Latest / Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD / 318: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: From Hopeless Diagnosis to Defying All Odds with Aaron Hartman

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318: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: From Hopeless Diagnosis to Defying All Odds with Aaron Hartman · Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD

• 0:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go to podcast for the most cutting edge insights integrative and functional medicine.
• 0:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I'm your host, Dr. Jill and with each episode we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation.
• 0:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Join me as I interview medical experts, thought leaders and innovators of all types, helping you on your way to optimal performance and longevity and just hope and healing.
• 0:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Today we have an incredible insightful journey and story of Dr. Aaron Hartman.
• 0:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And as helped his daughter heal from a diagnosis that was set for unexplainable miracles, you're going to hear all kinds of things that he learned in the process defying the odds of what she was told that she would not thrive being born to a meth addicted mother.
• 0:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I promise you're going to be inspired by his story, so stay tuned and I'll introduce him in just a moment.
• 0:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: In the meantime, just a reminder, if you have not yet bought a copy of Unexpected, you can get that wherever books are sold old or go to readunexpected.com you can also get products and services special curated to mast cell activation, gut disorders or any sort of thing you're dealing with.
• 1:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You can find those all@doctor Jill health.com and if you're a first time purchaser, you can get a 15 off discount by just clicking on the pop up there and getting that discount coupon.
• 1:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay, let's get to our show and let me introduce our guest, Dr. Aaron Hartman.
• 1:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: His path to functional medicine began when he his wife adopted their daughter who has cerebral palsy and severe dietary challenges.
• 1:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: After frustrating experiences with specialists, he realized conventional care did not have all the answers.
• 1:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Guided by his wife, they turned to functional medicine and their child's health improved.
• 1:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: This led him to shift from family practice to a new approach.
• 1:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Today helps patient uncover the keys of lifestyle and health factors to support healing and has become a trusted physician for complex care cases in central Virginia.
• 1:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: He is Contributed to over 70 clinical studies, founded the research center in Virginia and serves assistant Clinical professor at VCU School of Medicine.
• 2:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: He established Richmond Integrative and functional medicine in 2016.
• 2:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Let's join Dr. Dr. Aaron Hartman for a great episode on an inspiring journey of overcoming illness.
• 2:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Dr. Hartman, it's great to see you again.
• 2:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We first met in Switzerland at an incredible retreat where I met just some of the most beautiful people and then we've maintained a friendship and you know, go in and out of life.
• 2:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: There's lots of stuff happening.
• 2:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But it's so good to talk to you again and today we're going to highlight a story that I have not heard the whole extent of.
• 2:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I know that our listeners are going to be really interested and hopefully inspired and encouraged by what you're going to tell us today.
• 2:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Before we jump into that story, I want to just give a little background on you.
• 2:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: How did you get into medicine?
• 2:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: How did you decide to go in this direction of your career where you practicing?
• 2:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Just a little background on you and the whole diet into our title, which is actually from Hopeless Diagnosis to Define all odds.
• 3:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Thanks a lot for inviting me on the show just to share the story because it's a really, I mean, it's changed my entire life and family.
• 3:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But what kind of got me down this pathway?
• 3:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, I, you know, similar to you, similar academic career, went to medical school.
• 3:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I was going down the typical path, got in the military, got all the bells and whistles, did all the typical academic things you'd expect at this stage in my career.
• 3:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I'm a assistant clinical professor of medicine at the Medical College of Virginia.
• 3:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But what really.
• 3:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And what got me to medicine, I mean, I just kind of, to be honest with you, was I went to my family doctor with my mom and he talked to her for a bit and listened to her heart and lungs and chat and give her some pills.
• 3:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I literally was like, I can do that.
• 3:42
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so when I was young, I'm like, I'll be a doctor when I grow up and I'll do this.
• 3:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And this was just one of those little things that kind of gets imprinted in you and you're like, you know, it wasn't anything like, you know, I didn't feel, obviously medicine's a calling and working with people's a calling.
• 3:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But it didn't start that way for me.
• 3:57
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Just started kind of like, I'm going this direction.
• 4:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And for a while I wanted to actually be a missionary doctor overseas.
• 4:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I thought I was going to be in a hospital and actually did.
• 4:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I've done a lot of stuff in Central and South American out of the way hospitals.
• 4:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But really what really changed my trajectory was when I met my daughter Anna in 2006.
• 4:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you've met Becky, you met Becky in Switzerland, and she's a pediatric occupational therapist.
• 4:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And at that point in time, her specialty was kids with special needs.
• 4:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 4:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And Anna was one of her patients whose foster home was closing down.
• 4:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So she was like, hey, would you consider bringing this little girl into our home?
• 4:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I was like, sure.
• 4:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, my, you know, me being a guy, me being me, you know, and my Wife knows what she had, you know, what she had to let me think, you know, But I was like, can we have.
• 4:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Things don't work out.
• 4:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Can we.
• 4:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Can we give her back?
• 4:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And my wife was like, sure.
• 4:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, yes, dear.
• 4:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, whatever.
• 4:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She knew I was going to fall in love with my daughter.
• 4:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, she knew.
• 4:48
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So she just kind of, you know, whatever.
• 4:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Sure, honey.
• 4:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know.
• 4:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And when you met her, she was.
• 4:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: About 14 months old.
• 4:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay.
• 4:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And brought her to her home.
• 4:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, you know, she was failed to thrive, which for your audience, that just means the baby's.
• 5:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The child's less than fifth percentile.
• 5:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, you know, big parts feeding.
• 5:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So we did the best we could and goes back to the GI Follow up.
• 5:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And we're foster parents at this point in time, and the GI doctor is like, well, she's still a failure to thrive.
• 5:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So the next thing we do for all of these kids, standard of care is we put a feeding tube into them, which means cutting a hole into the stomach so you can pour formula into them and fatten them up.
• 5:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And a little backstory on Anna.
• 5:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Her birth mother did crystal meth throughout the entire pregnancy.
• 5:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She had a stroke before she was born.
• 5:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The corpus callosum, which is the thing that connects the right and left side of your brain, wasn't formed.
• 5:37
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So her prognosis was she was never supposed to walk, talk, or crawl.
• 5:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So it was pretty.
• 5:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was pretty dire.
• 5:42
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so putting a tube in was just what you typically do for these kids.
• 5:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And my wife and I had higher hopes for her.
• 5:48
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We're like, no, she's.
• 5:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's.
• 5:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: My wife told me everything's gonna be okay, whatever that means, you know, be the best version of her.
• 5:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so we opted out of the tube feet because that would affect speech development, that affect crawling.
• 6:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, chewing.
• 6:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Swallowing is so super critical for just learning how to talk.
• 6:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And.
• 6:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And because we refused to do that, we reported child protective services for medical neglect because we refused to literally put a hole in my daughter's stomach and pour sugar water.
• 6:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We.
• 6:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We wanted to give her real food.
• 6:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So we got reported to cps.
• 6:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 6:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And that was.
• 6:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was kind of interesting in the.
• 6:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Beginning because here you are trying to make a great decision, and I totally get what you're doing.
• 6:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then you have to deal with cbs.
• 6:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, we're kind of dealing with that right now with some things we're going through with her moving out of the house, but.
• 6:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Because she's moving out of the house this year.
• 6:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Spoiler alert.
• 6:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But.
• 6:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And.
• 6:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But, you know, so went through that and that was like my first aha moment.
• 6:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You've had these before where like the system doesn't like it when you say no.
• 6:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 6:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You're like, I don't want to do that.
• 6:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And the response is, oh yeah, we'll show you.
• 6:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so just navigated that.
• 6:49
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, my wife actually knew.
• 6:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Then the nurse that actually came out to investigate us, she act.
• 6:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They shared patients together.
• 6:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right?
• 6:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yes.
• 6:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I was a medical doctor.
• 6:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 6:57
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They kind of were like, okay, I'm investigating the Hartman's, like, yeah, what's the deal here?
• 7:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So you know, it went away and in six months.
• 7:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But this is the major.
• 7:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That was the first inflection point.
• 7:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like the system doesn't like it when you say no.
• 7:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The second inflection point was six months later when Becky found a growth chart.
• 7:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There actually is a growth chart for kids with cerebral palsy, which is her official diagnosis.
• 7:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 7:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And she was.
• 7:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She was 50 percentile.
• 7:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She was normal.
• 7:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The specialist didn't know.
• 7:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The specialist used a normal typical developmental growth chart.
• 7:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This is what we usually do for usual kids, but you're one small.
• 7:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We're going to do surgical procedure.
• 7:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And they had no idea.
• 7:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The expert didn't know that there's a special growth chart for kids with cerebral palsy.
• 7:38
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And that was when I felt this weight literally fall on my shoulders because it was like, can't trust the specialists.
• 7:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, they don't.
• 7:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like when you push back.
• 7:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was like my responsibility to figure out what to do for our daughter.
• 7:49
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so that led to me getting up at 4 o' clock in the morning, reading research articles about whatever came across my desk.
• 7:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, of course back then started with autism because that was the.
• 7:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The big thing back then.
• 8:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And just that's led me down multiple trails and tracks today.
• 8:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, again, she's actually a concert tonight for her.
• 8:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's involved in thing called Capernaum.
• 8:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 8:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She has all of her family and people driving down for her to perform tonight.
• 8:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 8:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So exciting that today's the day.
• 8:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 8:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So she's.
• 8:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 8:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So she's beaten every single solitary odd.
• 8:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But it's not because we did what the system told us to do.
• 8:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We.
• 8:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's because we literally did nothing the system told us to do.
• 8:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 8:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And you know, the system is set up to just in some ways kind of entrap because it's like this is standard of care and you and I as physicians come against that all the time.
• 8:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And like, okay, this is a standard, but the standard is just not enough sometimes.
• 8:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And so when you go above and beyond and try to look for root cause and that.
• 8:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So where.
• 8:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So for your first thing was a CPS and putting a hole in your child's stomach and deciding, no, we're actually going to try to feed her.
• 8:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I'm guessing what that required was a lot more effort and energy on your wife and your part versus just, you know, letting the tubes be her thing.
• 9:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like, it wasn't an easy route.
• 9:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 9:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It was actually the hardest thing you could choose.
• 9:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And yet with that.
• 9:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So when did you start to see that turn and was that within that time when you found that new growth chart for her cerebral palsy?
• 9:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's been, you know, kids with cerebral palsy usually peak out development about six to seven years of age.
• 9:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so with her, it's always been like, we do one thing, we get to like a plateau, what's the next thing?
• 9:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We get to new plateau, what's the next thing?
• 9:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And we've been doing this for, at this stage, 18 years.
• 9:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so it's not been like, you know, oh, you know, I did this one thing and the sky opens up and.
• 9:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 9:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The pots and dysautonomia go away and the chronic lime's gone.
• 9:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's, it wasn't like that's been a long kind of everything's been hard.
• 9:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 9:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But, you know, cutting my teeth with my daughter, my most difficult patient's been my daughter.
• 9:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But it's kind of prepped me for my practice where now we get a lot of complicated patients from around, around the country coming to see us who've been to multiple places and multiple doctors and told nothing's wrong with them, they can't be helped, or it's all in their head.
• 9:57
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They come to us and we just put the pieces together.
• 10:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But it's.
• 10:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The entire process has been hard.
• 10:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It hasn't been easy.
• 10:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But to your point, you know, if you want to see outcomes that no one else is seeing.
• 10:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 10:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You have to be willing to do things that no one else is doing.
• 10:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, you know, to state your point of standard of care, I kind of look at standard care.
• 10:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like the, it's the entry, it's the mezzanine.
• 10:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's the lower.
• 10:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like, it's like, congratulations, you graduated medical school, you finish your residency, insurance will now pay for your bills, you're board certified.
• 10:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, like that's not supposed to be the game of the goal.
• 10:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like the entry point, 20 years from now, you should be practicing way above that standard, not still at it.
• 10:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That's where I think people don't realize the standard of care is not the goal, it's the entry point.
• 10:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 10:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Minimum acceptable.
• 10:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 10:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Minimum acceptable of what we do.
• 10:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: At least do at least this.
• 10:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: At least that.
• 10:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You got.
• 10:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: At least do this.
• 10:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 10:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And it's also typically 20 years behind the research.
• 10:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So what you and I often do is we're looking at the data coming out and starting to implement it early with safety and informed consent, especially something that we know is very benign, even if it's not yet the standard of care, because we know that we don't want to wait 20 or 30 years for that to become correct.
• 11:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, well, there's so many things we do, like, you know, hyperbaric oxygen, for example, like, that's been around since the 1600s.
• 11:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 11:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, it's FDA approved for a lot of different things.
• 11:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, one of the things I did was get certified in hyperbaric medicine as part of my journey.
• 11:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I didn't know that.
• 11:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 11:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, it's like I've got, you know, you learn something, then you have to learn deep dive and.
• 11:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But you realize, basically.
• 11:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And this has been around forever.
• 11:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I just came across neural therapy this past year at the A4M conference.
• 11:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I'm like, wait a second.
• 11:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This phrase was termed in 1925.
• 11:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 11:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I'm just learning about it, like now.
• 11:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's so many things that have been around forever that have really amazing outcomes that just because they're from another country or another time or whatever, why aren't we using these relatively safe.
• 11:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Many times safer than the standard of care procedures or things.
• 11:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 11:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I found that with methylene blue, when I look back to 1800s, like the original antibiotic.
• 12:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then I was like, oh, I started looking at studies and I saw septic shock and cardiogenic shock and like, oh, this is oppressor.
• 12:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And like all these different things around methylene blue.
• 12:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then I started using it.
• 12:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Pots, Dysautonomia, mitochondrial dysfunction.
• 12:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And you know the story there, but funny because it's this old industrial dye that actually has a profound effect on the mitochondria.
• 12:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's quite safe, which is crazy for an industrial dye.
• 12:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I sort of.
• 12:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And again, it's an old, old therapy that's had, like, there's a lot of literature on safety.
• 12:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 12:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Certainly not because there's not a financial incentive.
• 12:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's not a traditional pharmaceutical that we, you Know, see a lot, but.
• 12:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And those are a lot of things out there.
• 12:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Now, one thing I want to go back for you because you and I share a little bit of a faith perspective.
• 12:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Maybe not a little bit of a lot of birth, but.
• 12:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I wonder how, like, I see so much of my journey with illness and with my patients as like, God's like, okay, I want you to learn this now, and I'm going to give you something really hard in your own life or in the life of a patient.
• 12:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And it's through that struggle, through that time after time, coming up against something that was really hard in your daughter's life, that I feel like the divine gives us these deep lessons that go on to help hundreds, if not thousands of other patients, because then we have a new set of knowledge.
• 13:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Do you want to talk a little bit about how that might have played into your story with your daughter?
• 13:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because that's so powerful of how the.
• 13:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Reason we even adopted our daughter because of our faith.
• 13:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, part of, like, the.
• 13:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Found in my understanding of.
• 13:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Of my faith is that the foundational thing is care of the widow, orphan, and stranger.
• 13:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So it's care of those who, you know, people without a home, without a country, without a family.
• 13:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so when my daughter's, you know, her foster home was coming, it was closing down.
• 13:37
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like, do I really believe the things I say believe?
• 13:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so for me, it was more like, okay, the store's opening up.
• 13:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I say, I believe these tenants.
• 13:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Am I willing to actually live them out?
• 13:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So I was like, sure.
• 13:48
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And feels very mechanical.
• 13:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 13:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I was also actually going to seminary at the same time a lot of this stuff was happening and so brought him to our home.
• 13:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And one of the interesting things I learned in seminary, where they talk about, you know, true wisdom and knowledge is holistic, is head, heart, hands.
• 14:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 14:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Which sounds.
• 14:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This will resonate with a lot of holistic, integrative people.
• 14:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so in medical school, you do all the head stuff, and I'd done all the head stuff.
• 14:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The hand stuff is actually physically doing it, getting into it.
• 14:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so I actually took the act of bringing her in my house, and I fell in love with her.
• 14:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was really interesting to see, like, how that drive changed the way I looked at all my patients.
• 14:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I started to say this mantra.
• 14:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Going to work every morning to pray, to see what can't be seen, hear what can't be heard.
• 14:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I'm diagnosed.
• 14:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We can't be diagnosed.
• 14:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's really bizarre.
• 14:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Interesting, maybe.
• 14:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Interesting.
• 14:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Maybe supernatural is a way to Say it.
• 14:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I'll find some random article, I'll learn some new fact, I'll come across a new therapy literally weeks before a patient comes in.
• 14:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I need to know those things.
• 14:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And this happens all the time.
• 14:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it actually drives me, like it kind of is like a fire.
• 14:48
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It came up, became a fire in my belly.
• 14:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, like these people are going these, all these places, they don't have hope.
• 14:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's like literally my task, my burden to like be that person who's studying, learning, but at the same time listening to their stories.
• 15:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like becoming emotionally involved to a certain degree.
• 15:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Not too much, of course, but it's interesting how having a holistic understanding and knowledge, it blows up your comprehension, but also helps you connect dots that you would have not connected otherwise.
• 15:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Other people have seen.
• 15:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, because they're not looking at the way you're looking at.
• 15:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: All of a sudden they see that those are random, non consequential things.
• 15:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They're not related.
• 15:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, how many times have you had someone say, my doctor, whoever said those things, you know, my blood pressure and my fast heart rate, my anxiety and my gut issues and my hypermobile joints are unrelated.
• 15:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you're like, they're absolutely, completely related.
• 15:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Hey guys, just a quick break to remind you if you have not yet got a copy of my book, Unexpected Finding Resilience through Functional Medicine, Science and Faith.
• 15:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I hope you pick up a copy of Dr. Hartman's book as we're discussing today and grab a copy of my book as well.
• 15:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: They're both inspirational journeys to help you on your way and whatever you're struggling with.
• 15:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I think both copies of these books will be encouraging to you or someone you know who love or someone you love who is struggling with complex chronic illness.
• 16:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You can get my book on Audible or any audio platform.
• 16:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So if you prefer to listen while you walk or do your thing driving in the car, I'm always listening to audiobooks.
• 16:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Check it out on Audible or wherever audiobooks are sold.
• 16:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay, let's get back to the show with Dr. Aaron Hartman.
• 16:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I love that framework and you said it so eloquently.
• 16:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And what I've seen is this pattern recognition system, which is kind of given to us by the divine, is when we open our heart and mind to say what else is possible and do I need like your prayer that you had there was so eloquent because what it really is just opening your heart and mind to observing and seeing what we might have otherwise not seen.
• 16:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And when we do that, we start to get these Clues.
• 16:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then over time, with experience, we see patterns.
• 16:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 16:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I will tell you, every great doctor I've ever interviewed on the show that curiosity and humility are, like, at the core of, like, okay, God, help me with what I don't yet know and give me the wisdom, because I don't.
• 17:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I've seen tons of cases where it's a new diagnosis I've never seen before or an unusual situation where the dots don't all connect.
• 17:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But when I come with humility and curiosity, I find, like, the wisdom comes.
• 17:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I was like, I don't know where this came from, but let's go in this direction, and then we prove it with the science, and it's not so.
• 17:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I see that in your story, too, because I think that powerful ability to come with curiosity.
• 17:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I wonder.
• 17:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Now let's go back to your daughter, because you kept, I'm sure, hitting things of like, oh, I'm never quite seeing this.
• 17:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What do I do next?
• 17:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Can you give us some examples in as she's growing up of where you hit, like, what do we do next?
• 17:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And how that maybe curiosity helped fuel your ability to.
• 17:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: To allow her to thrive?
• 17:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, you know, first of all, it's a kid with a neurological issue.
• 17:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, you know, what's the literature on a.
• 17:48
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And her diagnosis was actually.
• 17:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: People debated whether it was it spastic quadriplegia or was she a bihemi.
• 17:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Which that only means things to, like, you know, pediatric OTs and orthopedic surgeons.
• 17:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So CP was the basic diagnosis.
• 18:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But, like, what's the literature on that for crystal meth exposure and all the chemicals in crystal meth and then the corpus callosum not forming and then having no pigment there, she had no pigment.
• 18:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Her eyes, she was never supposed to be able to see.
• 18:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, she actually saw the stars for the first time, by the way, like a month ago.
• 18:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So.
• 18:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Which is really awesome.
• 18:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow, that's.
• 18:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I know.
• 18:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, we started doing.
• 18:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We started doing IV lipid therapy and phenyl butyrate with her probably two, three months ago, because you hit a wall and you do something new now that she's actually now able to see the distance screen.
• 18:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Her vision's 2080 now, five years ago, 2200.
• 18:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So she continues to beat all the odds.
• 18:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But the first thing was that whole.
• 18:38
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The chemical stuff.
• 18:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so it's like, what's the closest thing that's even remotely close?
• 18:42
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I was like, well, autism, I guess.
• 18:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So I kind of went down this autism route and found some Dr. Amy Asco's work, which is looking at nutrigenetic testing.
• 18:49
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 18:49
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So went down the whole pathway of doing 23andMe and getting the 60 pages and handwriting down all the snip connections and realizing you have this, this typo in your genes.
• 18:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: May I should push these nutrients in.
• 19:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Oh, okay.
• 19:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's okay.
• 19:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's doing a little better.
• 19:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's got a little less tone.
• 19:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Okay.
• 19:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's gaining some weight.
• 19:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Cool.
• 19:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Then you hit a plateau.
• 19:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, what's the next thing?
• 19:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Well, okay, well, start with, just real quick.
• 19:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Was that like some maybe methylation, methylated bees initially or what were the first few things that you started to see some improvement in?
• 19:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, she has, you know, she had, you know, some MTHFR as well, some MTRR mutations and some VDR tack and fork, which are the vitamin D receptor ones.
• 19:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And.
• 19:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And the bcom, your body doesn't take carotenoids and make it to vitamin A or retinol.
• 19:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So.
• 19:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And those are pretty common ones.
• 19:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But also she had a lot of amino acid deficiencies, and her fatty acids were, like, totally whacked out.
• 19:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so it's like, okay, again, nutritional.
• 19:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Using food and nutrients like a drug.
• 19:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 19:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so, and for her thing was never like, we did one thing, and one day she started talking or whatever.
• 19:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was just all like, okay, we're doing this.
• 19:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I maximized it.
• 19:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's getting a little better.
• 19:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, her tone's a little better.
• 19:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's sitting up a little better.
• 19:57
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's putting weight on.
• 19:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's more interactive.
• 20:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The first six months of her life, she did.
• 20:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She was in a.
• 20:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They call it like a drug coma where she just stared off and literally didn't interact at all for the first six months of her life.
• 20:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So her just becoming more interactive and going, hi.
• 20:11
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And going da was like, okay, cool, we're making progress.
• 20:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 20:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so you grasp on the little things and then what's the next hump?
• 20:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Next hurdle?
• 20:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so came across functional neurology and realized you can use electricity.
• 20:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 20:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: To stimulate the brain from your body.
• 20:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So start using electrical stimulation to kind of start getting muscles and things to move.
• 20:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And so every time I get cranial magnetic.
• 20:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Or was it actually electrical?
• 20:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because I've seen it was a lot.
• 20:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was actually electrical.
• 20:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Using neuromuscular stimulation.
• 20:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Got it.
• 20:38
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She actually responded like, I'll fast forward 10 years.
• 20:42
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Part of the issue with cereal palsy or any brain injuries.
• 20:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: People get contractures.
• 20:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yes.
• 20:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So when your brain gets hurt, you lose connections to your muscles, and people Will curl up.
• 20:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The muscles are short, and they get all these pain syndromes.
• 20:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And the way you typically treat that with kids is you cut the heel cords, is you cut the hamstrings.
• 21:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's some surgeries where you actually cut part of the spinal cord to release the tension, because that's all the system has to offer.
• 21:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And were offered heel cord cuts, hamstring cuts, gastro cuts.
• 21:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's this one spinal surgery, a selective dorsal rhizotomy, where they cut part of her.
• 21:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, literally cutting your spinal cord so you can sit and she can look normal in a wheelchair.
• 21:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And part of that was because of her leg.
• 21:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She was a toe walker.
• 21:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, her toes were really bad, and so she couldn't.
• 21:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: If you can't stand up on flat feet, you can't balance.
• 21:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And for a kid with a neurological issue that puts you increased fall risk, hit your head again.
• 21:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's just really bad.
• 21:37
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So one of my patients actually was talking about this device they had called Revitif, which is FDA approved.
• 21:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's a $300 device to treat leg cramping and blood flow, lymphatic flow in older people's legs.
• 21:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I saw this.
• 21:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I'm like, oh, my gosh.
• 21:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That is what I want.
• 21:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's a foot plate that's a neuromuscular stimulation device.
• 21:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So, God, for Anna.
• 21:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And a little craft started contracting, and over six months, she lost the toner legs, started staying up straight, and literally, like, a $500,000 surgical procedure was prevented by a 300 foot plate.
• 22:11
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so, like, you.
• 22:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you do that like, 30 or 40 times.
• 22:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, it just keeps on making progress.
• 22:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Unbelievable.
• 22:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I'm sure that in your course of her.
• 22:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Is she 18 years old now?
• 22:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's 20 now.
• 22:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: 20.
• 22:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay, 20.
• 22:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But in this 20 years, over and over, you had these, like, frustrations.
• 22:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then you're like, okay, what can we do next?
• 22:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then just like you're describing, you found these things.
• 22:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I have no doubt that God was involved in, like, giving you inspiration too, because that's just how it works.
• 22:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I wonder if you have a story or two when you just like, I can imagine if it was my daughter, and I'm seeing, like, in front of me, all of a sudden, she's walking for the first time, and I'm like, wow.
• 22:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: God.
• 22:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like, this is absolutely amazing.
• 22:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Something I never thought I would ever see.
• 22:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Can you think of a timer?
• 22:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I'm sure there's lots of times, but can you give us a time or two when you Saw in front of you something happening that you never thought was possible?
• 23:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, were actually.
• 23:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It was actually my.
• 23:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We're.
• 23:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She has a service coordinator that helps coordinate stuff to, like, for.
• 23:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, she had.
• 23:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She has a wheelchair and she needs special stuff and things.
• 23:11
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So.
• 23:11
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And we're.
• 23:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I was coming back from work one of the meetings with the.
• 23:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The coordinator, and my daughter was on the video, and I was looking at my daughter, and she was talking to the coordinator, and I was just looking at.
• 23:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: On my phone.
• 23:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I was like, you look for like half a minute, like, you look like a typical kid talking on your cell phone.
• 23:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it was just this, like, oh, my gosh, like, it's gonna be okay.
• 23:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 23:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, yes, she's still in the wheelchair.
• 23:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yes, she's still a mess, but it's like, you are coming.
• 23:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, she.
• 23:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, actually, one of her au pairs got married this past weekend, and there's a picture of that she sent to us of her because she actually found the ring under she.
• 23:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This whole thing where she hid her ring in the audience.
• 23:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: People had to find the ring.
• 23:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So she.
• 23:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She snuck out of Anna's chair and it finds it.
• 23:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's like.
• 23:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like this.
• 23:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's just like.
• 23:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like the most amazing picture.
• 23:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, she is living an amazing life.
• 24:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She loves life.
• 24:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She loves people.
• 24:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And she was never supposed to walk or talk or do anything.
• 24:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And she's just, you know.
• 24:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, it's.
• 24:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's changed my entire career, changed my practice of medicine.
• 24:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's her.
• 24:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Her difficulty has literally affected thousands of people's lives.
• 24:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 24:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, I wouldn't have my practice if it wasn't for the struggle.
• 24:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, I think what you're going at initially, without the struggle of going through her health issues, I wouldn't have the practice I had.
• 24:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, we have four practitioners in our office now.
• 24:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We've had at this stage of, you know, tens of thousands of patients come through.
• 24:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, we would not have had the impact we've had if it wasn't for the struggle we've had with her.
• 24:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Unbelievable.
• 24:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And.
• 24:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I think now you have a book out about this.
• 24:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 24:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We're going to make sure I mention that, but that real quickly we'll keep going, but.
• 24:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So someone wanting to know more.
• 24:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The book is uncurable from hopeless diagnosis to the Final odds.
• 24:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's kind of her story where she was, you know, supposed to be a vegetable and now she's moving out of the house in the next month or 2 at 20, which was never supposed to be.
• 24:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And.
• 24:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I have other patient stories because you change your practice and get other patients.
• 25:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you.
• 25:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Is.
• 25:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Is this something just I do at home or can I do this with other people?
• 25:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you start doing it more and you realize, wait a second.
• 25:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There are certain foundational things like food is medicine, adequate sleep, you know, a healthy environment.
• 25:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, there's certain foundational things that became the rocket fuel for.
• 25:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: For her when we did, you know, ponds or portable oral nerve stimulation, or we did peptides and stem cells, or we did hyperbaric, or we did whatever, like without.
• 25:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you.
• 25:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I think that's a big important thing, is that people hear about, you know, what's the magic bullet?
• 25:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And the magic bullet is perfect.
• 25:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The basics, yes, is eat real food, use it like a drug, which sometimes means doing a fasty, a fancy fatty acid test at the Kenneth Krueger Institute and taking that and getting a really cool analysis.
• 25:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Sometimes it means doing special testing.
• 25:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Then, because we do this thing, I make this thing called brain mayo, which is mayonnaise, which shouldn't eat mayonnaise, right.
• 25:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But I use actually a clean oil that's actually tuned to her fatty acid testing.
• 25:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And all of a sudden it's literally mayonnaise that's healing her brain.
• 26:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so using food like a drug.
• 26:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The basics are super important.
• 26:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So the book actually goes into that has a lot of free resources, like a food sourcing guide throughout people anywhere in the country to find real food.
• 26:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, you know, if people just perfect the basics, you know, one of my things, and I'm not sure what your thoughts about this are, people perfect the basics.
• 26:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Probably 70, 80 of people would get the results they need without even coming to see me.
• 26:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And if they came to see me already doing that.
• 26:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like, you're ready to rock and roll.
• 26:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Oh, right.
• 26:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Oh, I know.
• 26:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They will skyrocket.
• 26:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 26:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay.
• 26:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I love that.
• 26:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I want to stop because I think fatty acids are so crucial, and very few physicians are really talking about it.
• 26:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I mean, there's certain trainings out there.
• 26:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Patricia Kane, of course, is one of the core.
• 26:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And.
• 26:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And just like body bioproducts, I've always, you know, found them to be really helpful.
• 26:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: The cre.
• 26:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I know the test you're talking about.
• 26:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I want to actually mention that to patients.
• 26:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: The Krieger.
• 26:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What's it called?
• 26:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Kenny Krueger Institute.
• 26:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's.
• 26:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's the prixismal lab.
• 26:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's.
• 26:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's a little difficult to get a hold of, and you have to have it's.
• 26:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's.
• 27:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's the place in the world that does it.
• 27:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But yeah, they, and they give you like this two page handout and it's, you know, they measure probably 30 or 40 different.
• 27:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I've got one, I've actually got my.
• 27:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Actually speaking of those.
• 27:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Oh, my daughter.
• 27:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This is, this is my daughter's test result, actually.
• 27:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 27:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because I've heard most recent ones and I agree it's a little.
• 27:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: That's why I can't remember the name.
• 27:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I was able to look it up and order it and.
• 27:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But what.
• 27:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Maybe we just do a tiny little side note because I think this is relevant.
• 27:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Fatty acids make up lipid bilayers and membranes.
• 27:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So neurological signaling in the brain and body.
• 27:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I see like post mold and some of these things, it messes it up a lot.
• 27:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Or in these disorders, like your daughter, do you want to just give a tiny little bit on how important just the foods would be and maybe a few of the things that someone could incorporate even if they haven't done the test to get a good fatty acid profile?
• 27:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, the thing about it is the, you know, mitochondria are the source for all illness, inflammation, all that kind of stuff, you know, hormones, et cetera.
• 27:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But people don't.
• 27:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The thing about is the structure.
• 27:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like mitochondria are a lipid membrane filled full of phospholipids, specifically phosphol, inositol, PE and pei, phosphyllethanolamine.
• 28:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And without these lipid barriers being appropriate, all of a sudden the electron transport chain which is making energy doesn't work quite as well.
• 28:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You don't make energy quite as well.
• 28:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, hormones, all the other things people talk about, all these things occur in receptors that typically are sitting in cell membranes.
• 28:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yes.
• 28:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And one of the interesting things, you know, the question becomes, you know, people, you know, is DNA the answer?
• 28:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, maybe it's the epigenetics or epigenetics the answer.
• 28:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We're actually learning that the actual cell membranes vibrate and actually have an energy that vibrates at a certain frequency based on the composition.
• 28:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And if they're filled full of rancid fats, seed oils, toxins, chemicals, they don't vibrate at the same frequency.
• 28:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And that affects everything that goes, that's attached in them and goes through them.
• 28:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So mold for what?
• 28:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Covid.
• 28:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like you get Covid, you get post vaccine, you get Lyme, you get mold.
• 28:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: One of the things that happens is you get these acute phase reactant kind of things that cause oxidation of these fatty acids.
• 29:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You get these things These called things called lipid wraps that actually block some of the things that actually move through the membranes.
• 29:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And all of a sudden, you know, I'm not sure if you've had this experience, but, you know, a lot of my really sensitive patients in the mold world, where they can't stand, you can't drink water.
• 29:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 29:16
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They react with water.
• 29:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They react with everything.
• 29:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 29:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's, there's.
• 29:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Everything's so reactive.
• 29:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And they've got mast cell stuff.
• 29:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I found that giving them phospholipids.
• 29:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yes.
• 29:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, let's look at this a little differently.
• 29:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We're going to give you soap, basically, to start going through your cells to wash their liver all of a sudden.
• 29:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Then they don't react to that.
• 29:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, a month later they're like, okay, they're ready.
• 29:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They can start tolerating stuff now.
• 29:37
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Phospholipids are a hugely important part of anybody's detoxification, whether it's mold, Lyme post concussive syndrome.
• 29:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, why does some people get a concussion and they're fine in five minutes and some people get one and the whole life falls apart?
• 29:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's because they have imbalances in their cell membranes.
• 29:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Those people need lots of phospholipids.
• 29:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, you know, just throwing omega 3s at people can be helpful to a point.
• 29:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But if you actually aren't measuring them and you don't know where people are starting from and if they're oxidized and if they, you know, there was some.
• 30:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's one.
• 30:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Fatty acids.
• 30:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's a lot of different fatty acid tests out there, but some of the basic ones you'll see like C23s and C25, like the longer ones.
• 30:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And you see a lot of those, you know, they've got bad stuff.
• 30:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 30:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So you can add in things like butyrate and tight gun stuff, but all of a sudden, giving your body some of these natural things, your body makes butyrate in your gut.
• 30:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Tadka is a, is a bile acid.
• 30:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Your body makes this stuff itself.
• 30:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So you literally give your body back what it makes.
• 30:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: All of a sudden you're reregulating, remodeling these cell membranes.
• 30:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And a lot of my tough mast cell patient cases who, like, we tried a bunch of things and let's change direction, let's do some membrane stuff.
• 30:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And all of a sudden they're less reactive, they're feeling better, their brains are clear.
• 30:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And oh, by the way, when you do IV phospholipids they actually thin the blood a little bit.
• 30:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And some of the issues with some of these illnesses is that you actually your blood coagulates a little easier and some of the markers, fibrins will go up.
• 30:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And just doing IV phospholipids, I've had in one patient recently who had a couple of stents put in for angina and she still was having angina.
• 31:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She had like a calcium score of like 1200, which is pretty high.
• 31:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 31:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's just something angina.
• 31:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And they're like, what are we gonna do for it?
• 31:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And we started doing IV, you know, phosphatidylcholine.
• 31:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And after four IVs, like her angina went away.
• 31:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 31:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's like.
• 31:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And that's mainly from the blood thing effect.
• 31:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But then, but the reason she kept on doing it was because.
• 31:19
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Oh, by the way, I'm thinking clear.
• 31:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, and so it's a really powerful tool that, you know, where does it come from?
• 31:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, find fossil lipids and egg yolks and caviar and organ meats.
• 31:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So.
• 31:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And what have we removed from diet for the last.
• 31:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We took all the fat out, you know, we took all the healthy fats out.
• 31:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We took organ meat out, we took egg yolks out, we egg whites.
• 31:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 31:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And we're like, why are we getting more sense, you know, one of my theories, you know, to why we're getting sicker and sicker in addition toxins and chemicals and all that stuff is that we have had a fatty acid deficiency for half a century.
• 31:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We've taken all the stuff out of our diets and now it's like, oh, you know how many of your autistic kids you see come in and all their cholesterols are low?
• 31:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, it's like, why is this 12 year old kid have like a 120 cholesterol?
• 32:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like, it's.
• 32:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah, the brain is cholesterol.
• 32:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 32:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: This bad rap.
• 32:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then I see the same thing and I'm like, this is not a good thing that Your cholesterol is 120,.
• 32:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Especially for neurolog biological issue.
• 32:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's really a bad thing.
• 32:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Exactly.
• 32:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: How great.
• 32:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I love talking about that because I don't think there's enough docs that really understand fatty acids.
• 32:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And looking at that phospholipids and using PC, obviously in your clinic you're using PC as part of the protocols, is that right?
• 32:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 32:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Correct.
• 32:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay.
• 32:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I do use, I, I kind of for a while stopped Using the body bio PC for other things that were, you know, sunflower versus soy that I just kind of clinically I just have way better results with the body bio.
• 32:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The thick, the big PC.
• 32:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I've just people like, I've not used any of the sunflower based ones and had people be like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better.
• 32:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So I kind of overlaps two years ago migrated back to just a good old fashioned body bio because it's worked really well.
• 32:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I agree.
• 32:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I kind of like that brand is just really good.
• 33:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It works.
• 33:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We know.
• 33:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And how amazing.
• 33:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Any other big aha's in your journey with Anna that you would say is relevant to those listening that might have a neurological disorder or child is suffering or just like other.
• 33:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I really love.
• 33:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Maybe we even start real quickly because you said the basics.
• 33:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We said the basics but we didn't even talk specifically about like clean air, clean water, clean food.
• 33:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: A few of the bait.
• 33:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What would you say like foundational, top three things that are most important for any child or adult listening?
• 33:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, foundational for, particularly for kids it's you know, using food like a drug.
• 33:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You have to use real food, which means they're probably going to be eating lots of fat.
• 33:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They're going to be eating nutrient dense foods.
• 33:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You're not going to be giving them carbs and grains and sugar.
• 33:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Nothing processed.
• 33:45
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, it's not just seed oils, it's any processed fat that's in a box has been rancidized or oxidized to some degree.
• 33:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so that just that part there.
• 33:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It took my wife and I about two years to figure out how to like find real foods.
• 33:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 33:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Pretty much, yeah.
• 34:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So like that a good healthy, clean environment.
• 34:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That also means loving support, loving family.
• 34:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like it's amazing if you don't have, if you're, if your house is a toxic place, if people aren't loving, compassionate, caring, they're always fighting like that.
• 34:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That keeps your nervous system like ramped up and in order for your body to heal, you know, this is some.
• 34:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The whole idea of the cell danger response.
• 34:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yes.
• 34:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know that.
• 34:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Oh shoot.
• 34:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Robert Navio.
• 34:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: His work.
• 34:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, I was like navio, his work.
• 34:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, part of that, it's interesting is like you can do everything right but if your nervous system still thinks you're not safe, you're still going to stay stuck in that cell danger response.
• 34:38
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So you have to have this, the right environment, accurate sleep.
• 34:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I feel like it's so basic and so it's not fancy but if you, when you sleep is when your nervous system resets, it's when your immune system resets, it's when your hormones reset.
• 34:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like if you're not gonna get inflammation down, you're not gonna get your brain like.
• 34:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And during your deep sleep is when the most of your brain detoxification happens in the glial lymphatics, which are the lymphatics in your brain.
• 35:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like if you're not getting accurate sleep, that stuff's not gonna happen.
• 35:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So you really gotta like professional athlete affect the basics.
• 35:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That's where I start with all my patients because I feel like if you don't do that, all the fancy, expensive, cool things just don't work as well.
• 35:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah, that's kind of where I start with everybody, so agree.
• 35:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I'm glad we kind of touched on that because I think it's just like a core thing that we don't want to forget the basics in the midst of all these amazing things.
• 35:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: One of the thing that comes to mind is obviously with Anna, how she was born with a mother that had meth addiction.
• 35:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: There's often now evidence that epigenetics, or things that are programmed in utero can affect a child their whole life long.
• 35:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Did you have to do anything in that realm or was it just that your loving family and new situation started to reprogram her genes or any thoughts on that or how you might have.
• 35:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because obviously there's.
• 35:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Whether it's adopted kids or a child who had a difficult.
• 35:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And again now we know these ancestral patterns even can kind of imprint on the genes.
• 35:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Any thoughts on that?
• 36:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, it's, you know, I, I'm a hopeful guy.
• 36:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yeah.
• 36:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I believe that you were made for health.
• 36:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Your body was made to self heal and self repair.
• 36:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That if we can just find the roadblocks to that healing process, remove them, give your body what's what needs.
• 36:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It'll do what it's made to do with the self heal and self repair.
• 36:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So yes, you know, the transgenerational epigenetics you're referring to is through, you know, we know about that from the Dutch bread famines, et cetera.
• 36:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But it's amazing, like you know, you weren't, you know, so you were inside your mom when your mom was inside your grandmother when she was pregnant.
• 36:31
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That's how crazy is that?
• 36:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right?
• 36:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You can't make this stuff up.
• 36:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right, Right.
• 36:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Your genes will be impacted by your grandmother's diet.
• 36:37
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like yes, that is true.
• 36:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But at the same time, you start changing your microbiome within six or eight hours of eating broccoli.
• 36:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 36:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So it's, it's both.
• 36:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's like, yes, what your grandparents did are impactful and you can change it with a stick of broccoli today or whatever.
• 36:52
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I'm saying that because, yeah, that was one study, that was AFM training.
• 36:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The guy was quoting.
• 36:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But so I don't want it to be like, oh my gosh, I'm doomed.
• 37:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But you can change genetic expression.
• 37:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, to your point, I think, you know how many people who do crystal meth have amazing teeth?
• 37:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, none.
• 37:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 37:11
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like if you see meth mouth, it's like people's teeth are falling out.
• 37:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, her birth, my daughter's birth mother did crystal meth her entire pregnancy.
• 37:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So what is your expectation dental wise?
• 37:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's 20 now.
• 37:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: How many cavities do you think my daughter's had in her life?
• 37:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Zero.
• 37:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 37:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, how does a kid born to a mother who did crystal meth the entire pregnancy make it to 20 and with no cavities?
• 37:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Oh, by the way, since we've had her, she's had antibiotics once.
• 37:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 37:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: How many, how many normal kids make it through their life with, you know, once CP kids get antibiotics five times a year.
• 37:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 37:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Hospitalizations, you know, they have chronic lung issues, all kind of stuff.
• 37:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, not once.
• 37:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so that is the environment.
• 37:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 37:54
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Yes, she had the bad setup.
• 37:56
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, she's got crooked teeth and she has some mild sleep apnea.
• 37:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, it's only so much you can do.
• 38:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But she's under cavities progressing.
• 38:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, it's one of those things where I think you need to focus on.
• 38:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It's not either or, it's both.
• 38:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And yes, what you do will impact future generations, but you can also change that now with what you do.
• 38:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so, I mean, depending on who you're talking to, some people are deterministic, like doomed.
• 38:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Other people are like, you know, you can smoke all the crack you want if you eat broccoli.
• 38:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I'm like, it's not the way it works.
• 38:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 38:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: No, I couldn't agree more.
• 38:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I always like with especially BRCA and these genes that we're now testing.
• 38:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And some people go out and just get really extreme with that information.
• 38:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And granted, I understand it and if that's going to create anxiety, but I'm like you, I'm like, there is so much that can be done.
• 38:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's not deterministic.
• 38:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like we want to thought this is actually changeable.
• 38:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So.
• 38:44
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Well, I mentioned the Brad, I have multiple patients with the bracha gene.
• 38:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And in the 1950s, if you had the gene, your risk for breast cancer was 20%.
• 38:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: One in five, which is not horrible, but it's high risk.
• 38:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right now it's 80%.
• 38:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 38:58
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Now it's four out of five.
• 38:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So if it was purely environmental, I mean, if it was purely genetic, why would you see a 400% increase?
• 39:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, kids with down syndrome.
• 39:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: About 60% of kids with down syndrome are spontaneously bored.
• 39:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They don't make a live birth.
• 39:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The mother's body kicks it out.
• 39:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Those that are born, some will make it to 50 with mild Mr. And get jobs with meaning and value, et cetera.
• 39:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And some will develop.
• 39:23
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I had one of my patients, she started developing Alzheimer's, late 20s.
• 39:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 39:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So.
• 39:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And this is a gene.
• 39:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Gene.
• 39:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Genetic.
• 39:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Genetic thing.
• 39:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Right.
• 39:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So you go from not being born to having a job when you're 50.
• 39:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like this is environment.
• 39:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So even the most genetic things.
• 39:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The most genetic things have a huge environmental component.
• 39:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah, I could not agree more.
• 39:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And that's what's hopeful too, because we can change that.
• 39:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Loving family and the nutrition and all that.
• 39:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Erin, this has been really powerful, your story.
• 39:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I knew it would be.
• 39:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But it's been even more fun just to talk to you as a friend and colleague, but also get to know more about Anna.
• 39:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And what would you say is the biggest life lesson that you learned in this process?
• 40:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like, how was it changing to you?
• 40:05
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, the biggest.
• 40:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, this has been a process because I've been asked that question a couple times and thought about.
• 40:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I think the biggest thing was the way it changed me was just never give up.
• 40:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Ever.
• 40:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, like that.
• 40:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Stick to this, like, trust.
• 40:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Trust your gut, trust your intuition, you know, part.
• 40:21
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I actually wrote this in the book.
• 40:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's a whole new field of science now looking at.
• 40:24
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You can actually trust your.
• 40:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like there's something behind your hunches, your.
• 40:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Your intuition, your gut feel.
• 40:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Now you want to educate it, right?
• 40:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You don't want to just, like, do things willy nilly.
• 40:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But.
• 40:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But don't give up.
• 40:34
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Trust your gut.
• 40:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, if someone tells you something, you know, you're doomed.
• 40:38
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's no hope.
• 40:38
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This is the only way out.
• 40:39
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I'm the expert.
• 40:40
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You have to do what I say.
• 40:41
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it doesn't resonate, it doesn't feel right.
• 40:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Just take a step back because it.
• 40:46
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That's, you know, it's.
• 40:47
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The funny thing about Anna is we literally have done nothing.
• 40:49
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The experts have said, I mean, every recommendation, yes, I went to the neurologist Yes.
• 40:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I went to the eye doctor and asked about eye surgery.
• 40:55
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: They wanted to cut her eye muscles to make, you know, first or bismuth.
• 40:59
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But every time I went to someone, they said, this is all we have.
• 41:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Like, my thing was like, how much is that going to help?
• 41:04
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And the answer usually was, it might not help that much.
• 41:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, like, that's all I need to know.
• 41:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah, Not a great.
• 41:10
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: This is not a great out.
• 41:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Cool.
• 41:12
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That would go down another pathway.
• 41:13
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so there are other answers out there.
• 41:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Don't give up.
• 41:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah.
• 41:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Trust your gut.
• 41:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, and these are things that anybody can do, you know, anybody can work hard, not give up, can look for answers.
• 41:25
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And that's a difference between my daughter's story and other people who.
• 41:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The standard of care, who.
• 41:30
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Kids are her age who have multiple surgeries.
• 41:33
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, I actually mentioned this in the book as well.
• 41:35
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She's turning 20.
• 41:36
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The typical kid with her diagnosis has had over 13 surgeries by the time they get to be her age.
• 41:43
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: She had her first surgery, which was actually a minimally invasive procedure for her tone and her legs, like, two weeks ago.
• 41:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 41:51
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And we did that because we hit another hurdle and we'd done a bunch of things over years, and it was like, this is the one thing.
• 41:57
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: There's only two surgeons in the country do this procedure.
• 42:00
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Went and talked with them.
• 42:01
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I went and actually had the conversation with the surgeon.
• 42:03
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: My thing was like, if it's not a hell yeah, it's a hell no.
• 42:06
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: I mean, it's just like.
• 42:07
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And I talked with him like, yeah, we need to do this.
• 42:09
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And so to make it to 20 without a surgery, that's unheard of in this world.
• 42:14
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's because we didn't give up, because we kept on looking and because we trusted our.
• 42:18
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Trusted our guts, our hunch with.
• 42:20
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And, and find someone that work with you.
• 42:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Find someone that believes in you, that's not going to give up on you ever.
• 42:27
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And that's more powerful than the walls and degrees on wherever you went to university.
• 42:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That's.
• 42:32
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: That's more important and more powerful.
• 42:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I could not agree more.
• 42:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What a great way to end.
• 42:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: To give people encouragement out there because everybody's struggling now with their own issues or health issues.
• 42:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And so if people want to get the book, where can they find the book?
• 42:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then where can they find more about you and your practice and are you accepting new patients?
• 42:49
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Gotcha.
• 42:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So the.
• 42:50
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: The book is uncurable Book dot com.
• 42:53
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: My main website is Aaron Hartman md And that will take you to the book on curable that will take you to my website, which is Richmond Integrative Functional Medicine.
• 43:02
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We also have social media and a podcast so you can get all that stuff from the Aaron Hartman MD website.
• 43:08
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: In our practice, we are continuing to grow in central Virginia.
• 43:11
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: We have two doctors, nurse practitioner, pa and we continue to add on practitioners.
• 43:15
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: Just the need, Jill.
• 43:17
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: You know, there's too many patients, it's too great, you know, so we're looking for great practitioners to join us.
• 43:22
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: And it's hard because, you know, this kind of medicine is fulfilling, but it's hard.
• 43:26
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: It takes a lot of work and you have to like, you can't ever stop learning.
• 43:28
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: So.
• 43:29
  Dr. Aaron Hartman: But yeah, we're still accepting patients and the practice name is Richmond Integrative and Functional Medicine.
• 43:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Awesome.
• 43:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And if you guys are listening or driving or anywhere, as always, we'll link you all in the show notes.
• 43:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It'll all be there.
• 43:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Dr. Hartman, it's been a pleasure to know you from back in Switzerland and your wife and then now and to hear the journey.
• 43:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I don't think I knew the whole story of Anna even back when we first met.
• 43:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So it's like the last, as Paul Harvey would say.
• 43:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And for the rest of the story, it's so powerful and I just want to emphasize like in 20 years, one set of antibiotics and one minimally invasive surgery, that's truly a miracle.
• 44:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And that just goes to show the kind of parents that you are, but more importantly, the kind of doctor and again that God allowed this for you for, you know, this growth and this ability to transform the lives of thousands of others.
• 44:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So thank you for being humble and curious and for bringing this story to the world.
• 44:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I can't wait to read the story myself.
• 44:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So I hope if you're out there listening, you'll grab a copy of this book and share it with someone who needs encouragement.
• 44:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But thank you, Dr. Hartman.
• 44:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Hey guys, Hope you enjoyed that amazing episode with Dr. Aaron Hartman on his story of from hopeless diagnosis to defying all odds.
• 44:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You can get his book at his website, which is in the show notes for below.
• 44:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: If you haven't yet subscribed on YouTube, please join our over 900,000 subscribers and hit the bell to be notified of future episodes and wherever else you're listening to this on Spotify, itunes or your favorite podcast application, please stop by, give us a review, Share Comment like all of that, we sure appreciate you joining us and you can join us again next week for a brand new episode of Resiliency Radio.
• 45:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Until then, Have a great weekend.