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The Truth About Instant Hot Water · Cool Talk with Hartzell's | Your HVAC Questions, Answered!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever just stood there completely shivering in your shower, just tapping your foot on the cold tile?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just absolutely miserable.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You are watching cold water run down the drain for what feels like I mean, an absolute eternity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: It really is a universally frustrating way to start the day.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: It just, you know, sets a terrible tone for everything that follows.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: It really does.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, it isn't just a subjective feeling.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: We actually have some data on this.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: One homeowner out on Highway 33 in Oklahoma actually timed this daily annoyance to see just how bad it was.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Like with a stopwatch.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: She stood there with her phone and clocked it at exactly two minutes and 40 seconds.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Every single morning, she is just standing there, cold, watching perfectly clean water vanish down the drain.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That is well, that's a highly specific and highly miserable metric to start your day with.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell And it paints a very vivid picture of a problem that, frankly, millions of people just accept as a normal part of life.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Well, today our mission for this deep dive is to figure out exactly why we accept it and more importantly, how to actually fix it.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Sounds like a great plan.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We are going to explore the surprisingly complex world of instant hot water systems.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And along the way, we will decode the secret language of HVAC industry promotions.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: That part is fascinating.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we are also going to look at a crazy case study in radical business transparency.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're drawing all of this from an incredibly engaging interview on the Cool Talk Show.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: A really great source.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: It features Dave Hartzall.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: He is an Oklahoma HVAC veteran with over 45 years of experience crawling under houses and fixing these exact problems.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, let's unpack this.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell, the Cool Talk interview is just such a great source because Dave refuses to sugarcoat anything about his industry.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell He is brutally honest.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: He really is.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: He looks at a house entirely differently than the average person does, which is, you know, crucial for understanding the root of this plumbing issue.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Okay, so let's start with the physical problem.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Dave talks about how waiting for hot water isn't actually a shower problem at all.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell Right.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is a plumbing setup problem.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Exactly.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: In older homes, uh, or especially ones that have additions, the water heater might be in a far corner of the house.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the hot water has to physically push through this incredibly long run of cold pipes.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell It is a huge distance to cover.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if my pipes are this long freezing highway, how do you actually fix that without ripping out the drywall to move the water heater?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can't just bend physics to make the water travel faster.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Well, you can't bend physics, right?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: But Dave points out you can change the traffic pattern.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Okay, what does that mean?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell What's fascinating here is that the solution isn't making the water travel faster.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is never letting it stop.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he outlines two main ways to approach this mechanically.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: The first is a recirculating pump.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have heard of those, but how does a pump actually solve the cold pipe problem?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like where does the cold water go?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That is the brilliant part.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: In a high-end or you know, a newer installation, the plumber actually installs a dedicated return line.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, a third pipe?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, a third pipe.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the hot water leaves the water heater, travels to the furthest sink in the house, and then a small, quiet pump slowly pushes it back to the water heater through that third pipe.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it creates a continuous loop.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: The water in the main pipe is never allowed to just sit there and get cold.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to our analogy, your unheated highway is essentially always full of moving, warm traffic.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Precisely.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is always flowing.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: That makes perfect sense if you are building a house from scratch, but I am definitely not tearing open my walls to add a third pipe to my old house.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: What about the rest of us?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So for existing homes, Dave talks about retrofit recirculating systems.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And these are incredibly clever.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, how do they work?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: You install a pump at the water heater, and then you put a small thermal crossover valve right under the sink that is furthest away from the heater.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: A crossover valve.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when the water in the hot pipe gets cold, that valve opens up.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: The pump pushes the cold water out of the hot line and straight into your existing cold water line.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, really?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: It forces it back toward the water heater using the cold pipe.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, so it pushes the cold water backward through the cold tap line.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean when I go to get a glass of cold water to drink, it might be warm?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: That is the slight mechanical trade-off of a retrofit system.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, I see.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: You might get a brief blast of lukewarm water from the cold tap because the system used that pipe as its return highway, but you get instant hot water in the shower.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell I mean, I think I would gladly take warm drinking water if it means I don't have to freeze in the shower.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people feel that way.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell But you mentioned a second option earlier.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: What if I just don't want to mess with valves and pumps at all?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So the second solution Dave brings up is a small, tankless point-of-use unit.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Okay, like a mini heater?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is literally a tiny, high-powered electric water heater placed right under the sink or mounted near the shower.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: In our highway analogy, you don't keep the traffic moving.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: You just build a brand new hot water factory right next door to the destination.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell So you basically bypass the long commute entirely.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I am noticing something weird about this whole conversation.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's that?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Dave is a heating and air conditioning guy.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why is an HVAC veteran diagnosing my plumbing setup?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Shouldn't he be focused on furnaces, freon, and ductwork?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you might assume that, but this is where his 45 years of experience really shines.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell How so?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: He is talking about plumbing because he is already crawling under these houses all day.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh right.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's up in the blistering hot attics.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's standing in the mechanical closet right next to the water heater while he works on the furnace.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So he sees everything.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: He sees the whole board.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Dave realizes that an HVAC professional is perfectly positioned to observe the entire ecosystem of the house.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: He sees how the plumbing, the electrical, and the air ducts all physically interact in those hidden spaces.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell So he's seeing the house as a single machine, not just isolated parts.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that ecosystem approach really comes into focus when Dave talks about geography.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, geography is huge here.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yeah.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: He makes a huge point that this hot water delay is heavily dependent on where you actually live.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Central Oklahoma happens to be a prime market for these systems for three very specific reasons.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Context dictates everything in home performance.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: A mechanical solution that makes perfect sense in one state might be a complete waste of money in another.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Completely.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at his first reason.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: He mentions towns like Kingfisher, Okarshi, Hennessy, and Piedmont.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: These towns have a massive inventory of older homes.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: These were built decades ago, long before modern building codes or anyone really considered hot water travel distance.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell The floor plans are just naturally hostile to quick hot water delivery.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell They really are.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell And many of them have those sprawling single-story ranch layouts.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Oh, so everything is spread out.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell Exactly, which means the lateral distance the water has to travel horizontally is enormous.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you add a couple of renovations and an added master bathroom over the years, and you have a geographical nightmare for your water heater.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell You really do.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell So the second reason he gives is the groundwater itself.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: The winter groundwater in Oklahoma is genuinely cold.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus Very cold.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus Dave mentions the water coming into the house from the city Maine can drop down into the low 40s during the winter months.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell The starting temperature of the water dictates the sheer amount of energy required to raise it to a comfortable shower temperature.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus Right.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: A 40-degree starting point is a very steep hill to climb for any water heater.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: It takes longer to heat and it loses that heat much faster when it sits in a cold pipe.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Which perfectly explains why the wait for a warm shower feels significantly longer in January than it does in July.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: The pipes and the water inside them are practically freezing to begin with.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the third reason he gives is the sheer cost of the water itself.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell, water bills can be brutal out there.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yeah, out in those rural Oklahoma areas or on certain municipal water systems, water is highly priced.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do the math on that Highway 33 homeowner we talked about.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's hear it.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: If she is wasting two minutes and 40 seconds of water at roughly two gallons a minute, twice a day, she is literally pouring hundreds of gallons of clean, expensive water down the drain every single month.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell It is a compounding problem.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: You are wasting precious morning time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: You are enduring physical discomfort, and you are actively throwing money away on your utility bill.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell But here's where it gets really interesting for me.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about the energy math behind all of this.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-oh.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: If I have a recirculating pump, looping water all hours of the day to keep my pipes ready, or my main water heater is working overtime to constantly reheat that lukewarm water returning from the loop.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I see where you are going.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Aren't I just trading a high water bill for an equally high electric bill?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: If we connect this to the bigger picture, you've hit on the exact thermodynamic dilemma Dave warns his customers about.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: You are absolutely trading resources.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: There is no free lunch in physics.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: There never is, is there?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: There is always a hidden catch when you add a new convenience gadget to your house.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this is exactly why Dave cautions against just chasing a product because the brochure sounds nice.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: True home comfort requires balancing resource conservation against energy expenditure.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a balancing act.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: You are saving water, which is fantastic for your local reservoir and your water pill, but keeping that highway of water constantly warm requires electricity to run the pump.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it requires extra gas or electricity for the water heater to maintain that temperature.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you upgrade your home to something super efficient, you know, maybe exploring geothermal heating and cooling for your main HVAC system, which is actually one option Dave offers out there in Oklahoma.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: But even with that, you still have to account for the energy used to keep that specific plumbing loop hot.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how do you justify it then?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way to not waste all that electricity?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Dave recommends using timers or smart aqua stats.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: How does that work?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of running the pump 24 hours a day, you set the timer to run the pump only during your usual morning and evening shower windows.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that makes sense.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or you use a push button under the sink.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: You just push it, the pump runs for exactly two minutes to prime the pipes and then shuts off.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: You have to look at the whole system and manage it intentionally.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, so you cannot just slap a pump on the wall and forget about it without paying a huge penalty on your power bill.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dave clearly wants his customers to think critically about that specific trade-off.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: He is treating the homeowner like an intelligent adult.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell He really is.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: He provides the mechanical reality so they can make an informed choice rather than just selling them a box to hit a monthly quota.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell And speaking of quotas, the pressure to sell that specific box is exactly why we're looking at Dave's interview today.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Yes, the marketing side of things.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Because when homeowners are desperate for a fix to a daily annoyance like a freezing shower, manufacturers just see dollar signs.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell They absolutely do.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they use some pretty opaque tactics to get contractors to push their specific gear into your home.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Navigating the marketing landscape of home improvement is notoriously tricky for consumers.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the incentives are very rarely clear.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Let's look at the specific industry news that set Dave off in this interview.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: It involves something called the Pro-IAQ Fall Contractor SPIF Promotion.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell The famous SPIF.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So Pro-IAQ is an equipment manufacturer, and they launched a program this fall to incentivize contractors to install their specific brand of instant hot water units.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now Dave is incredibly vocal about the massive difference between this kind of promotion and a standard utility rebate.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell The distinction is absolutely vital.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Consumers constantly conflate the two.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, the industry often relies on that confusion.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell So let's break it down.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: A standard utility rebate is tied to your zip code and your specific local utility company, right?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: It actually lowers the cost of the equipment for you, the homeowner.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You buy a highly efficient unit, you submit a form, and the state or the power company sends a physical check straight to your mailbox.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell You actually see the savings.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: But a spiff is entirely different.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is a manufacturer kickback.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: It is an internal sales push designed to motivate the contractor to recommend that specific brand over a competitor.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: The homeowner doesn't see a single dime of that money directly.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell It is basically a behind-the-scenes bounty paid to the technician.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell It sounds exactly like a pharmaceutical representative buying a doctor a fancy steak dinner to encourage them to prescribe a certain brand name medication over a generic one.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That is a perfect analogy.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell The patient isn't getting a free dinner, the doctor is.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to ask the obvious question here.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: If a manufacturer has to legally bribe a contractor to sell their product, does that mean the pro IAQ equipment is inherently garbage?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are they just trying to offload defective junk?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell You know, this raises an important question about consumer assumptions versus industry realities.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And surprisingly, the answer is no.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: The equipment is not inherently bad.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, Dave explicitly states in the interview that he has thoroughly looked at the Pro IAQ gear and thinks it is very solid, reliable equipment.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Well, that is a huge relief.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the product itself will actually heat your water just fine.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: It will work perfectly.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: The issue Dave has isn't with the engineering at all.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: The issue is with the transparency.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Dave is drawing a hard line here to protect the homeowner's expectations.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to make absolutely sure you don't mistakenly hear the word promotion from a contractor and just assume a big rebate check is coming your way.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because that word is tricky.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: It is?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: The danger isn't the physical product.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: The danger is the false financial expectation.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because if a guy in an HVAC uniform standing in your kitchen says he has a special fall promotion, I mean the average person naturally assumes that means a discount on the final invoice.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Of course they do.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: They think they are getting a deal.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Precisely.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And while, you know, a benevolent contractor might choose to pass a little bit of that bonus on to you by lowering their labor rate to win the job, they are under absolutely zero obligation to do so.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell They can just keep the full price and pocket the bonus.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Dave is pulling back the curtain on this practice because he just refuses to let a customer feel misled after the fact.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: He actually advises listeners to look their contractor in the eye and ask point blank.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Ask them what?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Ask them, does this promotional savings apply to my invoice, or is that a bonus you are getting?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: That takes a staggering amount of guts for a contractor to say on a public interview.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: It really does.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: He is basically telling customers how to interrogate his own peers.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's handing the homeowner a flashlight and telling them exactly where to look for the hidden fees.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: He is.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that refusal to obscure the truth is the perfect pivot to the final major theme of the interview.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the transparency stuff.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Dave's approach to calling out the SPIF promotion is just one small piece of his broader, frankly, radical approach to business transparency.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't just pull back the curtain on the industry's practices, he pulls it back completely on his own operation.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: He really lays all of his cards face up on the table.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: He does.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: He shares his exact pricing model right out in the open, dollar for dollar.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let me break this down for you, because it is incredibly rare to hear a service professional speak this clearly about costs without trying to get you to sign a binding contract first.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is highly unusual.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: The industry standard is usually, well, we have to see it to price it.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So please break down his numbers for us.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Well, if you call Dave for a standard service call, he charges a$99 travel fee just to get his truck to your driveway.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty standard.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell But then once he is there, there is a$111 diagnostic fee.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is a flat total of$210 just for him to find out what is actually wrong with your system.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now if your heater breaks in the middle of the night and you call him after hours, that total automatically goes up to$309.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Those are very specific, intentionally unrounded numbers.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he isn't just throwing out an estimated 200 bucks.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: It shows he has calculated his exact costs of doing business.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if you just want a standalone AC tune-up in the spring, you know, right before the brutal 98-degree July heat hits central Oklahoma, he charges$229.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Okay, but here is the massive kicker.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Dave tells his customers up front, on the phone, before he even puts the keys in his truck's ignition, that the diagnostic fee does not credit toward the final repair costs.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, really?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Most places I see on television heavily advertise that they will completely waive the diagnostic fee if you hire them to do the actual fix.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like such a great deal.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell It does sound great on a billboard.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: But Dave points out that the waived fee is usually just an accounting trick.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Oh, is it?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Companies that waive the fee usually just hide that exact diagnostic cost inside a heavily inflated parts and labor bill.
• 17:01
  unknown: Of course.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You are still paying for it.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: You just don't know you're paying for it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And Dave refuses to play that psychological game.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: He separates the cost of his diagnostic expertise from the physical cost of the parts and the labor to install them.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell He's basically saying my ability to figure out why your house is broken is a valuable skill, and I am charging you for that brain power.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Exactly.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is a complete rejection of contractors, smoke, and mirrors.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he takes his honesty a step further.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: He readily admits to the customer when a job is outside his specific lane of expertise.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That is rare.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Remember those electric point-of-use tankless water heaters we talked about earlier?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Yeah, the minifactories.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Dave tells customers straight up that those units pull a massive amount of electrical current, which means they usually require a newly upgraded breaker panel from a licensed electrician.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the pipe work needs a licensed plumber.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: He points his customers to other trades people he trusts rather than faking his way through an electrical installation just to keep the revenue in-house.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, many contractors will just say yes to everything and figure it out on the fly.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Which can be so dangerous.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: It could be disastrous for the homeowner's safety.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what does this all mean?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Dave explicitly says on the interview that he would much rather lose a sale today than have somebody feel tricked or misled six months from now when they realize they bought the wrong thing.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is a long game strategy.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am looking at a guy who charges premium flat fees, refuses to waive his diagnostic costs, points out his competitors' hidden promotions, and actively turns away work that isn't his specialty.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is this level of bluntness actually the most effective long-term sales tactic of all?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because he has over 300 Google reviews sitting at a pristine 4.8 stars.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, this strategy is working.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is incredibly effective.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the psychology behind why it works is just fascinating.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about that.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, think about the typical contractor experience from the perspective of the homeowner.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is usually an experience riddled with intense anxiety.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I feel my stomach drop every single time I hear a weird clanking noise coming from my air vents.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: You just immediately see dollar signs floating away, and you feel completely powerless because you don't speak the mechanical language.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell That feeling of powerlessness is universal.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know what is broken, you don't know how much it will ultimately cost to fix.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And worse, you are constantly worried that the technician standing in your kitchen is trying to upsell you on expensive filters or gadgets you don't actually need.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: The upsell fear is real.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what Dave is doing with this radical honesty is entirely disrupting that anxiety cycle.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: He is neutralizing the fear of the unknown.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: He really is.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: By treating you as an intelligent, equal decision maker, laying out the exact fees without any gimmicks, and refusing to hide behind slick marketing speak, he builds a tremendous amount of immediate relief and trust.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: That makes total sense.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: When that customer eventually needs a major$10,000 system replacement five years from now, they aren't going to call the guy who gave them a sneaky fake discount on a diagnostic fee.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: They are going to call the guy who looked them in the eye and told them the flat truth, even when it actively cost him a sale that day.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Trust is the absolute most valuable commodity a service professional can build.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: A single loyal customer who trusts you will generate 10 times the revenue over a decade than a single high-pressure upsell will generate today.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Trust over short-term profits.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: It really is a beautiful business model.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And looking at Dave's success, it clearly pays off in the real world.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely does.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: As we wrap up this deep dive, the main takeaway for you, the listener, is pretty clear.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to the comfort and the complex mechanics of your home, you should always chase the actual mechanical fix rather than the flashy seasonal promotion.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Always take a step back and ask who is truly benefiting from a financial incentive before you agree to buy a new piece of equipment.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And most importantly, seek out professionals who view your home as an interconnected ecosystem.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: People who are willing to tell you the uncomfortable truth, even if it means telling you to hire someone else.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Good advice.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: But before we sign off, I know you had one more thought you wanted to leave us with based on the source material.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Something about where all this plumbing technology is actually heading.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Looking closely at Dave's interview, he mentions a shift happening in the new construction market.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, new residential builds are slowly getting much smarter about this geography problem we talked about.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: How so?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Builders are actively changing floor plans to optimize the water heater placement.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: They are centering it relative to all the major bathrooms to just naturally shorten the commute.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is smart.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Even more interestingly, they are starting to make those built-in recirculating return lines a standard feature from day one during the framing process.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is massively cheaper and easier for a plumber to run those extra copper pipes when the walls are completely open and the drywall hasn't been hung yet.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: It costs a fraction of the price.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And observing that trend raises a really provocative thought for the future of housing.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: We pay thousands of dollars today, you know, dealing with pumps and crossover valves to retrofit our older homes with these modern instant hot water conveniences.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it makes you wonder what other expensive, highly specialized technology that we obsess over and pay a premium for today, will simply become invisible, assumed architecture in the standard homes of tomorrow.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: That is wild to think about.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Today's premium luxury upgrade, the thing we spend weeks researching and saving up for, is tomorrow's basic drywall.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Basically.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Just a standard, boring feature that nobody even thinks about or appreciates.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is definitely something to ponder the next time you are standing there, shivering under the shower head, tapping your foot on the cold tile, and counting the seconds while the cold water runs down the drain.