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Do video games produce real-life violence? · Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know
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Speaker 1: from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to
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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. This Charles W. Chuck Bryant.
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Speaker 1: You can probably hear his forehead and scraping against his
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Speaker 1: mic cover. You do not feel like doing us today? Do? No,
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Speaker 1: We're gonna do it anyway. I mean, yes, we do
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Speaker 1: not know we do? You can't affirm with the negative,
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Speaker 1: yes we don't. Well, there it is Chuck, the cleverest
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Speaker 1: banter we will ever have. Um. Hey, how are you?
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Speaker 1: How are you? I'm fine, man, I'm feeling aggressive. I
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Speaker 1: want to punch something. You've been playing violent video games,
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Speaker 1: and I've been reading about people playing violent video games.
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Speaker 1: It's apparently the magic bullet. It's what really makes you
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Speaker 1: aggressive reading about that kind of thing. Oh, reading about yeah,
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Speaker 1: articles on that sure. Yeah, so we need to be
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Speaker 1: watching out for um. Yeah, people who read like parenting
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Speaker 1: sections on like HuffPo or MSNBC, or like some of
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Speaker 1: the most violent criminals now because of those um, Chuck,
1:13
Speaker 1: are you familiar with a little country called Germany? Mm?
1:18
Speaker 1: Hmm yeah, old Uh is that that's Russian, isn't it?
1:24
Speaker 1: That's Germany. I don't know if you've noticed this' not chuck,
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Speaker 1: but over the last few weeks, I've gotten increasingly dumber.
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Speaker 1: Have you picked up on that? Who you have? I have? UM?
1:35
Speaker 1: I don't really know. My the frequency of mispronouncing words
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Speaker 1: has just gone up dramatically, which is really saying something. Um.
1:44
Speaker 1: Uh getting language is wrong, as I just did. That's
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Speaker 1: a big one. Uh fallen asleep in the middle of
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Speaker 1: stuff like I'm about to right now. Okay, Uh, chuck,
1:54
Speaker 1: you've heard of Germany? Uh. In two thousand six, late
1:58
Speaker 1: two thousand six, there was some thing of a fairly
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Speaker 1: radical proposal that came up from the representatives of Bavaria
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Speaker 1: and Lower Saxony get those two together. Things happen normally,
2:10
Speaker 1: not in this case, but normally. The representatives proposed a
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Speaker 1: bill that would offer fines of uh. Well, I don't
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Speaker 1: know how much the fines were, but the penalty of
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Speaker 1: jail time up to twelve months for um may I
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Speaker 1: quote uh, cruel violence on humans or human looking characters
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Speaker 1: inside games. So creating a game inside games, yes, said, yeah,
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Speaker 1: that's funny. Creating a game where there is violence violence
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Speaker 1: can happen, or playing a video game and inflicting violence
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Speaker 1: virtual violence could get your twelve months in jail, according
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Speaker 1: to these guys. So you can't play Call of Duty
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Speaker 1: you would spend the rest of your life in jail.
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Speaker 1: If these guys had had their rather radical resolution passed,
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Speaker 1: it felt flat on its face. But the whole thing
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Speaker 1: was in reaction to um the the prior month, the
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Speaker 1: spree killing or almost I guess free maiming by Sebastian Boss,
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Speaker 1: who was eighteen. He was the worst school shooter Germany
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Speaker 1: ever had. Any He wounded thirty seven people, didn't kill anybody, Um,
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Speaker 1: but he did kill himself. You you you remember he
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Speaker 1: played counter Strike a lot. I find it interesting that
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Speaker 1: he shot thirty seven people and didn't kill anyone. I'll
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Speaker 1: bet he found that something other than interesting. Did he
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Speaker 1: try to just wound? No, I know that's probably dumb question. No,
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Speaker 1: he went on a rampage and he just missed. Okay,
3:49
Speaker 1: so anyway, this is god he well yeah, he um,
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Speaker 1: but he played a lot of counter Strike. That was
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Speaker 1: his big thing. And nowadays is you you have grown
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Speaker 1: up and since the nine and you've been paying attention,
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Speaker 1: so you know that anytime there's a spree shooting at
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Speaker 1: a school by a teenager, one of the first things
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Speaker 1: that comes out is what their violent video game of
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Speaker 1: choice was. And legislation like this out of Germany. Is
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Speaker 1: it is radical like putting someone in jail for acts
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Speaker 1: of virtual violence? Um, but it's it's getting to be
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Speaker 1: par for the course, you know, which leads us to
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Speaker 1: a very big question, though, before you start throwing people
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Speaker 1: in jail for playing video games, before creating video games,
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Speaker 1: we have to prove whether or not video games is
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Speaker 1: especially violent ones cause real life violence. And as I
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Speaker 1: learned after reading this article, the jury is very much
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Speaker 1: still out on that. Yeah, although both sides have very
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Speaker 1: persuasive arguments, and I think you should explore buff Um,
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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go ahead and say it's probably hard
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Speaker 1: to prove anything when it comes to this. Why. Well,
5:02
Speaker 1: because of all the reasons we're going to mention, it's
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Speaker 1: it's a very complicated issue. Yeah, Um, whether or not
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Speaker 1: that was the thing that pushed someone over the edge,
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Speaker 1: or whether or not it was an inspiration, whether or
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Speaker 1: not it had nothing to do with it. It's uh,
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Speaker 1: it's tough to prove something like that, right, And there's
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Speaker 1: a lot of people who are like, yes, school shooters
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Speaker 1: are horrifying, They're terrifying. The idea that your kid could
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Speaker 1: go to school and get shot and killed by a
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Speaker 1: classmate on a rampage, that's that that would terrify anybody.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, of course you want to get to the
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Speaker 1: root of it. But a lot of people are saying,
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Speaker 1: don't stop at video games. Even the a p A,
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Speaker 1: The American Psychological Association, UM, who are very much in
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Speaker 1: favor of the idea that violent video games cause real
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Speaker 1: life violence, say, don't just stop at video games, like
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Speaker 1: that's one part of a larger hole, and we've not
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Speaker 1: figured it out because video games. You can just lay
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Speaker 1: that at the feet of one thing and go back
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Speaker 1: to work. Let your let your kids go back to
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Speaker 1: playing video games. Yeah, I gotta quote, I was gonna
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Speaker 1: hang onto this might as well read it though. UM.
6:08
Speaker 1: There's a book written called Grand Theft Childhood, The Surprising
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Speaker 1: Truth about Violent video Games and what Parents can do,
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Speaker 1: And this is by Lawrence Kutner and Cheryl Olsen, and
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Speaker 1: they are co directors of the Harvard Medical School Center
6:21
Speaker 1: for Mental Health and media. They wrote this book. Um,
6:26
Speaker 1: and they have a guy that they interviewed, a psychologist
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Speaker 1: who specializes in media research called Guy Cumberbatch. Wow, it
6:34
Speaker 1: sounds like a Simpson's character. He's real though, Um And
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Speaker 1: he says, uh, and I'm gonna quote. The real puzzle
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Speaker 1: is that anyone looking at the research evidence in this
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Speaker 1: field could draw any conclusions about the pattern, let alone
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Speaker 1: argue with such confidence and even passion that demonstrates the
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Speaker 1: harmon violence on television, in film, and in video games.
6:53
Speaker 1: While test of statistical significance are a vital tool of
6:57
Speaker 1: the social sciences, they seem to have been more often
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Speaker 1: used in this field as instruments of torture on the
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Speaker 1: data until it confesses something which could justify publication in
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Speaker 1: a scientific journal. So basically, he's, in a very verbose way,
7:13
Speaker 1: kind of said, what you're saying is that it's easy
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Speaker 1: to scapegoat something like a video game by looking at
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Speaker 1: um anecdotal research. It is very easy. Um. And Also,
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Speaker 1: I think part of the reason why school shooters not
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Speaker 1: not just because they're so sensational they are, sure, also
7:35
Speaker 1: because most if not all of them did play violent
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Speaker 1: video games, but also because the school shooting rampage so
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Speaker 1: closely mirrors video game action even to the casual observer.
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Speaker 1: Um that I think like it's something that's really been
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Speaker 1: zeroed in on. Well, the army uses it for training,
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Speaker 1: you know, and so it's bound to be Uh, it's
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Speaker 1: bound to put you in that headspace which makes a
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Speaker 1: lot of sense. Sure, which is that's an argument on
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Speaker 1: the side of um people who say that, yes, video games,
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Speaker 1: violent video games create real life violence. So let's let's
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Speaker 1: explore that. Let's look at the the side that says yes, obviously,
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Speaker 1: ding Bat, if you play violent video games, you're going
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Speaker 1: to be violent. And this isn't new. By the way,
8:23
Speaker 1: we should point out that like before video games, it
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Speaker 1: was laid at the feet of TV, well, comic books
8:29
Speaker 1: before that, even before that. And I wondered, though, if
8:32
Speaker 1: you go back far enough, the media is a fairly
8:34
Speaker 1: recent thing, at least as far as like entertainment media.
8:39
Speaker 1: So say the advent of radio, big radio in like
8:43
Speaker 1: the twenties. Say, what did anybody blame violence on before that? Uh?
8:51
Speaker 1: Probably the real reason, which is that some people are sociopaths. Well,
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Speaker 1: I think you you make an excellent point, Chuck, What
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Speaker 1: what you're saying, I think I tend to agree with
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Speaker 1: is that's possible in in everybody, and then probably more
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Speaker 1: possible in some of us than others. So is it
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Speaker 1: just a convergence of large public schools where you have
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Speaker 1: a lot of people who you don't like sitting like
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Speaker 1: ducks in one place, and converging with access easy access
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Speaker 1: to guns? Is that all the school shooter is. It's
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Speaker 1: pretty complicated issue. Okay, so go ahead and sorry about that.
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Speaker 1: That's all right? UM, I guess we can sign a
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Speaker 1: couple of more cases that in the media at least
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Speaker 1: have placed the blame on on video games UM. In
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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, in Alabama, Devon Moore famously ah
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Speaker 1: was arrested for car theft UM suspicion and he's eighteen.
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Speaker 1: Brought him into the station to book him, and he
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Speaker 1: kind of went nuts. He attacked the cop, stole his gun,
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Speaker 1: shot him, shot another cop, went down the hall, shot
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Speaker 1: at nine one one dispatch in the head, then grabbed
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Speaker 1: the squad car keys and took off in squad car.
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Speaker 1: That's crazy. And and what game did he play? He
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Speaker 1: played Grand Theft Auto, which is pretty much how that
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Speaker 1: game goes down, And reportedly after he was arrested. He
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Speaker 1: even said, quote life as a video game, everybody's got
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Speaker 1: to die sometime. And he was convicted and sentenced to death,
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Speaker 1: and I could not find out if he's still on
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Speaker 1: death row or if he was put to death. It's
10:24
Speaker 1: so frustrating when you can't find out something that should
10:26
Speaker 1: be so easy to find out. Did you try the
10:28
Speaker 1: Alabama's Department of Corrections website. No, I mean I was
10:31
Speaker 1: gonna call somebody, but it just ran out of time.
10:34
Speaker 1: So at any rate, he was convicted, an appealed, and
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Speaker 1: I think that appeal was denied. But um, when this
10:39
Speaker 1: happens a lot of times, there are lawsuits filed. In
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Speaker 1: the case of Columbine, one of the wife of a
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Speaker 1: teacher there, um sued wh she sue. She sued Sony
10:51
Speaker 1: and Nintendo and Time Warner and Palm Pictures because, Uh,
10:56
Speaker 1: Clibold and Harris had also watched The Basketball Die. Yeah,
11:00
Speaker 1: you remember that party. But what's strange is that that
11:05
Speaker 1: movie came out and with the late nineties, but the
11:08
Speaker 1: Basketball Diaries were written by Jim Carroll and like the seventies,
11:11
Speaker 1: maybe in the sixties, and people were thinking about doing
11:15
Speaker 1: that back then obviously, well and also wonder and boy,
11:19
Speaker 1: we're gonna be all over the place here, but also
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Speaker 1: wonder about what constitutes as far as the lawsuit goes,
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Speaker 1: a negative correlation, Like what if someone made a movie
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Speaker 1: about the Columbine massacre and some kid watched that and
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Speaker 1: then later on did his own thing, like if something,
11:39
Speaker 1: you know, even if that movie decries it and shows
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Speaker 1: the repercussions, which is one of the big points that
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Speaker 1: a lot of parents make, because these video games don't
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Speaker 1: show the repercussions of these actions. It's all just fantasy.
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Speaker 1: So like, where do you draw the line there as
11:54
Speaker 1: far as the lawsuit goes? Well, that's also a really
11:56
Speaker 1: good question, like where do you draw the line as
11:57
Speaker 1: far as legislation goes, Because what we're talking about here
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Speaker 1: basically is say, ultimately, the idea that if video games
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Speaker 1: cause violence in just some people banning them all together.
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Speaker 1: It's the same thing like we did with booze and prohibitions.
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Speaker 1: There are some alcoholics who couldn't help themselves to the
12:16
Speaker 1: rest of us who weren't alcoholics could just give it up,
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Speaker 1: and let's just do that, right, But are you gonna
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Speaker 1: ban movies and TV and comic books and everywhere else
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Speaker 1: that has any kind of violence portrayed. Art think, So
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Speaker 1: I don't think that's ever going to be able to happen,
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Speaker 1: And no, I don't. I think ultimately, if you follow
12:35
Speaker 1: that argument to its logical conclusion, now you come to
12:38
Speaker 1: where you and I are sitting, which is, no, there's
12:41
Speaker 1: some crazy people out there and some are kids. All right,
12:45
Speaker 1: So should we talk about a little bit of the
12:48
Speaker 1: studies in the science behind it. Yeah, So like on
12:51
Speaker 1: the in the camp where they where they think that yes,
12:54
Speaker 1: violent video games cause violence. There problem, Their most persuasive
12:58
Speaker 1: argument is that, yes, TV has been linked to aggressive
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Speaker 1: behavior in kids. Right, TV violence has been through other studies.
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Speaker 1: They've been doing this for years and years and years.
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Speaker 1: Video games are relatively new, but um by extension, video
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Speaker 1: games should be even more prone degenerating violence in the
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Speaker 1: player because playing video games is more immersive than watching television.
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Speaker 1: You're interacting, right. Also though they're based on the reward
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Speaker 1: system of learning, right conditioning exactly, So if I if
13:37
Speaker 1: I shoot you and behind you is like this magic donut,
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Speaker 1: and I get like, I get another life once I
13:43
Speaker 1: grab the magic donut, right, I'm gonna shoot you, and
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn the next time that I need to
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Speaker 1: shoot you again to get that magic donut. Last time
13:50
Speaker 1: I got the reward. That's a pretty broad basic example,
13:54
Speaker 1: but the the whole point of video games is based on,
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Speaker 1: like you said, classical conditioning. They should have a podcaster
14:01
Speaker 1: game where it's like us and Mark Marrin and Ira
14:04
Speaker 1: Glass and Jesse Thorne and we're all like out there
14:07
Speaker 1: trying to kill each other, all right. I think that
14:10
Speaker 1: would do us all a little good. Judge Judge John
14:13
Speaker 1: Hodgman like presides over the whole thing. I don't know though,
14:17
Speaker 1: Adam Carola going down, Yeah, who would you take on first?
14:24
Speaker 1: Probably um you? It would be like um Golden Eye
14:31
Speaker 1: and just get trapped in the corner and just keep
14:34
Speaker 1: shooting me and waiting for me to come back. And
14:36
Speaker 1: one of those things where we're supposed to be teammates
14:38
Speaker 1: and like, you know, you can kill your own guy
14:40
Speaker 1: sometimes and what call of duty? Right? Um? I think
14:43
Speaker 1: a lot of those games where you can partner up,
14:45
Speaker 1: you can still shoot your partners. You used to not
14:47
Speaker 1: be the case. Oh it would just like fire by
14:50
Speaker 1: you or something. Yeh. You just sit there and like
14:52
Speaker 1: kind of move a little bit, but like nothing happened
14:54
Speaker 1: to you, It didn't have any effect on your life.
14:56
Speaker 1: Oh good stuff. So those are two big ones there.
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Speaker 1: Immersive and they use classical conditioning. What else? Why else
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Speaker 1: would a video game cause violence more be more likely
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Speaker 1: to cause violence than just play on TV. Well, they
15:10
Speaker 1: did one study where they actually hook kids up to
15:12
Speaker 1: uh it didn't actually say what they just said they
15:15
Speaker 1: scanned the brain. So I'm guessing an m R. I
15:18
Speaker 1: UM in two thousand six at Indiana University and they
15:22
Speaker 1: UM have them play two games, A Need for Speed
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Speaker 1: Underground and Medal of Honor colon frontline One is non
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Speaker 1: violent Need for Speed I guess, and Medal of Honor
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Speaker 1: is violent. First person shooters were talking about if you
15:35
Speaker 1: don't know what that is, carl out from under a rock,
15:38
Speaker 1: But it's when you are. It's the point of view
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Speaker 1: of the person walking around shooting people. Is you? Um
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Speaker 1: And the brain scans say showed that the kids who
15:50
Speaker 1: played the violent game showed increased activity in the amygdala,
15:54
Speaker 1: which stimulates emotion, decreased activity in the prefrontal cortext or
15:59
Speaker 1: lobe regulates inhibition and self control. Right, you realize what
16:04
Speaker 1: you just described, right, zombie zombie. I think you're gonna
16:08
Speaker 1: say that. But my question is is, like, wouldn't it
16:11
Speaker 1: be more cause of concern if there was like zero
16:13
Speaker 1: emotion going on. If these kids are playing these violent
16:16
Speaker 1: games and make it like shut down, that would freak
16:19
Speaker 1: me out. It's a really good point because the whole
16:21
Speaker 1: idea behind video games is to trick the brain into
16:24
Speaker 1: thinking that it's actually experiencing the game play. Right. I
16:28
Speaker 1: get like I don't play much anymore, but when I
16:30
Speaker 1: play Call of Duty, I would way get into it
16:32
Speaker 1: and like my heart would increase, and like if someone
16:35
Speaker 1: snuck up behind me and it was like, you know,
16:37
Speaker 1: it puts you there. But that's to me, like the
16:40
Speaker 1: fun of those games. Well, yeah, it's the point of them. Right,
16:42
Speaker 1: So your fighter fight or flight response is aroused, Um,
16:47
Speaker 1: your heart rates up, like you said, you're perspiring, you're jumpie,
16:50
Speaker 1: you know, But how does that translate to video games?
16:54
Speaker 1: And I guess an even bigger question is how long
16:57
Speaker 1: does that state of arousal last? Like if it did
16:59
Speaker 1: trans violent, Really, the only person who's in trouble is
17:03
Speaker 1: you know, your big brother or your best friend who
17:06
Speaker 1: you're playing next to, who just killed you and you
17:09
Speaker 1: lean over and you punch them like, yeah, I've done
17:11
Speaker 1: that before. Well that happens. Actually, I saw a bunch
17:13
Speaker 1: of cases where and it wasn't just violent video games.
17:16
Speaker 1: It was like people playing John Madden. Uh would like
17:20
Speaker 1: one guy Wisconsin, I think hit his buddy with a
17:23
Speaker 1: lead pipe, and then you know this one guy in
17:26
Speaker 1: England attacked a kid who killed him and call of duty.
17:28
Speaker 1: But they're like, these people are crazy and competitive and
17:32
Speaker 1: they might do the same thing playing monopoly. So maybe
17:35
Speaker 1: it's not violent. It's competitive video games make you violent.
17:41
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what we should be looking at. Mak So, right,
17:44
Speaker 1: let's see what else, Chuck, Oh, I've got one for you.
17:48
Speaker 1: These studies are just so awesome. Um So, especially after
17:53
Speaker 1: call him, I get the impression that there was like
17:55
Speaker 1: just a rash of studies like this. And then now
17:59
Speaker 1: the end is to go back and do meta analysis
18:02
Speaker 1: of these studies. But um one study found that it
18:07
Speaker 1: took kids and scored them um with like basically inherent hostility, right,
18:15
Speaker 1: And what it found was that kids with the lowest
18:18
Speaker 1: hostility score they were just the nicest little kids. When
18:22
Speaker 1: they played violent video games, they were ten times more
18:26
Speaker 1: likely to get in a physical fight than the kids
18:30
Speaker 1: with the lowest hostility scores who didn't play violent video games.
18:33
Speaker 1: So it was like they were thirty eight percent third
18:36
Speaker 1: they were, they had a thirty eight percent likelihood he
18:38
Speaker 1: getting a fight compared to like four so almost ten
18:41
Speaker 1: times right, and then even crazier according to the study, Um,
18:45
Speaker 1: there the kids with the lowest hostility score who played
18:48
Speaker 1: violent video games were more likely to get in a
18:51
Speaker 1: fight than the kids with the highest hostility scores who
18:54
Speaker 1: didn't play violent video games at least, so it would
18:56
Speaker 1: make nice kids bad and bad kids who didn't played
19:00
Speaker 1: it would just they would maintain that level or whatever.
19:03
Speaker 1: The nice kids who played them were worse than the
19:06
Speaker 1: bad kids, worse than the worst bad kids. Interesting, Yeah, so,
19:10
Speaker 1: like studies like these are coming out and it's making
19:13
Speaker 1: it like more and more clear, Like yes, all right, um,
19:16
Speaker 1: video games do cause violence, but there's a lot of
19:20
Speaker 1: ground left to cover before that link can be made,
19:24
Speaker 1: if it's ever made, And there's a lot of people
19:28
Speaker 1: trying to put the reins on this, especially once we
19:29
Speaker 1: are saying, well, you're you're looking, you're barking up the
19:33
Speaker 1: wrong tree, Like maybe, so maybe you're even right. But
19:36
Speaker 1: this isn't it. This isn't the one thing that's the problem.
19:40
Speaker 1: So what are some of the criticisms of this science,
19:43
Speaker 1: I guess explaining or showing a link between the two. Uh. Well,
19:49
Speaker 1: one is that it's a lot of anecdotal stories. Um
19:53
Speaker 1: this uh the same guy Cumberbatch says, um the strong
19:58
Speaker 1: link between video games violence and real world violence, and
20:00
Speaker 1: the conclusion that it leads to social social isolation, poor
20:05
Speaker 1: interpersonal skills are drawn from bad and or irrelevant research,
20:10
Speaker 1: muddle headed thinking, and unfounded simplistic news reports. So that,
20:15
Speaker 1: for instance, in the Malvo DC sniper case, Lee Malvo,
20:20
Speaker 1: remember that his attorney actually argued that he trained quote
20:25
Speaker 1: unquote himself to kill by playing Halo on Xbox. Uh.
20:31
Speaker 1: He was even quoted as saying he's trained and desensitized
20:34
Speaker 1: with video games to shoot human forms over and over.
20:38
Speaker 1: In actuality, Lee Malvo trained by shooting paper plates with
20:44
Speaker 1: human faces drawn on them with real guns. Bye, what's
20:48
Speaker 1: his face? Who's the guy? I can't remember his name?
20:51
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, And in Halo, you shoot this weird
20:56
Speaker 1: looking space gun at like giant bug. So this was
21:02
Speaker 1: even brought up in a court of law that like Halo,
21:04
Speaker 1: led him to be a DC sniper, So it's definitely
21:07
Speaker 1: a lot of sensationalism going on. Um. And another thing
21:10
Speaker 1: they point out is that, ah, video game popularity and
21:15
Speaker 1: youth violence has been going in the opposite direction statistically.
21:19
Speaker 1: Since um it reached a peak, violent juvenile crime reached
21:23
Speaker 1: a peak in has been in decline ever since. Between
21:28
Speaker 1: ninety four and two thousand one, arrest for murder, forcible rape, robbery,
21:32
Speaker 1: and aggravated assault fell fort and had the lowest juvenile
21:36
Speaker 1: arrest rate for violent crimes since the early eighties. So ah,
21:43
Speaker 1: you know, that seems to fly in the face of
21:45
Speaker 1: the research at least. And the reason also people keep
21:47
Speaker 1: picking on kids is not just because there's school shooters,
21:50
Speaker 1: but the one of one of the assumptions that people's
21:54
Speaker 1: trying to prove that yes, um, violent video games caused
21:58
Speaker 1: violence is that if you are a child, you still
22:00
Speaker 1: have a developing brain, so you're gonna be more susceptible
22:04
Speaker 1: of that kind of classical conditioning that a violent video
22:08
Speaker 1: game provides. The thing is is like, as of I
22:12
Speaker 1: think two thousand and eleven, a survey of kids played
22:16
Speaker 1: video games, the average is about nine hours a week
22:20
Speaker 1: and then a great many of those video games are violent.
22:25
Speaker 1: So the numbers like that, it makes you wonder why
22:28
Speaker 1: there aren't more school shooters. Why, to make this point
22:31
Speaker 1: in this book, not a lot more common. Yeah, why
22:33
Speaker 1: isn't the world like millions of people play these games.
22:36
Speaker 1: Why isn't it just violent, chaotic world out there? All this?
22:40
Speaker 1: I might say this so again though, we should, we
22:43
Speaker 1: should kind of bring it back a little bit, like
22:44
Speaker 1: it's the school shooters are just like the most sensational
22:48
Speaker 1: um thing to point to. They're also worried that like
22:52
Speaker 1: kids are like pump punching each other more or you know, um,
22:57
Speaker 1: knifeing each other more. And the idea behind that is
23:00
Speaker 1: there's this thing called script theory, where um we it's
23:06
Speaker 1: it's an extension of this thing called affect theory. Right,
23:09
Speaker 1: We're basically like something happens to us, we have uh,
23:12
Speaker 1: an emotional reaction to something, and it triggers a response,
23:16
Speaker 1: a prescribed response, and it's it's fairly specific to the
23:20
Speaker 1: human being, but it's also kind of predictable well over time.
23:24
Speaker 1: Because remember, the brain is very lazy and likes to
23:26
Speaker 1: chunk things and do things as efficiently as possible. The
23:29
Speaker 1: same thing happens, Um, whenever we we come across the
23:34
Speaker 1: same emotional stimulus, right where we build a script. Okay,
23:40
Speaker 1: so if somebody comes up to us and we have
23:44
Speaker 1: been trained to or we've produced a script through violent
23:47
Speaker 1: video games where if somebody's coming at us, we have
23:50
Speaker 1: to shoot it. The idea behind script, they very crudely
23:53
Speaker 1: put is that, um, we would use violence, it would
23:58
Speaker 1: trigger a violent reaction because we are script for dealing
24:03
Speaker 1: with this has been built and compiled through violence through
24:07
Speaker 1: violent video games. Interesting, it is interesting. Um, it's also
24:12
Speaker 1: totally unproven. It's the problem. So, like number one, there's
24:15
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a there's despite all the studies,
24:19
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of scientific data out there that
24:23
Speaker 1: shows yes, violent video games cause violence. Well, they'll study
24:27
Speaker 1: like thirty kids. That's a big problem. Another one is like,
24:30
Speaker 1: how do you quantify violence and video games? How do
24:34
Speaker 1: you say when you're giving people, when you're testing pharmaceuticals,
24:38
Speaker 1: you can get it down to the milligram or microgram
24:41
Speaker 1: or whatever. How do you do that with exposure to
24:43
Speaker 1: violence in a video game? Well, yeah, because there's all
24:46
Speaker 1: kinds of levels of violence from Mario whacking animals on
24:50
Speaker 1: the head with mallets. H And that's That's one of
24:54
Speaker 1: the things that this book points out is that they're
24:57
Speaker 1: kind of getting it wrong with the ratings. The E.
24:59
Speaker 1: S r B is who rates video games ranging from
25:04
Speaker 1: uh early childhood rating, which is the sweetest of all ratings,
25:09
Speaker 1: all the way to mature and adults only. UM And,
25:14
Speaker 1: like I said, one of the problems is that people
25:16
Speaker 1: complain that there are no repercussions in video games, but
25:19
Speaker 1: they say they got it backwards and that um. In
25:23
Speaker 1: the in the lighter rated games, like the dead bodies
25:26
Speaker 1: just disappear instead of showing like this is a dead body,
25:31
Speaker 1: or the blood is like super animated and not realistic. Um.
25:37
Speaker 1: And it's basically saying no, these lighter rated games aren't
25:40
Speaker 1: showing negative consequences. Games that do show that are more
25:43
Speaker 1: likely to be rated M or A, which is adults only,
25:48
Speaker 1: which is interesting I thought so and also um. Another
25:51
Speaker 1: point is that the average gamer these days apparently is
25:54
Speaker 1: thirty so and listen as Mom's space mo, yeah he's
26:00
Speaker 1: He's also probably not out there committing acts of violence either, right. Uh.
26:07
Speaker 1: You know, I will say when I played like a
26:08
Speaker 1: lot of UM, call of duty or what was the
26:12
Speaker 1: driving one again? Grand Theft Auto that like it was
26:17
Speaker 1: the same one I played Tetris. I had like Tetris
26:19
Speaker 1: dreams like it. It gets into your dreams and it
26:21
Speaker 1: like gets into your crawl. And when I'm driving around,
26:25
Speaker 1: you have those thoughts of like, you know, bump the
26:27
Speaker 1: sky off the road and make this move like it's
26:30
Speaker 1: in your head, but you don't do it. You know,
26:33
Speaker 1: like people have thoughts all the time, but that you know,
26:38
Speaker 1: Cleibold and Harris were suicidal, depressed sociopaths. You know, they
26:44
Speaker 1: weren't like just great kids who played college or whatever
26:48
Speaker 1: game they accused them of playing and just decided to
26:50
Speaker 1: shoot up their school. But that's not to say it
26:53
Speaker 1: doesn't have some impact, you know. That's why it's such
26:56
Speaker 1: a tough issue. Yeah, it's definitely not there's not one.
26:59
Speaker 1: I don't think there's one side that's ever gonna be proven, right,
27:02
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be like, yes, Okay, this
27:04
Speaker 1: does have this effect that does have this impact on
27:07
Speaker 1: some people more than others, because it just just from
27:12
Speaker 1: the small amount of games that I've played, Like I
27:15
Speaker 1: know what it's like, Yeah, you get around, you get
27:17
Speaker 1: like excited fight or flight, and then you you start
27:22
Speaker 1: thinking about ways to play it better when you're not
27:25
Speaker 1: playing it. So yeah, it definitely does not It doesn't
27:29
Speaker 1: have just an immediate effect. It definitely extends to the
27:31
Speaker 1: rest of your life. But there is that line, and
27:34
Speaker 1: that's what we need to explore, in my opinion, is
27:37
Speaker 1: where that line is and how does that differ from people,
27:41
Speaker 1: from some people to another, and how do you take
27:42
Speaker 1: people who have the line a lot closer than it
27:45
Speaker 1: should be an extended further out. You, my friend, have
27:48
Speaker 1: hit on it. I think that's basically the summary of
27:51
Speaker 1: this book is we're asking the wrong questions and looking
27:56
Speaker 1: for the wrong uh causes. Basically, um, I'm gonna quote again.
28:03
Speaker 1: Instead of looking for a simple direct relationship, um, in
28:06
Speaker 1: all children, we should be asking ourselves, how might we
28:09
Speaker 1: identify those children who are the greatest risk for being
28:12
Speaker 1: influenced by everything from movies to the freaking news that
28:17
Speaker 1: they watch on TV every night and then put him
28:19
Speaker 1: in jail prematurely? I just said, freaking man, can we
28:23
Speaker 1: do that? Now? I'm pretty hopped up? Uh So, yeah,
28:26
Speaker 1: I think you hit on it. Like you, these games
28:29
Speaker 1: aren't going away. Violent movies aren't going away the History Channel,
28:34
Speaker 1: which shows more violence than anything on television in going away. Um,
28:38
Speaker 1: none of these things are going anywhere, So maybe it's
28:41
Speaker 1: up to the parents to get involved a little more. Yeah,
28:45
Speaker 1: but like you have to stop watching TV to do
28:47
Speaker 1: something like that. Ah, you got anything else right now?
28:51
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Well, it's a tough issue. I
28:54
Speaker 1: get it, you know it is. This is definitely not
28:56
Speaker 1: when we're just gonna explain everything. But I feel like
28:59
Speaker 1: we explained both. It's right, I think so that the
29:02
Speaker 1: people on the pro side saying hey, here's all the
29:04
Speaker 1: science of people on the conside saying hey, you gotta
29:07
Speaker 1: do a little better. Right, Yeah, we'll see where we
29:11
Speaker 1: are in we'll come back here. Okay. If you want
29:15
Speaker 1: to learn more about this, you can type violent video
29:18
Speaker 1: games in the search bart how stuff works dot com.
29:20
Speaker 1: It will bring up this really good article. And uh,
29:23
Speaker 1: I said search bar, which means it's time through the listener. Mate,
29:29
Speaker 1: Josh gonna call this gas chromatography mass spectrometer, explained, of course,
29:35
Speaker 1: remember I brought that up in the body other thing,
29:37
Speaker 1: and I didn't have time to look it up. Luckily
29:40
Speaker 1: we have smart listeners. Um, guys have just heard the
29:42
Speaker 1: Body Oder podcast. Nicely done as always. Um. In the show,
29:46
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you didn't have time to look up
29:48
Speaker 1: gas chromatography mass spectrometer. Is there not an abbreviation for that?
29:54
Speaker 1: We call it gc M s Um, this is exactly
29:58
Speaker 1: the type of situation I'd be glad to help. And
30:00
Speaker 1: he's basically offering his services in the future too. It's
30:03
Speaker 1: like wherever, Like, uh, I don't time, he said, just
30:06
Speaker 1: pick up the phone. I'll explain it to you. So
30:10
Speaker 1: who He's an associate professor of physics at Thomas Moore
30:14
Speaker 1: College in Kentucky. That's awesome, um, And he says in
30:17
Speaker 1: a single sentence, a gas chromatography mass but trometer is
30:21
Speaker 1: essentially a machine for identifying the composition of molecules and
30:25
Speaker 1: a sample, which you clearly presume. In a brief essence,
30:29
Speaker 1: he says this. It has two parts, the gas chromatograph,
30:33
Speaker 1: which essentially breaks a sample into its component molecules and
30:37
Speaker 1: admits them on a delay based on their chemical properties,
30:40
Speaker 1: and then the mass spectrometer, which essentially finds the mass
30:45
Speaker 1: of the molecule. The combination of these processes identifies some
30:49
Speaker 1: molecular makeup. The amount of each type of molecule of
30:53
Speaker 1: the sample. And he said this only and then he
30:56
Speaker 1: had a longer version to which I read, but I'm
30:59
Speaker 1: not free now, and he said. This took me about
31:01
Speaker 1: ten or fifteen minutes to type out. Guys, I hope
31:02
Speaker 1: it encourages you to ask if you need a short
31:06
Speaker 1: overview of some minor detail. My goal in this offer
31:09
Speaker 1: is to maximize a number of times kids are exposed
31:12
Speaker 1: to the idea that the world around me is understandable.
31:16
Speaker 1: And he would be happy to donate his time to
31:18
Speaker 1: help us out in the future. This guy would make
31:20
Speaker 1: a great mascot, It's right. That is Joe Christensen of
31:24
Speaker 1: Thomas Moore College. The fighting jeez, I don't know if
31:29
Speaker 1: they have it sounds like a smart school. I don't
31:31
Speaker 1: know if they have sports. Thomas More, He wasn't the
31:34
Speaker 1: wong with the social contract prest View Hills, Kentucky. Yeah,
31:38
Speaker 1: that's not where the social contract came from, but it's
31:41
Speaker 1: upheld there every day. That's right, Thank you very much,
31:45
Speaker 1: Professor Christensen. Let's say sure, thanks, professor Um and I
31:50
Speaker 1: think we will take you up on your offer at
31:52
Speaker 1: some point. Um. Let's see, uh, if you ever want
31:57
Speaker 1: to explain something to us. We're always in the market
32:00
Speaker 1: for that kind of thing. Specifically, I would love it
32:03
Speaker 1: if somebody can explain to me what's so great about
32:06
Speaker 1: prog rock because I don't get it. Um. You can
32:10
Speaker 1: tweet to us at s y s K podcast, You
32:13
Speaker 1: can go on to Facebook with its stupid timeline at
32:17
Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash stuff you Should Know, and you
32:21
Speaker 1: can email us at Stuff Podcast at Discovery dot com
32:31
Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is
32:33
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