Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Tina Hollenbeck: Why Schools Drive Christian Students Away From The Faith

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Tina Hollenbeck: Why Schools Drive Christian Students Away From The Faith · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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defending biblical Christianity, no topic, off limits.
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And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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Hello friends, family and Christ, thank you so much for tuning in, God bless you, we
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appreciate you guys so much.
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And we talk about all kinds of different topics here on the show, I have all kinds of
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different guests, but it's nice to have someone in the studio, it doesn't happen as often
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as you'd think.
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We've got, we're so blessed to have Tina Hollenbeck with us, we're going to talk about
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homeschooling, I'll give you all the websites in a minute, but first, I just want to introduce
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her, she's from Green Bay, Tina, welcome to World View Matters.
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Thank you, I'm really excited to be here.
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Yeah, good to have you in the studio, seeing you at different churches and just, she's got
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an awesome family.
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So let me give you, first of all, the website for, one of her main websites for Wisconsin,
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that is called homeschoolloft.com, homeschoolloft.com.
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And then we're going to be talking about the homeschool road map, homeschool road map and
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what that is to help families.
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But we're also going to be focusing a little bit on her book, she's written a book several
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years ago, but it's applicable to any time and any family that wants to get their kids
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truly educated.
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And that's called eight great smarts for homeschoolers, a guide to teaching based on your child's
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unique strengths.
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And this is on Amazon five star reviews, congratulations.
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Thank you.
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For the reviews.
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Thank you.
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So, first of all, let's just talk about your story first.
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Before we get into the book, I, you wrote that, you know, several years ago, your progression
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as a homeschool mom.
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Now, when you were in school, were you homeschooled by your mom and if not, you know, what made
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you decide, you know what, I really want to give my kids an education, not what they're
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getting from the government run.
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As Alex Newman would say, the government run brainwash camps, go and share a little bit
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of your story and why you went down this road.
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Well, I'm too old to have been homeschooled because the homeschooling really goes back
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to colonial days and I'm not that old.
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In the United States, particularly Wisconsin, it became legal again or started to become
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prevalent again in 1984.
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Wait a minute.
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So, before that, it was illegal?
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In some states.
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It was off, so off the grid since the early 20th century that people thought it was illegal.
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And in many states, it actually had become illegal.
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In Wisconsin, it just went out of old, so nobody was really homeschooling from the turn
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of the 20th century until, and you'll love this, it was in the 60s and early 70s, it
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was really, I don't know if they talked to each other, but it was a confluence of Christians
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who wanted to get their kids out of public school, maybe couldn't afford a Christian school
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or there wasn't a Christian school in their area, and the hippies who said, the man ain't
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going to have my kids, and we need to get them out of the system.
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And whether some of those hippies were Jesus people or not, they all were kind of working
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for the same purposes at the time, and that's how homeschooling kind of came back into popularity.
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So the 80s, wow.
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Well, that was the 60s and 70s, and by 1984, the law on Wisconsin that protects us had
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been passed.
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Okay, so what kind of law would have to protect parents from wanting to make choices
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to educate their own kids?
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Well, every state has a compulsory attendance law, and it says in Wisconsin, it's from
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the age six until 18, or graduation, every child must be in school somewhere.
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And unless you have a specific law that somehow adds homeschooling into that mix, it's,
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the bureaucrats can say that's not legal, and they did.
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In many states, they said that means a brick and mortar conventional school.
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In some states, they tried to outlaw Christian schooling even.
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They said it has to be a government school.
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And so there were all these battles that started, again, kind of the 70s, and Wisconsin
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was one of the first states to actually have a codified law in the modern era.
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And by 1993 or 1994, all the states had a law.
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Okay.
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So all the states have some sort of law at this point.
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Okay.
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So you sent me some bullet points, and these are really good as we walk through them,
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and we'll get into your book a little bit.
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The current threats to homeschool freedom, I think this is very important because a lot
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of young families don't know how to approach this, and what's coming against them, what
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are the hurdles they have to jump, so to speak.
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You talk about vouchers, and what's ESA money, can you explain that a little bit?
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Yeah.
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I actually think that is the greatest current threat to homeschool freedom, and we've
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seen it in a number of states.
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So SS stands for Educational Savings Account, and so vouchers is kind of another term for
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that very same thing.
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The idea is the government will, quote unquote, give homeschool families money to homeschool
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our kids, and it sounds real attractive.
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You know, I pay property taxes, I pay an inordinate amount of property taxes, and I've
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never sent my kids to public school.
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So the theory between people who like it is I want some of my money back, so I can
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report into homeschooling, and again, it sounds really good, but there's got to be some
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red tape somewhere.
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Well, there's no such thing as a free lunch, right?
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So I mean, you know this, and your listeners probably know they don't have a little pot
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marked Holland Beck money in Madison for me, right?
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So if they give me money back, they're giving me back what essentially by their reckoning
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is somebody else's money.
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And it's not a bad thing to account for the use of other people's money, but accountability
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means regulation.
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So anytime you take government money, there will be regulation.
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There is.
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In the states where they have added this option, they add regulation, and what's sneakiest
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of all is they want to then add that same regulation on the homeschoolers who don't take
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the money.
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Oh, my goodness.
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Because they like data, and they like information, and this has been attempted already in West
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Virginia.
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Thank God it did not pass yet.
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I don't know.
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They gave homeschoolers money if they wanted it, and they promised, politician promise,
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we'll never add that on to people who don't take the money.
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A year later in the legislature, they tried to add the same regulations on to people who
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didn't take the money.
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It didn't pass.
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Praise God.
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But.
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So would one of the regulations also be maybe they have some say in the curriculum?
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Absolutely.
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Will you take this money?
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Yes.
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And that has actually happened with Christian schools that take voucher money.
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So it's really the same principle.
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Schools that take voucher money lose their academic freedom might be slow coming, but
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it will.
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And they'll let you choose any curriculum at first.
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But then little by little they'll say, oh, well, not that.
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And not that.
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And not that.
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And pretty soon, it's basically a public school with a Christian name on it.
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Okay.
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So one thing that you sent me, I've got to make sure we get to this because I looked at
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this and said, you're kidding me.
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The incursion into Christian homeschooling of Mormon resources and theology.
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Yeah.
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What?
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We didn't know.
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Christian homeschooling.
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Yeah.
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How does Mormon theology slip into this?
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Can you explain that?
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Yeah.
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And I think, you know, along with the voucher educational savings account money, that is
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the greatest threat to homeschool freedom, Christian homeschool freedom because to be
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fair, a lot of Mormons have been told by their church that they are a Christian denomination.
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So very well meaning Mormon people who've written curriculum, I've talked to some of
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them and they legit think that they are Christians.
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So they do not understand how the Book of Mormon has, you know, they've rewritten the
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Bible to twist things and match the Book of Mormon.
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They literally don't know because the church leadership wants their general population
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to believe that Mormonism is simply a Christian denomination.
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So when you've got the people who wrote the curriculum saying that, they're like, we're
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a Christian curriculum and they're nice people and it's quality material.
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So Christians start to buy it and there's a couple of big names that that is exactly
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what has happened.
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But there is Mormon theology in it because the writers are Mormon.
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So their theology has to come into it.
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So and we weren't planning on getting into this, friends, but let's just be clear about
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the contrast if you read the Bible which is God's Word and that is our final authority.
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And you read, for example, the Book of Mormon and they've got the Pearl of Great Parise
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doctrines and covenants, things like that.
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There's theology and there's things in there.
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They don't, we don't believe the same thing about Jesus, it's a different gospel.
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So they're great people.
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But to say that it is Christian, let's define Christian, okay, I'm so glad you brought
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that up because a lot of things are happening and we're curriculum.
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You've got to fight these curriculum battles when you're a Christian parent and really
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be watching for some of this.
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So let's take a little look at your book now, Tina, eight great smarts for homeschoolers.
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Let's talk about some of these smarts, these benefits of a home education.
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First of all, what led you to write the book?
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Was it your experience, what you learned along the way, what you wanted to help other
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parents do?
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Go ahead.
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So at the beginning we said, I wasn't homeschooled, I went to a public school and I went to
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college eventually to become a school teacher.
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So I was a public school teacher for nine years and as soon as we had our older daughter,
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whom you know, which she's sweet, very sweet, the idea was I would leave my job and I
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would be an at-home mom and I always had the idea of homeschooling in my brain because
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I had met some of the pioneer families that started in 1984 and their kids are amazing
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and I thought, well, that's a cool thing, you know.
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Back in my husband about it when my girl, so my second daughter was born 11 and a half
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months later.
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I've got these Irish twins and talked to him about it.
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He liked the idea but he didn't know anything about it and his parents were school teachers.
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He didn't want to offend his parents so there's that whole thing.
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But eventually through really God's providence, he came around and we were both completely
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sold on it.
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So homeschooled our girls all the way through, never gave it a second thought and then
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they graduated together.
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My older daughter held herself back to graduate with her little sister.
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They graduated together in 2020.
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We all know it was going on in 2020.
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And at that time, Kathy Cook, who is the author of Eight Great Smarts, among several other
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books, had reached out to me and said, Tina, will you write a homeschool take?
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Not like rewriting the concept but like application for homeschoolers to her theory.
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It's not her theory but the theory that she wrote about with Eight Great Smarts.
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And at the time, it was right before my girls graduation and I said, no, I've got to
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finish well.
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And then she came back around to me in, I guess it would have been like October of 2020.
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And Moody publishes her books and Moody wanted to publish this one.
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And so I asked my husband and he said, yeah, go for it.
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You know, we'll just use the crock pot between now and whenever because you'll appreciate
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this as an author.
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I was, I agreed to do it early to mid-October and my deadline was December 7th of the same
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year.
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Oh my goodness.
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I know.
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How many chapters is it?
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It's 160 pages.
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So it's smaller.
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I forget how many chapters.
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Maybe eight.
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They wanted to make it smaller by design because homeschool mothers are busy.
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But you know, it was still content.
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And the reason was I had been a student of Kathy Cooks when she was a professor at UW
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and she taught that theory of eight great smarts, eight ways that each person is intelligent.
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And I had basically raised my children on those principles because I knew about it from
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the time I was a student.
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So when you were in college, you said she was one of your professors?
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Yes, at UW Green Bay.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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And then she moved on and is doing the thing she does now.
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Yeah.
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Amazing.
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Yeah.
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So I knew the theory well.
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And my children on it, and obviously I'd been in the homeschool world for quite a while
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at that point.
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Yeah.
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And the idea was can I apply those principles for homeschooling parents so that they can
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see how God has wired their kids and homeschool more effectively?
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Wow.
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So friends, we're talking to Tina Holland back and you can find the book on Amazon.
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The forward is also written by Kathy Cook.
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So wanted to ask you about this, you know, when you were teaching, you said you'd
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have nine years?
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Nine years.
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So you must have seen some things in curriculum or things that as a Bible-believing Christian,
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whether it was history, science, biology, whatever, there were some things that you thought,
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I just have a hard time with this.
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Am I wrong?
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Did you see anything?
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Of course I did.
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I taught English as a second language.
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So I was teaching English to immigrant kids.
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And I feel like my experience was pretty different to like a mainstream teacher.
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I had first-generation Southeast Asian and Hispanic kids and their parents.
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And honestly, it was an amazing experience.
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They were wonderful people, really loved being here, wanted to 25 years ago, 30 years
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ago, they wanted to integrate into the country.
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It was just a really wonderful experience.
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And I was a little bit rogue and so I didn't use a lot of the curriculum.
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I made up my own stuff.
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That's funny.
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But I did see it because, you know, my students would come to me with their science book
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or different things from the other teachers.
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We had one Bible-believing person on staff, a science teacher, and he got written up every
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year for saying simply, evolution is not fact.
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It is a theory, but let's address other theories, and he got written up every year.
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So I did see that, and that was a huge motivation for my desire to not want my children in the
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system.
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Yeah.
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And that's, you know what, we can't emphasize that enough, friends.
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If you've got a young family, if you've got young children, there is not only a disagreement
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with the biblical worldview, there is an intolerance of Christianity, the biblical worldview,
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starting with the existence of God and creation, and you take it down, you know, marriage,
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family, gender, civil government, all these things that are biblical concepts and biblical
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truths that they are just not allowed.
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And it's far worse now than when I left.
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Oh my goodness, yeah.
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So, yeah.
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I'm even when I was in school.
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Anyway, let's, because I come from a family of teachers, both of my parents, my sisters,
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I have an uncle.
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So yeah, all educators, but this, that was 60s and 70s and 80s, and boy has unfortunately
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the education system machine.
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It's the system.
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There are many good Christian people, and otherwise not Christian, but good people teaching
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in the system.
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Sure.
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And it can either wear you out so that you leave, or it can wear you down so you give
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in.
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And I saw some of my colleagues who came at the same time, and they were Bible-believing
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Christians, and suddenly they were wishy-washy.
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Oh no.
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So yeah, it's very dangerous.
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And if that happens to adults, then how much more to children who are not grounded in
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their faith because they're children?
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Yeah.
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So let's talk about that.
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Kids are so impressionable, and you are literally pouring into them in their school age years,
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and they're learning.
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They're developing a worldview.
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Let's talk about what you say is so hard, but so important.
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Pulling older kids that have been maybe in the public schools for however many years,
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two, three, four, five, six, whatever.
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Pulling them out and homeschooling.
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Some parents don't even think that's an option.
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Talk to us about that, Tina.
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Well, it is 100% a legal option in the state of Wisconsin.
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You know, we're taping here in April.
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If a parent is like, I'm done, they can literally pull their child out today.
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Or the day before the end of the school year, it really doesn't matter.
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That varies by state law, but it's a legal option, 100% at any age, and it's a moral and
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ethical option.
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I mean, there's no reason to keep a child in if you feel compelled by the Holy Spirit
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to pull them out.
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And I would hope that that would happen, actually.
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One of the things I do and we'll talk about is consulting, homeschool consulting, and
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I talk to parents throughout Northeast Wisconsin primarily about how to get started homeschooling
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and all of the questions.
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And I talk to a lot of parents who come in and talk to me and they're like, okay, I have
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a fifth grader.
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How do we do this?
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And we walk through it.
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I have a high school junior.
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How do we do this?
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You know, how does he get a transcript and a diploma and all the things and how do I
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meld in what he had in school and all of that?
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But I can tell you one of my favorite stories is a young man and his parents I talked to
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not that long ago, professing believers, and this young man is like a football player
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size.
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So he could he could intimidate anybody, but he would stand up for bullied kids and
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he was getting bullied himself.
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And just the look on his face, he was so downtrodden and his parents could see it.
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And so that's where they came to talk to me.
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By the end of our conversation, he was smiling and happy.
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And then I talked to them a couple of weeks later and his whole demeanor and his whole
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persona had changed.
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And now he knew he could serve the Lord and he didn't have to tolerate what he was putting
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up with in the school.
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Okay.
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So let's talk about the home school loft or actually the curriculum, the database.
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Where is that at homeschoolroadmap.org?
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Correct.
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Yes.
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Let's talk about the database and then we'll go back to the loft when we wrap up.
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Go ahead.
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About 13 years ago, and this kind of, I guess ties into what you said about curriculum as
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well, about 13 years ago, I launched this database.
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It's the home school resource roadmap, homeschoolroadmap.org.
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I didn't intend to do anything of the sort.
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I was just minding my own business, homeschooling my kids, and they were like middle school age.
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And as a former public school teacher, I knew what the common core standards were.
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Dr. DuPesta and I have talked about that.
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So I'm all on board with all of that.
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I was disturbed as a taxpayer, but I thought I homeschool.
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It doesn't affect me, right?
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By 2013, a couple of big name homeschool publishers had come out saying our new version
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is aligned with common core.
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No, no.
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And yes, that sent just shockwaves through the homeschool world.
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A lot of people saying, what is this?
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What can we do about it?
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All of that.
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And people were making assumptions.
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Like, is this common core, is that common core, and making guesses?
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And you know me.
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I'm a no drama mama.
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I'm like, I don't want any of that.
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That's not actually being a good steward of the faith either.
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So famous last words, I said, somebody has to ask the publishers what they're doing.
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Okay, so that became me.
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And I thought at the time there were maybe 300 companies that I'm going to have to reach
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out to, but my girls are middle school.
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They're a little bit independent.
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I can do that.
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And fast forward now, and there's more to the database than just common core now.
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But there are over 7,400 companies on the database.
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These are all publishers of different sizes, different subject areas for different ages
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that homeschoolers can get their material.
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And I'm a little bit OCD.
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So when I got started asking my husband about this, I won't end until I know that everything
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that homeschoolers can use is on there.
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That's amazing.
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So I want to make sure you guys have the website.
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It is homeschoolroadmap.org, homeschoolroadmap.org.
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Okay.
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I just want to make sure I didn't miss anything from my notes here.
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So we've got your book.
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We talked about the road map, talked about pulling kids out that have been in the government
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schools for a while.
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And Christian parents said, you know, it's affecting their faith.
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It's affecting a lot of their home lives, so let's get them out.
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We talked about state laws.
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Let's go back to the homeschool loft, and let's bring it back to the local.
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Tell us about the homeschool loft a little bit more about that.
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Yeah.
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So when I started the homeschool resource road map, it quickly grew from just a list in
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a Facebook group to its own website, right?
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And people started to know, hey, Tina knows something about curriculum.
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Her girls are a little bit older, so I can ask her about home schooling, elementary school,
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because I have middle schoolers at this point.
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And so they say, hey, will you, can we go out to coffee and talk?
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And this was again, like 13 years ago, and I said, sure, I love talking to parents about
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this topic.
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And I was just doing that, again, minding my own business.
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I should know better.
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Even with the book, I was minding my own business.
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I didn't set out to write a book.
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I am a writer, but I didn't set out to write a book.
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And about five years ago, so our fifth anniversary officially of the homeschool loft is coming
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up on May 6th, then we're having a party.
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But May 6th, 2021 is when we started.
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A friend of mine reached out, fellow homeschooler, we'd know in each other kind of in different
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circles, but weren't friends, but just knew each other.
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And she said, my youngest is graduating.
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I want to do something for homeschoolers in this area.
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Will you do something with me?
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And that, she had a physical space at the time, and she said, let's open up something
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for homeschool consulting in this physical space and bless the homeschoolers.
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Now this was 2021.
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We did not do it because of COVID.
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But we did know that more and more families were pulling their kids because of COVID.
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So it was God's Providence and God's timing on that, right?
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Yes, timing, yeah.
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I mean, that fall of 2021 was God's and homeschool numbers had gone from 20,000, typically it
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had been at 20,000 for many years, that first fall to 32,000 in one year.
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Wow.
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So people were banging down our door.
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And the idea was, so that's when I officially started doing homeschool consulting and seminars
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and that type of thing, but I had been doing it informally for several years prior.
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But I put a name on it, we put a website on it, and we just started that process about
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five years ago.
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Okay.
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I'm just looking at some of the things you can click on.
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You got a newsletter, law, Wisconsin homeschool, this is for if you're in Wisconsin now.
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Blog posts, services, friends, calendars, there's a lot of just click on the links for the
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information there.
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There's a map.
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So what about other people that are reaching out from other states?
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Would you advise them to check their state laws because you pretty much said there's
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laws in every state.
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Yes, every homeschool law, are they that different?
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Every homeschool law is different.
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Wisconsin has one of the best in terms of parental freedom.
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How did that happen?
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Because we're kind of like a blue state, you know, maybe we were a little bit more red
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back in 1984.
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I don't know.
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Okay.
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Yes, you're right.
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But it has never been changed.
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What I have been told from my friends who were in that first generation is for about
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the first 10 years after the homeschool law passed every year, there was an attack by
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somebody in the legislator to try to add regulation and then they finally gave up because
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parents would come down to Madison and droves and fight it.
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Good.
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As well, they should have, right?
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And the same kind of process has happened in every state.
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The parents get together, they find someone to write a bill and they lobby and but depending
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on the climate in different states, they can get different things.
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So Wisconsin has broad-based freedom, there are laws.
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And so it's not like we have a free reign.
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There's accountability.
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But the accountability for believers is to the Lord and the accountability for everybody
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is, do you want to be a parent of integrity?
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You're saying you're going to do X, Y and Z, you need to do it.
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But we don't have a requirement that anybody checks us in Wisconsin, which is great.
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Other states, you have to have an evaluation once a year, you have to do standardized testing,
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you need to have the approval of the local public school district, which you can imagine.
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What?
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I mean, they do it, but grudgingly, right?
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And they just put their neck on homeschoolers.
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I have many times said, I think Pennsylvania and upstate New York at least and let's say Massachusetts
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would be wonderful places to visit, but I would never live there.
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They have the worst homeschool laws in the country, and I'm sorry for people who live there,
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but it's bad.
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Well, they're intolerant of the biblical worldviews, so it's no wonder they would
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want kids in the government schools.
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Right.
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Or even parental freedom for people who aren't Christians who homeschool, right?
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They don't believe in parental freedom.
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People in those states and other states believe that the government owns our children.
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And so they want that kind of control.
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So we mentioned biblical authority earlier, and I don't run out of time.
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I just thought about this verse, and you know what most of our audience probably is very
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familiar with Deuteronomy 6 versus 4 through 8.
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Hero, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.
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You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all
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your might.
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These words, which I'm commanding you today, shall be on your heart.
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And then verse 7 is the big one, you shall teach them diligently to your sons, and
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shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you
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lie down, and when you rise up.
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And I don't think that leaves anything out, Tina, except for when you're eating.
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Well, and we can do that too, right?
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You can talk with your mouthful, don't talk with your mouthful.
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That is a key verse, you know, people say, where does it talk about homeschooling in the
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Bible?
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Well, it's all over the place because the word isn't in there, but of course educating
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children.
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Parents are supposed to be, and it's not just their spiritual well-being, but if their
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cognitive skills are not up to stuff, all the things you can't pour in spiritually,
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right?
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I know you've had Israel Wayne on the show, he is one of my favorite homeschool authors.
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He wrote a book, education does God have an opinion, and I don't know if you're talking
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about that, but everybody should get that because he lays out from Scripture, not just
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that verse, but verse after, verse after, verse, there's really no permission for a Christian
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to have your kids in an anti-Christian environment day in and day out.
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And parents mean well, you know, they really, really truly do.
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And there's been research by Barna that shows that 15% of kids from Christian homes who
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go to public school will come out with their faith intact, and they will be fine.
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Fifteen.
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Fifteen plus five.
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That's it.
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That means 85% of kids from Christian homes, and we see it in our culture, walk away from
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the Lord.
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So, I could not in good conscience play that roulette wheel with my kids.
26:26
Yeah, yeah.
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And understand what's coming against kids today, it's, you've got Hollywood, you've got
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government, you've got corporations and media, social media.
26:38
So if you do not have your kids schooled and educated at home, that's the public education
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system is just another one of those things that's going to take God out of your kids'
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lives and give them all kinds of other worldly stuff.
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We're down to the last minute, Tina, but this is an important topic.
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I'm so glad you came in today.
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Didn't go by fast.
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Oh, yeah, I'm like, wow, we're done already.
26:59
Yeah, see, it flows.
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It goes by very fast, but friends, I just want to give their websites again real quick.
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First of all, her book, Eight Smarts for Home Schoolers, and then HomeSchoolRoadMap.org.
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And if you're in Northeast Wisconsin, you can go to homeschoolloft.com and get a hold
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of Tina if you have any questions.
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Very important topic.
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Thank you for coming in.
27:23
I'm so glad we did this.
27:24
Are you glad?
27:25
I am.
27:26
Thank you so much.
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God bless you.
27:28
Friends, we appreciate you sharing the podcast.
27:30
We love it that you're praying for us too.
27:33
Please continue to pray for this ministry.
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God bless you.
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And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.
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We'll see you next time.