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the Trials of the Son of Satan and Satana! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome everyone back to the Grimochen Lane podcast where queer friends and allies gather to review and discuss the original X-Men comics in continuity order except in the brief episode where we sacrifice our friends for the devil.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: We had to do a little bit of a Halloween opening there.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone remember I'm a dad if you ever roll your eyes at the start of a show.
• 0:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are always clear reasons.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey everybody, welcome back.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: We get to record the trial for Halloween today, which I'm very excited about.
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to record all about the 1970s nonsense.
• 0:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: That is the son of Satan and his twin sister, Satanna.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Both of these characters are wild, these are crazy journeys, and as always it's really fun to track someone over time.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: I am surrounded by a jury of my peers that people that I really love, I'm so honored you're all here, and we're going to jump right in with our introduction.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: The term Antichrist is first used in the books of first and second John in the New Testament, not in reference to a particular person, but to describe anyone who denies Christ.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: A more specific interpretation, someone who wants believed in Christ, but then having the truth of him then chooses to deny his power.
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, like, you knew it was true so much and then chose not to believe it anymore, which makes you an anti-Christ, which exists in a lot of deeper legends, including the one that I grew up in.
• 1:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Other words that are closely associated with anti-Christ, heretic, dissenter, apostate, or if you're a weird Mormon, you can get called a son of perdition.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the second century, Iranians and others begin speculating about one specific apocalyptic figure, and interpretations of the Bible connect him
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: with the man of sin mentioned in second Thessalonians and the beast reverenced in revelations.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Culture forms an image of a prophesied figure, a satanic human, maybe a Jewish person who will rebuild the temple and deceive Israel.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: These are not my beliefs.
• 2:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to be very clear.
• 2:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're summarizing some major world beliefs.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the middle ages, the anti-Christ emerges as an evil counterpart to Jesus, almost like the Bizarro to his Superman.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: A literal son of the devil will be born first to immortal woman as Christ had been born of Mary.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Stories about the anti-Christ leaned toward him pretending to be a miracle worker, deceiving the world before Christ's second coming.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: The false dragon to the dragon reborn, if you will, for my will of time friends.
• 2:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the Renaissance, the Protestants are claiming the Catholic Pope is the Antichrist, but the Catholics say it's the reformers and on and on.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the 19th century, the Antichrist is prophesied to be a world dictator who will appear after the rapture.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: And along the way, mythological interpretations of all this become active.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Beliefs that evil demons, which is succuby or incuby will mate with humans.
• 3:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Merlin of Legend is said to have a demon
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: of fucking Satan before they were killed.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Fast forward to the 1960s when the satanic panic hits Hollywood.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Rosemary's baby in 1968 tells the story that Satan worshiping Tricking a woman into burying the child of the devil.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of brilliant, actually.
• 3:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Go watch it.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's an incredible film.
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: In 1976, the first woman movie comes out about a child, Damian being the prophesied anti-Christ, and there are several sequels, and I did not like any of these movies.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: recently in the Omen ones did not hold up for thee.
• 3:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the 1980s modern Christians start prophesying about cults and Satan worshippers and demons wanting the virtue of women, but the seeds have been there all along in racist America too, no pun intended.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: But the Satan worshiping cult becomes a mainstay in Hollywood horror.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: American horror story apocalypse tells the story of Michael Langdon, the literal child of Satan, and on and on.
• 4:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's something about that image of the child with demonic eyes, the corruption of innocence, the weight of prophecy, the horrible bloody ways that Damian kills all of his victims in the home and with just a glance, and then that child grows up corrupt.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: And now we have 1973.
• 4:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Marvel gives us Damon Hellstrom, the son of Satan, shirtless, and inverted pentagram on his chest to try and in his hand, hellfire raging around him, demon horses pulling his chariot, and the same year we meet his sister, Satana.
• 4:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's how I say the name.
• 4:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if there's other people who pronounce this differently.
• 4:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: A sexy young woman who drains your soul if she kisses you.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: So ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the trials of Damon and Satana Hills from a couple of hot red heads who just love their bad sides.
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes, love each other incessed forening everyone, let me look at my esteemed jury.
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so happy to have you all here.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me have you each introduce yourself with your name and pronouns.
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I would love if you're willing to share some of your thoughts from your upbringing about what the anti-Christ represented feel free to put
• 5:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: pass on that question if you prefer.
• 5:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then I'd love to hear some of your initial thoughts on this son of Satan and satana.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me begin with my friend Scott Frees, got welcome back to Game Walk and Lane, my friend.
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you Chad.
• 5:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me continuing my tradition of appearing on the jury's for problematic men such as Ice Man and Jamie Madrox.
• 5:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can now add
• 5:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: The anti-Christ, what does there to say about the anti-Christ?
• 5:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't there to say about the anti-Christ?
• 5:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: What isn't there to say about the anti-Christ?
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, before I went off to law school, I was on track to do a PhD medieval history.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I started out as a medievalist and images of
• 5:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Satan and, you know, hell are right throughout a medieval art and medieval conceptions.
• 5:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just so happens that in the 1970s at Marvel, the conception of the sort of Satan was a shirtless man in a cape with
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Large yellow boots and the pentagram on this chest, which is not the classable interpretation of the son of the devil But you know, it was the 70s.
• 6:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We were trying different things.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love the health rooms.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're so messy Everyone who comes into their orbit is dragged into their shit and they just shrug it off and go on to like the next thing And they just leave a trail of destroying people behind them.
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're so messy.
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're so fun and I'm really excited to be here to talk about them
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: And now, welcome to my favorite Jezebel.
• 6:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Susan, currently is here, everyone.
• 6:37
  [SPEAKER_08]: That's such a delightful introduction.
• 6:39
  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'll claim that.
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_08]: I want that on my business cards now.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
• 6:43
  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for having me.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm seasoned currently.
• 6:45
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a professor at Portland State and Director of the Comics Studies program and delighted to be a part of this trial as a is a comics scholar and historian.
• 6:53
  [SPEAKER_08]: These are so fascinating to me these characters.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_08]: I see the way in which these black and white comics were able to sort of circumvent the comics code and deal in these really sort of
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_08]: dark subject matter.
• 7:06
  [SPEAKER_08]: So for me, it's just a fascinating deep dive in the comics history and these black and white comics are really worth seeking out and looking at.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_08]: So it's so much fun.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: They are messy and really, really interesting.
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_08]: And I started thinking about like, oh, you know, this is sort of backlash against the women's liberation movement and you think of, yes, you've sent me spinning thinking about all these characters in terms of the
• 7:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I adore the way your brain works.
• 7:33
  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's interesting to me because you know, growing up in a fairly conservative household.
• 7:38
  [SPEAKER_08]: There was a lot of, you know, fear around it.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_08]: And so it was interesting for me to see, like, you know, these comics, like, you know, it's like the sexy anti-Christ.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm like, oh, that's different.
• 7:49
  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, so I was like, okay, this is a, this is a different perspective than what I grew up.
• 7:54
  [SPEAKER_08]: Can't fault the fashion sense.
• 7:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoy that you grew up thinking that the anti-Christ was perhaps a little more homely.
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I mean, I didn't imagine, you know, like, you know, the capes and the boots and everything, but it just shows the limits of my imagination, apparently.
• 8:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: And welcome to Lilith, the mother of all demons.
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Alice and parent is with us, everyone.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello!
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm so excited to be here.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_07]: I feel like I may be in the least qualified to be on a trial, but I'm going to try my absolute best.
• 8:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I'm Alice and parent.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_07]: Are you sure they're proud of us?
• 8:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's antichrist and then the health firms.
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I don't know anything about the health firms.
• 8:35
  [SPEAKER_07]: So this was brand new for me.
• 8:37
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I do know stuff about the antichrist.
• 8:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: I grew up in a pretty southern Baptist area.
• 8:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I would say that I heard it thrown around the most during Obama's election.
• 8:48
  [SPEAKER_07]: But I liked the idea of a sexy antichrist.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I came on to that.
• 8:52
  [SPEAKER_07]: I did pretty quick.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to my favorite Delilah Sarah Century.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Sarah.
• 8:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, hey, it's nice to be here.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am Sarah's entry.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: My pronouns are she, her.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been on a lot of episodes of Grey Malkin Lane for instance.
• 9:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps most importantly, I did a lesbian vampire scene.
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming that that's going to come up a lot today.
• 9:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was called My Wild Heart Leads With Yours, writings on lesbian vampires by Sarah's entry.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Before that, I did another lesbian vampire scene that was called How to Become a Lesbian Vampire movie.
• 9:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I am all red up on the lore.
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love the anti-Christ.
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think he's great.
• 9:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or they're great.
• 9:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even really know.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that much about the anti-Christ.
• 9:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I was raised without a religion in my house.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have a lot of religion.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there was a long time where I was always kind of casually just for my enjoyment trying to get like prosetting and propaganda into my articles.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'd be writing about any number of things like airlines or something like that.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if I can like
• 9:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: be like, you know, the Church of Satan is there for you if you are interested in it.
• 9:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that this is something I put in a lot of the articles that I've written.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I live the health strands, they're great.
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're very topless, most of the time, and I think that that's really all I need to really get behind a character for the most part.
• 10:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, it's mefosopheles.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to Matt parents as well.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Matt.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, I'm Matt.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I use they then pronouns.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, I'm Jewish.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't really grow up with the antichrist because I didn't grow up with a Christ.
• 10:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Though my grandmother is a born again Christian and she is very worried about Satan in in in in all places, which definitely was a wedge between the two of us.
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think my relationship with like Satan and like the devil with more is like with literature with like Paradise Lost I think is is the like one of the great like texts and and Satan and that story is such a great hero Like tragic hero as far as the hellstrom's go.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have read them when they show up in X-Men books or when they show up in like ghostwriter or things like that that I I read but I did not really have a really strong connection to them
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: having read these.
• 10:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: I really love satana.
• 11:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's great.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And Damian is like a lot of like 70s male heroes at the time.
• 11:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like really like inward and like self-hating in a way that's maybe sometimes annoying.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: But the look is amazing.
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love the look.
• 11:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love the shirt.
• 11:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was the upside-down pentagram, the little swirls.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I especially love when Howard the duck gets this look.
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I will say, I love being on a trial with Scott.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Scott is the legitimately in the Jamie Maddox trial, which you should listen to, it has the best bit ever where he will not give Jamie more than to on anything.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a defense lawyer at heart and I will I'll go down swinging for the clients that you like at least Now we have some fun journeys on my show in the last few years not only do I have an incredible episode on black heart the son of Mufisto with indesente and Anthony Levera
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: but we have the whole trial of Mifisto from last Halloween.
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's fun to delve into these kind of tropes in horror, which is really fun.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I am Chad Anderson.
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: I see him pronouns.
• 12:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I grew up in a very conservative religion with very weird beliefs.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I would call it a cult now.
• 12:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I apologize to any Mormon listeners.
• 12:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: I still love you and we could be friends, but I do think it needs the criteria.
• 12:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: I grew up believing that the devil was like a real force.
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: I believe that like coming out would like make me the devil.
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it was like this unpardonable sin that would like sever me from my family in the afterlife.
• 12:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: I also, and I don't think my mom will listen to this, but mom, I love you too.
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I grew up with a mom that would like be, you can't like go on that trip with your friends.
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: A demon showed up in my sleep last night and told me not to let you go.
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like that type of thinking would show up in my home quite often.
• 12:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So like the devil was like a very real force.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: As a therapist in Utah, I'm constantly working with people who believe in these types of things.
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're a kid, instead of just having a mental health crisis, you might believe that it's a possession, for example.
• 12:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that type of thinking when you grow up in these very conservative spaces becomes tricky in like a very puritanical way.
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's a very odd,
• 13:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: So reading these comics produced just a few years before I was born outlings one particular trope that we get to jump into in the 70s, which is this idea of the son of the devil and the daughter of the devil.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Matt mentioned Howard the doc, I will say very quickly, I actively consider doing a Howard the duck trial because he's so 70s and absurdist, but after reading about 20 Steve Gerber comics in a row, I just couldn't do that to myself.
• 13:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Howard the Duck will never be receiving a trial on Kremlin Lane, but we will occasionally reference that weird little guy.
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Look at those, we go.
• 13:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, the first image we see of Damon Hellstrom in 1973 shows him placing a Christian cross on the grave of his mother Victoria Hellstrom.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Born March 4th, 1928, died August 21st, 1953.
• 13:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Not long later, we get a peak inside the journal of Victoria.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Though it will be painful, you must know these things my son, and then you must fight your father with all your strength as he told me.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: He first came to earth in search of a wife, securing the knowledge he would live forever, yet afraid there would be none to take his place should he impossible occur.
• 14:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: You see, my darling, Damon, your father was, is,
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: Satan, why he chose my hometown?
• 14:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll never know but I assume he liked the seclusion around Fire Lake.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: He somehow conjured up the ghastly mansion I came to know as home.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then with a base of operations established, he changed his form to that of the most handsome man any earthly woman had ever seen.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: In spite of the evil essence, which always seemed to blaze in his eyes, he was the perfect man to capture the innocent heart of a shy, lonely, young girl like myself,
• 14:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: I shall never forget the first time I saw him.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was terrified, get somehow mesmerized by his presence.
• 14:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are lovely.
• 14:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come, take my hand, walk with me.
• 14:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't even know you, I... That is unimportant.
• 14:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: All that matters that we are here.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Together, we spent the rest of the day roaming the forest, talking, touching.
• 14:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: And when it last sunset came, I was no longer able to resist him.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was hissed for the mere asking.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so sorry my darling son for oversharing so much and I added that dialogue the good lower.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: If only I'd have the slightest inkling to his identity, but I didn't.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was a naive, young woman in search of romance made a Lord forgive me.
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: We were married and moved immediately into the house in which you were both little more than a year later.
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: And when your sister was born, you were three then I believe I didn't believe it possible for any couple to be happier.
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: your father began to take extended trips frequently after that, but I had you children and I assumed he was away on business so I ignored it for several years more until that horrible time I went to the seller looking for your father and sister and she walks in on her daughter, Soteta, who that's her name, her birth name, Soteta everyone.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's killing an animal in front of some candles and uh, uh, maybe her name wasn't satana.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: I just think it was satana.
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, in this moment, Victoria sees her husband's true form in manifest in her daughter.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he says, now do you see you're the bride of Satan and her response is simply Sarah, if you will.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I have no idea.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, it lost my mind.
• 16:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have any idea how long it was before I stopped screaming, but when I did, I was locked away in a padded cell somewhere, unable to talk, or even think until a few hours before the death I knew was approaching.
• 16:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: In those few final hours, I've learned that you and your sister were placed in homes, and that your father disappeared.
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is why I'm writing this account to you, to warn you that he'll be back to try and claim your very soul
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Much later, we get a much darker retcon of this, but I want to pause and talk about this origin for just a minute.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, will you talk to us about this?
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe a comparison to Rosemary's baby is welcome here as well if you like.
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because this is just typical of the time, right?
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is marble kind of trying to get in on Satan's stuff, but Satan's stuff was pretty much in the culture at that time.
• 17:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: They had so many movies.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's just so, so many movies that are kind of
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, either you've got Rosemary's babies, but oh, don't sleep on the fist of waltz, you know, don't sleep on burn-witch burn, you know, like, you've got to watch a lot of a lot of b-moobies, I guess, to get the full effect.
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's everywhere, and I think that Marvel is just kind of like, cool, yeah, like, let's have our, like, demon spawn story, but they do, they have to do it in a very PG-13 way.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess like overall the movies don't get that intense about it either, like usually the or even horror movies aren't that intense, you know, they don't go too far.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: That basically that like Marvel just wanted to have their version of that because horror was popular at this time and so they had their science vampire.
• 17:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're a version of the demon basically with Gargoyle, you know, lots of lots of lots of different things.
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're both fighting against them there, you know?
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they wanted to do stuff with that.
• 18:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think that, yeah, Satan was just so popular.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: People love this guy.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the Red Sun we get later in the House from series tells us that Victoria actually descended from a long line of Satanists and that her parents soldered the chapel of Dresden, which are literally Nazi Satan worshippers, and then used her as breeding stock, which is a rougher version.
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, then do you want to share your thoughts on the character of Victoria?
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's clearly a character with very little will, who wrote a very specific journal entry for her child, but...
• 18:32
  [SPEAKER_08]: it's hard to take a look at it from a contemporary perspective and like being outside of that world.
• 18:37
  [SPEAKER_08]: It's like, did you were there red flags when they wanted to name them Damon and Satana?
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, were there any red flags along the ways?
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_08]: What I'm saying?
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, within the world, it's, you know, I don't want to cast aspersions on this character, you know, she's she's been through a lot.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_08]: And I guess the only appropriate response is, you know, thanks.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, like, what else are you going to say at that moment, right?
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_08]: So, so I have sympathy, you know.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Rosemary's baby, the woman, uh, me a Ferris character and that is kept like very drugged and sedated through a lot of it.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like very like her trying to find her way out of the haze and the music beautifully captures.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody go listen to the soundtrack from Rosemary's baby.
• 19:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's wild, even all these years later.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of banging.
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, we have the 70s title, which only lasted a few issues, and then son of Satan becomes kind of a regular recurring character, but he has a lot of solo adventures at the beginning, all by different writers, and then in the 90s, we got that wild, like, helstrom series by Warren Ellis, which is kind of great, but also like, wow, it's a lot, even all these years later.
• 19:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I'm going to give you Damon's origins as they get written in the two-time periods kind of bouncing back and forth.
• 19:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, after Damon was born, he grew up in his family estate in Fire Lake, Massachusetts, 70's back.
• 19:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: He was fed human blood when he was a child, 90's back.
• 19:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: After his mother was driven insane, Damon studied the priesthood in a Jesuit Monastery, 70's back.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon, by the way, was very much a mom, as boy, and I'm going to do that thing where I recount an entire character's chronology and a few paragraphs, with no attempt to make it all make sense.
• 20:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: So after leaving the priesthood mixing it all the dead together, Damon dedicated his life to fighting the evil of his father on earth.
• 20:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: He stormed hell, he stole a netheranium trident,
• 20:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: and some demon steeds and filaments that are rebellion against the devil.
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now fighting evil demons as the heroic and sexy son of Satan Dan and was fully aware of the dark soul within him and had to be bound up at night so that it couldn't escape.
• 20:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: So he's got a literal dark side.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: The heroic side and then the one that wants to come out at night.
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's very juggle and hide in this way.
• 20:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: He worked as an exorcist for a higher, he taught paranormal studies at a collegiate level where he had several early adventures next to his own supporting cast of characters like his lover, Sarifa Thames.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the dark soul was always just under the surface looking for a chance to take over.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damien became affiliated with the defenders, helping them conquer the six finger to hand another demonic threats.
• 21:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: And he saw the hero in Hellcat go through her own dark journey as she briefly believed herself to be the daughter of the devil.
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: After he cast out the dark soul completely, he launched into a happy mortal life, married Patsy Walker Hellcat, and they launched a brief career together as a cult detectives.
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: At one point, he learned that Sarifa had married a demon who had taken on Damon's identity, so there's all this crazy stuff that gets mixed in later.
• 21:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: In time, Hellstrom grew sick from the absence of his dark soul, and Patsy made a bargain with the devil to restore the dark side to Damon.
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: The deal drove her mad, and Damon now embracing his evil began a relationship with Jane Cutter while Patsy was an invalid.
• 21:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: She later summoned the being death urged to help her take her own life.
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon declared war on his father once again, and then he fathered a child with the witch Levocen to use me to get key intel that allowed Damon
• 21:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: killed the devil and you serve his role in two hells.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: So now he's like literal daddy Satan from South Park like he runs his own place and Levocen she gave birth to the devil on earth a resurrected and mortal marduic curious who is the specific version of the devil that is Damon Hellstrom's father and he's now the son of Satan so that guy exists on the planet he fathered his own father on earth.
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, if you want to really long die a try, go over to the Damon House from Profile on the Marvel Appendix.
• 22:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a huge write-up in the comments section about which devil is which on the Marvel Earth and murder curious of the one that specifically gets assigned to this character, because Marvel has multiple hells, why not?
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, then we get a name of every color in the re years since he runs, he joins the Hellfire Club.
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: He helps manipulate events to bring Patsy back to life.
• 22:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: He helps other heroes and mystics, repel and invasion from Dormamu.
• 22:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: He hunts evil Satan worshippers.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: He fights supervillains alongside Ghost Strider.
• 22:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: He teams up with Nazis to create misery on Earth.
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: He gets murdered by Victoria Hand when she's possessed by Dr. Voodoo's brother.
• 22:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: He tries recruiting the Venom symbiote to his monsters of evil team.
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: He joins the masters of evil.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: He offers to cure fire stars cancer and get a date with Patsy.
• 23:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: And later he poses as her toy bunny to spy on her.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then he joins a shield team of the Howling Commandos and becomes a teacher at the Strange Academy and then joins a literal Avengers team in teeny Howard series Strike Force.
• 23:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this guy is all over the place, and there's even at one point in Colin Buns' story that proposes he like duplicated himself a whole bunch of times, like multiple man style to see what all of his different lives might look like.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me turn it over to Scott for a minute.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Scott, I'd love to have you share your thoughts on the 70s series versus the 90s Hellstrom series and how it shifts the character.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: The 70s series is very much in the mold of
• 23:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, it's a Bronze Age comic, they're a little limited in, you know, you don't get some of the overt horror that you get, for example, the 90s, like Warren Ellis series, but it is very much of its time.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, look at the broader trends where you also have characters like Ghost Rider, tube of Dracula, where, by night, et cetera, et cetera, and over at DC, his most direct counterpart,
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: the same story over and over again, which is he has a conflict with his father, either he storms into hell to yell at his father or his father is operating on Earth through some sort of cultists, the League of Nylists, or any of these other groups, and they have a big brawl and his supporting cast is usually a beautiful blonde woman and
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: a guy who's kind of skeptical are there and they're shocked.
• 24:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Hellstrom, you know, sets everybody on fire and does a lot of stuff.
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's very much a set sort of trope story and they're fun.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you go in reading these as just, you know, this is a Bronze Age story.
• 24:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's got a very set plot and I'm not going to expect like, you know, something epic to come out of this.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: There is a lot of violence toward women in these stories which I don't love and then the 90s series gives us this like Satan worshiping MTV generation like multiple piercings everybody's in leather.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's pre-buffy the vampire slayer It's very like army of darkness.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: It goes it goes super dark.
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you a fan of the house from series Scott?
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's very much a product of its time.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when you look at it in that setting, as you said, it's very much sort of an MTV generation, Damon Hellstrom where it's like this is a Hellstrom that you could easily read after watching, like, be this in butt head or something where it's very hard and very harsh to sort of, you know,
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: The role of women, particularly in Hellstrom's 70s stories, he's very nasty to most of his female supporting characters.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's very nasty to most of his supporting characters in general, but he has no time for women beyond using them as part of whatever the plot is.
• 26:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's both reflective of the writing of the time, but also the character himself is particularly
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really interesting for me to look at shifting motivations.
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: If I would just examine Damon and Patsy for a moment, and I'm going to give it a read on either side, they have a weird relationship.
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Either his human side fell in love with her, but then his demon side corrupted and resulted in her death, right?
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Or there's a darker version of this, where if you guys have seen the good place,
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: where all the characters go to heaven and there's these particular ways of just torturing them with inanity and like getting stuck and like if you picture like patsy he's just torturing her the entire time and he's just kind of awful consistently and he never will quite leave her alone and he's just
• 26:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: slowly driving or mad.
• 26:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: That read on the character makes more sense to me.
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's an interesting journey.
• 26:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if you're going to pick one character listeners to read front-to-back, I would choose Satana over the Son of Satan.
• 27:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: But go back and read the 70s Son of Satan series in particular.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really interesting.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then that 90s one, I think just like every Marvel fan needs to read it front-to-back one time.
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about his power's briefly.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon Hellstrom has two sides at war within him, the human side and the dark soul, which is the demonic part of himself, the manifests through the inverted pentagram birthmark on his chest, at least at the beginning.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: He manipulates Hellfire, which is often called soulfire, and fire itself.
• 27:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: He manipulates Hellmagic, he can open portals to and fromheld dimensions.
• 27:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the early years, he could extend three fingers of each hand into a trident shape in order to summon his costume, and he had a period where his evil side only came out at night.
• 27:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's had times in his life where he was totally good, and times when he's totally evil.
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's been a priest, a professor of demonology,
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: He has a tried and composed of netheranium, which is a metal directly from hell, and a mystic chariot drawn by his demon steeds, Amin Hakate and set, and the horses enjoy feasting on human flesh.
• 28:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damen is also an accomplished sorcerer with his powers way and thumb when he is in hell.
• 28:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love the design.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to start there because I think his powers are a little confused, like, a lot of magic characters are they sort of do whatever he needs them to do in the comic, but the design is amazing, the the the the chariot and the steeds.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: really separate him from the other like sort of like monstrous care.
• 28:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's like a regalness to him that like Ghost Rider or where we'll find neither.
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean, who Dracula sort of has some of this, but he's also like he's bear and shirtless.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's this like he's got some of the primalness.
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: that those other monstrous characters have but still like you know his hair is in a little like clothed horn.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love that it's this like and that little thing is I think the most interesting thing reading Damon Hellstrom for me as someone who's not really for super familiar before this is that I I'd probably seen him in Howard Duck right that was those probably my actual like connection to him.
• 29:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: And he's a good guy in that comic.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: He is he is like a hero.
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's interesting to see that like in the only in the 90s Do we start to really like push the like well there's there's a he does sometimes given to the darkness and I I don't know as far as his powers go to Health the like the two sidedness.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think is weird
• 29:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: because sometimes it feels like it's like the whole, right?
• 29:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like this thing he's holding back and sometimes it's like the phoenix, like it's this is a different guy.
• 29:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, the dark soul is like sort of not Damon somehow.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's a lot of ethnic characters with dark sides from Xavier to Beast, but with, yeah, we got a magic that's the literal dark child.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like magic, yeah.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: She lost her soul and now this dark side manifest.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Allison, I would love to hear from you on what it was like to jump into this world primarily as an X-Men fan.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Where's the intersect for you of interest?
• 29:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: And which of the monsters of evil would you keep as a pet?
• 29:55
  [SPEAKER_07]: So, as an X-Men fan, I knew precious little about any of this, but I've been reading a lot of fantastic fours.
• 30:03
  [SPEAKER_07]: I really like reading him in the fantastic four annual.
• 30:06
  [SPEAKER_07]: I also he seems like he would fit in with the X-Men he comes in.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's a little catty and then he leaves.
• 30:11
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think if I had to choose a monster, people would definitely be the demon cow.
• 30:14
  [SPEAKER_07]: The demon cow has a soft spot in my heart, and it has so many things.
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Not to mention.
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's with Hell Cow, everyone.
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_07]: No, not Hell Cow.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: This is a different demon cow.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting to me that this is a horror character, but it's very important for Marvel to paint him with a heroic side.
• 30:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the battle or the division between the two souls that's supposed to be the most interesting.
• 30:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, he's evil that not that evil.
• 30:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, he's kind of the punisher to the spider-man in some ways, and he's willing to do the darker things.
• 30:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's fighting a different kind of forces that we don't normally have to consider.
• 30:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: What are your thoughts on the need for this character to be a hero?
• 30:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I found it.
• 30:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: that honestly characters who have this anti-hero like framing end up being more white knights generally like Wolverine is the anti-hero of the X-Men but in doing so he can never really break his code like if very like nowadays especially like he really like you almost never see him like go go beyond
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that it's even with Satan.
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: We have to have this like pureness to him.
• 31:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: And even then when I read like Satan almost sort of has this like weird pureness like holiness in him, which I think is really beautiful, but it also does feel a little bit like we can't have like the griminess of like pure evil.
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: It really made me feel like the Fisto is the true devil of the Marvel Universe, a little bit, and that Satan is sort of like a lesser devil.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's, I think I'm just barely forming this thought, actually, which is really helpful for me as I look at this character.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Religion is very much about the good and evil in each person's soul in so many ways.
• 31:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, the Mormons have this phrase of like the natural man is an enemy to God, right?
• 31:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like you got to listen to your godly instincts, not your natural instincts.
• 31:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: But here's a character who's like half double.
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the human side of me would have been considered evil, but the human side of him is the good part, right?
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: But it also represents the descent of where you could go.
• 32:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's an interesting character in that way, because there is a heroicness to him if you read it in that way.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think in terms of characters who are prominent in this era, he actually presents interesting contrast to Hercules, in that they both have a similar sort of demigod background.
• 32:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you see Hercules as sort of this jocular, late-hearted character who in books like the Champions and whatever is at the forefront, he's cracking jokes with Warren and Bobby doing all this stuff, whereas Hellstrom is an ass.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that is the consistent through thing through Damon Hellstrom where he is both man and something greater, something darker.
• 32:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't take joy in it in the way that that Hercules does in his demigods status.
• 32:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: health strum is always just sort of slightly pissed off.
• 33:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It makes for, you know, particularly confrontations with other characters like we've seen when the defenders or all the way down to the working with a venom, you always get the sense he doesn't want to be there.
• 33:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's not going to crack jokes with these other characters.
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's wants to get the job done and go back to whatever weird stuff he's up to in his personal life.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, we have not talked about the characters to tan a much.
• 33:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to get to that in the latter half.
• 33:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's an amazing character.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: But let me hear some of your early thoughts on the relationship between Damon and his sister.
• 33:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so great.
• 33:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's nice to see siblings that get along and fiction, but it's also nice to see siblings that fight.
• 33:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that she has a great reason to be mad at Damon.
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's kind of sanctimonious and self-righteous.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if anything, she's not that.
• 33:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's very fun to just kind of watch them.
• 33:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: pick at each other, but also I think that they really need each other.
• 33:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that whenever they're by themselves, they can stand alone as characters, but it's kind of this duo that just keeps finding each other.
• 34:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: There will be stories where they're never talking to me again.
• 34:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Get out of here and then the next time you see them, they're like working together again or something.
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a brother who I talked to and it's like everyone else in our family is so wild that like we just ended up becoming friends because of that I think like maybe our personalities wouldn't have fit so well together otherwise but everyone else is so wild so I feel like that's kind of how it is with those two and that's why I really appreciate their relationship I like average serial siblings it's just fun to read.
• 34:33
  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it goes back to your earlier question about the feeling that, you know, he has to be a hero or have some heroic elements to him.
• 34:40
  [SPEAKER_08]: He can't be all bad.
• 34:41
  [SPEAKER_08]: And for me, it's really interesting to look at the two characters together.
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_08]: It's just like argument about nature versus nurture because they're both, you know, they're twins.
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_08]: They come from the same parents yet he was raised by this foster family and she was raised by Satan.
• 34:55
  [SPEAKER_08]: And so, you know, in what role does you talk about natural, but what role does their biology, their parentage play, and what does the environment where they grew up play?
• 35:06
  [SPEAKER_08]: So I think it's an interesting examination of nature versus nurture.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_08]: It's interesting as well to me that they both have elements of the hero and the villain within them.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_08]: And you see that, you know, they're, every time I talk about her, they have to say, say, Tana.
• 35:19
  [SPEAKER_08]: the devil's daughter like they have to remind you the devil's okay we got it you know we got it you know she gets upset when her friends are hurt and she does and she helps her brother and so they're complicated they're both hero and villain and there's this interesting sort of reflection on what you know what role does our upbringing play and all this I will say I agree though he can be very sanctimonious
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_08]: which if I was the sister, I would be like, oh my god, just dial it down.
• 35:44
  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's one very brief comment on his powers, which you know, I was like, oh yeah, you control these scary horses.
• 35:51
  [SPEAKER_08]: The thing that terrifies me the most is when he turned into a stuffed bunny rabbit and was torturing hellcat.
• 35:58
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, what, what?
• 35:59
  [SPEAKER_08]: That to me was absolutely terrifying.
• 36:02
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, I have my childhood stuffed animal.
• 36:05
  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a little stuffed pig.
• 36:05
  [SPEAKER_08]: I named him Albert Einstein.
• 36:07
  [SPEAKER_08]: And if he were to start speaking to me, I was very traumatized by that, and I think it's really a delightful move from the writers and very scary.
• 36:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Although Christopher Catwell, it's a really fun series of documentary stories.
• 36:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Is there a queer read on Damon Hellstrom?
• 36:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not inversionously.
• 36:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the obvious thing is the intense daddy issues which pops up with a lot of queer characters, but I would definitely say there is a queer reading of character who at his core is about trying to find his place in
• 36:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: the world and not entirely being of the world and constantly feeling as if he has a giant chip on a shoulder in his case because he is the son of Satan.
• 36:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: For a lot of queer people, it's the awareness that you are a queer person in a world that is often hostile to queer people, you know, what gay man also hasn't gone for the shirt off yelling at people.
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, they're both gay, I think.
• 37:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I love the satanas like canonically by, right?
• 37:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: They both really strike me as very queer, very queer sibling.
• 37:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's controversial.
• 37:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: With that, we're going to jump into the trial of the son of Satan.
• 37:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: He gets the first three trial points.
• 37:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then in the latter half, we'll be talking about Satanna.
• 37:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And you don't want to miss that friends I promised.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's a really fun character.
• 37:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Trial point one, we are calling Netheranium.
• 37:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, each jury member has been assigned a section to read in advance.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: to prepare both a prosecution and defense for after I present each section we will hear the prosecution the defense and then every jury member gets a chance to ask questions and then vote from zero meaning completely innocent ranging up to five meaning completely evil.
• 37:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Trap.1 is Methodranium.
• 37:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: The key issues here are Marvel Spotlight 12 through 17.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Ascensionary Member here is Scott Frey.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: After learning about the truth of his heritage, Damon Hellstrom was called by his father down a long passageway from the family estate in Fire Lake, down, down, down, and to hell, itself.
• 38:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Despite being offered life eternal, and power incarnate, Damon decided to turn against his father.
• 38:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: He engaged in an intense battle with the demons of hell, then fought the devil himself.
• 38:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Despite being horribly outmatched, Damon stole his father's
• 38:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: and escaped hell on a fiery chariot pulled by demon steeds.
• 38:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: At home, Damon covered the entrance to hell with melted etheranium.
• 38:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: After launching his career as an exorcist, Damon was hired to aid the possessed woman, Linda Little trees, a really great native character actually who has some potential, and even some recent appearances at Marvel.
• 38:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: She had an aspect of Satan inside her and called herself, which woman, Satan brought which woman in the new hero Johnny Blaze go strider down to hell in order to lure Damon there.
• 39:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: And Damon after fighting off the motorcycle gang, the ruthless writers because we needed them for some reason.
• 39:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: threatens to collapse Hell in on itself, unless Satan let them go.
• 39:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satan triggered a volcanic eruption, and Damon escaped with the two demon influence mortals and got them back to safety on Earth.
• 39:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon was then hired by Katherine Reynolds to investigate a haunting, at Gateway University, and he discovered the entity Ike Philon, and his hoard of demons there, and went into combat Ike Philon took Katherine hostage into the realm of Boreas,
• 39:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: and Damon only freed her by lying to Ikthelon and then incinerating him with Hellfire.
• 39:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Son of Satan can't after all lie, furious with Catherine, he at one point slapped her across the face.
• 39:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Informed on his birthday that his dark soul and light soul had merged, Catherine and the student Byron Hyatt asked Damon to break up a satanic cult, and he caught them in mid-rich wool.
• 39:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon ended up being controlled,
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: by the cult's spells for a time, and he soon got his mind back and defeated the demon bathamette in combat, refusing again to submit to his father's will.
• 40:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Finally, when 4th of us, you guys this story is...
• 40:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: When I'm not joking, this isn't made up.
• 40:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: When 4,000 mysterious holes opened all over the forest park, you know, we're Spider-Man lives.
• 40:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon went to investigate, and ended up doing battle with the Legion of Nileists.
• 40:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: When one of these holes was blasted with Hellfire, Damon unwittingly triggered a cosmic reaction, the fire passing through every hole, until it formed a fiery serpent named Komatesh, who threatened to destroy everything, like all reality.
• 40:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Unable to harm the serpent birthed from his fire in all the holes, Damon instead took himself with Katherine and Byron, 20,000 years back in time to meet the ancient Atlanteans
• 40:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: and the wizard is a red-naw who you probably read in a Jennifer kale comic sometime.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then the mystic primal matrix, don't worry about it.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon battled the Guardian Spyroce and the fight accidentally triggered the destruction of the snake combates us who then vanished from the modern era with all of the holes.
• 41:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me turn it over to Scott himself, I Scott.
• 41:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I chad, this whole era is wild.
• 41:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned the bike gang.
• 41:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to have a fight with a bike gang because it is the 70s.
• 41:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how you know it's the 70s.
• 41:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: People with motorcycles.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is tough.
• 41:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be a tough part of the trial because what really did Damon do wrong?
• 41:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the first instance, he went down to hell, and he battled his father.
• 41:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: He stole another anium trident from his father, but I think we can all agree that that weapon should not be in Satan's hands.
• 41:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: He used that to escape from hell, sealed off the entrance why, which he's doing good work, he's keeping the devil down in hell.
• 41:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: which I think we can all agree with the devil belongs, this is insane.
• 41:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: As an exorcist, he helps lindle little trees.
• 41:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can see some of his language and dealings with indigenous peoples are a little problematic.
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: He does not necessarily refer to them in ways that we would find acceptable in the 21st century, but he does get linda out.
• 42:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: He also gets Johnny Blaise out of hell.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean granted, he does dump them in the desert, but you know, Johnny's resourceful.
• 42:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, he can find his way back to civilization.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's his whole thing is riding around the Southwest on a motorcycle, doing shit, triggering the volcano.
• 42:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's no one else in the area, they're fine.
• 42:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the Catholic Reynolds stuff at Gateway University, little problematic, his treatment of Catholic Reynolds.
• 42:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I'll concede, not exactly, you know, stellar treatment, slapping her around even for a comic in 1975.
• 42:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: There usually isn't that much overt physical violence towards a supporting character, unless you're hangpim, or, you know, read Richards.
• 42:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: He did free her from Ikthalon, the Ice Demon.
• 42:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, as was mentioned, he did lie, but he is a the son of Satan and the son of Satan, Cam lie.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: and it was for a good cause in that he did stop some ice demons from hell.
• 43:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I want you to keep that in mind, he did stop the ice demons with Hellfire.
• 43:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was around in 1976.
• 43:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine that probably stopping ice demons from overrunning St. Louis probably improved the general living standards in the Gateway City, but that's just me.
• 43:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, being informed of his birthday, the Dark Soul and Light Soul had merged.
• 43:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: He then goes to break up a Satanic cult with Catherine.
• 43:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: She clearly got over the slap.
• 43:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's still going with him.
• 43:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Damon Wynn, question mark.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Byron Hayett, who is a student priest.
• 43:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's often there to act as a sounding board or to question what Damon's doing.
• 43:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
• 43:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: They break up the cult.
• 43:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sure, he is possessed briefly by his father.
• 43:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: They stopped the call.
• 43:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: The possession was a minor thing.
• 43:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: No one was horribly disfigured or slapped.
• 43:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't slap anyone this time, so take that as W. Finally, the 4,000 holes, you know, what is there to say about this?
• 43:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: He was fighting the lead unit of Nile, let's go.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you walk include, it appears to be a Roman cosplayer, a Nazi, a bunch of bikers,
• 44:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: These are not upstanding citizens, these are not good people, it was through their negligence in digging those 4,000 holes that allowed the hellfire while he was trying to stop them to summon the great snake, come with us, you can't blame Damon for that, he was doing his civic duty to stop these biker Roman Nazis, something is wild.
• 44:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Also, as a sidebar, I mean, this is a Beatles reference, it's a Beatles joke, the 4,000 holes in black for Lancashire.
• 44:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a, okay, clever, time travel.
• 44:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who knew that he could time travel?
• 44:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know he could time travel up to this point.
• 44:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think any of the writers or editors knew that he could time travel up to this point, but he can time travel.
• 44:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: It means it's magic.
• 44:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: In Marvel magic, it's all defined.
• 44:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: He went back.
• 44:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: He stops.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: He fights Adam,
• 44:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
• 45:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
• 45:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But he stopped him.
• 45:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: He saves the day.
• 45:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, anything.
• 45:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: David Holstrom is a hero and should be commended.
• 45:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: On the prosecution side, this is a terrible man who slaps women around.
• 45:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's completely unrestrained and is completely terrible towards native peoples.
• 45:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Accidentally set 4,000 holes on fire that is massive property damage.
• 45:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: If it's not criminal, it's at least torcious and he should have to pay to fill in those goddamn holes.
• 45:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: He also lied to a bunch of ice demons and that's not cool because they don't get to come to Earth that often and this is how you treat them But I'm just wondering quickly.
• 45:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever seen 4,000 holes?
• 45:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: What I do with the Eagles my own business chair
• 45:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm thinking about that scene where he's reading his mom's diary and weeping and like just I don't know I don't know if that makes him more innocent or less innocent, but I was just thinking about how I would cry if I had to read my mom's sexy diary.
• 45:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would cry if I inherited from my mother a diary where she recounts banging the devil.
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I would cry for multiple reasons.
• 46:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: It really explains a lot about him though, doesn't it?
• 46:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that he did find this book and it was just like he needed to know.
• 46:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Satan is like, I already know.
• 46:20
  [SPEAKER_07]: He found the book and it was just the diary from Mamma Mia.
• 46:25
  [SPEAKER_07]: And he is crying.
• 46:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's like, I think the worst thing he did in this section is like just violence and misogyny.
• 46:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: But otherwise, I think he's kind of, I think he's kind of a banger hero in this section actually.
• 46:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's kicking some ass in his own unique way.
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's hard to watch him slap his friend and give him anything that's below a three, but I will say that it is only a three because the covers just absolutely bang, like they just bang.
• 46:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're so good.
• 46:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a three for me as well.
• 46:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoyed this arc of comics.
• 46:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: They are wild and they don't even really fit together, but it's fun.
• 47:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to continue the three train is a hero obviously, but you should keep your hands to yourself.
• 47:06
  [SPEAKER_08]: I think I'd say a three as well.
• 47:08
  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I was between a three and a four and mostly for the egregious behavior in terms of slapping and the language and things like that.
• 47:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: But a lot of the stuff, it seemed like it was like, whoops, I just caused about 4,000 holes to open up.
• 47:21
  [SPEAKER_08]: What's that mean?
• 47:21
  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, like, it was like, oops, he was an accident.
• 47:25
  [SPEAKER_08]: So, like, I can't really fault him for that.
• 47:27
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, who hasn't, who hasn't done that?
• 47:30
  [SPEAKER_08]: Who hasn't stolen a trident?
• 47:31
  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, like, whatever, you know, like,
• 47:33
  [SPEAKER_08]: Those were, you know, useful antics.
• 47:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: So is that three for you?
• 47:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Pretty.
• 47:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: His giant, like, I don't know, his pre-appus snake, just like form in our unreality.
• 47:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
• 47:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I got to go with the one, like he, I, slapping slapping cathartens.
• 47:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Unforgivable.
• 47:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: All of the other stuff.
• 47:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was her own behavior and mistakes were made and I mean, their exigent circumstances and just think about this poor man's childhood.
• 48:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: His father is literally Satan.
• 48:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Which makes it wild that he chose his superhero name to be the son of Satan.
• 48:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Which is crazy.
• 48:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: Shoulder workshopped it a little bit more.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It gives us 16 out of 30 in this section.
• 48:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to jump to trial point.
• 48:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: to which is dry my nextists and the demons.
• 48:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: The key issues here, Marvel team up 32, Marvel Spotlight 24, Marvel 2114, Howard the Duck 13, Defenders 100 and 105.
• 48:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Ascendry member here is my friend Matt Parent.
• 48:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Matt, I have a lot of friends through this show.
• 48:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: You are my only non-binary Jewish Native American friend.
• 48:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm so happy to have you here, because we're gonna go to Wyatt Wingfoot, which I'm excited to hear your thoughts on.
• 48:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: When the demon drum and extras possess white wingfoot, Damon teamed up with the human torch to save him.
• 48:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: They traveled to the Kiwazi Reservation in Oklahoma, where Damon knocked Dremenex just out of Wyatt's form, but the demon took over other native characters.
• 49:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: During the ensuing fight, Damon's evil side began to take over, and the human torch had defied him, but Damon didn't snap out of it until he'd almost strangled the young human torch to death.
• 49:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Back in control, Damon vanished to dramatectus.
• 49:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon was then hired to ex-EXOR exercise, Gloria Halford from possession, by Kafar, a mother of demons, but he accidentally destroyed his own sister, Satana, and an error of judgment.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: able to revive herself due to the Basilisk within her.
• 49:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk more about that later.
• 49:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana ended up banishing Kathara instead when Damon proved to be overwhelmed.
• 49:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana promised to go after Damon when they next met.
• 49:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the ghost town of Lallis, Arizona, Damon draw that drawn there by mystic energies found the thing on an investigation of his own.
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: They found Kathara possessing the corpse of Jedi or Ravenstorm.
• 49:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thing ended up briefly possessed before Damon skewered the corpse with his triedin, which allowed the ghosts of the town of lawless to turn, uncathara, and destroy the demon.
• 49:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Summoned to a mental facility in Sauer-Braton, Ohio,
• 50:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon investigated the patient windowwester and determined she had psychic powers and was not possessed.
• 50:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then when some weird supervillains showed up called the Yucky's and the evil doctor right, hey guys, weren't Howard the duck if you couldn't tell.
• 50:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon's dark soul manifested, got disrupted, and ended up possessing Howard the duck.
• 50:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: This mutated Howard into like a cute little evil form.
• 50:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: The evil Howard caused General Chaos before Damon hit him with a car in order to take his dark soul back.
• 50:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: He did save Howard's soul in the process, such as it may be.
• 50:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: After a series of complex battles with the six-pingered hand, Damon began building a relationship with Patsy Walker who was being driven mad into believing that she was the daughter of the devil herself.
• 50:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: And she was changed into a demonic fiery form of her superhero name, Hellcat.
• 50:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satan made a play to take over Earth with the other helllords, but in a key moment, Damon turned against the devil and fought his father in solo combat.
• 50:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: The devil was unable to slay Damon at a key moment, saying that he loved his son, which allowed the defenders to lend their power to the dark soul, giving Damon enough power to defeat his father.
• 51:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now fully transformed, Damon found himself trapped in hell, but months later, he was sent back to Earth by the devil for a series of tests.
• 51:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: after refusing to kill a baby that was actually the demon maladrill, Damon refused to complete a satanic ritualistic crucifixion, and officially chose to embrace his human side, the devil surprised Damon by telling him that he was the right choice, and he revealed a great secret that there's an aspect of holiness even in the devil himself.
• 51:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Those last few issues are written by my friend, J.M.D.M.D.M.T.A.S.
• 51:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: and they rock.
• 51:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me turn it over to Matt Paret.
• 51:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I will start with the prosecution.
• 51:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dane and Hilström is a dangerous, emotionally unstable man who changes sides of the drop of a hat.
• 51:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: He cannot be trusted as Johnny Storm or his sister Satana or Howard the Duck who he should be tried for attempted murder.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: On the flight to the Gloria Hafford possession, it is important to note that Damon has a dream about his sister kissing him.
• 52:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is the catalyst that leads him to believe that she, not Kathara, is the demon that needs to be.
• 52:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Smite it.
• 52:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is only satanas, uh, wiles that like save the day, uh, there.
• 52:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: The reckless entertainment of Howard is totally Damon's fault.
• 52:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Damon transforming your Howard and Howard taking the Dark Soul, uh, lead to Howard behaving in a way that he definitely would not have otherwise towards his lover Beverly.
• 52:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Damon is also pretty bad at extra-sism.
• 52:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's manipulated in Kathara, Bikothara, into killing Satana, and in his own father's trial, like in hell, he can't tell the difference between a baby and a demon.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: and his whole job is getting demons out of people.
• 52:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it is essentially a malpractice and attempted murder for a demon hellster.
• 53:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I will then do the defense.
• 53:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is actually Damon behaving quite heroically, almost entirely throughout all of this.
• 53:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: He, yes, he makes a lot of mistakes, but he is behaving in such a way that he is trying to save people.
• 53:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: He does not, he,
• 53:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: stops himself from killing Johnny Storm.
• 53:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: He saves all of the Kiawazi people and why it went foot.
• 53:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: He helps the thing.
• 53:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: He helps Howard.
• 53:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: The duck.
• 53:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he hits him with a car, but that is the only way Howard is freed from the dark soul.
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is Damon behaving the way that a superhero behaves.
• 53:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: On top of that, if we're going to hold him accountable for his like bad
• 53:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: side.
• 53:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: There is subtle precedent in the gray malkin lane trials, which is in the trial of gene group gray.
• 53:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: It was decided that the actions of the Phoenix force were not the actions of gene gray.
• 53:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, the actions of the dark soul are not the actions of Damon Hellstrom.
• 53:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we can tell that these are two separate entities because it was split off into a completely different physiologically different being like how were the duck.
• 54:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, Damon Hellstrom is completely innocent.
• 54:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: uh... scouts ready with the phantom ex-defense now did the three ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
• 54:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: which woman and some of that, the way especially with Damon talks about her, I didn't love.
• 54:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think that the story with the Kiwazi has an amount of humanity for them, not necessarily in the artwork, so much as in the...
• 54:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: the plot and the like the characterization of these characters.
• 54:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: I felt I felt okay about how they were characterized.
• 54:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't totally love how the especially when the Kewazi get all of them get possessed.
• 54:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a sort of like mobness to the way that they're they're sort of drawn.
• 54:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: But that's it.
• 54:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love that there are so many native characters in all of these Damon House from Stories.
• 54:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I, especially in the 70s, it's like where there's there's precious little.
• 54:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was glad to see them and it was good.
• 55:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I sincerely was like, it was important for him to go say to these people, that was good.
• 55:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like all of the stories in this section.
• 55:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it really fun.
• 55:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: By different creative teams in different time periods, but it's a pretty fun through life.
• 55:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: The only one I had read were the two Howard The.com.
• 55:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know you can hear that I like Howard The.com the way that you guys don't.
• 55:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I was surprised at how much I love the defender's stories, a series that I really have read precious little of, man, that story is really good.
• 55:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's 100, the annual amazing.
• 55:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: uh, I want to be clear.
• 55:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like how we're the duck.
• 55:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: I do not like steamgurper.
• 55:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to offer something maybe that might help um just basically the no matter what judgment we give Damon that we're never going to be as good at judging him as satana um right at the end of that one issue the Marvel spotlight.
• 55:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to read what she says, which is, don't touch me, Damon.
• 55:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't you ever touch me.
• 55:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: We chose our destinies a long time ago, brother.
• 56:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You the right hand path of good and either left.
• 56:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll walk those roads until we die.
• 56:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Still, we might have been friends once.
• 56:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But no more, and she likes slaps him away.
• 56:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Cross my path again, brother, and I'll look on you and see a cringing shivering, pitiful little mortal man.
• 56:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll look on you.
• 56:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I will take your soul and laugh at the taking of it and she walks away.
• 56:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's glorious, everyone stay tuned.
• 56:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll get there to admit it.
• 56:28
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to go with a two because I think you come into me with the with the jean gray claws.
• 56:33
  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I was, uh, I'm going to give it a two as well.
• 56:35
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm on behalf of Satana.
• 56:37
  [SPEAKER_08]: I was like, you know, he, he really messed it up and yeah.
• 56:41
  [SPEAKER_08]: So I agree with you Sarah, that was a glorious moment and for Satana, I'm going to say you at least
• 56:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, cool things.
• 56:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, choking Johnny Storm.
• 56:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a huge Johnny Storm fan.
• 56:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes Johnny Storm does need to be choked, but I was between a two and a one.
• 56:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to go to one and what's swayed me was hitting Howard the duck with his car.
• 57:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: That moved it from a two to a one.
• 57:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to agree with that.
• 57:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go with a one as well because of that and because once again like I this man has been burned so badly on the page by his sister that it's just like I he's already been tried in a court of law as far as I'm concerned it's going to be a three for me here.
• 57:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't buy the dark soul is the Phoenix force defense.
• 57:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's creative, but I think like magic's dark child is not the same as like the shadow king taking possession of someone, right?
• 57:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a level of responsibility.
• 57:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like these stories and I think he's a hero in these stories, especially when you see what's about to happen.
• 57:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I do think it's about a three for me.
• 57:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm going to go with the two.
• 57:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that he is trying to be so heroic.
• 57:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: What he does to Satanna is pretty bad.
• 57:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that gives us an 11 out of 30 in section two.
• 57:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go on to trial point three, which we are calling the monsters of evil.
• 58:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: These are some wild comics else, and I hope you had fun with these modern versions of this character.
• 58:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: The key issues here are fantastic for annual 1999, Thunderbolts annual 2000, fear itself the fearless and venom volume two numbers 23 through 25.
• 58:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I want to be clear, I left out a lot of this character's modern history.
• 58:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I left out a lot of the Patsy Walker crazy, the bunny stalker crazy.
• 58:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's the Lord of Hell at that point.
• 58:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just like nothing defensively.
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I kept it to some pretty manageable sections.
• 58:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, as an interim, just so people understand, after Damon grew ill, separated from his dark soul, Patsy used a spellbook to summon the devil who restored the evil to Damon, but a drove Patsy mad, and she took her own life through death.
• 58:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Shortly after that, he killed the devil took his place in hell and gets increasingly more evil as time goes by.
• 58:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, in this section, what we're reviewing.
• 58:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: When Blackheart, the son of Mephisto, and Celine took over the Hellfire Club in New York, they made a plan to take over Earth and over a while with Hell.
• 59:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon was captured by the duo, but a series of unlikely allies joined to stop them, including the Fantastic Four, Margali Shardos, and Mechamej, the new hero who combines tech and magic together.
• 59:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon and Margale cast a spell to draw on the elemental archetypes, and they trapped Black Heart inside the Hellfire Club.
• 59:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the end, Damon was appointed the Hellfire Club's new White King, and he secretly appointed Jane Cudder to be his White Queen.
• 59:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Later, Damon completed an elaborate series of deception, drawing the Thunderbolts, and more specifically Hawkeye, in a two-hull at the promise of restoring Mockingbird to life.
• 59:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: After the heroes won a battle in Hell against Mephisto for Damon, he sent them back to Earth, but restored Patsy Walker to life instead.
• 59:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: During the fear itself of it, Damon allied himself with sin, crossbones, and the department of a cult armament, DOA, an ancient cult of magic aligned with Nazi ideologies, very akin to the fool society from real life.
• 1:00:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: When Valkyrie and the Avengers tried retrieving one of the Serpent's hammers from Project Pegasus, Halstrom blasted Wolverine with an overwhelming amount of Hellfire and escaped, Sin was later defeated as was the serpent.
• 1:00:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: When Flash Thompson became Agent Venom in an incredible run of comics, he was sent to investigate DOA, uh, who had formed possession engines, which allowed demons to possess humans in mechanical pods.
• 1:00:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: The son of Satan got involved and incinerated at least one of the possessed humans then he mutated venom into a monster form as a demon possessed him at drawing upon the devil's mark that Mephisto had placed on the symbiotes.
• 1:00:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't worry about it.
• 1:00:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: X2-3 is involved in this story though.
• 1:00:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then I'm a tracked
• 1:00:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: zoo where the son of Satan and his followers unleashed the evil monsters of evil, ancient monsters possessed by demons.
• 1:00:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Upon the hero, including a massive skeletal bull, a stinks from ancient Egypt, an alien worm god, the subterranean gragoa, a totem pole monster, and a skunk ape.
• 1:01:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: As we had a total of months again, which gives us native ideology in all three sections, which is crazy to me.
• 1:01:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: The skunket breathes fire, by the way, if you wanted to know, how strong's eventual goal is to power up his kingdom with the monsters in charge of various realms, and then eventually have the strength to conquer Mufisto's hell, as well as a territory expansion.
• 1:01:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: In the end, Venom ends up resisting control, sending the monsters away, and House from is very briefly imprisoned before he goes on to torture Patsy Walker, some more.
• 1:01:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me turn it over to Allison Parent.
• 1:01:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I may just be a simple Southern lawyer.
• 1:01:38
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm kidding, I'm not going to do the whole thing.
• 1:01:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: So what if you're sorry?
• 1:01:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: So I'm going to do the defense first.
• 1:01:46
  [SPEAKER_07]: My client saved the fantastic four.
• 1:01:50
  [SPEAKER_07]: The fantastic four were in trouble and he came in and he got to do the little thing where you know when Facebook quizzes were a thing and everyone wanted to take them all the time.
• 1:01:58
  [SPEAKER_07]: He got to give the fantastic four elements and yeah, are to them kind of already done for you because ones of rock and ones made out of fire, yes, but he did the very important work of assigning water to read and air to sue.
• 1:02:10
  [SPEAKER_07]: Also, he imprisoned Blackheart, who's basically his cousin.
• 1:02:15
  [SPEAKER_07]: So I think that shows that he wasn't willing to bin the rules on that.
• 1:02:18
  [SPEAKER_07]: And he doesn't overstay as welcome.
• 1:02:19
  [SPEAKER_07]: He comes in.
• 1:02:20
  [SPEAKER_07]: He saves the fantastic four and then he's like, I gotta go find a white queen and then he leaves.
• 1:02:24
  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's it.
• 1:02:25
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's really not adding a lot of this book.
• 1:02:28
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that not overstaying your welcome is a good quality to have.
• 1:02:32
  [SPEAKER_07]: In Thunderbolt, someone goes to his door to look for him and how can my client be accused of anything when he wasn't even home at the time?
• 1:02:40
  [SPEAKER_07]: He has an alibi.
• 1:02:42
  [SPEAKER_07]: We get to see him in his hero suit, which is very cool, but then he changes basically into David Tennant from Good Omen's, and that is also very cool.
• 1:02:49
  [SPEAKER_07]: So I love that design.
• 1:02:51
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's got a big haircut.
• 1:02:53
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's fun.
• 1:02:54
  [SPEAKER_07]: And he even says, you don't know what I've been through.
• 1:02:57
  [SPEAKER_07]: And ladies and gentlemen, we don't.
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_07]: We don't know what he's been through.
• 1:03:00
  [SPEAKER_07]: and maybe we should have a little bit of empathy.
• 1:03:02
  [SPEAKER_07]: And he is responsible for keeping those demons in check, which he does, and he saves Patsy Walker's soul and he stops a war with he's supposed to save mockingbird's soul.
• 1:03:12
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, but that doesn't discount the fact that he saves someone.
• 1:03:16
  [SPEAKER_07]: He helps save Las Vegas with venom and also he's very sexy.
• 1:03:20
  [SPEAKER_07]: Have we talked about that yet?
• 1:03:21
  [SPEAKER_07]: The fact that he's very sexy.
• 1:03:23
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that should be counted in his defense.
• 1:03:26
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's also very flirty.
• 1:03:27
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's like, oh, what are you gonna do?
• 1:03:28
  [SPEAKER_07]: Eat my brains?
• 1:03:29
  [SPEAKER_07]: Very flirty.
• 1:03:30
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that gives him a couple points.
• 1:03:32
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think really the only jail that my client should be in is horny jail.
• 1:03:38
  [SPEAKER_07]: He likes manners.
• 1:03:40
  [SPEAKER_07]: He wants his disciples to welcome them into the cult.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: He even lets Venom eat that guy.
• 1:03:45
  [SPEAKER_07]: That is a good hospitality.
• 1:03:47
  [SPEAKER_07]: That's a good host.
• 1:03:48
  [SPEAKER_07]: And he went through the trouble of making his disciples look like they were asking Venom to eat him.
• 1:03:55
  [SPEAKER_07]: Just so it was a little bit more comfortable.
• 1:03:57
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's some really nice touches that I think even Martha Stewart wouldn't think of when having a cult dinner party and guiding someone in.
• 1:04:04
  [SPEAKER_07]: And let's not forget that those monsters of evil before they met him were aimless.
• 1:04:09
  [SPEAKER_07]: He gave them a purpose.
• 1:04:11
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's a benevolent employer.
• 1:04:12
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's happy to accept surrender, so he's not cruel.
• 1:04:16
  [SPEAKER_07]: And he's very concerned once he's in prison that Venom gets a chair to sit down on.
• 1:04:21
  [SPEAKER_07]: Does Venom deny it?
• 1:04:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, but he's very concerned about wanting to give him a chair.
• 1:04:25
  [SPEAKER_07]: Is it because he wants to see him in the tight outfit, probably?
• 1:04:28
  [SPEAKER_07]: But he's still being kind.
• 1:04:30
  [SPEAKER_07]: And also, Venom says the worst joke known to man.
• 1:04:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: He says, oh, like, there's something along the lines of where do you come from, crazy school?
• 1:04:39
  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's so bad.
• 1:04:40
  [SPEAKER_07]: And yet, and yet, Damon goes, crazy school.
• 1:04:43
  [SPEAKER_07]: I like that.
• 1:04:44
  [SPEAKER_07]: He gives a little pity, like he doesn't laugh, but he does, he does give him a pity like.
• 1:04:48
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that you wouldn't do that if you weren't a nice guy.
• 1:04:51
  [SPEAKER_07]: He even says, sometimes you do the wrong things for the right reasons.
• 1:04:55
  [SPEAKER_07]: And maybe we shouldn't be focusing on the wrong things, but maybe we should be focusing on the right reasons.
• 1:04:59
  [SPEAKER_07]: Now for the prosecution, he did just left mocking bird and hell.
• 1:05:03
  [SPEAKER_07]: He flat out just turned sides in the middle of a battle.
• 1:05:07
  [SPEAKER_07]: Like they turned around and he wasn't there anymore and he had teamed up with Nazis.
• 1:05:11
  [SPEAKER_07]: Like there was no struggle of conscience.
• 1:05:15
  [SPEAKER_07]: It was just, no, I'm on the Nazi side now.
• 1:05:18
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's described as betraying everyone who's ever stood by his side.
• 1:05:22
  [SPEAKER_07]: And as we know, that's not a girl's girl who's not loyal.
• 1:05:24
  [SPEAKER_07]: he has a call and he lets venom eat those guys he he makes them beg for their own destruction which is kind of messed up he smacks people with a pitch fork he has monsters of evil which some might say is perhaps a mark of evil that demon cow does try to eat venom that's not nice and he gets beaten by his own monsters of evil so badly off panel we don't even get to see it it's just a sound effect and then he's on the ground we don't even get to see him get his ass
• 1:05:52
  [SPEAKER_07]: He's also very Hannibal Lecter at the end there, you know what they say, no shirt, no shoes, no service.
• 1:06:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are occasionally defenses or prosecutions using my show that are T-shirt were the baby crimes, this is one of my all-time favorites, but the only jail he deserves is horny jail is one of my all-time favorite.
• 1:06:14
  [SPEAKER_08]: But I've ever heard any of these trials ever I'm having a hard time because I was like going down a rabbit hole I was like excuse me, the what does skunky the what what like you know like
• 1:06:25
  [SPEAKER_08]: There's a lot going on, but like when when you're talking about aligning yourself with Nazis, it's like, oh, that's that's not cool.
• 1:06:34
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm gonna do a five.
• 1:06:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, hoping to fantastic for great restoring Patsy Walker.
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
• 1:06:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: The alloying with the Nazis, not so much.
• 1:06:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then attacking and hurting disabled American war hero flash Thompson.
• 1:06:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's problematic.
• 1:06:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I got to give it a four.
• 1:06:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a four.
• 1:06:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't have his big cape to protect him anymore from my judgment, so four.
• 1:07:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a kind five for me in a way.
• 1:07:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll share why I say the word timed and just moment, but it's pure evil at this point.
• 1:07:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think in this section, despite my partner's very good defense of the witness, it's a five.
• 1:07:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can't team up with sin and not going to five.
• 1:07:17
  [SPEAKER_07]: That's fair.
• 1:07:19
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to give him a four just because I think he was a really good host in offering him a snack.
• 1:07:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: That gives us a 27 out of 30 in that session, which is a 54 out of 90, which gives this guy 60% on the asshole scale, which is fair.
• 1:07:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, interesting.
• 1:07:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to toss this out and I waited until this point.
• 1:07:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: What if it is this character's very nature to be conflicted?
• 1:07:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's the way he's designed, and there's a great balancing for every good act he does.
• 1:07:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: There must be an evil act.
• 1:07:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so the evil axi chooses that his human side feels good about it in an odd way.
• 1:07:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's an interesting kind of bartering system because Satanna is not a character who has any conflict about who she is.
• 1:08:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: It is not a problem for her to be exactly what exists within her form.
• 1:08:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to now talk about the incredible character, Satanna.
• 1:08:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, as far as I can tell in my research, the origins of Sakibai, which is the plural of Sakibas, come from medieval European folklore, but the story of beautiful women feasting on men through their feminine wiles is a custom given far too much in all tradition, beginning with even the Bible, at least in my own upbringing.
• 1:08:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't you want to eat the fruit?
• 1:08:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Adam and Eve will snake give it to me.
• 1:08:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you eat it, you get to notice that I'm naked for the first time.
• 1:08:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's crazy.
• 1:08:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: But in Jewish mythology, we meet Lilith, the first wife of Adam, who was made from the earth.
• 1:08:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: She refused to submit to Adam, fled from Eden, going on to become the kind of night demon who seduces men and feeds on babies.
• 1:08:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's this evil woman trope that's been there right from the beginning.
• 1:08:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's linked to the demon race of the Lillin and is thus the mother of all succubies, uh, Lilith is a different character in Marvel, in fact there's a few versions of them.
• 1:09:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, the himbo version of a succubus is called an incubus.
• 1:09:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the the guy that drains your soul by kissing you.
• 1:09:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Luckily, we have our own resident expert on lesbian vampires here.
• 1:09:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Sarah, what's a succuby?
• 1:09:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever thoughts you're here here is amazing.
• 1:09:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Huh, what is one?
• 1:09:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:09:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess like they're a little bit different from lesbian vampire, but I know what you'd say that because there's a lot of crossover, right?
• 1:09:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've got your kind of like a femme fatale, for instance.
• 1:09:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's like another character that I think is like there to use her feminine while to destroy men.
• 1:09:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, she doesn't care and she's happy about it.
• 1:09:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sekibe's the same deal pretty much like she has more of like mystical powers, but it is very specifically draining people of the opposite sex.
• 1:09:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's usually something they go out of their way to say in the stories.
• 1:09:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: People of the opposite sex, whatever opposite sex is, and basically will drain all of the energy of this person until they whither into a husk.
• 1:09:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's basically like,
• 1:10:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: basically.
• 1:10:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like kind of the very deep fear that I think some men are experiencing here.
• 1:10:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that Seki buses are super interesting, as you say, they've been in mythology.
• 1:10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're all over the place.
• 1:10:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a different like, you know, tweaks to the premise, I think, you know, like a lesbian vampire is what if they're so sexy, but also we're excluded from it.
• 1:10:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think for, and it is like once again, generally now there's a lot more lesbian vampire stories that are
• 1:10:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: generally, these were stories that were being told by straight men.
• 1:10:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: The same with female or femme fatales, because I think them fatales are pretty dynky, frankly.
• 1:10:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like, nobody ever really brings that part of them up.
• 1:10:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, people always kind of are like, well, they're here to destroy men.
• 1:10:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, there's something they're delighted and going after these men, kind of in the same way the satana is.
• 1:10:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that one of the most popular things that features the sake of is that people might know is like,
• 1:10:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: for modern is Jennifer's body, right?
• 1:10:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the film Jennifer's body, Megan Fox, please the suck you guys.
• 1:11:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, there's so much commentary in that movie that's just devout like, well, why is why?
• 1:11:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why are men so scared of like this sexy person who is admittedly there to like a drain and kill them, right?
• 1:11:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: but she feels like the hero.
• 1:11:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: She feels kind of righteous and I think that that's what we see a lot with Satanna where yeah sometimes the writing is not there the characterizations all over the place but she's kind of likable in a way that I think we've all kind of said that maybe Damon is
• 1:11:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: But back to the trial of Shana the She-Devil.
• 1:11:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: We've got the name Devil in the name where she's the woman that needs to be conquered and tamed where there's this like male power fantasy and in so many ways here.
• 1:11:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now go here Sarah brilliantly talk about the character Aurora on Ceribro with Connor.
• 1:11:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Where the hornun trope is brought up here.
• 1:11:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana is just horror, there's no nun, which is fun because David and Damon has a priest side.
• 1:11:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Damon is the hornun, but Satana is just horror, which is great because she owns it.
• 1:12:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's so competent in her succumous nature.
• 1:12:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to say because there's a sex work crossover right like that's something it will appear in the part that I'm talking about but also like quite like on the page she's regularly kind of associated with like she has a roommate at a certain point who's like her coworker, you know, or something basically is so
• 1:12:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's something that's really interesting about that that they don't delve into because sex working comics is a really fraught subject.
• 1:12:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of sex workers that appear in comics that are portrayed incredibly badly.
• 1:12:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that Satan definitely falls into some of those tropes all of the time.
• 1:12:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Where she's just so evil and she's going to take everything from you, right?
• 1:12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like never does the man have any responsibility in this situation whatsoever.
• 1:12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Rob all of your energy and your virility of you, you know, in comics in general, I would love to hear more addressing what like the actual Libertaryality of sex workers is as opposed to always having to make them either victims or Predators basically gold diggers or whatever
• 1:13:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that all of those are really harmful tropes that we see again and again, but I do appreciate whenever I see satana with other women.
• 1:13:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is an implication that there are sex workers.
• 1:13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think like I might be reading a bit much into it, but that's how I feel.
• 1:13:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're something I like about her.
• 1:13:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: If we consider Damon to be a mama's boy, we have to recognize Satana as Satana as a daddy's girl.
• 1:13:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: The daughter of the devil, the favored child of Martin Cureus, at least in their youth, Satana liked to kill pets to honor her father when she was a kid, even when she was very small, which is giving that serial killer like experimenting on animals by which is unfortunate.
• 1:13:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: She was then isolated in her youth, and after her mother was driven insane, she was taken to hell where Damon was when it was foster care.
• 1:13:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Tana went to hell to be instructed by her father and ended up sold bound to a basalist demon.
• 1:13:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk about it at a moment.
• 1:13:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: She was given a sucky bus costume when she was 10 as well as a cat familiar named Exiters.
• 1:14:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: They think of kind of like Agatha Harkness's Ebony or Bloodlines while purges.
• 1:14:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: She was trained in magic by the demon Dan's skirt and given the demon Zanarth as her slave.
• 1:14:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Someone to toy with and practice her cruelty on, but in times of Tana was banished from hell forced to return to the mortal world.
• 1:14:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: While here, she began praying on men who crossed her path.
• 1:14:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes someone had to hurt her, someone had to kiss her, some of the men were in pain, but Tana, who was mostly peacefully co-exist with humanity,
• 1:14:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: She sees them as useful or as annoying, maybe as attractive, or maybe able to serve her, but she doesn't really seem to want to be cruel to them, objectively at least.
• 1:14:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: She just needs to eat, or build up her power sometimes, now there are versions of that story.
• 1:14:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's amused by humanity mostly, although she does seem to favor humans that are aesthetically beautiful to hang around with.
• 1:14:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: In a series of her early adventures written by men like Chris Claremont, Satana goes on a quest to get revenge on those who had vanished her soul.
• 1:15:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: She feeds on men, yes, but then takes the quest to hell itself where she confronts her father and then turns her back on and once again, these are incredible stories for the time resulting or running in books like vampire tales and haunt of horror, the black and white books that Susan mentioned at the beginning of the show.
• 1:15:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana House from his half-mortal, half King of Hell, a resulting in her being all sucky this.
• 1:15:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Super strong and resistant to magic, Satana is also an expert manipulator of magic.
• 1:15:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: She can levitate strip away false images, strip away human souls to reveal their evils, but the best part is she needs to feed on men to survive.
• 1:15:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: With a single kiss she drains their souls, and if she eats extra, she gets stronger.
• 1:15:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: And in one story, by the way, she puts her a hem bodily fluids into bullets and then sends men out to kill in her name because that way when the bullet kills these people, she gets the soul without ever having to kiss the men in the first place.
• 1:16:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: In her youth, she was bonded to a vascularist demon that she could summon to slaughter her foes, but every time she used it, she lost more control over it until the vascularist
• 1:16:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: killed her.
• 1:16:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: But she's much more consistent as a character than Damon.
• 1:16:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's a bad bitch boss.
• 1:16:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's an evil hunter.
• 1:16:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's a sexy lesbian.
• 1:16:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Relationships are hinted at she's there's even a panel of her kissing Angela like Thor's sister at one point.
• 1:16:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's a witch who will sacrifice herself to save the planet if it's her destiny.
• 1:16:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's on the witches.
• 1:16:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: She works for the hood.
• 1:16:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's in the howling commandos.
• 1:16:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then she's recruited by Luke Cage into the Thunderbolts during their time as the prison reform group.
• 1:16:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And this run is glorious.
• 1:16:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really love it, and I love Satana's presence at it.
• 1:16:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really fun.
• 1:16:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Just as any wonderful superhero stories with the wonkyest cast of characters traveling across time.
• 1:16:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Man thing is on this team.
• 1:16:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana gets to mark him up with magic and help them evolve into a new being that can talk.
• 1:16:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: So if you've ever needed to see what Satana can do with a man thing, now you know.
• 1:16:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: She trolls Moonstone constantly even grabs her boobs once they fight zombies They fight in the fear itself crossover.
• 1:17:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: They get trapped moving backward in time Or they fight Nazis and ancient spirits and she's like sorceress Supreme character on the team It's fun.
• 1:17:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's more.
• 1:17:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the tenest most consistent character arc and she's very Betty Paige through this series One rider at her home for a long period of time for the first time and she's a magic powerhouse She ends up getting her own hell realm and Jim Morrison is there by the way
• 1:17:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: She joins the spirits of vengeance briefly, adventures with other supernatural heroes briefly.
• 1:17:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And in the Ian McNeymarvel Terrow series, we note that Satana, he says in a quote there, that Satana tries out personalities like some women try on shoes and I find the specific detail delightful.
• 1:17:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Susan, what are your thoughts on the Basilisk demon?
• 1:17:46
  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's a really interesting point and it's, I don't bring it up too much in the prosecution and defense, but it's an issue that we see in a lot of these characters.
• 1:17:54
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like, how much is the Basilisk and how much is her, you know, because it's like, I think she has this dark thing within her that sometimes takes over.
• 1:18:04
  [SPEAKER_08]: And I mean, it's also, I think, a typical Marvel plot point like to excuse people or to emphasize that we
• 1:18:12
  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they're not that bad, or maybe it's the Basilisk.
• 1:18:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: And so it's sort of an interesting conceit that I see, think we see in Marvel a lot.
• 1:18:21
  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's also, I think, a good choice for them, because it looks really cool, you know?
• 1:18:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't have the dark soul.
• 1:18:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: She gets bonded to a demon instead.
• 1:18:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
• 1:18:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
• 1:18:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to hear from Scott Ormat on Satana's connection to her father.
• 1:18:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: What are your thoughts on this then like double-daughter relationship?
• 1:18:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's super interesting that we were talking about how like satana is is like an explicitly queer character and Damon is sort of like a not explicitly and maybe sort of like closeted.
• 1:18:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Damon, they're both from hell.
• 1:18:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Damon lived his life not being of hell and satana lived her life being of hell, so is like more her, she's like more confident in the real person
• 1:19:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: is sort of a gateway to being the person that she's supposed to be, but she's from hell, so of course that it would be.
• 1:19:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that contrast with Damon, who, yes, he is Satan's son, but he's also a repressed Catholic boy from Western Massachusetts.
• 1:19:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: You just have to take into account that he has preconceived notions about human society and life that Satanna who
• 1:19:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Doing whatever she wanted is her father was in charge of hell doesn't exactly have so many of those hangups And then let me hear from Allison and then Susan on Satana's fashion I got to said you guys some really funny images of this character and I know you have thoughts
• 1:19:47
  [SPEAKER_07]: She's a badass bitch.
• 1:19:49
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that she is the 70s is such a fun time.
• 1:19:52
  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that her stuff is the 70s.
• 1:19:55
  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, some of it.
• 1:19:56
  [SPEAKER_07]: But I think that her, the leather, the black, the everything is, it's everything.
• 1:20:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone think of like Madeline Triar as the goblin queen, but then it would give half the fabric.
• 1:20:08
  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know so much fun, so much fun, like, and different artists have different kind of versions of it, but there's this commonality, this sort of the black, it's kind of sometimes it's a crop top, sometimes it's a wonderful unitard with these cutouts through the center of her belly, and it's just gloriously ridiculous, and she has, like, these furry boots that she pairs with it, and I'm like, ooh, bold choice, you know,
• 1:20:37
  [SPEAKER_08]: unexpected the furry boots.
• 1:20:39
  [SPEAKER_08]: She has these like extendable eyebrows that sort of form horns sometimes and in this sound terrible, right?
• 1:20:47
  [SPEAKER_08]: You're like, oh, out of control eyebrows, that's a no-no.
• 1:20:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the poop has her x thing, but it's glorious on her.
• 1:20:53
  [SPEAKER_08]: right and they and so sometimes they kind of the they extend up and become like horns and then other times it's her bangs and then sometimes it's both sometimes he has bangs and eyebrow horns and then occasionally they just give her horns straight out but in these early ones that I was looking at I was like it takes so much confidence to pull off enormous horn type eyebrows like
• 1:21:19
  [SPEAKER_08]: only satana can do that.
• 1:21:21
  [SPEAKER_08]: It's, it's just glorious.
• 1:21:22
  [SPEAKER_08]: So I highly recommend that people check it out.
• 1:21:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: The food!
• 1:21:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god!
• 1:21:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I love her big areas, horns that she gets later on.
• 1:21:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think she's wearing like a pink leotard and has like big areas horns, or some would call them rams.
• 1:21:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm like astrology, so I suppose the marries.
• 1:21:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she looks great.
• 1:21:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think she always looks amazing.
• 1:21:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: If she's never had a bad outfit, even if she did have one, I would ignore it just because
• 1:21:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me ask, uh, two quick questions that will jump into the trash.
• 1:21:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Scott, uh, son of Satan, top or bottom.
• 1:21:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you have to be versatile when you're the son of Satan.
• 1:21:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah's century, it's the Tana, top or bottom.
• 1:22:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can find out more in my fan fiction that I wrote, um, where I'm a self-insert character.
• 1:22:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I, I mostly love the use of the word inserts.
• 1:22:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
• 1:22:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we're going to jump into this data trial.
• 1:22:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Part one is a drop point one is called from hell.
• 1:22:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: The key issues here are vampire tails 2 slash 7 when I say slash it's the 7th story in the second issue.
• 1:22:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Vampire tails number 3.
• 1:22:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hons of horror 2 slash 6.
• 1:22:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hons of horror 4 slash 1 and 4 slash.
• 1:22:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: three and a five slash four and Marvel Spotlight 24.
• 1:22:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is like the early Marvel horror books era.
• 1:22:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of satanic stuff written by different people.
• 1:22:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Some of them are pros.
• 1:22:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: I kept a lot of that stuff out.
• 1:22:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: I love the assigned jury member here as Susan Kirtley.
• 1:22:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Newly managed from house, satanic began surviving in the streets of New York City.
• 1:22:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: When a man walked after her and an alley with the intent to assault her, satanic kissed the man and drained his life, leaving his withered corpse in the alleyway.
• 1:23:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: later after dispersing a mob that intended to harm the Satan worshiping congregation of the Church of the Dark Father.
• 1:23:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana fed on another man and then befriended the cultist, Ruth Cummins.
• 1:23:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Assassin's Broke into Ruth's home and killed Ruth, so Satana ate all of their souls and then took the soul of corrupt politician Harry Gotham as well.
• 1:23:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana then moved in with another cultist Gloria Haferd and continued feeding on men like Lonely Hank Johnson.
• 1:23:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then Satana started thinking bigger.
• 1:23:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: She seduced a man named Rich Corbett and she manipulated him into killing a man named Miles Gorny who was an agent of the four who had blocked her from hell but the murderer of Gorny itself completed a spell ritual that further blocked Satana from hell so she killed Corbett as well.
• 1:23:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sotana entered hell with the demon slave that she'd had as a child, Zenarth.
• 1:23:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: In order to go after the four, Zenarth ended up dead.
• 1:23:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sotana drained the souls of three of the four, but the fourth one took the form of the aforementioned Miles Gourney, which baffled Sotana.
• 1:24:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then back on Earth, she was violently beaten by a group of soldiers working for Monsonior Jimmy Cruz, only saved by Exeter, her cat familiar, Satana found herself unable to feed on a priest Michael Heron, who had aided her, the first mortal ever to be immune to her.
• 1:24:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then she went after crews and his men feeding on many of them.
• 1:24:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Cragically, Exeter was killed by some and unguoried demons.
• 1:24:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: In time, Satan learned that her father had been Miles Gordy, and that all of this had been an elaborate test for satana.
• 1:24:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her dad was here disguised as a mortal.
• 1:24:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satan captured and mutilated the priest, Michael Harron, who ended up dead at the end of the battle, but Satana refused to feed on his soul just to spite her father, and she wound up managed from hell once again.
• 1:24:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: When Gloria Helford was possessed by the demon mother, Kathara, Satana was reunited with Damon when they both fought the demon, and here's the crossover we referenced earlier.
• 1:24:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Kathara tricked Damon into seeing Satana as the threat, then he burned her and hellfire, but the Basilisk that she was bonded with restored her to life.
• 1:25:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: After killing Kathara, Satana turned her back on Dame and promising to take his soul if she ever saw him again.
• 1:25:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me turn it over, Susan Curley.
• 1:25:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: Alright, thank you.
• 1:25:16
  [SPEAKER_08]: I always get nervous in this part because I, as I've mentioned before, I went to the LA McBeal School of Law and therefore, I get nervous about this part.
• 1:25:23
  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, the prosecution, the prosecution charges Satana Hellstrom and can you really think of a more damning name than Satana Hellstrom?
• 1:25:31
  [SPEAKER_08]: So,
• 1:25:31
  [SPEAKER_08]: We charge her with the murder of so many people, I lost count, I tried to count.
• 1:25:37
  [SPEAKER_08]: The succubus raised in hell and practiced in dark magic uses her seductive powers to lure men to her, then savagely kisses them, stealing their souls as their bodies whither to husks, as they die their souls depart in the form of fragile butterflies, and then she sends them to hell.
• 1:25:53
  [SPEAKER_08]: And it is a really amazing image.
• 1:25:55
  [SPEAKER_08]: These, you know, these little souls,
• 1:25:57
  [SPEAKER_08]: as butterflies.
• 1:25:58
  [SPEAKER_08]: She also brainwashes, as was previously mentioned, the former soldier rich Corbett and sends him to assassinate her adversary Miles Corny.
• 1:26:07
  [SPEAKER_08]: And what she realized that murdering Corny was whoops, a mistake, and set off a powerful spell.
• 1:26:12
  [SPEAKER_08]: she then kills Corbett as well.
• 1:26:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: Helstrom uses her powers, including her fascinating extendo eyebrows, which again, looks to her sounds terrible at what looks cool.
• 1:26:22
  [SPEAKER_08]: Her fabulous style, including those delightful boots and the cutout unit art, to intrans her victims, delighting in their pain and banishment to hell and for this reason, we must find her guilty.
• 1:26:33
  [SPEAKER_08]: In the defense, we must find Satan and not guilty by reason of self-defense and catappreciation.
• 1:26:39
  [SPEAKER_08]: or Ms. Helstrom just wants to go home.
• 1:26:42
  [SPEAKER_08]: She's been banished from hell and all she wants to do is get back.
• 1:26:45
  [SPEAKER_08]: Furthermore, while she does feel feet on souls of men, it is later explained that she uses men like slur piece in order to survive.
• 1:26:53
  [SPEAKER_08]: She has to do it and does it.
• 1:26:55
  [SPEAKER_08]: in self-defense.
• 1:26:56
  [SPEAKER_08]: She chooses her human job of juices carefully, devouring bad people who want to hurt her and her delightful Satanist companions.
• 1:27:04
  [SPEAKER_08]: Seriously, she looks after the people she likes.
• 1:27:06
  [SPEAKER_08]: Michael Heron, Bruce Cummins, Gloria Helford, she protects them and punishes those with harm her and her companions, especially looking after the women in her life.
• 1:27:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: Finally, the bad guys killed her amazing black cat exitor.
• 1:27:20
  [SPEAKER_08]: And by the power of John Wick, we know that she is not responsible for anything that comes after.
• 1:27:25
  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
• 1:27:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Excellent, excellent.
• 1:27:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's so fun to have you delve into these comics.
• 1:27:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to share some thoughts on 70s horror comics?
• 1:27:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I know you spoke a little earlier about it, but reading these satanist stories and these like dark gloomy sexy wood lady in the background, it's their fun.
• 1:27:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoyed them.
• 1:27:40
  [SPEAKER_08]: They really are, because again, I think about the historical precedent.
• 1:27:44
  [SPEAKER_08]: You think about the comics code and how in some ways these were a rebellion, the comics code was loosening in the 70s and also by doing them in black and white.
• 1:27:53
  [SPEAKER_08]: And these text-based stories, it was a way of circumventing the comics code authority seal and delving into these topics around.
• 1:28:01
  [SPEAKER_08]: hell and dark and light, which technically, you know, they shouldn't be doing under the comics code.
• 1:28:05
  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's really digging into them.
• 1:28:07
  [SPEAKER_08]: Initially, I was kind of frustrated because I was like, oh, this is so heteronormative.
• 1:28:11
  [SPEAKER_08]: She only, which she kisses the men and sucks out their souls.
• 1:28:15
  [SPEAKER_08]: She should suck out everyone's souls.
• 1:28:16
  [SPEAKER_08]: But then I was thinking about it more and I was like, maybe it's really a celebration of staffic love.
• 1:28:21
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like the relationship between the men and the women is sort of toxic and dangerous, but she has these relationships for women which seem to be very fulfilling.
• 1:28:30
  [SPEAKER_08]: So I was like, I was thinking about oppositional readings, you know, and how we could also read it as celebrating a different kind of relationship.
• 1:28:37
  [SPEAKER_08]: So anyway, lots of interesting thoughts as I revisited these comics.
• 1:28:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what I love hearing your thoughts.
• 1:28:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.
• 1:28:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: What questions do we have from the jury on this section?
• 1:28:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Questions or comments?
• 1:28:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: No questions.
• 1:28:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's innocent.
• 1:28:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think I think it could be argued that she's innocent because she's evil, right?
• 1:28:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like zero or is it a five?
• 1:28:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Because as she's a character that I think would be fine with the five, but it defends on how we decide to like my cat.
• 1:29:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
• 1:29:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I like the story where she's hunting down the floor.
• 1:29:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's really, really entertaining.
• 1:29:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And her supporting cast, although small and not often used, we're really fun.
• 1:29:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I was very generous with Damon.
• 1:29:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have to give her her too as well.
• 1:29:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's, think a lot of this was just a fun.
• 1:29:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: They heard her cat.
• 1:29:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm going to go with one.
• 1:29:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: She does remind me straight up with my cats.
• 1:29:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if I don't get mad at them for killing mice, then I guess I can't get mad at her for feasting on humans.
• 1:29:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana, it is a five for me as far as I love you for being an evil crazy gait lady, but for the purpose of, like, are you guilty?
• 1:29:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a one.
• 1:29:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think you did much wrong here.
• 1:29:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if there's murder, it's a three.
• 1:29:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm gonna have my mum three.
• 1:29:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: She kills a whole bunch of people, but God is at glorious.
• 1:29:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go mad at an Allison.
• 1:29:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna say a two, either murder is bad, but we gave, you know, attempted murder like, you know, around there and Nazis were forced.
• 1:30:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like two's fine.
• 1:30:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And she has to eat to live and a lot of those guys sucked and they tried to hurt her cat.
• 1:30:06
  [SPEAKER_07]: I will say a one again has to eat to live and if anything happened to my cat, I would hope I would be cleared of all crimes.
• 1:30:13
  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I cannot believe the cat that's what's up.
• 1:30:17
  [SPEAKER_08]: resonated with with everyone.
• 1:30:20
  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
• 1:30:21
  [SPEAKER_08]: I was with you chat.
• 1:30:22
  [SPEAKER_08]: I was like, is it a one or five, right?
• 1:30:24
  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, and I'm going to go with a three.
• 1:30:26
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to split the difference.
• 1:30:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really funny to me where we go on this show.
• 1:30:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like we're like, he threw an elephant.
• 1:30:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a five, but then just like a hundred people were like, no, we get it.
• 1:30:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: We understand.
• 1:30:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: That gives us a 12 out of 30 in that section and that takes us to our final trial point.
• 1:30:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Trial Point 2 for Satana called the body orchard.
• 1:30:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is house from number 12 and number 20.
• 1:30:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Legion of Monsters number 1, Deadpool team up 892 and Sarah, I am personally sorry for making you read that particular issue.
• 1:30:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Girl comics number 3 slash 5.
• 1:30:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: We didn't jump into Thunderbolts at all, but please go read the Jeff Parker Thunderbolts run.
• 1:31:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really love it.
• 1:31:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: The assigned jury member here obviously is Sarah Century.
• 1:31:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: After being restored to life, Satana started thinking much bigger.
• 1:31:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: She developed the body orchard, de-consecrated church, where she tortured humans in elaborate and artistic ways, casting spells that would keep the humans regenerating as she consistently fed on their energy.
• 1:31:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: She killed more men with kisses, and when detective Gunnion came into kill her, wanting revenge for Damon Hellstrom reasons,
• 1:31:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana branded him with a symbol and supplied him with a box of bullets that contained her bodily fluids.
• 1:31:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: She then sent him forward to commit mass murder in her name so that she could get increasing power in which she might take over hell itself.
• 1:31:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a worn out story.
• 1:31:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: It never really plays out, but wow, is that a wild journey.
• 1:31:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana continued feasting on men, including one named Jason Silence, and his twin Jennifer Silence wanted revenge.
• 1:31:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: So she got a spell book called The
• 1:31:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and learn how to track Satanna with an electric pentagram.
• 1:32:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satanna bartered with Jennifer promising to bring Jason back to life, while in hell retrieving Jason's soul, Satanna killed the demonic scorpion queen, and then returned Jason to life which freed her from the pentagram, but then she killed Jason immediately again, and added Jennifer to the body orchard.
• 1:32:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana was later swindled out of her soul by five nerds in a casino, but actually they were helllords posing as nerds, and they all wanted to marry Satana to push their own power forward.
• 1:32:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Satana instead married Deadpool, uh huh, you heard that right, and then sent him with hellfire swords to kill Asmodius, which gave her soul back to her, and this is another one that you're like, oh okay, this is hard to read.
• 1:32:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: She and Deadpool apparently never consumated the marriage,
• 1:32:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: and it is one of the most offensively cheese cake books you've ever seen at a time when comics needed to know better.
• 1:32:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk about it later, Satana fed on another man and a teenage boy who wanted to lose his virginity to her.
• 1:33:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me turn it over to Sarah.
• 1:33:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a great place to play Anton.
• 1:33:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was going to say that despite my extensive legal expertise, I'm not appearing here as a lawyer, but rather in my capacity as a lesbian as a lesbian.
• 1:33:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can defend a bad bitch, but I can't prosecute one, right?
• 1:33:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like some laws are a little bit more ancient than man's laws.
• 1:33:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
• 1:33:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: These are disconnected stories.
• 1:33:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've got like the warning.
• 1:33:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody looks great in the health-strong series.
• 1:33:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, yeah, she doesn't look great in here.
• 1:33:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she looks amazing, I'll say.
• 1:33:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she starts this thing called the body orchard, which I guess you could you could put on trial for being two hellares or I guess.
• 1:33:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that was like a early 90s vibe.
• 1:33:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's very like, I mean, five minutes ago, like I was in Chicago watching hellares or bloodline this morning and
• 1:33:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that maybe the crossover was pretty extreme like there's a body like a bunch of bodies that are like kind of all like twisting it's very like clip Barker and you've got like You know, they're they continue to feed her over time which I'm glad that she's planning meals.
• 1:34:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I started planning.
• 1:34:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did I do meal prep and it's actually going to real life saver.
• 1:34:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, she, in that series, she, that guy, you know, he comes in and is like calling her some pretty unkind names, I would say, and then she does this thing where she's like, well, I put my body fluid in these bullets so that now I don't even have to kiss men, that's big deal them or whatever.
• 1:34:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what's happening with that plan, so yeah, you can throw the book at her for that.
• 1:34:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really not sure what she's even doing, like she just has like a vague mass murder.
• 1:34:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's like throw some more bodies into my body orchard.
• 1:34:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 1:34:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't go anywhere, so it's kind of to me just reads as hijinks, which is how most of these go.
• 1:34:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, to me, it reads more as hijinks, just because there's never really that much follow through.
• 1:34:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, oh well, she's here being kind of rim bunches evil, right?
• 1:34:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, the other thing was like the god is she has that one shot with the Jennifer and Jason silence that's their last name.
• 1:35:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, and it's like the Jennifer is like, Jennifer should be on trial for flirting.
• 1:35:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like because this whole comic was just them flirting, I think.
• 1:35:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then like the brother comes back and she's like, I didn't even go like, she just tricks her.
• 1:35:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, she's like, well, I brought your brother back, but look, he died again.
• 1:35:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
• 1:35:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and then pops them all into the body or turt or whatever.
• 1:35:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like where she's tossing everybody during this time period.
• 1:35:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like so that's of a of a theme at least, but then it goes into the Deadpool story, which is honestly, Narlie.
• 1:35:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a Narlie story.
• 1:35:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very like...
• 1:35:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got lots of questions.
• 1:35:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's just flirting with her, like so constantly the whole time that her whole mistake is just to be unimpressed and to be kind of like, oh, I'm getting out of here.
• 1:35:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, or whatever.
• 1:35:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it just it feels uncomfortable.
• 1:35:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't really have a lot to do in that story other than to be kind of like the for lack of a better term straight man.
• 1:36:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess in the in the comedy that is very much at her expense, I would say.
• 1:36:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't like that story at all.
• 1:36:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Did she do anything wrong during that story?
• 1:36:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean those guys sucked and they got they just didn't get to marry her She didn't do anything wrong in that story.
• 1:36:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: That story definitely wronged her though And then the one by set like hell, you suit the Connie She's like eating a butterfly at the beginning which like butterflies are having a hard time So and we can put her on trial maybe for that
• 1:36:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: She has like a sexy tarot shop.
• 1:36:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've never heard of the like in a Santana story ever before.
• 1:36:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then she tries to make out with one of the kids from that 70s show I guess.
• 1:36:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is just like the story is like her being like, whatever, I've already doomed, which is running theme with her right to be like, well, I'm already damned or whatever.
• 1:36:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So she could be put on trial perhaps for being a bit overly dramatic.
• 1:36:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course like the age stuff, I don't know what's going on in that story.
• 1:37:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's another one where you're just kind of like,
• 1:37:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: What did this have to be here for?
• 1:37:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't match so much like most of her appearances.
• 1:37:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of like crosses a line that I would have preferred to have not had crossed, I guess.
• 1:37:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, it's one of those things where it's like, well, here she is, and now she's gone, you know, so I don't know how seriously to take it.
• 1:37:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's about it.
• 1:37:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's hard for me to, I guess.
• 1:37:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: to spend the body orchard.
• 1:37:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess one could consider that to be somewhat damning.
• 1:37:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It looks cool.
• 1:37:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the 90s.
• 1:37:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: I know people who would take his money for that shit.
• 1:37:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
• 1:37:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a clay barker thing.
• 1:37:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, we have such sites to show you.
• 1:37:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah, would you show everyone your
• 1:37:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I just think that that's like a really personal question.
• 1:37:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like a girl you even got a fur journal like there's just so much.
• 1:37:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like, I don't know.
• 1:38:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, yeah, she strikes me as a lesbian for sure.
• 1:38:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because she has a fur journal.
• 1:38:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: do any questions or comments in this section from our friends.
• 1:38:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: The body orchard is a lot.
• 1:38:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Good luck.
• 1:38:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good luck asking your question about any of us.
• 1:38:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Chad, I will just say as a sidebar, making somebody read Deadpool team up as sick.
• 1:38:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was a sick move my friend and it's like they're trying to date the lesbian or whatever It's really gross.
• 1:38:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't like that comment get all it's it's a wrong but I sometimes I think it's important to shed light on those things But yes, I should be prosecuted for making you read that it
• 1:38:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: For me, I mean, she kills some people who asked to be killed.
• 1:38:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I kind of want to assume that the people at the body were chured are not innocent victims, but like people who want to be there.
• 1:38:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's like a sexy, kinky sex club they all want it.
• 1:38:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of my vibe.
• 1:39:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna land back on three again, which is crazy to me, because I think this character is very evil, but I love her.
• 1:39:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say three, I kind of feel like I want to say four, but again, we gave not to get some four.
• 1:39:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So three, the kid stuff is really the, you know, she doesn't do anything more than kiss though.
• 1:39:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
• 1:39:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, three.
• 1:39:20
  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I'm going to go five because I was like box and bullets was body fluid mass murder.
• 1:39:26
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd like, I'm like, whoa, yeah, I'm going with a five.
• 1:39:28
  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to go with a two because who hasn't done a little bit of mass murder?
• 1:39:34
  [SPEAKER_07]: And honestly, I think the body orchard is a really good scientific tool.
• 1:39:41
  [SPEAKER_07]: You know those fields where they put a bunch of bodies to see how they compose and different things?
• 1:39:45
  [SPEAKER_07]: I think honestly she's doing us a service.
• 1:39:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I went back and forth between a three and a four.
• 1:39:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I have to downgraded to a three because she was the victim of a war and being in a war in Alice comic.
• 1:39:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that explains some actions.
• 1:40:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: The bodily food bullets not great.
• 1:40:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: The corpse yard, like you said, it's probably not great people.
• 1:40:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: This whole trial has been insane with some of these things.
• 1:40:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: She keeps them alive in the orchard.
• 1:40:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: She tortures them, he keeps them alive.
• 1:40:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: She like preserves so she can feed on them later.
• 1:40:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's very efficient like this.
• 1:40:19
  [SPEAKER_07]: She's not killing them.
• 1:40:20
  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not the better.
• 1:40:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, in that case, I got to upgrade a back tool for because that takes it back off.
• 1:40:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, I know why you're all struggling.
• 1:40:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know why this is a hard one because literally it feels like every time she appeared and every single different thing I was just talking about is a pretty different character at very different extremes.
• 1:40:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of hard to pass a blanket judgment, I guess, because all of these things are so bonkers and kind of just like to what end, to what end is she doing any of these things?
• 1:40:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really understand it.
• 1:40:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you were going to say, oh, well, where is she the most evil?
• 1:40:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is probably in this section.
• 1:41:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't remember.
• 1:41:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I gave her like a two last time.
• 1:41:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 1:41:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: She does kind of like kiss a teen.
• 1:41:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not chill.
• 1:41:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the mass murder is not great.
• 1:41:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but then it's once again, I have no idea to what in this occurred or why it happened.
• 1:41:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, she shows up again later.
• 1:41:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And none of this will ever be mentioned again.
• 1:41:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 1:41:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, how does one judge say Tana other than to be like, well, you'll be different next time I see you slightly at least.
• 1:41:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go maybe for where I guess, you know, I love this character, but these are pretty disconnected stories.
• 1:41:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: These are kind of like her worst, I guess, where people don't seem to totally know what they're doing with her other than like a Julia from Halleraser riff basically.
• 1:41:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that gives us a 23 in that section.
• 1:41:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: 33 total at a 60 possible points, which gives us a 55% on the scale.
• 1:41:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: These are interesting characters, because they're purely evil, but it's the balance of the human side that makes them really interesting.
• 1:41:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's the whole point of these characters in a lot of ways.
• 1:41:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: How we feel as we vibe out at the end of this trial.
• 1:42:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like them to hang out and like get some of their stuff resolved and I would like it if people writing them going forward would be more consistent and maybe a little bit more interesting than like once again I like the health strong series to but it is such a vibe but it's also.
• 1:42:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: to me way too derivative of like any other body or that was happening during like the early 90s.
• 1:42:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's so much of it where I feel like anything that we really had to establish through Damon kind of waivers and then of course, oh, bring Jane Cutterback.
• 1:42:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say that definitively.
• 1:42:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's good for me.
• 1:42:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
• 1:42:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:42:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's great.
• 1:42:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody loves her.
• 1:42:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like anybody who read this series, which isn't maybe a ton of people always brings up Jane.
• 1:42:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's like a fan favorite
• 1:42:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't treat her too good.
• 1:42:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't treat anybody too good.
• 1:42:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, but I like him to like maybe continue to be just like is sensitive and kind of obnoxious and self righteous, but maybe have a little self reflection every now and again, and maybe both of them could just kind of tone it down because I feel like they're at an 11 every time I see them.
• 1:43:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's on it that they're not together more often and that's if we're asking like what story do we need from these characters it might be fun to see them as like the central you know protagonist of like a big epic fucking hell story like that would be fun is really well done right like that's the key we need a definitive story that makes them more than a bit character.
• 1:43:27
  [SPEAKER_08]: those interactions with the two of them are really interesting to me when they when you know what she's angry with him but she saves him and I think that's sibling dynamic and the their different upbringings it brings up a lot of interesting issues that I would love to see explored in more depth.
• 1:43:43
  [SPEAKER_08]: I would like to have like I like to have her kick off her fur boots and sit down for some counseling with her brother and kind of work through some things but I
• 1:43:51
  [SPEAKER_08]: I do think it's kind of electric when they're together and I would really love to see that.
• 1:43:54
  [SPEAKER_08]: I would also really love to see Satana have like an extended relationship because they hint at it in many ways.
• 1:44:00
  [SPEAKER_08]: Like she'll kiss someone or roommate in the sequence.
• 1:44:04
  [SPEAKER_08]: She gets very close to her roommates in the sequence that I was looking at and I would like to see what that looks like for her.
• 1:44:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: People are fond of these characters.
• 1:44:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: When I bring up, I'm doing the trial of son of Satan and saying to people like, Oh my god, yay!
• 1:44:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if people know why.
• 1:44:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just that they're sexy.
• 1:44:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: They're sexy redheads.
• 1:44:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm fudging necklines and lots of body parts that are almost exposed.
• 1:44:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's
• 1:44:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: As far as the trial goes, I am glad that Sotana was found less guilty than Damon.
• 1:44:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that they both are in a really similar range.
• 1:44:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's weird for characters that are like, I think, in many ways, purely evil sometimes and purely good for Damon's case, others.
• 1:44:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I don't have a lot of affection for Damon, but reading these and talking about them, it was really fun, and maybe I'll read more.
• 1:44:52
  [SPEAKER_07]: I definitely think this gave me another cornerstone to search as I delve into a rather new comic book interest.
• 1:45:01
  [SPEAKER_07]: I can't believe it's going to get crazier.
• 1:45:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I come at it from sort of the other angle where I'm much more of a demon health stream person.
• 1:45:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a ton of person, but revisiting both of them together was interesting to see their interactions and all that play out.
• 1:45:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say they're probably at their most evil in the 21st century and I don't know if that is because of the relative decline of horror comics and there's just less nuance with some of the writing and I would really love to see a particular writer.
• 1:45:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: pick up these characters and run with them in the way that for example in the past couple years we've seen writers like Ben Percy on Ghost Rider or Jason Low on where off by night I think you need a particular kind of writer who has interested a little deeper into the horror aspect than just oh son of Satan he's spooky and evil you need someone with a little more interest
• 1:45:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: We we've seen a recent magic series that does into these kinds of things.
• 1:46:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think the balance and all this is really interesting But I would love to see like a hell take over like incredible intriguing almost political like these two facing off against each other But just also just having hijinks and fun that would be really fun for me So hang up and go watch Rosemary's baby everybody if you want that was my that'd be my room
• 1:46:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I'm a fisto.
• 1:46:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'd even join a first body if you want that journey in the the 90s, which is a a certain version of all of this Super grateful to all of you as we are wrapping up.
• 1:46:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love for you to share any final thoughts Working people find you online anything you want to plug We're November in the show.
• 1:46:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're gonna get a little bit serious, but very academic So my theme on the show moving forward is going to dictate all of the patreon characters that we're doing
• 1:46:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So November, we're doing the trial of Baron Helmetzebo, leaning hard into conversations around fascism and pop culture, which includes genres like sci-fi and comedy.
• 1:46:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to open the show, however, with the script reading of X-Men 99.
• 1:46:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's delightful.
• 1:46:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Followed up by an interview with Stephen Roman, who is the writer of the Chaos Engine trilogy.
• 1:47:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: which is like the red skull gets the cosmic cube and conquerors the Earth and the X and then have to save the day.
• 1:47:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: Really fun, interview, and wild stories about Marvel in that really 2000s.
• 1:47:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: So be prepared.
• 1:47:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're gonna jump in full on the deep end over on the Patreon as well.
• 1:47:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Molly Laser and Dr. Phillips Smith join me for our opening episode in November, which is the hate manga, the clone of Adolf Hitler who exists in the Marvel universe.
• 1:47:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we're just going right into the deep end.
• 1:47:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: I always announce the next three trials at the end of this, so in November, the trial of Helmet Zemo in December, we get to do a large academic panel about the watcher and the theme will be eyeball horror all month on the show, which is delightful, and then January, one of my all-time favorite characters, the trial of Kurt Wagner, Nightcrawler, so be prepared for that.
• 1:47:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: You can follow the show at Remalkin' Under Score Lane on Instagram, most prominently, and just thank you everybody for the ongoing support in this very crazy intense world.
• 1:47:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: good and evil and the way we define them remains a fascinating thing for my brain anytime and every time.
• 1:48:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for having me Chad.
• 1:48:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: As I mentioned, Damon Hellstrom was a particular favorite.
• 1:48:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is an insane journey from the crazy material in the 70s to turning into any stuffed rabbit to torture his ex wife.
• 1:48:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like him for that.
• 1:48:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me clarify.
• 1:48:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where can you find me?
• 1:48:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Most social media platforms has just got free.
• 1:48:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm my own podcast.
• 1:48:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Completely different topic, clone conspiracy.
• 1:48:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I talk about Ben Riley and try to explain what's going on with the clone saga.
• 1:48:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you figure out what's going on with the clone saga, you let me know.
• 1:48:33
  [SPEAKER_08]: thanks so much for having me.
• 1:48:34
  [SPEAKER_08]: I love the Halloween episode and it's been so much fun taking a deep dive into these characters.
• 1:48:39
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm again Susan, I'm not on social media but you can find me at Portland State.
• 1:48:43
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'll be heading out.
• 1:48:45
  [SPEAKER_08]: I've been inspired to try and find some faux fur boots to, you know, up my look.
• 1:48:49
  [SPEAKER_08]: So thanks.
• 1:48:50
  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm inspired.
• 1:48:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: You can make your own in the make a faux fur journal with the remnants.
• 1:48:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go Allison Matt and then Sarah.
• 1:48:59
  [SPEAKER_07]: You can find both Matt and I at Escape the Motivers on Instagram and you can listen to our podcast that comes out twice weekly, where we go over X-Men and on the 29th we have a combined interview with the X-Wife podcast.
• 1:49:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: We also have our interview with Saladina Matt today on Friday.
• 1:49:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's happy.
• 1:49:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much for having us.
• 1:49:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just really fun.
• 1:49:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I live both Damon and St. Hannah.
• 1:49:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think they are so fun and so catty to each other.
• 1:49:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I mostly want them just to embrace their old fashion.
• 1:49:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: She mostly has stayed with that.
• 1:49:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes Damon shows up with his head shaved in a little soul patch and like no shirt and he's like way too skinny and like has he's like leather pants or whatever.
• 1:49:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of that can go, I think.
• 1:49:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you might know me from go listen to my podcast.
• 1:49:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a comic podcast like many people.
• 1:49:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: This podcast do called Best Issue Ever where people just tell me about one of their very favorite issues.
• 1:49:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, probably one of the most important things to plug right now would be the fact that I am a horror writer.
• 1:50:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I have a book out that is called a small light and other stories, which has a
• 1:50:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you like Santana, I think you might like it.
• 1:50:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also, of course, did the Zene about lesbian vampires.
• 1:50:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is really long and all of the covers are hand drawn.
• 1:50:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it talks, it breaks up down lesbian vampires into ten essential themes that I think that all of the lesbian vampire stories that I've read fall into.
• 1:50:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was really fun to write, honestly, and it sells all of the time.
• 1:50:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: My Zine's selling a lot.
• 1:50:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I love it when people buy them as it helps me pay my bills.
• 1:50:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then also, it helps me make more Zine's.
• 1:50:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a couple more that are coming out very soon.
• 1:50:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for now, you can go buy the Lesbian Vampire one.
• 1:50:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you enjoyed what we were talking about today, because Satan is kind of a Lesbian Vampire, too.
• 1:50:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I also do a comic with Alex Sigura, and also Chad, you write parts of it.
• 1:50:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do the character profiles for us, which are great.
• 1:51:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love it stuff.
• 1:51:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a lesbian vampire villain in that too.
• 1:51:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you just got finished writing the right up for that character.
• 1:51:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: If people want to follow the forgotten five, check out patreon.com slash the forgotten five.
• 1:51:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I highly recommend it.
• 1:51:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: We love doing it.
• 1:51:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It has 11 rockets influence, Claire my X-Men, Wezi X-Factor.
• 1:51:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bunch of stuff thrown in there, uh, Legion of Superheroes.
• 1:51:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, of the 80s, basically, and we just want to kind of keep it going for a long whole time.
• 1:51:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's very helpful when people subscribe to it.
• 1:51:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: and the artists are all great, uh, Priusix and it does editing.
• 1:51:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a dream team, so it's been really lovely to work on that topic, that I always forget.
• 1:51:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
• 1:51:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: I just had preahon and we talked all about warrior woman in masterman.
• 1:51:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a it was a delightful time.
• 1:51:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, preahon.
• 1:51:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, everybody.
• 1:51:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.
• 1:51:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: I had a delightful time today.
• 1:51:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: These always just are a huge battery recharges.
• 1:51:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll see you back here next week on another Grimalkin Lane show.
• 1:52:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And now stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism as a special guest and I talked about a red skull story
• 1:52:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: In Hitler's Germany, women were told their place was in the home, and echoing drumbeat of Kinder Kuka Kierke, which means children, kitchen, church.
• 1:52:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: The regime glorified motherhood rewarded women with medals for bearing many children and barred them for most professional and political life.
• 1:52:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yet beneath all the propaganda, lay the much darker hypocrisy because at the very lowest level in concentration camps, women endured brutal conditions forced labor, sexual assault, medical experimentation, and the constant threat of sexual violence on top of all of that.
• 1:52:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Even female guards, who were often drawn from poor or desperate backgrounds, became cogs in the machinery of cruelty, both victims and perpetrators within the system.
• 1:52:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Nazi vision of women's roles was rigid, but the war created cracks that revealed women's resilience in unexpected ways.
• 1:53:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: For example, inside the concentration camps, women often developed networks of quiet solidarity, sharing scraps of food, or secret information that could mean the difference between life and death as they chose who they could and would
• 1:53:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Their suffering was compounded by particular humiliation that the regime reserved for them yet survival sometimes depended on bonds of whispered resistance.
• 1:53:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, outside the barbed wire, women were not only passive victims of fascism but also active participants in political justice movements on both sides.
• 1:53:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: In occupied territories and underground networks, women risk everything to smuggle messages, hide fugitives, or serve as couriers, roles the Nazis often overlook precisely because of their own sexist assumptions that women weren't capable.
• 1:53:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: This oversight ironically ended up becoming a weapon.
• 1:53:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: As spies and operatives women could pass through checkpoints with baskets of food or children in tow, while concealing coded letters, weapons, and supplies, many resistance networks from Francis Mach Machi to Polish underground cells relied heavily on female operatives to carry out missions that men could not.
• 1:54:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: The Nazis blinded the possibility that women could be so politically dangerous often failed to suspect them until it was too late.
• 1:54:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: The same society that claimed women belonged only in the private sphere had created conditions
• 1:54:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to give you two quick anecdotes that are real from history about Sophie Shoal and Magda Goarbills.
• 1:54:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: They stood on the opposite ends of the same historical storm, their lives illustrating the stark choices available in Nazi Germany.
• 1:54:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sophie Shoal, for example, was a university student in Munich, quiet and bookish, who was slowly awakened to the brutality around her as the Nazis took power.
• 1:54:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: When her brother Hans introduced her to the white rose, which was an opposition movement, she joined in distributing leaflets that condemned Hitler's war and the inhumanity of the camps that people were learning about.
• 1:54:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: In 1943, toward the end of the war, Sophie was arrested after scattering leaflets in her university courtyard interrogated and quickly executed by Guiatin at the age of 21.
• 1:55:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her last recorded words, defiant and unshaken still echo as a moral compass, what does my death matter if through us thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?
• 1:55:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Magda Gervils by contrast became one of the regime's most visible symbols of loyalty.
• 1:55:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Married to Joseph Gervils, Hitler's propaganda minister, she embodied the Nazi ideal of womanhood, mother, wife, national devotee.
• 1:55:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hitler himself was the godfather to one of her six children,
• 1:55:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: physician mocked a devoted hers to preserving the myth of the Reich.
• 1:55:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Her tragedy came at the end of the war in the claustrophobic Fuera bunker where she and Joseph poisoned all of their own children before taking their own lives.
• 1:55:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: She left behind a handwritten note declaring that the life of National Socialism was not worth living, the chilling devotion to a collapsing ideology.
• 1:55:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: All right now we're going to jump to the world of Captain America.
• 1:55:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's an American 395, in his private hideaway and the Rocky Mountains after he has faked his death, the Red Skull is smoking in his hot tub in his swimsuit while greeting Viper, Madam Hydra, who is demanded to know what he wants.
• 1:56:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: No one does nothing for nothing, she says, what is it you want of me?
• 1:56:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I warn you that the Viper is no man subordinate, no one directs my activities, no one controls me, and he replies, I simply wish to finance you and what's ever subversive activity your
• 1:56:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: You have a genius for subversion, even as do I.
• 1:56:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right now I have my fingers, and at over a dozen different pies, I hate that phrase, my fingers in pies.
• 1:56:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: The rolling of variety of criminal and anarchistic ventures.
• 1:56:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: The one thing they all have in common is that they contribute to the deterioration of the decadent society in which we live.
• 1:56:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: But no one network is doing anything exciting.
• 1:56:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: I want new blood, someone with imagination and gusto.
• 1:56:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Does that not sound like you?
• 1:56:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Come join me in my call, Dr. and my dear.
• 1:56:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: and let's just brainstorm new evils together.
• 1:56:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: So Viper takes off all her clothes and joins Red Skull in the hot tub while his girlfriend mother night watches nearby dressed like a nun feeling betrayed by her Nazi boyfriend.
• 1:57:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Jumping to the next issue Viper says so.
• 1:57:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: how much financial assistance are we talking about skull?
• 1:57:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: The depth of your pockets will determine the scale of my planning.
• 1:57:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: But Arnamsola calls into report that the skull house, the mansion has been turned into a doll house so that it can be transported to the Rocky Mountains.
• 1:57:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Arnamsola is real fucking weird, you guys.
• 1:57:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Jump to the next issue.
• 1:57:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: The red skull is dressed in a suit he's sitting on a couch with Viper, watching Captain America fight new recruits outside.
• 1:57:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: He wants to add some
• 1:57:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, Jackalantern and Blackwing are out there, he's busting mother night around and he's using verbal aggression despite her devoted loyalty to him.
• 1:57:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Vipers says, We're used to try to treat me like you do her.
• 1:57:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: I would not tolerate it even for a moment, and he said, I would never dream of treating a terrorist of your accomplishments as I do that's subservient wench.
• 1:57:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Mother Nightcliffe's for such abuse from me, later Red Skull takes Viper into his quote, Recreation Room, Iraq, a coffin full of spikes, gas, chairs with straps.
• 1:58:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I see you enjoy watching others suffer, says Viper.
• 1:58:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Pain can be a spectator sport, but I prefer to participate.
• 1:58:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I believe that you cannot truly become proficient at inflicting pain without knowing how to endure it, so he strips off his shirt, straps himself into what he causes wheel of sorrow.
• 1:58:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: The guys, this is a real scene, an ingenious device for inflicting discomfort by means of strategically placed retractable needles and electrical current.
• 1:58:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me demonstrate, if you would, please pour down that lever to an appropriate level.
• 1:58:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have endured level 4 for up to 30 minutes,
• 1:58:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: To pay a phrase to my country, Manisha, what doesn't break me only makes me stronger, so Viper immediately dials up to level 5, he starts screaming, and while he's doing that, Mother Night gets arrested by Captain America.
• 1:58:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Jump forward a little more, cut throat, jack-a-lantern, and black-wing are all brought into the skeleton crew, and when Red School learns Mother Night was arrested, he beats her, and she begs to be beat to death.
• 1:59:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Please, Johan, I cannot live with you so, so displeased with me, I beg you beat me some more, beat me to death, I deserve it, I'm a failure, you don't need me anymore, you have the Viper, put me out of my misery and he says, you'd like that wouldn't you, but to cure you now would rob me of all the pleasure I would have of abusing you in years to come, I will not succumb to the temptation.
• 1:59:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: No one wants to disappointments you out to me, and that all the abuse I keep upon you are worthless person you richly deserve.
• 1:59:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to job a little forward to cap 407, where Crossbones comes back to the Red Skull with a brainwashed diamond back, and a vial of Captain America's blood, because he's trying to get his job back.
• 1:59:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: In 409, Red Skull, in a green bathrobe, learns that Crossbones has killed cut throat in self-defense.
• 1:59:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Later, he's in a green suit, and he holds a meeting.
• 1:59:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Mother Night is a little late.
• 1:59:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: The next time you are late mother, I will have a crock face tattooed on your tongue and finally in 410, Diamondback ends up getting shot or hurt and so she gets the super soldier serum herself during a big rescue from Captain America at the Falcon.
• 2:00:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Jumping into a crazy world of Captain America with me is my dear friend, Mariah Daley.
• 2:00:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Mariah, hello, are you a red skull fan, my friend?
• 2:00:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for having me, Chad, red skull, I don't know, I think because we have never put a voice to it here and you put a voice to the character now, you know, using my own new attitude that I'm like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 2:00:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Before we started recording everyone, Moray was said, and he asked me not to say anything publicly, but this wheel of this little sexy torture wheel, he told me he has one in his own bedroom, and he asked if that's why I had him on this particular episode.
• 2:00:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: You have a wheel of power, Moray.
• 2:00:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm teasing, obviously.
• 2:00:44
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm as kinky as red skull.
• 2:00:50
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think I have to raise too much him because the way he's having ladies and I was controlling it since almost unrealistic and hypnotic I like how are you getting all this?
• 2:01:03
  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I guess it has the money, those are what it's all I guess.
• 2:01:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is I mean, we got to start there because this is a wild story.
• 2:01:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's torture porn between Madame Hydra and the Red Skull.
• 2:01:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: She straps him to a wheel and gets crazy to them.
• 2:01:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:17
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:18
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:18
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:19
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:19
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
• 2:01:20
  [SPEAKER_06]: I love.
• 2:01:21
  [SPEAKER_06]: I love every issue of this so much.
• 2:01:24
  [SPEAKER_06]: What's the red skull part?
• 2:01:25
  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't put it but I asked them to do a red skull.
• 2:01:26
  [SPEAKER_06]: I loved every single part.
• 2:01:28
  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I found myself like, you know, on stove up my screen just enjoyed every bit of it.
• 2:01:34
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's it's.
• 2:01:35
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's lunacy and it's big skill, you know, where you have this big plot dice, you know, on folding over several issues.
• 2:01:43
  [SPEAKER_06]: And at the same time, it's also very micro, you know, where you see, you know, how the micro detail between the characters, you know, like how, you know, helps your friend, he's also the ex girlfriend of one of red skulls,
• 2:02:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Diamond back in her origins everybody is the little sister her name's Rachel Layton and her older brother Daniel Layton becomes the character cut throat who's not a super common character and then she has like an abusive boyfriend named crossbones so there's a whole bunch of like soap opera drama in the middle of all this is a day walker next month red skull yeah so it's it's that's a girl friends brother and ex boyfriend work for his arch nemesis like it's it's delicious
• 2:02:30
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and the story itself, I see it as a documentary story because the story focuses on Cape America as the end of Avengers, you know, you see how it leads the same, you see how we direct people and everything and you don't like the captional we say, you know, for demo
• 2:02:48
  [SPEAKER_06]: But you see Red Skull at the other end of things, having his own basically reverse Avengers, you know, where it does the same thing.
• 2:02:55
  [SPEAKER_06]: It tells them what to do and everything.
• 2:02:56
  [SPEAKER_06]: You see how, you know, Captain America has all this trust and favor of his people before Red Skull, it is fear, it is fear and,
• 2:03:06
  [SPEAKER_06]: abuse, you know, while you see where people look up to South America, they are rewarded with this attention, you know, when people look up to red school, they are rewarded with abuse and, you know, because you see a particular line like, you know, that it sees more than night as you've made yourself vulnerable and because you made yourself vulnerable, I would take advantage of that vulnerability and and use that vulnerability to abuse you.
• 2:03:31
  [SPEAKER_06]: You see that, it is a couple of cuts on cuts, respecting women, seeing how it treats another woman.
• 2:03:37
  [SPEAKER_06]: But for one, that makes themselves completely vulnerable to him, completely submissive to him.
• 2:03:45
  [SPEAKER_06]: He abuses that and you know.
• 2:03:48
  [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, that's what I mean.
• 2:03:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: So let's talk about Mother Night for a moment and I'll get silly and then I'll get serious when we talk about this character.
• 2:03:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: This character has an odd history in comics.
• 2:03:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Go look her up.
• 2:03:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're not going to go deep into it, but this isn't the red skulls subservient girlfriend who he beats up all the time.
• 2:04:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's telepathic.
• 2:04:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: She's fully capable of kicking his ass if she chose to.
• 2:04:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: But also, she dresses like a nun and he calls her mother.
• 2:04:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she could have, you know, who said nice, they could say that it's mother.
• 2:04:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: And he's completely or represents just a beautiful story.
• 2:04:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and in previous stories, he has, he has a habit of finding wholesome innocent women and raping them or killing them.
• 2:04:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's part of his history.
• 2:04:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: But he also has a daughter that he artificially ages up and he dresses her like a nun and calls her mother superior.
• 2:04:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's a, there's a weird relationship between this man and nuns
• 2:04:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: I all sighed away by the way, for people at that of a bloody car that it's not just it's not it's a sexy none, you know Yeah, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex,
• 2:05:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: But the other piece in the more serious part is I grew up in a home with domestic violence with an abusive stepfather and my mom was the victim of violence and watching that portrayed on the page so callously is a little bit rough.
• 2:05:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: I really struggle any time we're watching a man go use violence against a woman.
• 2:05:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, clearly we're showing the red skull is a bad guy.
• 2:05:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: And mother nights on her little character journey, right?
• 2:05:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Cause the part I didn't cover is cut throat is flirting with her.
• 2:05:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he, he's, he's like, oh, you're so sexy.
• 2:05:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: You're so wholesome.
• 2:05:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's fool around behind the bosses back.
• 2:05:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then crossbones kills cut throat.
• 2:05:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, cuts his throat, which is kind of like,
• 2:05:40
  [SPEAKER_06]: And I know you think about abusive relationships at times, is that you see a mother righteous does not dare betray the breadscope.
• 2:05:49
  [SPEAKER_06]: She is completely loyal to him never betrays him.
• 2:05:53
  [SPEAKER_06]: And then caught truth that treats her well, that's always open with her.
• 2:05:57
  [SPEAKER_06]: And tells her that, oh, I'm about to rescue my sister.
• 2:05:59
  [SPEAKER_06]: She's sort of betrays him by telling crossbones.
• 2:06:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: And she gets in cute, you know, and it's like the the one person here that treats you with our respects, you know, you kind of person here that treats you with respect, but also he likes to sneak into people's houses and cut their throws open.
• 2:06:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Not a good guy.
• 2:06:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's the other really fun part of this story.
• 2:06:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: We have Arnhem Zola shrinking the house down to a doll house to transport it around the world.
• 2:06:26
  [SPEAKER_06]: And then we get to see I just call you in reverse modok.
• 2:06:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I think it's hilarious.
• 2:06:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we get to see a bad guy, a pumpkin guy, like battling outside, like it's it's very awesome guys on point.
• 2:06:38
  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you like where these new characters for you?
• 2:06:40
  [SPEAKER_06]: I think I'm a little familiar with Jacqueline San from I think Donny Kates.
• 2:06:44
  [SPEAKER_06]: Donny Kates used him in lead to in his like first issue of venom.
• 2:06:48
  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, this is the first time I've ever liked it for long.
• 2:06:50
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's our actual
• 2:06:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, recommender, recommender did a venom run where he made Jacqueline or like the arch villain, but I think there's like four different Jacqueline and they're all different guys.
• 2:06:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I think that's it.
• 2:07:00
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they're different guys.
• 2:07:01
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so this one, they're like really funny.
• 2:07:03
  [SPEAKER_06]: They're like, you know, propanagement funny, all his trading jokes.
• 2:07:06
  [SPEAKER_06]: They made the comic way more interesting because of that jokes and everything.
• 2:07:11
  [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, they showed both sides of, you know, Captain America and Red Skull, because the entire Arabian both characters,
• 2:07:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know the character Silvermain?
• 2:07:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's the old man in the magia who has a robot body.
• 2:07:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's like an old Spider-Man villain from the early 70s.
• 2:07:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, black wing is his son.
• 2:07:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the heir to the magia.
• 2:07:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: Like there's the... Oh yeah, because I was reading that too.
• 2:07:36
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I read Scott Suk, my father's, Manchon, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 2:07:40
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:07:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:07:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Silvermain, which is he's a ridiculous villain.
• 2:07:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: So then we also have the red skull, like just kind of whining about like,
• 2:07:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing so many evil things.
• 2:07:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have my fingers in so many pies and everyone is boring, like he's so stupid.
• 2:07:57
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and the way the story is told that like, it's almost like every villain in the Marvel universe, you know, it's an honor for them to work with, you know, the red skull.
• 2:08:07
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's, it's put that way like it's the pinnacle of evil and a kind of the soul.
• 2:08:12
  [SPEAKER_06]: He actually done like actually sums up everything.
• 2:08:14
  [SPEAKER_06]: He has his aunts and magnifies like he is doing the big stuff.
• 2:08:17
  [SPEAKER_06]: That's all they've been in the top team and he's doing the small stuff like I'm using is, you know, he's a very good man.
• 2:08:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, in the in the previous many episode, which was with your dear friend, Oton, we talked a little bit.
• 2:08:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a meeting their ed school has with like the lead terrorist of like every organization in America, where he's like giving money to all of them and like funding all of them.
• 2:08:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a it's a really it key comparison to America in 2025,
• 2:08:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't
• 2:09:08
  [SPEAKER_06]: For Viper, he's subjects himself to pain, he puts himself in a vulnerable position and acts Viper to take control, you know?
• 2:09:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's almost like he's challenging someone to kill him, like come after me, like make me feel something, make me feel pain, you know, make me do this, you know?
• 2:09:24
  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, for someone that's,
• 2:09:26
  [SPEAKER_06]: is overly submissive, they are the ones that are the objects of pain.
• 2:09:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, matter where you find yourself, you know, always try to, you know, have a backbone stand up for yourself.
• 2:09:38
  [SPEAKER_06]: Do not select loyalty or anything make you, make you devoid of free will and you know, self respect.
• 2:09:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Which takes me to my opening kind of stanzas about women, uh, the way women are treated by the Nazi party, right?
• 2:09:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, no, you're place.
• 2:09:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: That old Kinder Kitsha Karka, that children kitchen church, like those are the only places you belong, right?
• 2:10:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then I shared these two examples.
• 2:10:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: One girl dares speak out and she's killed.
• 2:10:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: The other one is, uh, it was the party line and then has to poison her children, like, uh, and herself at the end, you know, uh, hearing those examples of like, brave women kind of fighting back along the way.
• 2:10:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's a jarring example of the, the way victimization is, uh, is the parallel to fascism, right?
• 2:10:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, all about knowing your proper place, which just allows the white guys room at the top and everyone else has to know where they belong.
• 2:10:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 2:10:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not going to work for me.
• 2:10:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, everybody.
• 2:10:31
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I see what you will have our Russians, you know, I think reading Sarah by Bethany and Steve Eptin, you know, able to learn that is inspired by a true life story of female soldiers of the Russian army.
• 2:10:48
  [SPEAKER_06]: Soviets, you know, and how the women play the big role in the military and what snipers, you know, and how one of the most successful snipers was a woman and how many people are many Nazi soldiers who was able to kill, you know.
• 2:11:05
  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, saying a regime that looked down on women, you know, gets demolished by, you know, female soldiers, you know, it was, it makes
• 2:11:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: You know.
• 2:11:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I remember arguing writing, uh, X-Men read during the cricoa era where we had the aracco storylines going on.
• 2:11:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a lot of conversations from Apocalypse who's always been about survival of the fittest.
• 2:11:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then people start asking questions.
• 2:11:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Does fittest mean strongest?
• 2:11:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: Does it mean toughest?
• 2:11:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: When might argue, fittest means the most resilient, the most ability to adapt to change, right?
• 2:11:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: And women are not unfit in any way.
• 2:11:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: They're ways of showing bravery and courage and consistency.
• 2:11:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are some of the greatest heroic stories in history and during World War II, during fascism, eras are told by women.
• 2:11:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, diamond back, mother, night, and a Viper are an odd triptics.
• 2:11:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: this under, but I think their stories where they're surrounded by all these crazy villains, these are the ones that kind of rise out that you're like, oh, I want to know more about them, you know?
• 2:12:08
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Diamondback especially, you know, you know, sensing herself like, this is what I want to do in my life.
• 2:12:14
  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to be, you know,
• 2:12:15
  [SPEAKER_06]: I was watching the Avengers Mansion and this is this she vines herself in victim of cross bones But when she's in prison, she does everything to free herself You know, she's able to become this very she doesn't become a damsel in distress You know, she's able to set herself free.
• 2:12:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: She's able to fight and everything so you
• 2:12:35
  [SPEAKER_06]: We see that, you know, no matter the circumstance, you know, yeah, we make an all-estandle for themselves.
• 2:12:41
  [SPEAKER_06]: And that makes it such an enjoyable read, you know, with the contrast of, you know, red skull.
• 2:12:45
  [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, I loved every piece of this.
• 2:12:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's a really good read.
• 2:12:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Greenwald wrote Captain America for like 10 years.
• 2:12:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I mentioned this to no tune, but red skull instead of being the occasional supervillain.
• 2:12:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: He's like showing up in every issue.
• 2:12:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: He gets a little longed.
• 2:13:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, and he's horrible, you know, but it's kind of fun.
• 2:13:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have to tune this as well, but do you want to share your thoughts on what crazy America looks like from Nigeria from these days?
• 2:13:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's how are we looking over there?
• 2:13:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm guessing it's not great.
• 2:13:17
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a great ball.
• 2:13:18
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, you know, one is on this careful cause, you know.
• 2:13:21
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Nigerian and also the social media, I don't know, you know, you don't know what to believe, I want not to believe.
• 2:13:27
  [SPEAKER_06]: Because sometimes, of this sound extremely ridiculous, I like, there's no way this happened.
• 2:13:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: There's no way this happened, you know?
• 2:13:33
  [SPEAKER_06]: And then you check, I like, I think it happened, well, like, why I don't know, I'm not there, I can't, I can't see for sure, you know?
• 2:13:39
  [SPEAKER_06]: I've written scripts, I won't say for which publisher, because I don't want to get any more in trouble, you know?
• 2:13:43
  [SPEAKER_06]: I've written scripts, you know, where you are, like, it's just, you're not trying to attack any political party or anything.
• 2:13:49
  [SPEAKER_06]: You're just saying what you think your money should be about, and you get the notes back saying, sorry, we can't really publish this in this current climate.
• 2:14:00
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's going to feel like you are talking about the current administration or trying this or that and it's like, oh, it's like the current climate is that serious right now.
• 2:14:12
  [SPEAKER_06]: And so I'm like, OK, I think it's very
• 2:14:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so yeah, literally why I'm having these conversations with different friends because it feels like a way to speak truth, right?
• 2:14:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's get sick.
• 2:14:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's talk silly and then let's go, huh, what's happening around me, you know?
• 2:14:29
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and then what's then is also the, you know, the Bible quotes of, you know, remove the log from your eye before you remove the spec from, you know, that a person's eye, you know.
• 2:14:41
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I remember that.
• 2:14:42
  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
• 2:14:43
  [SPEAKER_06]: The contract, I mean, is pretty terrible right now, so maybe I should follow some of my own stuff.
• 2:14:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have to tune this as well, but in your own family heritage, was there any connection to World War II?
• 2:14:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: I know that there were, it affected everybody in some way, but like, when you look at your own family line, I don't think so.
• 2:15:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think so.
• 2:15:03
  [SPEAKER_06]: But I know I think Nigeria was involved at some points.
• 2:15:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: There were some wars during the time in Northern Africa and some of the surrounding.
• 2:15:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that is.
• 2:15:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: In my research, we'll be getting into Nigeria as far as I can tell.
• 2:15:12
  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no, no, no, not an angel, but some of our forces were borrowed.
• 2:15:16
  [SPEAKER_06]: I think at that time, we had some of the most strongest land forces in the world to the borrowed some of our forces to fight on some wars.
• 2:15:24
  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're pretty bad as it's because, you know, land force is thin, but...
• 2:15:28
  [SPEAKER_06]: was right now.
• 2:15:29
  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not about land forces now.
• 2:15:31
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's all about the missiles and the gadgets.
• 2:15:33
  [SPEAKER_06]: So now we're just on poor guys.
• 2:15:35
  [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, yeah, even when the G was taking over by the distant territory and regime, the military regime, you know, are presented to intervene and everyone was like, dude, we've set out of wars.
• 2:15:48
  [SPEAKER_06]: We are still struggling with
• 2:15:49
  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, the terrorist group of Quaram, instead of the wars for so long, just to leave them up big, like just to leave them back just to stay here.
• 2:15:57
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's strange, you know, the time I joke sometimes that, you know, it's like, well, it's just literally linked to the U.S. At the time, U.S. is struggling with something, for some reason, we struggle with the same thing, you know, it's a small skill, for some, you know, for some weather, it's a nice job.
• 2:16:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
• 2:16:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so grateful.
• 2:16:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Anytime we get to talk, I love creating this energy where we can be serious and comic booky and silly all at the same time, but mostly I really appreciate you wearing your sexy nonsuit to our interview today.
• 2:16:23
  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it does look like a sexy nonsuit.
• 2:16:27
  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a great, it's a great comic, so when I also check it out, check it out, it's fantastic.
• 2:16:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: I enjoyed it as a reader, I lent a lot as a comic book, right?
• 2:16:37
  [SPEAKER_06]: When it comes to life in general, and the political landscape and everything, I think it's resilience or this work-salt in the end.
• 2:16:47
  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't matter how dark things get, don't matter how bad things get.
• 2:16:50
  [SPEAKER_06]: Resilience or this work-salt in the end, that's what I believe.
• 2:16:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, much respect to my friend.
• 2:16:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I can't wait for a road storm.
• 2:16:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody keep your eyes out for Burai was incredible work at Marvel.
• 2:17:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: Such a joy to know you.
• 2:17:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I can't wait to hand again.
• 2:17:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for being here today.
• 2:17:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Marvel.
• 2:17:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for listening to Grimalk and Lane.
• 2:17:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: We hope you are enjoying this podcast.
• 2:17:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Grimalk and Lane is produced and recorded in Salt Lake City, Utah with music and editing done by my husband, Michael Bell, and promo art done by the incredible Seth Martell.
• 2:17:20
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• 2:17:27
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• 2:17:33
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• 2:17:35
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• 2:17:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll see you back your next time on Grimmulkin Lane.