Latest / Sports In America with David Greene / The Reinvention of Rex Chapman

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The Reinvention of Rex Chapman · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: Welcome to Sports in America, everybody. You know, if you are looking for a team to support in the NHL hockey playoffs, I'm gonna recommend the Buffalo Sabres. Buffalo is a city, a gritty city that is starving for a championship, and the Sabres have had this incredible turnaround season. They're in the playoffs now, and a lot of their fans think that they have a shot at their first Stanley Cup championship. And there is no bigger fan, I don't think, in Buffalo than Scott Lee, who is with me right now. Scott, I'm looking at you on a camera, and you are sitting next to— I mean, what I can only describe is it looks like the Stanley Cup. What exactly am I looking at here? SCOTT LEE: So my dad is a welder, right? This is basically a one-to-one replica. Same circumference, same height. It's about 10 pounds lighter than the real deal. Stainless steel, probably about $400 worth of steel. He actually made one way back in the day, back when the Sabers were good. We're talking, you know, 15, almost 20 years ago. So I knew he had it in him. I had to beg him for a couple of months, but here it is. I don't think he knew the plans I had for it. I think he thought it would just be more of a trophy or a side piece. DG: Just something you would put in your living room or something like that? SL: Yeah, no, I had much bigger plans. DG: So you were begging him over time, like, "Hey dad, can you make me a replica Stanley Cup?" SL: Yes, I mean, he just kind of took scrap metal from around the warehouse where he works at. So he kind of had to do it in secret on the side, and yeah, he takes some convincing for sure. So, eventually, he got it together. We ordered a salad bowl off of Amazon and... DG: That's a salad bowl on top? SL: Yeah, we had to actually, the first one broke. We got one that was just a little bit too thin, and a couple games ago, it broke off, and one of the tacks on the side actually cut somebody on the hand because everybody loves to chug out of it and pick it up and shake it. DG: Oh, god. SL: And had it replaced the next day, the guy was fine. He had a little cut, but he took it like a champ. So now we've got a good bowl on there. It's welded on there nice and tight. It's not going anywhere. DG: Okay, did you say people are chugging out of your replica Stanley Cup? Where is that exactly happening, and what are they drinking? I'm assuming beer, I mean, is that safe assumption? SL: Beer, yeah, Labatt Blue. Actually, so I'm in Montreal currently, and for the game, I made sure to drink American. What I could find was Pabst Blue Ribbon up here. So, mainly drinking beers out of this, pouring it right in the middle of everybody, right in the party in the plaza, right at Canalside. Really, whoever wants to drink out of it. If you're a Sabres fan, pour beer in there, and I'll help you hold it, because it's about 30 pounds and not the best chugging device. DG: So you're carrying this 30-pound replica Stanley Cup like outside the arena, like hoisting it and just wanting to, like, what message are you trying to send by carrying this thing around? SL: You know, I think it could be the year, and you know, I see a lot of people carrying around their duct tape Stanley Cups, there are beer cans Stanley Cups. This one is different when people, you know, hey, give it a lift and they feel the weight to it that, you know, this is the basically the real thing. I don't know. The message is just camaraderie, I guess. DG: You’re in Montreal, and we're talking right now in enemy territory for the Montreal Buffalo series. I mean, are Canadians fans allowed to drink out of this thing, or you're just looking for people like in their Sabres garb? SL: Just looking for Sabres fans yesterday. DG: Okay. SL: I had a few Canadian fans tear it out of my hand and pick it up. DG: What? SL: You know, I have the white gloves on, right? Oh, they get rough with it. (Laughs) DG: This gets violent? Are you worried about your safety? Is this, is it getting violent? SL: So, no, most of everybody's been pretty nice. You know, if they, you know, I leave it on the ground for a second to get a beer and someone picks it up, it's not like they're trying to run away with it. I've had some scarier moments, let's say, or, you know, moments that have teetered on the violent, but everybody here has been, for the most part, super nice. They actually, last night, they had to escort me out of the game because the Cup was too heavy. They refer to it as a weapon. I wasn't, it was on the ground when the police came up to me, but apparently somebody told them that I had the Cup and it was a bit too heavy. So they actually kicked me out with the Cup and they gave me the option to put it into coat check for $10. So they kicked me out, charged me $10, and let me back in. DG: Wait, I'm sorry, you're sitting inside the arena in Montreal, and someone comes up to you, the police... SL: Outside. DG: Outside the arena? SL: Yes, I haven't paid for a ticket yet. I like to be out in the fans, in Buffalo as well. DG: You don't actually go to the games. SL: I would have to pay for another ticket for this thing. DG: Wow. Okay. So you're you lit— Do you watch the games like on your phone or something when you're outside the arena? SL: So we have the party in the plaza, which is right at KeyBank Center in downtown Buffalo. DG: Right. So you're out there, you're out there watching with other fans. SL: Yes, then we, at Canalside, which is right, basically a block away. There's a big field. It's been rainy, so it's been super muddy, and everyone stands out there. They got a nice stage and a few big screens. So I've just been out there. DG: Okay. But you were, the police like kicked you out of this area and said that you had to take this large welded metal thing to coat check? SL: Yes, in Montreal, right? They said if you know, I pick it up and the Sabres score, fans won't be too happy. Maybe they try to knock it out of my hand and bump somebody in the head, and just not safe. So I'm sure you've seen or maybe you haven't, the Blade Gang in Buffalo, right? DG: Yeah. SL: Fans will show up on roller skates and hockey helmets, and hockey sticks. They won't allow any of that here. Can't even bring a hockey stick in. So definitely more strict. I think they've made the playoffs a little bit more than us, so they know the dangers and have seen it all. In Buffalo, it's brand new. DG: They're a little less rowdy. This is an all-new thing for you guys. SL: Yeah, Buffalo hasn't seen it in a while, so they're not sure yet. DG: So you, just so everyone understands, I was looking this up, I mean, Buffalo, obviously the Bills in the football world, lot of heartbreak, have not won a Super Bowl, won two championships in the pre-Super Bowl days. Sabres have also not won a championship. So this is a city that is really craving glory. SL: "Just give me one before I die." You'll see those shirts walking around, older guys will have them on it. We care about the Sabres and the Bills kind of hand in hand. Either one, a Stanley Cup, a Super Bowl, either one would just mean the world to this city. DG: And I can really relate. I do, having grown up in Pittsburgh, I think like these blue-collar Rust Belt cities, I would argue like sports means so much more. I don't totally know how to articulate it for the uninitiated, but like how would you describe Buffalo's relationship with its sports teams and why it matters so much? SL: Well, back in, I'm not sure when we sold the Bills. Back in, I want to say 2009 maybe, Terry Pegula purchased the Sabres in 2011, really when the 14-year drought began. In that time, it was very uncertain whether or not the Bills were gonna stay, whether or not the Sabres were gonna stay. Maybe the Sabres were a little bit more steady just for being right next to the border with Canada. But there was a very realistic chance that we were gonna lose both of our sports teams. And just kind of the feeling around town, I was a lot younger then, obviously, but it would have destroyed things. This is what we live and breathe. The fact that we only have two of them, right? We don't have the four major sports. We really don't have much else going on in the city. It's a much smaller city, so it's everything. We get winners pretty bad in Buffalo very famous for the snow, so hockey is huge, pond hockey is everywhere. Sports is everything. Bills fans are the best in the world. I would say maybe the Montreal fans are the best in hockey, but for sure, the Sabres are the best fans in America DG: I want to hear more about you and your dad's relationship. So you went to him earlier this season, you asked him if he would make you this Cup, but you said that you weren't really transparent about what your plans were for the Cup at that point. Like, what were those conversations like? SL: You know, he didn't want to do it at first, right? You know, he definitely takes some pushing. I knew he had it in him. He's been a welder for over 30 years now, and he's brought home pieces of work before. So I knew he was capable of it, but he's not one to go down to the games and go stand outside with me. He might go into the arena every once in a while, but he's not one to... How do I put it? He definitely took some convincing. He definitely took some convincing to get it done. But eventually he got the first piece done, and if you can see here, he hasn't run a weld around the entire side, and obviously we used a sailable for the top. It was a little bit thrown together. He had it ready on Game Two. So I rushed him a little bit. It's not his finest work, but I think the little bit of grittiness or the less polished, less effort kind of gives it some character. (Laughs) Definitely didn't think that I was going to be bringing it and hoisting it over my head and having everybody and their mother take a picture with it in front of the French Connection. I can't tell you how many pictures I've taken of Sabres fans holding it up and chugging a beer out of it, and the kids and everybody around. It's been such a great time. DG: You've become kind of a viral sensation. Does your dad— is he now grateful that he did this for you after he's seen all the reaction? SL: He can't get enough of it. He's asking for videos and pictures for everything I do. So I didn't really think it was, it was going to be this, you know, I wasn't trying to, you know, there's a lot of different Stanley Cups out there. So, you know, I didn't think it was going to be such a standout, you know, really just wanted to do it for the Sabers and, you know, show support that again, you know, we are the best hockey city in America, and just got to be a part of that as much as I can. DG: You know, I often love talking about sports and explaining to you know, non-fans sometimes that it's so much more than sports. You know, like sports is like a connection to your community, your city. It's a connection to family. I know, you know, that the connection to my late mom is all about the Steelers, Pirates, and Penguins too, but largely. the Steelers, like what, talk to me about the role of sports and your relationship with your dad, you know, growing up and, and even now. SL: Well, I'm so happy he got me into it so early. Back in, you know, we won the, we went to two straight Eastern Conference finals actually, shortly after the lockout in '04. We were just two straight Eastern Conference finals. We won the President's Trophy one of those years. You know, I was pretty young then, right? But I'm so glad he got me into it that early because, you know, if he had gotten me into it a little bit later, I would have been in the middle of the drought, and it just wouldn't have meant that much. These Sabres seem, or I guess the Sabres in general, I lost my mother in 2003 shortly after the Bills... DG: I'm so sorry. know that I know the pain of that. Yeah, I'm really sorry. SL: It's tough. That's okay. I appreciate it. Shortly after the Bills lose to the Bengals, that was definitely not— didn't make anything any easier. But that year, for the first time in a long time, the Sabres actually had some hope. They ended up missing the playoffs by one point that year. But, I remember my dad and I watching so many Sabres games that year, and somebody, family member or a friend, asked him, you know, "How are you guys getting by and, you know, how is everything holding up?" And he said, "Hey, you know, the Sabres are what's getting us through right now." So that kind of broke my heart a little bit, but it made sense. I mean, having some hope in the Sabres has got us through some tough times. DG: Was your mom a sports fan, too? SL: Oh yeah, big Bills fan. Football was almost a religious thing growing up. Every Sunday, very important for her, for me to be able to throw a football. You know, going out and playing catch with her as much as possible, that was like one of the main things she always wanted to do. So my grandfather was a high school football coach for over 22 years. So football was huge in our family growing up. I wasn't a hockey kid. I played football growing up. That was her main thing. My dad has always been more of the Sabres side of things. His father actually owned season tickets from the very origination of the Sabres. So, yeah, kind of both different sides of it. \[MUSIC\] DG: What happens to this Cup after this season? SL: Well, we win the Cup, right? We're gonna go, and let's say we beat the Aves in Seven. DG: You have no doubt, you sound very confident in the Sabres this year. SL: No doubt. We're going to the Cup for sure. This is the best team. DG: Okay. Okay. Well, let's, let me accept that. Let's say once you win the championship, what happens to the replica Cup? Once you, once the Sabres have the real Cup. SL: So my original idea is, hey, we're going to have the players sign it at the parade. And I have no doubt in my mind that if we do win the Cup, when we win the Cup, they will sign it at the parade. This thing has too much notoriety at this point. But now I'm thinking I'm going to get an actual etching machine, and I'll have to carry around a portable battery and actually let them etch their names into it. And then from there, I'm sure I'll get some pretty hefty offers for a high dollar amount for this thing, but we'll see if maybe the NHL Hall of Fame wants to look at it. At least the Sabres store or the Sabres Hall of Fame would put this thing somewhere, so I'd much rather see it go to one of those places. DG: I love that. Well, I hope you all out there understand why, now, after listening to Scott, I am suggesting that if you don't have a hockey team, if you don't have a dog in this fight at this point, you should all be pulling for the Buffalo Sabres along with Scott Lee. When we come back, we are going to switch from hockey to basketball and talk to former NBA star, now social media maven, Rex Chapman. But Scott Lee, best of luck to your Sabres, and I would love to do a beer out of that cup at some point with you. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. SL: Thank you so much, David. It's been an honor. If we win the Cup, you're going to get a beer out of this at some point. So we'll make it happen. DG: I'll be ready. Hey, everyone, so just a heads up here, in this episode, we are gonna be talking in a pretty real and sometimes graphic way about addictive behavior. \[MUSIC\] REX CHAPMAN: The whole truth about that game, we only had eight players available. ANNOUNCER: Twelve guys for the Chicago Bulls, a full team. The Miami Heat, it looks like a small gathering of friends, doesn't it? RC: The Bulls knew this. DG: What does it take to beat Michael Jordan, one of the most cold-blooded winners in the history of sports? Not many people can answer that, but Rex Chapman is one of them. We're gonna go back to February 23, 1996. Rex Chapman and the Miami Heat are taking on Jordan and his Chicago Bulls in the middle of their historic 72-win season. RC: They came in there for sure, thinking they were just going to waltz in and win. We really had nothing to lose. DG: Rex and the shorthanded Heat were the obvious underdogs against MJ and his juggernaut Bulls team. The two actually knew each other since high school, when they were both big stars. In an otherwise unremarkable game, Rex came out swinging. RC: Jim Lynam told me a long time ago, old time coach said, "Hey, you let a good player get going in this league and you've got a \[EXPLETIVE\] problem." ANNOUNCER: Rex Chapman puts up the three. RC: And they let me get going. ANNOUNCER: Smith into the corner, Rex Chapman for the open! ANNOUNCER 2: Wearing the Bulls out here, wearing them out! RC: I was just making shots. ANNOUNCER 2: They're trying to double-team him. RC: I was in a more focused part of the game. ANNOUNCER 2: And he is a pure red-hot shooter. RC: Just getting hot and putting 10 on another team in a matter of a minute, that's the greatest feeling in the world. ANNOUNCER: 77-59 now as Chapman double pumps, put it up to him! It is the Rex Chapman show now. DG: Rex was on fire. He was hitting three after three, but what makes this performance so memorable and that much more impressive is that Rex Chapman was matched up with arguably the greatest basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan. RC: Michael and I are friends. ANNOUNCER: Across the floor, Michael. RC: We're naturally matched up against one another because we're the two guards on both teams. ANNOUNCER: With Chapman on him. DG: Rex was dominating Jordan the entire game to the point where Bulls head coach Phil Jackson pulled Michael off guarding Rex Chapman because MJ, he kept getting beat. RC: Michael struggled more with players like myself, guys that ran around screens, because he gambled all the time. Trying to get your shot one-on-one against Michael was difficult, too. But if you're a route runner like Hornacek and myself and most two guards back in the day, we could get our shots. It was just, he was a nightmare to guard on the other end. ANNOUNCER: Chapman for three top of the circle, rebound tip. Pippen gets it out to Jordan. He's got Chapman on him. He'll fire for 18. ANNOUNCER 2: Look at him dancing around him, love it. He's loving it. RC: You didn't want to let Michael dunk the ball if at all possible because it energized him, and it not only energizes the fans in the building that are rooting for the Bulls, it energizes even your fans because they've come to see him do that. It's good pressure, that's why you play. ANNOUNCER: And the Miami Heat here at home get a big win. DG: These days, most people know Rex Chapman as the witty, feel-good social media personality and activist. Some actually forget he even had an NBA career, but in his prime, he was one of the best young players out there. He was a high school phenom in his home state of Kentucky, and he got the attention of the basketball powerhouse, the University of Kentucky. In just two seasons there, he scored more than a thousand points. ANNOUNCER: You notice how Kentucky sets up outside the three-point line. Nice back cut. Chapman, and that's 11 points for the freshman here this afternoon in the first half. DG: And when the NBA expanded and added the original Charlotte Hornets in 1988, Chapman was the team's first-ever draft pick. He had arrived in the league, but at a cost. The pressures and outsized expectations of the spotlight led to crippling depression. And then a series of injuries led Chapman to develop an addiction to opioids. Over time, he was able to turn his life around. It is a remarkable story, but on that night in February 1996. He had a singular focus, taking down the greatest of all time. Tell me what you remember from, from heading into that game. I mean, that Bulls team was like having— they just didn't lose. RC: Yeah, the thing I remember most is my son was two or three at the time. And I think our daughter had just been born. And so my ex-wife and I, we were new parents and, you know, I was represented by David Falk, who also represented Michael, Patrick Ewing, and so many players in the '80s and '90s. So my son, naturally, he was a little basketball nut, and he wore everybody's jerseys. It would be Patrick Ewing one day, it would be Michael Jordan the next day. He was just eating up with it. And I left for the game that night. He didn't go to the game. They didn't go to that game. But when I left the game that afternoon, he was wearing his Bulls gear. DG: What? Did he know that you were playing them? RC: Yeah, but he's two, he's three. So, I go to the game and, you know, we ended up winning, and I came home after the game, everybody's asleep, and I woke him up though. I had like, just come down, sit with me. We'll sit on the couch, find a cartoon or whatever, and I'll eat a little something, and he came down there sleepy. I carried him down there, and we sat on the coach, and it dawned on him at that moment, "Oh yeah, you guys played tonight." And he looked up at me and said, "You played the Bulls. Did you win?" And I said, "We won!" And he started bawling and ran upstairs and got back in his bed. He was upset that we beat Michael's team. (Laughs) DG: He was upset that his dad beat Michael's team. RC: He started to bawl. He said, "Did you win?" And I said, "Yes, we did." And he went, "Ah," and started, ran back upstairs. He was upset. (Laughs) DG: That's amazing. How did that feel for you? RC: Oh, hilarious. Funny. I thought it was awesome. Yeah. Very soon thereafter, we had another regular-season game with them, and I expected a much better effort from them. The ball was thrown up, and as the ball is in the air— Michael and I are standing beside one another— as the ball's in the air, a nd, you know, the centers are jumping. Michael stepped in and elbowed me right in the sternum. And it was one of those shots where it just kind of, "Oh,"\` and it crumpled me for a second, and I went, "Oh, oh." And then I thought, "Oh, okay. It's going to be like that tonight." And it was like that tonight, you know, I played my hardest. He played his hardest. I think he had 35 or 40 in three quarters, didn't play the fourth quarter. They blew us out. I went, you know, 4 for 14 and had 13 points, something like that. But, in that moment, I really, you know, realized that he was seething over us beating them when we beat them, and it had eaten at him. And he was coming back in there to make a statement. And not only did he make a statement that night, We played them; they were the one seed, we were the eight seed, and we played them in the first round of the playoffs, and they beat us like a JV team. DG: What does that tell us about Michael Jordan, the fact that you beat him once and then he elbows you the next time, outplays you the next time, and then destroys you in the playoffs? RC: Yeah, and then as soon as the playoffs are over, you know he comes in the locker room looks for me and, "Hey, good series," all that, but that's the guy he is. He's— playing against him was the greatest, really the greatest thing ever. I do consider him the greatest basketball player ever. Of course, you can argue Wilt, you can argue Kareem, you can argue LeBron. I get it. I get all that. It's a really hard thing, but I will say, I think he's probably pretty much considered the biggest assassin out there. To play against that guy three, four, five times a year for, you know, a decade, fun, just fun. Cause it's, I mean, why not? You're out there, and you've got to remember too. We didn't revere Michael like that. Cause we were in, we were all in the same era. You're not going to hear, you know, most guys just— I get LeBron's a little different. He's played for so long right now. You've got some guys that really come out and revere him publicly that are still playing. But there was a competitive nature, I guess, or a competitive aspect to it back then anyway, where you didn't want to, you know, show a guy too much love or respect that you were playing against. DG: But what did it mean inside? If you weren't showing it on the outside, what did it mean inside on a night like that, night that where you beat him to outplay Michael Jordan? RC: It's gratifying, I'm sure. The part about all of that is, you know, by the time that game happened, I'd played and had so many great experiences and terrible experiences playing the game of basketball from the age of seven, you know, high school and college, and many years in the NBA, that you've learned by that point that— also I'm playing for Pat Riley. Also, this was, well, I think it was the most points I scored that season, but by the numbers, it was my worst defensive game. The way Pat and our staff, and I knew that, I knew that, but my offense was going so well at the time that they couldn't afford to take me out for a minute to make a point. So when people point to that game immediately, I go, yeah, but it was my worst defensive, you know, by the rules we're trying to abide by defensively, I broke down several times that night where I didn't on other nights. So, you're at your job. That's your job. You had a good night. You had a day at work, but we do have Clyde Drexler tomorrow night, or whoever it is, and it's short-lived, and you've just got to realize that that is last time. And you know, the other thing about that, too, is you don't want to come out the next game and have four points that puts more pressure on you. That and that's good. DG: Rex's discipline and that no excuses approach to competing were no accident. His dad coached basketball; no one harder than Rex, running him through drill after drill. The rigidity didn't always create the warmest of memories. \[MUSIC\] DG: Rex, I know you've been honest and transparent about some complicated parts of your relationship with your dad. Where was that kind of toughness not helpful? RC: Well, my dad was a basketball coach. He didn't coach me, though. He was a coach much like Bobby Knight. Very hard and cussed a lot, but a great coach. You know, when I look at it now, even though my dad was tough on me at times, I'm not sure I learned that much with my son. My son was a very good high school player. And I like, I would catch myself. Now, I also wasn't my best mentally during that time. I had painkillers and stuff like that. I had a real problem for 14 or 15 years with opioids. But my dad, he didn't see me play a lot in high school because he coached his own team. And they played most nights when we played. He coached Division 2, Kentucky Westland, and they're a powerhouse in Division 2. And they got great players. They've got a lot of Division 1 transfers. But, so he didn't get to see me play much. My mom saw every game, and my dad's brother saw every game, older brother, which just meant the world to me. But my dad didn't see me playing much. He wasn't quick to give a compliment. That was not really in his DNA. After a good game, "Way to go, hotshot." At that point, I learned that that was like him hugging me and kissing me. But most of the time it was, "Were you scared out there?" Or yeah, like really kind of cutting type stuff. There was one night I was a junior in high school, looking back, I was the best player in the state at this point in our state. We played a team called Butler County, which was 45 minutes away, and my dad saw the game. And I probably had 40 points and 20 rebounds, 10 blocks and, you know, just gaudy numbers. And we won. We won a game by like 15 points that we should have won by 30, though. But on the way home, you know, on the bus, I'm going, "Oh, well, he's going to have to, you know, love me up a little tonight." And that's what I'm thinking anyway. And I walked in the door and he used to smoke cigarettes and he's sitting there, I walked into the door. And he's sitting there watching the TV with a cigarette, and a Coke, and for sure, like a sandwich my mom has made him. And I walked in the door, he didn't even look at me. Nothing. And it's funny when I think about it now, but he didn't look at and I walked back behind his chair into the kitchen, where my mom was, and I said, is he like, "Is something wrong with him?" And she went, "I don't know. I don't know." I walk back in and I sat on the couch, like in his line of vision and nothing, didn't say a \[EXPLETIVE\] word. And I said, "Hey, well, what'd you think tonight?" And he said, "Oh, you wanna know what I think?" And he stood up, and he said, "I wanna know when you're gonna take a \[EXPLETIVE\] charge. Are you ever gonna take a charge?" And he says, "Here's how you do it." He started running into me, and I'm running into him. And my mom came in and said, "Break it up in here. Hey, hey, hey." And I just went up to my room, right? And so 30 minutes later, I guess, my mom comes up, and she comes in my room, and she sits on my bed, and like puts her arm around me and says, "I'm sorry, honey." I said, "Stop mom. If he doesn't tell me, how am I going to know?" And I took up for it. (Laughs) DG: Wow, stuck up for him even after that. RC: Yeah, but he was right. He wasn't; it probably wasn't the right time, but he was right. Like I didn't, I knew how to play as an athletic player. I didn't take— also, it's high school. I'm trying to not foul people. If I foul out, we're gonna lose. So it was different. He was trying to let me know, really. He was just trying to keep me humble and let me know that you're going to go to college. You're gonna have to take charges and dive on the floor for loose balls and all the things, right? And it was the right message, it just wasn't given at the right time, probably, or maybe it was. It worked out, you know. DG: I mean, it worked out. You were like a standout legendary star when you played for Kentucky, I mean, first time All-SEC, SEC tournament MVP, you scored over 1,000 points. As you look back on that, like, did you like all the attention being a college star at one of the biggest basketball programs in the country? RC: I think it was a really confusing time. I was a pretty socially introverted, not around my friends. My friends would all consider me an extrovert, but around people I didn't know extremely, extremely guarded. And there was a part of me, I think, being so young, I was 18, 17, 18, my freshman year at Kentucky, and kind of exploded onto the national picture at that age. I didn't really understand much of it. I did the best I could. I think I convinced myself that I liked it. It was kind of, what else was I gonna do? But it was kind of overwhelming. DG: During his time at Kentucky, Rex started to feel the pressure of being a star at the best basketball program in the country. And he began to show signs of depression. Not only did he feel pressure from himself, but school officials and boosters sat him down and tried to tell him how to live his life, including who he could date. \[MUSIC\] DG: Well, I just think about you talking about how kind of the university wanted to shape you into, you know, college student athlete. RC: There's another aspect of that that I'll go ahead and share. My first girlfriend is a girl named Shawn Higgs and she's Black. We're from the same hometown, and her brother is my best friend, was one of my best friends growing up. And we just loved each other to death. People did not like that in Kentucky and... DG: That you were dating a black woman? RC: Yes, I say, girl, we were 16, you know. So, but then Shawn went to, she went to school at Kentucky, and we just assumed that— and I was kind of given assurances that that was not gonna be an issue. So I got to school, and we'd go to class together the first day, and we had one class together. And that afternoon, I was called in the coach's office and told that, "Hey, look, you know, we don't care what's going on, but some people may, and you might need to be discreet about that," which meant hide it. And so, right away, I'm— I think that probably too led to some of my situational depression and stuff like that. I was, that was a very rough. It was not only hurtful to me and still is hurtful. It was devastating to Shawn, and we're still great friends and everything. However, it was a— I was there for two years and that was the point of contention for two years. And I was a depressed person that wasn't at that point — I did have a panic attack early in the year, shortly thereafter. And again, please understand, things could not have been going better on the floor. But shortly after, I had maybe the second meeting with coaches, and now there's someone from, like, they can tell it's a booster or maybe someone in the school administration that's in there saying, "Hey, look, you know, somebody saw you guys out and"... Oh my god, you gotta be kidding me. DG: Yeah, Rex was not okay with this kind of scrutiny and policing in his personal life. And as a kid in college, he didn't have the tools to express his frustration or process that anger. Eventually, it all boiled over in a way he couldn't control. RC: So this is the '86 or yeah, 1986, I guess. I woke up one morning and like my arms were like stuck to my, I felt like they were stuck to my chest. Like if I let my arms down, I was, I didn't know what was going on. I felt very wrong as the only way to explain it. My teammate and my best friend, Reggie Hansen, was my roommate. And I said, "Reg, I don't feel right. You need to go get the coaches. I think I need to go to the hospital." And he was like, "What's wrong?" And I couldn't explain it. I didn't know any— I didn't know. I was scared, though. And they came to get me immediately and were gonna take me to the hospital. And I guess they thought wiser heads prevailed to not take me to the hospital because if they took me to the hospital, people were gonna know. And then they were gonna ask questions about whatever that was. Now, again, I didn't know what was happening. And I think they probably did, but they ended up taking me to one of the UK boosters, who I know and love very much so, and a place where Shawn and I could go and hang out. They took me to get Shawn and then they took me to this booster's house. Don Johnson is his name, great guy. One of my favorite people. And I was there for two days, and Don and his wife took care of me. And I slowly, but surely— I didn't go to practice for two days. \[MUSIC\] RC: Nobody was writing about it. It was like a big secret. And I woke up like the third day, and I felt just fine. For people who don't really realize that, you know, hey, I got a lot of other life to live. I didn't think that way. I was right there in the moment playing basketball, and you can lose your— I'm not even sure I ever had an identity before I was a basketball player. So there was just a lot of maneuvering to do emotionally and psychologically that I'm not sure I handled the best, but I handled it the best I could. DG: Rex Chapman did handle the pressure of being a college star the best he could, but once he got to the NBA, things in his life started to take a turn. Coming up, we'll have more from our conversation with Rex Chapman. Welcome back to Sports in America, and let's get right back to our conversation with Rex Chapman. I appreciate, and I think so many people in the world appreciate how open you've been to talking about your story. I mean, you just, your career in the NBA, you were riddled with injuries and, and had surgeries and got prescribed a lot of medication and developed an addiction. You know, we could talk about this for three hours, I'm sure. Is there a low point that you can point to in your struggles with addiction that might sort of give us a window into you and, and help us learn something? \[MUSIC\] RC: Uh, probably several, but I, you know, I wasn't a drinker, a smoker, a partier when I played. I drank a beer from time to time, and I'd go out with a teammate if we had two nights off and if we didn't drink too many beers. I'd get drunk. From time-to-time, but I didn't party like most people think professional athletes party. I didn't... DG: You weren't on South Beach like night before games all the time, like drinking it up. RC: But I for sure knew that I was going home. So, being 18 months out of the NBA, retired, never been in trouble in my life. Not a thing, not ever really had an issue, bad issue anyway. I find myself in rehab, you know, where I've checked into rehab. Danny Ainge of the Celtics forever, and one of my good friends came to me and said, "You've got to go, you've gotta go away. You gotta go to rehab. You're ruining your life, your family's life, everything." And I went because it was Danny. I respect Danny so much, so much. DG: Everyone talks about someone needing that someone who you trust to say like "It's time." RC: Yeah, and it was time. I went there, when I checked into rehab, I was taking probably 40 Vicodin a day and maybe 10 Oxycontin a day, just eating them, chewing them up to get them in my bloodstream faster. So, but I got out of rehab and, you know, I was fine until I needed another surgery, and then I'd be back on Vicodin, and this went on for 14, 15 years. But during that time, I was gambling, horse racing. And now I've played horses, I started playing horses when I was at Kentucky. So there you go. Well, really, before that, with my dad, my dad gambled too. So a lot of stuff. I always played the horses, my whole life. I'm not even sure I considered it gambling. (Laughs) What an idiot. So when I retired, that's what I did. I played horses and every day I played golf, but I played horse. And, you know, when you go to the track with $10 grand in your pocket every day, at least, you're gonna run out of money. DG: Rex's earnings on the court created this kind of perfect storm to feed his addictive behaviors. Gambling and substance abuse went hand in hand and led to mindless shoplifting. In 2015, 15 years out of the league, he was convicted of felony theft charges. Rex was hardly aware of his actions, let alone their consequences. \[MUSIC\] RC: I made a lot of money, I probably made $40 million playing basketball, contracts and endorsements, and stuff like that, and my wife was finally fed up in 2012. We got divorced, and for a couple of years, I just wandered, really. I was taking more pain medication, but we were sharing our younger kids, and I was trying to do the best I could, and she and I, my ex-wife, weren't on good terms, and I ran out of money. And I guess I saw myself doing this, and I don't, a lot of this is a blur, but apparently I was stealing from the Apple Store. DG: I know you were convicted of that, but you've talked about not even remembering it, yeah. RC: It's just blurry. A lot of stuff is blurry from back then, but apparently I had, you know, gone in there and shoplifted and for sure was pawning it to have money so I could probably, A, continue to buy my medication every month, my opioids, and then B, to gamble. Arrested and I was so lost I didn't even know what I was being arrested for. Like, what are you doing? You're just a zombie, really. Obviously, a low point, and I'm in jail. I'm in jail, and I don't know anybody's phone numbers. You know, you used to know everybody's phone numbers by heart. The only person's number I knew was my ex-wife, and she and I hadn't spoken in some time, even though we were sharing the kids. And I called, she answered, and she was so supportive, and "What do you need?" and "What can I do?" "The kids are fine." I'll never forget it. It was just such beautiful compassion and a, just a horrible moment, what leadership she showed. It makes me want to cry thinking about it. Yeah. So I said, "You need to get in touch with Gus." Gus is a guy that was going to certainly get me an attorney. And, yeah, I had an attorney, but now I've got all kinds of issues. I've got legal issues. A couple of buddies convinced me to go to rehab in Kentucky. My sister as well. And, I went to rehab in Kentucky, and I went into a place called The Brook, where one of my college roommates, Paul Andrews, was the CFO. And he was there with me. You know, he'd check in with me every day, and they really walked me through rehab. And once I got off the pain medicine. Well, I had an issue with my stomach, with ulcers that we never knew about until I got off those opioids at that time. I had to go to the hospital because my stomach was hurting so bad. They said, well, yeah, come to find out, all the time that I felt like I would get off opioids, I'd feel like I was having withdrawal. DG: It's actually an ulcer, too, wow. RC: Opioids cause ulcers and mask their pain. DG: Oh God. RC: How \[EXPLETIVE\] up as that. And if a doctor maybe had checked this years and years ago, maybe I could have avoided it. But, so once they gave me ulcer medication, I've never had anything else I feel like was a craving, which is \[EXPLETIVE\] great. DG: How are you doing today? RC: Great. I'm doing great. You know, I use medical marijuana. Actually, since I found that and that's been— I got out of rehab, and I didn't do anything for a year. Nothing. That was really tough emotionally. Also, I just needed to know that I could do that. But I was starting to sense more depression and whatnot, and since I found medical marijuana, my life has changed. It's the greatest thing ever for me. And I know it is for some other opioid addicts. It's not for everyone, but it's done wonders for me socially as well, like just doing these interviews. DG: In recent years, Rex has become something of a high-level curator of the internet, particularly through his Twitter account, where he has over a million followers. He'll find and share feel-good videos of dog shenanigans, of neighbors showing each other humanity, or other positive content that makes people smile. It's helped him make peace with the past. \[MUSIC\] DG: It's so interesting. You've had such a journey. I mean, college stardom in Kentucky and what you've been through and in the NBA and your struggles. And what's so interesting, though, is if you're a really young person who's you know, spends a lot of time like on social media, you might just know Rex Chapman as like a star on social media. And I just like I want to thank you personally because like I remember during COVID and being isolated and you would, you know, retweet these you know videos of someone serenading you know other residents and in lockdown and in Florence, and I don't know. Like, I remember one recently, like you reposted, you know, the anniversary of "Take On Me," the A-ha song, and I'm like dancing on my phone. Like what— you've become famous for this, like making us all feel good. What led to that? And what does that feel like? RC: It doesn't make us all feel good. It makes liberals feel good, DG: Okay, that's fair. You do add some politics in there. Yes, that's true. RC: But yeah, I don't know. I— a few years ago, I don't know if you know, Grant Williams played at Tennessee, and this was about five years ago, I guess? He was coming out of college. You know, I played at Kentucky. I played in the NBA. I was doing Kentucky basketball radio at the time. But I was at the Combine in Chicago, the NBA Combine, and Grant was one of the guys there. And, you know, I had my credential on, one of the scouts, and you know, NBAers looking on, and Grant walks in on the first day out on the court, and he just bumped right into me, and he said, "Rex Chapman." I said, "Yeah." He said, "The Twitter guy!" DG: (Laughs) He's a basketball player. RC: Yeah, he's an NBA player. DG: How does that feel? Are you okay with that? RC: Well, I am because it's funny as \[EXPLETIVE\]. But also it's—, and it's honest. And at 20 years old, some 50-year-old guy that I'd never seen play before. Why would you know him? If you take offense at that, that's funny. DG: Yeah. But I mean, do you want to be remembered as an athlete or as a beloved outspoken activist on social media? RC: To be completely honest here, I prefer to be known as anything, any of those, either of those, something other than drug addict felon. So there you have it. I really am just fortunate and thankful every single day that I don't have what I feel was a jonesing for painkillers. Just waking up every day knowing I don't have to deal with a drug dealer or the pharmacy or a doctor. It was just a living hell, and I'm so happy to be removed from it. DG: I'm really happy that you've made it to that place. RC: Thank you, appreciate it. DG: What do you get out of posting these videos that really touch so many of us? What is that experience for you? RC: I posted something earlier today, it was a little girl, four, at her Christmas recital, and she's desperately looking around for her parents. Everybody, all her friends are waving at their parents, and she can't find them, and she is like, she's fretting, and she sees them, and she just can't believe they're there, and she's so happy, and then she started crying and wiping tears and waving again, and she's just so happy. That \[EXPLETIVE\] heartens me. I remember being a kid, and you know wanting to be seen and recognized by your parents, and I have kids, and they're all in their 20s now, and I picture every one of them, they're doing exactly the same thing, and that's something I know we all share. I am still— I fight depression all the time. I've learned to sort of manage it at this point, but that \[EXPLETIVE\] helps get me through the day. So if somebody, if it helps somebody else, great, but I'm probably doing it more for me than others. DG: Rex Chapman, thank you so much. It's really, it's been an honor and pleasure hanging out with you. RC: Thanks, man, I appreciate it. \[MUSIC\] Next time, on Sports in America… ENES KANTER FREEDOM: They’re like, athletes should stay away from politics. I’m like, this is not politics. This is human rights. DG: Enes Kanter Freedom immigrated to the United States to play in the NBA. And during his 11 seasons in the league, he never forgot the people who were suffering in his home country. Even when speaking out meant serious consequences for himself. EKF: The Turkish government revoked my passport. They put my name on Interpol list. So in their eyes, I'm now an international criminal. DG: And his family. EKF: Literally, they put him in jail because of I was outspoken that was the reason that he was in jail DG: Enes Kanter's wild journey to the NBA. That’s next time, on Sports in America. This is Sports in America, I'm David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our theme music is composed by Emma Munger. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts. And we also want to hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That's sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks everybody, and we'll see you next time for Sports in America.