Latest / Andini Effendi / Indonesia Darurat Scamming ft. Niki Luhur with Andini Effendi ep.119

Transcript

Indonesia Darurat Scamming ft. Niki Luhur with Andini Effendi ep.119 · Andini Effendi

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And the bigger business is not even judi online. Scam
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is a bigger business than judi online. But the SMS
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: OTP comes to you. You think this is for some
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: other legitimate reason, but you give the OTP.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Because it's a lie. AI can be used for bad things.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Don't let this scammer who's using deepfake to open a
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: bank account that will later be used to wash money.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: A fried bun. You can copy a family member's card.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Photocopy a family member's card.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Even the KTP data. Until it becomes a fried bun.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: Nicky Luhur, welcome to my podcast, My Living Room. Nicky
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Luhur is a good friend of mine, but also the
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: founder and group CEO of Vida. Now, Vida, maybe it's
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: from you to explain to my audience, what is Vida actually?
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: And why are you here talking about fraud? Are you
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: a fraud buster?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Always a pleasure being here. Yeah,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: VIDA is a digital identity network. That means, maybe some
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: of the things that we do is to verify people's identity.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: We make sure, maybe with some key technologies, which is
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: one of them is biometric. The other one is cryptography
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: or maybe crypto. So, where the point is to ensure,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: is this a real person? And to fight the real
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: fight is about deep fake. and the problem of scam.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: So every day we use technology, digital identity technology, especially biometric,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: face recognition, lifeness detection, and strong authentication to make it
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: very simple to answer the simple question of is this
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the right person or not. Is this really Andini who
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: is in a transaction or not? Is this really Andini
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: who wants to open a account in one of the.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Crypto exchanges for example?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Or is this a fraudster who misuses your identity to
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: open an account to wash money? So that is the
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: day-to-day stuff that we deal with. Which is kind of
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: crazy actually. It's a bit intense. But yeah, whether we
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: want it or not, We're a big, you know, we're
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: part of this whole world of fighting fraud.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so basically you, if I don't get it wrong,
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: you make the security infrastructure for digital users that exist
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: in Indonesia. Like me, I have mBanking, I have, what
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: else is there? Obviously, I have my own phone number,
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: my own handphone, etc. You try to make the security
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: for my identity.
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: We're a cyber security.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Company, and our focus is especially.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: To ensure the process of verification and authentication of a
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: person's identity in any platform is done in a safe
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and correct way. Where it is accepted by the government.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: This is not just me giving one identity. There are
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: many kinds of identities. Maybe if we are in the office,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: we also have an ID badge as a worker. The
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: ID badge of the employee cannot be used to open
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: a bank account, right? Yes. Well, it must definitely use
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: the official identity that is recognized by the government.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: For example, such as KTP, Passport, SIM, etc. Well, that is.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: The digital identity infrastructure that FIDAP has built. We cooperate
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: with several government institutions, including, for example, Dukcapew. To be
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: able to collaborate and utilize the IKTP infrastructure, not only
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: in its physical form, but it can be transacted.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: In the digital world.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And in the digital world, for example, because if we
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: take the example of a pure digital player, many of
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: our clients tend to move in the finance industry, especially
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: digital finance.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: That's probably the sweet spot, you could say.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: One example is Digital Bank. Each Digital Bank doesn't have branches, right? Usually,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: if we want to open a bank account, we have
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: to go to the branch, give a certificate as proof
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: of our identity, we sign something to give permission that
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I understand the conditions to open a bank account and
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: get financial services from Bank A. That's all the process,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: let's say onboarding, we do everything digitally. not only for
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: bank institutions, but also for example, if we want to
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: get online credit cards, digital, virtual, if we want to
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: get a valid online loan, or want to open a
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: crypto account, want to buy an insurance, or want to
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: open an e-money account, these are some things that we
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: must have a governance process, To make sure that this
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: is the right person and don't let this scammer who
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: is using deepfake to open a bank account that will
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: later be used to wash money.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: So these are the kind of.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Governance that we help many financial institutions. To comply with regulations,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: anti-money laundering, and cyber security. But that's one thing. The
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: bigger challenge that we always face is, don't let there
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: be many victims of scamming now.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: How bad is the scamming condition in Indonesia?
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's very bad. From scale 1 to 10, how
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: dangerous is it?
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: 100.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: If we look at the Cyber Resilience Index, if I'm
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: not mistaken, from 112 countries, Indonesia ranks 111th.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: We only lost the worst to Pakistan. That's it.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: .
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Which is stolen, it still goes up exponentially. So
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: this is not something that we can say, not only
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: is it bad, this is already in a crisis stage.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: It's really bad.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: Crisis, like this, I also, actually like this, I want
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: to be honest with you. I want to talk to
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: you because I became a victim of scamming where suddenly
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: I use one bank, the credit card, to call me
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: and see whatsapp. Because he uses the logo of the bank,
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: I have the credit card, okay. He called, he called,
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: he said, wow, this is an unusual purchase. Then sent OTP,
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: then I was asked to open the link, enter the
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: OTP there, and the link is really the bank's link.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: That's right. For their products.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: It's actually, if you look at it, it's actually very simple, right?
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Is that still the level, the level is as simple
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: as that, or is it even more sophisticated if it
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: happens in Indonesia?
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: In fact, in Indonesia, several bank channels have been hijacked.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: So it's an official channel.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Where, for example, we make an online transaction, we get OTP.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: OTP is indeed genuine. And from the right channel. But
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: it's from.
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: The bank that sends it, right? Because the number is
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: the bank's number.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: The first one, for example, is genuine and true. And
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: from the bank. And that is a genuine transaction. In
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: the same channel.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: The next SMS can be from scammers. Because they have
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: several techniques.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Especially in Jakarta, in Sudirman. There's a thing.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Called Mobile BTS. Mobile BTS where it's Rogue BTS. It's used,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: there are people around using a car in Sudirman to bring...
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: BTS infrastructure that is actually used for disaster recovery, for
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: example in Aceh or whatever. There's a real use case,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: but it's being misused now. Okay, but the BTS channel
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: is official? No.
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's not official? No, it's not official.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: This is fake.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the problem is our cell phone and its infrastructure, technology,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Our phone will connect to the nearest BTS. And there
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: is no process to verify. Whether the BTS or the
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: channel claims this is from the bank. There is no
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: verification process. So they can claim me from any channel.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And from the consumer side, who knows? I only know
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: this is previously an official transaction. Official message. Next, usually
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: there is a point offer or something. Nah, dari sana
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: ada link. Kalau kita klik buka link, itu. is a website,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the site, which is exactly 100% the same as the bank.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: And there, enter the OTP. Which is said, oh we
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: want to verify your identity, we will send OTP, maybe
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: that's the story. Maybe you get a bonus, you can redeem.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: You can get.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: How many vouchers or points that can be used.
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: Or suspicious transactions.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Or suspicious transactions. So the tactics are two. One is incentive,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: he uses greed tactic. Second, he uses fear tactic. Oh,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: your account is being compromised. I will help you, but
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: you have to move fast. So they use the panic syndrome.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Now from there, the next thing that will happen is
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: what they're doing is either they reset your password. They actually,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: the OTP that is sent to you is an official OTP.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: But what is the OTP made for?
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: What they're doing is they initiate reset your password. Or
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: they enroll a new device for mobile banking.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: With your account.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: And usually if we reset our password, we have to
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: verify it.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Hey, this is an OTP SMS.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Tapi SMS OTP-nya masuk ke kamu, kamu kira ini untuk
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: some other legitimate reason, tapi kamu kasih OTP-nya.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Karena ditipu.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: And then afterwards, mereka sudah punya akses untuk reset your password.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Dan setelah itu, mereka tinggal bikin password baru, udah punya
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: akses ke rekening kamu.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: It's that simple.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: That's what's happening every day. That's called account takeover. That's
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: industry jargon.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: That's standard.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: It's been a long time. And this is one of
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: the disadvantages. It's not a matter of SMS OTP, how
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: cryptography to calculate OTP is problematic.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: No. The problem is people can be cheated.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: To give this OTP to others.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And that is the problem.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: But, in my opinion, the bigger question is, who is
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: at fault?
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: Yes, why is there no one to take care of us?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Usually, the one at fault, we have been educated. Ms. Andini,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: we have been educated. Ms.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Andini, don't ever share OTP and so on.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, we can say, sorry, Ms. Andini is responsible.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Ms.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Andini who is given OTP, we have warned Ms. Andini. Hey,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't have shared your OTP.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: But.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: If 90% of people get hit and the case is
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: like Ms. Andini, is it really your fault? If we
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: design a toll road, the toll road should be safe, right? Well,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: there are people who drive their car and hit it.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: But if many people hit it every day, At the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: same point on the toll road. Is that a problem
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: for the car driver or is there a problem with
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the toll road? So that is, in my opinion, the
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: difference in understanding the point of view. Now, we've seen
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: that from the side, not only in Indonesia, and this
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: is not a problem only in Indonesia. In all of
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Southeast Asia, the main problem from almost all financial regulators,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: banks of each country, one of the biggest number one
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: problem from the consumer protection side is scam. Especially now,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: scammers can use AI technology in an easy way, where
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: anyone without ada experience atau alih daya teknis, sama sekali.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Tinggal bayar.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Seperti cloud service, orang yang akan remote install software TV
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: ke laptop Anda, dan tinggal, dia akan bantu membuat 3D
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: profile-nya of your target victim. Itu cuma butuh 9 foto.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: 9 foto, can create a full 3D realistic deepfake. In
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: an interactive way. This is not a deepfake video. Including
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: full voice clone.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: So it's like my video?
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, and this software integration has been integrated directly to WhatsApp.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: So just click on the laptop. Who do I want
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: to be? Take 9 photos. Give audio file, especially Bandini.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: A lot of YouTube podcasts. I just need to download
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the podcasts.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: I clone your voice. All of that is supported by
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: a technical team.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: But that must be expensive, right?
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: The investment for scammers who are already in the same class.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: $ 2, 000 per year. $ 2, 000 per year.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: And that case has been found in Indonesia? Not cheap either.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: So it's a good business for the person who builds
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: that software. For the scammer. But the investment is not
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: hundreds of millions. The investment is around 40.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Million per year.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: And that has already happened in Indonesia, there's already something
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: Already. The profile is made from deepfake. Already.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: The return on investment, if you are a scammer, the
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: return on investment is actually amazing. So, this is the problem,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: because the real, if we look at scam as a business,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: it's one of the fastest growing businesses, globally.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Even until Warren.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Buffett, Said the fastest growing industry and business in the
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: world today is the scam industry.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Even Warren Buffett said that. So this is a huge problem.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: And yeah, it's an issue of is the technology standards
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: today good enough to fight the type of threat that
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: exists today?
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Deepfake is just one thing.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Now, and just yesterday, there must be a lot of
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: people who heard, wow, the issue of mythos.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: What is that?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Mythos from anthropic. Mythos, mythos.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: This is an AI foundational model that can be said
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to be able to find a hole in any application
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: and IT system where it is considered too dangerous to
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: be released to the public.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Sampai Entropic pun membuat satu proyek khusus for limited release.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Dan dia harus implement beberapa safeguards. Dan akhirnya model baru
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: yang dirilis namanya Fable. Nah itu Fable seharusnya ada guardrails.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Masalahnya sekarang ada banyak open source model. Selain Mythos. Misalnya GLM.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: It already has technical capabilities. Especially the capability of cyber
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: security from the side of penetrating the security system. It's
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: already very sophisticated.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And it's open source.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Even though in the application it can.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: We plant a few safeguards, don't let this be used
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: for scam and so on. It's called open source. Safeguard
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: is the code base that is fully open.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: It can be edited by anyone.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: Okay. Wait, I don't understand. So these scammers can use
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: this technology too? That's right.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: And it's also used for banking institutions or what?
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: To penetrate bank applications, for example. And it's always banks.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: That are the target, right? Banks, online loans, crypto.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Okay. That's probably the most high risk, right?
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Because the point is, we can use other people's identity,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: take a loan on their name, I took a loan
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: on Ms. Andini's name, and I said, thank you very much.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I pulled the full credit limit, tens of millions, I
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: lost it. And then, the bank called Ms. Andini, or
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: the online loan called Ms.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Andini. Eh, Ms. Andini needs to pay this debt. And
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: you're like, huh?
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: I've never applied for this loan, why? I've never got
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: this virtual credit card, why? And you're stuck with the bill.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: And you have to prove it wasn't you.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: But the cheater, he already has our data, he already
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: has the KTP, all kinds of account numbers.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Well, they can actually open up their accounts, right? So
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: they only need your KTPK data, where unfortunately on the
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: dark web there are already a lot of.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of personal data.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: Paniki, do we know who the players are? There are
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: quite a lot.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Of global players. Here are global syndicates.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Actually The Economist ran a big podcast called Scam Inc.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Especially for.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: To do some investigative journalism to find out who is
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: behind it. So, there are some, maybe the most famous,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: that recently or at least last year, was also arrested.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: One of them is actually a group operating out of Myanmar,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: in an industrial compound called KK Park. Now, in that case,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: They managed to seize 15 billion dollars of Bitcoin assets.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: That's the result of the scam. 15 billion dollars. Not rupiah, dollars.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: That's the only one that was seized. Single point of time.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Not the results.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: That have run away.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Single point of time, 15 billion dollars of Bitcoin. So,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: these organizations, we can see that there is a connection
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: to syndicates.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: In Indonesia as well.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: There is actually a linkage in one of the syndicates
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: in Sleman, in Jogja.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: But they are only operators, only the mastermind or the mastermind?
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: So, one of the.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Supposed masterminds, his name is Prince. This is tracing back
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to some of the origins in China.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: These are a lot.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Of organized crime that has actually evolved. or drug trafficking,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: or online gambling, which of course is illegal. But it
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: turns out, and this is a case in the Philippines,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: where there is legal online gambling in the Philippines, there
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: are those who have permission. The crazy thing is, sometimes
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: we think that judi is already a very profitable business.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: That's why the ethics of judi may be a topic
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: for another day.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: But it's a very profitable business. It turns out that.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: This judi online license is only used to wash money scams.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Because the bigger business is not even judi online. Scam
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: is a bigger business than judi online. The economists also
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: released findings that they estimate that the size of the
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: scam business globally is equal to the entire narcotics trade globally.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: In the past, it was called Narco State. In the
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: time of Pablo Escobar, he could control his own military.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Own helicopter, own army.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: That full blown, there's already a few thoughts about scam states.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: The level of influence, the level of control, the amount
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: of money that's flowing globally, this is a very serious level.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: This is what sometimes, I don't think many people realize
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: how big of a problem it really is.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: How do we take care of it? If from the
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: regulatory side, the Indonesian.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Government has understood how bad it is and they have
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: to take care of the consumer.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, indeed we see from the side of the OJK
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: from one and a half years ago, almost two years
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: from November 2024, they launched Indonesia Anti-Scam Center. Now this
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: is one of the initiatives to coordinate between the OJK, com, DG, polisi,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: dan lain-lain. Khususnya untuk menangani masalah scam. Nah, definitely kalau
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: dari sisi.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Awareness bahwa ini adalah masalah.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: dan salah satu isu yang terbesar dari sisi perlindungan konsumen...
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: memang sudah diakui. What are we doing to really fight? Nah,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: itu yang kadang not so easy. Because if we want
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: to change the system, especially the security system, first we
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: have to define what the cyber security standard is. And
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: not only from the regulatory side, but also the technical standard.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: If not, only.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: In a big concept, how do we know what the
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: standard is safe or not?
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: Hmm, so there's not a single word yet.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: What is the actual standard for digital security?
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Well, if we look.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: At it, there are several security standards, especially in the
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: world of digital identity. Actually, ComDigi has defined identity verification
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: standards and authentication standards, and all of them actually refer
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to global standards. So the good news is, There are
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: already very detailed standards in Indonesia. But maybe one of
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: the challenges is that if this is only based on
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: one standard, sometimes the problem is more of a problem
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: of harmonization. Harmonization of the unity of all other ministries.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Because is ComDG above other ministries?
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: No. It's the same, one level.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: So all.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: these standards must be implemented. And of course, Komdiji is
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: not alone. Komdiji, apart from that, there is the State
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Cyber and Security Agency, BSSN. It must also be coordinated,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: whether from the law enforcement side, from the police side,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: will accept the same thing.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: So, if someone violates, what will be the punishment? What
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: will be the enforcement?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: And if there is a technical standard, Okay, first we
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: have to be detailed enough so that we know what
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: kind of.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Implementation we want to implement.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Is it, for example, a safety standard, a safety checklist
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: if we, let's say, want to build a car. Yes,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: there must be an airbag, there must be several things, yes,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: we must use a seatbelt. Yes, it must be quite detailed, right?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Are there two airbags for the two passengers in the front?
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Or only for the driver?
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: These are the details.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Whether there is a braking system. These are some details
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: from the side of cyber security. At least from the
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: authentication standard.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Which standard do you want? Which is the minimum?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: And will all of this be equal for all transactions?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Or only have to be leveled per level of risk?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: If we make a transaction to buy coffee, maybe our
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: transaction can be 20,000, 30,000, buy coffee.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Is that high risk? Maybe, maybe not.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: But if we are making a transaction, let's say a
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: B2B contract, where the transaction value is for example 100 million,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: 1 billion, or more, Of course, the level of risk
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: is different. Well, to adjust the right level of security
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: to the right level of risk, it also has a risk.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: And the risk can't all be counted in the.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Value of the contract. If it's finance, maybe it can.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: But other than that, there are many transactions that can.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Earlier I talked about how is a scam happening. A
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: scam happens when they do an account takeover, it's because
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: they're resetting your password. There's no value in the transaction
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: reset password. So is that transaction defined as high risk
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: or not?
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: That's another area that needs homework.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Hello friends, there's still a lot of you who haven't subscribed.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: So please subscribe. And you can also like and share
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: to your friends or anyone who you think is worth
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: watching this episode. I'm thinking like this, because the banking
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: system is very rigid. Can't the OJK think about it? Anyway,
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: every bank must have a security infrastructure to protect its
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: consumers from scamming.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: For example, like what you do, right?
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Actually, it must be on average so that there is
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: no more.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: So from the OJK side, there are indeed several standards,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: especially let's say authentication standards, where it has been determined
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: that there.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Must be two factors of authentication. must be determined.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: But the question is, what are the factors? Now, SMS
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: OTP is still accepted. Meanwhile, in several other countries, whether
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: right or wrong, different story, but at least in Bank
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Negara Malaysia, in MAS Singapore, in the Philippines, Central Bank
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of the Philippines. And in Thailand, they don't allow SMS
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: OTP for transactions, for authentication again. Because of the social
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: engineering problem. The problem of SMS OTP, I can.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Trick people to share.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: So it's already a big problem.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: In fact, some countries like Thailand, they have implemented higher standards,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Thailand and Vietnam. Transactions that cost more than 5 million
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: rupiahs need biometric verification. So, a transaction that has a
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: high value, and the value can be said to be
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: 5 million, or aggregate for example in one day, 20
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: million or more, it is required to have biometric authentication,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: face recognition. So the standard is indeed different between several countries.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: If we also look from the Philippine side and also
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: in Malaysia. In fact, they are already required for fraud detection.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Fraud detection system that looks outside the authentication system but
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that looks inside the device. Is this a real device
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: or not? Can we detect this device is already There's
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: malware in there. Because the second problem is not only
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: social engineering, there's someone who calls to lie to you.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: But sometimes there's someone who blasts content-content that, is that
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: one of the scams? Oh, this is a package that Mr.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Andini hasn't been claimed. Eh, we have a problem to send.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Please open this, please open the photo. Please open the invoice,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: please open this link. Well, it turns out that when
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: you open it, it's malware. I've also been sent malware
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: by my driver. My driver turns out to be actually
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: his daughter is getting married. And actually at that point,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: he wanted to send me, he had been a few
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: weeks ago. And then suddenly there was a WhatsApp group.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I saw the name of the group. I saw my mother,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: my father, my sister, and many others. There was also
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: my father in this group.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Then there was a delivery. A delivery of this wedding invitation.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: It was strange. Then I saw, because of course I'm
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: in this industry, that was the APK file. APK is
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: an application, basically. An application on Android. If you actually click,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: where at first you might think this is just an invitation.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: And you click, you think it's a photo. But it
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: turns out that when you click, it installs malware to
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: your phone. And when it installs malware, scammers can have
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: remote access to take over your phone. Termasuk ambil alih
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: WhatsApp kamu. And that's what happened to my driver. Then
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: beberapa malware bisa melakukan namanya key logging. Jadi pas kita
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: setiap huruf dan angka yang kita ketik, kecatat. Termasuk kalau
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: kita masuk ke aplikasi apapun, aplikasi keuangan apapun, misalnya aplikasi
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: e-money atau apa, kalau pakai password, can be recorded remotely
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: without our knowledge. That's why the technology standards are evolving
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: very fast. And some other banks implement, hey, you have
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to make sure if you have a financial application, you
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: have to scan your phone, don't let your phone get jailbreak.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Because if your phone gets jailbreak, all the standard processes
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: for mengamankan the system security, itu dikompromi.
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: Ya, oh my God.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: But Indonesia lama banget dong ketimbang negara-negara ASEAN lainnya ya.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Ya, mungkin ya dari sisi keamanan siber, saya rasa kita
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: bisa mungkin belajar ya. Dari, atau at least benchmarking dari
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: beberapa negara yang lain. Now, actually beberapa kepatuhan misalnya dari
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Bank Central Philippines, they have an anti-financial Account Scamming Act.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: It's called AFASA. Especially for this issue. Because... And it
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: just came out last year. So actually a lot is
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: happening quite quickly.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: So even in the Philippines, just through their regulation before AFASA,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I would say Indonesia is more advanced.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: But it has just been revised.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: It has just been revised and required for transaction monitoring,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: meal account detection, malware detection, Routed device detection, this is
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of quote-unquote latest technology to prevent scam has
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: been mandatory.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: But that just happened. So to be fair, before.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: AFASA, if we compare regulations in Indonesia compared to the Philippines,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: in 2024 Indonesia is far ahead.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: But They also just revised the regulation and now the
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: regulation of Avasa is much stricter. So this is something
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: that at the end of the day, yeah, to revise
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the regulation is not easy either, it takes time. And
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: that's what unfortunately, yeah, scammers move much faster.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: Exactly, because of technology, right?
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: So you have to be more agile, you have to
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: be more adaptable I feel.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: Okay, then I want to ask this.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: So even now, we actually share KTP on WhatsApp, it
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: shouldn't be done, right?
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: That's right. That's our way, right? Because the problem of
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: this malware, right? If malware has entered your cellphone, and
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: people can have remote access to your cellphone, right?
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: If I check Ms. Andini's gallery, Are there any.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: KTP-KTPs of you and maybe even other people, your family,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: in your gallery? And it's something that is normal. Because
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: we also need convenience. Some people think, I want to
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: send WhatsApp. Please, instead of being troublesome, just go through WA.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: But the problem is, where do you store it later?
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: In the gallery. Is the gallery protected? No, right? It's
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: not protected. So, this is the problem.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: And if we want to know whether our data has
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: leaked anywhere or not, we can just look at it.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Do you know?
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, a fried bun can be a family member's card.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Photocopy of a family member's card. Even KTP data.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Until it became a fried bun. At one point, the
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: team had a creative idea to build awareness. We did
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: this campaign to give fried buns, but with a bun
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: To show, because it's a real problem in Indonesia.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: This is not a theory.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Our identity is used for fried buns.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: So the question is, is it even if you just Google,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: try Google search KTP.
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: That's already out, a lot.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: A lot has come out. A lot.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: And we can't just make it using the latest AI technology. Yes.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: Niki, as a fraud buster, you must have a lot
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: of enemies, right? Because you open up all these scammers.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Well, actually it's not my goal to make enemies, but
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: hopefully our objective is to help people, to help victims.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, if we end
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: up making enemies, well, what can we do?
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: You told us that this is how they work.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, because at the end of the day, hopefully if
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: we want to protect each other, Warga, jaga warga. What
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: are we gonna do, right? The first step is kita
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: harus bantu edukasi. Tapi mudah-mudahan selain edukasi, kita lagi bangun
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: banyak teknologi juga. Kita kerjasama dengan cukup banyak lembaga jasa
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: keuangan untuk meningkatkan setanah keamanan siber mereka. So, yeah, I
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: think at the end of the day, yeah, it's an.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Occupational hazard.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, pernah jadi target nggak selain tadi yang dari supir.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: This is actually quite frequent. There are those who try
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: to cheat my friends at.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Vida, my fellow colleagues.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: There are those who try to become a Niki Luwur
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: and give orders and so on. So, there are indeed
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: many who try to steal my identity.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: But, Hopefully, they don't succeed.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: Hopefully not, okay.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Why did you become interested in this digital infrastructure safety industry?
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: What makes you interested in this world and finally became
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: a fraud buster?
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Before Vida, I actually founded a payment company. So I
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: used to work in the payment system. And actually, in
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: the world of payment systems, the main challenge is not
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: the payment technology. Because if we want to calculate payment,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: we actually only need one ledger. Simple accounting, double ledger, credit, debit, credit, debit,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: money in, out.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: In, out, that's about it.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: It's quite simple. The challenge is, is this a person.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: The winner, the one who owns this account, is the
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: same person who wants to make a transaction. So actually,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: the payment's problem, the payment's challenge from the past, was
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: always an identity problem.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Now I realize, actually after a long time, it was more.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Than 12 years in the payment system from 2006, But
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: on a daily basis, actually I was doing less about
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: the payment. It's not about reconciliation, it's just that it's
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: not the main challenge. The main challenge from the past
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: in the payment system is fraud. But back then, it
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: was different. For example, back then, before our credit or
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: debit card, we used a chip, a magnetic one, magnetic stripe.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Dulu problem is ada yang salah gesek ambil data kita
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: transaksi online. Karena dapat nomor kartu kredit, kartu debit, transaksi online,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: dan itu detail kartunya yang dicuri. Dan dipakai, digunakan untuk transaksi.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Ini sepertinya dari dulu masalahnya ujung-ujungnya sama.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: It's fraud. It's identity fraud.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: They're stealing a different thing, but at the end of
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: the day it's the same issue, the problem is the
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: verification and authentication of the person. Is the person who
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: makes the transaction, the person who has the right to
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: the account or not.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: It's an identity problem.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: So, it's actually from the past, whether I realize it
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: or not, actually I've been working in this field for
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: 20 years. So, Yeah, I think, why do I keep
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: doing it? I think not only it's important, of course,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I think we've developed enough skills, I have enough friends
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: who can do this job well. We know we can
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: build enough value for our clients, our businesses. I love this,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: love technology, I love being able to solve these difficult problems.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: And infrastructure, if we want to make something that has
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: a big impact, yeah, I think infrastructure is one of
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: the most important things, especially for digital transformation, right? So
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: digital infrastructure is a key for not only us to
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: be able to move forward, but we have to do
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: it safely.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, What does the
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: world need?
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, for me, the
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: concept of ikigai, what are you good at? What can
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: you be paid for? What do you love to do?
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: And what does the world need? For me, that intersection
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: is identity. So that's why I do what I do.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: How do you convince your clients? Because you're actually in demand,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: you should see the need is so big. What is
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: the question from the client that seems to.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Be always asked?
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: They know they need this security system. But how do
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: you convince them to use it?
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: So, I think the challenge, because the.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Problem with overall products of cyber security is a bit complex.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: So first, does the client.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Who has the problem understand The solution is B.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: It's actually the number one problem.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: So yeah, the biggest issue of selling complex products is
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: that the first thing you need to do is education.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Actually I'm in the business of education first. To build awareness,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: this is the problem. The scam problem, but if we
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: see what the root cause is.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Not the symptom, but the root cause. Why?
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: What is the problem in our infrastructure? That's the first step.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: Then we can give a solution, but we have to
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: continue first. Because if, for example, we are sick, we
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: can't directly diagnose it ourselves. No, right? We have to
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: go to a doctor. A doctor who has the power.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: A doctor who will, hey, triage first. You can see
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: what diseases you have. Then you can see, okay, I'll
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: try to check the labs later. From the data side, okay,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: it turns out this disease, that disease, it seems like
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: you have a disease. You cannot self-diagnose. Well, the world
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: of cyber security systems is a bit similar. You have
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: to meet the doctor first. Then you can know what
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: the medicine is.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: So, Sometimes this is the problem, at least the challenge.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: And secondly, all cyber security products, unfortunately, can be said
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: to be like insurance. Because what is the right level?
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: And the urgency, if it has never been hit, it
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: is needed. I think it's okay.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: It's still okay.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Would you ever buy, maybe there were a few people
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: who bought insurance, but when there was a pandemic, there
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: was COVID, I'm sure insurance sales went up.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: You see the issue, you see the demand, but how,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: before there was COVID, how many pandemics did we experience?
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Travel insurance must have become much more popular. Unfortunately, something
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: has to happen first.
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: I know, yes.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, you have to get hit first, then you finally
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: need it. How do you keep up when, and please
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: feel free if you want to drink, please. When you
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: said earlier that scammers are really good, they are really
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: fast in their evolution, while you are fighting scammers who
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: are constantly evolving. It means that from FIDA itself, you
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: have to keep upgrading.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, the majority of investment in FIDA is to
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: R & B. Especially to invest in our security system.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: And right now, with the AI world, the speed of
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: R & D, the speed of development has changed exponentially.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: AI can be used for evil things. In the end,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: it can open and expose the holes in the system.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Much easier. That's the bad news. The good news is,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: kalau kita orang yang proaktif untuk membangun teknologinya, kita juga
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: bisa membangun teknologi yang sama untuk serang sistem kita sendiri
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: secara proaktif. Supaya teknologinya bisa diuji jauh lebih dengan skala
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: industrial yang jauh lebih.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Jauh lebih komprehensif dibanding dulu karena the cost to attack
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: sudah jatuh it's much cheaper saya kasih satu contoh dulu
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: the old way of doing testing apakah aplikasi ini aman
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: atau tidak ada sebuah aktivitas namanya penetration testing atau pen
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: test kita akan intinya coba cari bolong-bolong di sistem keamanan aplikasi.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Ya dari dulu, we've already banyak cyber security practitioners, sudah
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: memberikan pen testing services.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: For a long time.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: A pen test of an application, ya mungkin bisa di
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: berapa minggu, of course di scope, berapa banyak effort, tapi
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: it could cost like, Maybe 300-500 million. Once tested, it
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: depends on the scope. It can be much more. This
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: is maybe only at the early stage. With the current
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: AI tools, FIDA has implemented several latest techniques called AI
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Adversarial Testing. The point is we can automate some pen
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: testing using AI agents. Where the AI agents are doing
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: the penetration activity.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: To try to squeeze the system automatically. And they can
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: discover the holes independently, autonomously. From a few attacks, we
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: see the cost to do a successful penetration test now,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: maybe under $ 5.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: So the old.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: One, the price can be said to be hundreds of millions,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: maybe even billions, can now be below Rp.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: 100,000.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: For the attack or for the research?
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: To do the attack. Okay.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: But from the attack side, we already know right, if
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: we attack our own system, and every, usually financial institutions,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: they have what is called white hacker or ethical hacker,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: to do, This process to make sure that.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: The application is safe.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: On purpose. On purpose. Before it's released to the public.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: For public release. These are some of the standard operating procedure.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: But how often can you test? How much does the
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: test cost? If the testing is expensive, and it takes time,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: it takes one month, with the new method of AI
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: adversarial testing, The cost is less than 1%. And the
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: time compared to 1 month, it can run in 15 minutes.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: So there is a way to evolve as well. There
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: is a way to use the technology for good. And
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: using some practices that are actually standard.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: But that also has to evolve.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: Now, Nikita said that 30 years ago, it was about narco-terrorism.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: Now it's scamming.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: What's gonna happen to FIDA in the next 30 years
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: when we can maneuver this scamming?
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: We can get rid of it.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Well, our aspiration is at the end of the day,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: infrastructure is always needed. And hopefully, FIDA becomes invisible infrastructure.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Seperti listrik.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Kita kadang gak tau ini listriknya sumbernya dari mana, tapi
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: kita butuh and it just keeps running. Karena keamanan di
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: sistem online itu sangat dibutuhkan. And daripada the way that
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: the online systems are built today, kita percaya semua. Itu
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: adalah famous cartoon dulu, Even on, you know, a dog
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: can pretend to be a human on the internet, right?
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: That's the old cartoon. Yeah, we cannot do that anymore.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: I believe that the world of online systems needs to change.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: It needs to change where every day, hopefully, all transactions
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: and all online identities have been verified.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Right? These sensitive systems.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: At least the financial system, health system, education system, government system.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Critical infrastructure. Must be enforced.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Where there's no wrong use of people's identity. Because what's
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: at risk is not just money. But for example, what's
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: worth more than money?
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: What's more valuable than money?
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: Our identity.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, our identity. But bisa saja, our health, right?
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: That's true.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Kalau misalnya, ada yang salah gunakan medical records. It's very bad, right?
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Exposed to medical records. Ada yang.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Salah, let's say, tidak tahu alergi obat kamu. and mis-prescribed drugs.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: It can be fatal. So there's really some systems that
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: I believe are quite critical.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: And this is to maintain trust.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: So two objectives.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: The benefit of digitalization, from the comfort side, it can
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: be achieved. we can get much more efficient services. Which
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: today we have benefited from many things, such as we
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: want to order food, go food, right?
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: There are many.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: Choices, we are very comfortable, e-commerce in Indonesia, I would
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: argue is more advanced than many developed countries. Because we
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: can get the goods we order in one hour, in
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: two hours.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Even Amazon Prime, next day.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Not yet the same day, not yet the same time. So,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: the benefits of digitalization I think are clear. But how
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: do we make sure it can be done in a
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: sustainable way? And don't let the threats threaten that sustainability.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: So, is digital finance something good? Yes, it's good.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Who wants to go to the bank branch? Why do
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: we need to go to the bank branch? It's much
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: more convenient if I can get everything from my phone, great.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: And it will be more efficient. Because the operational costs
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: are not cheap.
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: But it has to be parallel with security. That's right.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: It has to be parallel with security. And it doesn't
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: mean everything is digital, but there has to be a
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: hybrid as well. Especially in the future, I think the
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: new future that will start unraveling is the agentic future.
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: What's that?
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Agentic.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: AI.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Where maybe all this time, we've seen e-commerce at the beginning.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: Then in the future, there's social commerce. TikTok live selling.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: I believe the next future is agentic commerce. Instead of
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: us using apps, right? Is the app the best user experience?
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: In my opinion, why? If I want to order a car,
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: I want to buy stuff, I want to buy food,
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: what's the most comfortable?
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: I just ask for it, right? I just talk.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Hey, it's like I have my own personal assistant. Hey,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: please order a taxi, order a car, I want to
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: come here.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Done. Why do I need an app interface?
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Now the interface, seharusnya the natural interface untuk kita sebagai
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: manusia is language.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: It's conversational.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: That is how we interface with each other. That is
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: what has defined as the difference of humanity's biggest skill.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: It's language. The ability to communicate.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: Nah, dari sana, can we leverage that as the interface
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: and then apa yang bisa translate sekarang aplikasi karya seperti
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: all the big AI applications apakah itu CGPT, Claude, Gemini
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: semua punya we can talk to them and they can
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: talk back to us and they can easily translate that
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: justru sekarang the infrastructure agentnya sudah bisa ke website dan
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: pesen makanan atau pesen.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Right healing for us. It's already possible today.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: The question becomes in the future is, is that AI agent,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: does it have authorization from who? Who gave, who gave
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: permission to that agent? Did Mbak Andini, did you authorize
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: that agent? And where's the proof? I believe that VIDA
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: will play a part in that future as infrastructure to
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: be able to make sure that things as advanced as
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: agentic commerce will be done safely. Where we can get
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: the benefit. But at the same time, don't let an
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: agent do something that's not on your behalf, that you
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: haven't given permission. And in the end, Well.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: You know what?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: I would like to thank Vida to basically ngejagain kita
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: from our back end without us even realizing that you
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: are there with us.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: So thank you so much. Thank you so much for
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: giving life. Vida is life, right?
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: That is life.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: being here.
• 1:00:27
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• 1:00:32
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