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Why "Good Communication Skills" Can't Fix Bad Cycles · Trauma Free Relationship

• 0:10
  Welcome to trauma free relationship.
• 0:12
  I'm Tom Phillip. I've been working with couples
• 0:15
  for decades to help them break those painful patterns that keep
• 0:20
  them stuck so they can restore communication repair quicker and
• 0:25
  stay connected longer. Now I'm really excited about
• 0:29
  this episode today because we're going to talk about why do good
• 0:33
  communication skills? Why don't they fix bad cycles?
• 0:38
  Why aren't improving communication skills enough to
• 0:42
  sometimes fix the relationship? So you've probably heard, you
• 0:46
  know, use I statements, practice active listening.
• 0:50
  And those are all good communication skills, don't get
• 0:53
  me wrong. But there's also a problem.
• 0:55
  A lot of times what we see is they don't actually work in the
• 0:58
  real world. Sometimes using I statements
• 1:02
  still doesn't stop your partner being defensive.
• 1:05
  Sometimes practicing good active listening skills still can can
• 1:10
  cause your partner to get dysregulated or or upset or
• 1:15
  maybe they feel like you're not really still hearing them.
• 1:17
  So even though these are good communication skills, they don't
• 1:21
  always fix the cycles that are happening in the relationship.
• 1:27
  The number one reason couples come to me, I probably hear more
• 1:31
  than any other reason, is we need to work on our
• 1:34
  communication. We've got bad communication and,
• 1:37
  and they're not wrong, right? All the couples and even
• 1:40
  individuals that that I work with, they're not wrong.
• 1:43
  There is a communication issue there, but it's rarely the words
• 1:47
  that they're saying to each other.
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  Rather they've got something else that's going on that's
• 1:52
  actually breaking down the communication and causing
• 1:57
  problems in the relationship. And that's because there's these
• 2:00
  hidden patterns inside the relationship that's actually
• 2:04
  breaking down the communication. So we're going to talk today
• 2:08
  about 3 different things that are causing a causing breakdown
• 2:16
  of communications. First of all, good communication
• 2:19
  skills don't fix bad cycles because the nervous system, when
• 2:25
  it is dysregulated, it overrides communication skills when when
• 2:30
  you are in fight or flight or when you are in freeze or font.
• 2:33
  If you've been triggered and you are now popped out of the window
• 2:37
  of tolerance, what that essentially means is that you're
• 2:44
  no longer able to draw on the area of your brain right up here
• 2:50
  in the prefrontal cortex where you can think, logic, reason,
• 2:56
  use empathy, organize your thoughts.
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  All of that stuff is sort of offline, so to speak.
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  I hate to use a computer metaphor for the brain, but
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  there's some similarities between the two And, and when
• 3:10
  you are dysregulated, you cannot communicate well.
• 3:15
  You cannot communicate your intentions very well.
• 3:18
  You cannot communicate the deeper levels of meaning that
• 3:21
  you're trying to communicate to your partner.
• 3:24
  And all those things are essential for being understood.
• 3:27
  So the first thing we're going to talk about is the nervous
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  system overrides our ability to communicate in the moment.
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  The second one is, and this is the key point here, the cycle is
• 3:38
  the problem, not the words. It's not that you can't
• 3:41
  understand your partner's words, it's just that you guys are now
• 3:45
  caught in a cycle that's actually breaking down the
• 3:50
  ability to communicate and connect in that moment.
• 3:54
  And finally, skills don't address the emotional needs that
• 3:59
  are underneath. So we can talk all day long to
• 4:03
  our partner about surface level issues.
• 4:06
  We can argue about why you didn't text back.
• 4:09
  We can argue about whose turn it is to clean the dishes or to put
• 4:12
  the kids to bed, right? Those are all surface level
• 4:15
  issues. But if we're not being able to
• 4:17
  talk about and drill down deeper in those conversations, then
• 4:22
  we're not able to really fix our communication skills anyway.
• 4:26
  And again, that's probably because we are caught in cycles
• 4:31
  that are breaking down that communication.
• 4:35
  So let's start with the first one.
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  As I mentioned, when one or both partners are triggered, the
• 4:41
  nervous system overrides the ability to communicate in the
• 4:46
  moment. It literally weakens your
• 4:48
  communication skills in the moment.
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  And it does that because one or both partners have become
• 4:55
  dysregulated. And so think about it this way.
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  You know, it, it, you could be the best driver in the world,
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  right? And you, maybe you have superior
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  driving skills in, in your automobile.
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  And you know, you, you can, you can weave in out of the cones
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  like we see on all those car commercials and things like
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  that. But the best driver in the world
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  cannot handle the car well or even at all if they hit black
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  ice. So think about, you know, when
• 5:28
  we get dysregulated, our nervous system now is, is popped out of
• 5:34
  the window of tolerance. And as a result, we're in fight
• 5:37
  or flight because that's the most common too.
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  That's like being on black ice. And no matter how good of a
• 5:45
  communicator you might be, no matter how good of a
• 5:48
  communicator I might be, and if you've seen any of my videos,
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  maybe you can argue that point. Maybe I'm not always
• 5:53
  communicating really well. I certainly can understand that.
• 5:57
  But no matter how well we might be able to communicate when
• 6:00
  we're on black ice, when we are dysregulated, we're not working
• 6:05
  out of the area of our brain that allows us really to put
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  together a coherent argument to to to be able to draw on our own
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  experience and, and think inward about what's happening inside of
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  us. Rather, we tend to focus on the
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  source of danger. And so we look outside of
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  ourselves. So that's why they talk about
• 6:31
  using by statements and active listening skills.
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  But when we're triggered, what we do, because when we're
• 6:38
  triggered, we're in our protection, right?
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  We are, we are feeling a sense of danger in our relationship,
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  either in our relationship or to our sense of self.
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  And we focus on the point of that danger.
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  And that's usually our partner. And so we're fixated on whatever
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  it is they did or said or the look on their face or their tone
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  that caused us to be triggered in the 1st place.
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  And, and that's what we're honing in on.
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  Well, that, that by that sheer mechanism of doing that, meaning
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  that we're now in our protective system and not in our connective
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  system. As a result, we're, we're not,
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  we're not focusing in on all the other maybe positive things that
• 7:21
  they have said. They may have said, well, I'm
• 7:23
  sorry I didn't text you back, but I had blah, blah, blah,
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  blah, blah going on. What we hear is I'm sorry I
• 7:28
  didn't text you back. Oh, you're not important enough
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  to me to set these things aside, right?
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  And maybe that's not even what they're saying, but we're
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  filtering a lot of that out because we're looking through a
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  protective frame and a protective system in those
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  moments. So when we get dysregulated,
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  it's very much like being on black ice.
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  And no matter how how an effective communicator we might
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  be, when we're on black ice, we are not going to be able to
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  communicate effectively. We're not going to be able to
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  control the car. We've got to get to an area
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  where we can stop, pull to the side and get off or get out of
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  the way of the black guys and get back on pavement.
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  That actually allows us to have traction, right?
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  And and This is why in our cycle reset problem, we always talk
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  about regulation before communication.
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  Regulation before communication, because unless you get out of
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  the black ice and back on a place where you've got now
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  friction with the tires, you're not going to be able to control
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  that car very well. And being dysregulated is a
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  little bit like that. It also makes me think of that
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  John Mayer song. And we're slow dancing in a
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  burning room right here. We are, you know, slow dancing
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  together and the whole house is burning down around us and yet
• 8:56
  we're acting like it's not even happening.
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  Well, that's going to affect us. It's going to affect our ability
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  to interact. It's going to affect our ability
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  to dance in that moment, and eventually that cycle is going
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  to get the better of us. Maybe in that moment, maybe long
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  term, it certainly breaks down trust.
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  We know that as a fact, when cycles get rigid inside
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  relationships, when they last for years at a time, they
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  breakdown trust, they breakdown a sense of safety, and they
• 9:32
  breakdown the resilience of the partner.
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  They end up feeling more like they're walking on egg shells
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  and very much less like they can come to their partner and depend
• 9:43
  on their partner and their partner will actually hear them
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  and respond in a way that feels safe and feels secure in that
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  relationship. So, you know, another sort of
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  metaphor we could use is sort of rearranging the deck chairs on
• 10:01
  the Titanic. I'm sure you've heard that
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  before, right? Without focusing on these
• 10:06
  cycles, trying to fix your communication skills is like
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  rearranging the chairs. Deck chairs on the Titanic.
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  The Titanic's going down. Rearranging the chairs aren't
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  going to matter. It's it's, it's, it's futile to
• 10:23
  do that. Trying to fix communication
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  skills when the couple is caught in cycles is a little bit the
• 10:30
  same. It's like trying to rearrange
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  the deck chairs for the next day's performance while the
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  Titanic sinking. So we want to put First things
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  first. And so we've got to hone in on
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  those cycles. So one of the things the cycles
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  do or they can't do rather is they can't fix communication
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  skills when we're dysregulated. And when we, when we pop out of
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  that window of tolerance again, it's it's sort of like trying to
• 11:00
  communicate better, but the cycles taken over.
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  So we'll just kind of go over here and try to rearrange the
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  deck chairs even though we're caught in the middle of a cycle
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  or here we are slipping and sliding, twirling around on
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  black eyes. And no matter how good of a
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  driver we are, as long as we're on black eyes, as long as we're
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  stuck in this cycle, we're not going to be able to communicate
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  effectively. So that's the first thing is
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  that why does good communication skills, why don't they fix bad
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  cycles? Because usually cycles are an
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  escalation of triggers. They're an escalation of the
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  nervous system that now has gone into fight or flight.
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  And when you are escalated or you pop out of the window of
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  tolerance, however you want to say that, however you have come
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  to kind of know that that that first things got to be first.
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  We've got to get regulated, right?
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  We've got to get in the lifeboats and put on the life
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  jackets and quit messing around with the chairs.
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  We've got to get off the black ice.
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  If we can pull over, get on good traction where our skills as a
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  driver can take back over. So that's really important,
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  being able to recognize that no matter how good of communication
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  skills you might have, if you're caught in a cycle, it's not
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  going to matter how well the communicator you are.
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  You've got to be able to de escalate and regulate that cycle
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  first, then you can communicate better.
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  All right, this the second one we've already even touched on a
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  little bit is the cycle's the problem, not the words.
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  And I've, I've said this, you know, so many times, it's it's
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  about being focused more on the process and less on the content.
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  And if there's, I don't know if there's just one thing, there's
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  so many things I would like to teach couples and and
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  individuals to focus on, but this is certainly up there for
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  me. Paying attention to the process
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  when you interact with your partner and not just the content
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  is such an important skill in the relationship that I cannot
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  emphasize it enough. What do I mean by that?
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  When I say talk about the process or focus on the process,
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  not just the content, The content is the words.
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  It's the words you're saying to each other.
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  It's the words you're hearing which are important, don't get
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  me wrong, but they're not nearly as important as as the
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  inflection, as the tone, as the facial expressions that are
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  actually behind the words. For example, I can come in at
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  the end of a long day. Maybe my wife is in the kitchen
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  preparing dinner and I can come in and I can say, how was your
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  day? OK, that that kind of hits a
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  little bracive, doesn't it? It's like, OK, clearly he's not
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  had a good day, right? Or I can come in at the end of
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  the day and I can say, how was your day?
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  Totally, totally. Same words, but very different
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  tone of voice. My partner's going to react
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  different depending on my tone of voice.
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  It matters. And because if and if she turns
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  around and she says, well, it was all right.
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  It doesn't sound like you're doing well.
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  Are you OK? Did you have a bad day?
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  Oh, you wouldn't believe it. Yeah.
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  Sorry. I didn't mean to bark that out,
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  but yeah, yeah, I've had a horrible day.
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  OK, well, let's talk about it. Come up, pull up a chair.
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  Let me hear about what's going on.
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  Right. Depending on how they respond,
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  she would be in tune to the process of what's happening
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  between US and, and, and not just focused on the words.
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  She might turn around and say, why did you say it that way?
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  I didn't do anything wrong. OK, well, that's not focusing on
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  the process, that's fixating on the words.
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  And maybe that's a great way to say that I just came up with
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  that. Focus on the process.
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  Don't fixate on the words because the process matters.
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  How we interact with each other is, is probably 2/3 of of the
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  way or the ability for us to prevent cycles if we can tune
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  into the way we interact with each other and not just strictly
• 15:19
  what we're saying to each other. So process over content, process
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  matters. And it's being mindful about the
• 15:28
  way we interact with each other. It's being mindful about how we
• 15:34
  say things, how things come out of our mouths, not just the
• 15:37
  words, but the tone or the facial expression.
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  Or, you know, I watch couples all the time that I'm working
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  with and one partner will say something and they're, they're
• 15:49
  just giving their experience of maybe what it's like to be in
• 15:52
  the relationship or what it's like for them in the cycle.
• 15:55
  And I can see all the time the other person having this
• 15:58
  emotional reaction on the in the other chair on the other side of
• 16:02
  the couch or whatever. And then, you know, they're
• 16:03
  crossing their legs and they're crossing their arms and, you
• 16:07
  know, and they're, they're clearly there's something their
• 16:09
  partner has said that is triggering them.
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  And I see this all the time. And so they need to be aware
• 16:16
  that, oh, there's a process here.
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  My partner is explaining their experience, which may be
• 16:20
  different than my experience, but in those moments they feel
• 16:23
  like they're partners expressing things about them that just run
• 16:27
  contrary to how they see what is going on in the relationship.
• 16:32
  And so they tend to have these emotional reactions and, and
• 16:36
  this can start to get dysregulated, right.
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  And even right there, that's a great early warning sign that,
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  OK, we could, we could be in a potential cycle right now.
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  We, I could see a cycle potentially going on right here
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  in front of me, even though there's not a lot of words that
• 16:52
  might be said. One partner starting to really
• 16:54
  get dysregulated. The other partner is starting to
• 16:57
  see their partner get dysregulated while they're
• 17:00
  talking about their experience of the relationship.
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  And if that goes on for a little bit longer, it might trigger the
• 17:06
  original partner who was originally talking.
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  And so you can see how these things can just sort of
• 17:11
  escalate. And when that happens, it breaks
• 17:14
  down communication skills. It breaks down our ability to
• 17:19
  really be able to communicate, to really be able to formulate
• 17:24
  what we want to say. And often times when we do
• 17:27
  communicate, it's more at the surface level.
• 17:30
  It's not, it's not layers down where we can talk about the
• 17:34
  deeper meanings that of what's going on for us in the
• 17:38
  relationship and be able to ask or clarify the things that we
• 17:43
  might need in the relationship. And so, you know, the, the
• 17:48
  second thing here is that the cycle is the problem, not the
• 17:52
  words. And we want to be able to focus
• 17:56
  on the process and not just the content.
• 18:01
  It's a little bit like I was at a fundraiser not too long ago
• 18:07
  and they were doing a, a trivia game.
• 18:10
  And in the in the part of the trivia game is they would play a
• 18:14
  song and they would cut it off and part of the the job of the
• 18:19
  table would then to fill in the the next line of the lyrics.
• 18:25
  And so one of the songs they were playing is, is Neil
• 18:29
  Diamond's sweet Caroline, right, which is a huge sing along.
• 18:33
  It's become kind of this incredible anthem for him in the
• 18:37
  last several. Well, maybe for a long time, but
• 18:39
  several decades. And and and people fill in words
• 18:43
  during the break. And I'm not going to sing it for
• 18:44
  you because I'm not a singer. But you, you probably have heard
• 18:47
  the song before. And so the whole room is singing
• 18:50
  the song, and all of a sudden it cuts off and you're supposed to
• 18:52
  fill out the rest of the line. And I think that's a good
• 18:56
  metaphor for what happens often. It's like we know that line
• 19:00
  because we've heard the song so much that it doesn't take
• 19:04
  anything for us to continue singing that line in our head.
• 19:10
  And so everybody's frantically writing it down, but some tables
• 19:13
  are still, you know, just singing right along to the song.
• 19:16
  And I think that's a little bit what happens sometimes when we
• 19:19
  get caught into cycles. It's like we don't know how to
• 19:22
  stop and the cycle plays out regardless of whether we're
• 19:27
  communicating well or not. And so we've got to be able to
• 19:31
  sort of stop. And as I've said, regulate
• 19:34
  before we communicate. That's a huge mantra that we, we
• 19:38
  talk about in our program. Regulate before communicate,
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  huge mantra. And so it's almost like we've
• 19:44
  got that whole second line built up in our in our body And we
• 19:48
  know it so well that when that starts to play out, when the
• 19:52
  song starts to go, no matter where it cuts off, we just
• 19:55
  continue right on because it's so ingrained in US.
• 19:59
  Jimmy Buffett, Margaritaville is another one of those songs they
• 20:02
  played right? And everybody kind of knows the
• 20:04
  lyrics to that song. It's a huge sing along.
• 20:07
  And when the song cuts off, when the cycle starts, it's almost
• 20:11
  like our body continues with the lyric no matter what, because
• 20:16
  it's just so ingrained in US. And that's why it's so difficult
• 20:21
  to, no matter how well we communicate.
• 20:23
  To be able to get through to our partner or have our partner here
• 20:27
  and understand us because the cycle has taken over and it's
• 20:31
  not really about communication skills anymore.
• 20:34
  It's now about the cycle. And, and the Third Point we want
• 20:38
  to make today is that communication skills don't
• 20:41
  always address the emotional needs underneath.
• 20:45
  And so a lot of times when couples are communicating, they
• 20:49
  might be communicating clearly, but one of the things I've seen
• 20:53
  is that we can communicate all day long about the surface
• 20:57
  things. Why didn't you text me back?
• 21:00
  You know, you know, it's the can you take care of the kids
• 21:03
  tonight? Or how do we shuffle schedules?
• 21:06
  We need to clean the, the house or whose turn is it to do the
• 21:09
  dishes or whatever. It might be that surface level
• 21:13
  stuff, but it doesn't necessarily get at the deeper
• 21:16
  needs. And again, if, if couples are
• 21:20
  caught in cycles, if you've got a repeatable, painful cycle that
• 21:25
  shows up in your relationship, it's going to be really hard to
• 21:29
  dig down and, and to the deeper needs that you have because
• 21:34
  you're caught on the surface stuff.
• 21:36
  So communication skills, even if both partners are good
• 21:39
  communicators, and I've seen some phenomenal communicators,
• 21:43
  but if there's still a cycle in the relationship, it's not going
• 21:47
  to be able to help them drill down to the deeper needs that
• 21:52
  they have. And so those deeper needs of
• 21:55
  feeling safe or reassurance or feeling valued in the
• 21:59
  relationship, those are the things that need to be
• 22:02
  expressed. But we have to be able to
• 22:06
  alleviate our cycles and interrupt them in real time and
• 22:11
  do that enough that it begins to feel safer for both partners to
• 22:16
  be able to express their deeper needs to one another, because
• 22:21
  then they don't have as much fear about falling right back
• 22:24
  into a cycle again. So communicate.
• 22:27
  Even good communication skills prevent couples from being able
• 22:32
  to drill down and ask for what they need.
• 22:35
  It prevents them from being able to drill down a couple of layers
• 22:38
  below the surface and say, you know, what I'm really needing
• 22:41
  is, is some reassurance. It feels like when you shut down
• 22:45
  sometimes that I'm 1000 miles away and I can't reach you.
• 22:49
  I just, I just want to know that you're here with me, that what
• 22:52
  I'm expressing to you matters. And, and the partner says, oh,
• 22:57
  absolutely, I'm sorry. I know sometimes when I get
• 23:00
  overwhelmed, I can shut down. It leaves you feeling alone.
• 23:03
  You matter so much to me. And I'm working on that.
• 23:06
  I'm trying to stay more emotionally engaged in our
• 23:09
  conversations because I don't want to shut down and I don't
• 23:12
  want to get overwhelmed. Maybe I could start saying
• 23:15
  something when I'm starting to feel overwhelmed just so that,
• 23:17
  you know, kind of what's happening.
• 23:19
  Oh, wow, that would be awesome. I would love that.
• 23:21
  And so, and if you, if you could do that, then what I'll do is
• 23:25
  I'll start maybe slowing down a little bit so, you know, I can
• 23:29
  maybe not overwhelm you as much. Oh, that would be awesome.
• 23:32
  So, you know, being able to get at those deeper needs is really
• 23:36
  important and, and being able to break those cycles again, notice
• 23:42
  that good communication skills cannot breakthrough bad cycles.
• 23:47
  They cannot breakthrough painful cycles.
• 23:50
  Regulate before you communicate. We've got to get regulated
• 23:54
  first, then we can communicate, then we can communicate our
• 23:58
  deeper needs to one another. You know, trying to, trying to
• 24:04
  communicate our our needs to one another while we're caught in
• 24:09
  the cycle is a little bit like, you know, raising the sails in a
• 24:13
  sailboat. But, and we've got good wind,
• 24:16
  but we're going in the wrong direction.
• 24:18
  We need to be going east and we're actually heading West.
• 24:21
  So, you know, we've got great wind in our sails.
• 24:24
  We're making really good time, but we're we're heading
• 24:27
  completely the wrong direction. And so it can often feel like,
• 24:31
  wow, we're communicating really well, but we're actually not
• 24:34
  getting any closer to what we need from each other because
• 24:37
  we're heading in the wrong directions.
• 24:38
  We've got to fix and repair those cycles first.
• 24:42
  We've got to be able to recognize them and interrupt
• 24:47
  them in real time. So here's three things that I
• 24:51
  want you to think about and work on in terms of trying to disrupt
• 24:58
  those cycles in real time in order to restore a good
• 25:02
  communication skills. And the first one obviously is
• 25:05
  regulate before you communicate. You've heard me say that I don't
• 25:08
  know maybe half a dozen times so far.
• 25:10
  That really is true. I can't emphasize it enough.
• 25:14
  If you guys are are caught in a cycle, you're not going to be
• 25:18
  able to communicate very well. Matter of fact, your
• 25:20
  communication might actually increase and escalate the cycle
• 25:24
  even more. So first, get regulated.
• 25:27
  You can use the 54321 technique, you can use breathing
• 25:30
  techniques. You can call a time out and step
• 25:32
  away. Whatever might work for you is
• 25:36
  is something you need to to work on in order to try to get
• 25:39
  regulated. Second, get good at at
• 25:43
  recognizing and interrupting the cycle in real time every single
• 25:48
  time. You want to be able to really
• 25:51
  interrupt it in real time. And so you've got to be able to
• 25:55
  recognize it. And that might mean you
• 25:57
  recognize the expressions or the early warning signs in your
• 26:02
  partner. You know, do you see their face
• 26:04
  kind of start to get red? Do you see their eyes narrow?
• 26:06
  Do you see it start to grimace? Do you hear them respond in a
• 26:10
  little bit of a defensive tone? Are they trying to explain
• 26:13
  things instead of truly listening and validating your
• 26:17
  feelings? These can all be early warning
• 26:20
  signs. And if that happens, you've got
• 26:22
  to say something to the effect of, hey, it looks like we might
• 26:26
  be starting a cycle here. You know how we can kind of do
• 26:30
  that sometimes and it really breaks down our ability to
• 26:32
  communicate. Let's just slow this down for a
• 26:34
  minute because in this moment, I'm not really feeling hurt.
• 26:38
  Not because I don't think you want to, but because maybe I've
• 26:40
  said something that might have triggered us or caused us to, to
• 26:44
  get defensive. I know how we can kind of do
• 26:47
  that thing sometimes. So I'm, I'm just going to slow
• 26:49
  down, if that's OK with you. And I'm going to kind of back up
• 26:52
  and see if I can't repeat a few things and, and maybe we can
• 26:56
  prevent this cycle. So that would be sort of trying
• 26:59
  to catch it and interrupted in real time.
• 27:02
  And the third thing is try to actually drill down and get to
• 27:07
  your deeper needs. And this is hard for a lot of
• 27:10
  people. And this is sometimes where
• 27:12
  trauma comes in because people that have had past trauma or
• 27:16
  past hurts or past wounds, however you want to say it,
• 27:19
  sometimes they don't feel like they have a right to ask for
• 27:22
  their needs. Sometimes they don't feel like
• 27:24
  they have a right to ask something of their partner or
• 27:29
  hold on to their needs long enough to be able to even ask
• 27:32
  for it. But the more able you are to be
• 27:35
  able to say I need some reassurance in this moment, or I
• 27:38
  need more closeness and connection, or I need more
• 27:41
  safety when I approach you with my feelings, or I need more
• 27:45
  validation that you've really heard and understood me.
• 27:48
  All those things are some deeper needs that need to eventually be
• 27:52
  expressed. Learning how to drill down and
• 27:55
  learning how to express those deeper needs is going to sort of
• 28:02
  cut through all the noise of the cycle and cut through all the
• 28:07
  noise of I statements and active listening skills.
• 28:11
  Not that those things are important, but being able to
• 28:13
  really draw on those needs and communicate that really is what
• 28:17
  your partner is going to be able to hear and understand much
• 28:21
  better. Hey, thanks for listening.
• 28:24
  If you want to learn more, I'll put down in in the liner notes
• 28:27
  below, but you can go down and you can download our Getting to
• 28:31
  the Root of the Problem ebook that I, this is something I put
• 28:36
  together for couples that really helps them learn how to go from
• 28:40
  surface to depth in their conversations.
• 28:43
  It really helps them learn how to drill down these five
• 28:48
  different layers so that they can get more to what it is they
• 28:52
  want and need more of those attachment needs in the
• 28:56
  relationship. And not just stay on the surface
• 28:59
  of of the communication. So that when we communicate,
• 29:04
  we're doing so in a more clear way that's reducing our cycles
• 29:08
  or stopping them all together and getting more to what we
• 29:11
  really need.