looking
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: forward to talking about passing racial passing in the black community.
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: We said Obituaries, Haters, the Advice Column episode. What I'm
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: really looking forward to with this show is like looking
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: at stories that we think we kind of know what
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: was going on and just like turning it a couple
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: of degrees and looking at it a different way and like, well,
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: did you think about it like this? So that's what
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: I have been finding like really fun in the research
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: I've been doing, is just looking at things just a
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: slightly different way and getting like a whole new like
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: vibe on it.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Katie puts that really well. I'm excited
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: about all those topics too. Y'all know we're in the
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: midst of spooky season, and y'all know we've had conversations
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: before on this show about how much I love all
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: of the spooky things. So I'm looking forward to some
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: episodes we're having on on theme about magic and about horror,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: which is seasonally relevant and something that I get excited
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: for every year, So I'm looking forward to that too,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: and all of the ones that Katie mentioned, And yeah,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: black storytelling is infinite, like it can. We can have
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: topics until the end of days. And I'm just looking
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: forward to, like the very small sliver of that deep,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: deep well we'll be able to touch in this show.
• 30:31
  Speaker 6: I'm excited. I'm excited.
• 30:33
  Speaker 7: I do have one question, though, from what you've researched
• 30:36
  Speaker 7: so far, what is something one just one thing that
• 30:39
  Speaker 7: you're like, oh my god, what I didn't know this
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: or this changed my perspective.
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: I feel like I have an answer for you, Okay,
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: the answer for me then. So I think one thing
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: that EA's perspective changed on was a very popular trope
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: in Black Horror, and she was like ten hoes down
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: on her opinion at the beginning of the episode, and
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: then by the end of the episode she was like,
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: actually changed my mind. Oh a little teaser, Oh yeah.
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: I didn't know.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was very hard, like I have a whole
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: theory about why I don't like this thing, and then
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: that got turned around by the end of the episode,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: and I feel differently about it now, and I'm sure
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: that I'll keep happening into the future. Like I do
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: know that Katie and I have a lot of things
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: that we want to talk about that are kind of
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: antithetical to what we would typically think and maybe broad
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: opinions that have been formed about certain topics that we
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: like to like look into other sides of.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: So that's definitely something we want to do with the show.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: That's exciting. That's exciting. Well, thank you both so much
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: for coming on anytime. You're welcome. Katie, definitely come back
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: when your book is out and we could talk about it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Yes, y'all are first on my stop.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't have to be first, but anytime you
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: have time.
• 32:14
  Speaker 7: I've claimed it now, I heard it, I wrote it down.
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: But you know, I think before.
• 32:21
  Speaker 7: Also before we move on, because both of you are
• 32:24
  Speaker 7: avid readers, writers, all the things, way more than I
• 32:27
  Speaker 7: could ever be. But what is one book that you
• 32:31
  Speaker 7: would recommend that we all should be reading at this point?
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: At this point, and then we'll go into what is
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: one movie? I want to about?
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Both of those?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Oh get me stresses me out. Oh no, I thought
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: this really stresses me out. So I feel like I
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: want Katie today just answer both of these questions.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: Okay, one book that I think everyone should be reading.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: I'm very partial to zz packers drinking coffee elsewhere it's
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: a collection of short stories that I I just.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: Find very hilarious.
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: And when I first encountered it, I was in this
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: space where I could not read a full length novel
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: to save my life. It was like everything was going
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: on in the world and I just like could not focus,
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: and I was like, what can I do? So it
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: was like short stories, and I hadn't really been into
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: short stories before, so I feel like I just lucked
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: up and reading hers first, because then I was like, Okay,
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: I really like these short stories. So that's one book
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: I would recommend, and then one movie. It really has
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: nothing to do with like the Times Now, but I
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: just think it's hilarious. And I would also like to
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: do an episode.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: On this movie.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm ready to hear it too, because I don't
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: know what it's going to be.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: Are you familiar with Poodie Tang? I love that movie.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: Have you seen it?
• 33:49
  Speaker 7: It's been a very long time. I feel like I
• 33:50
  Speaker 7: watched the edited version as well. You know how it
• 33:53
  Speaker 7: kind of pops up every now and again.
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, like on TV.
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I know, I've never forgotten the well understanding.
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: I first watched this movie when I was a child,
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: like had no business watching this movie. But like, one
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: of the big things in the movie is that the
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: main character, Pooty Tang like never says any actual words.
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: He says like just like nonsensical phrases like tippy te
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: sign no pity on a running kin. So but when
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: I was a child, like, I understood what he was saying.
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: So then when I watched it again as an adult,
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: I was looking at it like, did they change the
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: words to this, Like what's going on? Like he used
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: to I used to know what he was saying and
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: now I don't. So that was always funny to me.
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: I was like, not me speaking Pooty Tang back in
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: the day and not realizing interesting.
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: But yeah, a very fun movie.
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: It's like a movie that it's like supposed to be
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: like a joke, but it's really deep when you think
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: about it.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: And that's how I'm gonna say, Okay, yes, wait for
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: this episode.
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: All these teasers happening here.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I know, oh man, Okay, well, Eves, do you want
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to escape the question or have answer?
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I'm escaping the question. I'm gonna let that. I'm gonna
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: let that resonate that Pooty Tang just I'm gonna let
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: that that.
• 35:16
  Speaker 6: Was a high note.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, keep that on.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was definitely yeah. All right, cool, Well, thank
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: you both so much for coming on. Can you tell
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the good listeners where they can find you, where they
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: can get your podcast, subscribe all that stuff.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Yep, So you can find me and Katie at One
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Theme Show. If you're on Instagram, that's where you can
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: follow us and keep up with everything that we're doing
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: and know when new episodes are launching. Episodes of On
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Theme come out every single Thursday. You can already listen
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: to a bunch of them, and I think that's it.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: You can find me personally Eves at Not Apologizing. You
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: can also go to my website at Eves Jeffcoat dot com.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: That's spelled y v E S j E F F
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: C O A T dot com. If you want to
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: keep up with me and Katie. Do you have any
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: other shout outs you would like to.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Get my books?
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: That it is called good Books and it's at good
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: Books at O on Instagram and good Books at O
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: dot com.
• 36:20
  Speaker 7: Yes, when do we need to start looking for your book?
• 36:22
  Speaker 7: By the way, Katie, okay, okay, so.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: The exhaustion in your voice I understand level.
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah, real real.
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: That when y'all writing a podcast, book or what type
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: of book were y'all writing.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: It was it was part of like a package deal
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: for this so it was about this show kind of.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: But it was exhausting and stress, that's what else.
• 36:50
  Speaker 6: And it's just fallen to the wayside.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Well, you can emails It's stuff the mom stuff at
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Momstup podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok. Stephfone never told You.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: We have a tea public store and we do have
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: a book. You can get it at steffie should rereadbooks
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: dot com or wherever you get your books. Thanks as
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: for listening. Steffan Never Told You is production iHeartRadio. For
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: more podcasts on my heart Radio, you can check out
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: the heart Radio app, Apple podcast wherever you listen to
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: your favorite shows.