Latest / Gladden Longevity Podcast / Master Sex and Intimacy: Self-Love, Courageous Conversations, and Unstoppable Connection - Episode 274

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Master Sex and Intimacy: Self-Love, Courageous Conversations, and Unstoppable Connection - Episode 274 · Gladden Longevity Podcast

• 1:28
  Welcome everybody to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast.
• 1:31
  I'm your host, Dr.
• 1:32
  Jeffrey Gladden.
• 1:33
  And today we're talking about a topic in longevity that I think is central in many ways to the whole life energy circle that we refer to here.
• 1:43
  It's central to health in many different ways, not only psycho-spiritual health, but physiological health, satisfaction with life, life purpose, there's so many things this
• 1:53
  factors into.
• 1:53
  So we're going to be talking about intimacy, sexuality.
• 1:57
  relationships and we're joined today by Caitlin V and Caitlin is a student of this area has been studying it for sounds like a couple of decades.
• 2:08
  Although I don't know you don't look that old but probably started some point.
• 2:13
  So anyway with that Caitlin welcome to the show.
• 2:16
  Hi.
• 2:16
  Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:18
  Yeah.
• 2:18
  Great.
• 2:19
  So tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 2:21
  How did you get interested in this in this area in this field.
• 2:24
  So you're totally right.
• 2:25
  I am in my mid 30s and I have been studying this for 20 years.
• 2:29
  I knew as a teenager that I was going to work in the field of sex and intimacy.
• 2:35
  I knew that specifically what I was meant to do in this field was to help people enjoy sex more and get more pleasure out of their bodies, out of their relationships.
• 2:46
  And consequently, that requires experiencing less obstacles and less shame.
• 2:52
  And so that really is the core of my work as it has developed.
• 2:55
  I went into empirical science.
• 2:58
  I didn't know or I didn't consider that like sex coaching existed.
• 3:02
  I don't know that it did exist when I was like choosing a major in college.
• 3:05
  So I went and got a master's in public health.
• 3:08
  I was an actual sexual health researcher.
• 3:11
  I worked for the Texas State Congress at one point through the Texas Medical Center.
• 3:15
  I went to get my doctoral program.
• 3:17
  I went to a doctoral program in public health in Houston.
• 3:21
  And I ended up leaving that because I wanted to work with people in a one-on-one capacity or a one-to-group capacity.
• 3:29
  So even as I was doing this empirical science research track during the day, I was teaching sex ed and leading sex related conversations and intimacy conversations and
• 3:38
  helping people with their relationships at night and speaking to purpose and fulfillment and our spiritual calling here while we're on earth.
• 3:47
  That is what I was living for.
• 3:49
  And eventually I realized I would end up in the ivory tower if I didn't get out of it.
• 3:54
  Right.
• 3:54
  And that is when I started my coaching career and my YouTube channel, which led to my show on HBO Max called good sex and the things that I'm doing today.
• 4:03
  Okay.
• 4:04
  Beautiful.
• 4:05
  Well, it's interesting.
• 4:06
  So you're 35, 20 years ago, you were 15.
• 4:09
  So I don't know how many 14, 15, 13 year old people that are out there that are so clear on wanting to go into a particular path.
• 4:19
  Was there something that just kind of drew you to it?
• 4:22
  Was there some story there, something related to yourself, parents, brothers, sisters?
• 4:28
  I don't know.
• 4:28
  It sounds like it could be something that triggered all that.
• 4:31
  Well, I grew up in Michigan with a pretty, I would say my parents leaned very moderate inside.
• 4:38
  You know, we didn't have a lot of religious upbringing.
• 4:41
  There wasn't much sexual shame.
• 4:43
  I didn't experience any sort of trauma or anything like that.
• 4:45
  There are, you know, certainly people go into the sex related
• 4:48
  field sometimes because they experience some of the negative aspects of sex and sexuality.
• 4:53
  For me, actually, I figured out how to self pleasure and bring pleasure to my body and give myself orgasm very early in life, very young, as a lot of people do.
• 5:04
  You know, I was fortunate in that my parents never shamed me or, you know, I wasn't doing it at the dinner table.
• 5:09
  So I didn't have to be correct in some kind of way.
• 5:13
  And so as I grew up and I realized that
• 5:15
  you know, what I very naively and innocently experienced as like this cool thing that my body was capable of, was something that was associated for other folks with a lot of shame
• 5:24
  and pain and discomfort and, and repression and especially, you know, folks who grew up in different kinds of households than I did, didn't have the same access and the freedom and
• 5:37
  ease of access to pleasure in their body.
• 5:40
  And I felt from a very young age that this really is a human right.
• 5:43
  That, that
• 5:45
  The fact that our bodies can feel good means that there's something there for us to explore and experience and we should be able to do so.
• 5:53
  And I think when I got to around that age and I was becoming sexually curious around involving other people in my exploration, I realized that we were not being set up for
• 6:04
  success by our parents, by our public school, that I went to a public school in Michigan, a great school.
• 6:10
  A school that had actually, compared to maybe what it looks like today, a little more nuanced conversation about sexual health, but it was still very disease and pregnancy
• 6:18
  avoidance oriented.
• 6:20
  And I couldn't get over the fact that other people didn't have the simplicity, innocence, and joy of feeling good in their body that I had experienced.
• 6:30
  that's been a mission to correct ever since.
• 6:33
  Yeah.
• 6:34
  Yeah, it's interesting.
• 6:35
  It sounds like...
• 6:36
  Really your early sexual experiences just kind of resonated with you deeply as this is like a wonderful good beautiful thing that just happens right the first time you had an
• 6:47
  orgasm and it's kind of like Wow, what a gift right?
• 6:52
  What a gift what a pleasure what a gift right and then and then it gets boxed up into all these different constructs and whether it's religious or societal or you know, whatever
• 7:02
  academic or whatever it is and
• 7:04
  It becomes villainized as dangerous, wrong.
• 7:09
  know, all these different labels get put on it.
• 7:11
  And so people end up carrying a lot of baggage around something that, you know, if you like to run, let's say you let's say you're a kid and you like to run and you go for a
• 7:23
  run.
• 7:24
  It's like, oh my gosh, I love running like this feels so good to me going through the woods.
• 7:27
  Nobody shames you about running through the woods.
• 7:29
  Right.
• 7:30
  And so it's a little bit like, why are we shaming everybody about, you know, something that's
• 7:34
  actually incredibly helpful.
• 7:36
  yeah.
• 7:37
  And that's free and that we all have, you know, consistent access to in a world where we're not conditioned to look for and enjoy pleasure, like the simple pleasures, right?
• 7:48
  We're conditioned really to enjoy, you know, maybe pleasures that cost a lot of money or are hard to obtain.
• 7:52
  And those are the ones that we sort of pedestal eyes.
• 7:55
  Yeah.
• 7:56
  There is this really easeful, simple, totally free, totally accessible.
• 8:02
  Yeah.
• 8:02
  pleasure that we can all have access to partner or not, no matter what age we are, even at different ability levels with different injuries, like we can experience pleasure and it
• 8:11
  doesn't have to be just erotic pleasure.
• 8:12
  But I think that erotic pleasure is kind of the thing that most exemplifies our access to pleasure if we allow ourselves to have it and enjoy it.
• 8:22
  Yeah, I agree.
• 8:24
  So let's talk a little bit more about intimacy.
• 8:26
  So we're really kind of talking about intimacy on a couple different levels.
• 8:30
  One is actually intimacy with yourself, right?
• 8:32
  There's a certain sort of self love, self joy, expression, if you will, of your own sexual capacity, orientations, whatever it might be.
• 8:44
  There's a certain joy in all of that.
• 8:46
  Right.
• 8:47
  And then you bring other people into the mix and it gets interesting because everybody sort of brings their own history into it, their own set of preconceptions.
• 8:59
  And then it gets overladen with
• 9:02
  the morality of something's right or something's wrong or something's good or something's bad, right?
• 9:06
  All of that gets layered on it.
• 9:09
  And so then people are left trying to recapture that joy and sometimes wondering, gosh, is this am I doing the right thing?
• 9:19
  Is this right?
• 9:20
  So talk us through a little bit how you kind of help deconstruct these situations for people as they're, you know, as you're working with them.
• 9:28
  Well, you said it yourself.
• 9:30
  It starts with
• 9:31
  us.
• 9:32
  My core teaching is that the way that you have sex with yourself, experience your own body and your own pleasure is core to what you are bringing and experiencing with another
• 9:41
  person.
• 9:42
  And I think a lot of folks, especially once we reach a certain age where sex becomes related to other people, it like we start to focus on partnered sex, can become we can
• 9:51
  become very goal oriented about partnered sex, we can experience like that.
• 9:55
  partnered sex is the gold medal and anything less than that.
• 9:58
  Sex with myself is just settling for a consolation prize.
• 10:03
  And the truth is that actually in all ways, the way that we relate to other people starts with the way that we relate to ourselves.
• 10:09
  We only have our own eyes through which to see the entire world.
• 10:12
  And like you said, once you start stacking on previous experiences, traumas, rejections, pain points from the past, anytime that we have...
• 10:22
  conflict what we want has conflicted with what we were taught or what we believe is moral or what we believe is right ways that we've caused pain to other people and then we add in
• 10:30
  a second person and all of their stuff related to morality and their experiences things get exponentially more complicated very quickly and the way that I think about this for my
• 10:41
  clients and in what I teach is let's strip all of that back to the basics and let's start with the two things that we can really
• 10:50
  have a, I'm going to say control over, which is we start with our body and we start with our pleasure in our body, our erotic experience of our body, because that is for us.
• 11:02
  I think, you know, depending on your model of relationships or marriage or, you know, the things that you were exposed to or taught, that alone can be really confronting for
• 11:11
  people.
• 11:12
  But that's where the empowerment to actually make any sort of shifts begins.
• 11:18
  So what I'm hearing you say is that really having a great sex life really begins with having a great sex life with yourself.
• 11:25
  Yes.
• 11:26
  Yeah.
• 11:27
  Yeah.
• 11:27
  And it doesn't have to look any particular way.
• 11:29
  Great can look a lot of ways.
• 11:31
  What's great for you may be totally great for me, but it starts with you.
• 11:34
  Right.
• 11:35
  I think that's a really key takeaway point because there's a lot of work that an individual can do just getting comfortable, let's say, with kind of
• 11:46
  who they are, understanding who they are, understand what brings pleasure, what doesn't bring pleasure, what they like to fantasize about, what they don't like to fantasize
• 11:54
  about, all the different things that go into it.
• 11:58
  So that's a really interesting place.
• 12:00
  think people sort of take that for granted.
• 12:02
  In other words, they think that they're just gonna show up and all of a sudden it's gonna kind of work out.
• 12:09
  There's a lot of homework to do here, right?
• 12:10
  Is what you're saying.
• 12:11
  Yeah, or home play.
• 12:13
  But I think we all have the idea, and this is true not just in sex and intimacy, but also like in romantic relationships as well, that our partner is going to complete or know or
• 12:26
  unleash or make up for or do something to us that is going to allow us to have the experience that we are wanting to have.
• 12:36
  And certainly it is true.
• 12:38
  This is one of the reasons that we find sexual and romantic partners.
• 12:42
  is because they do show us different sides of ourself.
• 12:45
  They act as a mirror, they reflect things, they also make up for some of our weaknesses with their strengths, right?
• 12:50
  We can sort of import and export like different characteristics between us and our partner.
• 12:55
  And so that is definitely true in the bedroom as well.
• 12:58
  But if we approach partnership from the perspective of they will figure this out for me, or you know, for my clients, when they come to me, they're like, my
• 13:07
  partner, my spouse, my husband, my wife is doing it wrong in some way or another, and I need to fix them.
• 13:13
  I need to change them.
• 13:14
  We don't allow ourselves to really harness our own power to shift our relationship, whether that's what we want to shift is inside or outside of the bedroom.
• 13:26
  think that's a great point.
• 13:28
  When I think about making love, let's call it making love, to me, it's really a conversation.
• 13:35
  It's not a physical act.
• 13:36
  It's really a conversation.
• 13:37
  And the conversation is mind, body, spirit.
• 13:40
  It's a mind, body, spirit kind of conversation.
• 13:42
  Right.
• 13:43
  So it's all of you bring all of yourself to it.
• 13:47
  And there's a there's a real desire.
• 13:50
  Let's just take sexuality out of it.
• 13:52
  If you're just getting to know somebody.
• 13:54
  Right.
• 13:56
  You know, I mentioned to you that for me, the the definition of a good relationship apart from sexual activity for a second.
• 14:03
  is to know and be known and to love and be loved.
• 14:06
  so being able to be known is is putting ourselves in a vulnerable state, right?
• 14:12
  It's by definition, right?
• 14:14
  Putting yourself in a vulnerable state and then finding a partner.
• 14:18
  think the definition of a good partner is somebody that can hold space for you and wants to understand your vulnerabilities and not judge you.
• 14:23
  It's not about judging.
• 14:24
  It's really about understanding.
• 14:27
  And then.
• 14:28
  than the other person holding that same space for the other person, right?
• 14:32
  And that's true whether you're talking about a shopping list, a vacation, how you're going to decorate your kitchen or whatever it is, right?
• 14:39
  There's this sense of reciprocity and vulnerability.
• 14:43
  So my point is that if you're listening to this, you can actually develop a better sex life, even talking about mundane kinds of activities.
• 14:53
  If you go about it in this fashion of
• 14:55
  I'm really here to know you better and understand you better, right?
• 14:58
  So no one be known so I can love you more completely.
• 15:00
  Yes.
• 15:01
  Right.
• 15:02
  Yeah.
• 15:02
  We have the conception that, you know, sex starts and ends in the bedroom, but sex is not separate from the rest of our lives.
• 15:10
  And one of the things I love to say is the way you do one thing is the way you do everything.
• 15:14
  Like I can I get kind of hung up when I go to the grocery store because I love watching people grocery shop because I feel like I can learn so much about them.
• 15:24
  just by the way that they move through this very kind of mundane task.
• 15:28
  And it's probably because they're not really thinking so much about it.
• 15:30
  No one's like self criticizing the way that the grocery shop, but maybe.
• 15:33
  No, you're judging them except you.
• 15:34
  Right.
• 15:35
  Yeah.
• 15:36
  Well, I'm just analyzing, but yeah.
• 15:38
  But it's true for anything.
• 15:40
  Like, you know, the way that you think about checking your mail, paying your bills, getting your car serviced.
• 15:45
  Like I can see so much about the way that you interact with the world.
• 15:48
  And even more so if I watch you think about making dinner with your partner or going, you know,
• 15:52
  planning a vacation with your partner, I can see some of the ways in which you're going to show up in bed, right?
• 15:58
  It's not separate.
• 15:59
  And the other thing, you you mentioned that one of the core aspects of the life energy circle is our experience of safety.
• 16:07
  So much of intimacy, which this is a little cliche, but I kind of like the definition of intimacy as into me see, is our willingness to be seen and see into someone else.
• 16:18
  And that requires a great deal of safety.
• 16:20
  Because if we've had experiences where we let someone see us very deeply and then they rejected us or they use the information that they learned about us to cause us pain or
• 16:28
  inflict emotional damage on us, it can be increasingly difficult over time to allow ourselves to be vulnerable and to allow ourselves to be seen.
• 16:37
  And if that's the energy that we're carrying in our relationship, maybe because we haven't gotten things complete, maybe because there's wounds or things from the past that we're
• 16:44
  not allowed to talk about, or we've been holding things back for so long.
• 16:49
  and we never give ourselves the space to actually have the conversations that we need to have, whether that's for fear of being left or fear of causing pain, then that all comes
• 16:58
  into the bedroom with us.
• 17:01
  And like you said, if it's a mind, body, spirit conversation, then we can have various shades of presence on each of those three levels.
• 17:10
  But they're all going to impact each other.
• 17:12
  If I'm only trying to be really present with my body,
• 17:15
  and I'm trying to not bring my spirit and my mind into the conversation with me, I'm only going to be able to experience so much sensation or so much pleasure, right?
• 17:24
  Or if I'm only trying to be present with my mind and my body's not really engaged in this because it's tired of me not listening to it when it comes to this relationship and it's
• 17:33
  like, and the way that this looks is like women experiencing pain with sex, experiencing an inability to reach orgasm, men experiencing erectile dysfunction, but only with a
• 17:42
  partner.
• 17:43
  never experiencing erectile dysfunction when they're alone, waking up with an erection every morning, but then, you know, when they're with their wife or their partner, like, it
• 17:49
  can't get hard.
• 17:50
  This is the way that the body kicks itself out of the conversation, right?
• 17:53
  Like you have to be willing to show up and be vulnerable in all three in order to have that great sex life.
• 17:59
  And if you can't, a lot of people come to me because they're like, sex is a problem, right?
• 18:04
  Everything else is great.
• 18:06
  But when we start to unpack it, it's like sex is always the symptom.
• 18:09
  The problem exists in every single level, yeah.
• 18:12
  That's right.
• 18:13
  No sex.
• 18:13
  Yeah.
• 18:14
  Sexual.
• 18:16
  I wouldn't even call it dysfunction, but sex, that's not everything that you'd like it to be is really a symptom, which if you have a symptom, it's really an opportunity to
• 18:26
  understand it more deeply.
• 18:27
  It's like, gosh, I wonder why this is the case.
• 18:30
  Right.
• 18:32
  Yeah, I think it's really true.
• 18:34
  And I think that safety is really a big one.
• 18:38
  think, you know, men can suffer.
• 18:41
  erectile dysfunction for a variety of reasons, some of which are physiologic.
• 18:44
  Maybe there's nerve damage, diabetes or a trauma or something that could be vascular disease related to cardiovascular events or things like that.
• 18:53
  But it can also be due to psychological trauma or feelings of guilt or feelings of shame or whatever it is.
• 19:02
  Right.
• 19:03
  So in fact, that can sort of shut down sexual function as profoundly, if not more profoundly.
• 19:10
  than a physiologic impairment, which there are many times there are ways to overcome those with a variety of techniques or tools or whatever it might be.
• 19:20
  So it's really for me, it's a conversation and it's really more in your head than it is in your body.
• 19:30
  It's not that your body's not part of it, but the head kind of is leading the charge here.
• 19:34
  Right.
• 19:35
  And so creating
• 19:36
  A sense of safety and intimacy with you and your partner where you're free to explore and you're free, you're fantasized and you're free to, to go down different paths and step
• 19:44
  into the taboo and step out of the taboo and step into, you know, role player, whatever you want to do, having the freedom and developing a safety zone where you can play in this
• 19:55
  way.
• 19:56
  starts to open you up to lots of pleasure and joy that you may not have known was there, right?
• 20:01
  But it's last thing you first.
• 20:02
  I want to say regarding the like.
• 20:05
  mind, body, spirit, is that all of us, we sort of all fall into different archetypes.
• 20:11
  I use a system called the erotic blueprints that is like a sexual archetyping system.
• 20:15
  And I'm happy to give you a breakdown of that.
• 20:17
  But I would say that each of us has a different entry point when it comes to arousal and when it comes to eroticism.
• 20:25
  And for some folks, that entry point is going to be the body.
• 20:27
  It's either going to be the body in terms of the senses, tastes, smells, touch, feels,
• 20:35
  that kind of body experience, sensational body experience, or it's gonna be through the body in the sense of like genitals, orgasms, naked bodies, right?
• 20:44
  That's gonna be the entry point and then the mind and the spirit will follow, right?
• 20:48
  For some folks, it is really about the energetic connection, the presence, like the quality of the texture of the energy between the people and how engaged they are and being
• 20:59
  present with each other.
• 21:00
  And once that is...
• 21:02
  touched on, once that is secured, once they have that experience, then the mind and the body can follow.
• 21:07
  And then for some folks, it's going to be the mental engagement.
• 21:10
  Some of the examples that you gave like role playing or kink or BDSM, a lot of that can be about bringing the mind into the bedroom with us.
• 21:16
  It can be about engaging our problem solving or thinking our creative brain in such a way that we have access to turn on through our mind and then the body and the spirit can
• 21:27
  follow.
• 21:28
  And then there are some folks who have multiple access points.
• 21:30
  Eroticism just comes very naturally or easy to them, or maybe they've done a lot of work in order to engage so they can get their mind or body or spirit.
• 21:38
  They can jump on in.
• 21:40
  Right.
• 21:40
  Exactly.
• 21:41
  No, think that's well said.
• 21:43
  Yeah, I think there are a variety of entry points.
• 21:47
  And for any individual, there can be a variety of entry points with the same person over time.
• 21:52
  Right.
• 21:53
  Or
• 21:55
  with different people that can be different entry points for different people.
• 21:58
  Whatever.
• 21:59
  Right.
• 21:59
  So all this is true.
• 22:00
  And I think one of the things that I think we talk about in the life energy circle that I think is relevant here is that we've all suffered trauma in our lives in one form or
• 22:14
  another.
• 22:15
  And then the problem is we end up living in reaction to that trauma.
• 22:19
  Right.
• 22:20
  And so that
• 22:21
  sort of tends to shut us down or we shy away from something.
• 22:24
  It could be anything.
• 22:24
  It could be starting a checking account or it could be something in the bedroom.
• 22:29
  Right.
• 22:29
  But in living in reaction to those traumas, I think it's really, really important to not bypass those, but to actually dive deep into those deconstructed, understand what was the
• 22:43
  trauma, what happened, what, what, what affected me, what, how did I affect somebody else?
• 22:48
  What was my role?
• 22:49
  What was their role?
• 22:51
  You know, and if you can really do that, then in, my experience, you have the ability to start to heal that you can't really kill it until you fully understand it.
• 23:01
  And then once you heal it, you can actually from a psycho spiritual space, you can actually transcend it to where you actually become grateful for everything that ever
• 23:09
  happened, because now it gives you more empathy and sympathy and whatever for your partner or where they're coming from or whomever it is.
• 23:17
  Right.
• 23:17
  So it actually becomes a plus.
• 23:19
  But to transition from being encumbered by that trauma to being unencumbered by that trauma is a really important transition to make.
• 23:29
  And I think it should almost be, if you're listening to this, I'm going to make this statement.
• 23:33
  You correct me if you think I'm wrong.
• 23:35
  But I think part of our journey in our own sexuality is to actually identify those things where we do feel stuck and explore them, heal them, transcend them and become unencumbered
• 23:44
  so we can actually bring all of ourselves forward.
• 23:46
  Right.
• 23:48
  terms of everything.
• 23:48
  I don't know, that's kind of how I'm thinking about it.
• 23:51
  Yeah, I agree entirely.
• 23:52
  And I think that the just like, you know, my experience of physical or emotional wounding is that the learning the conditions under which the body heals best and, you know,
• 24:07
  treating treating my physical body in such a way that I experience both gratitude for its ongoing capacity
• 24:15
  as well as compassion for the injury, the loss of capacity.
• 24:19
  And that, you know, the experience of that does soften us and allow us to experience more empathy for other people.
• 24:28
  It also causes us to connect with our vulnerability.
• 24:31
  You know, I recently tore a hamstring.
• 24:34
  didn't tear it all the way, but I really injured my hamstring.
• 24:37
  I,
• 24:41
  I had never, I wasn't very athletic as a kid.
• 24:43
  had pretty uncontrolled asthma until I was in my mid-20s and I realized I needed to stop and change my diet.
• 24:48
  Now I'm far more athletic than I ever was, but I never experienced like an athletic injury until I was in my mid-30s.
• 24:55
  And I got to have this experience of like, okay, I see the physical limitations of my body in a new way.
• 25:02
  I see what a blessing it has been to have hamstrings in perfect condition up until today.
• 25:08
  I get to experience and I have far more empathy for the people in my life who have experienced any sort of injury along this line that takes such a long time to heal and
• 25:16
  like, you know, the real emotional and mental challenge that comes along with a physical injury.
• 25:21
  And I think that we can look at emotional and mental and relational injuries through the same lens.
• 25:27
  You know, we I understood I was mad at first, but when I learned that it was going to take six to eight months for my hamstring to feel better, I was like,
• 25:36
  Okay, and we don't do the same with our heart.
• 25:39
  Right?
• 25:39
  We don't go to a physician or a clinician or a coach or a therapist and say like, Oh, my heart is really broken.
• 25:44
  And they go, Yeah, it's probably gonna take like eight to 12 months in order to feel better.
• 25:48
  You know, like you might have to feel that pain every single day for eight to 12 full months before you start to experience, you know, feeling wholeness or flexibility or the
• 25:58
  full capacity of your heart again.
• 26:00
  And so instead of actually, you know, I couldn't avoid the physical pain of my hamstring, right?
• 26:06
  but we do gymnastics and we put a whole bunch of time and energy and we just squander so much of our capacity and so much of our life force on stifling and repressing the pains of
• 26:17
  our mind and our spirit and our heart, right?
• 26:21
  Yeah, I think that's right.
• 26:22
  I don't think it's true that we don't have to feel them, but I think it is true that we can avoid it, just like if I avoided walking.
• 26:28
  Yeah, it's an interesting point that you make.
• 26:33
  And I think part of it,
• 26:35
  is that people feel like I'm just hypothesizing here that we need to show up, you know, come hell or high water, we sort of need to show up.
• 26:47
  And somebody doesn't want to listen to us talk about our trauma, right?
• 26:53
  I think what's so important
• 26:57
  When we talk about being a good sex partner, I think a lot of it is about being a good listener, right?
• 27:05
  Being receptive to what the other person is saying, both verbally and non-verbally.
• 27:11
  Right.
• 27:11
  And exploring all those things.
• 27:13
  Right.
• 27:14
  Because when you do that, you start to when somebody feels known and understood, my gosh, intimacy just goes through the roof.
• 27:22
  Right.
• 27:22
  All of a sudden, now they feel safe.
• 27:23
  They feel seen.
• 27:24
  They feel heard.
• 27:25
  Now.
• 27:26
  If you want to have a great lover, know, the best thing you can do is actually be a great listener or who they are.
• 27:34
  Right.
• 27:35
  Yeah.
• 27:36
  And move slowly enough that you can actually listen to their words and to their body.
• 27:42
  You know, the word that I use most is attunement.
• 27:45
  Like a great lover is highly attuned to their partner, which means that, you know, just the same way that you tune an instrument, you like listen to it.
• 27:53
  You make those adjustments, tweaks, but you have to be
• 27:56
  really, really present and you have to almost remove parts of yourself from the equation, right?
• 28:01
  Because too often we can hear our lover say that they like this or they don't like that.
• 28:05
  And we make it mean something about us.
• 28:06
  my performance or I'm not, I'm not good enough or I am too much.
• 28:11
  Right?
• 28:12
  And really your partner's preferences are their own.
• 28:15
  They're not a reflection of you.
• 28:18
  And when we're listening, you know, the way I kind of see that is we're listening with like gunk in the pipe.
• 28:24
  You know, we've put too much of our stuff and our own BS and our own ego into the channel through which we are listening to this person.
• 28:32
  So we're not really getting like clear flow of information.
• 28:34
  We're not getting clear signal because we've got gunk.
• 28:38
  No, that's exactly true.
• 28:39
  But God bless us.
• 28:40
  You know, we've got our own stuff too, right?
• 28:43
  So we have to be, you know, this certain kindness towards ourselves in this whole process too, right?
• 28:49
  yeah.
• 28:50
  And to your point, that is where the trauma healing comes in.
• 28:53
  I think we are at such a total and complete lack of examples of people who are doing this sort of trauma healing for themselves, emotional, mental, spiritual, and relational
• 29:07
  healing.
• 29:09
  It's very vulnerable to come out and to be public or to share.
• 29:13
  My divorce, it really set me back.
• 29:15
  I experienced a ton of pain and rejection.
• 29:17
  I had this feeling of failure.
• 29:20
  And I had to go through and tend to the parts of myself that had been in a codependent relationship, the wounds that that created, but like whatever it is, right?
• 29:31
  How often do you hear people sharing about their heartbreaks and their relationships from that kind of perspective?
• 29:37
  I mean, usually it's not.
• 29:38
  Usually we're engaging.
• 29:39
  And the way that you know that you have some form of trauma that's coming up or coming forward is I think simply to look at, we engaging in fight behaviors?
• 29:49
  light behaviors, fawn behaviors, freeze behaviors, are we being hypervigilant?
• 29:54
  Like all of those things are pretty good indication that there's something that we can heal.
• 29:59
  But because of the lack of modeling for what that healing can look like, and could be, you know, our parents didn't do it, our grandparents didn't do it, the people around us didn't
• 30:07
  do it, we can fall under the impression that this kind of healing has to be difficult.
• 30:12
  that this kind of healing is going to kill us, it's going to take us out.
• 30:16
  If I even begin to take the lid off of how much my heart breaks, then I'll never stop crying, you know?
• 30:23
  And the truth is that that's not, that isn't what happens.
• 30:27
  know?
• 30:27
  It doesn't, it's not always easy, but it doesn't have to be difficult.
• 30:31
  The interesting thing I think is that when emotions are actually acknowledged,
• 30:38
  you can start to deal with them.
• 30:40
  know, when I was practicing interventional cardiology for 25 years, and even in my medical training, one of the things that I learned was that, for example, in the ICU, I was at
• 30:52
  Case Western in the ICU for a rotation, and we had a neurologist that was the attending physician.
• 30:59
  And he was incredibly meticulous with us about helping us to care for the family of the person that was in the ICU.
• 31:06
  and what they were going through relative to this person being ill.
• 31:10
  And he taught us that really that people can deal with anything.
• 31:14
  The hardest thing for them to deal with is ambiguity.
• 31:17
  And so if you know someone's going to die in the next 36 hours, let the family know, I think they're going to die rather than stringing them along saying, well, you we're not
• 31:26
  sure we're doing our best.
• 31:28
  You know, we're going to try this.
• 31:29
  You know what I'm saying?
• 31:30
  And so in my career, I would have conversations when I knew somebody was really I would say, look,
• 31:36
  I think there's a 5 % chance that Mary or John or whoever is going to be here, you know, tomorrow or within 48 hours.
• 31:43
  And I think you should know that.
• 31:44
  And if you'd like to come in and bring your family, we'll make, you know, access available to you and all that sort of thing.
• 31:50
  And people were always so grateful.
• 31:53
  Right.
• 31:54
  And so part of it in relationships in general is when ambiguity shows up, like, am I going to be accepted?
• 32:01
  Am I going to be rejected?
• 32:02
  Right.
• 32:03
  Ambiguity is really like,
• 32:04
  That's almost like an invitation card to me now.
• 32:07
  It's like, there's ambiguity here.
• 32:08
  Let's go in and let's go in and actually explore the ambiguity so we can actually resolve it or see what it is or understand both what it is and what it isn't.
• 32:16
  Right.
• 32:16
  And I think that's a really, that's a really cool little thing to do.
• 32:20
  So, I think that, you know, you mentioned before we started recording courageous conversations.
• 32:27
  Yeah.
• 32:28
  Right.
• 32:29
  One of the greatest gifts that we can give to ourselves and to the people that we love is
• 32:34
  saying the thing that is difficult to say.
• 32:38
  Whenever I find myself having a conversation to myself internally about a thing that I want to share externally, but I think it's going to be hard.
• 32:52
  I don't say I know it's going to be hard.
• 32:53
  think, I don't want to say that out loud because what if they don't receive it well?
• 32:57
  What if I don't say it correctly and I actually cause more damage?
• 33:01
  the thing is that there are structures for having these kinds of communication that allow us to experience like a higher degree of safety than if we just do the thing that we've
• 33:10
  done in the past, which is maybe like wait until it boils over and then just like blurt it out.
• 33:15
  I need more freedom or I need space.
• 33:17
  I need a night alone to myself.
• 33:20
  It is often that if we engaged in like a minimal amount of structure,
• 33:25
  that conversation.
• 33:26
  And we're like one Google, we're one chat GPT search away from like, I have to say a thing that is difficult to my spouse, my loved one, my child, my boss, my neighbor.
• 33:38
  How can I put this or what what structure can I put into place such that I can say the thing that I'm resisting, and they might be able to hear it in a way that allows us to
• 33:48
  move towards each other instead of away from each other.
• 33:52
  Communication is something that doesn't have to be the like the obstacle that it occurs to us as.
• 34:01
  That's right.
• 34:02
  I think this is exactly right.
• 34:03
  I think when you feel resistance to me, you you were talking about feeling certain different things.
• 34:08
  I think a lot of those can be kind of collected under resistance.
• 34:13
  If you're feeling resistance towards something and saying something or whatever, that's the thing that needs to be said.
• 34:18
  And the courageous conversation is always going to feel like
• 34:21
  my gosh, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but let me bring this forward.
• 34:27
  And the way I do it is to just say, you know, I have something on my heart that I'd like to share with you.
• 34:31
  Is this a good time?
• 34:32
  Is this a good time?
• 34:33
  And if the person says, yeah, it's a great time or no, not right now because I'm then great.
• 34:38
  Let's pick another time.
• 34:39
  But when there is in a receptive mode, it's like, let me share what's happening for me here.
• 34:45
  And if you have a contract with each other set up outside of that conversation, it's like, you know,
• 34:51
  Let's have courageous conversations.
• 34:52
  Let's do it on a weekly basis.
• 34:54
  Let's ask each other, what's the most courageous conversation we could have this Sunday afternoon, both from your direction and my direction, right?
• 35:01
  So you create a kind of a rhythm to it where it's not out of the blue, right?
• 35:05
  This becomes a really great way to have these conversations.
• 35:09
  It's practice.
• 35:10
  You know, it's training.
• 35:11
  You hit the gym like we don't expect that we're going to be able to lift the two or 300 pounds immediately.
• 35:19
  Right?
• 35:19
  And if we honor that these things are actually skill sets that we can practice and that we can train and that we, you know, the only way to do it is to start and to start maybe
• 35:28
  responsibly, maybe to start slowly, maybe to start, but just to start and then have the discipline of doing it on a regular basis.
• 35:35
  I, my partner and I ask each other, tell me one thing you want me to understand about you.
• 35:40
  that's a good one.
• 35:41
  Yeah.
• 35:41
  Right.
• 35:41
  Cause it's, it's not, you know, we're not setting ourselves up for, sometimes it's revealed some very, very deep things.
• 35:47
  I want you to understand that I am struggling with this or when you do this thing, I experience it as that, right?
• 35:53
  But it can also be really simple.
• 35:55
  Like I'm having a kind of a tough time with my boss and I really don't understand what they want from me and I'm afraid I'm going to get fired and that creates an environment of
• 36:05
  kind of inconsistency and uncertainty around me.
• 36:07
  And the best thing that you can do as my partner is be consistent and stable with me or make me dinner.
• 36:14
  three nights this week or whatever.
• 36:15
  And the practice of this particular question that we ask each other is that it's not a conversation starter.
• 36:20
  I'm not responding to what he is saying or what I'm saying to him.
• 36:24
  Tell me one thing you want me to understand about you.
• 36:26
  Here is the thing.
• 36:28
  And then if we want to engage in a conversation around that, we have to ask for consent.
• 36:32
  And that's the same thing that you were just saying.
• 36:34
  Like I have something on my heart.
• 36:35
  Do you have space for me to say it?
• 36:37
  I'll often start by saying like, Hey, there's something that I want to share with you.
• 36:41
  Can I?
• 36:43
  Right?
• 36:45
  My partner's probably never, ever, ever said no to that.
• 36:48
  Right.
• 36:48
  Right.
• 36:49
  And maybe it's not a...
• 36:51
  It's a timing issue sometimes, but it's...
• 36:54
  Right.
• 36:54
  If it's never no, it's maybe like not right now, you know?
• 36:59
  But even just breaking the ice in that way, instead of blurting out the thing that we're resisting saying, can make such a world of difference.
• 37:07
  I like to add, there's something that I want to say to you.
• 37:10
  Do you have space to hear it?
• 37:11
  Great.
• 37:11
  Okay.
• 37:12
  It's been, it's difficult for me to say it because I am afraid of, or I'm telling myself a story that now I'm like clearing the air.
• 37:19
  I'm getting the elephant out right away.
• 37:21
  Right.
• 37:22
  And now I have actual space.
• 37:24
  have created an environment in which I can say the thing that needs to be said.
• 37:28
  That's right.
• 37:29
  Yeah, exactly.
• 37:30
  I think that's a great way to, I think that's a great way to talk about it.
• 37:35
  I want to introduce an elephant into the room, at least from my perspective, let's see if it's there or not.
• 37:39
  Right.
• 37:39
  So.
• 37:40
  right, bring it forward.
• 37:42
  And I also think that humor is a great way to break down resistance, right?
• 37:48
  So even if you can approach yourself from a humorous perspective and have humor in the context of this, it makes the conversation that much easier, right?
• 37:58
  Both people can kind of laugh at themselves or each other or whatever it is, but it's like, hey, you know, it's a great way to break the ice on these things, I think.
• 38:08
  And what we're saying by adding this structure of, here's how you may introduce this conversation.
• 38:12
  That's the science.
• 38:15
  The rest is art.
• 38:16
  Yeah.
• 38:17
  Right.
• 38:17
  We're making art out of our lives.
• 38:19
  When we're having these difficult conversations, we're allowing ourselves to be messy and imperfect and to not get it totally right.
• 38:25
  And then we're adding this extra layer of creativity, which is part of the grand human endeavor.
• 38:30
  And that that is where we say, OK, can I make this interaction light?
• 38:36
  Can I make this interaction?
• 38:39
  Joyous.
• 38:40
  Yeah, joyous is exactly it.
• 38:43
  Yeah, exactly.
• 38:44
  Yeah, no, I think that's right.
• 41:03
  Yeah, so just thinking about, know, I did some, I had a relationship that ended at one point in time.
• 41:16
  In the process of...
• 41:17
  working on that relationship, we got involved with a MAGO therapy.
• 41:20
  I don't know if you're familiar with a MAGO, but for the audience, it's a really useful strategy.
• 41:27
  And I found it to be incredibly helpful for me to actually understand this person more deeply.
• 41:32
  And essentially in a MAGO therapy, if you and I were doing a MAGO therapy, you would invite me over to the bridge into Caitlin V land and I would go into your world and I
• 41:43
  would first give you three affirmations like
• 41:46
  Caitlin, I think you're this, I'm so grateful you're that, I really appreciate this about you.
• 41:52
  And then you might say the same thing back to me.
• 41:57
  And then you would say, but here's what's on my heart.
• 41:59
  Here's what I really want to share.
• 42:01
  And then in that context, the only thing that I can do is basically reflect back to you what I hear you saying, which is so important because language being a poor form of
• 42:11
  communication, you know, when...
• 42:13
  When we dribble out words, I hate this inside your mind.
• 42:18
  I love it.
• 42:18
  I hate it.
• 42:19
  I'm I'm in between.
• 42:20
  There's things I'm ambiguous about.
• 42:21
  There's a whole gestalt of things.
• 42:23
  And yet people only hear that.
• 42:24
  I hate this or I love that or whatever.
• 42:26
  Right.
• 42:26
  So tell me more about that.
• 42:28
  Right.
• 42:29
  Tell me more about that.
• 42:30
  I get that.
• 42:30
  What I think I'm sure you saying is this.
• 42:32
  Is that right?
• 42:33
  You know, kind of therapeutic language, if you will.
• 42:35
  But you're exploring the other person and giving them the space to actually start to.
• 42:40
  paint a more comprehensive picture of what's actually going on in their mind, right?
• 42:44
  And in their heart.
• 42:46
  And I found that to be so incredibly powerful.
• 42:48
  The more I would do that and reflect back, even if they were saying something that was actually factually wrong, like it actually, that didn't actually even happen.
• 42:57
  And I would say, tell me more about that, right?
• 42:59
  Because you're really getting into their space.
• 43:01
  I found myself getting so much more empathetic.
• 43:04
  towards their perspective, which was really the goal of it.
• 43:06
  And now all of a sudden it's like, okay, I can see this through your eyes and let's take a different tact on this, right?
• 43:13
  And then you invite, then I would invite you over the bridge into, you know, Jeff Gladden land and we would, we would have reciprocity there, but those kinds of structured,
• 43:23
  conversations, you know, if you're listening to this, something like that can be incredibly helpful at helping you to broach these complex topics.
• 43:31
  Because what happens is many times.
• 43:35
  If you're not used to these kinds of conversations at some point you're gonna want to jump into judgment and Judgment is really what kills, you know the whole thing right?
• 43:44
  That's like a real problem So you want to avoid judging and this thing you really want to work on understanding deeply, right?
• 43:51
  We're gonna want to jump into Defending explaining, you know the purpose of most conversations like the conversation that you and I are having right now We're we're waving
• 44:01
  our way around agreement and alignment
• 44:04
  Right?
• 44:04
  We're looking for those areas where we agree.
• 44:06
  We're identifying areas where maybe we don't and we can add more information that can help us get to an alignment together.
• 44:12
  That's right.
• 44:13
  When we have a structured conversation like that, the purpose is not to get to agreement and alignment.
• 44:19
  The purpose is to get to understanding.
• 44:21
  And that is a one way street.
• 44:23
  Like one person is speaking and the other is in the role of understanding and listening.
• 44:28
  And then we switch.
• 44:29
  And that's why having that kind of structure where I'm not responding to what you're saying, or if I am responding, I'm responding to make sure that I got it.
• 44:37
  Because the experience of getting gotten is one of the most profound and pleasurable experiences that we can have as a human being, especially when it's by a romantic partner
• 44:46
  or someone who is very close to us.
• 44:47
  And when we say something aloud and it is perfectly recreated and reflected back to us, it is as if
• 44:58
  It's as if a void is being filled.
• 45:00
  That's right.
• 45:00
  Right.
• 45:01
  It is it is the experience of, know, I am an accelerated evolution coach.
• 45:06
  And one of the things that they are certified, one of the things that they examples that they gave us was like, if you really want sushi, if you have it in your mind that like you
• 45:17
  want it, you want sushi for lunch.
• 45:19
  The only thing that really satisfies that is getting sushi or.
• 45:24
  getting all the things that make up sushi.
• 45:25
  So maybe you get like sashimi instead or whatever is the fish you You wanted fish and rice.
• 45:32
  That can satisfy that.
• 45:33
  That can recreate it for you.
• 45:35
  Or the only third option is if your desire for sushi authentically moves towards something else.
• 45:42
  So you remember that tacos exist and suddenly the desire for sushi has disappeared and the desire for tacos is appeared, right?
• 45:49
  But coming back to this most simplest example,
• 45:52
  The thoughts and the feelings that occur inside of us represent in some ways a desire for sushi.
• 45:58
  Like, I hate this thing.
• 46:00
  What I really want is for someone else to get that I hate this thing.
• 46:02
  And maybe what I mean by hate is the way that it makes me feel, the way that it brings up my childhood, the impact that it has on my day or my work, the way that I feel like I
• 46:11
  can't escape my thoughts when you do them, right?
• 46:13
  But the only thing that's gonna satisfy that is getting it met in the real world.
• 46:18
  And because it's not a physical thing such as sushi where we can get it met by going on Grubhub, the only way that we can really get it met is by having someone else reflect it
• 46:27
  to us with such accuracy.
• 46:30
  And it doesn't mean reflecting, I heard you say that you hate this, right?
• 46:33
  But it means being gotten.
• 46:35
  When we're recreated with 100 % fidelity, it goes, pssh.
• 46:40
  The thing disappears.
• 46:41
  The desire for sushi is no more after we've eaten the sushi.
• 46:44
  And that may sound like a very silly example, but we're doing it all the time.
• 46:48
  That's right.
• 46:49
  Yeah.
• 46:49
  To me, we talked a little bit about this too.
• 46:51
  I think a great relationship is knowing and being known and loving and being loved.
• 46:55
  And I think this idea of really being gotten, really being known is profoundly.
• 47:01
  If you want to talk about an orgasm of sorts, that is an orgasm in and of itself, that that sensation of actually being gotten, right?
• 47:08
  It's, it's orgasmic.
• 47:10
  Right.
• 47:11
  My definition, my favorite definition there, there's no one scientific definition of orgasm, but my favorite is the pleasurable release of the buildup of tension.
• 47:19
  Okay.
• 47:19
  And when we think about not being known as tension and then suddenly being known is like a pleasurable release.
• 47:26
  Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 47:28
  You know, that's a really interesting thing.
• 47:33
  I've had an insight into the meaning of life actually recently.
• 47:37
  which was also happening in a really deep meditative state where I was really in touch with consciousness and it was just pure love.
• 47:45
  I don't know if you've had this experience, you probably have, but it's just like, my gosh, there's just pure love flowing, right?
• 47:51
  And I'm receiving, I'm contributing, I'm doing all these things with it.
• 47:55
  And it's like, my gosh.
• 47:56
  And then it was like, what does love love to do?
• 48:00
  Love loves to create, right?
• 48:02
  Since we have this unfolding.
• 48:04
  you know, multiverse of a universe itself, creating self perpetuating everything else.
• 48:08
  Right.
• 48:08
  So it's creation.
• 48:09
  Well, what's the feedback loop to consciousness?
• 48:12
  God, you know, with that, well, it's joy, it's joy.
• 48:16
  So it's love creating joy.
• 48:17
  And so for me, my purpose in life is from a loving place to create joy.
• 48:23
  Right.
• 48:24
  And so when I carry that into my relationships, right.
• 48:28
  It's like this is even this conversation.
• 48:30
  It's about from a loving place, creating joy and part of that.
• 48:34
  Joy is knowing and being known, Loving and being loved, caring, know, whatever you want to characterize it.
• 48:40
  But in that sense of creating that intimacy with the goal of creating joy and creating it together, what I learned about creation is that in creation, there is inherently tension
• 48:52
  and release.
• 48:53
  Inherently, right?
• 48:54
  Because if you're going to create something, you have a vision for it, which creates tension.
• 48:59
  And then as you work to resolve that,
• 49:02
  then it releases.
• 49:03
  And so it's just like in music, music is all about tension and release, all about tension and release, right?
• 49:08
  And so are stories, so are plays.
• 49:10
  So almost anything creative that we do is tension and release.
• 49:13
  Sexual activity is tension and release.
• 49:15
  That's why foreplay is so great because you're actually building tension and you can build up tension in multiple dimensions, right?
• 49:23
  That then the release becomes that much bigger, right?
• 49:25
  So it's really quite fascinating.
• 49:27
  And that's why sex and erotic exploration between two people can be such a shortcut to that experience of like universal love and consciousness.
• 49:34
  Right?
• 49:35
  Not everybody gets there.
• 49:36
  And so I don't want to place that as some kind of goal that we should all be aspiring to, but rather just name it as something that like when you bring mind, body, and soul into
• 49:44
  attunement with another person and you release judgment or expectations, like what is possible is to touch on the divine.
• 49:52
  I think that's the coolest thing about and you don't actually need another person.
• 49:55
  You can get there on your own.
• 49:56
  That's what I like that's what I was experiencing when I was like three and four years old, just messing around in my bathtub, you know, like an experience of the divine within
• 50:04
  us.
• 50:04
  And that is why sexual energy is creative energy.
• 50:07
  That's why that is what allows for new life to be created.
• 50:10
  It really is the most beautiful and profound.
• 50:13
  And again, maybe, maybe cheapest and most easeful example of a way that we can get to an experience of our own divinity.
• 50:22
  And the cool thing about that is that once we've touched on it, maybe in one area, whether that's like meditation or sexuality or something else, then we know that it exists and we
• 50:31
  find it, in my experience, it becomes an easier thing to get back to because I have had the imprint of that experience of pure love or pure consciousness.
• 50:41
  And just having touched on it one time affects the rest of our life, even if we never come back to it again.
• 50:48
  Yeah, it impacts us.
• 50:53
  yeah, it's really, it's quite beautiful.
• 50:54
  It also gives you, a little bit of a guide and inherent guide, understanding that there will be tension.
• 51:02
  The courageous conversations are about, you know, bringing tension into the relationship with a view of not creating distance, but with a view to creating joy and release.
• 51:15
  Right.
• 51:16
  And so that's the reason you have courageous conversations.
• 51:19
  It's alienate.
• 51:20
  Yeah.
• 51:21
  That's so profoundly stated because I think for many of us, the examples that we've had of tension have led to heartbreak, divorce, the splitting apart of our family, irreparable
• 51:31
  harm, damage.
• 51:32
  But if we allow ourselves to know that tension, I mean, it works with working out, exercise, right?
• 51:38
  We purposely put resistance and tension against our body to train it so that when we are moving throughout the world, we can do so with strength and flexibility and ease, right?
• 51:48
  We choose tension.
• 51:50
  and difficulty because it makes us better and stronger.
• 51:54
  That's right.
• 51:55
  And I think when it comes to relationships, we do ourselves such a disservice when we avoid conflict and we avoid tension because conflict and tension are some of the best ways
• 52:07
  that human beings get into closeness and closer relationship with each other.
• 52:12
  You know this, especially with your friendships, right?
• 52:15
  We have a different thing around our romantic partnerships, but
• 52:18
  You know that for those friendships that you've been able to navigate a difficult experience with, navigate a fight with, have conflict with, and come out the other side,
• 52:25
  those friendships are so much stronger.
• 52:27
  This is why the strength of our relationship with our families can be so strong because they're blood, because they're family.
• 52:33
  We can move through fights and tension, and we know that we're still going to be there on the other side of it.
• 52:37
  When we avoid tension in our relationship, and you know the more interesting thing is we have to get on it quickly.
• 52:45
  Speaking of having the courageous conversation,
• 52:47
  When we feel the conflict or the tension or we're moving in different directions or we're having the conversations by ourselves with ourselves and not externally with our partner,
• 52:55
  the quicker that we can get to that and name it, the more that we can take advantage of the healthy tension and conflict that can exist, that can cause us to grow, that can allow
• 53:04
  us to form a new way of being in the relationship that has us get more of what we want in the world.
• 53:09
  If we let it go for years or decades, that ends up being like a toxic amount of tension.
• 53:16
  that we're experiencing.
• 53:17
  And when we finally go to break that tension, the conflict can feel very explosive.
• 53:22
  And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to bring in a professional, a coach or a therapist because that tension is great or because you lack the conversational skills
• 53:32
  that create safety in the environment, or you find yourself talking past each other and having that same conversation over and over and over again, there is no shame in bringing
• 53:40
  in an expert just the same way that you would bring in a nutritionist or a personal trainer or a physician.
• 53:46
  because they've studied this thing and they know a lot about it and they can see you and what's going on with you more clearly and help you get the results that you're looking for
• 53:54
  faster.
• 53:55
  Yeah, no, I think that's right.
• 53:56
  I think when tension builds like that and and it's not brought forward, it ultimately leads to resentment and resentment is really kind of like the acid in the garden of a
• 54:07
  relationship.
• 54:08
  Once you start resenting that person, it's very hard to get back from that.
• 54:12
  That's that is a that is a
• 54:14
  long, difficult road to get back to not resent that person.
• 54:18
  if you're feeling as you're listening to this, if you're feeling there are some points of tension, know, the first conversation is to develop the conversation about how are we
• 54:28
  going to have this conversation, these conversations, right.
• 54:30
  And from there, it's like stepping into those conversations because what you'll find is that you really avoid resentment altogether because
• 54:38
  you're building intimacy because in that tension and release, you're actually building joy and intimacy as you go forward with this, right?
• 54:44
  And that's really kind of the idea.
• 54:46
  yeah, very And you're building flexibility into your relationship, right?
• 54:50
  Relationships break when they become stiff and inflexible.
• 54:53
  And that doesn't mean that you won't have boundaries.
• 54:56
  Of course, you're to have boundaries.
• 54:57
  There's going to be things that are unworkable for you.
• 55:00
  But if you can approach it from a place of, and I think this is a key piece that I want people to take away from this conversation.
• 55:06
  and we haven't touched on it so directly, but I'll name it now.
• 55:10
  If you get that you can receive any communication and survive, you can go into any conversation with anyone, especially a spouse or a partner, and you can hear them knowing
• 55:25
  that you are resilient and whatever they say, you can be with.
• 55:30
  Too many of us, there are so many.
• 55:34
  things that we have told ourselves we cannot be with.
• 55:38
  If he says that, if she says this, if he tells me he wants to, you know, experience that with somebody else or whatever it is, like I would die, I cannot be with that.
• 55:48
  The thing is that you can.
• 55:51
  You can be with everything until you take your last breath.
• 55:54
  You have been with everything.
• 55:56
  I guarantee you have heard things said to you before that you thought you wouldn't be able to survive and you have.
• 56:03
  Right?
• 56:03
  So if you can get that you can be with literally anything and it will not break you or end you.
• 56:09
  It's not to say that it won't hurt.
• 56:10
  It's not to say that it won't cause trauma.
• 56:12
  But we've learned already that you can heal from that.
• 56:14
  Right.
• 56:16
  Then you will stop wasting, just squandering your life force energy on repressing yourself and resenting the people around you.
• 56:27
  Yeah.
• 56:28
  Yeah, I agree with that.
• 56:29
  I agree with that.
• 56:31
  You know, I, I, I
• 56:32
  I tend to think that when people get together, particularly, well, it can be in friendships, but I think many times in a romantic relationship, people get together and
• 56:42
  they there's a spark between them of some sort.
• 56:45
  There's a connection between them.
• 56:47
  There's resonance around, you know, could be a number of different things.
• 56:52
  And so they step into a relationship, let's say.
• 56:56
  And I think.
• 56:58
  Unspoken or spoken.
• 57:00
  there's a sense of we're feeling this way between us and the relationship will be good if we can maintain this feeling, right?
• 57:10
  If we can just maintain this feeling.
• 57:13
  And I think that does a huge disservice to the tension and release elements of creativity.
• 57:21
  What you're really, you're not trying to maintain a relationship, you're trying to create a relationship.
• 57:25
  You're trying to create an ever expanding relationship.
• 57:28
  that takes you places that you didn't know you could go together.
• 57:32
  And so I think it's so important if you're in a relationship and you're listening to this and you came into it and you're feeling a particular way, but now you're not feeling that
• 57:40
  way, realize that that's actually great feedback.
• 57:42
  It's like, oh, it's time for us to level up and start having these courageous conversations so we can recreate, we can reinvent, we can plow under what happened
• 57:50
  yesterday and use that as fodder to create what's going to happen today, right?
• 57:55
  I think that's kind of a cool thing too.
• 57:58
  between the way that we want to feel and the way that we do feel.
• 58:01
  Let that be tension.
• 58:03
  You know, thinking about the relationship between ambiguity and tension and release.
• 58:07
  Yeah.
• 58:07
  Right?
• 58:08
  And that one of the maybe most difficult to be with aspects of tension is ambiguity because in those moments we're like, I don't feel the way that I used to feel or the way
• 58:18
  that I wanted to feel or the way that I expected that I was going to feel right now.
• 58:22
  There can be ambiguity about what's causing that.
• 58:25
  or the future of the relationship or, know, and that stuff can contribute to a form of tension that doesn't feel safe.
• 58:38
  And so when we can experience tension while also minimizing ambiguity, and one of the ways that we do that or that we've evolved to do that in our current world is to commit, right?
• 58:52
  To say that no matter what
• 58:54
  this tension causes us, we're in this relationship, right?
• 58:59
  That reduces the amount of ambiguity that we're living with inside of the tent.
• 59:05
  If we can allow ourselves to be with, again, all of these things that cause us discomfort for the service of understanding that we're constantly getting better, we are constantly
• 59:17
  growing, we are...
• 59:19
  You know, it helps especially I think for me when I look at all of the things that I have learned from previous relationships, when I look at the sum of all of the work that I have
• 59:28
  done to have the relationships that I have in my life and go, you know what, like that was only the source of me moving through ambiguity of me moving through tension of me having
• 59:37
  those courageous conversations where I am today.
• 59:39
  It may not be perfect.
• 59:40
  It may not be where we expected we were going to be.
• 59:43
  But we got here as a result of learning and growing.
• 59:46
  We're still learning and growing.
• 59:47
  will always be learning and growing.
• 59:49
  Relationships will always be a beautiful source of reflection of where else there is to grow.
• 59:55
  We're never going to be done completely baked, completely cooked like we did all the relating there was to relate.
• 1:00:01
  Right.
• 1:00:02
  That's not what we signed up for.
• 1:00:05
  No, I think that's I think that's really well said.
• 1:00:08
  You you introduced an idea of commitment or committed relationships, right?
• 1:00:13
  And I think that's a
• 1:00:14
  That's another interesting piece.
• 1:00:18
  You know, I think having a committed relationship where you're committing to this person and it's not necessarily the exclusion of everybody else in your life necessarily, but you
• 1:00:30
  have a committed relationship.
• 1:00:33
  Then.
• 1:00:35
  You know, there is a sense of safety that comes with that.
• 1:00:38
  It's like, no, if, if, if we get sideways, you know, we're committed to working this through to.
• 1:00:44
  remove the ambiguity to from a loving place, recreate joy here and continue to move forward.
• 1:00:49
  Right.
• 1:00:50
  Talk to us a little bit about your take on commitment.
• 1:00:53
  Because that's an interesting piece.
• 1:00:56
  And I think, you know, there's lots of there can be ambiguity for people around commitment.
• 1:01:01
  Right.
• 1:01:02
  So you want to maybe come on.
• 1:01:04
  Absolutely.
• 1:01:04
  I have I have a lot of thoughts on this.
• 1:01:08
  When I say commitment, let me clarify what it is that I mean by that.
• 1:01:12
  because I don't necessarily mean like legally married.
• 1:01:16
  There are plenty of people who are married to each other and are not committed at all to their relationship.
• 1:01:20
  100%.
• 1:01:21
  And there are plenty of people who are very deeply committed to their relationship and are not married or have never been.
• 1:01:27
  For me, I went through a divorce two years ago after being with my ex-husband for nine years.
• 1:01:33
  And we were very deeply committed to being in a relationship to each other, almost to the point of our collective detriment.
• 1:01:41
  we were committed to being married, even though we were no longer in a workable relationship together.
• 1:01:47
  And so what we have done that I'm incredibly proud of today, and I didn't think this was gonna be possible.
• 1:01:53
  If you'd asked me two years ago or a year and a half ago, I would have been like, we're never gonna have that.
• 1:01:58
  Because I don't know how we would get there.
• 1:02:00
  But the truth is we remain in commit, we're still committed to having a relationship to each other.
• 1:02:05
  We're no longer committed to that relationship being married.
• 1:02:10
  You we have to dissolve the legal relationship between us in order for us to have the kind of commitment to each other that actually worked for us today.
• 1:02:18
  And the way that we commit to each other today is we were great business partners.
• 1:02:21
  We were good friends.
• 1:02:23
  We made each other laugh.
• 1:02:23
  So those are the things that we do.
• 1:02:25
  I remain committed to his well-being, his happiness, his joy, and he committed to mine.
• 1:02:30
  So the commitment isn't the marriage.
• 1:02:31
  That's right.
• 1:02:32
  The commitment is the spiritual, emotional, mental.
• 1:02:37
  investment and the integrity that you have to that investment.
• 1:02:41
  I had to release the commitment to being married to him to actually serve my spiritual investment and integrity to this person and to myself.
• 1:02:49
  Right.
• 1:02:49
  And so when I say commitment, what I mean is in order for us to co-create the safety that is necessary to have some of these courageous conversations to really allow ourselves to
• 1:02:58
  be, to see and be seen.
• 1:03:01
  When we know that we have a commitment, when we're clear on what our commitment is to each other, anything.
• 1:03:06
  this is something that we sort of skip over.
• 1:03:08
  We do it in business.
• 1:03:10
  We'll do it in fitness and wellness.
• 1:03:14
  I can set a goal for myself.
• 1:03:15
  I get into yoga and my intention is to be present or to be focused or whatever.
• 1:03:19
  But when in our romantic relationships, do we ever lay down our intentions for our partner?
• 1:03:26
  Or my intention for how I'm going to be in partnership with you is ease and flow and joy and depth.
• 1:03:36
  Right?
• 1:03:37
  We're doing this on a subconscious level and sometimes we're even doing it consciously to ourselves.
• 1:03:40
  We're not actually speaking it aloud to another person.
• 1:03:44
  And when we name our intentions, our commitments, what I'm here for, we create an environment where that person knows where the boundaries are, where they can push all the
• 1:03:53
  way to, and they no longer have to play small or hide the parts of themselves that they think are unacceptable.
• 1:03:59
  Another great example of this is, and this doesn't mean like being boundaryless, but
• 1:04:04
  If I know where your absolute edges are, the conditions, if you will, for being in a relationship with you, I think the best example that I can give you is maybe a little bit
• 1:04:15
  too intensive an example, but it certainly paints a picture, is the distinction between monogamy and non-monogamy.
• 1:04:22
  Right?
• 1:04:22
  I have done both.
• 1:04:24
  If I'm talking to someone for whom non-monogamy is not an option, that's the edge of their boundary.
• 1:04:32
  They're like, if you need to have multiple partners, I can't be in partnership with you.
• 1:04:35
  That's where my commitment to being in partnership with you or being in marriage with you or whatever, that's where it ends.
• 1:04:42
  Here are my intentions for you.
• 1:04:45
  I know, and it takes, you know, conversations to get to, because we all define monogamy differently too.
• 1:04:51
  That's the trick of monogamous relationships is that people don't actually define what they think is cheating or what they think is non-monogamy.
• 1:04:58
  Right?
• 1:04:58
  So then something happens and they're like, you obviously aren't allowed to do that.
• 1:05:01
  We're monogamous.
• 1:05:02
  And they're like, but I didn't do anything physical.
• 1:05:04
  It was just emotional.
• 1:05:05
  Right?
• 1:05:05
  So just to get back to the point that I'm trying to make, the more that we can communicate about what we desire from a relationship, our commitment to that relationship, the
• 1:05:15
  boundaries that we have that would cause us to have to pull ourselves back from a relationship, we've set the playing field.
• 1:05:23
  We've cleared the field in which all of our conversations and our interactions and our physical and emotional intimacy is going to happen.
• 1:05:30
  And the more that we can set the parameters of that field, the more fully that we will be able to play and express ourselves in that space because we're not going to be worried
• 1:05:39
  about accidentally tripping over something or accidentally violating the boundary and then being left.
• 1:05:45
  And we're clear on what that person's intentions are for us.
• 1:05:48
  Right now I'm free to be me because I know
• 1:05:53
  the landscape, I know the environment that we're working in.
• 1:05:55
  Yeah, I think I agree with that.
• 1:05:58
  And I think it's really I think it's really important to have those conversations with your partner.
• 1:06:03
  Right.
• 1:06:04
  Or partners in that and that whatever the situation is to be able to actually to keep everybody on the same page and to check in with people and that sort of thing.
• 1:06:17
  Right.
• 1:06:17
  So it's it's it's a carrot.
• 1:06:19
  There's a caretaking element.
• 1:06:21
  to it, right?
• 1:06:21
  Part of the commitment is the caretaking of everybody, right?
• 1:06:25
  So that's a piece of it as well.
• 1:06:27
  But I agree that being able to outline what are the parameters, right?
• 1:06:33
  What are the boundaries?
• 1:06:34
  are the, you know, what are the I won't say the rules, but what are the, you know, what are the contracts that we're making here about how things go down or don't go down or
• 1:06:43
  whatever it is, right?
• 1:06:45
  Is it just leads to an integrity.
• 1:06:48
  And I think ultimately in any style of relationship or relationships, think having the integrity there becomes really, really important so that people can actually count on you
• 1:06:58
  or we can count on them or whatever it is.
• 1:07:01
  So, yeah.
• 1:07:01
  Yeah.
• 1:07:02
  And sometimes in the non-monogamy conversation, we can get to a place of like people being self-serving or being selfish.
• 1:07:11
  Right?
• 1:07:12
  I want all these things and I don't necessarily care about the impact of all of that on you.
• 1:07:15
  And that's not what I'm...
• 1:07:17
  referring to or pointing to.
• 1:07:19
  To your point, caretaking, getting that we have an impact on other people, really, whether that's monogamy or non-monogamy or whatever kind of relationship structure, even talking
• 1:07:30
  about non-romantic, non-sexual relationships, when we can be responsible for the impact that we have on other people.
• 1:07:37
  And what you were discussing earlier, being proactive about developing empathy.
• 1:07:44
  We got to get that empathy is not a skill that we're all taught.
• 1:07:49
  Women a little bit more so are kind of conditioned to put themselves in other people's shoes, but it can be in really unhealthy ways.
• 1:07:59
  Women are conditioned to empathize in ways that cause them harm, and at the same time, men can be conditioned not to experience empathy.
• 1:08:06
  But empathy and being willing to actively put ourselves in the other person's shoes is one of the ways I think that we can most easily access integrity.
• 1:08:15
  Because then we get, okay, the actions that I take, the things that I say or don't say, right?
• 1:08:20
  Coming back to the idea of the courageous conversation.
• 1:08:23
  if I don't tell my partner exactly how I feel and what I'm experiencing, then they actually can't love me.
• 1:08:31
  The way that I'm withholding this information is going to cause them harm.
• 1:08:35
  That's the impact.
• 1:08:36
  Yeah, right.
• 1:08:37
  Suddenly it becomes a lot easier to maintain integrity, I think, because we've got eyes on the entire situation.
• 1:08:44
  No, I think that's right.
• 1:08:45
  Yeah, it's it's always a work in progress.
• 1:08:48
  And that's the other thing.
• 1:08:49
  It's never static.
• 1:08:50
  It's never static.
• 1:08:52
  And that's part of the joy of constantly recreating the relationship, even in a committed, let's call it committed relationship.
• 1:09:00
  You're constantly recreating that relationship.
• 1:09:04
  And I think a lot of people just kind of start to take it for granted, right?
• 1:09:07
  They get into a relationship and then now they take each other for granted.
• 1:09:10
  And that's really a death knell, I think.
• 1:09:12
  Yes, you can be quote unquote married, but now you're just handcuffed together in your own mind, right?
• 1:09:17
  That's the inflexibility that I was referring to too.
• 1:09:20
  Exactly.
• 1:09:21
  It's stiff.
• 1:09:22
  Yeah.
• 1:09:23
  Yeah.
• 1:09:23
  Very cool.
• 1:09:25
  Well, it's a fascinating conversation.
• 1:09:27
  You've obviously covered a lot of territory in your own life and thought process around all this.
• 1:09:34
  What's on the horizon for you in all this?
• 1:09:36
  Are there cutting edge things that you're thinking about that you haven't shared with us yet or?
• 1:09:41
  Oh, that's a great question.
• 1:09:43
  Well, I am working on a book right now that's due to be out later in 2025, towards the end of 2025.
• 1:09:51
  And so I'm right now really more deeply codifying the way that I think about sex and relationships.
• 1:09:59
  we really touched a lot of those aspects here, which is
• 1:10:04
  It starts at the body, it moves up through the mind, through the emotions of the heart.
• 1:10:08
  It moves through the way that we are raised and conditioned.
• 1:10:11
  It moves through our familial structures.
• 1:10:13
  It moves through our relationship structures and it moves into our spirituality.
• 1:10:17
  And I think so much of the way that we think about sex and relationships, we hit on one, maybe two of those levels, but none of them exist.
• 1:10:25
  Nothing exists on one or two levels.
• 1:10:28
  Everything exists on every level.
• 1:10:30
  And the way that those levels interact and interplay with each other is
• 1:10:33
  truly probably the greatest indication of how we need to, how we get to.
• 1:10:40
  And so, that's, that's, I don't know that I would say that, that's what I'm playing with right now is like really putting into words in a way that I have not before exactly the
• 1:10:54
  way that I work with all of my clients and the way that I like to think about sex and sexuality when I'm educating on it on YouTube or on a stage somewhere.
• 1:11:03
  Beautiful.
• 1:11:04
  Yeah.
• 1:11:05
  Now it's a great approach.
• 1:11:06
  It's a very integrated approach.
• 1:11:08
  What you're doing is you're actually team people up to actually meet each other completely as a really good point boils down to.
• 1:11:16
  And I think the more points of contact you have between you, right?
• 1:11:22
  Body, mind, spirit, right?
• 1:11:23
  All of that.
• 1:11:24
  And you can kick around all the other things around it.
• 1:11:27
  And you can try on different hats.
• 1:11:28
  You can try on different
• 1:11:30
  You shoes.
• 1:11:30
  You can try anything you want to do, right?
• 1:11:33
  And as you start to play with all this and realize that you can have fun and be playful and yet still be caretaking each other in the process, my gosh, all of a sudden there's a
• 1:11:45
  world of joy out there to be had.
• 1:11:49
  Laughter, intimacy, joy, love, all of it.
• 1:11:53
  It's just sitting there, you know, and it's really, it's free to your point.
• 1:11:58
  It just takes time, attention, and some focus.
• 1:12:02
  It's free.
• 1:12:03
  It's pleasurable.
• 1:12:04
  Yeah.
• 1:12:05
  And you can take that model, yeah, in romantic relationships, sexual relationships, but all of your relationships, the more points in which you can attune to another person and
• 1:12:14
  be attuned to, the more pleasure that you'll have in life.
• 1:12:17
  That's right.
• 1:12:18
  Exactly.
• 1:12:18
  That's true across the board.
• 1:12:19
  Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:12:21
  Well, such a, such a pleasure having a chance to catch up with you, Caitlin V.
• 1:12:24
  I knew that we were going to have this conversation for the last couple of months.
• 1:12:27
  I think we were introduced by a common, acquaintance and, appreciate the introduction.
• 1:12:33
  So thank you.
• 1:12:34
  was such a pleasure to be here.
• 1:12:35
  Yeah.
• 1:12:36
  Thanks so much.
• 1:12:37
  Yeah.