Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #47 How Harmful is Loneliness and Isolation for Kids’ Mental Health? You'll Be Shocked to Discover

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#47 How Harmful is Loneliness and Isolation for Kids’ Mental Health? You'll Be Shocked to Discover · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

0:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to kill myself anymore.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: I believe that I am capable of living independently.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: Which is something that I did not believe when I was in the throne and then rehably living through that.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like the world is crashing around me.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: I barely remember anymore.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Just how bad that feeling was.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: It's very painful to get through.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: But over time, it does eventually get easier.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Life does get better.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: And you reach a place where you don't think about it anymore.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: You don't think about it as the thing affecting you.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: What you think about it as the thing that affected you.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: That's where I'm at now.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: And that is where anyone else who's going through it can and will eventually reach if they put in that work.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Launch.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Elaine Uskoski.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: If that name sounds familiar, it's because she was on the podcast back in episode 24, where she shared her heartbreaking story with a very happy ending about how she rescued her son Jake from the throes of a video gaming addiction that nearly took his life.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: In fact, the voice you just heard was Jake.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: He was sharing what I think was one of the most honest and beautifully spoken responses to a deeply personal question.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: This time, Elaine's back to talk about something equally important: the detrimental effects of isolation on young adults.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Recently, she wrote a blog post called How Isolation Can Breed Gaming Addiction.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to dive into that today.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Elaine is the author of several books, most notably Cyber Sober, a Caregiver's Guide to Video Gaming Addiction.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: You'll find links to her work and contact information in the show notes.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: This is such an important conversation.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: So as you're listening, think about who in your life might need to hear it.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: Let's get started.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Elaine.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, hello.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to lunch.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me again.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to have you back.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: The last time you joined me, we were talking about video gaming addiction, uh, specifically how you manage it once you realize that Jake was away at school and was struggling.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then what you did since that time in terms of becoming an author, a speaker, a coach.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Um but for anyone and anyone who's listening to this, if they want to go back and listen to that episode, which was amazing, it's episode number 24.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: I understand that you're working on a third book.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: So can you give us a little hint about what that is, what we can expect?
3:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the third book is the link between neurodiversity and video gaming addiction.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because that seems to be showing up hugely with uh almost all of my clients.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I'd say 98% of my uh gaming addicted clients have also ADHD, at the very least.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think there's just not enough information for parents to understand how that plays into the addiction, but also how we parent uh a neurodiverse child and um and how that can help maybe prevent uh addictions from happening when they feel they're being seen and understood.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, that's that's coming up next.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: It's still a work in progress.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there's no expected date when you think it'll be no no.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a great topic, and I think it's gonna do really, really well.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: The fact that you're making these connections is huge.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: But today we're taking a deeper dive into addiction, but through the lens of isolation.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, because we both know that loneliness plays a huge role in fueling addiction.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, in fact, I I feel so strongly personally about parents not letting their kids, their adult kids, stay in their rooms, that I did an episode on it and talked about this famous rat park, um, which is episode 22, if anyone's interested.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And recently you wrote a blog post about it as well, which I'm gonna obviously we're gonna talk about it, and I'll put it in the show notes.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but so for our listener who's unfamiliar with the study, because we can't assume that everybody knows this study, um I'm gonna explain it quickly so parents can understand how dangerous isolation is for our kids.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: And not just for those who are gaming, but for every adult child who is spending hours upon hours in their bedrooms, whether they're scrolling on social media, watching Netflix, or on YouTube, this is for every kid that's in that bedroom.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: So here's the study.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Back in the late 70s, I know you know this, this is for our listener.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Back in the late 70s, Canadian psychologist, love that, Dr.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Bruce Alexander noticed that all the classic addiction experiments were being done with rats who were kept alone in small cages with nothing else to do and no other rats to play with.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: So, to no one's surprise, uh these rats became addicted to the morphine-laced water.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so he decided to try something different.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: He built Rat Park, which was a big social space with all kinds of turning wheels and activities and, you know, obviously clean water as well as this as well as the morphine-laced water.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: And of course, he included other rats.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, in that environment, the rats hardly touched the drug water, and even the rats that he had put in that were addicted stopped drinking the drug-laced water.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: And that had, I mean, that's literally, it was the same drug, it was the same brain, but when he added social connection and stimulation, their addiction pretty much disappeared.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Which is why Dr.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: Alexander believes that addiction isn't just about personal weakness or brain chemistry, but about the environment.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: And we'll get into more of that.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and since then, there have been a lot more studies suggesting that the cause of addiction may be more about socially disconnection, being about, sorry, maybe more about being socially disconnected than the substance or abuse itself.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: So, Elaine, when you are coaching young adults who are addicted to video gaming, do you tell them about findings like this?
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm so curious what these young adults would say about a rat park study, for example.
7:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, in my case, I work with parent coaching.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: So I am sharing the experiment with parents so that they have a better understanding.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: Um at this point, I haven't really started to introduce that to the gamers.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: Um the problem I have with introducing it to gamers is that they believe because they have video games and because they have online friends, they have all the stimulation and community they need in their rooms.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: And so it's really difficult to convince them that they are um missing out, not living in a rat park.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're not, because we do know we need in-person and a community and we need outside stimulation, that we can't just live in isolation in a room with online friends and video games.
8:35
SPEAKER_02: That's that's not a life.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, but these guys, and I say guys because it's mostly males that I work with that uh are addicted to games, believe that that's all they need.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: They don't want outside friends, uh, and they don't want education or jobs or uh sports or the arts or any other uh activity that they could find outside of their rooms.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: They're very stuck in that space.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: So I try to approach it from the parent perspective so I can get parents to understand the dilemma.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: And then I will give parents strategies and how to approach their gamer uh to introduce, you know, why outside um community and other activities is as important to them and their mental health.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: So they're in the middle, they're in the thick of it, so they can't really see through the forest to see that there is a light, a better life for themselves.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: But Jake, if we can touch on Jake for a second, he's he's out of the woods, so to speak.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: You spoken to him about the Rat Park study?
9:42
SPEAKER_02: I did.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, I just interviewed him yesterday about it for one of the chapters in my book.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I had lots of questions for him.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, he agreed that video games was the morphine drug for him, so to speak.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: And uh, and you know, having gone through the addiction and been as isolated as he was for such a long period of time, you know, he admits that part of the isolation was so that he didn't have to face the internal pain that he was going through.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: And so the isolation, the online friends gave him a sort of a coping mechanism.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: But now that he's, you know, not gamed for eight years and has a very full life and and does everything in person, well, almost everything.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, of course, he spends some time online, not gaming.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, but he now says, you know, without his in-person friends, he wouldn't be the person that he is today.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: And that he, you know, truly sees that community outside of the online world is immensely important.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: And one of the things we talked about was, you know, when he was younger and I learned that he was online with friends, I would say to him, they're they're not your real friends.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: And he would get so upset with me.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: They're they are my real friends, mom.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: He really believed they were.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: And now he says he can admit that he was wrong about that because when he decided to no longer game, those friends all disappeared.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: They were not interested in his well-being.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: They just wanted to know when he was coming back to play video games.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: They weren't asking how he was doing.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: And he says, in retrospect, they weren't really talking like friends talk anyway.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: Most of the conversation that was happening while gaming was related to the game itself.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: And he said he wasn't really sharing and being honest about his situation either.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and one of the reasons that he avoided being in person with people is because he felt they would see, they would physically see he was struggling and then he'd have to be vulnerable.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: And he didn't want to, he didn't want to go there.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, there was a study done in 2019.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be making references to a few studies, um, by the American Psychological Association that found that heavy gamers often feel that's social that they are socially connected while they're gaming, to your point, but once they're offline, they report high levels of loneliness, poor sleep, and almost no real-world support.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: So if heavy gamers feel so connected online, but lonely and unsupported offline, how can they believe that all of their needs are being met?
12:35
SPEAKER_01: And what about intimacy?
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, one of the things that were interesting that Jake said yesterday was that if he were to admit that he was lonely and that he was miserable, then that would mean all the years that he dedicated to gaming would be a waste.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: He wasn't ready to admit that.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: That he it was so important to him and it brought him such temporary joy.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: And we know it was temporary because, as you say, when they stop gaming, right, then they they're really feeling their pain.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: But it gave him such joy and it allowed him to uh avoid working on the internal problems that he was having, that he did not want to see that as a waste.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: He saw it as food.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: Whenever I talked about detox and gaming, he said it felt like I was removing food from him because he felt like he needed it to survive at times.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: And I work with a lot of young men who have no interest in intimacy at all.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: Which is so surprising.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, upwards to guys in their 30s, not just young teens.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, some are having online um relationships.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: I think there was a study I read quite some time ago, a statistic that 50% of young people today will have their first sexual encounter online.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh dear lord.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: So that's sadly becoming a norm.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about this, that dopamine hit.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Is it the dopamine hit that's keeping them in denial?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: And and that's I know that's dangerous too, because you can't just take away the the whole, you know, the gaming because of the dopamine, but and they'll go through withdrawal.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: So talk, let's talk about the fact that they actually are getting a drug going like racing through their body that's keeping them gaming.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, and for a lot of my uh guys who have ADHD, they're not taking medication.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Some haven't even been diagnosed or in the process of getting an assessment done.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: And so they're low dopamine to begin with.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: So there's no greater source of dopamine.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Jake says today that no matter what he does and how active his life is, nothing he does today gives him the same dopamine hit that gaming did.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely nothing.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: He said he's just had to learn to live with a lower level of dopamine.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's fine.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: He's very happy with that.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, but if you're low dopamine, you're gonna go searching for it.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: But also the gaming isn't just giving them dopamine, it's giving them a feedback loop that's positive.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: It's giving them instant reward, it's allowing their brain to operate at 100%, which is where they're happiest.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: It's under pressure.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: So all the things that somebody with ADHD craves is right there in the games.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: It's highly, highly stimulating.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: But once they start that level of dopamine, you know, the big myth around gaming addiction is, well, just take it away, turn off the internet.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, except what will happen because their brain is so used to that level of dopamine that for the first five days, the natural dopamine that their brain produces will completely stop.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: It will come to a halt for five days.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: That's the withdrawal symptoms.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: That's when they feel the most miserable.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: And so if you don't know how to help them through that withdrawal, you can't just turn it off.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh, some kids become violent, some kids become despondent, suicidal.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's miserable.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: It was a miserable time for Jake.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: I had to watch him 24-7 uh when he was going through his initial detox.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: They also go through um that grieving period of, you know, I don't have this thing that meant so much to me, and also I don't have my online friends.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: Now I'm completely cut off from the world.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: Now I'm completely isolated.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that's a dangerous place to go and a dangerous way of thinking.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we had to be very, very careful about how we um introduce any kind of change to the dopamine levels of the brain.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: So for any parent listening, this is not something you suggest that they do on their own at home, without in without someone like yourself kind of coaching them along the way.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I did it on my own, but you know, that was 2014 when it wasn't really on anyone's radar.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh, there wasn't a lot of help.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, I, you know, I went on instinct and got lucky.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: You know, I just got lucky.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: I watched him very closely.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: I provided a lot of empathy and support, kept him busy.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was hard.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: And he didn't become violent with me.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: In situations where we've got volatility, especially kids who are ADHD who are not usually emotionally regulated, that can heighten through gaming.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: That we know that the symptoms of ADHD can become worse in gaming addiction.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: So, no, I wouldn't recommend anyone does that on their own.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: So if if if cutting them off is not the answer, um, how do you start addressing what's really missing in their lives?
17:52
SPEAKER_01: The the connection, the stimulation, the purpose.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you work through that, knowing that you can't just cut them off?
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, I look for the problem because as Gabor Mate says, addiction is the solution to a problem.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: That is the other reason you can't take it away.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: You take it away, the problem's still there.
18:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh, that was their coping mechanism.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Now we need a new coping mechanism.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: So I look for whatever the core issue is that's driving the addictive gaming and start rewinding and working towards um healing, recovering.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of times it's self-esteem issues, a lot of times it's awkwardness in in-person social situations.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of toxicity sometimes in the family home.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there was a trauma.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they've got also, you know, anxiety or depression, other mental illnesses they're dealing with.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: So I'm looking at what's driving them to game.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: What are they hungering for in life that they think that gaming is giving them?
18:53
SPEAKER_02: And then and then start working on those issues.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I will talk to my gamers about the positives of in-person networking versus what you're going to get online.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, if you're out, if I can get them working or back to school, those are environments that instantly create opportunities.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: And so if you're in a job and maybe it's not the job you want, you know, I'm like, do any job.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't care.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Just get out there and get working.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: Because once you're in the job, somebody may see a skill that you have that you didn't really recognize that stood out.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: And then you'll hear things like, Hey, Jake, I've noticed you're really good at blank.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: And I have a brother-in-law that's just started a business and could use somebody like you.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: Let me make that introduction.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: And that opens doors and opportunities.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: And for every person that you meet, they also have their own network.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: So you're tapping into a lot of people and a lot of opportunity.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: Or I'm ready to date, and so you make that statement to people, and then someone's bound to say, I have a friend that I think would be a great fit for you.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: I'll make that introduction.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't happen online.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: If you're unwell and you're in the hospital, your online friends are not there by your side holding your hand while you recover from illness.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: And that's what Jake discovered.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: They're just, they, they weren't there for those reasons.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: When Jake said, I'm leaving gaming because it's affecting my mental health in a negative way, they didn't care.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: They just kept saying, 'When are you coming back to game?' Yet his online, his in-person friends said, What can we do to help?
20:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, I won't game around you, if that will help.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: What kinds of activities do you need to do?
20:48
SPEAKER_02: Let's get together.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, do you need to talk?
20:51
SPEAKER_02: How can I support you through this?
20:53
SPEAKER_02: It was a very, very different scenario in person than it was online.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you something.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: When does this uh intense gaming start?
21:03
SPEAKER_01: Like what age does it start?
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Because I was just thinking about something you said, and I want to ask you a question about it.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: But first, I before I say anything, I want to ask, what is the starting age where you start where they start getting doubt like into this vortex of constant gaming?
21:18
SPEAKER_02: Well, the average age of a video gamer that's addicted is a male between 18 and 25.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: So a large number of my clients are young men who have failed at the first year of college or university, or have had two or three attempts at university and just found themselves locked in their dorm rooms gaming and not attending classes, not doing the schoolwork.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: But for Jake, he uh started to play online multiplayer games when he was in middle school.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: So that would be, you know, 11, 12, 13, uh, because he was bullied at school.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: And so he went online and discovered.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: That there were kids just like him, gamers.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, back when he was in middle school, gaming wasn't as popular as it is now.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: So he was considered a geek, a nerd, you know, he was different.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: And then he got online and went, Oh, there's other geeks and nerds out there.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: But also, there's also kids with a whole lot of emotional issues online as well.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: And so he started to gravitate towards it because he found community.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it really wasn't until high school hit that actually, that's let me back up.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't until university hit that the heavy gaming started because school was just too stressful for him and he wasn't making friends, and he actually didn't think he could manage the program.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: He didn't feel very smart.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, he had come from a gifted program with a small group of kids.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: So he was a big fish in a small pond, and then suddenly he saw there was a lot of kids smart, smarter than him.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: And that really tanked his academic confidence in himself.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: That's when he drove into the gaming uh in a heavier way.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: We didn't know that at the time because that was first year, and he came home and said it was a great year, and he passed everything.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but in second year, when he accidentally uh deregistered himself by making a late payment and panicked, that's when the gaming really got out of hand.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: And so I think it takes time to build.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's something that happens overnight.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: But certainly if a child is struggling with an issue that they don't feel they are getting the help or support with, or don't feel like they have anybody to ask for help and support, they'll slowly start to drive themselves into more and more gaming if the problem doesn't get resolved.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: So the reason why I asked is because I think that school, whether it's high school or first year, university, college, it's very traumatizing.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: It's very traumatizing.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: So when these young adults in their 20s you're trying to work with them and try to show that there's a life outside of their bedrooms and their gaming, they don't know about that life because they only have school to fall back on and the bullying or the trauma or the feeling really shitty about yourself at school, that's what they're gonna think back, that that's they think that's what life is.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: But the truth is that when they get out and they get a job, there is a whole other, it's a different world than now when you're starting to work.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's something that young adults don't realize.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: That actually you school is not life.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And that whatever happened at school is not gonna happen in real life for you, because now you're it's just a different environment.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: And like Jake, when he got a taste of what it was like to actually go to work and meet a diverse group of people or like-minded in the field that he was studying, that it was a that it was a different experience.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of trauma that goes on in high school and and first year.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: That's what keeps them afraid of trying the world again from a different, you know, perspective of working.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, I would agree with that, and I'd also add to that that I think there's just far too much rescuing from parents.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: And we are not preparing our kids to live independently and go away to school.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh, the problem-solving process is not being laid out for them.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: They're being told how to fix their problems.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, they speak to their parents.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: This comes up a lot with my clients, where they want to talk to their parents about an issue and they're either shot down with dismissiveness or judgment or don't be ridiculous, don't feel you shouldn't feel that way.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: Or they start asking a whole lot of questions because the parents trying to formulate the answer in their head without actually helping the child work through the problem solving themselves and letting them make the best decision.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and even if it's the child chooses not the best decision, they're gonna learn from that as well, right?
26:09
SPEAKER_02: That okay, that didn't work.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: Let's back to the drawing board.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: What do you think you could do next?
26:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, let's talk about this.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: And so uh in Jean Twang's work, who's a researcher of generations, she believes that this generation is maturing up to three years behind because there's so much insular protection in the home.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, and a lot of that was caused by you know 9-11 in Columbine, where we started to see the world outside of our homes as dangerous.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: And so we became more protective.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: We started driving our kids to school instead of walking.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: And there was no more free-range, you know, childhood and tracking on phones and um, you know, staying at home more.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: And so all of that is contributing to our kids maturing much later.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: And so we're sending kids off to university, some 17 and 18 years old, with the maturity of a 14 and 15-year-old.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: And that's just a disaster waiting to happen.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: We have to take a step back and start letting our kids have more agency in their decisions, and those that need to start in the early teen years, not you know, when they've gone off to university.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: I could not agree with you more.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: I remember um when my son was gaming and he was younger, he was in the earlier high school years.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I knew that it was too much time online, but I kept saying to myself, Well, at least he's safe.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Right?
27:47
SPEAKER_01: We make excuses, but that safety is one of them.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: At least I know he's home.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: I have a friend that's son was out and about, not in front of the screen, but like she didn't know where he was, and she would panic.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: So I that was one of the justifications for it.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: It's okay, let him let him stay home and be in front of the screen.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: He's safe.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was uh submitting to my editor with my second book.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: I think it was my second book, might have been my first.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, at least he's not doing drugs and he's not committing crimes and he's not drinking.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: And she wrote in the side edits and sent it back to me, said, This is the justification that abused women use to stay in abusive marriages.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, at least he's a good dad, at least he has a job.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: And that really hit me.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: I thought, of course.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: Addiction is addiction.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: I can't justify this addiction because he's not doing worse things.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: Um There's this British author, his name is Johan Harry, and he's written several best-selling books on addiction and depression.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: In fact, his book, Chasing the Scream, he writes the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: According to Harry, addiction happens because someone feels isolated, lonely, or disconnected from meaningful relationships.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: The real solution isn't necessarily to stop the addictive behavior, but to build these healthier connections with people.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: So that is your ultimate goal with your with the young adults that you're working with and their parents is to create these meaningful, to show them that there's a world out there where they can have those meaningful connections.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: And I I rarely ever look at full detox initially with a client.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: Because it's so dangerous.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and because we don't really, we haven't dug into what the problem is.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, even though parents are at the point where they want to throw it out the window and they want to unplug it.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: That's not my first step.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: What I want is to help the gamer build a life outside of the gaming that becomes much more meaningful, and then the game becomes sort of a backseat thing because it is a behavioral addiction.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: You do not have to have full sobriety.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: Jake chooses sobriety because that's what works best for him.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: He tried harm reduction, it didn't work.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, you can learn to have a healthy relationship with gaming or screens uh while still having a life around that or outside of that.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: So that's usually my goal is to get them to, you know, get exercising.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the first things.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Get a win.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm looking for small wins, you know, go to the gym, and I tell them it's not gonna feel great for the first couple of weeks.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna feel crummy, you're gonna hurt, feel the burn.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not gonna feel natural, but give it a couple of weeks, and then your body will start craving it and your mood will elevate as a result of it.
30:51
SPEAKER_02: And maybe you don't have to start with a gym, maybe you just start with 15-minute walks every day.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Just get yourself moving.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: I just want little wins where they start to see some progress.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: And then let's start job searching so that we can get them an interview because that's a win.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh, somebody actually wants to talk to me and interview me.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: And then we get through the interview and and they've been hired.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's another win.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, somebody actually thinks I'm worthy of this job.
31:17
SPEAKER_02: And then they start the job, the paycheck, also, you know, that's another win.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm getting paid for this, and then you're getting feedback about your work, so it's another win.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: So just all incremental little wins along the way, because those are dopamine hits on their own.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, and they are all confidence builders as well.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Um I just read this recently and it shocked me.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: In 2023, two years ago, the US Surgeon General put out an advisory declaring that loneliness and social disconnection were a public health crisis.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: The data is so striking, it shows that loneliness is linked to higher risks of depression, anxiety, addiction, dementia, and even premature death.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: So, in the context of gaming and screen time, if loneliness is that dangerous, it makes sense why young people are retreating into that world for relief.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: But then it becomes this vicious cycle.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: So, how do you help the adult child?
32:29
SPEAKER_01: So you've actually started mentioning these things.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Look, we're looking at how to break that vicious cycle of loneliness.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's, and I love the fact that you're saying it's not a complete, you know, halt.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: It's baby steps, slowly baby steps out the door and into the world, and realizing that work is nothing like school, and that there are all these wonderful motivational dopamine hits that come from working and getting hired and getting paid.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: So, but that's the cycle.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: It almost feeds into itself because if they don't do it, the loneliness, it's just, but I but I was shocked when I read that the advisory declaring that loneliness and social disconnect uh disconnection is a public health crisis.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's why for me, Elaine, I feel so passionate about getting kids out of their room.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: I I just I feel like there's nothing is nothing good is gonna come from it.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: So we have to stop being so afraid of the world.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: We have to trust our young adults that they're going to be okay.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: And we cannot perpetuate this because the loneliness that's happening in that bedroom is way worse for them than facing rejection of not getting a job or some, you know, dating somebody that doesn't want to date you anymore.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: So I I have another study in 2020, a study in addictive behaviors showed that when gaming replaces face-to-face interaction, that the loneliness and depression increase.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: And I know I'm bringing up these studies a lot because, like we spot we spoke about earlier, the rat park wasn't the only one.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: It was just the beginning.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: But gaming really isn't the root problem.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: No.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: So I don't want, I don't, I like I think you're right on to say to parents, don't just pull the plug, so to speak, on the gaming.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Because, like you said, this is a coping mechanism.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: There's something deeper going on.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that these parents don't even want to recognize that there is a deeper problem, which means that your job is, I mean, it's a it's a lot more than just saying, let's get them not gaming anymore.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: You they're they're doing this because they're they're really avoiding some deeper, darker paint.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: But in your blog post, How isolation can breed gaming addiction, I really appreciate the suggestions um that you give parents, how they can overcome this habit without dealing with the confrontation, the defiance, the denial, which is not easy.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: And and since I love offering actionable steps, I'd like to talk about, and you've mentioned them, but I'd like to talk about what some of the things that you've offered in your blog post, although it will be in the show notes.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: But can you start, you've listed five.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, can you start to share some of those suggestions?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Because I think they're actually amazing.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've got them in front of me because there's, you know, titles and then subs under the titles.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, just exploring with curiosity with your child, first of all.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: And back to the you can't just turn off the internet or take it away.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you start talking to them about gaming in a negative way, you will completely lose them immediately because this is a part of their culture and it's really important to them.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot they get out of gaming out if they're not addicted, you know, you're a recreational gamer, there's lots of things that you can gain from gaming.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: It's it's a wonderful recreational thing that per that you know you bring skills to and that can translate to other areas of your life.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so just exploring with curiosity for me is really important.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: I often say to parents, ask them about their games.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Ask them about the avatar they've created.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: You can learn a lot about who your person your child wants to be, not necessarily who they are in a game.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, ask them uh, you know, what's the most valuable thing that they get from gaming.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: I often, when I'm speaking to gamers, will ask them what skills do you bring?
36:43
SPEAKER_02: And then where can you translate those skills to other parts?
36:46
SPEAKER_02: Because I want them to feel positive about the skills that they take into gaming.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to strip it down and say there's nothing good about it.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: Um that's just gonna, you're gonna lose them for sure when you do that.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, and ask them, you know, what is what is what would your life look like if you didn't game for a week?
37:04
SPEAKER_02: What would that look like?
37:05
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna learn how frightened they are about the outside world with that question, right?
37:10
SPEAKER_02: That they're gonna tell you that would feel miserable.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, Jake and I just talked about this yesterday because COVID was so difficult.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: We saw a lot of isolation in COVID.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: And he said immediately for the first couple of weeks, isolation was kind of neat and he could focus on some at-home projects and some things that he hadn't been doing because he was already detoxed at that point.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: And then by week three, a little voice in his brain was saying, play again, come on, it's been a while, you'll be fine.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: And he recognized immediately that was a dangerous place.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: And he knew the problem was that he needed community.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: And so for the first two months, he came home and lived with my husband and I, and we created our own bubble, and then he created a bubble with uh a friend of his and his um wife that were in a house together, and so he spent some time with them.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: And then eventually he moved to the neighborhood his brother lives in because he then his brother has an autoimmune disorder, so he had to have a bubble as well, and he couldn't travel on transit when right.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: So he knew immediately, I need community, and I'm gonna have to create community.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: And so, what's that look like for your child if they don't have games?
38:21
SPEAKER_02: How would they create community?
38:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, the second one is to well, it's sort of the same thing, validate their current world um before the limits of it.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh talk to them about the importance of being in person, right?
38:38
SPEAKER_02: Oxytocin is produced by the brain when you're in in person.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't happen when you're online, and that helps to teach you about um trust and bonding and why that's important.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, and body language and what it feels like to be in the presence, you know, the energy that you get from being with other people, those are important things to talk to your kids about that do not exist online.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: And we don't want to say that in a, you know, don't do this, do this, but both are important.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we know your online friends.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, everybody has online friends today, anyway.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: That's normal.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, even I have online friends, I don't play video games with them.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's important to have both.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: How can we introduce both instead of one or the other?
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: So that's super important.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then, like I said before, create those small wins.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: Those are super important.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then find other activities that you can be doing that are still kind of relatable to video gaming.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: I often uh encourage uh Dungeons and Dragons or any role-playing games or strategy games, board games that are strategy-based, escape rooms.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: A lot of my young people are into modeling Lego, Warhammer, those sorts of things.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: So it's still, you know, what we would consider geeky activities, but that's okay.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, comic books, um, and then creating like scavenger hunts or going out on hikes and um having a list of things you need to find and take pictures of.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: So you still have your digital device with you, but you're using it for photographs instead of instead of um gaming.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, get your kids to cook with you.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Because when you're doing an activity with your child, they'll talk more through an activity than if you're just sitting face to face.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: So, and then that's teaches them a skill as well.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then get their input on the cooking, right?
40:40
SPEAKER_02: Because they're on YouTube, they see these videos, right?
40:43
SPEAKER_02: What do you want to make?
40:44
SPEAKER_02: And how do you think we should make it?
40:45
SPEAKER_02: Should we look for a YouTube video to make it with and follow?
40:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that is another um area that we want to look at.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: And then what we talked about before, we can talk to them about the rat park experiment and see how they can see the difference between being isolated in their room versus being out with people and how would that feel?
41:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then how do we create a richer um rat park environment for them, right?
41:14
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't include being in their room.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, before we wrap up, I want to talk about modeling.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm a firm believer that kids um pay more attention to what we do than what we say or what we tell them, which just means that parents really need to be role models for their kids, even even when they're adults.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: Do you see this in your coaching?
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Do you do you do parents with active lives, uh, you know, whether it's they're playing sports, golf, tennis, working out, being social, uh, having friends over for dinner or game night, does the lifestyle of these more active parents, does it have any influence whatsoever on these kids?
41:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, often in in the family situations that I'm looking at, there are parents that are not having full lives, that don't go out, that are staying home and watching television or they're on their own screens.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: And so I do bring that up and say, you know, are you also modeling that friendships are important in your life once you become an adult?
42:22
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, what kinds of things do you need to be doing to show your child that this is important?
42:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, or I have the opposite where the parents are very um uh athletic and involved in a lot of things, and then that sets the bar too high for the child.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Can't win.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so finding a balance is difficult.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but also there's a lot of kids that don't want to be involved in sports, that sports don't interest them.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh, team sports, not your thing.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm fine with that.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, Jake was never really a team sport guy, his brother was, but he would do archery and he would do snowboarding and he would play singles and tennis, right?
43:04
SPEAKER_02: So those were solo kind of things where he was challenging himself, and that was okay.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, he's found rock climbing now as his activity.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: And he loved when he was in university in the last year, he joined Muay Thai, which is a martial art.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: And so I say to my guys, find something that's active.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't necessarily have to be a sport.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: If you like hiking, if you want to go cycling, or you want to go on a skateboard, I don't care.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: Do anything to get your body actively moving.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: But also, if that doesn't interest you either, um, let's look at the arts, right?
43:43
SPEAKER_02: If and if if I have somebody that it really enjoyed drama when they were a youngster in school, go find a local theater.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: And maybe you're not going to be acting, you're gonna start maybe as a stage hand, but just to get back into that environment of like minded people to see if that's an area that.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: You want to start working in.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: Make your own music, right?
44:05
SPEAKER_02: DJing.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: There's all kinds of activities that they can be doing.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: Learn an instrument.
44:10
SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't necessarily have to be all about sports.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: It can be whatever you're interested in.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: Art classes, arts and crafts, whatever it is that floats your boat.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: I say go do it.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: Go find something.
44:24
SPEAKER_02: And it might take you trying a few different things before you land on the thing that you go, oh yeah, this is this is what I can do still.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Or new.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't have to be something you did before.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, a lot of parents will say that they can't force their kid to do these things, but is if how do you do that?
44:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, is it is it because you're the therapist and you're kind of expecting that, you know, the next time you speak to them, they will have made a couple of changes or made some efforts.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it?
44:54
SPEAKER_01: What is it that you're doing differently that you're getting them to try these things that the parents are saying, I've tried everything and nothing works?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Because we're gonna hear that.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna hear people, parents going, that doesn't work.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: I've said it, I've suggested nothing works, they don't want to stop.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: But you're suggesting it.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: Is that the difference when it's coming from a third party?
45:12
SPEAKER_01: They're more willing to do the things that you're suggesting.
45:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, parents are outdated people too, a youngster.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: What do they know?
45:22
SPEAKER_02: Right?
45:24
SPEAKER_02: Why would I listen to them?
45:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: They don't understand my world.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: Somebody objective, yes, they'll often listen to.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't generally make suggestions.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: I give choices.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: Ah, love.
45:38
SPEAKER_02: And I and I and I tell parents they need to give choices.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: Don't say, hey, do you want to go out cycling with mom and dad tonight?
45:44
SPEAKER_02: Say, I'd really love to spend some time with you this week.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking we could either maybe go for a bike ride together, or do you feel like going out and doing an escape room?
45:56
SPEAKER_02: You decide.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: Elaine, I I did choices for my kids their whole life.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Right.
46:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:02
SPEAKER_02: And I have this night available or this night available.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: You choose.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: And then let's look at the time.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: So I'm available from this time to this time, which time works for you.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: So now they've made the decision about what they're doing, they've been able to make the decision about what day, and they've even gotten to choose the time.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: So they feel like they had agency in the decision making.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't you saying, let's do this, or why don't you do this?
46:27
SPEAKER_02: When someone starts a sentence with should, you should stop listening.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: So don't ever start any of your sentence with your kids with the the words you should.
46:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, but ask, I ask, okay, what are the things that you used to do that you might find you'll still be interested now, or something similar to that that you might find interesting, or what's a new thing that you've never tried that you think you might want to try?
46:56
SPEAKER_02: Um so we have conversations about where do you want to make changes in your life?
47:02
SPEAKER_02: What's the barrier to those changes?
47:05
SPEAKER_02: And what's the first step we can take towards creating change?
47:10
SPEAKER_02: And then they get to decide what's the first step I can take.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, I could I could go for a walk.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: A lot of kids are willing to go for a walk before they're willing to hit the gym.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: Gyms are not social places anyway, and they're quite intimidating.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:26
SPEAKER_02: And so you're better off to just be out, maybe join a hiking group instead, but you have to be careful of that too, because you know, if it's daytime, it can be a lot of people that are much older than you.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Probably easier to find a cycling club in the evening.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: I often tell them to go to recreation centers where there's, you know, rec volleyball or basketball or pickleball and do it in the evening on the day because you're more likely to run into younger people.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: So you're not meeting with resistance because of your approach, because of how you're being so open-ended.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: You're letting them tell you what they want to do and you're giving them options.
48:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh, sometimes I'm not with resistance.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you are?
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:07
SPEAKER_02: They're holding on to that addiction pretty tight.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: And also remember, I'm working with kids that are neurodiverse, and often social interaction is not comfortable for them.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times we have to work on that.
48:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, how they can, you know, so a little bit of um exposure therapy of let's try a little bit, you know, stepping out of your comfort zone.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: What's your worst fear?
48:33
SPEAKER_02: What's the worst thing that can happen?
48:34
SPEAKER_02: How are you gonna handle that worst thing that could happen?
48:37
SPEAKER_02: Because really, we're never afraid of what's gonna happen.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: We're afraid of how we're gonna handle what's gonna happen.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: So if we've got some good coping strategies in place for how we're gonna handle adversity, we're more likely to be able to go comfortably and try things.
48:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times it's just about, you know, I have difficulty making friends.
48:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's talk about why.
48:58
SPEAKER_02: Is it you have difficulty striking up conversations?
49:02
SPEAKER_02: A lot of my kids are quite deep thinkers and like to have really meaty, uh, meaningful conversations.
49:11
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times they're not meeting like-minded young people, you know, they're frivolous partiers that you don't want to have those kinds of conversations.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: And so, what kind of activities can we get them involved in where they're gonna meet like-minded people and have those deeper conversations?
49:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: So the bottom line is, and I really want parents to sit with this.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, real life connections matter along along with the in-person stimulation and physical activity, whether that's done on your own or with a group.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I often ask myself, why do we let this happen?
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, why do we let them just game all night or sit on their screens all day?
49:54
SPEAKER_01: Kind of going back a little bit, but I really want parents to to ask themselves, what are you afraid of?
50:00
SPEAKER_01: What is stopping you?
50:02
SPEAKER_01: And is it because we're too tired to, I mean, they're gaming at night, so we're too tired to say, stop gaming, or why don't you do something else?
50:09
SPEAKER_01: Or or we don't want the fight, right?
50:11
SPEAKER_01: There's always that like they're so combative because they think you're pulling them away.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: And or we don't have other options.
50:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've given you given such great options though.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: So after this, I'm sure they'll be like, oh yeah, I never thought about that.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, or we tell ourselves it's just a phase.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: But the truth is, again, I really want parents to sit with this, that avoiding the conflict only makes this problem bigger.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: So I think our kids deserve more in life.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I'm feel so strongly about why I do this and speak to people like yourself.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, because what's whatever is going on behind those closed doors, whatever they're doing, um, they're not living.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: And and so nothing good will happen when they're in that room.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Elena, always want to leave on a positive note, and your suggestions have been amazing.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: But what are some of the changes that parents can expect to see or that these young adults can expect to experience when you get them away, even if it's less away, but away from their online screening, videos, scrolling, whatever.
51:21
SPEAKER_01: What's the light at the end of the tunnel that parents can kind of, you know, look forward to?
51:28
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna start living again.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna start to feel confident.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: They're going to feel joy, like true joy in their lives.
51:40
SPEAKER_02: I just got the shivers.
51:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:43
SPEAKER_02: And I know what you're saying.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: Parents often are very afraid of their kids, and some can be quite aggressive, especially when you're dealing with you know late teens and young adult men.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's scary.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: It's very scary.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: A lot of parents just want to be their kids' friend and they don't want to disrupt the relationship.
51:59
SPEAKER_02: But if your kid's addicted and isolated in the room, you're not having a healthy relationship anyway.
52:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, in in my interview with Jake yesterday, I'll go back to that.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: I said, you know, if you could go back to when you were isolated and addicted so badly, what would you say to that Jake?
52:22
SPEAKER_02: And he said nothing.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't change any of that because I needed to go through that experience and go through recovery to become the person I am.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't have listened to myself anyway.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: I needed you to force me to look at it and force me to detox.
52:42
SPEAKER_02: I was happy to do it.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: I think we could end on that.
52:47
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, first of all, thank you so much for coming back.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: And for us to, you know, dig a little bit deeper into what this all means.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm I'm sure that parents will get a lot out of this conversation.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: And I want to end on that because I, you know, you I've I've said it enough times that I know I believe this is gonna be a wake-up call for how bad isolation is.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: Um but I love the fact that that Jake had that epiphany.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: I just love that.
53:18
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna end on that note, and I will definitely be, you know, giving all of your contact information and that blog post, which I think was really well done, well written.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: And um, I I think parents will just go back to it.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Eileen, for coming back.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: And let's keep this going.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, it was episode whatever, 24, and now we're at whatever, 40 something.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: So I'll see you in 20 episodes and we'll we'll talk about your book, your next book.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Sherry.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: And I one day really wanted me, Jake.
53:53
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, that happened.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: All right.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Elaine.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
53:59
SPEAKER_01: I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood.
54:08
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54:14
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54:19
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54:28
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54:32
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54:38
SPEAKER_01: And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: Talk to you soon.