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210. The Real Great Escape · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hello delicious friends and welcome.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: To Who Did What Now? The history podcast that is
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: not your history class with me your host Katie Charlewood,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: history harlot and reader of books and I thought I
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: was just going to be complaining about the lack of
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: voice notes on threads this week. Because voice notes on threads,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I would have a great time with voice notes on threads.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: It used to be there, right? And it seems like
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: they gave it to us just to take it away.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Like I miss voice notes and I have a voice
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: for voice notes. Well, you know that because you're listening
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: to me now. So, but then, then this whole meta
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: one subscription nonsense came out. So like we'd heard rumblings
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: for a while. They said they were going to have
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: this new subscription. because you know how you had all
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: the people wanting to use AI. And I was thinking, super, swell, fantastic.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I don't want to have to deal with AI. All
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: the people that want to use AI, they can do
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: their own thing. They can have like an extra thing
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: that they can deal with. And the rest of us
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: can just live our lives, right? No, of course not.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Of course, it gets worse. Because instead of it being
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: a subscription that you pay for to get access to
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: all the AI stuff, instead, they're just taking away basic
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: features like putting links in Facebook posts like and they
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: want us to pay for that instead and I'm already
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: not feeling super confident with Meta at the best of
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: times now because I'm from Ireland I can't make money
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: from Instagram see I just can't make money from it
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: and that's I post on it all the time so
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: clearly I'm not doing it for the money but when
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I was on Facebook because they're like you always see
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: that you're doing a lot on Facebook join the creator
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: program And you'll earn bonuses and you'll do this and
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: you'll have that and you'll earn money for your content.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: And it's like, cool, I guess. That's nice. And a
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: lot of the time it would be like, you have
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: to post in these groups and I would never do
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: that extra stuff. I would just make my content as
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I have done. I'm teaching history. I will continue to
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: teach history. And then, yeah, I noticed my views were getting...
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's just... I mean, who doesn't...
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: like historical crime, you know what I mean? So I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: was talking about like prison breaks and as you know,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: because I'm talking about prison breaks, but sort of a
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: lot of the stuff, even when I was talking about
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: the remainder of my World War II season is that
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I noticed views were getting suppressed and videos were being
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: taken down and even videos, you know, which have the
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: same content as the educational content that I made with
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: the BBC, right? It's the same information, it's just told
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: slightly differently. And it's being pulled. And I had to
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: fight with Meta to prove that it was on the
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: British curriculum and that it was confirmed by the Holocaust
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Museum and this whole shebang. And anyway, I already have issues,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: which is why I haven't really been posting as much
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: on the socials because I just feel... second by all
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: the meta stuff. And it's like, I understand that you're
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: a company and you want to make money. And they're like, oh, well,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: if we didn't have the algorithm doing what it does,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: all you'd ever have is brands like in your feed.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, but if you're posting chronologically, if you're
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: giving us a chronological feed, then, you know, you have
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: an option to look, oh, well, I can, you know,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: what would be in this time zone? What would be this? Oh,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: so-and-so usually posts during this time and it would kind
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: of show up and you'd be on at the time
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: people were posting. And they're like, oh, what do you
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: want us to do? And we're like, we would like
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: you to show our content to the people that follow us.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: You know, anyway, I'm going off on a big rant
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: and I have more of a rant. So like I
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: said in the last episode, I would talk about Lizzie Borden.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: So I watched the Lizzie Borden story, part of Ryan
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Murphy's Monster series. And my gods, I don't expect much
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: from a man who, On one side, I'm fairly certain
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: he's keeping quality wig manufacturers in business, but on the
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: other side, seems to spend a lot of time fetishising
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: serial killers and stories dripping with misogyny. So there's that. Now,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I don't expect much, you know, from this expanded, not
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: expanded universe, but like this serial killer universe that he's creating. I.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: I hate it. And also, Elizabeth Bathory was framed, first
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: of all. Secondly, Aileen Wuornos has nothing to do with
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden. And three, a lot of the women in
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: the Lizzie Borden story are misrepresented. And also, Beattie, who's
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: playing Lizzie, she is beautiful and very... I mean, that's
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: not to say other people who have played her haven't
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: been beautiful. Christina Ricci played her, and she's gorgeous. But, like,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: you need to look like you belong in Forever. And also,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: in addition, furthermore, I know I talk about quality wigs,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: but what is going on with the maid's, like, 1990s
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: grunge wig? What is going on with that? But you
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: know what? Now, I was a big American Horror Story fan.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed, like, Roanoke Hotel. 1984 was great fun.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: But I find... that when Ryan Murphy focuses on real life,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I think it falls flat for me. And it's kind
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: of seedy. Now, I understand the argument of, like, just
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: let people enjoy things, but as someone who spends a
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: lot of time talking about lived events, when it comes
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: to sensitive topics and people being, you know, murdered, consideration
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: and empathy are a necessary component. And I have a
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: whole issue with many groups within the true crime fandom
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: because they're not actually... interested in true crime per se,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: they're just murder junkies and they're obsessed with the gore
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: of it and as if it's some... There are so
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: many different forms of crime, why people do it, the
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: reasoning for it, whether it's nature, nurture, whether it's part
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: of primary, secondary socialisation, whether it's the culture that they
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: grew up in, whether it's learned behaviour, there are so
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: many contributing factors and it's very, very interesting to And,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: you know, but just to have it consistently boiled down
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: to 40 whacks, you know, 52 stab wounds and, you know,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: it just feels seedy. Just seedy. And I think there's
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: so many ways this story could have been told while
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: still being interesting and still fitting that sort of horror
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: dynamic because it's an axe murder. It's very easy to
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: make that. fall within the parameters of that but I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: mean he very easily could have just made a series
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: of serial killer type shows that were inspired by this
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: true crime case this true crime case and then make
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: it work within his genre but anyway I've been talking
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: for far too long about this I really should have
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: a jibber jabber episode because I'm a horror fan you
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: know but that's neither here nor there even though I'm
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: a big skelty cat I know what you're thinking, you're thinking, Katie, please.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Quit your jabber-jabber and fact me. And fact you I will.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: But first, we've got to get our source on. Stalag
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Luft Drei by Arthur Durand. The Real Great Escape by
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Guy Walters. The War Behind the Wire. The Battle to
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Escape from a German Prison Camp by Jonathan F. Vance.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Nazi Atrocities Against Allied Airmen, Stalag Luftrei and the End
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: of British War Crime Trials by Priscilla Dale Jones. Under
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the Wire by William Ash. And of course, our old favourites,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: biography.com and history.com. Are you sitting comfortably? Good, then let's begin.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: The Great Escape is touted as this kind of action-adventure. Now,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: I blame the novel and the movie, and it's often
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: shown as this very Hollywood-fied, glossy story, and it very
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: much overshadows the truth of the matter. And a lot
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: of what people learn from history is not from school
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: or libraries, but from pop culture. And then... it becomes
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: accepted truth quite a lot of the time.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: Anyone who has had theories, many theories regarding the Tudors
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: and the Yorks, yeah, yeah, Philip.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: O'Gregory has a lot to bloody answer for. No, no, no, no, no.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to stop myself. I'm going to stop myself
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: because I really should have a jibber-jabber episode where I
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: just talk about the misrepresentation or the deliberate disinformation pushed by...
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: historical fiction, which is like, some people do that. They
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: do this to deliberately change the tide and make you
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: think of something else. But anyway, I'm so sorry. The
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Great Escape. A lot of what we learn from history
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: comes from pop culture. And movies, especially way back in
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: the day, used to gloss over the details. Whereas now,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: there is an obsession with the harsh, the ugly, and
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: all of the glory details, right? And I think sometimes...
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: because it's called The Great Escape, that we naturally apply
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: a happy ending to it. But I am getting ahead
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: of myself. We need to, very quickly, slip into some context.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: During the Second World War, Nazi concentration camps were cropping
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: up all over Nazi-occupied Europe. way back when I covered,
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I think it's in 2025, I covered the whole Nazi
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: concentration camp system, or not all of it, but like
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: quite a lot of it. And, you know, long story short,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: too late, over the course of the Nazi regime, there
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: were approximately 44,000 camps and ghettos. So this included, you
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: had work camps, extermination camps, transport camps, so on and
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: so forth. Now, On top of all of this, they
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: also had prisoner of war camps. Stalag Luft 3 was
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: a Nazi prisoner of war camp. It was designed to
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: detain fallen Allied airmen. The camp was situated near Sagan
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: in the German province of Lower Silesia, which is now Sagan, Poland.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: It's like a hundred miles southeast of Berlin. And it
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: had a capacity, an official capacity, of 10,000 prisoners. Now,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: the Luftwaffe were the guards. And there was around 800
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: of them. Most were either too old for active service
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: or younger members of the Nazi Air Force in recovery
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: from injuries. So they were like, hey, go here. You're
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: still working, but you're in this area. Now, unlike other prisoners,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: These prisoner of war camps typically followed the Geneva Conventions.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Typically followed the Geneva Conventions. And it was run by
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: the Luftwaffe, as I said, and not the SA or
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the SS. Because of this, the general treatment of the
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: prisoners was not as cruel as other camps. Because you
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: have airmen holding airmen. Now, that does not mean the
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: conditions were... You know, a walk in the park. It
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: wasn't a holiday. And prisoners, they were very much geared
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: for escape. Unfortunately, the camp itself was designed specifically to
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: prevent prisoners from escaping. See, the Stalag Luft drei, which
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: it's drei, meaning there is a Stalag Luft ein and
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: a Stalag Luft zwei. And so camp number three, Was
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: designed with security in mind. I built my castle on
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: the swamp. And it burnt down. And they all laughed
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: at me. And I said, built my second castle on
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: the swamp. And it sunk into the swamp. That's it.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: And I built my third castle. It burnt down, fell over,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: then sunk into the swamp. And the fourth castle, lad,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: that one stayed. So, you know, they made the mistake
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: with number one, then number two, and then number three.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: They were like tip-top aces.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: That's the thing. the Germans were very efficient. They learned
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: from their mistakes and that was something they continued to do,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: trying to make everything as efficient as possible. So prisoner
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: of war camps, along with, say, the propaganda camps, they
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: were often visited by the Red Cross. And they were
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: deliberately a wee bit nicer, a wee bit gentler, a
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: wee bit, you know, they didn't want, especially in the
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: prisoner of war camps, they didn't want mistreatment or that
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: kind of information being brought back to the Allies in
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: any way, lest one did escape. You know, they wanted
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: to keep it like, oh, we're totally, you know, following
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: the code of war and not causing these kind of problems.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: But yes, Stalag Luftrei was established in March 1942. And
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: the location was chosen because the soil was sandy, right?
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Because it was that sort of sandy soil, it made
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: it difficult to tunnel through. Because when it came to escapes,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: they were generally focused on tunneling. So you have the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: barracks at Stalaglof Dry. They were small. They held around
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: five triple bunk beds. So you had 15 men in
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: a room. And these small rooms.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: And, you know.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: The camp was designed to have things like, you know,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: they had garden plots and options to have like theatre
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: and a library and a lot of this was stocked
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: by the Red Cross. Now, these barracks, right, they're designed
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: as part of the whole thing to prevent escape. So,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: To make it easier to catch on if tunnels were
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: being dug, the prisoner barracks were raised like half a
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: metre off the ground and they had seismograph microphones who
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: were placed all around the perimeter to pick up the
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: sound of digging. They really tried to make the camp
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: untunnelable but ended up being the most famous tunnelling out
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: of the whole Second World War. Now, here's the thing.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: It was first and foremost a detention centre. And prisoners
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: felt like a prison camp. You know, if you're in
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: the prison camp, you have to escape. And also because
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: these are varying members of the RAF from, you know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: South Africa and Norway and New Zealand and all this
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: kind of stuff. And the UK, obviously. Because they're from
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: all these places. There were no Americans there. There were
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: no Americans settled in this camp. I know we all
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: think of Steve McQueen, but that is, again, artistic license. So,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: in this, you have these men who feel it is
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: their duty to escape the camp, not just to demoralize
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: the Nazi campaign, but also because they felt like they
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: had to escape and rejoin the war effort and fight
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: for their cause, for king and country.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: So....
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Within this prisoner of war camp, I should also say
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: that there was still an observance of military rank. So
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: there's a strict military rank hierarchy. So senior officers would
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: vet you to see if you were actually an allied
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: prisoner of war and to make sure that you weren't
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: a spy. Because sometimes the Luftwaffe would send in someone,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: or the Germans, I should say, wasn't specifically the Luftwaffe themselves,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: but they would send someone into the camps, you know,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: to spy on the prisoners. So they would check to
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: see if you were like a flight lieutenant or if
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: you were something else. I actually don't know the aviation
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: military ranks. My friend's hair is going to be like,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: how do you not know this? So there are two
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: escape attempts known from Stalag Luftrei. One being the wooden horse,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: which we will discuss another time. And the other one
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: immortalised with Steve McQueen. A motorbike and a ball on
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: a wall. A scene that is repeated so often in
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: so much popular culture of him just hitting the ball
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: off of the... off the ground, off the wall and
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: then back into his mitt or his hand. I can't
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: quite remember how he did it. And yeah, of course
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: it's a baseball. Cricket balls don't bounce like that. But yeah,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: that's not.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: And maybe based on something, it's not based on this.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: But it happens so often that you see it a lot,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: repeated in popular culture, in TV shows and cartoons. Because
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: things get referenced and re-referenced in the zeitgeist, you know,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: that we kind of, I don't want to say Mandela
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: effect it, because that feels very disinformation-y, but we sort
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: of have this understanding without necessarily knowing the original source.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: But back to Stalag Luftrei. In order to escape, an
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: escape organisation was developed in the camp. And yes, they
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: had the very, very carefully considered name, the Escape Committee.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: The mass escape plan from the North Compound was the
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: brainchild of squadron leader Roger Bushell. He was being held
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: with other British and Commonwealth airmen. So, Bushell, also known
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: as Big X, like that was his name. Why was
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: he called Big X? I don't know, he was really
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: good at tic-tac-toe. Maybe his survey said, uh-uh. whom's to say?
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: But he was enigmatic, charming, and incredibly determined. His goal
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: was not only to get himself out of Stalag Luft,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: hundreds of other prisoners. He expected to bring 199 other men.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: And this plan, once it was presented to, well, the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: escape committee, it was authorised by Captain Herbert Massey. See, Bushell,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: or Big X, he felt like if they got so
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: many prisoners out, if they had 200 men just out
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of the camp, the German resources would be so stretched
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: thin in the manhunt that it would overwhelm them. And
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: because they couldn't be everywhere all at once, well, it
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: would give greater chances to escape. But how was he
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: going to do it? How was he going to get
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: that many out? How was he going to not get caught? Well,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: the plan was to dig three tunnels simultaneously. Tom, Dick
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: and Harry. If you're I don't know if this is
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: just a British thing or whether it exists in other places,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: but Tom, Dick and Harry are just... It's like when
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: you mention, oh, Tom, Dick and Harry are like placeholder names. Oh,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: who's there?
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: Everybody.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: So many people. Tom, Dick and Harry. It's just a
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: placeholder for like general names. And I don't know if
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: that's a thing now, especially since the name Dick has
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: fallen out of favour, but neither here nor there by
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: digging three holes at the same time the goal was
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: if one was discovered then there would be two more
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: left to flee from so it increased their chances of
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: survival if they found one they might not consider that
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: they were more they're like oh we found this tunnel
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: this is the tunnel we found ah we beat those
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: guys yeah wonderful the broadcast is on me um I'm
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: going to get in such trouble from every German I
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: know going, Katie, please stop doing whatever you think the
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Luftwaffe voice is.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: No.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: So, as with all good escape attempts, secrecy was the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: aim of the game. Big X was so serious about
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: this that he threatened to court-martial anyone who even whispered
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: the word So all the tunnels were always called by
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: their names. You wouldn't say, you know, Tunnel A, Tunnel B,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Tunnel C. You would say Tom, Dick or Harry. And
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: these tunnels, they were deep. Very deep. And small. So
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: they were at least 30 feet below the surface. And
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the tunnels themselves were two foot square for the most part.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Now granted... Some chambers were larger than others to house,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: you know, a workshop, staging posts, the air pump, you know. Now,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: here's the thing. The reason that they dug down so deep,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: the reason they made this the way, was again, you
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: have this very sandy soil. And the deeper you are,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: the easier it's going to be, you know, to not
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: disturb the surface anymore. You don't want to be digging
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: away and accidentally the whole ground is going to appear
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: and open up above you and show everybody where you are.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: No.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And another thing about this sandy soil is that in
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: order to keep the tunnels well structured, because you needed
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: to make sure it wasn't going to cave in, right?
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Wood had been scavenged from all across the camp, mainly
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: beams from the prisoners' bunks, right? So on every bed,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: there was around 20 or so beams, right? These wooden boards.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And they took around 12 from each. So they took
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: 12 boards from each bed, leaving around eight. Now, when
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: you have very few boards left on your bed, I
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: think they managed it in such a way that it
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: was like, you climb into that bed, And you climb
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: into that bed carefully. Because you don't want to leap
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: in and then not have the actual structure to support you.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: And next thing you know, they're triple bunks. You're just
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: going to go dunk, dunk, dunk and just crush the
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: man underneath you. Or men. So there's about eight beams
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: left on every bed. Now it wasn't only beds. Other
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: wood was scavenged from all across the camp. Furniture was
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: taken apart and whatnot. You know how they say necessity
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: is the mother of invention? Well, that is true. Anything
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: is a tool, if you're imaginative enough. So, to help
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: scoop the sandy soil out, the prisoners used tin cans. Now,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: these were also fashioned into, like, not just, like, tubs,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: but into, like, spoons and sort of trowels. And they
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: also made lanterns from them. So they had these tins
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: that they got from the Red Cross and they made
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: lanterns by collecting the fat skimmed off the soup, right?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: So they would just skim fat off soup and they
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: would collect it to make, you know, the fuel part.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: And a wick was made from old clothes. I say
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: old clothes, just like whatever scrap they could stuff in
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: there to make a wick, they used it. This is
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: a waste not want not society. Now these tins didn't
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: have soup in them by the way. They had powdered
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: milk provided by the Red Cross. Now I actually don't
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: have any powdered milk in my sidebar in my house
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: right now but I used to have it all the
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: time in the Netherlands because you never knew when you
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: wanted to like put on a cup of coffee and
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: you didn't know whether you were going to have fresh
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: milk in the fridge and I know you're thinking the
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: place that's known for milk and cheese Yeah. So I
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: got in the habit when I was working in a shop,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: because you can have a coffee first thing in the morning.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: They're like, have a coffee in the morning. It's not weird.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Inside the shop, inside a ceramic mug. And so we
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: would first thing in the morning, just pop the kettle on,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: make a little coffee with the powdered milk and go
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: about our day. And so I used to keep it in.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, just the weary person in me
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: thinks that, you know, maybe I should always keep powdered
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: milk on hand just in case, I don't know, maybe
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: I use too much milk to make pancakes and I
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: still want to have a coffee, you know? Anyway, back
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: to the camps. So the three tunnels, Tom, Dick and Harry,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: they all started from different places. Tom's point of origin
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: was in the darkened corner in hut 123. next to
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: a stove chimney. Tom extended west into the forest. Dick
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: began hidden in a drain sump, and that was in
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the washroom in Hut 122. And it was to go
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: in the same direction as Tom, but we will get
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: back to that later. Harry's entrance was hidden under a
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: stove in Hut 104. It made its way under the Vorlage,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: which is like the administration hut, right? It went under
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: the sick hut and the isolation cells. And it finished
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: out at the woods on the northern edge of the camp. Now,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: having the tunnels is all fine and well, but you
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: also have so many other things that are necessary in
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: the escape. Like, where are the guards going to be?
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: So the Allies were studying guard movements around the camp.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: They would chat to them. They would give them chocolate, right?
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Here's an interesting thing, though. Like, just like all of
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: the other camps, right, there was a food issue, you know,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: especially as the war progressed. Now, these prisoner of war camps,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: because they were still allowed to receive, like, packages... So
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: they could get packages from home or from the Red Cross.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And when they would come, you know, the food was
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: seen as communal. You were expected to share with the
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: rest of the men because of the scarcity of food.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: So when they received things like chocolate, they would share
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: it with the guards as a sort of camaraderie. And
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: they would chat and they would get like information, you know, this,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: that and the other. And so they would chat to
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: the guards and they called them goons. Now, the Germans
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: didn't realize that goon is an insult back in the Commonwealth. Now,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably, I think in Australia it's like
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: more insulting, but like there's this whole.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Joke.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Have you, okay sidebar, have you ever heard of Little
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Bunny Foo Foo? There's this nursery rhyme type song. Little
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Bunny Foo Foo hopping through the forest scooping up the
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: field mice and bopping them on the head. And down
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: came the good fairy. I'm actually doing the movements. And
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: she said, little bunny foo foo, I don't want to
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: see you scooping out a few old mice and popping
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: them on their heads. I'll give you three chances. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: if you don't behave, I'm going to turn you into
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: a goon. And so basically at the end, little bunny
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: foo foo doesn't listen and doesn't behave and gets turned
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: into a goon by the fairy because Actions have consequences
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: and our nursery rhymes don't seem to have that much anymore.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: So the whole joke is, at the very end, it's like,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: here today, good tomorrow. So yeah, the Germans didn't realise
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: that they were being mocked, shall we say. They didn't
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: realise that this is the situation that had specifically befallen them.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: And they thought it was just another word. Oh, you're
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: so funny with your Ah, fish and chips and your goons.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I get sorry, Germany. I'm so sorry. So you had
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: guard routines being studied by one group. You had tailors
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: making civilian outfits. There were forgers putting together documents and passports.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And there were also specialised departments to make maps and compasses.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: But you had all these people involved. And of course,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the tunnel diggers. And the escape committee had to decide
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: who was going, well, who was going to escape. And
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: they decided on who those 200 men would be. The POWs,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: who were cleared for escape first, right, 30 of them,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: or because they had the best chance to actually escape.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So people who were, say, fluent in German, for example.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: The next 70 had a history of previous escapes and
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: men who had been breaking their backs to dig the tunnels,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: like the people who had been really involved in it.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: They would get a place. Now, finally, for the remaining men,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the tunnel diggers, they drew lots. That being said, Not
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: everyone involved in the escape attempt would get a place. But,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: in the interest of the common good, they helped anyway.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: So they were digging the tunnels. Tom and Dick, well,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: they didn't quite make it to fruition. See, the camp
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: was going to be expanded right over where Dick was
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: supposed to pop up. So, Dick was abandoned. and used
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: as a storehouse instead. Tom was discovered by the camp guards,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: and upon discovery, they filled it with sewage and cement,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: they blew up the entrance, and sealed it. Which, honestly,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I think it feels a little bit like overkill. I
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: feel like you're just going a bit harsh there, guys.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: But of course, because they found one tunnel and they
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: found another tunnel, they did not suspect a third and
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: final tunnel. And so Harry was the lone tunnel remaining.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: All this effort was going into Harry. It had wooden
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: bores shoring it up. Mattresses and bedding were used to
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: soundproof the tunnels so that there was less vibrations and
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: sound from all of the digging. It also had electrical lights.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Prisoners pilfered electrical wires and they made these lights and
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: they built an air pump. Because the thing about digging
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: a tunnel as well is that in order to make
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: the hole, the dirt has to go somewhere. So there
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: were two methods, really, depending on the season. So in
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: the sort of better weather, they would sprinkle it on
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: blankets and then roll the blankets up. And so when
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: they'd go outside and go to have a lie down,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: they would like sunbathe. They would go out, they'd take
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: their blanket, they would shake it before they sat down
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: or before they lay down. So they would just be like, fa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: That's not the sound a blanket makes when you shake it.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: It is now. So then you have probably what's more
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: famous are the penguins, or as we like to call them, pengwings.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Bindley Boop, Cucumber Snatch. Men were waddling around
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: like penguins, pockets filled with sand. And they would have this, like,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: little hole in the pockets that they would just, like,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: shuggle and shake the dot out when they were, like,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: just chatting to another prisoner of war. They would be, like,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: near the gardens just having a wee chinwaggle. And then
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: the fellas that had these little plots of wee veg
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: gardens and whatnot, they would till the ground. Mixing in
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: the soil. Because the soil underneath was a different colour
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: to the soil on top. And in fairness, the sandy
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: soil was probably good to mix in with whatever they
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: had because irrigation and whatnot. Isn't that what they do?
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: They mix sand and eggshells and stuff into dirt for
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: more growy stuff.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: I don't have green thumbs, okay? I... I tried to
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: grow chillies once and then I had to give up
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: hope and just ask my mother for help. Now, she
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: can grow anything.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: The guards did find this waddling suspicious and the penguins
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: got caught. Now, again, this was all fine and dandy
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: up until the weather got colder. You know, apart from
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the being caught thing. So... It's chilly, it's cold, the
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: ground is harder, where are you going to shuggle out
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: this duck to? Because it's going to be noticeable, especially
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: if the ground is frosty or there's snow. Because they
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: were at this a long time. So, remember the storeroom tunnel?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: The abandoned dick? Well, that was where they started disposing
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: of the extra sandy soil. The prisoners kept digging and
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: they were growing Harry up until March 1944, which was
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: about a year after the idea had been originated. Harry,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: in the end, was 336 feet long. Everything was set.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: They had the civilian clothing. They had the documents. They
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: had the papers, compasses, maps, the men who spoke the language,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: and they had been hoarding rations specifically for this escape.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: It had been a year in the making, and the
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: men were ready to break out. On the 24th of March, 1944...
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: the tunnel was opened. It was a good night for
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: an escape. The midnight blue sky, moonless, which they felt
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: would be beneficial. And so that night, the tunnel was opened.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: One by one, the prisoners of war slid into the
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: tunnel in silence. They crawled through one after another, But
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: when they got to the end of the tunnel, when
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: they got to the opening, it didn't. They pushed. They shoved.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't budging. The tunnel opening had frozen shut.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: It had been a week since they had been near it.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: It was winter. It was cold. And it had sealed itself.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: It took them an hour and a half to open.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: But don't worry, it gets worse. As the first man
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: exited the tunnel, he realised that the opening wasn't quite
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: as far as they had intended. See, it wasn't as
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: deep into the woods as they were expecting and there
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: was a very real chance that they would be spotted
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: coming out of the tunnel with this lack of cover.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And to top it off, to put a little cherry
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: on top of this ice cream float of a shitshow,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: it had been snowing. So whatever direction they headed off
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: in the prisoners were going to leave a trail. But
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: they said, fuck this for a game of soldiers and
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: decided to make a break for it. So the original
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: plan was to stream out just like one after the other.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: But now with this lack of cover and reducing the
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: risk of being seen, they had to trickle out. Meaning
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: the last 100 men were not going to get a
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: chance to escape and had to stay behind. And so
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: they headed back to their barracks. Those fleeing through the tunnel, well,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: they were coming out slowly, one at a time, making
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: their way into the woods. Then suddenly, an air raid
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: siren went off. The guards were on high alert. And
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: all of the electricity was shut off. So they shut
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: off all the lights and their lights were in the tunnel.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: They were connected to the main grid. And so the
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: men were in the ground, 30 foot under the camp,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: in total darkness. Only the sound of their breathing and
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the ruffling of each other's clothes. And perhaps the pounding
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: in their ears. But eventually, they were turned back on.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: And they could continue. Then at one o'clock in the morning,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: as I said, it gets worse. It's just one thing
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: after another. Part of the tunnel caved in. which meant
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: the men had to repair Harry before they could carry on.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: More men piled out of the tunnel. And then, around
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: five o'clock in the morning, it all came to a
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: head when one of the men was spotted by a guard.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Just as the 77th prisoner was trying to climb out
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: of the tunnel exit, which was near the wood line,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: he was spotted. The alarm was raised. In the camp,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: guards were racing all over, trying to find the tunnel.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: And they were heading hut after hut, barrack and bunk.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: They went everywhere. Now, one of the very last huts
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: in the camp, the last one that they actually searched,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, who continues searching after you've found the thing,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: but it was one of the last, like, in the
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: entire camp to be searched. Like, the majority of other
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: huts had already, you know, been investigated. They finally get
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: round to Hut 104, which gives the POWs inside just
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: enough time to hide their tools, their provisions, and equipment.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: They were even able to burn the remaining forged documents
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: that they had. So... The Luftwaffe guards, as they're searching
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: through the huts, and even searching hut 104, they didn't
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: actually find the tunnel entrance. So after going through the
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: entire camp and not finding what they were looking for,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: they chose the reverse. They decided to work backwards. And
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: they got one of the guards... to go to the
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: tunnel exit and crawl through until he reached the entrance
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: in hut 104. And if they hadn't done it that way,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: but they did find it in the end. Now, they
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: had found the tunnel entrance. What they still needed to find, well,
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: these 76 escaped prisoners of war. You had 76 escapees,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: now thanks to the snow, unable to just stay hidden
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: in the woods. Because it was much easier to track
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: them through the snow. Which forced them to journey on roads, which,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: although the trail wouldn't be seen on the roads, being
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: on the roads in Nazi-occupied Poland, well... it did make
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: you more likely to be caught. Because you're more likely
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: to be stopped and questioned because you're a bunch of
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: men on the road in Nazi-occupied Poland. So, patrols were
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: sent out to track and capture suspected escapees from Stalag
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Luft 3. And 73... out of the 76 escapees, were
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: recaptured and returned. 73 out of 76. If you did
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: manage to see the Great Escape movie, the classic film,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: you'll remember, you know, men dressed in uniforms trying to
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: hoodwink their way through places. You had Steve McQueen on
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: a motorbike leaping over a fence. Like, it was very
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: exciting at the time. But, yeah, they were captured and
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: brought back to Stalag Luft. Now, Hitler, needless to say,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: was fucking Levitt. He was proper mad, right? He was
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: proper angry, by the way. and practically foaming at the mouth,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: demanded that each and every escapee be executed. Now, he
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: was so, like, in a fervour that Hermann Goring, he
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: was in such a fervour that Hermann Goring, Wilhelm Keitel
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: and Hans von Kleivenitz had to talk him down. Now,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: they talked him down a bit because he was, like,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: well embarrassed and enraged, but... They were like, hey, if
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: you massacre a whole bunch of Allied pilots, this might
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: result in a retaliation against our own men that are
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: held in Allied POW camps. And so instead, Hitler ordered
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: to the head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, that more
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: than half were to be shot specifically. As the prisoners
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: were recaptured, they were turned over to the Gestapo. They
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: were interrogated, then taken away by car in small groups
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: under the ruse that they were being returned to the
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: prison camp. The car would pull up on the side
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: of the road, stop, and under the pretext of relieving
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: one's bladder, so, you know, You need to pee, lads.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: Come on out.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: The men were taken out and then shot at close range.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Then their bodies were cremated and brought back to the camp.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: The men who were executed by the Nazis after being
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: recaptured from the Stalag Luft escape were Henry Birkland, Gordon Brettel,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Leslie Bull, Roger Bushell, Michael Casey, James Katnach, Arnold Christensen,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Dennis Cochran, Ian Cross, Herdor Espanel, Brian Evans, Niles Jorgen Fogleson,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Johans Roos. William Grisman. Alistair Gunn. Albert Hick. Charles Hall.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Anthony Hayter. Edgar Humphreys. Gordon Keddo. Anthony Kivanaske. Reginald Kirath.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Vorizmils Kulanovski. Stanislav Krol. Patrick Langford, Tom Lee James Long
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Romus Marasinias Clement Magar George McGill Harold Milford Jerzy Monjain
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Kazimierz Povlok Jerzy Monchin Henry Picard, John Paul, Bernard Schneider,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Sotiris Skarnislav, Rupert Stephens, Robert Stewart, John Guilford-Storer, Dennis Street,
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Cyril Swain, Pavel Tobolsky, Arost Valenta, Gilbert Waylands, George Wiley,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: John E.A. Williams and John F. Williams, of the 17
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: surviving prisoners. Most were sent to other camps, like Kolditz
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: or Sachsenhausen. Some stayed in Stalag Luft, but from that
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: March night, three escapees were not recaptured. Norwegians Per Bergsland
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: and Jens E. Muller And Dutch, Bram van der Stok.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: That's the most Dutch name I've ever heard. Oh, Bram
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: van der Stok. Oh, yes, I love to shackle my
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: bike all over the city and avoid the clams. I'd
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: like to climb out of the canals to come and eat.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: They're like a snippy, snippy, snippy on the clothes, yeah?
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Isn't that so weird? Oh, would you like a coffee?
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Really bad Dutch impression. Don't mind me, I'm just getting
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: barred from all the countries because of my terrible accents. So,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: especially like I'm making fun of Brom van der Stock,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: who is the most decorated aviator in Dutch history.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: Okay?
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: So, here I am. So, Müller and Bergland, they managed
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: to travel to Sweden. Like they managed to get there.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: You know, apart from the fact these guys could all
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: speak like multiple languages, right? So these two fellas, right?
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: They travel by train and then they managed to get
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: on a boat to Sweden because Sweden's neutral, right? So
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: they managed to get on this boat. There's some really
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: friendly Swedish sailors and they're like, yeah, come join us.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: It's like, I'm just like, being banned from all the
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: European countries. They're like, please don't make a Swedish chef joke.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: These men are veterans. But yes, so they managed to
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: make it back. So, and Brom here, what did Brom do? Well,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: he made it through Nazi-occupied Europe. So he makes his
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: way through. So he's sort of Nazi-occupied Poland. So he goes...
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: through sort of Poland Germany France right he goes all
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: the way through here right with the help of the
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: French resistance they get him to Spain right because Spain
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: is technically neutral it's also you know dealing with its
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: own stuff so he gets to the British consulate in
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Spain and then yeah goes on to become the most
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: decorated aviator in Dutch history. Now, I might have made
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: fun of his name for being the most Dutch name ever,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: but I think he actually deserves to have the most
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Dutch name ever. Like, this dude was proper hero. And
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: I think I might, you know, I might actually, when
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: I do my whole military series, I might talk about
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: this fella, because I just also want to say Bram
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: van der Stok again. So, back in Stalag Luft 3,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: you'd think that after, you know, having 70-something men escape,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: having a bunch of your fellow men, like, I don't
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: even know if they knew at the time that they
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: had been executed, right? They just knew that they hadn't
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: returned to camp. And I'm not entirely sure when they
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: found out that they had been killed. No, that's wrong.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: I do actually know. I know that the sort of
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: British military, they were informed in 1944. So it was
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: a year after all of this. So yeah, it took
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: them over a year to tell them. So the men
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: back at the camp may have had their suspicions, but
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: they weren't officially told. No one was officially told until
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: much later. But, yeah, you think, you think, oh, they're
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: done with tunnels. But no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: They started on another tunnel.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: George.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: Right? I'm surprised they didn't just have, like, Bob, for, like,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Bob's your uncle. Like, but George, another one for George,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: like the name of the king.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: So, George.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: But the George Tunnel was abandoned because the Nazis tried
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: to death march them. On the 27th of January 1945,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: 11,000 prisoners of war were marched out of Stalag Luft 3.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: And they were marched towards Sprembe in six inches of snow. Right,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: the reason that they were marching them out of Stalag Luft, well...
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Have you guessed that it was because the Soviets were approaching?
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: You guessed right. So I think they were, like, somewhere between,
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: I think, 16 and 24 miles. Like, it wasn't very far.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: They were, like, really, really close. And so the Luftwaffe
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: were just like, oh, no, no, no, no. We got
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: to get out of here. So they're aiming for Sprenberg.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: It is freezing. And they have... because they need to
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: make their way, they have 2,000 of the prisoners, like,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: clearing the road ahead of the main group. And after, like,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: 34 miles, they arrive in Bad Moskau. So they're there for, what,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: just over a day before they start marching again. So
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: the next 16 miles to Splemburg. Now, on the 31st
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: of January, the south compound prisoners... And the men from
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: the west compound were sent by Trayton to Stalag 7a
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: at Moosburg. Now, the centre compound prisoners were moved in February. So,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: all in all, 32 prisoners escaped during the march to Moosburg,
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: but they were recaptured. Now, the remaining prisoners at Splenberg
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: were either sent to Nuremberg or Vestumke. then the US
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: forces were making their way in. And so they are
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: like pillar to post, like moving these POWs all around. Now,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: it was built, like one of them was built to
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: hold like 14,000 and it now detained 130,000. So you
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: had like 130,000 in a place that's only supposed to
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: hold 14,000. Like it was wild. Now, Basically, then you
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: have the US coming on one side and you have
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: the Soviets on the other. And eventually, yeah, well, it's done.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: So with everyone being moved around and, you know, everything
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: else going on, you might wonder, like, how do we know?
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: I say, well, how do we have this information? Where
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: did the story come from? Well, we know what happened
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: in the, quote, great escape. thanks to Paul Brickhill. He
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: was a Spitfire pilot who was detained at Stagloft 3. Stag?
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Stalagloft 3. Now, he was supposed to escape in the tunnel,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: like he was supposed to be escaping through Harry that night,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: but that was changed when they realised he suffered from claustrophobia. Now,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: being claustrophobic in a two-foot-by-two-foot tunnel... probably not going to
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: be great for you and the people around you. And
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: so he was removed from the escape group, which probably
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: saved his life. So he ends up writing Escape to
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Danger with Conrad Norton, after which he pens The Great Escape.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: So he's drawing on his own experiences. He's writing this
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: book and it gets adapted into the movie that we
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: all know or we should know. And because again, it's
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: very much hollywoodified and you know certain parts of the
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: escaped are changed and the executions are changed a little
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: bit and a few things i think one of the
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: escapes from the style of gloved iron is is mixed
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: in there somewhere but being hollywood being hollywood it's glossed
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: over a lot of the hardships of how difficult it
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: was in there And the thing is about the POW
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: camps as well is that there will be a lot
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: of people who will go, well, the camps had movie
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: theatres and they had swimming pools and they had this,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: that and the other. And a lot of the time
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: when you see recreational facilities at a concentration camp of
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: any kind, they either belonged to the guards, they were
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: like a prisoner of war camp, they were part of
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: one of the propaganda camps which were built and designed
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: to look like so that they could film and show
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: just how good everything was and then other things again
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: were just makeshift and made again usually for guards and
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: people act like it's some big gotcha but no no
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: they weren't like fun great places to be they were
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: prisons just because your prison has a library doesn't stop
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: at being a prison you know And the reason that
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: prisons have things like libraries and yards and everything is
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: for population control. Or control of the population, I should say.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Because if you have people having options and distractions throughout
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: their day, something to focus on, it stops them doing
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: other shit. And it's like, there's this book, I didn't
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: reference it here, called The Great Escapism. And it shows,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: you know, like they would put on theatre shows and
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: they would, you know, do arts and crafts and go
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: to the library and do all this stuff and style
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: a gloaf. And one of the things that we often
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: forget is that for a lot of these men, they're imprisoned,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: they have nothing else to do. And so what, is
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: going to give them a purpose and a reason to
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: continue the thought of escape by being productive and contributing
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: and all that jazz and for some the tunnel was
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: hope I mean it's the hope that kills you but
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: the possibility of escape something to work towards it stops
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: a man from going mad so they say But yes,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: working together to flee the enemy, to fight the enemy,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: is a morale booster, really. And so many men were involved.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: They lived and died as part of the Great Escape.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: And they really pissed Hitler off, so I think, you know,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: ha ha, good for them, really. But yeah, um, I
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: know I always try, I know I've been doing a
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: lot of sidebars this episode, but I know that I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: do try and add a little bit of humour and
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: a little bit of lightness to these stories because they
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: are hard and they're horrific and they're terrible and you
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: need a moment to breathe, I think, a lot of
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: the time. But I don't want to be disrespectful and
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: disrespecting a Nazi because fuck those boys. But anyway, that
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: is the story of the real story of The Great Escape.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: So it is recommendation time, okay? So let's think about this.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: We have reading. And you know what? I could go
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: read The Great Escape. I could have said that. But
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: you know what? No, I've told you all about it.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: You're fine. No, I'm kidding. If you do want to
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: read it, go read it. But also, my recommendation is
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: like a little... I'm making things easy. Me, don't talk
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: about murder junkies. And I'm like, you should read How
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: to Solve Your Own Murder. Listen, it's fiction. It's fine
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: if it's fiction. Don't make it weird, okay? For watching. Oh,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: for watching.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: Oh my God.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Edgar Allan Poe's Murder Mystery Dinner Party, the musical, right?
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: There's a digital ticket. You can watch it now. And
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: you can watch it as much as you want for
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: 72 hours. It's like limited... so that you can watch it,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: but then it's going to be on YouTube for free
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: next year, but, but, she says, I'm very excited, I'm
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: a big fan of Team Shipwrecked, and the Team Shipwrecked,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: it's just called Shipwrecked comedy, what am I doing? Shipwrecked,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: I love Shipwrecked, I love literary sort of humour, I
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: think it's very wonderful and clever, and I really enjoyed
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: the musical. I saw it live. I was very excited.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: I loved it. I loved it. I was so happy. Anyway,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: I had a great time. Sat in the front row. Like,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: you could just feel the sweat. It was great. It
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: was a good time. But you should go watch the
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: digital ticket. I thought it played a really good sort
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: of turn on the original series that they had. Which
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: you should also check out, by the way, Edgar Allan
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: Poe's invite-only murder mystery dinner party slash gala for friends.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: Potluck.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: I got it right. I never get it right on
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: one go. Somebody's going to be like, you got it wrong, Katie.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so listening. I like a podcast that has
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: a beginning and an end. It's so I can actually
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: follow it a lot of the time. So I really
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: enjoyed The Thing About Pam. I thought that was a
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: very interesting, oh, here I am. I'm like recommending true
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: crime to you after being like, fuck true crime earlier. Jesus,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: I know who I am, okay? I never said I
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: wasn't contradictory. But also the dude, the Dateline voice, is
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: that the dude from Dateline? I'm doing like a puppet
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: thing with my hand and I'm like the voice, you
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: know the voice guys? The Dateline, I just, I find
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: his voice very soothing. But I usually listen to men
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: to help me fall asleep. Because, I don't know. Sorry.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: I've got to stop. I've got to stop with that.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: I'm on tour. That's right. Buy your tickets. More information
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: coming soon. And with that, I shall bid you good night.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Or good day. I don't know what time it is
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: where you are. Adios. Au revoir. Au revoir, my friends. Bye-bye.