Latest / Loud & Lifted / Burnout for High-Achieving Women: Why Your Old System Stops Working with Cherylanne Skolnicki

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Burnout for High-Achieving Women: Why Your Old System Stops Working with Cherylanne Skolnicki · Loud & Lifted

0:00
There's a point in life where being the woman
0:01
who can handle everything stops feeling like
0:04
a strength and starts feeling a little bit like
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a trap. You've built the career. You've managed
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the family. You're the person everyone relies
0:11
on. And somehow, instead of life getting easier
0:14
as you become more successful, it just keeps
0:16
getting more complicated. My guest today, Cheryl
0:19
Ann Skwinecki, calls this the peak of complexity.
0:23
That season when your ambition is still there,
0:26
but your available time, energy, and headspace
0:28
have basically disappeared. And this conversation
0:31
gets into why that happens, why we hold on to
0:34
so much, the guilt, judgment, FOMO, and control
0:38
that make letting go really hard, and what we
0:42
can actually start doing differently. We talk
0:45
about everything from boundaries and delegation
0:47
to the mental load at home, why I'll just do
0:50
it myself. is usually a terrible long -term strategy.
0:54
And one question I absolutely love, am I uniquely
0:57
qualified to do this? Let's get into it. Welcome
1:01
to Loud and Lifted, Cheryl Anne. Thank you so
1:03
much for being here. Thanks for having me. So
1:06
this is fun because I actually had the opportunity
1:09
to be on your podcast not that long ago, which
1:12
was awesome. So I'm glad that we're flipping
1:13
the mic or flipping the seats here and putting
1:16
you in the hot seat and getting to talk about
1:18
what you do. Because I love when I meet amazing
1:21
women and I find out that they're doing things
1:23
to support women. And you have been redefining
1:26
what it means for women to have it all when we're
1:29
in leadership. So first, I mean, that's a big
1:32
task, right? How did you even get into this?
1:35
Gosh, what a good question. I think for me, the
1:38
mission of redefining what it means to have it
1:40
all is really being a part of Gen X. I think
1:44
Gen X was flat out spoon fed this message that
1:49
we would have it all. We were the ones destined
1:51
to finally have it all. No one told us how we
1:54
were supposed to manage it once we had it. And
1:56
I think that's where the real problems came in.
1:59
So I do think it's a bit of generational perspective.
2:04
I'm not sure younger women today even aspire
2:08
to having it all. I think that they have a more
2:12
clear delineation of, you know, I want what I
2:17
want. And I think that's probably healthier,
2:19
like as as a starting point. But for our generation,
2:23
and you know, again, I'm squarely in X, we were
2:26
told we could have it and it really wasn't going
2:28
to work. I am also an ex and I 100 % agree with
2:33
that. It's like go to school, get the job, get
2:36
married, have the kids, keep climbing the corporate
2:39
ladder, keep raising your children and like it'll
2:42
all be fine. That's exactly what you wanted.
2:43
Right. It works to a certain point and then it
2:46
stops working. So we'll get into all of that
2:48
today about what is that inflection point. I,
2:51
my path to doing that work was that I was on
2:54
that trajectory. I came out of Cornell undergrad.
2:58
I went straight to work for Procter & Gamble.
3:01
I spent 15 years climbing the corporate ladder
3:03
there, very dutifully just advancing, you know,
3:07
survive in advance, right? That's kind of the
3:08
whole MO in a company like that. And it was working
3:11
really well. And I thought I would stay there
3:12
forever. And I thought I would reach, you know,
3:15
whatever my version of the C -suite was, whether
3:17
it was the literal version or in a company like
3:19
that, there's kind have lots of mini C suites
3:21
around the company. And I thought that was the
3:24
path. And I got off that ladder 15 years in,
3:28
and I've now spent 16 plus years doing this work.
3:31
So I kind of have a foot in each of the two worlds.
3:34
But my move out was really driven by it no longer
3:39
felt like the equation squared. The roles that
3:41
I was looking at ahead of me on the ladder, what
3:44
I was going to get in return and what I was going
3:45
to have to give to make it work just didn't feel
3:48
like that equation was squaring. And the biggest
3:50
thing that wasn't was I just didn't care enough
3:52
about what brand of laundry detergent people
3:57
ultimately used. It just didn't feel like the
4:01
biggest problem I wanted to solve. And so I thought,
4:04
well, if I'm going to work this hard, I really
4:06
want to solve a problem that I think makes a
4:07
meaningful dent in people's lives. And I've always
4:11
been passionate. I don't really know why, but
4:13
I've always been passionate about women and their
4:16
condition. And it felt like a place where I could
4:19
make a dent. So was there, I mean, you said,
4:22
because you decided you didn't care about what
4:23
kind of laundry detergent people are using, which
4:25
is hilarious. But was there something that happened?
4:28
Or was it just sort of like the accumulation
4:29
of events and like where you were at that? You
4:32
were like, this is death by a thousand cuts,
4:34
right? Just, yeah, I don't think there was, there
4:36
was no grand moment where I slammed my laptop
4:39
closed and said, that's it. In fact, I got this
4:42
itch, like the year that I left was 2009. And
4:45
I actually tried to resign in the summer and
4:47
I got talked into staying through the end of
4:50
the year to finish some things that I was working
4:52
on. And I really, during that time thought I
4:56
was going to leave an open and artisan bakery.
4:58
Like that was the first, I know it has nothing
5:00
to do with what I do. But here's why that makes
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sense. My life had become so big and so global
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and so 24 -7, right? I was running these big
5:10
brands, global teams, like it just was a nonstop
5:14
thing. And I think I was seeking, we're always
5:16
seeking balance, right? It just, as humans, that's
5:18
our, we want what we don't have. So I had this
5:21
like idea for a full retraction and to just a
5:24
passion -based business. And I live in kind of
5:27
a small town, a suburb of Cincinnati. And we
5:29
have this really cute little downtown area. And
5:32
I just could picture it like the big glass storefront
5:35
and this like barefoot Contessa style. bakery
5:38
and maybe some great chicken salad. Like I just
5:40
had the, I literally had a menu, I had pricing,
5:42
I had business plan. I looked at real estate.
5:45
Thank God it all fell through, right? I would
5:46
have been, I would have been satisfied with that
5:48
for about 10 minutes and then I would have gotten
5:50
bored. What my Godfather lovingly refers to as
5:53
my muffin store. Like this was, you know, what
5:55
were you really going to do? But I needed the
5:57
retraction. I think that was what was very clear
6:00
to me was I needed something I could wrap my
6:02
hands around, like serve people. Right. And somehow
6:07
when the real estate transaction did not work
6:10
out, I started thinking a little bit more broadly
6:13
about food and my first business that I launched
6:16
was in the food space. And then it had a coaching
6:19
component to it. Okay. And I promise this all
6:23
lines up and makes sense of how we got where
6:25
we are today. But I went from like, okay, Artisan
6:27
Bakery, it's not that. Really, it's in the food
6:29
space. I love food. I'm going to teach people
6:31
how to eat well and have food that tastes great
6:33
but is healthy. And then there was a coaching
6:36
component of that of, well, I can't just do it
6:38
for them. I'm going to teach them how to do it.
6:39
And when people start talking about their relationship
6:41
with Food Betsy, they start talking about their
6:43
lives. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, the
6:47
food is the thing they're using to manage this
6:51
unwieldy life. And we're never going to get this
6:55
relationship with food right until we get the
6:58
life right, right? And so they started asking
7:00
other questions and I was like, well, those are
7:02
much more interesting questions. And so that
7:04
started extending the realm of what coaching
7:07
was talking about. And eventually I just shut
7:09
down the food business and thought, okay, that's
7:11
what I'm going to do. I'm going to meet women
7:13
at what's not working in your life. And person
7:17
by person, it started like this pattern started
7:19
emerging of there really are themes of what's
7:21
not working. And if we can build a set of practices
7:23
to address those themes, you get a lot closer
7:26
to having it all, right? You get a lot closer
7:28
to at least being able to manage the parts of
7:29
it that you want. That's so funny how it doesn't
7:32
make sense when you start, but then you're really
7:34
seeing how it all ends up being connected. And
7:36
sometimes you end up a different way than you
7:38
thought. That's life. That's amazing. So through
7:40
the years that you've been doing this, what are
7:41
those themes that you continue to see over and
7:44
over again? Yeah. So I think the first thing
7:47
is related to the life cycle of a woman. If you
7:52
think about a professionally ambitious woman
7:54
who comes out of college, I map this onto what
7:58
I've started to call the complexity curve. And
8:01
it's shaped like a bell curve. And so at the
8:02
beginning of it, you have low complexity, really
8:05
high ambition, really low complexity. The world
8:07
is your oyster. You have a lot of time and energy
8:10
that you can devote to anything that you want.
8:12
I have a daughter in this stage of life. I'm
8:14
wildly jealous of her. Looks amazing, right?
8:17
Like you can do, she can go to Pilates. She can
8:19
run marathons. She can learn pottery, like whatever
8:22
she wants to do. And I think of that as the launch,
8:25
right? And then ambitious women quickly start,
8:29
that curve becomes vertical. And that's the climb.
8:31
And this is the yes and chapter of life where
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everything is additive, right? Yes, I will have
8:36
a husband. I will add a house. I would like a
8:38
child. Yes, another child, bigger job. Like,
8:40
yes, yes, yes, all the things. And the operating
8:43
system that we used in the launch actually works
8:46
during the climb. Like, you can continue to just
8:48
sort of run your life the same way. It's just
8:50
bigger. But there's a certain point where you
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cross this imaginary line and it just stops working.
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And we all know when we hit that line. I could
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ask you and I'm sure you're like, yep. It was
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right about here. This is when things started
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to just be like, this is not working anymore,
9:05
right? I don't have any time for myself. Key
9:09
relationships start to suffer. Our health often
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takes a hit. You know, we, our confidence takes
9:15
a hit because it's like, I do not have enough
9:17
of me to go around. And that phase is not short.
9:20
This peak complexity is kind of a long stage
9:23
of life. I think it starts about the time that
9:26
your family is complete. You're like, that's
9:29
about when I'm maxed out at like, it's not going
9:32
to get too much worse. But then sometimes you
9:34
add bigger jobs, so it gets like a little bit
9:37
worse. And you don't come out of it until I think
9:39
your oldest gets their driver's license. That's
9:42
when it starts to turn. Okay. So my kids are
9:44
a little older than you. Do you have one who's
9:46
my, how old are you? I'm 18 and 15. Okay. So
9:48
you've been through this. So don't you think
9:50
like once that first one gets the driver's license,
9:52
you're like, bing, there's the first little turn.
9:54
Maybe it's a hair easier. And then Eventually,
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of course, you know, the nest empties and we
10:00
get a lot of time back. And I think that is the
10:04
phase I've started thinking of as the relaunch,
10:06
like done well. This is a relaunch done poorly.
10:09
It's a midlife crisis. You just don't know who
10:10
you are after you've carried all this and you've
10:12
been so consumed with it and it starts to get
10:15
smaller, like who am I questions start to emerge.
10:19
And then eventually you get to what I call the
10:20
return, which is where we picture, you know,
10:22
maybe sitting on the front porch, reminiscing
10:24
about our life, reflecting on like the wisdom
10:27
that we've acquired, trying to pay forward some
10:29
of that wisdom. So I alighted at this idea that
10:33
like women in the peak were the ones who needed
10:36
help. climb don't know they need help yet. True.
10:39
And they would not accept it even if they did.
10:41
Right? This is the thing. I banged my head against
10:43
that wall for a while. But it's like, they're
10:44
like, I've got this. I don't know what your problem
10:46
is, right? Women in the peak are like, uh -oh,
10:51
something happened and I don't know what happened.
10:54
And what happened is the capacity curve is the
10:58
inverse of this complexity curve. So their discretionary
11:01
capacity went negative. Does that make sense
11:05
to you? Like there is no more available capacity.
11:07
It's all gone. It's all gone. So the only thing
11:10
that works is changing your operating system.
11:13
So that insight, like the setup for that is the
11:16
core thing that I think I've been trying to find
11:19
language for for like a long time. And what happens
11:22
is when you're in the peak, you need a different
11:24
set of I'm going to call it like an operating
11:28
system, different set of practices that you run
11:30
your life by. And the biggest thing is really
11:32
about what you will say yes to and what you will
11:34
say no to is no longer yes and yes and. You have
11:38
to start making some choices about what matters
11:40
the most or what matters right now or what am
11:43
I going to get to this week or how often am I
11:45
going to get to that thing? Like you don't really
11:47
have to give anything up entirely per se, but
11:50
you do have to grapple with cadence and frequency,
11:54
intensity, you know. No, it's so true. I've never
11:58
thought about it from that perspective, but you're
12:00
so right. During that climb, no one's helping
12:02
you. You're just in this fight or flight mode,
12:05
I guess, and you just keep fighting. Yeah, it's
12:07
fine. Everything's going to work out. You think
12:08
you're going to get to a certain point. Your
12:10
kids are going to get a certain age. Your job's
12:11
going to get to a certain point that you're high
12:13
enough that everything's going to become easier.
12:15
I think then you get there and you're like… Didn't
12:18
happen. Right. The mythical Sunday. Right. The
12:21
mythical Sunday becomes reality and you're like,
12:23
Oh my God, I'm still operating like this. And
12:25
like, I can't, I can't survive, right? Like it's
12:28
not sustainable. So when we hit that, what do
12:31
we, what do we do? How do you move? I mean, cause
12:33
there's no magic wand. There's no like one quick
12:35
conversation or one podcast episode, right? That's
12:38
going to help that. But what's, what are those
12:39
steps that we take? We're in that peak and we're,
12:41
someone's listening to us and they're like, Oh
12:42
my gosh, this is me. I've hit this peak. Now
12:44
what? So again, I break this down into a collection
12:49
of practices that we have to adopt that are different
12:53
than what the default was in the client. So we
12:55
won't get to all of them today, but let's talk
12:57
about one or two, right? One of them is like
12:59
you have to start treating your week like it's
13:01
your life in miniature. We get really hung up
13:05
on like annual plans and five -year plans and
13:07
10 -year plans But I think what we always have
13:09
in front of us is the week So so goes your week.
13:12
So goes your life, right? You're just gonna string
13:14
together a bunch of weeks I think it's kind of
13:16
the perfectly designed unit of time to think
13:18
about we don't get as overwhelmed if we just
13:20
have to do the next seven days so thinking about
13:23
the elements that you really want to protect
13:27
for and put in first. It's almost like an upside
13:29
down. Most of us were trained like if you think
13:33
about how we're trained as kids, our parents
13:38
tell us like you can go play when your homework's
13:42
done or you can go play when your room is cleaned
13:45
up. right? Or you can have free time when you've
13:47
done your chores. There's this sense of like,
13:49
you work first, and then whatever is leftover,
13:52
then that's yours until you get to the part of
13:55
your life where there's nothing left over, right?
13:57
So all of a sudden we're like, wait, I was taught
13:59
this system where I only get to have things for
14:03
me when everything else is done and it's never
14:05
done. Right. So The idea of saying like, how
14:11
are you gonna construct like an upside down or
14:13
an inverted week is to say those things are gonna
14:14
have to go in first. You're gonna have to put
14:17
those non -negotiable activities that keep you
14:21
feeling healthy and whole and human into your
14:24
week first at a cadence that you actually can
14:27
sustain. And that will have to be the forcing
14:29
function to keep work in its natural place. If
14:32
you do not make that inversion, you will be tired
14:35
for the rest of your life, or at least until
14:36
you exit the peak, right? Because work is an
14:39
insatiable beast. It will always take as much
14:41
of it, as much of us as we are willing to give
14:43
it. Kids are insatiable little beasts, too. They'll
14:45
take as much as we'll give them. Husbands are.
14:48
Yeah. They'll just take and take and take and
14:50
take. And then, you know, of course, we're all
14:51
good humans who want to be like involved in our
14:53
communities and volunteer and be on boards and
14:55
those things all take They take the four reserves
15:00
that we have to play with. They take time and
15:03
energy and headspace and emotional bandwidth.
15:07
That's what we've got. We make our life out of
15:09
those four resources. Maybe money, I'm arguing
15:12
like maybe money is a fifth reserve because you
15:14
can throw money at some problems. We're really
15:16
looking at those resources and saying, do I have
15:18
enough of them to go around? And so when you're
15:21
designing a week that really works for you, you
15:23
have to be able to make sure that these most
15:26
important things to you that keep you really
15:28
solid, like foundationally, go in first. And
15:31
I think that's a shift that does not get made
15:33
until you're in the peak. That makes sense. And
15:35
I think, too, it's so easy to get so focused
15:38
on work and life that you forget the self piece
15:41
of that, right? So to your point, if I'm giving
15:44
100, well, not even 100%. more than 50 % to work
15:47
and then life, but then it's like, oh wait, what
15:49
about me over here? Like I've totally maxed out
15:51
my week and now there's no time for the self
15:53
piece, which I always say is important. If you
15:55
reframe the word life to be others, it gets very
15:58
clean, right? Because we're all taught about
16:00
like work -life balance, but if you think about
16:02
work and other people's needs or priorities,
16:06
then that's where self becomes a very obvious
16:08
like outlier. So it's like the people at work
16:09
who need things, the people outside of work who
16:12
need things. And now there's like, okay, what
16:15
do I need? Right. To just, I get one life. What
16:20
do I want out of it? You know, everybody loves
16:21
that Mary Oliver quote about your one wild and
16:24
precious life because it's so deeply resonant
16:26
that, yeah, we only get one. And am I really
16:29
going to give all of it to laundry detergent?
16:34
Or whatever your laundry detergent is, right?
16:37
It just becomes so clear of like, oh, that is
16:40
not going to work. Right. And then you become
16:43
the default person for everyone and everything,
16:46
right? So then how, so if we find ourselves,
16:49
many people I'm sure who hear this, find themselves
16:51
in that, what do we? We've identified the problem.
16:54
Great. That's probably number one. But what do
16:56
we do? How do we start to peel that back? Because
17:00
I think what happens is because we become that
17:02
default person, whether it's at work or in life
17:04
or others, it's hard to start pulling back or
17:07
having boundaries when everyone's like, what
17:09
do you mean? She always does this. Of course
17:12
she's going to finish this project. Why do you
17:15
think it's hard? Dance with me. I agree that
17:17
it's hard. I agree. I'm not challenging it. But
17:19
for you, why is it hard? people pleasing and
17:23
guilt play into that, right? Like where you don't
17:26
want to let somebody down. And again, professionally
17:28
or personally, I've been in that situation on
17:30
both ends where it's like, well, you don't want
17:31
to let someone down or you raise your hand to
17:33
pick up one more thing. Like, I'll make the cookies
17:35
for the bake sale because nobody else can do
17:36
it. Or you think somebody else can't do it, right?
17:38
So it's that whole, maybe you don't have the
17:41
delegation or the support or the guts, the courage
17:46
to be like, no. And that's, I think, probably
17:49
the biggest struggle. What I hear you naming
17:53
is a bunch of emotions, right? There's there
17:56
are there is emotional friction that comes up
17:59
when we think about doing this differently often
18:01
letting go of something like what who is gonna
18:03
do it if it's not me So I heard you name several.
18:06
I always say there's like a big four, right?
18:09
So let's pressure test these so guilt is one
18:12
FOMO Oh, yeah. I want to be the one who got to
18:16
go on the field trip. And I don't want to miss
18:18
that experience. Judgment, what will other people
18:22
think of me not doing this thing anymore? Are
18:25
they going to think I'm not good enough? I'm
18:27
not committed enough? I'm not a good mom? What
18:30
is the kind of external judgment that's going
18:33
to come my way? And then loss of control, which
18:36
you described, right? So when people say I'm
18:37
not going to delegating, what they mean is I
18:39
like control. And so, and I do too, this is my
18:43
hardest one. And so if we look at why are we
18:46
holding on to so much, it's almost always one
18:50
of those emotions. Sure. Right? Totally agree
18:52
with that one. Learning to dance with those emotions
18:55
is a huge part of what I end up doing in coaching.
18:57
What are we gonna do about all of these feelings
18:59
that follow us around everywhere? Because we
19:01
treat them like they're a roadblock. We're like,
19:04
okay, I'm going down the street, I gotta do this
19:06
thing. Shit, there's this road, I can't do it.
19:08
It's like a stop sign, right? But I use this
19:11
metaphor of, can you turn it into a speed bump?
19:13
There will always be some friction to making
19:16
the decision. But until you actually practice
19:18
making it, try it, run an experiment, see what
19:21
happens, you won't learn that it's survivable.
19:24
That's very true. So you're right. When we build
19:26
these lives where we are mission critical, it
19:28
actually feels really good to be the one who's
19:31
so needed, who's central to everything. I'm so
19:35
important in the life of my family, in the life
19:37
of my company. What would they do without me?
19:41
That's like security to our identity. Sure. And
19:44
so we really start to dance with those questions
19:46
because go back to those early stages of the
19:49
launch and the climb. Think about how much identity
19:52
is wrapped up in being the one who can do it.
19:55
Right. Oh yeah and proving to people that you
19:57
can do it and I think about that especially probably
19:59
more when my kids were younger and I was still
20:01
in the climb piece of that but it's like you
20:03
wanted to prove that well I can be a working
20:04
mom I can bust my ass at work I'll stay late
20:07
I'll go to the happy hour I'll do all those events
20:09
outside of normal hours while my kids are at
20:11
home with my husband you know after they've been
20:13
in daycare all day so you try to do all that
20:16
and then on the flip side of that I would volunteer
20:18
for all the PTA stuff because I was like well
20:20
I'm not going to be that working mom who doesn't
20:22
show up to anything so here I am with all these
20:24
stay at home Hello moms. And here I am like panicking
20:27
because I'm missing an important meeting, right?
20:29
So it was like this whole, I guess judgment,
20:31
you're right. I'm thinking proving myself, but
20:33
it was the judgment of like, no, I got this.
20:35
I can do all of these things. There are two sides
20:37
of the same coin. So when you say I'm proving
20:39
myself why, so that I'm not judged for not being
20:42
enough in either of these two worlds, right?
20:44
I want to be as good as the most devoted moms
20:48
and I want to be as good as the most devoted
20:50
employees. Yep. And there's no kind of middle
20:53
ground that's carved out in that. So, you know,
20:56
you're asking good questions like, well, what
20:58
do people do? It's not a quick fix. I don't sell
21:01
quick fixes, right? Darn, that would be so amazing.
21:05
You'd be a billionaire. I think that there is
21:09
a reckoning with the expectations that we have
21:14
accepted. Expectations got set by someone, by
21:18
our parents, by our educators, by society at
21:21
large, by our early work experiences, by our
21:24
families. We're like, we have this collection
21:26
of expectations, we've set some for ourselves,
21:28
and we're crushed under the weight of those expectations.
21:31
So it's a reckoning with those expectations to
21:34
say, how am I going to really question these
21:38
invisible rules that are governing my choices
21:41
and rewrite them in a way that's really right
21:44
for me, that I can lay my head on that pillow
21:47
every night and go like, yeah, I feel deeply
21:49
fulfilled. I feel a sense of peace with like
21:52
the choices I've made. That's not quick work.
21:55
Right. It's like it's a process that involves
21:58
really collaborative thinking to rewrite those
22:02
in a way that you have a lot of freedom on the
22:04
other side. Well, that's so true. And it goes
22:07
back to what you said earlier, where it's deciding
22:09
in the week, like you don't have to make a five
22:11
year plan. It's starting with let's start with
22:14
next week, right? This is next week and what's
22:17
important and what are the priorities and kind
22:18
of backing into it from there or backing in building.
22:22
I don't know, backing in and building, right?
22:24
Like you're starting there from the week and
22:25
it's building into that of where you're spending,
22:27
where you're making time, where you're not going
22:28
to spend time. What can you delegate? What can
22:31
go away? And again, it goes back to, I think
22:34
I always joke that I was always pretty good professionally
22:37
delegating, but I was not good delegating personally.
22:40
And it goes back to the control piece of like,
22:41
well, I have to I care more. I can do it all
22:45
and I'm going to have everything perfect in its
22:47
place. I've mentioned this before in other podcasts,
22:50
like when I was traveling a lot, I would have
22:52
everything figured out for the whole freaking
22:53
week for my family. My husband's like, why are
22:56
you doing this? We can survive. It might have
22:58
been on McDonald's, but who gives a shit, right?
23:00
It was sort of. Again, if you break down why,
23:02
and I don't know why it was for you, but clients,
23:04
I've had people who are like, because I will
23:07
not compromise the standard at which I would
23:09
do it. And I know he wouldn't do it that way.
23:11
So we are going to have my standard upheld even
23:14
in my absence, right? I haven't found anyone
23:16
yet at home who will uphold my standard. So I'm
23:19
going to overmanage it. And that was just really
23:21
like a trust issue, right? Like I don't trust
23:23
that anyone will do this my way if I'm not there.
23:26
And some people, it's like, my identity is so
23:28
wrapped up in being the person who does that
23:30
that I cannot lay that down because I feel like
23:32
a failure. Yeah. Like the guilt that I feel over
23:35
not being the one who chose the lunch they're
23:38
having on Wednesday. even though I'm going to
23:40
be in Idaho. It's like, I just can't lay that
23:43
down. And so we get this really grippy energy
23:46
around it. That's so true. Yeah, it's just so
23:48
true. That's so true. How do boundaries play
23:52
into all this? How do you manage, deal, set,
23:55
have conversations with women around boundaries?
23:57
I mean, they're central. I think that a lot of
23:59
people misdefine the word boundary or what a
24:02
boundary is. Here's my definition. I can't remember
24:06
who taught me this. somebody who was probably
24:08
a guest on my podcast, I heard this from and
24:10
I'm like, this is it. It's a boundary has to
24:12
be something that requires no one else's participation.
24:16
So for you to hold a boundary, you have to be
24:19
able to execute that boundary with no one else's
24:21
participation. So for example, let's use an example
24:25
of like your child is speaking to you disrespectfully
24:27
and you're like, you can't talk to me like that.
24:30
I'm going to hold that boundary or your husband
24:32
or your mother -in -law, somebody is talking
24:33
to you, right? That is not a boundary. The boundary
24:37
is saying, I will not stay in this room while
24:39
you are speaking to me this way. And then exiting
24:41
the room. That's a boundary. Because I am fully
24:45
in control. Will I or will I not stay in the
24:47
room? Will I or will I not stay in the conversation?
24:51
So boundaries have to be behaviors that we can
24:55
execute without anyone else's participation,
24:58
buy -in, agreement. I get to hold the boundary.
25:01
Isn't that kind of a radical idea? I like that
25:03
a lot. I mean, it just changes everything. That's
25:06
great. So when you ask how do boundaries hold
25:08
in, okay, let's say I will not take meetings
25:12
after five o 'clock. Just make that one. That's
25:14
what a lot of people would love to hold, right?
25:16
What that means is if you schedule a meeting
25:18
with me after five, I will not be there. Now,
25:21
there might be a consequence to my behavior.
25:23
I might get fired. I might not be top rated.
25:25
You might be frustrated with me. You might talk
25:28
about me to somebody else like, I can't believe
25:29
she won't go to this meeting after five. It was
25:31
such an important time for the company. But if
25:33
you're going to hold that boundary of I don't
25:35
do meetings after five, no one else can hold
25:37
it for you. They can schedule. They can do whatever
25:40
they want to schedule. Your boundary is I will
25:43
not attend. That makes total sense. I love that.
25:47
But really hard to execute. What we want is we
25:50
want everybody else to uphold our boundary for
25:52
us so it's so easy and there's no emotional friction.
25:55
So when we say, I won't do meetings after five,
25:57
what we mean is I want no one to schedule meetings
25:59
after five so that it's very easy for me to hold
26:01
this principle I've set. But that's not how the
26:04
world works. Right. So boundaries are all over
26:07
my work. We talk about them every day because
26:10
so much of it is finding that internal fortitude
26:13
to say, I'm going to have some conflict because
26:14
of my boundaries. How am I going to manage that
26:17
conflict? How am I going to manage it? So boundaries,
26:20
delegation, support. When you're going through
26:24
this with women, does anyone ever feel like they're
26:27
like, well, I don't want to lower my standards.
26:28
I don't want to delegate. I don't want to have
26:30
that because I feel like I'm not. So how do we
26:32
get over that? Because it's not. lowering your
26:35
standards. How do you get through that? So you
26:37
mean they don't want to lower the standard on
26:39
the output, right? Like they're like, no, I want
26:40
the output to stay as good as if I had done it
26:43
myself. Yeah. So it's such a simple answer. You
26:46
might roll your eyes at it. It's just hiring
26:48
really well. Yeah. Whether that's at work or
26:51
at home. So housekeepers, classic example, right?
26:53
People are like, I mean, trust me, when I tell
26:55
you I am like a neat freak, I mean, I want my
26:57
house to look like a magazine shoot could happen
26:59
at any moment. And like, that's what I want.
27:02
So We had a housekeeping team, this husband and
27:06
wife who were so wonderful for a number of years.
27:09
And I think to have a great housekeeper, you
27:13
have to be willing to say, this is the standard,
27:17
right? This is my standard. And if they can't
27:19
meet that standard, then they can't stay in that
27:21
job. And I think what happens to a lot of us
27:24
is we're like, well, no one's ever going to meet
27:26
my standard. That's our default assumption. So
27:27
we're like, is it good enough? Am I willing to
27:30
clean up after the housekeeper? Am I willing
27:32
to redo? Like, you should not have to do that.
27:34
Yeah. Let's just talk about getting results through
27:36
others, like come up a level to getting results
27:38
through others. You might delegate to somebody
27:41
who you don't pay anything to. That could be
27:42
your kid, your spouse, your mom, or you might
27:46
outsource, like, I'm going to pay someone to
27:48
do this task. So delegation, where you're kind
27:51
of getting it for free, it's more about how are
27:53
we sharing work in this ecosystem, right, whether
27:57
that's at work or at home. Because on teams,
27:59
if you already have the team, It's delegation.
28:02
You're not paying incrementally to get that work
28:04
done. You're just assigning it to a different
28:05
human. So much of it is about learning how to
28:09
really paint a picture of what does high quality
28:12
look like. Paint done is Brene Brown's term.
28:14
I love that term. Can you give them a crisp vision
28:17
of what we're steering toward? What success looks
28:20
like? What your standard is? And then they're
28:22
not done until they get there. Right. And can
28:24
you hold the tension of giving the feedback to
28:27
say, it's not good enough yet? Try again. Here's
28:31
where it's at a gap from the standard we talked
28:33
about. You got to do it again. That is so hard
28:35
because of the emotional exchange behind it,
28:39
whether it's, again, a spouse, a mother, a kid,
28:42
somebody who works for you, but that's the answer
28:45
to not lowering the standard. That's the answer.
28:46
Yeah. Right. It's how do you train them? And
28:49
not to just like, fine, I'll do it myself. It's
28:50
just easier, right? I've heard so many people
28:52
say that. I didn't have someone else do this.
28:54
I didn't delegate because it's just easier if
28:56
I do it myself. It's always easier one time.
28:59
If you have a task that is a one -time task,
29:02
it will always be easier to do it yourself because
29:04
it's true that it takes time to give direction
29:07
and course correct and give feedback and whatever.
29:09
But if it is a task that is going to be done
29:11
more than once, those dividends get paid over
29:14
time. And so I think that's always my line in
29:16
the sand. Like a one -time task, I might be like,
29:18
I'll just do it. I've got a project. It's in
29:20
my head. I kind of know what I want. But if it's
29:22
something that we're going to do regularly, I'm
29:24
going to build a process that you can follow.
29:26
Yeah. And hold them accountable, right? And I
29:28
think about that especially now. I have teenagers,
29:30
right? Now it's like I'll do things for them
29:32
because I just don't feel like arguing with them.
29:34
I don't feel like them doing it half -assed.
29:35
And then my husband's like, oh, you're teaching
29:37
them bad habits, which he's right. They know
29:39
they'll just do it half -assed and then… Weaponized
29:42
incompetence. I have a daughter who's masterful
29:45
at this. Weaponized incompetence. I will suck
29:48
at this so much that you'll never ask me again.
29:50
Yeah. 100%. It's so tragic. But think about…
29:54
What were tall again i do think there's a time
29:56
where you just call it and you're like this is
29:58
not worth the emotional pain of continuing to
30:01
ask this person to do this thing that they're
30:03
clearly not gonna they're not willing to learn
30:05
to do it. If you're in a paid environment that
30:09
is grounds for dismissal. Just think about that.
30:12
Whether they are your lawn guy or your nail tech
30:16
or the person who cut your hair or the person
30:18
who cleaned your house, it's like if you can't
30:20
do this the way I want it done, I'm going to
30:22
find somebody else who can. Yeah, that's fair.
30:27
If you're an employee at work and you can't get
30:30
to the standard, we're going to have to agree
30:32
that you're either unwilling or unable and you're
30:34
probably not in the right job. Okay. So I sound
30:37
like I'm being a hard ass about it, but I think
30:40
it really is true that our tolerance for that
30:43
is what keeps us in the seat of like we're playing
30:46
cleanup for everybody else's inability. Now there's
30:48
one exception, Betsy. You might like this one.
30:51
So my husband and I have very different standards
30:53
for most things in life. I say that kindly, but
30:57
I have much more exacting. Okay. So we really
31:01
have had to adopt sort of task splitting. And
31:05
the example I've told before on podcast is like
31:08
making the bed, right? It's kind of classic women
31:10
like a lot of pillows and they have to go a certain
31:12
way and whatever. I just, I have been married
31:14
for 26 years. He is never going to do this right.
31:17
He doesn't want to, he doesn't care enough, right?
31:20
So my choices are like, he does nothing and I
31:24
do all of it or he gets it as far as he can or
31:28
that he's willing to and I do the last like 20%.
31:31
Okay. And that's where we've landed. bedmaking
31:33
and lots of other things in our life where it's
31:35
like, he's going to take a big swing at it and
31:38
it's going to be close, but not quite. And then
31:42
I'm going to have a lot less time invested in
31:45
doing that final zhuzh, right? Okay. I think
31:48
that's a fair split. I think it works at work.
31:51
That makes sense. Creating a presentation, right?
31:54
You probably have really specific things that
31:56
you want, but do you want to start with a blank
31:59
screen or do you want somebody to get it like
32:01
90 % there and then you can put your little final
32:04
tweaks? How do you know I always did that? Because
32:07
now I've got you dialed in. I feel like you know
32:09
me a lot. We are kind of an archetype. Like this
32:15
highly ambitious, perfectionistic person who
32:18
was really rewarded for getting it just right.
32:22
And then we're like, my identity is so wrapped
32:24
up in getting it just right that I can't let
32:26
go of that. And that's okay as long as you have
32:30
capacity. But when our capacity starts to really
32:33
suffer, there has to be another gear that we
32:36
can go into. Uh, me to a T, definitely. So thank
32:43
you for my own personal coaching. I'm so seen.
32:48
No, I mean, you, you hit on so many things, right?
32:50
That I think so many high achieving, ambitious
32:52
women can relate to where, yes, we've, we've
32:55
gone through this climb. We're at this peak.
32:56
Our kids are older. Now you're dealing with other
32:58
things that you didn't see coming, like aging
33:00
parents or, you know, whatever. So it's like
33:02
there, it doesn't stop. I think that to your
33:05
earlier point where we think we're going to hit
33:06
a certain. peak and then it's going to be easier.
33:09
Obviously, there's always going to be the speed
33:11
bumps. I love speed bumps over obstacles that
33:13
we have to move forward to. Someone's listening
33:16
to this and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I am
33:18
seeing this is me too. What do we do tomorrow?
33:24
What's that thing that we can just, again, no
33:26
magic wand, where do we start? Yeah. I think
33:30
really the first thing you can do independently
33:32
is ask yourself, just sort of run like a little
33:36
bit of a time audit. Where is my time and my
33:39
energy and my head space like being fully occupied?
33:43
And start asking, this is the question that works
33:45
for a lot of people, am I uniquely qualified
33:47
to do this thing? Oh, I like that. And the more
33:50
things in your life that you can look at it and
33:52
go objectively like, I am not uniquely qualified
33:55
to do that, right? Somebody could do it, maybe
33:58
not quite as well, maybe not quite as fast, but
34:01
like, I probably don't have to be the one to
34:04
do that or that piece. That's the first place
34:07
to start to go and get a little bit of relief.
34:09
And I think the lower the stakes of the thing,
34:12
like if it's a lower stakes experiment, you're
34:13
more likely to run it. Like it just doesn't matter
34:15
that much, right? So somebody else could do it.
34:18
The world would go on if they didn't do it perfectly,
34:20
but I'm going to like try to see if I can get
34:23
the return. Because the whole cycle builds on
34:27
you starting to see the power of freeing up time
34:30
and energy and headspace and emotional bandwidth
34:33
for things you want more. Right? Because, Betsy,
34:36
none of this matters if we love our life. Right.
34:39
But what is true for a lot of women when I cross
34:42
paths with them is they're super frustrated about
34:44
some part of their life. They're stuck. Like,
34:47
I can't imagine getting to the next level at
34:49
work because where would I find the capacity?
34:51
Sure. I can't make this relationship any better.
34:54
I can't take better care of my health. I don't
34:56
know how I'm going to go get my PhD, whatever
35:00
it is that they want to do, because there's just
35:02
no bandwidth. And so running these experiments
35:06
starts to prove like, oh, maybe there's a little
35:08
more maneuverability. And then they can call
35:10
me. Then it's like, that's the place where I
35:13
think having somebody who's a thought partner
35:16
that you can really work some of this out with
35:18
in a like a learning lab environment that's unique
35:21
to you is powerful. I run something called the
35:24
coaching circle, which is a very kind of low
35:26
ticket, easy way to learn these peak practices
35:28
one at a time. We tackle one every month in a
35:31
group setting. And that's a great starting point
35:34
to just kind of start to build some skills that
35:36
you can apply in your life. And then I do more
35:38
intensive engagements with people who really
35:41
are sitting at that peak of complexity. Like
35:43
they're a leader at work. They probably have
35:45
school age kids at home. They're maxed, but they
35:49
know they're not done. They still have this ambition
35:51
that hasn't been satisfied. I run a circle called
35:54
Bold for those people that is a great experience,
35:58
and then I do some private coaching. That's awesome.
36:00
I love that. And especially that you're focused
36:02
on this timeframe, right? Like it's very specific
36:04
and, and you're right. I think a lot of times
36:06
we sit there and think that it's just us or we'll
36:08
figure it out or it's going to get better. But
36:10
you know, even talking through that with someone
36:13
and having those conversations and obviously
36:14
you ask the most perfect questions, but it's,
36:17
it's, it is normal. Yes, a hundred percent, but
36:19
there's ways to make it better to help support
36:22
you versus being in your head and just wanting
36:24
to lose your mind all the time. It's not really
36:26
the answer. Well, there's a whole kind of like,
36:29
group of experts, I would say out there who are
36:32
very focused on structural change, and I'm glad
36:35
they're doing it. I'm glad there are people focusing
36:38
on structural change. That's not my work. I think
36:44
I am not waiting for a white knight to come and
36:46
change the structure. I think people need help
36:49
right now. So I'm very focused in my practice
36:52
on personal agency. And what can you do if no
36:56
one is coming to save you? That's really where
36:59
I'm going to sit is I just don't think we have
37:01
time to wait for the systems to catch up and
37:04
have universal childcare. It's just probably
37:06
not going to happen. Yeah. And to your point,
37:09
there's the theory and there's the big picture
37:11
and that's awesome. But what can we do now? Circle
37:13
of influence, circle of control. What can we
37:15
control? What's in our control that we can make
37:17
those changes? And hopefully, systematically,
37:19
things will change. Probably not in our lifetime,
37:21
but maybe in our children's, who knows? But it's
37:24
focusing on those things that we can control.
37:26
So this has been amazing. If people want more
37:28
information, where can they find out about you
37:31
and Brilliant Balance and your circles? So Brilliant
37:35
Balance is the website. It's brilliant -Balance
37:37
.com. The sub stack is a great starting point.
37:40
You can subscribe to the sub stack from there
37:42
and kind of get a flavor for things which links
37:44
you to the podcast and kind of all the other
37:46
things that we do for free, which is a great
37:48
way to get. more kind of inside on my work. Perfect.
37:51
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for being
37:53
here. I greatly appreciate it. Thanks for my
37:54
personal coaching session, too. I love this conversation
37:57
because it wasn't about telling women to lower
37:59
their ambition or just magically find balance.
38:02
It was really about recognizing when the way
38:05
you've been operating no longer works for the
38:07
life you've built and giving yourself permission
38:10
to change it. And if you're listening to this
38:13
thinking, OK, but what exactly is making this
38:15
season of my life feel so hard? Shareland has
38:18
a free quiz that can help you figure that out.
38:20
It's called What's Making the Season of Your
38:23
Life So Hard? and it helps you identify which
38:25
of the three hidden challenges may be making
38:28
the season harder to navigate and what could
38:30
actually help. You can find this quiz through
38:33
Brilliant Balance and I'll include the link in
38:35
the show notes and maybe start with Shareland's
38:38
question from today. Am I uniquely qualified
38:40
to do this? Because being capable of carrying
38:43
something doesn't always mean it needs to be
38:46
yours. Until next time, stay loud, stay lifted
38:49
and don't do it alone.