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How to Find the Secret Gift of Introverts with Jon Baker · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's Roxanne Durgesh.
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Nice to have you on with me again this week.
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Today, I have a special colleague on, John Baker.
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John, and I met, I couldn't think about a month ago.
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So when I had the privilege of being on his podcast and, with a fascinating topic that John
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focuses on, which is about introverts.
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That being said, I'm I'm the one that's called the chatterbox in my family and the middle
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child of 6 children, and I was always trying to find my spot So I'm the introvert that, you
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know, extrovert that was ready in the front and center.
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And, John, is a self proclaimed introvert.
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So John does a lot of work with introverts, but what I'm interested in is his work, but also
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him, coming from the of someone that's introverted how he kind of got into this kind
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of, the world of, working, training and speaking with introverts.
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So, John, welcome to the podcast.
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Hey, Roxanne.
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Great to be here.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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It's a subject, as you know, because we spoke about it for quite a while off air that I kinda
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get get excited about.
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But, think you you asked a nice question there, which is how did I get involved?
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I've been I've been involved in management training, leadership for many, many years.
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I, you know, when I was fat, fun years, and I even cared to think about now.
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But, So originally in retailing and then in B2B, training sales teams around Europe,
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etcetera, till the day I said, great.
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I'm gonna stop with that.
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I'm gonna work for myself.
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So I've been working for myself for about, oh, getting on for 20 years now.
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And coaching organizations and leaders in organizations.
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And initially, you know, it wasn't around introversion.
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Initially, it was around strategy.
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It was around business development and leadership.
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And then about 2 or 3 years ago, I was I I I restructured my life, and I was looking to to
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to create a stronger niche or niche, as you might say, might call it, I think.
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But, And so I I was reflecting on a lot of the work that I've done.
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And the times when the times when I've I've been more effective as a coach, The times when
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I've enjoyed my work more, and I've I've felt I've got more from it, and the times when the
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best results came out.
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And very often, When I look back on it, it's when I've been working with or about and the
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subjects have been largely around introverts.
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And so that's when I started to say, you know what?
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There's something in here.
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I'm gonna start writing a book.
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I'm gonna start doing some research around the area.
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And so the the specialists and the niches deepened since then, I think, is probably the
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the best way to put it.
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And It kind of started quite often with people saying, you know, I'd be working with somebody
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who who might sit and say, in my team, there's There's there's 2.
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And no one seemed to be every single team has seems to have 2 or 3 people that never speak up
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and the leader says to me, what shall I do about them?
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I think I just gotta get rid of them.
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They clearly don't have any ideas.
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They never say anything.
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And what a waste of time?
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And you kind of look at them and you because because I was working differently with them.
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I could go, hang on.
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I know they know a load of stuff.
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I know they're really good.
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So it's not any of that.
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So what's going on.
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And very often, it's the way that they were being treated.
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And it's interesting because when I started to to do the research and I've done spoken to
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about 450, 500 business people.
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Now both introvert and extrovert, about productivity and some of the issues that affect
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them.
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And about 40% of people We'll sit there and say quietly to me, they might not say it to their
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boss, but quietly to me, they'll say they're not properly productive.
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Which is kinda shocking, although they'll speak to HR people and they go, that's about right.
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Then what I did was kind of like an onion, I unpilled a few more layers and tried to find
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out what.
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And there's three things where these three things Overlap is the the greatest problem.
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Number 1, communication style within the company.
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Number 2, company culture, which, let's be honest, is very much based around the
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communication style.
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And number 3, intro.
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So where you've got an introvert that has has a is working in a company where there's a
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culture, which is very much more extrovert, which is very much more at ego driven.
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And as a particular type of communication style, the introverts weren't as productive.
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In other words, they were being pushed to one side.
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So I started to explore that and go, hey.
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What's actually happening here?
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So that's where it came from.
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Interesting.
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Right?
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Because, I think of the organizations that I've worked with, and I'm curious, with sales
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organizations or subsets of organizations in sales.
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What happens to introverts in those environments?
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Is it is it a different experience for them?
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Because productivity is productivity at the end of the at at the end of the line.
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Right?
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But I know that's oftentimes within companies, and I think of the companies that I've worked
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with or for, you know, sales is about the kind of the rah rah front of the line, ecobase, you
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know, kind of egocentric kind of subculture within the culture.
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So I'm curious with your experience with introverts, how do they fare in in those kind
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of subsets of organizations.
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I think there's a couple of interesting things here.
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So the first thing for me is just just the direct question, which people sometimes say is
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can introvert make good salespeople?
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And the answer to me is absolutely yes.
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Very good friend of mine wrote the the book, networking for dummies.
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Great, great friend, Ben Kench, and I was chatting to him a great length on this.
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And we both kind of went, you know what?
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There's an old saying, particularly in the UK, that, people have got 2 of these on one of
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these, and salespeople should use them in that proportion.
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But as you probably know, most, most extroverts tend to use them in the opposite proportion.
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So can introverts sell, yeah, because they're very good at listening and then asking the
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right questions, which sometimes, some of our more extroverted colleagues get carried away
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and and keep talking.
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So so that's kind of answering the direct question about can they sell?
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And then, of course, your question was about How are they in those organizations?
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And I think, again, the more extroverted, the more ego driven the organization the less the
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less the intuit feel comfortable within that organization.
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And yet, the reason why I started saying, hey.
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This is a leadership issue is because it's leaders that set the communication style and
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the leaders that set the culture.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And if if the leadership is looking for quote, unquote extra virgin as as a as an indicator of
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performance in sales, that's gonna direct potentially how their culture views, their
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sales teams But really at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's about, bottom lines and
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productivity at the end of the day.
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And if you interface accordingly for what you're saying, I often say that introverts,
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they topple me over sometimes because they will come up with such a subset of points But I'm,
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I'm oftentimes too far ahead, and then, then they'll call me back because they, they are
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able to synthesize, their points of view into one overall strategic kind of objective.
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And I go, where did that come from?
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Right?
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Cause I'm getting there, but I'm probably getting there, at a slower pace because I'm
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I'm, like you said, oftentimes I'm talking.
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And, the the some of the best, people that have taught me to be a better listener generally has
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been an introvert.
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I think there's an interesting thing in that that you just said.
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Many and This comes down to a kind of semi definitional thing if I could put it like that.
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Many people will talk about introverts and rightly so as having should we say feeling de
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energized when they spend a lot of time with people and needing to recharge their batteries
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by being on their own?
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It's a bit like, some of the old, old, really old mobile phones with some of the old
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batteries.
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You as soon as you soon as you took them out of the dark room and unplugged them and did that
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bit where you needed to.
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You you spoke to them.
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You could see the battery games.
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And, so introverts.
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Very much about recharging alone whereas extroverts stereotypically are the opposite way
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around.
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Now lots of people will talk about that There is actually some neuroscientific background to
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that and around dopamine and acetylcholine makeup and and, sensitivity, but let's push
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that one to one side before we all fall asleep.
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The other the other thing, which is why I mentioned this one was quite interesting.
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Most of the introverts I speak to are what I would call internal processes, whereas most of
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the extroverts are external processes, So what's that look like in a in a business, in a
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in a typical meeting even?
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You ask the introvert the question.
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They stop when they're processing the answer inside their head.
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Mhmm.
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And typically, they want to come out with the best, the most structured, the most exactly as
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you said, synthesized piece that links all the bits together before they open their mouth and
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speak.
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Whereas the extrovert typically will fire words straight back out.
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And that's their way of thinking.
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It's not good.
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It's not bad.
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It's it's just different.
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It's not, At the end of the day, it's not not even any faster because when you get to the end
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of the result, as you said, it's about joining all the bits together to come out.
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What's the best answer?
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So there is some background to to exactly what you said about processing.
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It's different ways people think.
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However, the downside is this is why I mentioned the meetings thing very often, some
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people don't like gaps in the conversation.
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So if somebody might ask me a question or throw a questionnaire into a meeting and what
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typically happens?
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The extroverts externally process, and so they start firing answers out there.
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The introverts stop think and and might come out with the answer a a second later.
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They're not slow.
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They're just thinking differently.
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And the the problem with that is, of course, you then go, oh, they will start talking.
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I'll shut up.
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And quite often we find that the introvert answer is, well, unless they feel incredibly
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strongly about something, they're not gonna be prepared to batter their way into an
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extroverted conversation where words are just flying around.
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Yep.
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Yep.
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And then there there's part of the problem.
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And that's why that's why he it's important whether it's in meetings and discussions.
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However, we like to look at it to to make that space for the whole team to become involved.
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And so I don't look at it and say, oh, it's about restructuring things for introverts when
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I work with leaders and say, well, If I said to you, 40% of your your business is not properly
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productive due to your communication style and your culture, would you wanna do something?
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And hell, yes, is the normal answer.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Creating the space in the way we work.
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And that's so interesting, right?
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You said about 35 to 40%.
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That's a substantive amount of your population.
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And, Let's say, and I'm this is a I'm I'm interested in this.
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Let's say you're how many CEOs have you of companies have you worked with or have been
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interfaced with or know of that are introverted, and how does that impact culture?
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Well, well, it's quite interesting actually.
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So firstly, are they introverted CEOs?
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Yes.
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Absolutely.
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We don't always think of them, but Some some of the ones that might jump up, you your listeners
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may have heard of Microsoft.
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Yes.
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They may have heard of oh, I can't call it Facebook now.
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I have to call it meta.
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And
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then we're talking so we're talking big CEOs.
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So is introversion a blockage to being a really successful business person.
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No.
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It's not.
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But very often, I've I've worked with business owners who are introverted.
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And some of them are absolutely get this stuff, and they try and create the relevant culture
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for the introverts.
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Some of them, however, have kind of battered their way to the top through doggy diligence
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and desire.
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But because they've grown up in a let's call it an extroverted biased world, they then start to
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run things in an reverted way because that's the model they've learned.
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And so it's when you stop and point them out, point out to them what's going on, they're
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like, Oh, yeah.
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And there's a big, big light bulb goes on.
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So so it's not just to sit there and say introverted leaders get this stuff and
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extroverts don't.
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It's is because the way that we all tend to work, especially, I think, in a, you know,
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Western Business Society.
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Right.
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And looking at, so, like, with my new book, ROR return on relationships.
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I talk about the leader really looking within him or herself to understand what they value
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and, you know, what it what you know, what Like you said, if the introverted person has to
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kinda, you know, bat their way up in that extroverted world, there's gonna be, you know,
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prongs that they're gonna get stuck into at times, and they might overcompensate, but to
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also understand that from a, a, a macro level to say, what is it that I need to look at
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within myself as a leader, whether an introvert or an extrovert to create the culture that
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you're looking for to impact, you know, all creativity, engagement, you know, all those
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fantastic things that eventually impact the bottom line.
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Right?
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So, you know, it's it's interesting when you look at it from that perspective.
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Absolutely.
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You know?
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Yeah.
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And I think one of the first things that I often see and all people come back to me with
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is is always those couple of people over there that that never that never say anything in
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meetings.
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And then my next question is quite often.
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Tell me about the rest of the group.
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Oh, well, there's there's quite a number of them that sometimes doing this, and there's 2
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or 3 that never shut up in the meeting.
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So so what I'm gonna say is that's the situation, that's one of the first things to
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reflect on because what's going on, the first thing you probably need to do to create space
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for the introverts to participate more is shut these guys up here.
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And that's a it's quite an interesting reflection, and that that's an incredibly
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simple one.
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And it and it has big, big impact.
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It and it's not about, as I said, it's not about going.
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I've got to got to make make space for these snowflakes or whatever.
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Some people might like to call them.
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It is about going, how do I increase overall creativity and productivity in the team?
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Because the different ways of thinking come up with really different and much more sustainable
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answers.
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And so sometimes it's as simple as going Right.
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I'm po posing the question, but holding back some of the the ones that respond much more
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quickly.
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And there's various ways of doing that.
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And anybody that's a trainer will recognize the following one.
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Okay?
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Don't answer the following question.
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Please don't say anything.
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Write your answer down.
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Yes.
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And, of course, as trainers, they will do it on post it notes.
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Everyone's stick up on the wall.
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They're really, mate.
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It's and yet most of us are aware of that.
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And yet It's when you understand the science and what's going on behind it in terms of
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introversion and stinking space.
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You suddenly go, ah, everyone's a bit more engaged because they took the time to write
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something down.
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And because I as an introvert have taken the time to express that.
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Even if only in writing, I thought it through, and everyone hasn't started firing off.
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So I'm a bit more engaged already.
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So once I'm more engaged, I'm more likely to continue being engaged.
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So leaders need to be aware of what's in front of them and look at their styles in reference
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to engagement and really altered and think about, you know, if it's, if it's always these
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two people, that are answering or, you know, sometimes, like I say, there's often 1 or 2
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people that like to hear their voice in a meeting.
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Yeah.
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So you kind of you know, okay, think, okay, I I don't have to worry about those 2.
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They're gonna tell me what they think regardless if I ask them or not.
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And there's people kinda that are in the middle, and there's oftentimes the people that
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are quiet.
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So gauging that internally with yourself as a leader to say, I know there's value, in this
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room.
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Period?
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And how is it that I'm gonna make it safe enough psychologically, emotionally?
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And like you said, create different avenues to be able to afford those individuals to be able
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to share information.
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Cause I think if you're thinking you're not looking under your entire room, and I would say
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most leaders have capacity to do this.
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However, sometimes they might, you know, fall into those traps where where it's easy to kinda
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go with the people that speak up.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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It's it's a it's a habitual thing, isn't it?
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You especially if you're asking a a question which you're and you're you're still trying to,
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a, listen to the content of the discussion as well as join in as well as manage the process
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of the discussion.
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It's very used to fall into that trap of letting the conversation flow because it's
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easier.
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It might be easier, but it's not easier to get to a better result.
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It's just easier to get a conversation flowing.
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So one of the other things you can quite often do is don't facilitate your own meetings.
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Stop and get somebody else.
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That way you as a leader can focus on the content and you get somebody else to run the
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meetings, and here's the interesting thing.
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Guess what?
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Who do you think in the room tends to be very good at listening to all the views,
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summarizing, synthesizing, and then holding questions and and holding the pace of the meet
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of the meeting to to include everybody.
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Introists tend to make very, very good facilitate as well.
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I'm not saying only using driver facilitators, but they tend to be good once they go, oh,
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yeah.
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I'm that that that the person running this group really wants me and values me.
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They're getting me to do this.
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And suddenly, again, you've got this this growth in, engagement very generally, which
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starts to lead on to some of the things around productivity And, of course, retention, the
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other big one, I was asked yesterday, had a client ring me up and's absolutely shocked
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absolutely shocked because she said to me, the best person in her business had suddenly handed
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in her notice with no No.
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Yeah.
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She's completely completely bald sided by it, and we talked about it.
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And, we talked about the fact that what this person clearly hadn't done is expressed how
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dissatisfied they were going, what they had done, but just in micro ways over the last 3 or
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4 months, that they hadn't been listened to.
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And needless to say, you know, because it because it's my story, it's going to be, isn't
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it?
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But Needless to say it was an introverted member of staff that had suddenly handed in
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their notice.
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And I'm not saying it's only introverts that ever leave, but it was quite interesting that
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they had expressed, and they made little micro statements over the 3 or 4 months rather than
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kind of splurging out and going, I'm fed up with this and doing the drama queen thing.
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Right.
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Because I would say expressive people let you know when they're not happy.
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Oh, yeah.
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Right?
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And, you know, you know, I I think of my son and he, you know, he says to me, mom, I'm not
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like you.
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He goes, I'm an introvert.
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I said, I think I said, I think I was an introverted area.
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She goes, I don't think so, mom, because she needs to type when we have conversations,
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because I will often say, So tell me what you think.
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And he'll look at me with this blank stare, and I, and he'll go, I'm thinking, I'm thinking,
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mom.
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And I'm like, So it's interesting, right?
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Like, that introverts will have a lot of things going on for them, but to your point, they
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still they need to kind of go backwards in their brain to think, okay.
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If I'm gonna say one thing, I'm gonna make it stick.
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And, you know, RJ and my son is a is he's great for me.
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That way because I always go, so, like, what's happening?
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I've said this, this, this, and he's like, I need to get back to you, and I'm like, what?
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Because the introvert the extrovert in me wants to answer right now.
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And then he'll say, well, no, I thought about it, and I thought this, this, and this, but I
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didn't like this, and I thought about this, and I'm like, wow, you got all of that out of that
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little conversation, but there's a part of me that wants it immediately.
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So I think That example you use, John, is amazing because that should show companies that
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how are you, how are you looking into, feedback?
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Like, or how are you gauging the pulse of your of your teams or the different subsets of your
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business, is it based on what the manager is saying or, you know, Or is it really is there
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other ways that you're collating how well people are feeling?
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The other interesting thing in your your your discussion with your son, and what you clearly
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did, you made space for him to answer, which is Brilliant.
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What a lot of people don't do, even in one to one conversations, particularly extroverts, so
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far out the question, And then just as you said, hang on.
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I wanna get on.
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I want I wanna know the answer.
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One didn't come back.
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So what do they now do?
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They go on and start to answer it.
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Themselves.
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And they move on and jump on, whereas the interested person is still sitting there going,
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oh, Of course, what you're actually training somebody to do by by continually speaking once
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you've asked the question.
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You're training them that you're not interested in their answer.
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So you're shutting down growth, right, because I would think I know when I coach, you know, in
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more introverted people versus extroverted people, I can say to them a The extrovert I
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could say so, like, what was the best part of this?
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Was it what was the worst part of it?
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And what is it that you need to focus on?
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But the introvert will say to me, I will ask the question on the beginning of this on, the
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follow-up session to say, I know we we talked about a ton last week.
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And I'm just wondering, what was your biggest giveaway?
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Your takeaway and where would you like to focus this week?
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So It's not that you're not asking the same question, but you're you're maybe, prefacing it
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based on the context of the personality that's in front of you.
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Yeah.
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Or or the other thing to do that I've known several people to do is they ask the same if
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they don't get an answer within the first few seconds, they'll ask again in a very slightly
24:14
different way so that what you're doing, you're trying to effectively, you're undoing all the
24:20
the bad training you've given before.
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Because in not letting somebody answer, your training then you're not interested.
24:28
So you've got undo that that training first.
24:31
So ask again in a slightly different way or set it up in the way that you just said by I'm
24:37
helping them to to restructure that question, but wait for that answer.
24:40
So I'm curious when companies, when you deal with, I mean, obviously, this is a team shoes.
24:45
It's not a, like you said, it's not an introvert, extrovert kind of.
24:48
You're looking at subset.
24:49
You get called in.
24:51
Maybe there's productivity or issues or maybe people are trying to kind of, look at their,
24:56
kind of, the metrics for the quarter or overall strat plan, like you said, that you worked
25:00
with.
25:01
So how do you work with an organization that says, calls you in and says, you know, I I know
25:06
we're we're doing well.
25:07
Let's say.
25:08
Right?
25:08
We're doing well, but we there's room And I want to to figure out what kind of, gaps are
25:16
there or what kind of things are missing to optimize the productivity, say, of my senior
25:21
leadership team.
25:22
What would you approach that, John, when you work with?
25:25
One one of the first things would be to stop and listen sit sit through sit through a couple
25:30
of meetings with that senior leadership team.
25:34
Quite often, actually, and you'll get this one as well, you'll be told, oh, 2 members of the
25:39
senior leadership team that are struggling a lot more than the others.
25:43
And so rather than sitting and listening to the whole senior leadership, team.
25:47
It might be about sitting in with the the team meetings of of those couple of the senior
25:52
leadership team so that you can start to go, well, what's going on?
25:57
Because then you're in a position where you can start to play that back and you can start to
26:01
ask questions to help people unlock what's going on of the kind of things we've just been
26:07
talking about today.
26:08
So rather than me sitting there saying, you or never let them answer the question, you know,
26:13
that's not gonna work.
26:14
But it is about listening and then asking questions to help people reflect as as all
26:19
coaches do as as I'm sure you do all the time.
26:21
Absolutely.
26:22
And I think to your point, and sometimes people when they know they're being looked at in a
26:27
meeting, sometimes they're gonna give you what they think you need
26:31
Yeah.
26:31
And then to have different ways of collecting that information, but asking kind of as as
26:36
standardized as possible question I would think to see, you know, what what kind of themes or
26:41
patterns are coming out.
26:43
So let's say you're, CEO or senior leader and you're, you're looking, you're saying, oh, I
26:50
I'm kind of guilty of this culprit that we've been talking about.
26:54
I kinda go to the person that's front front of the line, the loudest person, and I need to
27:00
enhance my skills as a leader.
27:03
You've already given us some point.
27:04
And what other tips could you give those leaders to enhance their capacity to listen in
27:12
a different way.
27:13
I think one of the other ones is to to ask yourself the question about what the value of
27:19
of doing this is because we're all as leaders, we're used to going and, you know, talking
27:23
about business cases, etcetera.
27:25
So what's the business case in in helping those Waiting for those 2 people to answer their
27:31
questions.
27:31
What's going on?
27:32
Because if you start to reflect on the value that they bring in different ways.
27:37
They might not bring it immediately out in team meetings, but what's the value they bring to
27:41
the organization?
27:43
Because if there is some good value in there, then it it's much clearer how you can get extra
27:48
value by enhancing it.
27:51
So looking at it from a value proposition, to because, like, I mean, if you think I you have
27:57
a team of 15, and 40% of that and then thinking individually.
28:02
So you're already talking, and I often talk about leaders really, even though I know
28:06
everybody's busy, you have to get to know who's in front of you.
28:10
Yep.
28:10
And what do they bring to the table?
28:12
Because sometimes it's kinda like a, you know, a hope and pray that I'm I'm gonna come up with
28:17
a strategy, and it's gonna hit everybody.
28:19
But if you don't know individually, what the value is, you know, who is John or who is
28:24
Roxanne and what's important Not that I'm saying you need to, oftentimes, leaders will
28:29
say, you know, I can't get really, really personal.
28:32
I'm not suggesting, you know, everything over the person's life but what makes them like you
28:36
said, what is their value?
28:37
And, also, what what are what do they value?
28:41
Yeah.
28:41
I'll ask ask that question.
28:43
Yeah.
28:43
What is, what is the outcome that they're looking for in their lives as being part of
28:48
whatever, team that they're working on and things like that?
28:51
So that way it could be more of a, a toy dialogue so that when you're running your
28:55
meetings as well, I would think that you're you're wanting to think that through.
28:59
Yeah.
29:00
Or the things that leaders might want to do cut off immediately that might stumble, their
29:07
process.
29:08
Think the first things I always sit there and say zip it.
29:12
Ask a question.
29:14
Shut your mouth.
29:15
And that that's I know it's a really simple one.
29:17
I know it's a really obvious one, but it is time and time again.
29:20
The thing that I see happening is, because as I said earlier, we by answering for somebody, we
29:28
train them.
29:28
We're not interested in them.
29:29
And then, you know, then we go on and talk about retention rates and, the great
29:33
resignation And of course, one of the things that drives that is when people don't feel as
29:38
if you're interested in them.
29:40
So so do, you know, consciously Pacific, when you ask questions, give give Yonkers a space of
29:48
time for somebody to answer.
29:50
Pro begin in a slightly different way if you need to.
29:53
But we'll start to do that.
29:56
And and that that's that's just a one to one.
29:58
And the the equivalent, of course, in the team meeting, is is asking and phrasing the whole
30:03
thing differently.
30:04
Another really, really silly one, because, right, we all know because we've been told
30:10
since we were this high, that when you're running a meeting, you must always send out the
30:14
agenda.
30:15
Early.
30:17
How many of us do it?
30:20
Oh, I couldn't do it.
30:21
I was I was too busy.
30:22
Very guilty often.
30:25
We're we're starting the meeting now.
30:26
Here's the agenda.
30:27
Sorry.
30:27
I was really busy.
30:29
Actually, it takes no more no more time to prepare the agenda 10 minutes before you go
30:34
into the meeting than it does a week before the meeting.
30:36
But what it's allowing the internal processes in the room to do is to stop and think about
30:42
how they're going to add value to that meeting.
30:45
So these external process will just happily wing it and fire away stuff anyway.
30:50
The internal ones can sit and go, right.
30:51
Okay.
30:52
Here's something I want to structure my thoughts on in advance.
30:55
Here's how I will answer that question.
30:57
Again, you're you're getting more engagement into that.
31:01
So some of these things, are they rocket science?
31:04
No.
31:04
I'd love to sit there and say there was some amazing answer to Roxanne.
31:07
The only I know of in the whole world And that's what made me.
31:11
The truth is it is about stopping and taking the time to understand why some of these things
31:17
that we probably do know about, but we don't do.
31:20
And it's either because we don't appreciate the value of the thing or the value of the person.
31:26
You know, and I'm just listening to you, and I'm thinking, how many times I've been guilty
31:29
of that, you know, over the years and when and my, you know, because you're you're right.
31:34
You're like, oh, I forgot to send this out.
31:36
I should've, you know, and something as basic as that, and how that would help you me as the
31:41
leader as well.
31:43
It already did help when I would because everybody knew what to expect and you This is a
31:47
30 minute meeting.
31:49
This is the outcome.
31:50
This is the discussion that what that's on the table.
31:53
You know, we have 5 minutes to discuss any go forward things, all those things that structure
31:59
of the meeting too is also there.
32:01
Creates again, not context of when I go to safety, right?
32:04
Like, I know what this is about.
32:05
I know it's not gonna take a little afternoon.
32:07
I know it's not gonna be willy nilly.
32:09
Everybody's throwing everything out, but there's a structure to it.
32:12
And then, you know, for individuals that need to synthesize or even more, it helps them to
32:18
get a book market size.
32:20
Now, John, I'm sure people listening would want to know, where they can get ahold of you and,
32:27
if they wanted to chat with you and maybe even do a discovery called Where would, where would
32:31
they get a hold?
32:32
Oh, either on LinkedIn, which is really easy, that's John Baker, which is j o n, or on my
32:37
website, which is introvert in business, dotco.uk.
32:42
Awesome.
32:43
Nice.
32:43
And thanks thanks so much for being here.
32:46
And what am I learning?
32:47
I think, you know, I think I'm I'm pretty good at understanding, but sometimes I get a miss.
32:55
And if I'm a a miss in a conversation to backup, for me to say ask for time to step
33:01
back.
33:02
And because I think oftentimes, you know, people may not think because they're, you know,
33:07
you're kinda going down the, you know, the trajectory.
33:10
You're thinking there's no way for me to back up, but I don't wanna look stupid.
33:13
So I don't know what to do.
33:14
To even just say, you know what?
33:16
I'm a little bit ahead of myself here.
33:17
I've not thought this through.
33:20
I'd like I would I'd like to slow down.
33:21
Can you help me out with that even.
33:23
So I think engaging is something that I think I from our conversation today, I think it would
33:29
help me, also in, I had my various roles that I play.
33:33
So, again, John, thanks so much.
33:35
Anyway, though, Roxanne, I really like that question because in it, you just sat there and
33:39
said, I'm getting a bit of my hand as myself.
33:42
I'd like to slow down.
33:43
Can you help me?
33:44
And how do we when somebody says, can you help me?
33:46
We all say, yes.
33:48
Love to.
33:49
Brilliant.
33:50
Thank you.
33:51
So for everyone listening, I'm about to release my new book, ROR return on relationships, how
33:58
to amplify resilient teams, I'm gonna be talking about it a lot, reaching out, to me, if
34:05
you'd like to know a bit more, you can just, hit the link at the bottom and book a discovery
34:10
call with me.
34:11
So again, John, John, thanks for your time.
34:13
And everyone, thanks for hanging in there with John and I, and I look forward to connecting
34:17
with monthly.
34:18
Take care.
34:20
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
34:25
healthy chain.
34:27
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit Roxanne
34:34
Durgesh dotcom/blueprint.
34:37
We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.