Latest / DEEP INSIGHT / Trump renamed Lake Ontario to 'provoke Canada,' historian says

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Trump renamed Lake Ontario to 'provoke Canada,' historian says · DEEP INSIGHT

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  Speaker 1: It appears that U.S. President Donald Trump's executive order to
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  Speaker 1: change the name of Lake Ontario He's not too popular
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  Speaker 1: with Americans. A new Reuters Ipsos poll has found that
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  Speaker 1: most American adults surveyed oppose renaming it Lake America. The
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  Speaker 1: poll was conducted online across the U.S. It found that
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  Speaker 1: 63 percent of respondents are against the name change. Just
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  Speaker 1: 14 percent support it. The rest either didn't answer or
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  Speaker 1: were unsure. The survey collected responses from 1,023 people. It
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  Speaker 1: has a margin of error of 4 percent. Apple has
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  Speaker 1: now changed the lake's name on the web version of
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  Speaker 1: Apple Maps. It's now labeled Lake America for users in
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  Speaker 1: the U.S. Google was first to make that change on
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  Speaker 1: the weekend. So who actually gets to decide what the
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  Speaker 1: lake's name is and how indicative is this of the
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  Speaker 1: current relationship between the two countries? Tim Naftali is a
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  Speaker 1: historian and senior research scholar at the School of International
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  Speaker 1: and Public Affairs at Columbia University. Tim, it's good to
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  Speaker 1: speak with you tonight.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, glad to be with you, Sarah.
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  Speaker 1: So what do you make of this issue? Is this,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, is this bigger than just someone taking a
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  Speaker 1: Sharpie and making a change on a piece of Bristol
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  Speaker 1: board here? It's the body of water. How significant do
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  Speaker 1: you think it is?
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  Speaker 2: Well, President Trump wanted to provoke Canadians. He also, I believe,
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  Speaker 2: wanted to stir up some nationalist passions in the United States.
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  Speaker 2: He's facing a very tough midterm test. And so out
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  Speaker 2: of pique, out of psychological need, he went after Lake Ontario.
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  Speaker 2: I think the president focuses on individuals. My sense is
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  Speaker 2: he doesn't like Prime Minister Carney and he doesn't like
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  Speaker 2: Premier Ford. And he decided he would try to find
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  Speaker 2: a way to stir the pot. And that's what he
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  Speaker 2: did by renaming the lake for the United States. Let's
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  Speaker 2: make clear what this means. Canada and the United States
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  Speaker 2: each have the right to name their respective jurisdictional waters.
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  Speaker 2: The United States cannot rename the Great Slave Lake. It
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  Speaker 2: can't rename Hudson's Bay. And Canada cannot rename Lake Michigan,
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  Speaker 2: which is wholly within the United States. The other Great
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  Speaker 2: Lakes are shared. And because the two countries have, until recently,
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  Speaker 2: had extremely good relations, in fact, model relations for neighbors,
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  Speaker 2: the Great Lakes, there was not an issue as to
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  Speaker 2: what we call the Great Lakes. Donald Trump has made
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  Speaker 2: it an issue.
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  Speaker 1: I just want to ask, can I just pick up
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  Speaker 1: on something that you've said there? Because if the two
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  Speaker 1: countries do have the right to name a body of water, then,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, should Canada be as perhaps offended as Canada is?
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  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, there's definitely that feeling.
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  Speaker 2: Sarah, the United States does not have the right to
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  Speaker 2: name the Canadian waters of Lake Ontario. So Canada, the
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  Speaker 2: United States cannot name... the portion of Lake Ontario that
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  Speaker 2: is on the Canadian side of the border that runs
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  Speaker 2: through the lake. The United States does not have that power.
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  Speaker 2: And that's why Google and apparently Apple have made a
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  Speaker 2: mistake in the way in which they've approached this issue.
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  Speaker 2: When I look at my Google map in the United States,
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  Speaker 2: at the moment I should be seeing Lake America below
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  Speaker 2: the boundary and Lake Ontario above it, because the United
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  Speaker 2: States hasn't the right to rename Canadian waters. So that's
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  Speaker 2: my point. The lake is shared and each country has
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  Speaker 2: the right to name its half of the lake, but
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  Speaker 2: not the entire lake.
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  Speaker 1: I guess what I'm... sort of getting at is there
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  Speaker 1: are other examples elsewhere in the world where, you know,
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  Speaker 1: one country calls a body of water one thing and
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  Speaker 1: the other refers to it as something else. And I
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  Speaker 1: suppose that could certainly cause some confusion in terms of
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  Speaker 1: maybe navigation and maybe even map making. But there are
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  Speaker 1: other examples out there, are there not?
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  Speaker 2: They are not helpful because there is an international organization
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  Speaker 2: called the IHO, which is located in Monaco. and which governs,
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  Speaker 2: it is an international non-political organization that helps standardize nautical
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  Speaker 2: maps throughout the world. And it has a convention for
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  Speaker 2: dealing with this. It puts both names together. But it
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  Speaker 2: only governs international waterways. It does not govern internal waters,
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  Speaker 2: and the Great Lakes are an internal water So there
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  Speaker 2: isn't an international approach to this. You can't look at
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  Speaker 2: the English Channel La Manche issue and say, well, there's
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  Speaker 2: an example. No, no, no. That's an example for an
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  Speaker 2: international waterway. There isn't an example of an internal lake
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  Speaker 2: that has had this kind of controversy. And so Canada
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  Speaker 2: and the United States need to find a way to
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  Speaker 2: deal with this. But one way it can't be is
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  Speaker 2: that the United States determines the names of the waters
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  Speaker 2: that lap against the, you know, Toronto.
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  Speaker 1: The shores of Toronto.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. Well, then.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, so you maybe have more insight than most
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  Speaker 1: on an issue like this. How do you think this ends?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, as you point out, Google Maps, Apple Maps
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  Speaker 1: is now falling in line here. One side's calling it
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  Speaker 1: like America, one side's definitely calling it like Ontario.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look, I'm not a mediator in this instance,
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  Speaker 2: but I think there are two ways to look at this.
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  Speaker 2: One is that right now, the American waters have been renamed.
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  Speaker 2: And there's nothing Canada can do about that because those
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  Speaker 2: aren't Canadian waters. It's sad because it's a sign of
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  Speaker 2: the deterioration of relations between the White House and Canada.
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  Speaker 2: Let's make this clear. Americans are not engaged in a
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  Speaker 2: trade war with Canadians, but the White House is. That's different.
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  Speaker 2: As anybody watching the United States knows, The United States
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  Speaker 2: is going through a very difficult political period with a
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  Speaker 2: president who has tried to do his best to shut
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  Speaker 2: down the other two branches of government and rule unilaterally.
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  Speaker 2: So this is a very difficult political moment. So I
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  Speaker 2: hope Canadians keep in mind that, sure, the president has supporters,
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  Speaker 2: but most Americans do not support the political aggressions that
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  Speaker 2: the White House seeks to put in Canada's direction. So
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  Speaker 2: first of all, the Canadians know that there are elections
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  Speaker 2: in the United States and in 2028, there will be
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  Speaker 2: a new president and that new president can revoke this
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  Speaker 2: executive order. Secondly, there may be a change in both
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  Speaker 2: houses of Congress and they may pass a bill that
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  Speaker 2: renames it because the president is not the last word
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  Speaker 2: in renaming things in the United States. Congress is actually
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  Speaker 2: what the president's role in this is a statutory role
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  Speaker 2: that comes from Congress. It's not constitutional. So Congress can
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  Speaker 2: change this also. And finally, for the moment, no maps
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  Speaker 2: should show the waters lapping against the shores of Toronto
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  Speaker 2: as being Lake America, because they aren't. The United States
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  Speaker 2: has lots of power, but one power it doesn't have
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  Speaker 2: is to change Canadian names. And Lake Ontario, from the
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  Speaker 2: border up to Toronto, is Lake Ontario still.
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  Speaker 1: Tim Naftali, Presidential Historian, Senior Research Scholar at the School
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  Speaker 1: of International and Public Affairs at Columbia University. Tim, thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Sarah. My pleasure. Music