Latest / APD Pod Squad / Episode 2; SPO Isaiah Senyak, Chief Mike Lamb, Deputy Chiefs Jackie Stepp and Sean Aardema, and Det. Sam DeGrave

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Episode 2; SPO Isaiah Senyak, Chief Mike Lamb, Deputy Chiefs Jackie Stepp and Sean Aardema, and Det. Sam DeGrave · APD Pod Squad

0:00
SPEAKER_06: This is the APD Pod Squad.
0:04
SPEAKER_06: Coming up on this episode, getting to know Senior Police Officer Isaac Seniak will learn all about the RTI C from Deputy Chief Jackie Steph and Deputy Chief Sean Artemis.
0:16
SPEAKER_06: Chief Mike Lamb answers your questions in our Ask the Chief segment, and Detective Sam DeGrave talks about the hunt for Michael John Shornock.
0:25
SPEAKER_06: All on this episode of the APD Pod Squad.
0:30
SPEAKER_06: This segment is called Getting to Know, as you, as I, as we get to know the officers of the Asheville Police Department through questions, answers, candid conversations.
0:40
SPEAKER_06: Joining me now, Senior Police Officer Isaiah Seniak.
0:43
SPEAKER_06: Welcome.
0:44
SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
0:44
SPEAKER_06: So here's how the rules work, right?
0:47
SPEAKER_06: You're familiar with the term uh name rank serial number, right?
0:50
SPEAKER_06: They always tell you that you get captured in war.
0:52
SPEAKER_06: That's what you give them as name rank.
0:54
SPEAKER_06: So this is gonna be kind of similar in a way.
0:57
SPEAKER_06: We're gonna get your name rank hometown, and then something most people don't know about you, and then just see where it goes from there.
1:05
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: We already said your name, but go ahead.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Senior police officer Isaiah Senaak, and I work with the community engagement division, personnel number 2674.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Since you asked for a cereal, throw that throw that in there or get it in there.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'm originally from Northern California.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: I was born in Berkeley, California.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then we moved up to Sonoma County, Santa Rosa, Petaluma, that area.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: And something that most people don't know about me is that I dropped out of high school.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: So how did that happen?
1:31
SPEAKER_01: At 12, roughly, uh as my mom passed away.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: And so uh my dad kind of handled it the way he did and was like, we're going on the road.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: So we took uh a van, a trailer, two dogs, a parrot, and just kind of bummed around national parks for a while.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh he was, you know, sort of a hippie.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: So his thought was like, as long as you're reading, uh, you're getting all the education you need plus the world experience.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Suffice to say, I uh was lacking in some areas of you know that like a academic rigidity could allow.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: So I had to do some catching up, but I I ended up um leaving high school when I was 17.
2:11
SPEAKER_06: That's a very Berkeley story, though, if you think about it.
2:13
SPEAKER_06: Because you know, if if there was like a liberal capital of the liberal universe, it would be Berkeley.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:19
SPEAKER_06: It was uh it was the height of that whole hippie lefty movement way back in the 60s and even into the 70s, and even today, quite frankly, it still is the enclave of liberalness.
2:30
SPEAKER_06: It's so far left, it's practically back to the right.
2:33
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so I for you to do that and go on that adventure at that young age, it almost seems appropriate.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: It seems like part of like the the cultural zeitgeist of the time, right?
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Like it was just kind of folded right into it.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: I didn't feel unnatural or anything like that.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: At some point, however, after I I met my wife, so I was like 20 years old at this point, I decided I needed to get back into school.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to like, you know, check off some things, and uh so I ended up you know getting my GD and then going back to college, which was quite a journey because I had a lot of a lot of stuff to relearn.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh I got my associates from Broward College and then I went to Florida Atlantic University.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: All right.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh in Boca in Florida, and uh got my bachelor's there.
3:17
SPEAKER_06: So some kids were playing little league baseball and you were like in the in the desert looking for lizards and stuff like that.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Is that how it's uh sort of actually it's not not too far off, you know.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: We're bumming around a lot, especially like northern Idaho, uh like you know, Sawtooth Mountain area, you know, Wyoming, Yellowstone, all I mean, it was really beautiful.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: And I and I and I think that there is something to be said for the level of education that you receive uh experientially, you know, um that it's not simply relegated to the like the textbook learning that you would receive in a conventional educational setting.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So I I found it beneficial and I you know I can apply that to my life currently.
3:54
SPEAKER_06: Senior police officer Isaiah Seniak is with me.
3:57
SPEAKER_06: We're talking about his uh interesting upbringing and uh you know you're a bit of a renaissance man.
4:03
SPEAKER_06: You you kind of you you think of it that way, and you were ahead of your time because uh right now a lot of people are getting homeschooled, right?
4:10
SPEAKER_06: So you kind of got homeschooled before homeschooling was cool.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:13
SPEAKER_06: I mean, in a way, right?
4:14
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: I um I have five children.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Um the everyone has had the traditional education thing.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh except for my youngest.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: So for him, we are trying to do some homeschooling.
4:25
SPEAKER_06: Aaron Powell That's an area of the country that I think at some point I'll visit.
4:29
SPEAKER_06: And I'll do it in a similar way to you, although I'll be probably a little bit older and I'll be in a nice RV.
4:33
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
4:34
SPEAKER_06: But uh that's kind of how I envision at least part of my future retirement at some point is visiting those places out there because uh where I grew up, uh Buffalo, you know, just outside of Buffalo, New York, looks way different than you know, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, all those areas out there, Arizona, the desert, and whatnot.
4:51
SPEAKER_06: The just look at what you're looking at.
4:53
SPEAKER_06: Very green, like around here.
4:55
SPEAKER_06: You know, here the mountains are different.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
4:57
SPEAKER_06: Out there, very rocky.
4:58
SPEAKER_06: I mean, well, they're the rocky mountains, right?
5:00
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, they're these mountains are uh are older.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: So they've been weathered a little more, they're you know, they're rounded.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and you're right.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: You go the further west you go, sometimes if you're especially if you're not used to it, the like how vast the sky is and how rugged and almost Martian some of the landscapes appear.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
5:17
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, very much so.
5:18
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, some people would say this is you know the back out there, like in the desert southwest, is where they faked the moon landing because it kind of looks like that.
5:25
SPEAKER_06: That's uh I could see that.
5:26
SPEAKER_06: I could see that all that stuff.
5:28
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
5:29
SPEAKER_06: So policing, how did that happen?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: So uh before policing, I was uh teacher, ironically, uh uh at a middle school in South Florida.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: And when I moved up to Asheville to help take care of my dad, um I had some issues with licensure, and I was kind of always interested in law enforcement.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, however, uh I was arrested when I was 18.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I always thought that that was a door that was shut.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, I never sort of lost interest in that because I think a lot of people uh sort of are very keen on armchair philosophizing, but when it comes to the you know ethical immediacy that police affords um and that policing affords, it's a unique experience.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: I really wanted to be folded into that.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: So in conjunction with applying everywhere I possibly could, one of the I was like, yeah, let's just see what happens.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: I applied for an APD and they called back.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: And I'm very thankful that they did.
6:21
SPEAKER_06: So you know, we're looking for officers, right?
6:24
SPEAKER_06: We're down about 58, and we're gonna have a great class coming up here that's actually going right now and hoping to increase those ranks.
6:30
SPEAKER_06: But for people that are listening that thought maybe like you, it's like, you know, I had kind of a rocky childhood.
6:34
SPEAKER_06: I've got a little bit of stuff in my past.
6:37
SPEAKER_06: That doesn't immediately rule you out.
6:39
SPEAKER_06: I mean, you're a perfect example of that.
6:41
SPEAKER_06: And me to a lesser extent, I'm obviously not a sworn officer uh like you are, but I was a little nervous too because I had some issues in college.
6:49
SPEAKER_06: Uh, you know, looking back, it wasn't anything, you know, I didn't whack a guy or nothing like that.
6:54
SPEAKER_06: But, you know, I got arrested as well uh for something that it turns out was pretty minor.
7:00
SPEAKER_06: But as you know, we've got to undergo a lie detector test as part of the job.
7:05
SPEAKER_06: Even me.
7:05
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
7:06
SPEAKER_06: Uh yeah, I mean, they they put those electrodes on your butt, on your back.
7:10
SPEAKER_06: I mean, it really is, isn't it?
7:12
SPEAKER_06: Oh my God, I've got I've got these electrodes and these things on my butt.
7:16
SPEAKER_06: It's just like, what are they hoping to learn?
7:18
SPEAKER_06: And I'm like, geez, I I I had Kashi this morning for breakfast.
7:22
SPEAKER_06: Hopefully they don't, you know, a little bit of movement down there is nothing misinterpreted.
7:27
SPEAKER_06: We wouldn't want that.
7:28
SPEAKER_06: I gotta tell you, I I tell people about that the polygraph, because I don't know anyone that's taken it to this point in my life.
7:34
SPEAKER_06: I was the first one that I knew that had taken a polygraph and they're what was that like?
7:38
SPEAKER_06: And I'm like, stressful.
7:39
SPEAKER_06: Yes, very stressful because you don't know what they're gonna ask.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Also, there's a vulnerability that comes with that is, you know, if you um if you come and you're like, I'm gonna come from a place of honesty and I'm just gonna be transparent.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: We we always have like masks that we wear throughout the day through various encounters.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: And this time you got to take that mask off and be very transparent with another person who you just met.
8:02
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a vulnerability there that makes it, I think, psychologically difficult.
8:06
SPEAKER_06: And I think that's mostly what they're looking for, too.
8:08
SPEAKER_06: In addition to, you know, I buried a guy in my backyard.
8:11
SPEAKER_06: They're they're hoping not to discover that, of course.
8:13
SPEAKER_06: That would probably disqualify you from a job as a police officer.
8:15
SPEAKER_06: I think so.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: Probably for most professions.
8:16
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I would think so.
8:17
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
8:18
SPEAKER_06: You know, but you know, in my case, I'm thinking I haven't done anything really wrong.
8:22
SPEAKER_06: I think they're looking to see how honest I am.
8:24
SPEAKER_06: And in my position, of course, that's very important, as is yours.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:27
SPEAKER_06: No, absolutely.
8:28
SPEAKER_06: You know, make sure we're, you know, being upfront with not just the our supervisors and our co-workers, but also the public.
8:34
SPEAKER_07: Sure.
8:34
SPEAKER_06: With transparency.
8:35
SPEAKER_06: I mean, they need to trust that what we're saying is true and how we're going to treat them, of course, uh, you more than me so much, uh, is going to be with respect and honesty.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, to go back to what you were saying before about the the Rocky past, in some ways, I think that makes for a more holistically minded officer, period, because you are able to empathize with a wider variety and of various cross-sections of society.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Whereas somebody who maybe hasn't had as much experience in certain areas um might not be privy to that information.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: So I actually personally look at it as a strength that I'm able to relate to other individuals who I see in various societal elements, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_01: And I can I can relate, I can I can be very candid with these people and form genuine relationships and then hopefully change the trajectory of that interaction.
9:24
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely.
9:25
SPEAKER_06: Isaiah Seniak is with us and part of the community engagement division, a patrol officer.
9:30
SPEAKER_06: And we're gonna feature what's happening in your division every single episode, because you guys are doing a lot with the public, and as the name would imply, community engagement, engaging with the community.
9:40
SPEAKER_07: Sure.
9:40
SPEAKER_06: What is coming up here in the uh latter half of September where the public can engage with us and what's going on right now with you guys?
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna firstly just talk about chess briefly because I'm a chess fanatic.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: So every Wednesday from uh one to three, we meet at Pritchard Park and we play chess.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's a great opportunity uh to cast aside barriers that may be pre-existing.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we just meet in the context of 64 squares.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: And we we play a game that a lot of people know, and we interact with a wide variety of society, which is really, really cool.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's conversations that we have during the game or after the game that we wouldn't normally expect to have.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: So I want to throw that out there.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we just closed out our application process for the Citizens Police Academy.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Really excited, uh looking forward to that.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: That begins September 19th.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Um and it's just an opportunity to invite the public in to sort of see a behind the scenes view and look as far as what actually happens at the police department.
10:43
SPEAKER_06: So about chess with a cop, which you brought up like a first and foremost, yeah, as a chess fanatic in this day and age of devices, and everyone's just always looking down on their phones.
10:52
SPEAKER_06: Uh something like chess that just kind of engages you with somebody else and like your brain in a different way is I hope it doesn't go the way of the dinosaur.
11:01
SPEAKER_06: You know, I you get the opinion that some of these things, like chess and some of the old, you know, you see the guys playing dominoes, the old guys play dominoes, and just things where you're you're interacting with somebody else with all the devices away, and just a chance to really get to know somebody.
11:17
SPEAKER_06: If you don't know how to play chess, Isaiah will teach you.
11:20
SPEAKER_06: Yes, 100%.
11:21
SPEAKER_06: And you know what the weather at the end of September in the Asheville area, it doesn't get much better.
11:26
SPEAKER_06: Correct.
11:26
SPEAKER_06: I I mean it is just a great Yeah, I mean, it's not like July or August where it's a thousand degrees outside and you're downtown with no breeze.
11:33
SPEAKER_06: We're talking end of September.
11:34
SPEAKER_06: So we're gonna get gorgeous like days in the 70s and uh and be downtown.
11:38
SPEAKER_06: So it happens at Pritchard Park for people that are wondering.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, happens at Pritchard Park, and and you're absolutely right.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: It is like this organic thing, and I think that there's a yearning for people to uh really have legitimate human interactions um and and are looking for more meaning because so much of our lives are through a device or a screen and and we're lacking something there.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: And so this is an opportunity for two people to organically meet and engage, you know, in an ancient game, um, which ironically is based on competition, but it ends up breeding camaraderie.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: So uh it's sort of like this antithetical thing.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't expect it, uh, but it doesn't breed animosity all.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: And um, everyone comes together.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
12:19
SPEAKER_06: And it happened organically too.
12:20
SPEAKER_06: This wasn't something that was planned.
12:22
SPEAKER_06: Hey, let's go play chess with the citizenry.
12:24
SPEAKER_06: It didn't work out that way.
12:25
SPEAKER_06: It just it just started with playing chess one day, and next thing you know, you're playing chess with people, and then it became an established thing.
12:32
SPEAKER_06: I was down there uh a couple of weeks ago just to observe, just to watch.
12:36
SPEAKER_06: And uh I was fascinated by the true cross-section of the town that was there.
12:41
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, young, old, black, white, men, women.
12:44
SPEAKER_06: It was a little bit of everything.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: It's it's very it's there's something about it that's very pure, and the barriers and you know, um, those sort of facades that just are cast aside and are sloughed off.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: It's wonderful.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I've played with everyone from you know local business uh owners to attorneys to tourists to people who got out of prison and have really perfected their craft of chess in their uh lot of time on their hands.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes, but and they do they do great.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: And and and a lot of times I've had some of the best conversations are with those folks.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Because they're like, I would have never imagined that I'd be out here playing a game with you.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and it's it's rewarding.
13:24
SPEAKER_06: It's been fun getting to know senior police officer Isaiah Seniak.
13:27
SPEAKER_06: If you'd like to get to know him, you could go down to Pritchard Park on was it Wednesdays one to three?
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Wednesdays one to three.
13:33
SPEAKER_06: Wednesdays one to three and play chess with Isaiah.
13:35
SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: All right, unless it's unless it's snowing or raining and then we go to the library.
13:39
SPEAKER_06: Good call.
13:40
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
13:40
SPEAKER_06: Good call.
13:41
SPEAKER_06: All right.
13:41
SPEAKER_06: Hey, thanks for joining us today for this.
13:43
SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
13:45
SPEAKER_06: It's time for Ask the Chief, as Asheville Police Chief Mike Lamb joins us for this.
13:50
SPEAKER_06: Welcome back, Chief.
13:51
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, thank you, Rick.
13:52
SPEAKER_06: It's good to be back.
13:52
SPEAKER_06: Don't forget, if you've got a question for the chief, you can call and leave a voicemail at 250-8800 or email apdpodcastfeedback at ashevelnc.gov.
14:04
SPEAKER_06: We got one of each for this, so we've got two questions for you.
14:07
SPEAKER_06: We'll start with the voicemail from Joe.
14:09
SPEAKER_04: I was just calling to address the issue downtown and around the downtown area with people that seem to think it's a speedway and with the loudest vehicles I've ever heard on a raceway.
14:22
SPEAKER_04: They're backfiring, they're so loud they frighten people, children, dogs.
14:27
SPEAKER_04: My dog will uh pull me all the way home sometimes when they're backfiring.
14:32
SPEAKER_04: Nothing seems to be done about it, and the city doesn't seem to care about it.
14:36
SPEAKER_04: Besides that, the speeding is a constant throughout the day, also.
14:41
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, that's a few of the things I I wish you would address and do something about.
14:45
SPEAKER_06: Okay, first of all, Joe has never been to Bristol Motor Speedway because it is way louder than anything you will ever hear in downtown Asheville.
14:52
SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah, definitely.
14:53
SPEAKER_06: First and foremost.
14:53
SPEAKER_06: But I get where he's coming from, right?
14:55
SPEAKER_06: It's a it's a quality of life issue.
14:57
SPEAKER_06: And uh what do you have to say about his comments, his questions about the the cars backfiring, intentionally so?
15:03
SPEAKER_06: We all we've all heard that before.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, first off, I just Joe, I really appreciate you sending in the uh the the question, uh especially via voicemail.
15:13
SPEAKER_02: So we we appreciate the engagement.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, it's it's not only the the backfiring, but also the dangerous behavior that's and driving behavior that's concerning, the speeding, the breathless driving, because we've also heard complaints about that.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: And what we experienced, especially around COVID and the associated quarantines, was just an increase in dangerous driving behaviors, you know, 240, Interstate 40, Merriman, Biltmore Avenue, all of those were areas that were basically shut down and it was almost almost like Bristol.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: It was like a raceway.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: And um given given our our staffing challenges, especially when we started experiencing our mass resignations in 2020, 2021, 2022, um, th that was a lot less officers to do the traffic enforcement to enforce that dangerous driving behavior.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Um one of the the big units that we lost, which is the first one I want to bring back as we restaff, is our traffic safety unit.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: Prior to 2020, our traffic safety unit investigated all of our traffic fatalities.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: Last year was a record in traffic fatalities.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Rec record year with 19.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, we're on track to meet or probably to beat that record.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: And so um we we really need to bring that traffic safety unit back.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: They were tasked with not only investigating those fatalities, but also doing the bulk share of the traffic enforcement, you know, through citations, through running radar, through addressing reckless driving behavior.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: Um so my my hope is that we can bring them back soon and then they can be do targeted enforcement in uh certain areas like downtown.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: Because we, you know, we've heard again, not only about the backfire, but also be uh the drag racing that's on Patton Avenue coming from downtown heading heading towards West Asheville.
16:59
SPEAKER_06: And I know the idea of civilian investigators is being researched right now, which would also possibly free up some officers that aren't tied down with just mere property damage incidents.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, definitely.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: If officers aren't tied up with working minor property damage collision wrecks, that gives them more discretionary time to do traffic enforcement, to run radar and do those associated enforcement actions.
17:21
SPEAKER_06: Do you think it's uh some people that have a tendency to lead foot it a little bit are aware that they're not going to be monitored as much because of the staffing?
17:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I believe so.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think it's again, I think it we saw it gradually increase during the lockdowns and during COVID, and then that you know it just became a habit at at that point.
17:41
SPEAKER_06: Right.
17:42
SPEAKER_06: And so the dangerous driving comes from that.
17:44
SPEAKER_06: You know, driving faster and driving, blowing through stop signs and all of those things.
17:48
SPEAKER_06: So you would think by getting fully staffed, that would also bring down the vehicular homicides, the deaths that we're experiencing right now as well.
17:54
SPEAKER_06: So Exactly.
17:55
SPEAKER_06: Okay, so that dovetails nice into our uh question that we got via email.
18:00
SPEAKER_06: This is from Laura, uh, who lives in Oakley.
18:02
SPEAKER_06: She says, I see and hear a lot about the officer shortage, which looks like it began in the aftermath of the George Floyd protests.
18:09
SPEAKER_06: Was the Asheville police fully staffed at the time the departures happened?
18:14
SPEAKER_06: And how long before staffing is back to 100%?
18:17
SPEAKER_06: Thank you for all you do and stay safe.
18:19
SPEAKER_06: That's from Laura and Oakley.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: So great question, Laura.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: It's very, very relevant question.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, it it pertains to a lot of the things that we we took offline as far as staffing goes.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: A lot of our specialty units.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: So it's you know, it it's hopefully as we restaff, we'll be able to bring those units back.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: But back in 2020, in actually in June of 2020, we were fully staffed with a 10% overhire.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: So we um, you know, we were we were beyond fully staffed.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: But then because of a series of events, because of the uh defund movement, because the council budget vote vote was pushed back, because an officer was charged with assault, and just the general sentiment of um um against law enforcement at the time.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: We had uh a whole lot of people resign.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, in 2020 we lost 62 officers.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: 2021 we lost 40, and then in 2022 we lost twenty-six.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: And we we currently have sixty vacancies out of a total of two hundred and thirty-five officers.
19:18
SPEAKER_06: It's like 130 officers down in three years.
19:20
SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah.
19:21
SPEAKER_06: That's almost a 50 percent drop.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, and if you if you look at our staffing, I looked at the number of officers that we had, especially in 2022, and we had the same number of officers that we had when I was hired in 1998.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: And so we, you know, we have a population growth of 40,000 to where we're almost a hundred thousand now from that time.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: So the ratio is just way off.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, we had a very low ratio of officers to citizens in the city of Asheville.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: So the follow-up question was how soon before hopefully we can get back to closer to full staffing?
19:50
SPEAKER_02: There is hope on the horizon.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: So we're very thankful for that.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: It looks like we've got twenty-seven in the queue to be hired for the next academy class.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just so thankful for that because we for the last several academies, we've had only five officers in each of those academies.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: So we're, you know, we've we've not been able to make up ground.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: And if we're able to have an academy in the fall of 30, you know, anywhere 27 to 30, that would get us halfway there since we have 60 vacancies.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: I ask all of our listeners to please um, if you know anybody that you think would make a great Asheville police department officer that has that calling to be an officer, you know, please encourage them to put in.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's a great place to work, great family atmosphere.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: We have fun at work and we do a great job serving our community.
20:38
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you know, for the kids right now that are maybe uh seniors in high school or out of high school and wondering what to do, it's like, I don't want to take those college loans and be in debt forever.
20:46
SPEAKER_06: Uh and so working for any municipality has its benefits, of course, uh, with the retirement package and things of that nature.
20:53
SPEAKER_06: Just if you're the type of person, like you mentioned, that likes helping others and being a part of your community, you could put in a nice career with the Asheville Police Department.
21:02
SPEAKER_06: And and we've got openings for you right now.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've got, you know, and we've got several officers that went through AB Tech's Criminal Justice Associates program, came on as an officer, and then uh the city does tuition reimbursement for folks that want to get their bachelor's degree, their master's degree, um, if they wanted to, their doctorate degree.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's a great opportunity to work, gain experience, um, but also if you want to further your education, have the have the city pay for that.
21:29
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_06: And so uh if it gets them graduating classes uh of twenty-seven or thirty, we're gonna have to move that ceremony because the last couple that I've been to have been in in council chambers.
21:40
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it gets two packed in there.
21:41
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, there's like five and you you're filled.
21:43
SPEAKER_06: So that's a good that's good news.
21:45
SPEAKER_06: That's a good problem to have, as they say.
21:46
SPEAKER_06: Definitely.
21:47
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that could really get us uh doing some good things here in the Asheville.
21:50
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I hope so.
21:50
SPEAKER_06: All right.
21:51
SPEAKER_06: Ask the chief, folks.
21:52
SPEAKER_06: If you want to ask the chief, uh you can call just like Joe did at 250 8800, 250 8800, leave the That voicemail, Chief will answer your questions, or uh just like Laura from Oakley, APD Podcastfeedback at AshevilleNC.gov.
22:09
SPEAKER_06: Send that email apdpodcastfeedback at ashevillenc.gov.
22:15
SPEAKER_06: Chief Lamb, thanks for joining me again.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you, Rick.
22:18
SPEAKER_06: It's now time to meet the DCs, as in Deputy Chief Sean Artima and Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp.
22:25
SPEAKER_06: Thanks for joining me.
22:26
SPEAKER_06: Thanks for having us.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to be here.
22:27
SPEAKER_06: Okay, here's the first thing I learned uh as a member of the APD is that you guys love acronyms.
22:33
SPEAKER_06: I mean, it took me forever to figure it out.
22:35
SPEAKER_06: I still am, but here's the newest one, RTIC.
22:40
SPEAKER_06: All right, Sean, I'll let you explain what that means.
22:43
SPEAKER_05: I'll actually defer to Deputy Chief Step on this one.
22:46
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: All right.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh that acronym stands for Real-Time Intelligence Center.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
22:50
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
22:51
SPEAKER_06: And what does that mean to the future of the Asheville Police Department?
22:55
SPEAKER_06: What will we be able to do once we get this fully into place as far as crime solving?
23:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a centralized technology center that assists in gathering, analyzing, and investigating intelligence.
23:06
SPEAKER_06: I like it so far.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: It's an investigative tool that allows us to collaborate with community members to create a safer community and assist with the operations of APD and ongoing operational and crime reduction efforts.
23:19
SPEAKER_06: Sounds fancy.
23:20
SPEAKER_06: So in layman's terms, what are some of the things that it'll be able to do?
23:25
SPEAKER_06: How will it help the average officer, the average detective, some of the stuff that will really enhance their crime solving?
23:32
SPEAKER_00: I think by leveraging technology, um, the Real Time Crime Center will uh enhance situational awareness for officers and provide uh more precise and safer police operations.
23:44
SPEAKER_06: Aaron Powell It seems we've dipped our toes into the water just a little bit with it, and perhaps uh Deputy Chief Artemis, you could explain a little more.
23:51
SPEAKER_06: With the license plate readers, that's a part of it, right?
23:54
SPEAKER_05: It's a part.
23:55
SPEAKER_05: But also to add on to what Deputy Chief Step was talking about, I I spent a few years as a detective myself, and I could only dream of having access to to something like this back during that time.
24:08
SPEAKER_05: But first and foremost, one of the most difficult things for a detective to do is not always necessarily identifying the suspect.
24:16
SPEAKER_05: One of the hardest things to do is putting the suspect at the scene of the crime.
24:22
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
24:23
SPEAKER_05: And that is to me and to a lot of investigators, uh, something that there's a sincere interest in.
24:30
SPEAKER_05: Because this whole system, just like Deputy Chief Steph was saying, you're leveraging technology to kind of help solve that part of the puzzle for you.
24:40
SPEAKER_05: Um, because of the license plate readers, because of the integration of surveillance cameras from across the city.
24:46
SPEAKER_05: Uh, there's a number of different ways where it kind of takes that part out of the equation.
24:50
SPEAKER_05: If we can put the suspect at the scene, we're halfway there.
24:53
SPEAKER_05: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
24:53
SPEAKER_06: It's worth mentioning that we're not there yet.
24:56
SPEAKER_06: Uh, there being uh the logistics, the funding has not even been 100 percent secured, but the learning has begun.
25:03
SPEAKER_06: So I know that uh Deputy Chief Step, you recently went on a uh fact-finding mission of sorts to uh where was it, Forsyth County?
25:09
SPEAKER_00: We went to Forsyth, um, Winston-Salem, and a few others.
25:13
SPEAKER_06: Aaron Powell Okay.
25:14
SPEAKER_06: So where are we in the process of having the RTIC uh fully operational, funded, all of that?
25:21
SPEAKER_06: What part of the process are we at and how much more has to be done?
25:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh well, right now we're currently exploring hardware options, which is the actual cameras and the stationary license plate readers that we'll deploy throughout the city.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh we're looking at a couple of different vendors, so narrowing that down first and foremost for us.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Um we do have the funding allocated for that when we're ready to move forward.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: We are still waiting for the funding from the federal funding for for the actual software.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but officers would still be able to use once we deploy the cameras and license plate readers in the field, we'd still have access to that even as we await uh the other funding for the software.
26:02
SPEAKER_06: I recall a visit to our administration offices by Senator Chuck Edwards, who I know has been instrumental in securing the funding for the RTIC, which is how far out from full implementation in a perfect world, what's a date we're looking at?
26:16
SPEAKER_00: I think I'd optimistically uh I'd hope to have this running by summer 2025.
26:22
SPEAKER_06: Okay, so we're less than a year away.
26:24
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
26:24
SPEAKER_06: People hear the the words center and they imagine probably this big room or a series of rooms or a building or whatever.
26:31
SPEAKER_06: We will need physical space for this, right?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: We've identified the space we want to use.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: It's currently the Bunkham County 9-11 Backup Center, which is inside of our police headquarters.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: And their anticipated move out date or or starting to move out date is March 2025.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: So timeline, uh, I think we're right on par.
26:50
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
26:50
SPEAKER_06: How about staffing?
26:51
SPEAKER_06: Are we going to need to hire additional people?
26:52
SPEAKER_06: Is this going to be done within the department?
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh we've currently have two outstanding positions.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: They're called public safety analysts.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh those will be civilian staff that will work inside of the Real Time Intelligence Center.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: And then the we're currently exploring other options to bring some sworn staff uh in that as well.
27:10
SPEAKER_06: Exciting times for sure, and looking forward to hearing more updates as we move along in the process and get closer to implementation.
27:16
SPEAKER_06: So we kind of flipped the script a little bit today, got right into the meat and potatoes of learning about the RTIC instead of getting to know you.
27:24
SPEAKER_06: So let's do that now.
27:26
SPEAKER_06: Deputy Chief Sean Artima, Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp.
27:29
SPEAKER_06: Uh, what we do in our getting to know segment, uh, which we did earlier in this episode with Officer Isaiah Seniak, is ask him a few questions.
27:36
SPEAKER_06: So let's do that now.
27:37
SPEAKER_06: We'll call this segment Meet the DCs.
27:40
SPEAKER_06: So we'll start with you, Deputy Chief Sean Artima.
27:43
SPEAKER_06: Where were you born?
27:44
SPEAKER_05: I was born at Memorial Mission Hospital, just down the road from where we're sitting right now.
27:48
SPEAKER_06: How about that?
27:49
SPEAKER_05: I'm not going to tell you the year, but let's just say it was a different era.
27:53
SPEAKER_06: Deputy Chief Step, how about you?
27:55
SPEAKER_00: I was born at Party Hospital in Hendersonville, North Carolina.
27:59
SPEAKER_06: So both of you are true locals, born and bred right here in the Asheville area.
28:03
SPEAKER_06: See, I think people are really loving, embracing, supporting, finding it easier to get behind the fact that we have two deputy chiefs as well as a chief of police that are true Western North Carolinians.
28:14
SPEAKER_06: It gives you unique insight to the community, to the people.
28:17
SPEAKER_06: Uh how about one thing that most people don't know about you, Deputy Chief Artemon?
28:24
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's kind of a conjunction of things.
28:26
SPEAKER_05: So starting in middle school and into high school and into partially college, uh, my main focus of both study and my free time was in the arts.
28:35
SPEAKER_05: Um I was a pencil artist, uh, did that quite a bit all throughout high school.
28:41
SPEAKER_05: Actually ended up winning a couple of awards for it.
28:43
SPEAKER_05: Wow.
28:44
SPEAKER_05: And played the guitar, took guitar lessons from the time I was about 11 years old until I graduated high school.
28:49
SPEAKER_06: So I I know you love music.
28:50
SPEAKER_06: We hear it coming from your office on a regular basis.
28:53
SPEAKER_06: If you what what type of music do you like to play?
28:56
SPEAKER_06: I know what type you like to know.
28:58
SPEAKER_05: Here's the thing is I haven't played in a very long time, and it is not like riding a bicycle.
29:03
SPEAKER_06: No, it isn't.
29:04
SPEAKER_05: Uh it does not come back to you just after, you know, a year or two, or in my case, longer.
29:10
SPEAKER_05: Uh, it's definitely a perishable skill.
29:12
SPEAKER_05: There's a lot of music that I used to be able to play and that I intend to pick back up again.
29:18
SPEAKER_05: I keep telling Deputy Chief Step when my retirement date he disagrees with it.
29:24
SPEAKER_05: Uh but yeah, post-retirement I I fully intend to get back into it.
29:28
SPEAKER_06: I I guess once you you landed your wife with your skills on the guitar, you just kind of let it let it go.
29:33
SPEAKER_06: That's because the chicks, they dig it, right?
29:35
SPEAKER_06: I hate to say that.
29:36
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like that was that may have been part of the attraction for me when I was 12, 13 years old, but uh turned out it was just something I enjoyed as well.
29:45
SPEAKER_06: How about the pencil sketching and stuff like that?
29:47
SPEAKER_05: That's that's incredibly unique.
29:49
SPEAKER_05: I don't know if I'd say that it's incredibly unique.
29:51
SPEAKER_05: Um it's not something you see terribly often, but just something I picked up, usually terrible at drawing people.
29:58
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
29:58
SPEAKER_05: Although one of the awards that I won was for uh a picture I drew of uh a lady with wearing a veil.
30:04
SPEAKER_05: Title of the piece of work was Veiled Lady.
30:06
SPEAKER_05: Uh that was in high school.
30:08
SPEAKER_05: Makes perfect sense.
30:09
SPEAKER_05: Um, but most of my drawings are of buildings, uh urban landscapes, things like that.
30:16
SPEAKER_06: Uh number two pencil?
30:17
SPEAKER_06: Was that your pencil of choice?
30:18
SPEAKER_05: Uh no, I've got a whole kit.
30:20
SPEAKER_05: Of course you do.
30:22
SPEAKER_05: The number two is the only one I'm familiar with.
30:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, number two, yeah.
30:25
SPEAKER_05: That was the one like in high school where we didn't have a lot of disposable income to buy like special drawing pencils.
30:32
SPEAKER_06: Is there really a number one and a number three in a hole down the line?
30:35
SPEAKER_06: I just I just assume number two is the only one, and why did they just jump to that?
30:39
SPEAKER_05: It's mainly just the thickness of the graphite or the medium.
30:43
SPEAKER_05: I I knew.
30:44
SPEAKER_05: And the the tint of the pencil.
30:47
SPEAKER_06: Okay, we're we're gonna spend an entire episode on this at one point.
30:51
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
30:51
SPEAKER_06: This I promise.
30:52
SPEAKER_06: All right.
30:52
SPEAKER_06: Okay, now, Deputy Chief Step, one thing about you that most people do not know.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, let's see here.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: I would say um most people may not know that I am an identical twin and no, she has not came to work in my place yet.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Um and then that I also have twins.
31:11
SPEAKER_06: Okay, so you're a twin, you've got twins.
31:13
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
31:13
SPEAKER_06: That is wild.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: They uh unfortunately for them though, they are not able to pull one over on me because I am certain that uh my sister and I have done it all.
31:22
SPEAKER_06: And can you tell them apart?
31:23
SPEAKER_06: I mean, are they fraternal or identical?
31:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm identical, but my twins are fraternal.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: So not only personality, but they they don't look alike either.
31:32
SPEAKER_06: Okay, let's go back to your growing up though.
31:34
SPEAKER_06: How about you and your sister?
31:35
SPEAKER_06: Did you ever do a swap?
31:37
SPEAKER_06: Did you ever mess with anyone, teachers, anything?
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: We had we had we had a lot of fun uh growing up in high school, April schools.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:46
SPEAKER_06: I mean, you got that superpower, you've got to use it, don't you?
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:49
SPEAKER_06: Did you have one that stands out, one prank?
31:51
SPEAKER_06: Did who did you mess with?
31:52
SPEAKER_06: You got to tell me at least one story about that.
31:54
SPEAKER_06: Because I know that if I had that ability, I would have used it all the time.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, our uh probably just switching classes is what we talk about the most.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Just uh, you know, going to PE multiple times a day just to get out of your academic class.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we have some good stories.
32:09
SPEAKER_06: Were you ever found out during your charade?
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Not till the end of the school year.
32:16
SPEAKER_06: I appreciate you guys joining me so much today.
32:19
SPEAKER_06: We're looking forward to hearing more about the RTIC, the real-time intelligence center.
32:24
SPEAKER_06: Did I get that right?
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:26
SPEAKER_06: Good deal.
32:27
SPEAKER_06: I need to know these things, you know.
32:28
SPEAKER_06: So many acronyms.
32:29
SPEAKER_06: Deputy Chief Step, Deputy Chief Artima, thanks so much for joining me on the APD Pod Squad.
32:37
SPEAKER_06: Joining me now is Detective Sam DeGrave to tell the story of the manhunt of Michael John Shornock.
32:43
SPEAKER_06: Sam, thanks for joining me.
32:44
SPEAKER_03: Hey, Rick, thanks.
32:45
SPEAKER_03: It's good to be here.
32:46
SPEAKER_06: You know, when people think manhunt in Western North Carolina, I think the name that comes to mind for most of them is Eric Rudolph.
32:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'd say that certainly is fair.
32:56
SPEAKER_06: I mean, 1996 was the year for that that it began.
32:59
SPEAKER_06: It didn't end until 2003.
33:02
SPEAKER_06: The man was on the loose for seven years.
33:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's one that is certainly a textbook manhunt example from Western North Carolina, although the region has had a few more fairly large manhunts that either were eclipsed by Rudolph or or came afterward and didn't quite generate the national level of interest that that did.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Uh most recently, Philip Michael Stroop II comes to mind.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: But the Michael John Schornock case was was certainly a large manhunt as well.
33:34
SPEAKER_06: Eric Rudolph began in 1996, ended in 2003 when he was caught dumpster diving in Murphy, North Carolina.
33:41
SPEAKER_06: For those people new to the area, you really should look that one up on your own sometime.
33:44
SPEAKER_06: It's a it's a fascinating story.
33:46
SPEAKER_06: We're gonna go back ten years prior, beginning of that in 1996, which began at the Olympics uh in Atlanta with Rudolph.
33:54
SPEAKER_06: Uh we're gonna go back to 1986, the fall of that year, right around Thanksgiving.
33:59
SPEAKER_06: A bit of a disclaimer before we begin, because you were not a member of the Asheville Police Department when this occurred in 1986.
34:05
SPEAKER_06: Most of your research and then subsequent retelling of the story and uh sharing with the Asheville Police Department in our internal newsletter called the APD Informate is done from uh researching other popular accounts of the day, mostly other media like the New York Times, etc.
34:21
SPEAKER_06: So many people living here know about the story of Michael John Shornock.
34:25
SPEAKER_06: Many do not.
34:26
SPEAKER_03: I'd say that's fair.
34:28
SPEAKER_03: It's interesting, as large an event as it was, and we'll get into that in a moment.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: You can run into people in Western North Carolina that know a lot about this or that know very little about it.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I guess the nature of Western North Carolina, especially the Asheville area recently is is one of turnover.
34:45
SPEAKER_03: There's not a lot of people who you meet that were here in 1986.
34:48
SPEAKER_07: Right, yeah.
34:49
SPEAKER_03: The ones that were mostly remember at least parts of this story, if not very specific details.
34:55
SPEAKER_03: And if you talk to enough people who were around back then as I have in preparation for telling this story, you'll find some people that have personal connection to it.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: Uh APD's very own Sergeant Charles Wells was found himself in the middle of it, and we'll we'll get to that a little bit later.
35:11
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, there's there's a lot of people here who who remember it well.
35:14
SPEAKER_06: So Michael John Shornock, not a native to Western North Carolina.
35:17
SPEAKER_06: The story ends in Western North Carolina, but let's go back to where the story begins.
35:22
SPEAKER_06: First of all, tell us a little bit about the man, Michael John Shornock, and who he was and how he came to be what he was.
35:31
SPEAKER_03: So Michael John Shornock grew up in the 70s and 80s and split his time between Pennsylvania and North Carolina.
35:39
SPEAKER_03: In fact, in the late 70s, he moved with his family.
35:43
SPEAKER_03: Uh his parents were both sharecroppers, and they moved from Pennsylvania.
35:47
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember the where of Pennsylvania, because it's not as important to the story, but they moved to Swansboro, North Carolina, which is eastern North Carolina.
35:55
SPEAKER_03: As you mentioned, the story ends in the mountains and it starts out east.
35:59
SPEAKER_03: Michael Shhornock grew up with his family, two parents who were sharecroppers, and his brother, Jeff, and I believe he had other siblings as well, in what was described by his brother and friends from the time as a very strict household.
36:14
SPEAKER_03: And he quickly, upon moving to the coast of North Carolina, developed a love and affinity for wetlands and swamps around his house.
36:24
SPEAKER_06: Uh which is already, in my mind, a strange way to spend your time because anybody that's been into a swamp, it's a it's a very unpleasant place.
36:33
SPEAKER_06: It it generally.
36:35
SPEAKER_06: Bugs and snakes and uh down east, probably alligators and spiders that are as big as your fist.
36:41
SPEAKER_06: So to choose to spend your time in a swamp, that's kind of strange in and of itself.
36:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I th I'm with you.
36:49
SPEAKER_03: I I grew up here in the mountains.
36:50
SPEAKER_03: So mountains are what I love.
36:53
SPEAKER_03: I I can go out in the mountains and camp and enjoy myself.
36:56
SPEAKER_03: After about a week at the beach, I'm usually done and ready to come back.
37:00
SPEAKER_03: Uh it wasn't the case with uh Michael Schornhoff, certainly.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:05
SPEAKER_03: Uh his brother recounted the manhunt that his brother would spend days and weeks at a time in in the swamps.
37:13
SPEAKER_03: He would disappear in the summer when they were off school.
37:17
SPEAKER_03: His mom recounted that he would keep diaries of all the different game that he was hunting, the the fish that he was catching, and through the winter, I think family members recounted that he would set traps for all sorts of critters in the wilderness that he would then put on the table of the family.
37:35
SPEAKER_03: So certainly a self-taught survivalist who who found himself in the swamps of North Carolina and really identified with that terrain.
37:45
SPEAKER_06: So from other written accounts, Michael John Shornock had an unsettled upbringing, to be kind, a bit of a loner, with a distaste for authority.
37:53
SPEAKER_06: Sound right?
37:54
SPEAKER_03: What we do know about uh Shornock matches what you just said, and uh things really start going awry for him by 1985, so a year before he comes to western North Carolina.
38:05
SPEAKER_03: So they went downhill in a hurry, then it sounds like.
38:07
SPEAKER_06: I mean, were there some warning signs early on?
38:09
SPEAKER_03: In the early 80s, he graduated from high school in Carteret County in eastern North Carolina, and upon graduation he moved to Florida, where he worked in construction and often sought the swamps of Florida as uh refuge from his normal life.
38:29
SPEAKER_03: I believe his mother recounted that while he was in Florida, she had somewhat close contact with him and knew that he had some minor, what he described as minor run-ins with the law.
38:40
SPEAKER_03: I don't know to what extent he really connected with police prior to 1985, but that's when the story really starts to pick up.
38:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
38:49
SPEAKER_03: He moved back to North Carolina from Florida where he'd been working in construction, and when he showed up, he showed up in a stolen car.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: He told his mom that the car was stolen and ended up in a high-speed chase that spanned three counties with law enforcement in eastern North Carolina.
39:08
SPEAKER_03: And he ended up being arrested and charged with several traffic violations for the uh chase and then with possession of the stolen car.
39:18
SPEAKER_03: And by I believe it was summer, like June of 85, he is sentenced to prison for his involvement with that initial car chase.
39:28
SPEAKER_03: He actually escaped from court at one point during those proceedings and was hunted down as an escape and caught in what will become a theme in this story in a swamp.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: Um but he's brought back and he he ends up doing about a year in prison before he's paroled out early before the end of, I believe it was a three or five year sentence.
39:52
SPEAKER_06: So it didn't take him long to, you know, pick up his old ways, I guess, and run into the police once again.
39:57
SPEAKER_03: No, it didn't.
39:58
SPEAKER_03: Um he got out, I believe, in in or around June of eighty-six, and when he got out, his brother Jeff and his mom would recount later that he came out changed, that he was still reserved, but that he was quite vocal about his extreme distaste for authority.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: And he told his mom not long after he got out that his life was not going to be an easy one and that it was probably going to feature more run-ins with police.
40:30
SPEAKER_06: Safe to say he blamed the police for where his life went, I guess, for lack of a better term.
40:36
SPEAKER_06: I mean, it's kind of uh Yeah, that's what his family said.
40:39
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
40:39
SPEAKER_03: Um when they spoke with the press at the time.
40:42
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
40:42
SPEAKER_06: Detective Sam DeGrabe joins me, and we're talking about Michael John Shornock in the manhunt that led to his eventual capture, and we don't want to spoiler alert at the end, but occurred in 1986.
40:53
SPEAKER_06: Uh so he's out of prison now after a short uh stint there for uh stealing the car, and so what happens next?
40:59
SPEAKER_03: Aaron Ross Powell So he's out of prison, and as I mentioned a moment ago, uh sending foreboding messages to family about what his intent is uh as he begins to assimilate back into society, or at least to attempt to.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: And he gets a job, loses the job, and by August of 86, so within a couple months of getting out, he sends a note to his parole officer that he doesn't have a job, and then he falls off the map.
41:28
SPEAKER_03: By September of that year, his probation officer, or parole officer rather, takes out a warrant for his arrest for violating his conditions, and then his run-ins with the law began shortly thereafter and are quite frequent in the fall of 1986, leading up to his eventual capture in Western North Carolina.
41:51
SPEAKER_06: So, what brought him to Western North Carolina?
41:54
SPEAKER_03: A lot of what we know about what happened between Shornock's release from prison up until his ultimate capture comes from popular media accounts that were circulating at the time.
42:08
SPEAKER_03: This story, as you'll hear with good reason, ended up being circulated broadly across the nation.
42:14
SPEAKER_03: The New York Times wrote about it, the Los Angeles Times, the Atlanta Journal Constitution, all of these publications found interest in the Shorenock manhunt.
42:23
SPEAKER_03: And so some of the specifics, the days, they they change and fluctuate depending on what account you read.
42:32
SPEAKER_03: But to answer your question, and in broad strokes, what led him to North Carolina specifically, the western portion of the state was several run-ins with the law.
42:43
SPEAKER_03: Again, in September, he got a warrant for violating the conditions of his parole, and shortly thereafter, he broke into a pawn shop in Jacksonville, North Carolina, where he stole several guns and then later burglarized a house and stole a car.
43:02
SPEAKER_03: Both of these run-ins followed one another in short succession, and he ended up in a car chase with police in eastern North Carolina.
43:13
SPEAKER_03: Like that initial one that sent him to prison spanned multiple counties.
43:18
SPEAKER_03: He disappeared for a little while and resurfaced near Emerald Isle.
43:22
SPEAKER_03: After getting in a shootout with police, he stole a boat from Emerald Isle and took that boat all the way down the coast to Florida.
43:30
SPEAKER_06: So, how about once he got to Florida, what was that like?
43:32
SPEAKER_06: I understand there was a few incidents there as well, maybe even a manhunt?
43:36
SPEAKER_03: There were several manhunts that happened in Florida and a particularly interesting incident.
43:40
SPEAKER_03: I assume that you're talking about the uh the killing of the dog.
43:43
SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's that takes a special type of psycho to shoot a dog.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so when Shornock arrived in Florida, and this is one of those times where the details, the timeline is difficult to nail down with popular media.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: Accounts.
44:01
SPEAKER_03: But after he arrived in Florida, he was encountered by the police a couple of different times.
44:07
SPEAKER_03: The first one seems to be at a dock where he was encountered trying to steal fuel and fuel the boat that he had stolen from Emerald Isle.
44:17
SPEAKER_03: He's encountered by police after people call in suspicious activity at this boat fueling station.
44:24
SPEAKER_03: When he's approached by police, he dives into the water and swims into a mangrove swamp and disappears.
44:30
SPEAKER_03: And they search the boat and they find a diary that he had kept.
44:34
SPEAKER_03: And as his mom had explained, when he was growing up in eastern North Carolina, he kept a diary of game that he was hunting.
44:42
SPEAKER_03: And she described this diary that was found in his boat as a diary of new game that he's hunting, that being humans.
44:52
SPEAKER_03: This guy's like Rambo light.
44:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:54
SPEAKER_03: Well, it's funny you mentioned that because after he disappears into that swamp, he he resurfaces in October in Port Orange, Florida, in the home of a woman named Carla Jones.
45:08
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
45:08
SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to read to you from an account at the time that is Carla Jones' account to the media after she has met Michael John Shornock, who, as you mentioned a minute ago, is Rambo-like and we'll get to meet his uh, I guess, alter ego.
45:24
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
45:24
SPEAKER_03: So Carla Jones, 39, said she was in her bathroom at about 7 15 AM Saturday when she heard her three and a half year old pit bull, Maui, bark.
45:33
SPEAKER_03: She then heard a shot and walked into her living room, quote, to find my dog dead and a man standing there with a gun in his hand.
45:40
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
45:40
SPEAKER_03: Jones said he was a blonde, blue-eyed, surfer-looking boy dressed in blue jeans and a camouflage shirt and jacket.
45:47
SPEAKER_03: He was also wearing a shoulder holster.
45:49
SPEAKER_03: Quote, he looked like Rambo, and that's what police told me he called himself, Jones said.
45:54
SPEAKER_03: It's funny you mentioned Rambo because from that point forward, maybe even a little bit before, it's difficult to determine when he took that name.
46:04
SPEAKER_03: But from that point, certainly forward, in almost every popular media account that was written about this man Hunt, Rambo is the target.
46:13
SPEAKER_03: Michael John Shornock ceases to be anything other than a formality that's put in the beginning of a news story, and then from then on it it's Rambo.
46:23
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I forget the exact year that movie came out, but it was probably uh 84, maybe 83?
46:28
SPEAKER_03: It was it was uh right about then, I think.
46:30
SPEAKER_03: I believe it's eighty-two.
46:32
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
46:32
SPEAKER_03: It sounds right.
46:33
SPEAKER_03: At the time that this is happening, Michael John Schornock is twenty-one years old.
46:39
SPEAKER_03: He's thin, much slighter in build than Sly.
46:43
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, not exactly Sylvester Stallone that way.
46:46
SPEAKER_03: No, not not exactly.
46:48
SPEAKER_06: Well the survival skills, yeah, being in the woods like that and the different uh tendencies.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, his behavior certainly is.
46:55
SPEAKER_03: So Carla Jones finds this guy who's calling himself Rambo in her her living room standing over her dead dog, and his behavior during their interaction gets more bizarre.
47:09
SPEAKER_03: He asks her to cook him dinner, she reheats him spaghetti while being held at gunpoint.
47:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh he eats the spaghetti leftovers that she serves him and asks her for clothes and transportation.
47:23
SPEAKER_03: She doesn't have much in the way of clothes to provide him, but he showers at her house.
47:27
SPEAKER_03: And while he's showering, he asks her to read to him from a newspaper so that he knows that she's not calling the police, but because he's also curious what the police are saying about him and these this ongoing manhunt that's taking place.
47:42
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
47:43
SPEAKER_03: And ultimately, uh he ends up stealing a motorcycle from Carla and disappears.
47:50
SPEAKER_03: Rambo stole a motorcycle in the movie.
47:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:53
SPEAKER_03: It it's it's funny.
47:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying.
47:56
SPEAKER_03: It there's there's a lot of similarities.
47:59
SPEAKER_03: Um so ultimately, I I think he even patches some wounds that he has from that initial chase where he disappears into the swab.
48:07
SPEAKER_06: Another similarity of sorts.
48:09
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
48:10
SPEAKER_06: Okay, so he gets away from this house, and thankfully that woman was unharmed, although her dog didn't uh have a very good fate.
48:16
SPEAKER_06: Uh so where next for him?
48:18
SPEAKER_03: It's difficult to know.
48:19
SPEAKER_03: He gets into a manhunt, and that much is sure or we're certain of in Brevard County, Florida, where more than forty officers respond, several uh canine officers with blood bloodhounds looking for him, and we lose track of him.
48:36
SPEAKER_03: Uh he disappears into the swamp and Brevard County never sees him again.
48:42
SPEAKER_03: They believe that he showed up in Brunswick, Georgia while he was en route from Florida back to North Carolina.
48:49
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
48:50
SPEAKER_03: Restaurant owner is was killed outside of Brunswick, Georgia, and Shornack was never ultimately charged, but was suspected in this murder, this interstate murder while he's traveling from Florida to North Carolina.
49:06
SPEAKER_03: And he shows up in eastern North Carolina first in early November of 1986 after having fled Florida.
49:16
SPEAKER_03: An associate of his ends up explaining to police after his associate is captured that they rented a car while Michael Shornock was assuming a false name in Florida, and that that vehicle shows up in a Wilmington area bank robbery in early November of eighty six.
49:36
SPEAKER_06: So we're getting closer and closer to the arrival in western North Carolina.
49:40
SPEAKER_06: When approximately did he make his way to the mountains?
49:43
SPEAKER_06: Is it just right before Thanksgiving?
49:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, probably within a week of Thanksgiving.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: And he was at this point of eighty six.
49:51
SPEAKER_06: Just trying to run from the police again?
49:52
SPEAKER_06: Is this kind of the precipice for this?
49:54
SPEAKER_03: Well, initially he shows up in eastern North Carolina in this in this rented brown Buick and robs a bank and gets in another vehicle pursuit with police in eastern North Carolina that spans multiple counties and ends when he opens he and his passenger open fire on the police that are chasing them, rendering one of the highway patrolmen's cars unusable.
50:20
SPEAKER_03: He shoots through the windshield, the highway patrolman catches glass in his eyes and is unable to continue the pursuit, and they disappear.
50:28
SPEAKER_03: This guy is a slippery bugger, isn't he?
50:31
SPEAKER_03: So this is from Jim O'Malley, who is a detective sergeant with the Onslow County Sheriff's Department, and he said in 1986 that when Shornack gets in the woods, he disappears.
50:42
SPEAKER_03: He's a regular Rambo, O'Malley said.
50:45
SPEAKER_03: I have to give it to him.
50:46
SPEAKER_03: He's good.
50:46
SPEAKER_03: He's a survivalist.
50:48
SPEAKER_03: He he told the press.
50:49
SPEAKER_03: Unless you've got Daniel Boone after him, and apparently we didn't.
50:52
SPEAKER_03: He's gone.
50:54
SPEAKER_03: So he certainly is slippery, and he develops a reputation for evading manhunts that I think is what ultimately that plus the Rambo connection, especially only a couple years after Rambo came out, are what cultivate this national media mystique about Michael John Shornock.
51:14
SPEAKER_06: And if it the story ended here, it would already be a story, but it doesn't.
51:19
SPEAKER_06: So on the next episode of the APD Pod Squad, we'll get his arrival in Western North Carolina and then what happened next.
51:26
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
51:27
SPEAKER_06: All right.
51:27
SPEAKER_06: Looking forward to that with Detective Sam DeGrave telling the story of Michael John Shornock.
51:32
SPEAKER_06: Make sure you join us for the next episode of the APD Pod Squad.
51:35
SPEAKER_06: You don't want to miss the dramatic conclusion of, I don't want to say his life, but that's accurate.
51:42
SPEAKER_03: Yes, indeed.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: And at the time, the largest manhunt that had ever unfolded in Western North Carolina.
51:48
SPEAKER_06: Well, there we go.
51:49
SPEAKER_06: Next episode of the APD Pod Squad.
51:52
SPEAKER_06: Thanks for listening to the APD Pod Squad.
51:55
SPEAKER_06: If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a single episode.
51:59
SPEAKER_06: On the next episode, Getting to Know Officer Lakeisha Hawes, another edition of Ask the Chief.
52:05
SPEAKER_06: If you've got questions for Chief Mike Lamb, give us a call at 250-8800.
52:09
SPEAKER_06: Leave a voicemail, 250-8800, and we'll play yours back just like we did Joe earlier this episode.
52:16
SPEAKER_06: Or you can email us APD Podcast Feedback at AshevilleNC.gov.
52:21
SPEAKER_06: Also on the next episode.
52:23
SPEAKER_06: From the Patrol Department Community Engagement Division, Lieutenant Chris Byers will find out where the APD is going to be out and about.
52:29
SPEAKER_06: And part two, dare I say the dramatic conclusion of the manhunt for Michael John Shornock.
52:35
SPEAKER_06: I'm Rick Rice, and this is the APD Pod Squad.