Latest / The You Project / #1888 The Evolution of Religion - Dr. Bill Sullivan

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#1888 The Evolution of Religion - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcomes from another instorm of the
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Speaker 1: UW Project. Doctor Bill Sullivan is an award winning scientist, author,
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Speaker 1: and science communicator. I'm doing a proper intro for you today.
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Speaker 1: A science communicator renowned for his work in genetics, microbiology, biology,
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Speaker 1: and infectious diseases. Put your teeth in, Craig. Doctor Sullivan
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Speaker 1: is the author of the phenomenally successful science book Please
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Speaker 1: to Meet Me, Jean's Germs, and the Curious Book Forces Makers.
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Speaker 1: Who we are. Here's the thing. If you're going to
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Speaker 1: do an intro, Craig, do it properly. Sorry about that,
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Speaker 1: I had to go morning doc.
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Speaker 2: Hey Greg, how you doing.
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Speaker 1: I'm very good, buddy. Well, of course it's nighttime where
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Speaker 1: you are. It's nine thirty four now here? What is it?
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Speaker 1: Is it like six thirty four or seven thirty four
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Speaker 1: over there? What is it?
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Speaker 2: It's seven thirty in the evening here?
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Speaker 1: And so what do we Oh, it's Sunday for you,
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Speaker 1: it's Monday for me. Has your Sunday been? Oh?
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Speaker 2: The Sunday was very pleasant, beautiful, made the routes and
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Speaker 2: you know, it's just been a very pleasant day.
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Speaker 1: Imagine you spent most of us at church, just seeking
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Speaker 1: forgiveness and being prostate and repentant.
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Speaker 2: Yeah right, if I set foot into a church, I'll
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Speaker 2: go all Demian thorn, you remember from the Women?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you might spontaneously combust if you
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Speaker 1: set foot in a house of worship. That would that
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Speaker 1: would be fun It's funny because Americans are I don't
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Speaker 1: know if they're actually genuinely real deal, you know, Christian, Biblical,
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Speaker 1: but but like represent as a very Christian nation and
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Speaker 1: I guess you have like lots of Christian in inverted commas. Friends,
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Speaker 1: how do you how do you go with all them?
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Speaker 1: You and your itheistic worldview?
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Speaker 2: Well, it's just fine. I mean, it's this nation actually
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Speaker 2: supports a wide variety of faiths. There is a Christian majority,
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Speaker 2: no doubt about it, and there's a segment of that
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Speaker 2: that's particularly vocal and under the illusion that this country
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Speaker 2: was founded to be Christian, which just is utterly false.
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Speaker 2: Most of our laws are secular, our ethical system is secular,
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Speaker 2: education system secular. And that's all for a very good
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Speaker 2: thing because instead of catering to one single religion, which
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Speaker 2: doesn't have a monopoly on all that faith would require,
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Speaker 2: we get to make laws, policy and education based on
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Speaker 2: secular ethics, which I think is very reasonable and in fact,
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Speaker 2: it incorporates a lot of the sensible, you know, morals
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Speaker 2: that many different faiths subscribe to, kind of more or
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Speaker 2: less universally. So I think that's really one of the
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Speaker 2: wonderful things. When our founders devised this country, it was
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Speaker 2: one of the first that would not establish a federal religion.
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Speaker 1: Yeah right, It's like I find I find faith and
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Speaker 1: faith and belief and knowledge and science and programming and
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Speaker 1: conditioning and all of those kind of intersecting human variables
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Speaker 1: where like I grew up in a religious house, and
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Speaker 1: in that religious house or household, you're not you're not
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Speaker 1: given suggestions or you know, theoreticals. You're given like absolutes.
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Speaker 1: This is there is a God, there is this, there
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Speaker 1: is heaven, there is hell. And in the Catholic system
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Speaker 1: there is purgatry, there are saints, there are you know,
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Speaker 1: there are all of these things where you grow up
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Speaker 1: in the middle of that and you end up, you know,
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Speaker 1: most people anyway, end up believing whatever it is they
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Speaker 1: were raised in. And I'm not saying this is good
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Speaker 1: or bad everyone, and I'm not talking necessarily about religion.
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Speaker 1: It could be that mum and dad were vegans, or
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Speaker 1: mum and dad believe that a particular football club was
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Speaker 1: the best, or political system is the best. But like
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Speaker 1: by and large, by the time you're fifteen or eighteen
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Speaker 1: or twenty, you're probably going to be a version of
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Speaker 1: what you grew up in and not having given that
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Speaker 1: a lot of critical thinking, and you're a byproduct of that.
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Speaker 1: Any has that got anything to do with genetics or
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Speaker 1: is that just cultural and social programming?
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Speaker 2: Well, that's an excellent question, and I of like the
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Speaker 2: way you segued into that, because there's a whole chapter
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Speaker 2: in my book about Meet your Beliefs, and we talk
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Speaker 2: about these sorts of things. And it does seem that
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Speaker 2: the human brain, and even non primate brains to a
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Speaker 2: small extent, non human primate brains to a small extent,
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Speaker 2: have some kind of proclivity towards assigning agency to things
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Speaker 2: that really don't require it. But our mind is oriented
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Speaker 2: in a very cause and effect kind of way. So
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Speaker 2: if we see effects in the world that we can't explain,
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Speaker 2: that makes our brain very uncomfortable. So we seem to
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Speaker 2: be wired to subscribing some sort of cause to an
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Speaker 2: effect we can't explain, like bad weather or bad things
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Speaker 2: happening to good people, you know, a family member dying.
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Speaker 2: There needs to be some sort of cause for that
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Speaker 2: effect in our brain. And it's almost universal, you know.
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Speaker 2: Religion is a very universal thing amongst humans, which means
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Speaker 2: there's something biological connected to it, which I find fascinating.
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Speaker 2: And obviously these are just hypotheses. There's no concrete data
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Speaker 2: on this, but it's see I think I worded it
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Speaker 2: in the book like we are all born with like
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Speaker 2: an electrical outlet, and different religions are the appliances that
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Speaker 2: can plug into it. And just like you said, the
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Speaker 2: religion that you have, more than likely is the same
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Speaker 2: one that your parents or maybe your community shared, So
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Speaker 2: your choice of religion is kind of a delusion. It's
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Speaker 2: no different than the language that you speak, the religion
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Speaker 2: you were born into. And like you said, a lot
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Speaker 2: of people don't critically think about it because it is
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Speaker 2: so entrenched. It is so ingrained by that point, it
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Speaker 2: just like the God's honest truth, no pun intended. So yeah,
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Speaker 2: and I think that's a really useful way of looking
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Speaker 2: at it, and it kind of explains why an appeal
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Speaker 2: to something supernatural is universal in all cultures, manifested by religion,
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Speaker 2: yet it has all these different nuances. So all of
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Speaker 2: the I think there's some there's some catalog out there
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Speaker 2: that has like three thousand different religions have been invented
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Speaker 2: by humans over time. It's an astronomical number.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right, it's like twelve twelve major religions
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Speaker 1: and three to four thousand monorn religions.
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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, so all of them can't be right.
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Speaker 2: And my philosophy is that means all of them are
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Speaker 2: probably wrong. So what And then, just like you, Craig,
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Speaker 2: I grew up in a religious household, Catholic to be precise.
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Speaker 2: But when I got to be about seventeen or eighteen
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Speaker 2: and I learned about evolution and science and all these
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Speaker 2: other alternative hypotheses that made a lot more sense to
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Speaker 2: my mind than Adam and Eve and some you know,
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Speaker 2: you know, great being in the sky sending people to
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Speaker 2: heaven and hell, and this notion of an afterlife and
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Speaker 2: the fact that we have souls. None of that really
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Speaker 2: made sense to me, but I had faith in it
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Speaker 2: for about seventeen years, just kind of dusted the questions
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Speaker 2: under the rug, as good religious people usually do, you know,
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Speaker 2: because if you think about those things, you'll go to hell.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: There's a lot of fear based in a lot of
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Speaker 2: religions which deters people from thinking about it, which I
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Speaker 2: think is utterly horrible and a terrible thing to teach children.
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Speaker 2: But once I don't know where the I guess the
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Speaker 2: courage to defy that prohibition of asking questions and critically
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Speaker 2: thinking about your faith came from. Probably as I learned
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Speaker 2: more about science and appreciated that other people had these
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Speaker 2: same questions. I got a little more brave, if you will.
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Speaker 2: I'm a little more comfortable entertaining those sorts of questions.
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Speaker 2: And I found that science explains so much so better
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Speaker 2: that I gravitated to that as the model of my
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Speaker 2: world rather than anything supernatural. Now that said, I never
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Speaker 2: want to bash religion. I never want to bash people
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Speaker 2: of faith. I have many friends who are religious. I
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Speaker 2: have many family members who are, and I don't hold
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Speaker 2: anything against them for maintaining the beliefs that they have
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Speaker 2: have And I would just ask people to have that same,
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Speaker 2: you know, curiosity and respect for someone who believed, who
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Speaker 2: believes in something very different. So I loved aspects of
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Speaker 2: religion that we're based in, like community. I think that's
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Speaker 2: a really important factor, and I love the most of
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Speaker 2: the moral system. There are some things in various religions
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Speaker 2: that make a lot of sense to me, and that
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Speaker 2: those are behaviors that I wanted to continue. But there
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Speaker 2: are other things that religion can tell you to do
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Speaker 2: that just don't make any sense at all and actually
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Speaker 2: seem to be against some of the tenets of the religion.
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Speaker 2: So being an atheist, I can jettison the beliefs that
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Speaker 2: don't make any sense to me or that I find
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Speaker 2: to be unkind or unfair. But I can keep the
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Speaker 2: beliefs that I leave are healthy, and evidence can guide
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Speaker 2: you into what beliefs are important to keep and what
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Speaker 2: you can jettison.
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Speaker 1: I love it.
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Speaker 2: Sorry, I didn't mean the launch in two of this
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Speaker 2: huge sermon, but it is Sunday here, so that that's
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Speaker 2: my that's my that's my sermon for the day.
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Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful for a scientist. That was a good sermon. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I think I've you know, I think people get sometimes
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Speaker 1: when I talk about religion, I'm really talking about not
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Speaker 1: is religion right or wrong? Good or bad, not not
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Speaker 1: which theology or which doctrine or which like what's what's more,
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Speaker 1: it's what's right or wrong or what's likely or was there?
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Speaker 1: Is there really a god? Or is there? But for me,
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Speaker 1: it's more about I'm fascinated with the way people think
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Speaker 1: about religion and the way people behave around religion, and
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Speaker 1: that almost these cults of thought, I call them thought cults,
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Speaker 1: where you have to think a certain way to be
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Speaker 1: in our group. Now forget that it's a religion, it
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Speaker 1: could be any group of people, but you have to
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Speaker 1: bide by these thoughts. And if you don't agree with
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Speaker 1: these thoughts or ideas or constructs or whatever, then you're
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Speaker 1: not in the group, or at the very least, you're
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Speaker 1: rebellious and you're in sin. Right, Well, that's a really
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Speaker 1: good way to control people and to instill them with
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Speaker 1: fear and guilt for not for discouraging them from thinking critically.
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Speaker 1: I remember being in church and thinking that does not
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Speaker 1: make sense to me. Like the first time was so
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Speaker 1: when I was I don't know, maybe ten years old
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Speaker 1: up until then, when I would go to church, which
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Speaker 1: was Mass in the Catholic kind of reality, and women,
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Speaker 1: ladies were not allowed on the altar. And then one
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Speaker 1: day I'm at church and I'm sitting next to mom
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Speaker 1: and dad and there's a lady on the altar and
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Speaker 1: I'm like, Mum, why is there a lady on the altar?
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Speaker 1: That's a sin? And then she went, no, the pope
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Speaker 1: changed it, it's not a and I'm thinking, well, it's
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Speaker 1: or it's not a sin. It's like, can't be a
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Speaker 1: sin on Friday, and it's not a sin on Sunday.
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Speaker 1: Like that doesn't make sense. I'm like, well, what do
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Speaker 1: you mean? And I remember thinking, oh, these are not absolutes,
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Speaker 1: Like obviously I didn't think it that clearly at ten.
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Speaker 1: But I think also, Bill, humans hate uncertainty and they
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Speaker 1: hate not knowing. They hate not we hate not knowing.
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Speaker 1: And and so you if you know that there's a
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Speaker 1: God and you know that this is the right book,
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Speaker 1: and if you know that if you do these things
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Speaker 1: your eternal you know, heavenly whatever is guaranteed, well then
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Speaker 1: of course I know, and you don't know. And if
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Speaker 1: you don't align with me, you're the enemy versus. Look,
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Speaker 1: this is what I believe and think, but I could
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Speaker 1: be wrong, Like who says that I could be Okay,
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Speaker 1: this is what I currently think, and maybe I think
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Speaker 1: that because that's my programming and my family's influence and
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Speaker 1: my upbringing. This is what I believe, this is my faith. However,
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Speaker 1: I don't know. This is what I believe, But that's
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Speaker 1: not knowledge, because if I had absolutely unequivocal knowledge, proof evidence,
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Speaker 1: I wouldn't need faith anymore.
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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, And then those are the sorts of
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Speaker 2: questions that ran through my mind as I got older
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Speaker 2: and started learning about all these different things in school,
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Speaker 2: different religions around the world, different cultures, and it made
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Speaker 2: me start to question, well, why is my faith the
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Speaker 2: quote right one? How do I know if I haven't
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Speaker 2: even tried all these other ones? What if they're all wrong?
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Speaker 2: So I believe you're absolutely right, And there is a
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Speaker 2: great comfort in pretending to know the answers, or even
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Speaker 2: lying to yourself to the point where you just don't
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Speaker 2: even REALI you're lying to yourself. You just accept it
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Speaker 2: as fact. I've also had discussions with religious people, and
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Speaker 2: again I understand how they feel because I've been on
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Speaker 2: both sides of the fence, you know, having lived with
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Speaker 2: religion for the first like eighteen years of my life.
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Speaker 2: I know exactly what it feels like to believe and why.
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Speaker 2: So it's a really wonderful freedom for me. You know,
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Speaker 2: when I was able to leave all those questions behind
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Speaker 2: and all these things about faith that just didn't make sense,
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Speaker 2: all these goofy things about supernatural you know, God's goddesses, heaven, hell, angels, devils,
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Speaker 2: all these things that you just can't see or prove,
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Speaker 2: it just felt so refreshing to be able to break
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Speaker 2: away from that and get rid of all those questions
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Speaker 2: and turn and face reality, the real world. Focus my
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Speaker 2: efforts on scientific method in trying to figure out how
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Speaker 2: people how the universe really works, because science has a
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Speaker 2: long history now of being the best tool that humans
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Speaker 2: devised in order to get as close to the truth
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Speaker 2: as we possibly can. Religion has failed catastrophically when it
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Speaker 2: comes to trying to figure out how the real world works.
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Speaker 2: What they are really good at is providing psychological tools
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Speaker 2: for people to get along. End mass again, another pun,
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Speaker 2: I meant, you know, in large numbers, because this is
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Speaker 2: really interesting, Craig. I don't know if you know this,
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Speaker 2: but humans have been around a lot longer than religion has.
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Speaker 2: Oh okay, so for people who accept evolution and that
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Speaker 2: there was proto humans before us, and then you know cavemen.
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Speaker 2: You know, there didn't used to be any sort of religion.
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Speaker 2: There didn't used to be gods. And there's actually an
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Speaker 2: evolutionary process that anthropologists have put together for how how
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Speaker 2: human beings became religious, and you can you can track
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Speaker 2: the validity of this hypothesis by looking at hunter gatherer
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Speaker 2: tribes that still exist today. So hunter gatherers were probably
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Speaker 2: very similar to what our ancestors were very long ago.
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Speaker 2: And the way that gods first started forming were probably
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Speaker 2: through ancestor gods, and these would have been these would
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Speaker 2: have been relatives who have passed on but still speak
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Speaker 2: to the living that would have that has argued to
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Speaker 2: have been like the first semblance of a supernatural element,
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Speaker 2: a world beyond. And you have to always remember that
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Speaker 2: we are the first species that seems to be capable
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Speaker 2: of it an extraordinary capacity for imagination, and we can
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Speaker 2: hold past, present, and future all in our mind at once.
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Speaker 2: I don't think that's been demonstrated for too many other animals.
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Speaker 2: We're very unique in this regard, and as a species
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Speaker 2: that must seek a cause and effect relationship or else,
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Speaker 2: our mind gets very uncomfortable and anxious. We started to
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Speaker 2: describe events we couldn't explain to our ancestors that have
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Speaker 2: passed on. Okay, And if something good happened, it was
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Speaker 2: because all this wonderful person was looking out for us.
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Speaker 2: If something bad happened, it was because, oh, maybe we
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Speaker 2: offended our ancestors in some way and we need to
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Speaker 2: atone for that. That worked really well for small tribal units.
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Speaker 2: But as societies grew larger and larger, you know, what
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Speaker 2: became a problem breaking laws, breaking rules because the more
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Speaker 2: people there were, the harder it was to keep track
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Speaker 2: of who was cheating or who was being bad. So
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Speaker 2: we needed an eye in the sky, if you will.
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Speaker 2: And that's where a single angry god came from, Okay,
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Speaker 2: a punitive god. And before that, as you probably know,
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Speaker 2: if you study like Roman or Greek societies, they had
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Speaker 2: lots of different gods. Native Americans lots of different gods,
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Speaker 2: and in fact, many of them were like environmental. They would,
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Speaker 2: you know, ascribe agency to things like the clouds and
19:39
Speaker 2: pray to the clouds to make it rain. You know,
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Speaker 2: there were rain gods, there were sun gods, and all
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Speaker 2: of these were tied into things that would help the
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Speaker 2: community survive a good harvest, you know, a good hunt,
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Speaker 2: things like that. So there's what I'm trying to say
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Speaker 2: is there's actually an evolutionary progression of what humans experienced
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Speaker 2: is supernatural. It started out with maybe ghosts or ancestor
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Speaker 2: gods of people who we knew, who passed on family members'
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Speaker 2: relative friends. And then it became as humans grew in size,
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Speaker 2: we needed more gods to look out for us, so
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Speaker 2: there were gods for everything, and then it evolved into monotheism.
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Speaker 2: That seems to be the most recent evolutionary step outside
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Speaker 2: of people doing away with supernatural elements altogether, because I
20:37
Speaker 2: would say the end of the evolution of religion was
20:42
Speaker 2: putting your faith, if you will, in science, because science
20:46
Speaker 2: came along roughly. I mean, I think humans have always
20:49
Speaker 2: been doing science, but it really started to be become,
20:54
Speaker 2: you know, a popular way to assess truth during the Renaissance.
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Speaker 2: It's maybe a few centuries earlier than that, but once
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Speaker 2: we figured out that we could actually learn about the
21:06
Speaker 2: real world more effectively by testing and observing, generating hypotheses,
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Speaker 2: and then using evidence to dictate what is true from false.
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Speaker 2: That became the tool that we now use to move forward.
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Speaker 2: So I think a lot of atheists respect the fact
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Speaker 2: that religion is intimately woven into our psychology, and it's
21:31
Speaker 2: been that way for thousands of years, and that's why
21:34
Speaker 2: it's so hard for humans to shake Today. Science has
21:38
Speaker 2: only been around for a few centuries. It's still relatively
21:41
Speaker 2: new way of thinking. But I think ultimately, ultimately, I
21:46
Speaker 2: don't know how long this will take, but I think
21:49
Speaker 2: an appeal to the supernatural will gradually fade away. And
21:55
Speaker 2: that's not to say that the sense of community or
21:57
Speaker 2: the sense of morality is going to fade away. Those
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Speaker 2: elements of religion I think are universal because the morals
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Speaker 2: that we have are actually embedded in our genetics and
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Speaker 2: in our behavior, in our psychology, So I don't think
22:11
Speaker 2: they're necessarily religious. But I think that might be one
22:14
Speaker 2: of the bridges that people can use to start waking
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Speaker 2: up and walking away from these supernatural elements that just
22:23
Speaker 2: don't make any sense at all and aren't supported by
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Speaker 2: a shred of evidence.
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Speaker 1: Yeah wow, so good, And I think so a couple
22:33
Speaker 1: of things. One of the challenges for many people, whatever
22:40
Speaker 1: their belief system, whether it's like being a veganist is
22:44
Speaker 1: the only dacent white to eight or Carlton Football Club,
22:48
Speaker 1: which is a team in Australia in the IFL they're
22:50
Speaker 1: the best, or the you know, the Broncos are the
22:52
Speaker 1: best in the NFL, or or Democrats. This is or
22:56
Speaker 1: whatever it is the belief system that we have, or
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Speaker 1: whether or not it's you know or you know, Catholicism
23:03
Speaker 1: or you know, Evangelical Christianity or whatever. It is the
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Speaker 1: thing that we are intertwined with, the thing that we believe,
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Speaker 1: the thing that we live, the thing that we advocate,
23:15
Speaker 1: the wheelbarrow that we're pushing, the philosophical, ideological, theological wheelbarrow
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Speaker 1: that we are pushing, becomes our identity, at least in part. Absolutely,
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Speaker 1: when you question my religion, doctor Bill, you question me,
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Speaker 1: and so I'm going to push back because that's offensive.
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Speaker 2: And I did that as a kid. Yeah, yeah, I
23:40
Speaker 2: lived that life.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's like you go, I always say to
23:46
Speaker 1: you know when you do that. I love doing a
23:48
Speaker 1: deep dive on the philosophical like, well, who am I? Well,
23:50
Speaker 1: I'm not a body. I've got a body, but I'm
23:52
Speaker 1: not a body, and I've got beliefs, but I'm not them.
23:55
Speaker 1: And and you know, I've got a couple of you know,
23:59
Speaker 1: I mean credentials, but they're not man, I'm not Then.
24:02
Speaker 1: I've got a bank balance, I've got a car, I've
24:03
Speaker 1: got a house, I've got things, but I'm not things.
24:05
Speaker 1: And you start to kind of figure out, try to
24:08
Speaker 1: figure out this, you know, kind of almost circular who
24:12
Speaker 1: the fuck am I? But realizing that that that i'm
24:19
Speaker 1: that my belief the things that I attach myself to
24:22
Speaker 1: are really just me on a level giving myself an identity,
24:26
Speaker 1: and that we don't like I think the irony is
24:31
Speaker 1: for me anyway, And it's really only been in my
24:35
Speaker 1: sixty years a relevant kind of advent or occurrence. I
24:40
Speaker 1: feel more liberated when I say I don't know. Yeah,
24:46
Speaker 1: like I don't know.
24:47
Speaker 2: It circles back to the philosophy of uncertainty that you
24:51
Speaker 2: alluded to earlier. And I think that's a tremendously freeing
24:55
Speaker 2: and an absolutely or absolutely healthier way to live. You
25:00
Speaker 2: know that it's really hard to describe how wonderful it
25:05
Speaker 2: is to be able to say, you know, is there
25:08
Speaker 2: a God? I don't know? That that's just it is
25:13
Speaker 2: to me, and and I guess it's the way my
25:15
Speaker 2: mind works that brings me more comfort than having to
25:20
Speaker 2: have an answer. You know, my mind doesn't get anxious
25:24
Speaker 2: in the face of uncertainty. If it did, I could
25:27
Speaker 2: not function as a scientist. As a scientist, I'm surrounded
25:30
Speaker 2: by uncertainty and mysteries every day. But to me, that's
25:34
Speaker 2: what really makes life compelling and meaningful to live is
25:37
Speaker 2: being able to use our human mind to try to
25:41
Speaker 2: figure out how the world works or how the body works,
25:45
Speaker 2: and using science to do it, because religion will not
25:49
Speaker 2: be able to tell you those answers.
25:52
Speaker 1: And I think also when you say, okay, I believe,
25:57
Speaker 1: I be and see and that is that is true.
26:00
Speaker 1: I don't have evidence, But for me, I don't have
26:03
Speaker 1: absolute evidence or proof. But that is for me, that's
26:06
Speaker 1: the truth. And that then when I believe that now one,
26:10
Speaker 1: I've built myself an ideological prison that I have to
26:14
Speaker 1: live in. And if anybody disagrees with the prison or
26:20
Speaker 1: my ideas or my beliefs, then they're kind of my
26:23
Speaker 1: enemy now right. And also when I say, with absolute
26:27
Speaker 1: certainty or assumed certainty, I am right about this thing
26:32
Speaker 1: for which I have no evidence, I'm also making myself unteachable,
26:37
Speaker 1: and I'm also just backstroking in a sea of confirmation bias,
26:41
Speaker 1: where it doesn't matter how logical, rational, enlightened, wise somebody
26:46
Speaker 1: else is.
26:47
Speaker 3: If it isn't what I think, you can fuck off.
26:50
Speaker 3: Yeah your growth is stunted. Yeah yeah, you might as
26:55
Speaker 3: well just cease living because you're not going to grow
26:59
Speaker 3: any more. You're not going to learn anything new. Where's
27:02
Speaker 3: the joy in life in that?
27:05
Speaker 2: So? So, yeah, it is very much like a prison,
27:08
Speaker 2: and that describes how I kind of felt as a teenager.
27:12
Speaker 2: You know, there's there was this big, wide world out
27:15
Speaker 2: there with all these other people who believe differently than
27:19
Speaker 2: what I was taught. Yet I was told that they're
27:22
Speaker 2: all going to hell, and it's like this doesn't make
27:25
Speaker 2: any sense. This isn't kind, this isn't warm hearted, this
27:31
Speaker 2: isn't the Jesus that I was taught, you know. So
27:35
Speaker 2: it just there was so much cognitive dissonance that I
27:38
Speaker 2: experienced as a kid. Finally being able to close the
27:44
Speaker 2: door on religion was one of the best things that
27:46
Speaker 2: have ever happened to me in my life.
27:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's And also even when you think, like
27:55
Speaker 1: I used to think about this just logically, and okay,
28:00
Speaker 1: you go, all right, well, if there's all these religions,
28:03
Speaker 1: I mean, every person in every religion believes that their
28:08
Speaker 1: religion is the right religion. Well even if we just go, well, logically,
28:12
Speaker 1: that's not true, like we have to like that can't
28:15
Speaker 1: be true that everybody's right because we all have different theologies, doctrines, whatever.
28:22
Speaker 1: But even in the middle of that, you know, it's
28:27
Speaker 1: like logic doesn't seem to get a seat at the table.
28:30
Speaker 1: Like what has seems to have all the seats is
28:33
Speaker 1: emotion and really, more specifically fear.
28:38
Speaker 2: Yeah. Faith literally means you have to leave reason at
28:42
Speaker 2: the door. You cannot use that as a system to
28:48
Speaker 2: validate or falsify your beliefs. You just have to have faith.
28:53
Speaker 2: And to me, that's the ultimate F word. Okay, that's
28:56
Speaker 2: the f balm For me, Faith is a dirty word
28:59
Speaker 2: in the universe I live in because we don't need
29:04
Speaker 2: to have faith. We have a brain that can figure
29:07
Speaker 2: things out, So why not do that. And if we
29:11
Speaker 2: do encounter something that we're not bright enough to figure
29:14
Speaker 2: out yet, just don't draw any conclusions at all. Okay,
29:19
Speaker 2: I just I was literally be comfortable, be comfortable with
29:23
Speaker 2: that you know.
29:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt. I was literally tald that
29:28
Speaker 1: I needed to think less and believe more that I
29:31
Speaker 1: was literally told that. I was told a lot of people. Yeah,
29:36
Speaker 1: my problem, my my thinking, my questioning. It wasn't critical thinking.
29:42
Speaker 1: It was lack of faith.
29:45
Speaker 2: And I was told it was going to make me miserable,
29:48
Speaker 2: you know. I was told, just believe this, you'll be happy,
29:51
Speaker 2: You'll be fine. And I think that is why Karl
29:54
Speaker 2: Marx I believe it was referred to religion as the
29:57
Speaker 2: ultimate drug. It's an opiate, because yeah, you can suck
30:03
Speaker 2: at the nipple of religion and get nourishment, but it's
30:06
Speaker 2: all an illusion, you know. So I'd rather take my
30:10
Speaker 2: chances and live in the real world and try to
30:12
Speaker 2: figure it out than just kind of plug myself into
30:16
Speaker 2: this spiritual IV unit and get pumped of artificial happiness,
30:22
Speaker 2: believing that if I'm a good person, I'll go to heaven.
30:26
Speaker 2: I'm a good person because I don't want to be
30:30
Speaker 2: a dick, you know. I think it makes sense to
30:33
Speaker 2: be good to one another. Okay. The Golden Rule is
30:37
Speaker 2: seen in non human primates, so it is deeply embedded
30:41
Speaker 2: into our psyche. It's been around a lot longer than
30:44
Speaker 2: religion has. And it's a rule that just I think
30:47
Speaker 2: you can make any kind of ethical decision simply by
30:53
Speaker 2: going for kindness. And this is one of the one
30:57
Speaker 2: of the things that Buddhism teaches. You know, I wanted
30:59
Speaker 2: to go back a little bit about what you were
31:01
Speaker 2: saying about. You know, who the hell are we? What
31:05
Speaker 2: is a human being? What is this thing that I
31:07
Speaker 2: call myself? And Buddhism has an answer for that, and
31:11
Speaker 2: it's basically, the self is an illusion. You know, this
31:15
Speaker 2: thing in our brain that we build up to represent
31:18
Speaker 2: our self is it is not a static entity. It
31:22
Speaker 2: certainly isn't a soul. Neurobiologically, that just doesn't make any
31:27
Speaker 2: sense anymore. But yeah, the self is an illusion and
31:31
Speaker 2: it changes minute by minute.
31:33
Speaker 1: You know, we're not the.
31:34
Speaker 2: Same people we were a week ago, month ago, or
31:38
Speaker 2: you know, years ago, but we failed to realize that.
31:42
Speaker 2: So Buddhism kind of teaches, you know, one of the
31:46
Speaker 2: tenets of if you can understand this concept that the
31:49
Speaker 2: self is an illusion, you start to let go of
31:52
Speaker 2: your ego. And the ego is one of the reasons
31:57
Speaker 2: why we have so many problems in this world. If
32:01
Speaker 2: everyone was able to suspend their ego and just be
32:07
Speaker 2: compassionate for other people. Realizing that we're all in the
32:12
Speaker 2: same boat, we're all in this same rock that's going
32:15
Speaker 2: around the sun, and we're all in this grand show together.
32:21
Speaker 2: Why not help each other out? Why not be kind
32:24
Speaker 2: to one another rather than satiate this artificial construction called
32:29
Speaker 2: the ego. I find it very I find it very appealing.
32:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. And for those people who are listening, going,
32:38
Speaker 1: but doctor Bill, now you're talking about now you're quoting
32:42
Speaker 1: a religion, but talking about Buddhism. But Buddhism is a
32:47
Speaker 1: philosophy more than a religion, Like it's there's no God
32:52
Speaker 1: in per se in Buddhism. Am I correct.
32:58
Speaker 2: There's various flavors of Bouddhism, but by and large you're right.
33:01
Speaker 2: It is more of a philosophical it's a way of thinking.
33:06
Speaker 2: But I believe there are some sects of Buddhism that
33:10
Speaker 2: have supernatural components. I obviously do not subscribe to those.
33:15
Speaker 2: There's a wonderful book if listeners want to check it out,
33:19
Speaker 2: called I think it's called Why Buddhism Is Right, and
33:23
Speaker 2: it's written by a science journalist named Robert Wright W.
33:28
Speaker 2: R Ight, and he scientifically analyzes some of the major
33:34
Speaker 2: tenets of Buddhism in a very compelling, evidence based way
33:39
Speaker 2: that leads him to the conclusion that if anyone wants
33:42
Speaker 2: to follow a quote unquote religion, Buddhism really has evidence
33:46
Speaker 2: to back up the psychological tools that provides its followers.
33:51
Speaker 2: So it's really worth looking into. I've done quite a
33:55
Speaker 2: bit of it myself. I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist,
33:58
Speaker 2: but I do like a lot of the philosophical arguments
34:03
Speaker 2: that the Buddha has made and that some of my
34:07
Speaker 2: favorite authors, Buddhist authors, have written in modern times. It
34:13
Speaker 2: just really provides you with a really great worldview, a
34:16
Speaker 2: very comforting one at that, and it promotes above all
34:21
Speaker 2: other things, kindness, compassion, and nonviolence. And if everyone could
34:26
Speaker 2: practice that, I don't think we'd have a lot of
34:29
Speaker 2: problems in this world, you know so, And Buddhism doesn't
34:34
Speaker 2: have monopoly on kindness and compassion. Those threads can be
34:38
Speaker 2: seen in many different religions all around the world, and
34:41
Speaker 2: in fact, that is part of the reason why these
34:45
Speaker 2: religions were invented so that people wouldn't be jerks to
34:48
Speaker 2: one another, so that people would believe that there's an
34:51
Speaker 2: eye in the sky with some kind of you know,
34:55
Speaker 2: Excel spreadsheet tallying up their behavior is good and bad
34:59
Speaker 2: and neutral, and that would dictate their fate in the afterlife.
35:04
Speaker 2: If you go through life sincerely believing that your actions
35:08
Speaker 2: are being judged, you're probably going to be a better person.
35:13
Speaker 2: And that's why religion was effective, you know, until science
35:18
Speaker 2: came along and told us that, hey, these morals are
35:20
Speaker 2: already embedded in our psyche. Even non human primates have them.
35:24
Speaker 2: They weren't delivered to us by Moses or some other
35:29
Speaker 2: religious figure. They were already there.
35:36
Speaker 1: Is So when we think about the relationship between you know,
35:44
Speaker 1: genes and like for example, I know you spoke about
35:49
Speaker 1: this in your book quite a bit, but just if
35:51
Speaker 1: you could unpack and we're doing a little bit of
35:54
Speaker 1: a left turn, but free will and I don't know,
35:58
Speaker 1: that's a whole part cast in itself. Yeah, can we
36:03
Speaker 1: like I think about We'll come back to that in
36:07
Speaker 1: one second. I talk to people about I say, maybe
36:09
Speaker 1: the biggest challenge we have is managing our own mind,
36:13
Speaker 1: because I in a way like our mind is almost
36:17
Speaker 1: like our operational headquarters. It's where we process data, we
36:21
Speaker 1: feel to the external world. We give things meaning, we
36:24
Speaker 1: tell stories, we rate risk, we assess, you know. And
36:30
Speaker 1: then and then I think, but, like, how do I
36:33
Speaker 1: even manage my mind? Because the tool that I'm using
36:37
Speaker 1: to assess my mind is my mind? You know. It's
36:40
Speaker 1: like it's this almost you know, this mind fuck. It's
36:46
Speaker 1: like I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out how
36:50
Speaker 1: I can have a level of objectivity about something I
36:54
Speaker 1: can't be objective about because I'm you know, like I'm
36:58
Speaker 1: looking through this window that is my beliefs and values,
37:02
Speaker 1: trying to get clarity. But I don't know what I'm saying.
37:06
Speaker 1: But talk to us about the mind and free will
37:08
Speaker 1: and even the idea of objectivity.
37:13
Speaker 2: Well, I think part of what you're describing goes back
37:16
Speaker 2: to this concept of the self, and this is an
37:20
Speaker 2: image that our brain forms to kind of help us
37:24
Speaker 2: navigate the real world. But it gets very egocentric. The
37:29
Speaker 2: self is obviously most concerned about our own being, surviving
37:35
Speaker 2: and reproducing. On a second level, it's concerned with those
37:39
Speaker 2: who are like us, who share our genetic makeup, our family. Okay,
37:43
Speaker 2: and then maybe there's another cycle that extends further for
37:47
Speaker 2: more distant relatives or even friends who seem to have
37:51
Speaker 2: a lot in common with us, because they're probably similar
37:53
Speaker 2: at a genetic level too. So the self and genes
37:58
Speaker 2: are very intimately tied together. We are reproductive machines, and
38:04
Speaker 2: our genes basically want to replicate themselves, and many of
38:08
Speaker 2: our behaviors are rooted in survival and ultimately reproduction, and
38:16
Speaker 2: then then you know the survival of our progeny as well.
38:20
Speaker 2: So the ego, the self, and genetics are all very
38:23
Speaker 2: tightly woven in to one another. But what gets really cool, Craig,
38:29
Speaker 2: is you can kind of measure using MRI what goes
38:37
Speaker 2: on in the brain when people contemplate themselves, and you
38:42
Speaker 2: can see distinct patterns light up on the brain imaging machines.
38:47
Speaker 2: Now you that person takes LSD and one of the
38:51
Speaker 2: main thing people describe when they take drugs like LSD
38:58
Speaker 2: is they lose their s of self, And you can
39:02
Speaker 2: see this in the brain imaging experiments. You know, the
39:07
Speaker 2: pattern that when people think about themselves evaporates, it's gone,
39:13
Speaker 2: so they truly feel that their self is dissolving. And
39:18
Speaker 2: the flip side of that. The other side of that
39:20
Speaker 2: coin is that they feel more connected to the rest
39:25
Speaker 2: of the universe, including other people. So I think that's
39:29
Speaker 2: pretty amazing. But you know what is even really cool
39:33
Speaker 2: when people do loving kindness meditation, which is a form
39:38
Speaker 2: of meditation where you just think loving thoughts about other people.
39:42
Speaker 2: You're wishing them well, You're hoping they have their dreams
39:46
Speaker 2: come true. Not just people you know, but strangers and
39:50
Speaker 2: even enemies. When you image someone who is thinking about
39:55
Speaker 2: loving kindness, their brain looks like it's on LSD. Self
40:00
Speaker 2: dissolves and they are more connected to the universe. So
40:05
Speaker 2: there may be some sort of biological process that goes
40:10
Speaker 2: on in the brain that helps us keep an image
40:14
Speaker 2: of our self together, but that image dissolves when we
40:18
Speaker 2: think about helping other people. It's pretty fascinating. So there's
40:22
Speaker 2: a real, you know, bona fide psychological component to self
40:26
Speaker 2: and non self and help, you know, being to the
40:31
Speaker 2: point where you can let go of your ego and
40:35
Speaker 2: become a part of the whole and just be a
40:39
Speaker 2: contributor that helps everybody you know get along better. And
40:44
Speaker 2: I don't mean get along in a sense of peace,
40:46
Speaker 2: but get along in life. You know, give help where
40:49
Speaker 2: it is needed, that sort of thing. So you can
40:54
Speaker 2: really see there's some wonderful ways that science can actually
40:57
Speaker 2: help us understand religion and morality. Now, you mentioned free will,
41:06
Speaker 2: so we can circle back to that if you like.
41:10
Speaker 2: But did I answer the other parts of the question? Okay,
41:14
Speaker 2: was that kind of what you were aiming for?
41:16
Speaker 1: I think so, I'm just captivated anyway, keep going. I've
41:19
Speaker 1: got a couple more questions before we wind up. But yeah,
41:22
Speaker 1: talk to us about because I think we like to
41:26
Speaker 1: think we're really in charge of everything on planet us.
41:29
Speaker 1: You know, in my world, I'm in charge. Or maybe
41:32
Speaker 1: I'm just a passenger in my own life and my genetics,
41:35
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm just a spect an unwilling spectator. I
41:40
Speaker 1: feel like I'm a bit of both. Sometimes I'm driving
41:42
Speaker 1: the bus, sometimes I'm in the backseat.
41:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's a survival advantage to that, you know,
41:49
Speaker 2: there's a survival advantage to thinking that you have agency
41:54
Speaker 2: over things. But yeah, science has done some experiments starting
42:01
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighty eighties with a fellow named Benjamin Libett,
42:06
Speaker 2: and I talk about this in my book as well,
42:09
Speaker 2: just some really jaw dropping experiments that made the scientists
42:16
Speaker 2: who discovered them question his own results for the rest
42:21
Speaker 2: of his life. But they've been repeated many times in
42:25
Speaker 2: different ways by a people all around the world. But
42:29
Speaker 2: the thing that he discovered was that he would hook
42:33
Speaker 2: people up to brain imaging machine and basically ask them
42:39
Speaker 2: to look at a clock and then at a certain
42:43
Speaker 2: time they would decide whether to press a button or
42:46
Speaker 2: something like that. There's been a lot of permutations on
42:49
Speaker 2: this experiment. What he found was that there was activity
42:55
Speaker 2: in the brain before people were conscious that they pressed
42:59
Speaker 2: the button. So, in other words, the brain decided what
43:04
Speaker 2: it was going to do on a subconscious level, and
43:08
Speaker 2: then our consciousness got wind of it and thought it
43:12
Speaker 2: made a story that, oh, I decided to press the
43:15
Speaker 2: button so wildly. That really blew the minds of a
43:23
Speaker 2: lot of people. It was basically saying that subconsciously we
43:27
Speaker 2: make decisions, we do them, and then our consciousness tries
43:32
Speaker 2: to explain what we've done, and that is what we
43:36
Speaker 2: misperceive as free will. So and again, that has been
43:43
Speaker 2: done many, many times, and scientists have gotten to the
43:48
Speaker 2: point where they can look at the brain's activity and
43:53
Speaker 2: predict exactly when they actually when the participant will press
43:56
Speaker 2: the button. So even the scientists now will know when
44:01
Speaker 2: they're going to press the button based on the brain scan.
44:04
Speaker 2: It's really pretty remarkable. But the person in the experiment
44:10
Speaker 2: doesn't know when they're going to press it, you know,
44:12
Speaker 2: they still think they're making these decisions. So, you know
44:17
Speaker 2: what else is cool. This also explains experiments where you
44:22
Speaker 2: can bring people into a room and I'm not getting
44:26
Speaker 2: the details of this experiment right because it's off the
44:28
Speaker 2: top of my head, but you can set up an
44:30
Speaker 2: experiment where people look at maybe two pieces of art
44:36
Speaker 2: and they pick out which one is their favorite, and
44:40
Speaker 2: then you bring them back in, you know, maybe thirty
44:43
Speaker 2: days later, and you tell them that this is the
44:50
Speaker 2: piece of art that you picked as your favorite. But
44:53
Speaker 2: it was wrong. Okay, they swapped it on them. They
44:57
Speaker 2: actually told them that the one they didn't pick was
44:59
Speaker 2: the one that they picked. And seventy five percent of
45:03
Speaker 2: a time people didn't realize that the investigator swapped it
45:09
Speaker 2: on them, and they would invent reasons why they thought
45:12
Speaker 2: that one was the better painting. Wow, when in fact
45:16
Speaker 2: that was not the painting that they selected thirty days ago. Wow.
45:21
Speaker 2: So that kind of mirrors exactly what Benjamin Libett discovered
45:27
Speaker 2: when he was doing his free will experiment. We're not
45:31
Speaker 2: making these decisions. We have a brain that it tries
45:34
Speaker 2: to explain what we've done. This also explains a lot
45:38
Speaker 2: of when you do something stupid or you say something dumb,
45:42
Speaker 2: you always try to like defend yourself, right, that's your
45:46
Speaker 2: brain trying to compensate for something your subconscious did.
45:52
Speaker 1: Do you know have you heard of the artist? He's
45:54
Speaker 1: like a straight artist. He's very famous. His name's Banksy.
45:59
Speaker 2: I think the name rings a bell.
46:03
Speaker 1: Anyway, so this dude started out kind of as a
46:06
Speaker 1: graffiti artist and he ended up doing these phenomenal pieces
46:11
Speaker 1: of art, and nobody knows who he is, Like he's anonymous,
46:16
Speaker 1: but he just signs everything Banksy.
46:19
Speaker 2: It's only me.
46:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't think, well, all right, well that then
46:23
Speaker 1: I'm finished. But anyway, so if you get a Banksy will,
46:30
Speaker 1: he now does stuff. He still does, Like he just
46:32
Speaker 1: does all these pop ups where people walk down a
46:35
Speaker 1: street and at six am in the morning they see
46:38
Speaker 1: this thing that's on a wall somewhere and it's by him.
46:42
Speaker 1: But he also does other things which get auctioned off
46:46
Speaker 1: for charity and and I don't think he's really interested
46:49
Speaker 1: in well clear, and I'm interested in being known anyway
46:53
Speaker 1: that kind of fame. And I don't know how much
46:56
Speaker 1: money means to him. But so anyway, a Banksy that
47:00
Speaker 1: just done on a piece of timber, like is worth
47:02
Speaker 1: two hundred grande hundred or it sells for that. I
47:04
Speaker 1: don't know what it's worth, but if what people pay
47:08
Speaker 1: determines the value, well then it's worth that, right. So anyway,
47:11
Speaker 1: what he did, he did this experiment, and he gave
47:15
Speaker 1: this guy it was either I think it was eight pieces,
47:20
Speaker 1: eight original banksies, which is be worth well over a
47:24
Speaker 1: million dollars, like collectively, so each one was worth whatever,
47:28
Speaker 1: one hundred to two hundred grand. And this guy went
47:31
Speaker 1: to a market you know where they just sell people
47:34
Speaker 1: have stores and they sell all kinds of shit. So
47:37
Speaker 1: this guy had all the banks he's set up at
47:41
Speaker 1: a stall and he said, all original Banksy artwork, blah
47:46
Speaker 1: blah blah, and they were all for sale for like
47:49
Speaker 1: sixty to eighty dollars. Now they were actually banks the originals.
47:54
Speaker 1: You can google this everybody. I'm fucking it up a
47:56
Speaker 1: little bit, but the gist of it is right, and
48:01
Speaker 1: in the course of the day. I think of the eight,
48:03
Speaker 1: he sold four and all of them people bargained him down, right,
48:09
Speaker 1: so these things and then so then the people that
48:12
Speaker 1: then it came out. Then the people that bought the
48:14
Speaker 1: four actually sold them for like one hundred thousand dollars plus.
48:20
Speaker 1: But there were people, aren't People were walking past going well,
48:24
Speaker 1: that can't be real. Now, despite the fact that they
48:26
Speaker 1: knew who Banks he was, they liked Banks's work, and
48:30
Speaker 1: here were some original Bankses, the context, the price, the context,
48:35
Speaker 1: the set and setting didn't make sense. And despite the
48:39
Speaker 1: fact that it said and he said, no, these are real,
48:42
Speaker 1: these are authentic Banksies. All of the information was true,
48:46
Speaker 1: but the context and the setting kind of skewed. And
48:50
Speaker 1: the price, of course. And so it's so funny what
48:53
Speaker 1: people think, what people think. There was another one done
49:01
Speaker 1: recently Bill called they set Up I think it was
49:05
Speaker 1: in New York. They set up this high end shoe
49:09
Speaker 1: shop called Palesso. Like it was like this, so I
49:14
Speaker 1: think it was p A. L. E. S. S O.
49:17
Speaker 1: This beautiful logo, this beautiful they set up like, you know,
49:21
Speaker 1: like a pop up shop. Do you know what that is?
49:23
Speaker 2: Yeah?
49:24
Speaker 1: We have those, yeah, yeah, so they set up a
49:26
Speaker 1: pop up shop and they did this this invite to
49:29
Speaker 1: all these wealthy people, and so they made this totally
49:33
Speaker 1: fictitious brand Palso with all of these you know, everything
49:37
Speaker 1: was well lit all the like, the dacre was amazing.
49:41
Speaker 1: The shoes were you know, on shelves under spotlights, and
49:45
Speaker 1: all of the shoes were from Payless. Payless and Palesso
49:51
Speaker 1: was a play on Payless, right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
49:56
Speaker 1: So people were paying eight hundred dollars a thousand dollars
50:00
Speaker 1: for a pair of thirty dollars shoes, and they're all
50:03
Speaker 1: raving about how this is one of their favorite brands,
50:06
Speaker 1: and the brand coups exist and you had to justify it. Yeah,
50:11
Speaker 1: And so they sold all of these pay Less shoes,
50:15
Speaker 1: like I mean, I think they were fine shoes, right,
50:18
Speaker 1: but they certainly weren't thousand dollars shoes. And people were
50:22
Speaker 1: one thousand dollars for something that was probably worth fifty
50:25
Speaker 1: or eighty and happy with their purchase. And you know,
50:29
Speaker 1: there were camera crews, there were media because this was
50:32
Speaker 1: a launch, it was a new outlet. And as people
50:35
Speaker 1: are coming out, they're talking about the shoes and how
50:38
Speaker 1: beautiful they are and they love the brand and how
50:40
Speaker 1: it's going to flourish, and yeah, and it was all bullshit.
50:43
Speaker 1: It was all psychology.
50:47
Speaker 2: It's very humbling to hear experiments like that, but you know,
50:52
Speaker 2: it's also echoes this concept that we really don't make
50:58
Speaker 2: decisions based on reason and life logic sometimes, you know,
51:02
Speaker 2: we are basically making decisions on what we're told or
51:06
Speaker 2: what we're thinking that we perceive in the environment. Similar
51:10
Speaker 2: studies have been done many times with wine. People are
51:14
Speaker 2: told that they're drinking a two hundred dollars bottle of
51:18
Speaker 2: wine when it's actually like two buck chuck or something,
51:21
Speaker 2: and they'll rerieve about how great it is, and you know,
51:24
Speaker 2: all these different flavors that they're catching. It's just a
51:28
Speaker 2: really cheap glass of wine, but you're told it's really expensive.
51:32
Speaker 2: It changes how you think about the experience.
51:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there was an even and further to that.
51:41
Speaker 1: Then I'll shut up. Then I've got one question, which
51:43
Speaker 1: is from a friend who wants me to ask you something.
51:46
Speaker 1: There was a I think they just call it the
51:48
Speaker 1: Milkshake Study. It was done in Canada. I think it
51:50
Speaker 1: was twenty ten. I've definitely spoken about this on the
51:54
Speaker 1: show before. I don't know if I've spoken to you,
51:55
Speaker 1: but they sat these people down who were so obviously
52:00
Speaker 1: you know what grelon is, the hunger hormone. I don't
52:02
Speaker 1: need to actuate you, right. Do you remember this experiment
52:07
Speaker 1: where so they got people who were hungry, they hadn't
52:10
Speaker 1: eaten for a period of time, maybe eighteen to twenty
52:14
Speaker 1: four hours, and they brought them in and they sat
52:16
Speaker 1: them down three times where their grelon levels were elevated.
52:20
Speaker 1: All the people were hungry, and they gave them basically
52:23
Speaker 1: a low calorie milkshake like one hundred and twenty calories,
52:27
Speaker 1: medium like three hundred calories, and then milkshake with you
52:31
Speaker 1: know burger with the lot like fat sugar cream. It
52:35
Speaker 1: was yummy. Right, So there was like one hundred and
52:38
Speaker 1: twenty a three hundred and a six hundred calorie version,
52:42
Speaker 1: and anyway, they all knew what the experiment was. And
52:46
Speaker 1: then accordingly, you know, the more calories they had, the
52:49
Speaker 1: lower the grelon levels were, post you know whatever, all
52:52
Speaker 1: of that, and then you know what I'm going to say.
52:55
Speaker 1: Then they sat them down and they said, you drank
52:58
Speaker 1: three times, you drank the same thing. But what they
53:01
Speaker 1: thought they were drinking actually created a physiological change in
53:08
Speaker 1: you know, what was happening in their endocrin system in
53:10
Speaker 1: terms of Grellen levels. And it's like, it's so incredible
53:14
Speaker 1: what the mind or the brain thinks is happening, and
53:17
Speaker 1: that there's you know, the psychology and the physiology is intertwined.
53:22
Speaker 2: It certainly is that those are fascinating experiments, and it
53:27
Speaker 2: kind of you know, there can be a real silver
53:30
Speaker 2: lining to those sorts of studies because they can be
53:32
Speaker 2: a little upsetting because it takes away a lot of
53:35
Speaker 2: our agency. But you can also interpret that as you
53:40
Speaker 2: can potentially change your neurochemistry and maybe your physiology just
53:46
Speaker 2: by controlling your thoughts. Yeah. Now I'm not saying that
53:50
Speaker 2: people can like think their way out of cancer or
53:52
Speaker 2: something like that, but you can certainly make you know,
53:56
Speaker 2: more modest adjustments by learning how to adjust your thoughts
54:01
Speaker 2: to achieving more productive outputs. I forget her name, but
54:08
Speaker 2: she wrote The Optimism Bias Terry Shilow or something like that,
54:15
Speaker 2: fascinating book. But there's a lot of psychological experiments that
54:20
Speaker 2: have been done showing that people who have a modestly
54:25
Speaker 2: optimistic outlook have much better physiology and people who have
54:33
Speaker 2: a pessimistic outlook who learn to regulate their thoughts more
54:37
Speaker 2: towards an optimistic bias. Yeah, these biomarkers actually increase in
54:43
Speaker 2: their favor. So there's some real science behind being able
54:50
Speaker 2: to use, you know, controlling your inner monologue to think
54:55
Speaker 2: more positively and then benefiting from that physically. You know,
55:00
Speaker 2: it's it's not much different than the milkshake or Grellin
55:04
Speaker 2: experiment that you're describing.
55:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and it gives it gives.
55:08
Speaker 2: Credence to the power of our thoughts. You know that
55:13
Speaker 2: that should not be underestimated. And I don't mean they'd
55:17
Speaker 2: sound too woo woo here, but you know, you know,
55:20
Speaker 2: there are what is thinking, what is thought? Well, that's
55:24
Speaker 2: a change in neurochemistry is basically what's going on. So
55:28
Speaker 2: I think it's completely plausible that if you change your
55:31
Speaker 2: neurochemistry in a certain way, it's going to manifest itself
55:36
Speaker 2: different ways physiologically.
55:39
Speaker 1: I think.
55:40
Speaker 2: So, I think it's plausible.
55:42
Speaker 1: I think is it psycho neuro immunology that kind of
55:45
Speaker 1: explores the relationship between what's happening in our head and
55:48
Speaker 1: our immune system.
55:49
Speaker 2: I think, what did you call it again.
55:52
Speaker 1: It's called psycho neuro immunology.
55:55
Speaker 2: It's probably Yeah, that seems to be an adequate title
55:59
Speaker 2: for it, but yeah, it's it's basically learning how to
56:04
Speaker 2: control your thoughts in a way that is going to
56:07
Speaker 2: improve your body's biochemistry.
56:12
Speaker 1: Think about like, like, if I'm sitting here and I'm safe,
56:16
Speaker 1: there's no risk, there's no danger, I'm totally okay, nothing
56:20
Speaker 1: bad's going to happen. But I think something bad's going
56:23
Speaker 1: to happen. Well, I'm producing physiology that's consistent with threat danger.
56:30
Speaker 1: You know, now my blood pressures up, my heart rates up,
56:32
Speaker 1: my adrenalines going nuts, sympathetic nervous system has gone nuts.
56:37
Speaker 1: You know. Now I'm in I'm in a heightened state,
56:39
Speaker 1: not because the situation requires it, but because I had
56:42
Speaker 1: a thought.
56:44
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? Yeah, you're you're You're like geared up
56:46
Speaker 2: for fight or flight, even when there's no danger around you.
56:51
Speaker 2: This is what horror films exploit all the time. You know,
56:54
Speaker 2: our mind gets wrapped into this fantasy and it's producing
56:59
Speaker 2: certain neurochemical reactions that elicit a real physiological response.
57:06
Speaker 1: All right, last question before we go. This is from
57:08
Speaker 1: my friend who wants to know, does doctor Bill take
57:13
Speaker 1: any supplements? If yes, what and why now? Now that's
57:18
Speaker 1: a very random question by some way with pain.
57:22
Speaker 2: For today's episode. Yeah, but if you know, people who
57:26
Speaker 2: have a history of listening to me Babbel on your podcast,
57:30
Speaker 2: we've certainly talked about diet and exercise and healthy living.
57:37
Speaker 2: I don't have any medical conditions that would warrant my
57:41
Speaker 2: taking a supplement, so you know, my doctor hasn't prescribed
57:45
Speaker 2: any such thing. Now, there are people out in the
57:48
Speaker 2: world who might have, you know, certain deficiencies in various
57:51
Speaker 2: vitamins or minerals, and if you are diagnosed, you should
57:55
Speaker 2: take whatever supplement the doctor prescribes. But me personally, not
57:59
Speaker 2: having those conditions, I just get all of my nutrients
58:03
Speaker 2: from food, you know, a healthy diet. I don't see
58:07
Speaker 2: a need to take any sort of supplement whatsoever. And
58:11
Speaker 2: there's actually a lot of good scientific data that says
58:15
Speaker 2: supplements in isolation of the food really don't do you
58:19
Speaker 2: any good. You know, there's something about you know, like
58:23
Speaker 2: when you eat an orange, there's something else in the
58:26
Speaker 2: orange that makes the vitamin C work a lot more
58:28
Speaker 2: efficiently and better than if you were to just pop
58:31
Speaker 2: a vitamin C pill right now. That said, if you're
58:36
Speaker 2: going into the desert and won't have vitamin C for
58:38
Speaker 2: a long time, by all means you should maybe take
58:41
Speaker 2: a supplement. So I think it's very contextual, but on
58:45
Speaker 2: a day to day basis, I take absolutely zero supplements.
58:49
Speaker 1: Awesome. How do people connect with you? Darkwere? Can I
58:52
Speaker 1: find you? Follow you? Doctor? Bill's book is called Place
58:56
Speaker 1: to Make Me Jans Germs and the Curious Forces that
58:59
Speaker 1: make us who we are. Sorry, go ahead, thanks, Craig.
59:03
Speaker 2: The best place to find me is author Bill Sullivan
59:06
Speaker 2: dot com. That's my website. You can learn about the book,
59:10
Speaker 2: and if you click on the media page, you'll see
59:14
Speaker 2: all these wonderful podcasts that I've been on talking with
59:19
Speaker 2: Craig and some other folks. If you click on writing,
59:22
Speaker 2: you'll see all of the latest articles that I've written
59:25
Speaker 2: for various publications.
59:28
Speaker 1: Perfect, well, say goodbye off here, but as always, I
59:31
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thanks for hanging out with us on the
59:33
Speaker 1: You project.
59:35
Speaker 2: It's always my pleasure and I love hearing from your listeners.
59:38
Speaker 1: Thanks buddy,