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An Open-Ended Conversation with Tom Campbell · New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast

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  Any model that was a successful and
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  could explain as many things as mine did
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  couldn't possibly be
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  terribly wrong.
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  It would have to be
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  at least close. I don't, you know, claim
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  that it can do everything all time.
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  Models
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  evolve. They change. New information
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  comes in and and you have new
• 0:22
  understandings and the models have to
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  change. They have to grow or they have
• 0:26
  to be thrown out. You know, and that's
• 0:28
  the way it should be.
• 0:30
  But
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  it
• 0:33
  finally got to me in 2024 that I just
• 0:36
  had explained so many things. I had a
• 0:37
  list of close to 40
• 0:41
  paradoxes and things that were explained
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  with this theory that otherwise were
• 0:44
  unexplainable. And they all weren't in
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  physics, you know, they were in
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  in some were in psychology, some were in
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  metaphysics, some were in theology.
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  There are all sorts of
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  of these things that it explains very
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  nicely.
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  And I couldn't find in 20 years anything
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  that was a fact, you know, had
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  measurement, was part of an experiment
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  that it couldn't explain.
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  >> Keep watching to learn more. You can now
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  download all nine copies of the New
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  Thinking Allowed magazine for free or
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  order beautiful printed copies. Go to
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  >> Book four in the New Thinking Allowed
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  Dialogue Series is Charles T. Tart, 70
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  years of exploring consciousness and
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  parapsychology.
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  Now available on Amazon.
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  >> [music]
• 2:11
  >> Thinking aloud.
• 2:14
  Conversations on the leading edge of
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  knowledge and discovery with
• 2:19
  psychologist [music]
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  Jeffrey Mishlove.
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  >> [music]
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  >> Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove.
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  Today, I'm live in my studio with Tom
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  Campbell who has been a guest on New
• 2:36
  Thinking Allowed eight times previously.
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  I encourage you to check our listings
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  that if you haven't watched some of the
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  earlier interviews,
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  uh check them out. We're going to have
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  an open-ended conversation today
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  covering many different points about his
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  theory
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  popularly known as MBT or My Big TOE,
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  TOE meaning T O E, theory of everything.
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  Tom is the author of the book My Big
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  TOE. He is also the founder and director
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  of the Center for the Unification of
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  Science and Consciousness.
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  Welcome, Tom.
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  >> Thank you, Jeffrey. It's uh my pleasure
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  to be here once again in your studio.
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  >> This is our ninth interview,
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  incidentally.
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  >> Is it? I was thinking it was our 10th,
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  but uh I may have just miscounted that,
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  but
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  >> Well, I'll double-check.
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  >> [laughter]
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  >> And if I'm wrong, we'll publish a
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  correction, but I I do think it is nine,
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  and
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  uh of course,
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  uh for viewers who haven't yet watched
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  any of our previous interviews, and
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  there likely to be some, maybe it would
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  be good to start with just a a brief
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  overview.
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  >> Okay, brief is always difficult for me,
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  but I will try my best.
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  Okay, I'm a physicist.
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  Um
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  and when I was in graduate school,
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  I had an ex- paranormal experience of
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  being able to debug computer code in my
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  mind
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  and some of that debugging was
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  absolutely impossible to know even if
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  you were looking at it. It was like the
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  holes in the punch cards were just
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  slightly misaligned and I could find
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  those in my mind, but you could not find
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  those looking at them. So,
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  as a physicist, that was a big mind
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  opener. Well, physics physics is
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  modeling reality and there was a whole
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  big piece of
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  of reality that had to do with mind that
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  I knew nothing about. So, when I left
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  the university, I eventually ran into
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  Bob Monroe, spent eight years, 15-20
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  hours a week with Bob Monroe, learned
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  all the paranormal arts,
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  and my job as the physicist was to come
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  up with the theory of why did it work
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  that way.
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  You know, why sometimes could you do it
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  and sometimes not? You know, what was
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  the differences? So, I spent the next 33
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  years trying to come up with a model
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  that explained everything. It explained
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  the physical world, but also explained
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  all the paranormal things
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  and
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  it wasn't an easy task because I would
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  find
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  okay, I have this piece. I understand
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  this, but that is conflict with this
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  other piece which just doesn't seem to
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  have anything to do with this other
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  piece and it took a long time before I
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  finally pulled it all together and that
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  the insight that helped me pull it
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  together was
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  it's all information.
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  The paranormal things you do is
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  information. The normal things you do
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  are information, which led me to
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  understand reality as a virtual reality
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  just based on information. And from that
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  I was then after about another
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  oh, eight years or so,
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  you know, I'm learning all the time. It
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  takes time. I realized that I could
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  derive quantum physics
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  from an understanding of consciousness.
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  And at first that astounded me, but then
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  when I realized
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  you know, my
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  my understanding is that consciousness
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  is fundamental.
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  And if consciousness is fundamental and
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  you understand consciousness, then you
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  should be able to understand everything
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  else because everything else is a
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  derivative of consciousness. And indeed
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  it worked out that way. So, I started
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  around 2010, I started looking at
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  science, its mysteries, its paradoxes.
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  And I found that I could explain all of
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  those
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  logically. All of this was science.
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  There are no beliefs, there are no big
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  leaps of of you know, assumptions. It's
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  all very basic, very logical.
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  And I can derive quantum physics and
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  scientists today are stuck on a few
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  things like that um
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  probability wave collapses to a physical
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  particle. Well, that doesn't make any
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  sense. Probability waves are
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  mathematics. Mathematics does not
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  collapse into physical particles. It
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  just is nonsense.
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  Some of physicists actually believe that
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  that's what's happening, but most
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  realize that's a metaphor. It's kind of
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  the best metaphor that physics can come
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  up with when they look at how the
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  experiments work. So, they say that, but
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  they know it's not really what works.
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  I can explain that logically. I can
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  explain it such that quantum physics is
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  not weird science. It's rational,
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  logical science just like every other
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  science.
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  And I do the same with relativity. The
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  big
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  kind of secret, not a secret, but the
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  big thing in relativity is that the
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  speed of light is a constant.
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  Now, that was done in what's called
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  special relativity, which is a real
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  simple little thing, but
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  general relativity basically takes that
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  same idea, but it generates also a
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  theory of gravity. And you come up with
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  space-time and gravity and has to do
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  with the rubbery space-time that that
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  warps.
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  So, anyway, I can I can very logically
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  explain why C has to be a constant. In
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  fact, every virtual reality has a
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  constant.
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  So, then I started looking for other
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  things in physics that were
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  unknown. They know that this is a fact,
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  but they have no idea why that's a fact
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  or where it comes from. And I could
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  solve all of those, not just some of
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  them, but all of those.
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  So, I spent
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  20 years going between
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  the statement that I had a model of
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  reality to the statement of I had a
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  model
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  not of a reality, but of the reality.
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  And that was about a 20-year journey to
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  go from A to the.
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  But I'm a physicist. I'm careful. I
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  don't like to make claims or say things
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  that I don't have very solid experience
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  and very solid logic to back up. And the
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  reason I made that change is I realized
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  that
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  any model that was as successful and
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  could explain as many things as mine did
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  couldn't possibly be
• 9:24
  terribly wrong.
• 9:26
  It would have to be
• 9:28
  at least close. I don't, you know, claim
• 9:30
  that it can do everything all time.
• 9:33
  Models
• 9:34
  evolve. They change. New information
• 9:37
  comes in and and you have new
• 9:38
  understandings and the models have to
• 9:40
  change. They have to grow or they have
• 9:42
  to be thrown out. You know, and that's
• 9:44
  the way it should be.
• 9:46
  But
• 9:47
  it uh
• 9:49
  finally got to me in 2024 that I just
• 9:52
  had explained so many things. I had a
• 9:53
  list of close to 40
• 9:56
  paradoxes and things that were explained
• 9:58
  with this theory that otherwise were
• 10:00
  unexplainable. And they all weren't in
• 10:01
  physics, you know, they were in
• 10:03
  in some were in psychology, some were in
• 10:06
  metaphysics, some were in theology.
• 10:08
  There were all sorts of uh of these
• 10:10
  things that it explains very nicely.
• 10:14
  And I couldn't find in 20 years anything
• 10:18
  that was a fact, you know, had
• 10:20
  measurement, was part of an experiment,
• 10:22
  that it couldn't explain.
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  Or that violated it. That said, "Oh,
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  that can't possibly be true because of"
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  So, I changed the A to a V in 2024.
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  And
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  and uh
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  I'm still learning things, of course, as
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  we go. So, that's my theory. It The
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  theory is basically that this is a
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  virtual reality and it's computed within
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  consciousness. Consciousness is an
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  information system. And the reason that
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  consciousness system, which of course is
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  conscious, you know, it's it's not a
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  machine, it's a piece of consciousness.
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  And the reason that it's created this
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  virtual reality for us, which are pieces
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  of this larger consciousness system, I
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  call free uh
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  well, I call them IUOCs, okay? They're
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  individuated units of consciousness.
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  That's what I am. That's what you are.
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  And
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  these consciousnesses
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  are here to evolve. And they evolve by
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  the choices they make.
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  We make choices. I actually define
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  consciousness as awareness with a
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  choice, a very simple definition.
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  And that definition has held up so far
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  through lots of arguments and and lots
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  of discussions.
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  That seems to cover it very well. It's
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  just awareness with a choice. So, by the
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  choices we make, whether we make them
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  toward becoming love, caring, sharing,
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  cooperation, or we make them
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  because of fear, ego, beliefs, that sort
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  of thing, we then either evolve or
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  de-evolve, depending on which side. Now,
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  that particular dichotomy between fear
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  and love is something that maybe we'll
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  go into later, if you want to, but
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  that's that's kind of another thing. But
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  that's that's not because I think love
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  is a wonderful thing, and that fear is a
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  bad thing. It's because the logic
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  [snorts] demands that that is the
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  direction in which consciousness
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  evolves. So, it creates this virtual
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  reality to give us opportunities to make
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  very meaningful
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  choices. Not just choices of who to talk
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  to and what to say, but life-changing
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  choices, life-threatening choices.
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  Uh and we have choices every day, big
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  and small. And each one is an
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  opportunity for us to make those choices
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  based on caring, sharing, cooperation,
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  love, or to make them based on
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  fear, you know, self-centeredness,
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  uh what's in it for me, you know, that
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  kind of a thing.
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  And the very last thing I'd like to
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  point out is that
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  the dominant attitude in our country,
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  and probably in the entire world, is
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  that this reality is physical. It's
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  called physicalism and sometimes
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  materialism.
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  And that is that this physical reality
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  is what there is.
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  Now, that comes with an ethic. If
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  physical world is what it is, then
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  physical world don't belong to anybody.
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  So, if you have the power to grab a
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  piece of it, whether it's minerals or
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  water or whatever, and own it and keep
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  it, then it's yours. And that's true of
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  everything in the physical world. Even
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  the plant kingdom does the same thing.
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  They all grow trying to find sunlight.
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  And if you can grow faster and taller,
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  then you will survive and the plants
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  that can't keep up will will be shaded
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  out. They don't survive. Our physical
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  reality evolves on
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  procreation and survival.
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  That's competition.
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  So, that's the nature of this reality.
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  And we as consciousness,
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  that's not what our criteria are. Our
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  criteria are love versus fear. That's
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  how we evolve as moving toward love and
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  de-evolve as moving toward fear. So,
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  anyway, we have this ethic of control,
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  power, force in the physical world, from
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  plants to humans. That's just the way we
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  are here.
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  And that ethic,
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  of course,
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  kind of
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  can be all summed up in terms of money.
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  Money is control, power, and force. Now,
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  the ethic in my model, the ethic in this
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  model of consciousness is the computer,
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  it computes a virtual reality, and we
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  pieces of that system then play and make
• 14:48
  choices in this virtual reality, and by
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  those choices we evolve or de-evolve.
• 14:53
  Okay, so
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  that's the overall model.
• 14:57
  That's the um
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  kind of the result of it is that the
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  ethic that goes with
• 15:04
  my model is sharing, caring,
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  cooperation.
• 15:09
  So, control, power, force, that goes
• 15:11
  with materialism. Sharing, caring,
• 15:14
  cooperation, love, that goes with the
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  MBT model of reality. And that makes a
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  really big difference because this
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  underlying ethic of control power force,
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  that's how we live our lives. And just
• 15:29
  look at the world and see the news and
• 15:31
  it's all about control power force.
• 15:33
  That's what creates all of our problems,
• 15:36
  whether it's a bank charging fees for no
• 15:39
  action. You know, they just make up a
• 15:40
  rule that says, "Oh, if this happens,
• 15:42
  you owe us money." And they collect the
• 15:44
  money but don't really have anything to
• 15:46
  do. You know, they didn't add any value
• 15:48
  to it. It's just collection from You
• 15:51
  know, that's greed. Well, greed is a
• 15:52
  part of control power force. So, we have
• 15:56
  the world we live in now based on
• 15:57
  control power force. And if even 10% of
• 16:02
  our population
• 16:04
  had the ethic of sharing, caring, and
• 16:07
  cooperation, the world would become a
• 16:10
  very different place because that 10%
• 16:14
  would be more productive, more happy,
• 16:16
  more satisfied,
• 16:18
  and have more fun
• 16:21
  than the other 90% and very soon that
• 16:24
  other 90% would want to be like that
• 16:26
  very successful 10% and it wouldn't be
• 16:28
  but a decade or two before that would be
• 16:31
  the dominant ethic and we would all live
• 16:34
  in a kinder, gentler, more efficient,
• 16:37
  and more productive space. So, that's
• 16:40
  really my model and and where it goes
• 16:42
  and why it's significant. So, my work is
• 16:46
  to try to
• 16:48
  move these ideas forward
• 16:50
  and hopefully one day we will live in a
• 16:53
  kinder, gentler place.
• 16:56
  >> That's a very good summary.
• 16:58
  And of course, let me also encourage
• 17:02
  viewers who want to dig more into it.
• 17:04
  Our previous eight interviews
• 17:08
  go into many of the nuances and details
• 17:11
  and and also many questions that viewers
• 17:14
  have offered
• 17:15
  as well.
• 17:17
  But one idea that I think is important
• 17:20
  to your theory that you didn't mention
• 17:22
  that I really like to go into today is
• 17:25
  the role of entropy.
• 17:27
  >> Mhm.
• 17:28
  Well, entropy is a physics term, comes
• 17:31
  out of thermodynamics, and
• 17:34
  entropy says
• 17:36
  well, the entropy in the in the physics
• 17:38
  viewpoint is that
• 17:40
  entropy always increases
• 17:44
  or stays the same.
• 17:46
  Now, if that's just natural, system left
• 17:49
  alone, entropy always increases. If you
• 17:52
  put energy into that system, you can
• 17:54
  actually have energy decrease. But when
• 17:57
  you stop putting energy into it, it
• 17:59
  starts to increase again. So, that means
• 18:03
  that the universe will one day be, you
• 18:05
  know, hydrogen gas and elementary
• 18:07
  particles because that's what happens
• 18:09
  when everything, you know,
• 18:12
  goes to as simple a state as possible.
• 18:15
  But that's going to be a long, long time
• 18:17
  away. So, it's it's nothing to be too
• 18:19
  concerned about. Many, many billions,
• 18:21
  maybe even billions of billions of
• 18:23
  years, but in any case, entropy is a
• 18:25
  measure of disorder. So, lowering
• 18:28
  entropy creates order.
• 18:30
  Now,
• 18:32
  an information system
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  will have maximum entropy, maximum
• 18:38
  disorder, if all the bits in it
• 18:41
  are random. That's the very definition
• 18:43
  of randomness. There is no information.
• 18:46
  But that system, given that that it's a
• 18:48
  conscious system, if it can order some
• 18:50
  of those bits, then that ordering
• 18:53
  becomes information. It could be a a
• 18:55
  symbol for something. It could be an
• 18:57
  idea. It could be mathematics. You pile
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  one bit on another bit, and there's two
• 19:02
  bits in a pile. Well, you know, another
• 19:04
  two bits in a pile make four bits. So,
• 19:07
  you can you can turn that ordering into
• 19:10
  information.
• 19:12
  So, you see that consciousness is an
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  information system and that makes sense
• 19:18
  because
• 19:19
  we are conscious and what are we
• 19:20
  conscious of? We're conscious of the
• 19:22
  information that we collect through our
• 19:25
  senses. Take away that information and
• 19:28
  we are simply aware that we're aware and
• 19:31
  nothing else. See nothing, smell
• 19:33
  nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing,
• 19:35
  taste nothing.
• 19:36
  And you're just aware that you exist.
• 19:40
  Kind of the day car moment where you
• 19:42
  exist. You know, I am.
• 19:44
  You know, that's all you know is I am.
• 19:46
  That's the That's it. So,
• 19:49
  that is the definition of an information
• 19:52
  system. You take in information, you
• 19:54
  process it, you compare it to
• 19:58
  memory,
• 19:59
  you process it some more and you have an
• 20:02
  output. What are you going to do about
• 20:04
  what you sensed?
• 20:06
  And that defines an information system.
• 20:08
  Input, processing, memory, processing,
• 20:12
  output. So, the way consciousness works
• 20:16
  is as an information system. Now,
• 20:17
  consciousness being an information
• 20:20
  system, it evolves by lowering its
• 20:23
  entropy. That is creating meaningful,
• 20:25
  significant information. So, that's how
• 20:29
  it evolves. It devolves by
• 20:33
  raising entropy, which means
• 20:36
  dysfunctional behavior, tearing apart,
• 20:38
  disintegrating, uh
• 20:40
  being uh uncooperative, uncaring,
• 20:43
  self-centered. All those things are
• 20:45
  destructive.
• 20:46
  Now, once you have a
• 20:48
  a system like ours, like our conscious
• 20:51
  system, which you have the main system
• 20:53
  and then you have all the pieces of the
• 20:54
  system, small replicas of the larger
• 20:57
  system. That's us individual units of
• 21:00
  consciousness. You have a social system.
• 21:03
  That creates a social system. And in a
• 21:06
  social system,
• 21:08
  it's pretty obvious. I could go through
• 21:10
  a little derivation, but it's pretty
• 21:12
  obvious that in a social system, that
• 21:13
  social system can optimize itself if all
• 21:16
  of its members cooperate, care, work
• 21:20
  together
• 21:21
  for the benefit of everybody.
• 21:24
  Okay. Now, this is not necessarily a
• 21:25
  collective like you think of collective.
• 21:27
  It's just everybody wants to. They're
• 21:30
  not forced to. Everybody wants to. They
• 21:33
  desire to be helpful, to be useful, to
• 21:36
  share, to care.
• 21:39
  Nothing's forcing that action. They just
• 21:41
  simply that's the way they are. They're
• 21:43
  low entropy beings. So, that then tells
• 21:47
  you that the way consciousness evolves
• 21:49
  is toward lowering its entropy. So,
• 21:53
  that's how entropy fits in. Now,
• 21:55
  lowering that entropy means
• 21:57
  not just to you personally, because
• 22:00
  that's your entropy of your
• 22:01
  consciousness, but in the long term to
• 22:03
  the whole system. To both you and the
• 22:05
  system. So, when you make a choice, then
• 22:09
  you have to think, how does that affect
• 22:11
  the entropy? Is this going to be a a
• 22:13
  choice that helps order, helps the
• 22:16
  process, helps people learn, helps
• 22:18
  people grow, helps you learn and grow,
• 22:20
  and in the long term, it will be a
• 22:22
  overall good thing. And if that's your
• 22:26
  conclusion, then you do that. You make
• 22:28
  that choice, and then you watch and see
• 22:31
  what happens. If what happens is really
• 22:33
  good, well, you made a good choice. Pat
• 22:36
  yourself on the back and make more of
• 22:37
  those good choices. If it didn't work
• 22:39
  out because, oh, there were some things
• 22:41
  I didn't think about. I didn't realize
• 22:43
  that this was going to trigger that,
• 22:45
  which would trigger this other thing.
• 22:47
  And you realize, oh, I didn't have
• 22:49
  enough insight to the problem. And then
• 22:51
  you find, why didn't you have insight to
• 22:53
  the problem? What was missing? What
• 22:55
  should you have done instead? And you
• 22:57
  learn from it. And that's why we're
• 23:00
  here. We don't have to be perfect.
• 23:03
  Making a mistake is perfectly okay. Not
• 23:06
  learning from that mistake is a little
• 23:07
  bit problematical. But, the only
• 23:10
  punishment for not learning is you get
• 23:12
  to do it again, and again, and you keep
• 23:14
  get to doing the same sorts of things
• 23:17
  until you do finally learn. So, that's
• 23:20
  your That's your punishment for not
• 23:22
  getting it and learning right away is
• 23:23
  that you get to try again, and try
• 23:25
  again, and try again. So, that's the
• 23:28
  nature of the conscious system. All the
• 23:31
  piece parts are here to evolve. We need
• 23:34
  this virtual reality because this
• 23:36
  virtual reality has very
• 23:38
  gripping, very meaningful
• 23:41
  you know, very powerful lessons,
• 23:43
  challenges all the time. And because
• 23:46
  this is a a multiplayer game, then we
• 23:49
  all
• 23:50
  interact with everybody else. I do
• 23:52
  things that affect you, and you do
• 23:53
  things that affect others, and our own
• 23:56
  actions have ripples that go out into
• 23:58
  the world. And that creates a huge
• 24:02
  mixture of
• 24:04
  chances and challenges for us to deal
• 24:08
  with all of that because everybody has
• 24:12
  free will. Remember, it is awareness
• 24:15
  with a choice. Choice requires free
• 24:18
  will. If there is no free will, there
• 24:20
  really is no choice. So, that comes in,
• 24:24
  and of course, the other thing that
• 24:25
  comes in is time. Because if you can
• 24:27
  evolve, then it's before you evolved,
• 24:29
  and after you evolved, or before you you
• 24:33
  went to memory, or before you processed,
• 24:35
  and after you processed. So, you have to
• 24:37
  have time. So, my model says that time,
• 24:40
  free will, and consciousness are all
• 24:43
  logically necessary for each other.
• 24:46
  The opposite end of that, you know, the
• 24:48
  the direct opposite, you have
• 24:50
  materialism, which, if you're logical,
• 24:53
  requires determinism. With determinism,
• 24:56
  you have no time.
• 24:59
  Everything just is. There's no
• 25:00
  evolution. There's no change. There's no
• 25:03
  growth. There's no
• 25:06
  degeneration.
• 25:07
  Everything is just already determined,
• 25:10
  and there's no point or purpose either
• 25:12
  because it doesn't go anywhere. It just
• 25:14
  happens because it happens. So, to me,
• 25:16
  determinism is kind of a zero-order,
• 25:20
  you know,
• 25:20
  guess because it just doesn't make any
• 25:23
  sense. It doesn't go anywhere. It
• 25:24
  doesn't accomplish anything, and it has
• 25:26
  no moving parts. It just is, and it is
• 25:30
  totally without function or form or
• 25:32
  purpose. So, the idea that time,
• 25:35
  consciousness,
• 25:36
  and free will create something that is
• 25:40
  rather large and beautiful, and it's a
• 25:42
  game that we all come here to play. You
• 25:46
  can call it a entropy reduction trainer.
• 25:49
  It's what this virtual reality is, and
• 25:51
  this virtual reality is not just Earth.
• 25:53
  It's the whole universe.
• 25:55
  And it was created by starting with
• 25:58
  initial conditions
• 25:59
  and having a rule set. And then you
• 26:02
  punch the run button, and you get what I
• 26:04
  call the big digital bang. That initial
• 26:07
  conditions was that ball of plasma, high
• 26:09
  temperature, high pressure. Hit the run
• 26:11
  button. It starts to expand and cool
• 26:14
  according to the rules. Rules are things
• 26:16
  like gravity, you know, and forces and
• 26:18
  all that sort of thing. So, that's done
• 26:21
  in a computer. It's the big digital
• 26:24
  bang, and it evolved in the computer.
• 26:26
  And we have we have things like that
• 26:28
  going on in computer science, you know,
• 26:31
  >> And when you say computer, you're really
• 26:33
  referring to
• 26:35
  not
• 26:38
  not a computer that some alien in
• 26:40
  another star system has that we live
• 26:43
  inside of. You're You're referring to
• 26:46
  what
• 26:48
  might be my friend Simon Duan would call
• 26:51
  the platonic computer, a computer that
• 26:53
  exists in
• 26:55
  a realm outside of our 3D space.
• 26:59
  >> This is the larger consciousness system,
• 27:01
  an information system configuring part
• 27:04
  of itself to be a computer.
• 27:07
  Information systems so make computers.
• 27:10
  That's what they are. So, it can take a
• 27:11
  part of itself,
• 27:13
  configure that as a computer, and then
• 27:15
  it can compute this virtual reality. So,
• 27:18
  it's all a part of consciousness. Now,
• 27:20
  talking about the physical and the
• 27:21
  non-physical, of course,
• 27:24
  it creates a virtual reality that we
• 27:26
  think is physical. So, think of a of a
• 27:29
  game, a virtual reality game where there
• 27:31
  are
• 27:32
  players,
• 27:33
  and there are avatars.
• 27:36
  Okay? Now, to the avatar, say a
• 27:38
  barbarian in a in some sort of virtual
• 27:41
  reality game, that barbarian's viewpoint
• 27:45
  sees that the computer that's computing
• 27:47
  it is non-physical. To that barbarian,
• 27:50
  the player is non-physical to that
• 27:53
  barbarian. And the player makes all the
• 27:56
  choices
• 27:57
  for that avatar. That's the way it
• 27:59
  works. Well, that's exactly the way it
• 28:01
  works with us.
• 28:03
  We have consciousness, which is
• 28:04
  non-physical from our viewpoint. That's
• 28:07
  the computer. We have the player that is
• 28:11
  a piece of consciousness. Now, you can
• 28:13
  call that piece of consciousness a soul,
• 28:15
  you can call it a spirit. It's
• 28:18
  non-physical to the virtual reality
• 28:20
  perspective. So, we call that
• 28:23
  non-physical as opposed to physical,
• 28:25
  which is our perception of this virtual
• 28:29
  reality. And the way that works is like
• 28:31
  any video any virtual reality game, and
• 28:34
  that is that we get a data stream. The
• 28:36
  data stream is sent to us from the
• 28:38
  computer, the consciousness system. We
• 28:41
  get that data, and we interpret it to be
• 28:43
  this physical reality. So, there's the
• 28:46
  data, and then there's our
• 28:47
  interpretation of the data, and that
• 28:50
  interpretation is our reality. So,
• 28:53
  everybody lives in a slightly different
• 28:55
  reality because they have different
• 28:57
  interpretations based on their different
• 28:59
  experiences through life.
• 29:02
  >> But, most fundamentally, for example,
• 29:04
  for a
• 29:05
  a typical viewer, a typical person out
• 29:08
  there,
• 29:09
  uh
• 29:10
  they experience themselves as being uh
• 29:15
  a body.
• 29:16
  >> Yeah.
• 29:16
  >> And and what you're saying is that uh
• 29:19
  while we think of this body as being
• 29:21
  objectively real and physical, it's
• 29:25
  actually a data stream coming into our
• 29:28
  consciousness.
• 29:29
  >> Yes, exactly. When you play a virtual
• 29:31
  reality game, you get a data stream
• 29:33
  coming into your computer. That data
• 29:35
  stream lights up, say, a million pixels
• 29:38
  on your monitor. You look at those
• 29:40
  million pixels, and each pixel has a
• 29:43
  position, it has brightness, and it has
• 29:47
  color.
• 29:48
  That's it. So, you get a million of
• 29:51
  these pixels, and you look at those
• 29:52
  pixels, and you see people, you see
• 29:55
  rivers and rocks and doorknobs [snorts]
• 29:57
  and buildings and other beings like
• 30:00
  yourself. You can see yourself. So,
• 30:03
  what you what you take that data, you
• 30:06
  interpret it,
• 30:08
  you interpret a million dots of light
• 30:10
  into trees and rocks and water and
• 30:13
  physical things. Well, we do the same.
• 30:16
  We get a data stream. We interpret that
• 30:18
  data to be
• 30:20
  to rocks and streams and houses and
• 30:22
  doorknobs and all the things we find in
• 30:24
  the physical world. And how do we learn
• 30:26
  to interpret that? Well, we start as an
• 30:29
  infant. Somebody says, "Mama." You learn
• 30:32
  who that is, and somebody says, "Apple."
• 30:34
  And you learn what that is. And
• 30:35
  eventually, we have a way of
• 30:38
  interpreting the data.
• 30:41
  And that's what we do. So, our reality
• 30:44
  is interpreted information that we get.
• 30:48
  Now, if you have this understanding,
• 30:50
  then suddenly all the paranormal things,
• 30:53
  even the theological things, what's
• 30:55
  soul, what spirit, uh you know, what's
• 30:58
  going on in the non-physical?
• 31:00
  How is How are paranormal things
• 31:02
  accomplished? And And uh what about the
• 31:05
  UFOs that are traveling at Mach 2 and
• 31:08
  suddenly do a 90° turn and they're still
• 31:10
  going Mach 2. You know, how is that
• 31:12
  possible? Well, it's a virtual reality.
• 31:15
  It's computed, and the system can
• 31:18
  compute anything it wants if it thinks
• 31:21
  that's advantageous to us to help us
• 31:25
  lower our entropy.
• 31:27
  >> Now, I'd like to drill down a little
• 31:28
  more into the issue of entropy because I
• 31:32
  get the impression that you you're
• 31:34
  saying that
• 31:36
  high entropy is which pure randomness,
• 31:39
  that's bad.
• 31:41
  And but low entropy is is good. And I
• 31:45
  wonder about that because zero entropy
• 31:48
  would be
• 31:49
  a crystal, something that's completely
• 31:51
  frozen, has no choice, has no movement.
• 31:55
  I don't I It seems to me that there
• 31:58
  ought to be a sweet spot somewhere in
• 32:00
  between absolute total entropy or zero
• 32:04
  entropy.
• 32:05
  >> Well, one thing that you're missing is
• 32:07
  that
• 32:08
  you can't get to zero entropy. You can
• 32:11
  only approach it. It's sort of like like
• 32:14
  um
• 32:15
  you can't get to absolute zero in
• 32:17
  temperature cuz just the act of
• 32:19
  measuring it will warm it up to
• 32:21
  something bigger than zero. You can't
• 32:23
  get there. It's sort of like infinity.
• 32:25
  You can't really get to a place called
• 32:27
  infinity, you can only approach it. And
• 32:30
  you can approach it asymptotically. You
• 32:31
  can get closer and closer, but you don't
• 32:33
  get there. So, you don't get to zero.
• 32:37
  Now, lowering entropy means that you
• 32:40
  you're helpful, you're caring, you you
• 32:42
  try to help out. There's always
• 32:45
  people that need that help and need us.
• 32:47
  There's always something to do. Now,
• 32:49
  yes, in a physical crystal, it forms a
• 32:52
  very specific set of angles and planes
• 32:56
  and faces and so on. That is its low
• 32:59
  energy low energy uh
• 33:02
  what uh
• 33:03
  way of con- configuring its
• 33:07
  molecules.
• 33:08
  >> Yeah.
• 33:09
  >> So, it it does this. But, you have to
• 33:11
  put energy in to get that lowering of
• 33:15
  you know, of the entropy into that
• 33:18
  crystal. Now, with consciousness, it's
• 33:21
  the same thing. If you don't keep trying
• 33:24
  to be low entropy, if you don't keep
• 33:26
  trying to be helpful and caring, your
• 33:28
  entropy will increase just all by itself
• 33:32
  because you're not putting any effort
• 33:34
  in. You can only lower entropy by
• 33:36
  putting energy into the system. If you
• 33:39
  do nothing, you begin to de-evolve. So,
• 33:42
  you have to keep practicing, keep doing.
• 33:45
  You never get to the point where you
• 33:46
  say, "I'm done. I quit. I don't really
• 33:49
  give a damn about anybody else because
• 33:51
  I'm here and I'm enlightened and I'm
• 33:54
  done, so I can get I can just forget
• 33:57
  about the rest of it." That's high
• 33:58
  entropy. Instead, you'd say, "I want to
• 34:01
  help. I want to be part of the solution.
• 34:03
  You know,
• 34:04
  how can I help best?"
• 34:06
  That's the
• 34:06
  >> I I totally get what you're saying from
• 34:09
  an ethical point of view, but to attach
• 34:12
  it to entropy, that's where I'm I'm I'm
• 34:15
  not sold on on that at all. It seems to
• 34:19
  me that
• 34:21
  true, you're not going to get to total
• 34:23
  pure entropy or total pure negentropy,
• 34:27
  but I'm not sure that the ideal is to
• 34:30
  even be close, even to be very, very
• 34:33
  close to
• 34:35
  zero entropy, I think would be confining
• 34:39
  and we see lots of instances of rigid
• 34:43
  organizations
• 34:45
  where people are
• 34:47
  functioning well, for example, churches,
• 34:51
  religious organizations. Some of them
• 34:53
  are thousands of years old or centuries
• 34:56
  old and they have routines and people
• 34:59
  within that organization are relatively
• 35:02
  harmonious with each other, but
• 35:06
  every now and then people feel a
• 35:08
  legitimate need to break out of that
• 35:10
  structure,
• 35:12
  which involves increasing entropy.
• 35:15
  >> No,
• 35:16
  it doesn't work that way. I I see your
• 35:18
  point, but if you have that example of
• 35:21
  religion and you have that example of
• 35:23
  doctrine and and and things that they do
• 35:26
  and rituals that they do and so on, only
• 35:30
  if those things are helping people. If
• 35:34
  those things are helping people grow,
• 35:35
  helping people become love. If those are
• 35:37
  just rituals that people do because they
• 35:40
  do them and because somebody taught them
• 35:42
  to do them, that has no value. That is
• 35:44
  not low entropy. That is that is high
• 35:48
  entropy.
• 35:48
  >> Well, they are according to your
• 35:49
  definition.
• 35:51
  >> Yes. Now, my definition of entropy has
• 35:54
  not only, you know, it's not
• 35:57
  it's not just whether the particles are
• 35:59
  moving, you know, faster or slower.
• 36:02
  That's that's more of the thermodynamic
• 36:04
  viewpoint. Mine has to do with the
• 36:07
  significance, the value of what you do.
• 36:12
  So, if the things you do cause
• 36:15
  people to grow and are helpful in the
• 36:17
  long term, then that's lower entropy. If
• 36:20
  they cause dissension and disruption and
• 36:24
  tear things apart, then that's high
• 36:26
  entropy. Now, if you have something like
• 36:29
  a ritual that you just do because you do
• 36:31
  it, there's no value in that. It's not
• 36:33
  helping. It's not making anybody better.
• 36:35
  And even though the people do that, and
• 36:37
  maybe their ritual is to pray 10 hours a
• 36:40
  day, well, if that's not really helping
• 36:44
  others
• 36:45
  particularly, it's not about self, love
• 36:48
  is about others. If that's not really
• 36:50
  helpful in the world, it's just
• 36:51
  something you do, then that is not a low
• 36:54
  entropy process. That's that could be
• 36:58
  maybe neutral. You may not be hurting
• 37:00
  anybody either, but you're not actually
• 37:03
  helping. You're not part of the
• 37:04
  solution. So, entropy has to do with the
• 37:07
  the significance, what you contribute,
• 37:10
  what you um
• 37:12
  you know
• 37:14
  I guess uh you know, it's a
• 37:16
  it's a measure of your ability to be
• 37:19
  helpful
• 37:20
  and and cooperative
• 37:23
  with with other people.
• 37:24
  >> Wouldn't it be fair then to say that
• 37:26
  you're working with a definition of
• 37:29
  entropy which is outside of the way it's
• 37:33
  used normally in physics?
• 37:35
  >> Well, yes, in in just some aspects, but
• 37:38
  in many aspects it's exactly the same.
• 37:41
  You don't get to zero. Energy always has
• 37:43
  to go in. If you don't do anything and
• 37:45
  let it sit, entropy increases. All those
• 37:48
  things are the same as the entropy. Now,
• 37:51
  in thermodynamics, it's about heat.
• 37:55
  For the most part, it's about
• 37:56
  temperature and heat. And yes,
• 38:00
  eventually, you know, if things get
• 38:02
  hotter, then everything's bouncing
• 38:04
  around and then there's more chaos
• 38:05
  involved, right? And things get smaller.
• 38:07
  And if you take a system down to
• 38:10
  absolute zero temperature, you get no
• 38:12
  entropy. That is a very narrow
• 38:14
  definition about the physical world.
• 38:17
  And no, mine is not about that. It's not
• 38:19
  about the heat generated by the people,
• 38:22
  you know, who are doing good deeds. It's
• 38:24
  It's not that, but it's very very
• 38:26
  similar to entropy in most of the
• 38:28
  attributes of entropy as as in
• 38:31
  thermodynamics. But here,
• 38:34
  the way you lower entropy isn't by
• 38:36
  freezing things. The way you lower
• 38:39
  entropy is by becoming love, caring and
• 38:42
  sharing, you see. So, it's a
• 38:45
  It's not the action.
• 38:48
  You see, it's not the behavior that
• 38:49
  counts. It's the intent behind the
• 38:52
  behavior that counts. So, yes, you can
• 38:54
  have Let's say you're
• 38:56
  you are very kind. You act very kind.
• 39:00
  Every time you see someplace you can
• 39:01
  help, you just jump in and help because
• 39:04
  you think that's the right thing to do.
• 39:06
  Well, that's acting kind. It's different
• 39:08
  than being kind. If you act kind, that
• 39:11
  doesn't lower your entropy much. It may
• 39:13
  lower it a little bit cuz you are being
• 39:15
  helpful, but you really to lower your
• 39:18
  entropy, you have to be kind, and that
• 39:21
  then gains you points in this virtual
• 39:24
  reality game where you level up if
• 39:26
  you've been,
• 39:27
  you know, being kind and being helpful
• 39:30
  and being supportive, then you evolve to
• 39:34
  a higher state. We just call higher
• 39:36
  state a lower entropy state. And the
• 39:39
  next time you go around in this virtual
• 39:42
  reality entropy reduction trainer, you
• 39:44
  start with a little level of entropy
• 39:47
  that you have earned up to this point
• 39:49
  through sometimes evolving, sometimes
• 39:51
  devolving. So, you start wherever you
• 39:54
  are. So, it's a a progression that
• 39:56
  builds. Now,
• 39:58
  thinking about Well, what's the end
• 39:59
  point? You know, where do you go? Where
• 40:01
  does it Where does it hit so close to
• 40:03
  zero that there's nothing going on
• 40:05
  anymore?
• 40:06
  Well, the way it works is that
• 40:09
  the more you
• 40:11
  contribute, the more that you care and
• 40:14
  help,
• 40:15
  the more choices there are. The bigger
• 40:18
  you know, the bigger the thing gets. So,
• 40:20
  you take a whole bunch of people and all
• 40:22
  they do is stand around and look at each
• 40:23
  other, then nobody does anything. Well,
• 40:25
  that will degenerate very quickly.
• 40:27
  Everybody will starve to death
• 40:28
  eventually. So,
• 40:29
  if you help, if you cooperate, if you
• 40:31
  build, then you create more choices.
• 40:35
  There's only a certain number of choices
• 40:36
  if you're constrained to just standing
• 40:38
  there. But, now you can do these things.
• 40:40
  So, the more you go toward lowering
• 40:43
  entropy, the more possibilities
• 40:46
  there are for you to move into because
• 40:48
  you create something more useful, more
• 40:51
  functional, which creates
• 40:53
  more things that you can do. So,
• 40:56
  evolution is just an open-ended process.
• 40:59
  And the more you evolve
• 41:01
  down that process, the more spaces there
• 41:05
  are for you to evolve into because the
• 41:07
  more choices you have. So, it doesn't
• 41:09
  get to the point where everybody says,
• 41:11
  "We're done. Stop." You know, it's too
• 41:13
  near zero. You're always expanding.
• 41:16
  You're always growing. Now, let's say
• 41:17
  that everybody that's in this game on
• 41:20
  Earth here, everybody gets to be a very
• 41:22
  low entropy being. So, then what's next?
• 41:26
  Well, we'd have to learn how to care and
• 41:28
  be nice to each other. And then, there's
• 41:31
  all sorts of things that could happen.
• 41:32
  One, you could go to some other reality
• 41:35
  frame. Maybe this frame would have been
• 41:37
  had, you know, done as much as it could
• 41:39
  do. You'd go to a different reality
• 41:40
  frame. Or, you might find out that
• 41:43
  there's this uh bunch of uh
• 41:46
  aliens from some other uh you know, part
• 41:48
  of the universe and they look like
• 41:50
  lizards with great big teeth. And now
• 41:52
  you have to learn to love them and
• 41:53
  interact with them, too, just like you
• 41:55
  had to interact with other humans who
• 41:57
  weren't nice. So, now you have a whole
• 42:00
  new set of challenges. So, the system
• 42:04
  that's creating this can create anything
• 42:06
  it needs to perturb the system to be
• 42:09
  full of challenges. So, the challenges
• 42:12
  are basically unending. The system is a
• 42:15
  virtual reality. It can create
• 42:17
  challenges. It can create challenges
• 42:19
  just in natural behavior. Earthquakes
• 42:21
  create a lot of challenges for people.
• 42:23
  It uh
• 42:25
  could be any sort of thing. So, it's not
• 42:27
  like you run out of possibilities cuz
• 42:30
  you've done everything that can be done.
• 42:32
  Things to be done keep getting bigger
• 42:34
  and bigger as you evolve. So, you don't
• 42:38
  get to that stale point where nothing
• 42:41
  can happen anymore.
• 42:43
  >> You know, in an earlier interview, I
• 42:45
  referred to you as a prophet of love.
• 42:48
  And and I think that's true. I think
• 42:50
  that your description of people's
• 42:54
  ethical behavior is spot-on.
• 42:58
  Truly, but I have to say I still think
• 43:01
  that equating
• 43:03
  high ethical behavior with low entropy
• 43:06
  and the and the reverse is
• 43:10
  it's a misuse of physics to that's what
• 43:13
  I think. Because it strikes me that
• 43:18
  high entropy or higher entropy also
• 43:21
  involves more choices
• 43:23
  for people. In fact, there's a whole
• 43:25
  school of thought
• 43:27
  called chaos magic
• 43:29
  which suggests that as conditions become
• 43:32
  chaotic, there are more opportunities
• 43:35
  for choice and for change and growth.
• 43:37
  >> There are different opportunities. I
• 43:39
  would say not more. There are different
• 43:41
  opportunities. Yes, chaos theory is one
• 43:44
  that if you have chaos, that within that
• 43:45
  chaos, you'll have little islands of
• 43:49
  smoothness, little little islands of low
• 43:52
  entropy. And those islands will move
• 43:55
  around and chaos will sometimes come and
• 43:57
  over run them, but another little island
• 43:58
  will pop up here. And I can can you I
• 44:03
  can explain
• 44:05
  why that works and how it works that
• 44:06
  way, that's another one of those
• 44:08
  mysteries that uh this model does. Yes,
• 44:11
  that's true. Now, I said my entropy is
• 44:13
  just a little different. It's not
• 44:15
  exactly the same, but it has most of the
• 44:17
  attributes. But, one of the things
• 44:19
  that's different about it, it's not just
• 44:23
  It's not just what you do. It's not your
• 44:27
  action.
• 44:28
  It's your intent. You see, that's
• 44:30
  different. Now, intent is a non-physical
• 44:32
  thing. So, it's we take it out of the
• 44:34
  realm of the physical here. Intention is
• 44:38
  what the consciousness does. So, we step
• 44:41
  outside of the physical world. Now,
• 44:42
  that's a little different than the
• 44:44
  entropy of physics. So, intention is the
• 44:46
  key. Again, acting is civilizing, but
• 44:50
  being is,
• 44:52
  you know, lowers the entropy so much
• 44:54
  more. So, it's got a non-physical
• 44:57
  component. It's also it has a
• 45:00
  a um
• 45:01
  It has an interpretive component in that
• 45:04
  it has to do with the significance of
• 45:06
  what you do. If you do something nice,
• 45:09
  you help a mouse escape a trap or
• 45:11
  something, well, that's good. That's
• 45:13
  very nice. But, if you save a whole
• 45:16
  building full of children, that's maybe
• 45:18
  even better, particularly if there's a
• 45:19
  lot of risk in it to yourself. There was
• 45:21
  no risk in freeing a mouse, but there's
• 45:23
  a lot of risk in going, say, into a
• 45:25
  burning building and helping people get
• 45:27
  out. So, depending on what you do,
• 45:29
  what's involved in it, the risks you
• 45:32
  take, how hard or easy it is, and all of
• 45:35
  these things are subjective
• 45:37
  things. These are not things that
• 45:39
  science quantifies.
• 45:41
  That determines your entropy. So, in
• 45:43
  this way, my entropy is different. It's
• 45:47
  custom-made to fit this this theory. It
• 45:50
  has components to it that are
• 45:52
  non-physical, like intention. It has
• 45:55
  components that are
• 45:57
  not quantifiable,
• 45:59
  like
• 46:00
  you know, difficulty of the problem and
• 46:03
  how much growth did it make you come if
• 46:05
  you're a really high entropy person and
• 46:07
  you do some really amazing wonderful
• 46:09
  thing, well, that's a bigger step than
• 46:11
  if you were able to do real amazing
• 46:13
  things and you just did another one.
• 46:15
  Well, that's not so much growth. You
• 46:17
  see? So, it's different than the physics
• 46:21
  entropy, but it has much of the same
• 46:23
  attributes as entropy and there really
• 46:26
  isn't any
• 46:28
  better way to describe it because it's
• 46:31
  it has the the idea of you have to put
• 46:34
  in work to lower the entropy. If you
• 46:36
  don't, it increases. It has to do with
• 46:40
  with order, you know,
• 46:42
  information is order. Order has to do
• 46:45
  with lowering entropy. So, there's so
• 46:47
  many parallels to it. I just call it
• 46:49
  entry, but it is my own version of
• 46:51
  entropy. It is not just taking the
• 46:53
  physics version. But, the concept of
• 46:56
  entropy fits it so well that I use that
• 46:59
  rather than make up something else and
• 47:01
  try to give it a new name and call it
• 47:03
  that this would be confusing.
• 47:05
  I think more confusing than than uh
• 47:09
  using the word entropy.
• 47:11
  >> I get a little sensitive about it
• 47:13
  because as a parapsychologist,
• 47:16
  we use terms from physics. Non-locality
• 47:20
  is becoming a very popular term now to
• 47:22
  explain paranormal things and I'm aware
• 47:27
  of the fact that some physicists think
• 47:29
  we're taking a term from their domain
• 47:32
  and applying it to our domain, but in a
• 47:35
  different way. We're misusing their term
• 47:37
  from their point of view. So,
• 47:40
  I just wonder if if that's a good thing
• 47:43
  to do or not.
• 47:44
  >> I think that is a good thing to do, you
• 47:46
  know,
• 47:47
  particularly in English. The English
• 47:49
  language is a is a language that
• 47:50
  requires interpretation.
• 47:53
  And you know, if you take a
• 47:56
  a a
• 47:57
  of German or a page and a half of
• 48:00
  Spanish and convert it into English, you
• 48:03
  only get a half a page.
• 48:05
  English is a much more compact language,
• 48:07
  and that's because those other languages
• 48:09
  tend to spell out every detail and
• 48:11
  nuance, and we don't. English
• 48:15
  requires the listener to
• 48:19
  guess, to use clues, what's the subject
• 48:22
  about, what does he mean by using that
• 48:25
  word, and
• 48:28
  that's the nature of our language. It it
• 48:30
  tends to be supportive of you taking
• 48:33
  words and using them in a way that is
• 48:36
  meaningful to you, and others just have
• 48:39
  to understand that okay, you're a
• 48:41
  physicist and you're talking about
• 48:43
  non-locality, and that's a very specific
• 48:45
  thing in quantum mechanics, and you're
• 48:47
  using it in a general way, which means
• 48:50
  non-locality it happens somewhere with
• 48:52
  no cause. You know, you do this here and
• 48:54
  somewhere else you get something and
• 48:57
  it's non-local. It you can't see the
• 49:00
  arrow of causality going from here to
• 49:02
  there, is basically what that means.
• 49:04
  Well, that's a perfectly legitimate way
• 49:07
  to talk about non-locality. Now you have
• 49:09
  non-locality means a couple of things.
• 49:12
  That's not a problem in English. We have
• 49:14
  that all the time. You know, there's a
• 49:16
  bear, bear, and bear. They're all the
• 49:19
  same words and they all mean totally
• 49:21
  different things. So, it's just typical
• 49:24
  in English that you use words and
• 49:27
  phrases that convey
• 49:30
  something that you're trying to explain,
• 49:33
  and as long as you you you tell people,
• 49:36
  "This is what I mean. This is what I'm
• 49:38
  trying to convey. I'm trying to convey
• 49:40
  that I do something here, and with no
• 49:42
  arrow of physical causality something
• 49:45
  else happens somewhere else,
• 49:47
  or in some other way, and that's That's
• 49:50
  I mean by non- non-local. There's not a
• 49:52
  local cause and effect to make that
• 49:55
  happen. So, you explain that, then it's
• 49:57
  a perfectly good term, and the
• 49:59
  physicists will just have to get over
• 50:01
  that people have hijacked that term,
• 50:03
  given it a slightly different
• 50:05
  definition, but it's a good way to
• 50:07
  describe it. If you had to describe it
• 50:10
  in another way, it would probably be
• 50:12
  more clumsy. It wouldn't you know, it
• 50:15
  wouldn't work as well. So, I would say
• 50:17
  the same thing with entropy. I use that,
• 50:19
  and I explain what I mean, and so on,
• 50:21
  and you know, get over it, guys. It's
• 50:24
  just using a word that has a lot of the
• 50:27
  same properties as the word you use,
• 50:29
  which makes it convenient cuz people can
• 50:31
  understand it more easily. If I try to
• 50:33
  redefine something and call everything,
• 50:36
  you know, something different, now it's
• 50:38
  a very difficult concept to understand,
• 50:40
  but most people get entropy. You know,
• 50:42
  they understand that immediately.
• 50:45
  Higher entropy, things fall apart, it's
• 50:47
  disintegrating, it's going to hell in a
• 50:49
  handbasket, right? And low entropy,
• 50:51
  things pull together and work better.
• 50:53
  You know, they they have more form, they
• 50:55
  have more function. And when you think
• 50:58
  of that as a social system rather than a
• 51:00
  crystal, then it makes a lot of sense.
• 51:03
  People working together can do more than
• 51:06
  any one of them could do by themselves.
• 51:09
  All of them working by themselves won't
• 51:10
  create will not provide the value that
• 51:14
  people working together can provide. And
• 51:17
  that's pretty obvious. You don't really
• 51:19
  have to explain that to people because
• 51:20
  anybody can just think about that and
• 51:22
  say, "Yeah, that's right." So,
• 51:25
  cooperating, caring, working together is
• 51:28
  low entropy. Easy to understand. So, I
• 51:31
  would say that the physicists need to
• 51:33
  get over their uh their thing about,
• 51:35
  "This is my word, and you can't use it."
• 51:38
  Of course you can use it, as long as you
• 51:40
  define it, and you understand the
• 51:42
  differences, and it means something
• 51:43
  rational to you, and it's a perfectly
• 51:45
  good description.
• 51:47
  It's the way our language works. Now,
• 51:48
  maybe in German they would force some
• 51:50
  some more rigor to things, but English
• 51:54
  is full of things like that where you
• 51:56
  have the same word means two or three or
• 51:59
  four different things, you know. We have
• 52:01
  words that are spelled exactly alike,
• 52:04
  but they're two different words, you
• 52:05
  know, tear and tear. You tear something
• 52:07
  apart and you have tears and it's t e a
• 52:10
  r, you know, it's the same thing. So, we
• 52:12
  have lots of these things that in
• 52:15
  English that are
• 52:17
  understandable by context. You get the
• 52:20
  context of what's being said, you can
• 52:22
  decide whether it's a tear or a tear
• 52:25
  when you're reading it, you know, and it
• 52:27
  doesn't confuse people.
• 52:29
  Oh, you know, she
• 52:31
  wiped her eyes because of all the tears?
• 52:35
  No, it doesn't make any sense. Tears,
• 52:37
  okay, and you go with that. So, it's
• 52:39
  just the way our language is and I think
• 52:41
  it's a very good way. It's a very
• 52:42
  flexible and very compact, but it's not
• 52:46
  real precise. And that's why we have to
• 52:50
  talk and communicate and write and
• 52:53
  you know,
• 52:54
  make it so that people will understand
• 52:56
  what we're what we're saying.
• 52:57
  >> And it's also, I suppose, important for
• 53:00
  our viewers to understand, if they don't
• 53:03
  already realize, that your model is a
• 53:06
  descriptive model that you wrote out in
• 53:09
  the English language, you lecture in the
• 53:11
  English language, and and it's
• 53:13
  non-mathematical.
• 53:15
  >> Yes, it is. You know, and the science of
• 53:18
  biology is exactly the same way.
• 53:21
  You know, Darwin got on his boat, what
• 53:23
  was it, the Beagle, and you know, 4
• 53:24
  years he went around and what did he do?
• 53:26
  He observed. He took samples. And then
• 53:29
  he looked at those samples and said,
• 53:31
  "Well, how did they correlate? Why we
• 53:32
  get this one and this one's a little
• 53:33
  different and that's a little
• 53:34
  different." And after looking at what he
• 53:38
  collected,
• 53:40
  you know, the the facts that he put
• 53:42
  together, then he came up with a theory
• 53:45
  of how they correlated with each other,
• 53:47
  and he called that evolution. They
• 53:49
  evolve from here to here. So, he comes
• 53:51
  up with a theory. That's not
• 53:52
  mathematical. Now, you can maybe put
• 53:54
  some statistics in it, but it's really
• 53:57
  not mathematical. Science does not have
• 53:59
  to be mathematical. Science has to be
• 54:03
  logical. And some science, like biology,
• 54:06
  is not real mathematical. It's
• 54:08
  observational. You observe it, you find
• 54:11
  patterns, you find correlations, and you
• 54:14
  come to conclusions, and you make
• 54:16
  theories. And that theory may be proven
• 54:18
  wrong, or may be proven right. It may be
• 54:20
  stronger or weaker over time, but that's
• 54:23
  how it grows. So, biology is also a
• 54:25
  science. I don't think anybody would say
• 54:27
  biology's not a science because it's not
• 54:29
  mathematical.
• 54:30
  Observation, and being logical about
• 54:34
  those observations, is good science. So,
• 54:38
  that it's non-mathematical. Now, you
• 54:39
  tell that to a physicist, and they'll
• 54:41
  probably object, you know, because they
• 54:44
  only function within the physical world.
• 54:47
  Mathematics is nothing other than the
• 54:50
  logic of quantity. Quantities have their
• 54:53
  own logic. One here, one here, there's
• 54:55
  two. You know, that's that's And you can
• 54:58
  actually reduce math to logical
• 55:00
  statements. You know, this set and that
• 55:02
  set, and so on. So, it's the logic of
• 55:05
  quantity. The physical world is all
• 55:08
  about quantity.
• 55:10
  Physicists will tell you, "If I can't
• 55:12
  measure it, it doesn't exist."
• 55:13
  Because it means if I can't measure it,
• 55:15
  means I can't interact with it. And if
• 55:16
  something I can't interact with, then
• 55:18
  that's mysticism. That's something else.
• 55:21
  So, if it's not measurable, if it isn't
• 55:24
  physical, you see, if it's not in terms
• 55:27
  of quantity, measurable quantity, then
• 55:30
  it's irrelevant or doesn't exist. So, of
• 55:33
  course, if you're describing in physical
• 55:35
  world, it's going to be mathematical.
• 55:38
  You know, I mean, that's obvious. And
• 55:40
  that's some big mystery in philosophy.
• 55:42
  Why is it that our science of the world
• 55:45
  and the way it is is so mathematical?
• 55:48
  Well, it's quantity. Mathematics is the
• 55:50
  logic of quantity. Of course, it's
• 55:52
  mathematical. But saying there can't be
• 55:54
  anything else that's rational or makes
• 55:56
  sense or logical that's not mathematical
• 55:59
  is nonsense.
• 56:00
  Look at our our world, our you know,
• 56:03
  where we live. There's this objective
• 56:06
  world. I would correlate that with the
• 56:09
  props on the stage.
• 56:10
  And then there's the subjective world.
• 56:13
  And that's all the ideas in in the minds
• 56:15
  and the interactions of the players that
• 56:17
  are playing out of play on the stage.
• 56:20
  Well, which is really more important? Do
• 56:23
  people come to watch the props?
• 56:25
  No. They come to watch the actors and
• 56:28
  hear what they say and what they feel
• 56:30
  and how they interact and what the story
• 56:31
  goes. Our subjective life is much more
• 56:35
  rich,
• 56:36
  much more varied, much more meaningful.
• 56:39
  I mean, that's where love and caring and
• 56:42
  justice and beauty and all those things
• 56:44
  are subjective.
• 56:45
  All the things that are most important
• 56:48
  to us tend to be in the subjective
• 56:50
  world. Over here on the objective world,
• 56:52
  it's all the stuff.
• 56:53
  All right, there's a lot of wonderful
• 56:54
  things there. There's computers and cars
• 56:56
  and you know, rocks and rivers. But
• 56:59
  that's the stuff. That's the props.
• 57:01
  Nobody goes to watch the props. The real
• 57:03
  action is in the subjective world. So,
• 57:06
  to say this objective world that's
• 57:08
  mathematical, that's the only real thing
• 57:11
  and that's where all the action is and
• 57:13
  everything else is a hallucination,
• 57:15
  that's nonsense. That's the small part.
• 57:19
  That's the little part of our life is
• 57:21
  the stuff we have to live with. The big
• 57:23
  part of our life is things like
• 57:25
  relationships,
• 57:27
  right? That's not physical.
• 57:30
  That's all in the subjective world. So
• 57:33
  to say that if it's not mathematical,
• 57:35
  it's not going to be science is to say
• 57:37
  science relegates itself to just the
• 57:39
  physical world. Science can't study
• 57:42
  consciousness. Science can't study, you
• 57:45
  know, psychology isn't really a science
• 57:47
  because they're not measuring things.
• 57:49
  They're measuring attributes. So, yes,
• 57:53
  you have your hard sciences that are the
• 57:55
  real sciences and then you have all your
• 57:57
  social sciences that aren't really
• 57:59
  sciences at all. Well, that's a very uh
• 58:03
  biased view from people who just
• 58:08
  limit themselves to mathematical facts
• 58:11
  of the physical reality. But my point is
• 58:14
  is that's not what's important to us.
• 58:16
  That's not what's significance and
• 58:18
  science can play in the subjective.
• 58:22
  Science isn't just mathematical things
• 58:25
  that are objective. Science is what
• 58:28
  Darwin did. Science is what biology
• 58:31
  does. You look at
• 58:33
  the facts, you collect information, and
• 58:36
  you see the correlations, you see the
• 58:38
  significance, you come to conclusions,
• 58:40
  you come up with theories, you test the
• 58:42
  theories, and so on. That is also
• 58:45
  science. And the physicists need to uh
• 58:49
  also apply their quantum physics and
• 58:51
  other things to consciousness as well as
• 58:55
  other things. They need to look at it
• 58:57
  from a scientific perspective. Okay, we
• 59:00
  have paranormal things. Well understood,
• 59:03
  they've been done a thousand times in a
• 59:04
  hundred different labs all over the
• 59:06
  world. Yes, people can remote view.
• 59:10
  No, it's it's not a is that real? Can
• 59:13
  they really do that? I mean, there's so
• 59:14
  much information out there, so much
• 59:16
  study, so much good protocols. Of
• 59:19
  course, it's a thing. Now, why wouldn't
• 59:22
  science want to say, "We don't
• 59:24
  understand that. Let's just try to study
• 59:26
  what the logic is. But they don't. They
• 59:28
  say, "Um, not in our ball park. We don't
• 59:31
  do that."
• 59:32
  >> Well, I think that's changing.
• 59:34
  >> It's changing and then it's wonderful.
• 59:35
  It is changing. I'm trying to help make
• 59:37
  it change. I've I've got a bunch of
• 59:39
  physicists together at Cusack that we're
• 59:42
  going to work on consciousness and I
• 59:43
  think that's a breakthrough all by
• 59:45
  itself.
• 59:45
  >> Cusack, once again, is the center for
• 59:48
  the unification of science and
• 59:51
  consciousness.
• 59:51
  >> Yes. So, we need to get our scientists
• 59:55
  out of the
• 59:56
  you know, get them thinking out of the
• 59:57
  box. Science is logic, not math. And
• 1:00:02
  logical My model is logical. My whole
• 1:00:05
  model is just built on logic. Just like
• 1:00:07
  Darwin's and just like biology. It's
• 1:00:09
  mostly observational and then the logic
• 1:00:11
  of how these observations connect with
• 1:00:13
  each other and what do they mean?
• 1:00:15
  So,
• 1:00:17
  science needs to break out of its of its
• 1:00:20
  you know, its prison that it's made for
• 1:00:23
  itself, which is being materialistic.
• 1:00:26
  That's a prison. They can't look or
• 1:00:28
  study anything else. If it were up to
• 1:00:29
  the physicists, there'd be no biology.
• 1:00:32
  You know, we'd still be bleeding people
• 1:00:33
  with leeches or something.
• 1:00:35
  But
• 1:00:36
  science can be done in
• 1:00:40
  the
• 1:00:42
  subjective world just as well as it can
• 1:00:44
  be done in the objective world.
• 1:00:46
  >> I I concur.
• 1:00:47
  >> Yeah, but you need statistics. You need
• 1:00:49
  you know, you need the
• 1:00:51
  the sample n to be hundreds of thousands
• 1:00:54
  rather than you know, rather than a
• 1:00:56
  hundred.
• 1:00:57
  You know, the number of subjects in a
• 1:00:59
  particular test. And so, there's some
• 1:01:02
  things that are hard to do. It's not as
• 1:01:04
  cut and dried as the physical
• 1:01:06
  objective world, but it has much more
• 1:01:09
  rewarding and much more valuable because
• 1:01:11
  that's where our value is in our lives.
• 1:01:14
  >> Let's talk about synchronicity.
• 1:01:18
  You
• 1:01:21
  I presume, and you correct me if I'm
• 1:01:23
  wrong that that when synchronicities
• 1:01:26
  occur that are very striking, you would
• 1:01:29
  probably suggest that it it is an
• 1:01:33
  information stream that is directed to
• 1:01:37
  us from the larger consciousness system.
• 1:01:41
  >> That is the case. In most cases, it's
• 1:01:44
  the way it is. Some cases, it's just
• 1:01:46
  part of the way
• 1:01:47
  the structure of consciousness works.
• 1:01:50
  But it's the general way to think about
• 1:01:52
  it is that the larger consciousness
• 1:01:53
  system sees somebody who's
• 1:01:57
  close or at least working on learning
• 1:01:59
  something. And by that I mean growing
• 1:02:01
  up, lowering our entropy. And they see
• 1:02:04
  that if they just had this little
• 1:02:06
  factor, that little factor, met this
• 1:02:08
  person or read that book, or had enough
• 1:02:11
  money to go there, you know, and take
• 1:02:13
  that course, then they could take a big
• 1:02:16
  step forward. Now, because
• 1:02:19
  when we lower our entropy, the entropy
• 1:02:21
  of the whole system's lowered because
• 1:02:23
  we're part of that system. So, the
• 1:02:26
  system itself has a
• 1:02:29
  you know,
• 1:02:30
  it has good cause to help us learn and
• 1:02:34
  grow because it helps it evolve as well.
• 1:02:38
  So,
• 1:02:39
  there are people that I call persons of
• 1:02:41
  interest to the larger consciousness
• 1:02:43
  system. Those people are the people who
• 1:02:45
  are growing. They're trying to be more
• 1:02:48
  positive. They're trying to be more
• 1:02:50
  caring and more helpful. They're trying
• 1:02:52
  to let go of fear and ego. They're
• 1:02:53
  making an effort uh to be a a
• 1:02:56
  contributor and not just a user. And
• 1:02:58
  these people then are on a growth path.
• 1:03:01
  And they're persons of interest to the
• 1:03:03
  larger consciousness system. And if the
• 1:03:06
  system can do something that hides in
• 1:03:09
  the probability someplace so it doesn't,
• 1:03:11
  you know, create a a problem or some
• 1:03:13
  kind of dysfunction, then it can help.
• 1:03:16
  It can do things. It can nudge things to
• 1:03:20
  being to help that person
• 1:03:22
  maybe meet a challenge that they really
• 1:03:24
  need to meet, or get a book that they
• 1:03:27
  really need to read that fills in some
• 1:03:30
  information that they desperately don't
• 1:03:32
  have, but they need. And those
• 1:03:34
  synchronicities happen to people who are
• 1:03:37
  trying to grow. Now, let's say you don't
• 1:03:39
  care about growth, you don't understand
• 1:03:41
  why you're here, you think the reason
• 1:03:42
  here is to have as much fun as you can,
• 1:03:45
  how many parties you can go to, or or
• 1:03:47
  whatever,
• 1:03:48
  then you're not a person of interest,
• 1:03:50
  and synchronicities don't happen to you
• 1:03:52
  very much. On the other hand, if you're
• 1:03:55
  a person of interest,
• 1:03:57
  and you really are growing,
• 1:03:58
  synchronicities happen to you all the
• 1:04:01
  time, every day, two or three times a
• 1:04:04
  day. Everything you really, really need
• 1:04:07
  falls at your feet just as you need it.
• 1:04:10
  And yes, if that happened once, you'd
• 1:04:12
  say, "Well, that was good luck." But if
• 1:04:14
  it happens daily, monthly, it's part of
• 1:04:17
  your life that what you need falls at
• 1:04:21
  your feet just as you need it. You
• 1:04:22
  realize it's part of a plan. It's part
• 1:04:24
  of a structure. It's not just random
• 1:04:27
  occurrences. So, people who are growing
• 1:04:30
  and are low entropy, they just
• 1:04:33
  seem to be very lucky and lead charmed
• 1:04:36
  lives because just the people they need
• 1:04:38
  to meet, just the books they need to
• 1:04:40
  read, just the the things they need to
• 1:04:43
  know about just come to them just as
• 1:04:45
  they need to know them. And that's the
• 1:04:47
  system nudging us because we're trying
• 1:04:50
  to grow up. So, yes, there was a book
• 1:04:53
  about that written back in the '70s or
• 1:04:55
  something about synchronicities, and I
• 1:04:58
  can't remember the author, but
• 1:05:00
  >> There have been many books about
• 1:05:02
  synchronicity. What I wanted to share
• 1:05:04
  with you is a synchronicity that
• 1:05:06
  happened to me this morning.
• 1:05:09
  >> Uh-huh.
• 1:05:10
  >> I got a comment from a viewer out of the
• 1:05:15
  blue who had obviously no idea that we
• 1:05:18
  had this interview scheduled today. Our
• 1:05:21
  first interview, I think, in about 9
• 1:05:23
  months.
• 1:05:24
  And this viewer sent a very, very
• 1:05:27
  lengthy post saying "You know, I wish
• 1:05:31
  somebody would ask Tom Campbell these
• 1:05:33
  questions."
• 1:05:35
  >> [laughter]
• 1:05:36
  >> Yes.
• 1:05:37
  >> A long list of questions
• 1:05:41
  that that this individual would like me
• 1:05:43
  to ask you. So, I have some of them.
• 1:05:46
  >> Oh, well, great. That's good. Yes,
• 1:05:47
  that's a synchronicity. It just happens
• 1:05:50
  and you wonder "What's the probability
• 1:05:52
  of that?" But, just when you get this
• 1:05:55
  letter, I'm showing up the next day, you
• 1:05:57
  know.
• 1:05:57
  >> Not the next day, the
• 1:05:59
  same day.
• 1:06:00
  >> [laughter]
• 1:06:00
  >> Yeah, well, my life is full of those as
• 1:06:02
  well. And as you talk to people who are
• 1:06:04
  low entropy, who are caring, sharing,
• 1:06:06
  nice people, you'll find that they have
• 1:06:09
  synchronicities all the time as well
• 1:06:12
  because they are engaged in the purpose
• 1:06:16
  of being here, which is to grow up,
• 1:06:19
  lower your entropy, move toward becoming
• 1:06:21
  love. And if you're doing it, it's like
• 1:06:23
  now you're playing the game. You're part
• 1:06:25
  of the process and you get helped. You
• 1:06:28
  get the things you you need. And your
• 1:06:31
  growth then speeds up. But, if you're
• 1:06:33
  clueless, wandering around on a playing
• 1:06:36
  field having no idea what the game is,
• 1:06:39
  then if a synchronicity was given to
• 1:06:41
  you, you'd look at it and say, "I
• 1:06:42
  probably just made that up." Or "Yeah,
• 1:06:44
  that was just chance." You'd brush it
• 1:06:46
  off and it wouldn't
• 1:06:48
  you wouldn't get the same thing out of
• 1:06:51
  it. It wouldn't make a connection for
• 1:06:53
  you. So,
• 1:06:54
  if people who are who reject that,
• 1:06:58
  they don't get it. The system doesn't go
• 1:07:00
  out of its way to waste its time trying
• 1:07:02
  to help people who won't get it. So, you
• 1:07:06
  can find some people
• 1:07:08
  who say, "I've never had a
• 1:07:09
  synchronicity. What do you mean
• 1:07:10
  synchronicities? That's a lot of BS. If
• 1:07:13
  that's the case, then why don't I have
• 1:07:14
  any?" Well, that's the reason.
• 1:07:16
  >> [laughter]
• 1:07:17
  >> They can't learn from it, so they they
• 1:07:19
  don't get it. You can learn from it, it
• 1:07:22
  happens to you, and you go, "Ah,
• 1:07:24
  right on schedule. Yes, here's the
• 1:07:26
  questions I I'm asked to to do, so sure,
• 1:07:29
  that'd be good to ask this guy's
• 1:07:31
  question.
• 1:07:32
  >> Well, the first question he wanted to
• 1:07:34
  deal with had to do with, and I don't
• 1:07:37
  think you and I have ever discussed
• 1:07:39
  this,
• 1:07:40
  the idea that you apparently in other
• 1:07:44
  talks, because as I don't recall you
• 1:07:46
  mentioning it to me, have had some sort
• 1:07:49
  of communication
• 1:07:51
  with I will call them non-human
• 1:07:53
  intelligence.
• 1:07:56
  >> Well,
• 1:07:57
  yes, I have. Now,
• 1:08:00
  let's talk about these kind of
• 1:08:02
  experiences. Many people will call these
• 1:08:04
  out of body. And all that means is that
• 1:08:07
  it doesn't happen here.
• 1:08:09
  >> Mhm.
• 1:08:09
  >> Yeah, it doesn't happen in your backyard
• 1:08:12
  or in your bedroom or whatever, it's
• 1:08:14
  someplace else that
• 1:08:16
  is more dream-like. You know, your
• 1:08:18
  dreams don't happen here, either,
• 1:08:20
  they're someplace else, some other
• 1:08:22
  reality of consciousness and awareness,
• 1:08:25
  and not here. Well, that's true. And I
• 1:08:30
  would say that most of the
• 1:08:33
  UFO and and um
• 1:08:36
  what do you call it? The ET experiences
• 1:08:40
  are experiences within consciousness.
• 1:08:42
  The consciousness system is creating
• 1:08:45
  these experiences, and it's accelerating
• 1:08:47
  creating these experiences for a
• 1:08:48
  purpose.
• 1:08:50
  And
• 1:08:51
  the purpose is
• 1:08:53
  to blast people out of their ruts of
• 1:08:56
  thinking, what they what make them think
• 1:08:58
  about possibilities, a bigger reality
• 1:09:01
  than just us here. Open minds, because
• 1:09:05
  once you open-minded, it's easier to
• 1:09:06
  shift that openness from here to here
• 1:09:09
  than it is to get it open in the first
• 1:09:11
  place. Opening a mind is the first
• 1:09:13
  hardest step. So, the ET thing opens
• 1:09:16
  people's minds. And you see, the larger
• 1:09:19
  conscious system has always been saying,
• 1:09:22
  "We have to grow up. We have to be
• 1:09:23
  kinder and gentler, etc., etc." And if
• 1:09:26
  you look at the ET literature, you know,
• 1:09:28
  that people have been
• 1:09:30
  recording their conversations with
• 1:09:32
  aliens for 100 years. You can go to
• 1:09:35
  Turkey, and there's a whole organization
• 1:09:37
  over there that's been going on for 50
• 1:09:39
  years, and they have like 800 volumes of
• 1:09:42
  stuff that's been channeled from, you
• 1:09:44
  know, from
• 1:09:46
  you know, extraterrestrials. And what's
• 1:09:48
  the message?
• 1:09:49
  "You humans are just too violent. You
• 1:09:52
  you just have not grown up enough.
• 1:09:54
  You're you
• 1:09:56
  are always turning at each other. You're
• 1:09:58
  fighting, you're squabbling. You just
• 1:09:59
  can't seem to get along. And until you
• 1:10:02
  grow up, you can't get into the
• 1:10:04
  galactical circle, which requires you to
• 1:10:07
  be much more grown up." It's the same
• 1:10:09
  message the LCS says. The galactical
• 1:10:11
  circle was just thrown in, you know, as
• 1:10:13
  a prop for part of the ET thing. So,
• 1:10:16
  it's the same message. Your violence,
• 1:10:19
  you know, you you got high you know,
• 1:10:21
  high entropy. They don't say that, but
• 1:10:23
  you're fighting, you're fussing. It's
• 1:10:24
  all about control, power, force. And
• 1:10:26
  what you really need to do is grow up
• 1:10:28
  and grow out of that. So, I see the same
• 1:10:30
  message from the LCSs I see basically
• 1:10:34
  being collected from the from the ETs.
• 1:10:36
  And it's blasting people out of their
• 1:10:38
  mental rut to open their minds. And it's
• 1:10:42
  being fed
• 1:10:44
  right now because humanity has come to
• 1:10:48
  some very important decision points in
• 1:10:50
  the near future. And the people who are
• 1:10:53
  alive on the planet today will be the
• 1:10:55
  the making these decisions.
• 1:10:57
  So, there's
• 1:10:58
  the system is trying real hard to help
• 1:11:01
  us make
• 1:11:03
  the caring and loving and sharing
• 1:11:05
  decision rather than the
• 1:11:08
  de-evolving back into control, more
• 1:11:10
  control, power, and force. So, and the
• 1:11:13
  reason this has come now, you know, why
• 1:11:15
  now? Why us? Is because of our
• 1:11:18
  technology.
• 1:11:19
  The Buddha could climb up on a rock and
• 1:11:22
  if he spoke in a loud voice, maybe 100
• 1:11:24
  people could hear what he said.
• 1:11:26
  Well, now we have a megaphone that's
• 1:11:29
  huge. We have an internet and if
• 1:11:31
  somebody says something really amazing,
• 1:11:33
  a billion people
• 1:11:35
  will have it in 24 hours.
• 1:11:37
  So, that's a pretty big megaphone. You
• 1:11:39
  don't have to have the Buddha wandering
• 1:11:41
  around with 20 people, you know, for 30
• 1:11:44
  years.
• 1:11:45
  You can change very quickly now. You can
• 1:11:50
  also de-evolve very quickly now as well
• 1:11:53
  as evolve more quickly now. So, it makes
• 1:11:55
  everything run faster.
• 1:11:58
  So, we need to
• 1:12:00
  make some choices in the near future of
• 1:12:02
  which way we're going to go. Is it going
• 1:12:04
  to be toward love or is it going to be
• 1:12:06
  toward fear? And that is coming to this
• 1:12:08
  kind of knife-edge point with fear on
• 1:12:10
  one side, love on the other, and which
• 1:12:12
  way are we going to choose it?
• 1:12:15
  And if we go to fear, then we're going
• 1:12:16
  to de-evolve, but eventually we'll, you
• 1:12:19
  know, evolution just keeps chugging
• 1:12:21
  along. We'll eventually chug our way
• 1:12:22
  back up to where we are now.
• 1:12:24
  But,
• 1:12:25
  it would be so much better if we made
• 1:12:27
  the choice toward evolution and toward
• 1:12:31
  kindness and sharing. So, the system
• 1:12:34
  wants to give us the best probability.
• 1:12:37
  So, right now the ET thing is like
• 1:12:39
  booming.
• 1:12:41
  You know,
• 1:12:42
  business in at the ET level is just
• 1:12:44
  booming and people's minds are opening
• 1:12:46
  up and that's a good thing. But, also
• 1:12:48
  it's booming in other places, too. You
• 1:12:50
  know, it's booming in in uh
• 1:12:52
  you know, the side games that are going
• 1:12:53
  to come up at the end of August. You
• 1:12:55
  know, trying to show people that there's
• 1:12:56
  more to our reality than just what the
• 1:12:59
  physicists have told you about. Look at
• 1:13:01
  these people and the things that they
• 1:13:03
  can do. You know, it's by making it
• 1:13:05
  games, it makes it more interesting to
• 1:13:09
  people. Otherwise, they're not
• 1:13:10
  interested. And they come and see. Now
• 1:13:12
  they've seen it themselves. Then they
• 1:13:15
  take a course like we talked about, you
• 1:13:16
  know, that I offered. They can actually
• 1:13:18
  experience it themselves cuz everybody
• 1:13:20
  can do paranormal things. So you don't
• 1:13:22
  have to be special to do that. It's just
• 1:13:24
  developing your intuitive side.
• 1:13:26
  >> This This is a course that we'll talk
• 1:13:28
  more about at the end of of the
• 1:13:30
  interview, even though it's been
• 1:13:31
  pre-recorded.
• 1:13:33
  >> Yes. So anyway, there's there's a lot of
• 1:13:36
  pushing going on
• 1:13:37
  from from all sides
• 1:13:40
  to
• 1:13:41
  help people
• 1:13:43
  stand up and make the right choices at
• 1:13:45
  this
• 1:13:46
  time of
• 1:13:48
  where everything's condensed, you know,
• 1:13:49
  everything's jammed now because of the
• 1:13:52
  what they call internet time, right? We
• 1:13:55
  Everything moves faster. I mean, we've
• 1:13:57
  been Homo sapiens have been evolving
• 1:13:59
  here for 200,000 years. That's just a
• 1:14:01
  guess of archaeologists. And it's been
• 1:14:04
  If this is our our evolution, and that's
• 1:14:07
  de-evolution, and this is time, then
• 1:14:10
  it's been
• 1:14:11
  not growing much. And then we got a
• 1:14:13
  little bit here. We came maybe to cities
• 1:14:15
  and then a little bit here and a little
• 1:14:16
  bit here. But now we've gotten up to
• 1:14:18
  this part where everything happens
• 1:14:20
  really fast. And it's
• 1:14:23
  we have this opportunity to turn this
• 1:14:25
  curve and make great steps forward
• 1:14:27
  instead of tiny little steps forward. If
• 1:14:29
  you go back and look at the last five
• 1:14:31
  century five centuries, in every century
• 1:14:34
  from the five centuries ago to now,
• 1:14:36
  you'll see we've we've increased a
• 1:14:37
  little bit. We're more caring. We're
• 1:14:39
  more sharing. We're more helpful than we
• 1:14:41
  were. Life was really cheap five
• 1:14:43
  centuries ago. If you had power, you
• 1:14:45
  could kind of do anything you wanted to,
• 1:14:47
  to anybody you wanted to, and it just
• 1:14:49
  didn't matter. But, we're not there
• 1:14:51
  anymore. So, we have evolved, but
• 1:14:54
  they're little steps over centuries.
• 1:14:56
  Now, we have an opportunity to
• 1:15:00
  accelerate that growth, but at the same
• 1:15:02
  time, we have that
• 1:15:03
  that same that same, you know, force
• 1:15:07
  pushing us to fall off the other side.
• 1:15:10
  So, that's the nature of just where we
• 1:15:12
  happen to be today. And like I said,
• 1:15:14
  people alive today will make those
• 1:15:15
  choices. Will we evolve and go backwards
• 1:15:18
  toward fear, or will we go forwards? And
• 1:15:22
  the larger conscious system is pushing
• 1:15:24
  every button it can to try to help us
• 1:15:27
  grow up and make the right decision.
• 1:15:29
  That's why, you know, you see the
• 1:15:33
  you know, all the ET stuff just kind of
• 1:15:35
  blossoming in the last couple of of
• 1:15:37
  years. And there was a time back in the
• 1:15:40
  1800s when the paranormal things were
• 1:15:43
  blossoming, you know,
• 1:15:44
  >> matter of Bosque, yes.
• 1:15:46
  >> spiritualism
• 1:15:47
  >> spiritualism. And that was part of it,
• 1:15:49
  okay? Let's The system knows this is
• 1:15:51
  coming along. It's part of it. And then
• 1:15:53
  you had the the beginning of
• 1:15:54
  parapsychology, you know, make it make
• 1:15:57
  it in the university, cuz now it's it's
• 1:16:00
  acceptable. It's academic. And study
• 1:16:03
  that, but that was really hard getting
• 1:16:05
  traction in those fields because
• 1:16:09
  the materialists say, "It's impossible.
• 1:16:11
  Don't even have to look at it. Don't
• 1:16:13
  need to see the research. Don't need to
• 1:16:14
  do anything because I know it's
• 1:16:15
  impossible. Throw it out." And that's
• 1:16:18
  unfortunate, but we've been growing.
• 1:16:21
  We've been changing. Now, you look at
• 1:16:23
  all the physicists who are what we call
• 1:16:25
  a particle physicist, and they'll all
• 1:16:27
  tell you that reality is information.
• 1:16:30
  Because what they have learned is that
• 1:16:33
  if, you know, they bash atoms together
• 1:16:36
  into targets or into each other, and
• 1:16:38
  they see what pieces fall out. And what
• 1:16:40
  they've dis- they've learned is that if
• 1:16:43
  they model these particles as little
• 1:16:46
  chunks of mass, let's say with charge
• 1:16:48
  like an electron, they can't get the
• 1:16:50
  right answer. They cannot compute what
• 1:16:51
  comes out cuz it's just wrong. That's
• 1:16:54
  not the way reality works. It isn't
• 1:16:56
  mass.
• 1:16:57
  It's not a mass-based. It's a
• 1:16:58
  probability-based reality.
• 1:17:00
  But, if they model those particles as a
• 1:17:02
  point with the attributes of mass and
• 1:17:05
  the attributes of charge, that's just
• 1:17:07
  information. That's the way you model an
• 1:17:10
  electron in a computer.
• 1:17:13
  In a computer simulation. So, they will
• 1:17:15
  say this is a computer sim- They won't
• 1:17:17
  say this is a computer simulation
• 1:17:19
  because they're afraid to say that, but
• 1:17:21
  they will say reality is
• 1:17:23
  information-based. Now, there's no way
• 1:17:25
  for reality to be information-based
• 1:17:27
  other than this is a virtual reality.
• 1:17:30
  >> Now, before we get too deep, I want to
• 1:17:34
  go back to what the viewer really wanted
• 1:17:37
  to ask cuz I haven't completed the
• 1:17:39
  >> All right.
• 1:17:40
  >> We're We're just at the very tip-top of
• 1:17:42
  a long list
• 1:17:43
  >> Okay.
• 1:17:43
  >> here.
• 1:17:45
  So, what what this viewer is trying to
• 1:17:47
  get at is since you have acknowledged
• 1:17:49
  you have had communication
• 1:17:52
  with
• 1:17:53
  non-human intelligence,
• 1:17:56
  the viewer and and you've just reported
• 1:17:58
  a lengthy discourse about some of the
• 1:18:01
  things you've learned in that context.
• 1:18:03
  >> Mhm.
• 1:18:04
  >> The viewer wants to know
• 1:18:07
  how much of this did you derive from
• 1:18:10
  your own model? How much of it was
• 1:18:12
  communicated to you directly from an
• 1:18:16
  alien being? How much of it was
• 1:18:18
  communicated to you from the larger
• 1:18:21
  consciousness system? And how much of it
• 1:18:24
  might be pure speculation on your part?
• 1:18:27
  >> Okay. Those are all good questions and
• 1:18:30
  they're not all mutually exclusive of
• 1:18:31
  each other. Some of them can be yes,
• 1:18:33
  this, this, and this.
• 1:18:34
  >> Yeah.
• 1:18:35
  >> Okay. An out-of-body is just you get a
• 1:18:38
  data stream. It's a single player game.
• 1:18:41
  That's all there is to it. Larger
• 1:18:42
  conscious system sends you a data stream
• 1:18:44
  that defines a reality.
• 1:18:46
  It's not here. It's somewhere else. It's
• 1:18:49
  non-physical. And then you do the same
• 1:18:52
  thing. You get the data, you interpret
• 1:18:54
  it, and that's your reality. Now,
• 1:18:57
  the larger consciousness system also
• 1:19:00
  does things like fear tests to assess
• 1:19:03
  just where you are cuz if it knows where
• 1:19:05
  you are, it knows better how to help you
• 1:19:07
  take the next step.
• 1:19:09
  So, I have had interactions with aliens.
• 1:19:12
  And when I say aliens, just think of
• 1:19:15
  this as a
• 1:19:16
  a single player game with a larger
• 1:19:18
  consciousness system. They're showing me
• 1:19:20
  aliens.
• 1:19:22
  And I've had
• 1:19:24
  probably 10 or 20 such experiences with
• 1:19:26
  aliens. Sometimes
• 1:19:29
  it's nice ahead of ahead of a fear test
• 1:19:31
  with aliens where I ended up in a, you
• 1:19:34
  know, what they call the the what is it?
• 1:19:36
  The alien abduction or some kind of
• 1:19:38
  thing. So, I ended up being out on this
• 1:19:39
  bed and there was things and stuff was
• 1:19:42
  going to cut and do whatever. Sort like
• 1:19:45
  a dissection, if you like, to find out
• 1:19:47
  how my body worked and so on. And it was
• 1:19:49
  a fear test. So, if you go ah and you
• 1:19:52
  scream and you fight and you have this
• 1:19:54
  big problem, then you fail the fear
• 1:19:56
  test.
• 1:19:56
  >> How do you know it was a fear test?
• 1:19:58
  >> I didn't know that until later. Much
• 1:20:00
  later. I didn't know it was a fear test.
• 1:20:03
  So, but you have these things I have
• 1:20:05
  made connections and I was
• 1:20:08
  you know, like in
• 1:20:09
  non-physical space and I get messages
• 1:20:13
  and I get connections. So, you run into
• 1:20:14
  beings there and you talk with them. So,
• 1:20:16
  that's kind of normal when you're in
• 1:20:18
  that space is that you run into other
• 1:20:19
  entities. And sometimes you run into
• 1:20:21
  entities and you converse with them and
• 1:20:23
  they'll tell you that they're in a
• 1:20:24
  spaceship.
• 1:20:26
  And would you like to come visit them?
• 1:20:28
  They can
• 1:20:30
  pull you in or if but you have to agree
• 1:20:32
  to it. So you say okay and there you
• 1:20:34
  are. Okay, now all of this is a data
• 1:20:37
  stream from the larger consciousness
• 1:20:39
  system. It's giving me opportunities to
• 1:20:42
  make choices so that I will grow. Now,
• 1:20:46
  depending on how that conversation goes,
• 1:20:49
  it could be very friendly, it could be
• 1:20:50
  threatening, it could be diabolical.
• 1:20:53
  I've been in all of those.
• 1:20:55
  Friendly, diabolical, threatening, all
• 1:20:57
  of those kinds of things. Then you have
• 1:20:59
  these experiences with extraterrestrials
• 1:21:02
  because that's what the system is giving
• 1:21:04
  you. These are extraterrestrials. You're
• 1:21:06
  in a spaceship and you look around sure
• 1:21:08
  enough looks like a spaceship. There's
• 1:21:09
  walls, there's people, there's
• 1:21:11
  doors, there's cabinets, there's strange
• 1:21:12
  looking people, you know, and you have
• 1:21:15
  these experiences.
• 1:21:17
  Single player game, larger conscious
• 1:21:19
  system giving me data that I interpret
• 1:21:24
  and have to react to, interact with. And
• 1:21:28
  by that I'm evolving or devolving
• 1:21:31
  by how I interact with that. So if I
• 1:21:34
  interact with fear, well then I'm
• 1:21:36
  devolving because that's the way down.
• 1:21:39
  If I interact with caring or just with
• 1:21:42
  being careful or whatever, then maybe
• 1:21:44
  it's neutral or maybe I get some points
• 1:21:48
  for But that's the thing. So yes, I've
• 1:21:50
  done that. I've been in the on the table
• 1:21:53
  with very threatening looking things
• 1:21:56
  aimed at me and whatever and even
• 1:21:58
  starting to do stuff. And in in that
• 1:22:01
  particular time, I just let it happen.
• 1:22:04
  Figured there's nothing here that I can
• 1:22:05
  control, so just let it happen. And I
• 1:22:08
  was calm and I was relaxed and they did
• 1:22:10
  whatever they did and then
• 1:22:11
  goes away.
• 1:22:13
  Cuz I passed that test, so now it's
• 1:22:16
  over.
• 1:22:16
  >> Wait, wait, wait, goes away?
• 1:22:18
  >> The whole thing goes away. You're not on
• 1:22:19
  the table anymore.
• 1:22:20
  >> Uh-huh.
• 1:22:21
  >> Suddenly you're back in Kansas.
• 1:22:22
  >> Yeah.
• 1:22:23
  >> You know, and the because
• 1:22:26
  test over.
• 1:22:27
  So then it goes away and sometimes
• 1:22:29
  >> physical ramifications.
• 1:22:31
  >> physical ramifications. You're just
• 1:22:33
  getting a data stream to your mind.
• 1:22:35
  That's all. You're getting a data
• 1:22:36
  stream. Sometimes it doesn't end like
• 1:22:39
  it. Sometimes they land and you get off
• 1:22:42
  and you walk down the the stairs down to
• 1:22:45
  the ground and now you have an
• 1:22:47
  opportunity. You can go hide someplace
• 1:22:49
  if you don't want to get back on or you
• 1:22:51
  can get back on or you can
• 1:22:54
  you can talk to them and tell them that
• 1:22:55
  I don't really want to go on. I'd like
• 1:22:57
  to you know, can you drop me off
• 1:22:58
  someplace or you can have this
• 1:23:00
  discussion and these are choices you
• 1:23:02
  have and you evolve or de-evolve
• 1:23:04
  according to these choices. So this
• 1:23:07
  virtual
• 1:23:08
  this virtual reality allows all kinds of
• 1:23:11
  things to happen because it's just a
• 1:23:12
  data stream and you're given a lot of
• 1:23:17
  interesting dramatic choices
• 1:23:20
  that you couldn't have here. You know,
• 1:23:22
  you're not going to have that walking
• 1:23:24
  around in with this rule set in this
• 1:23:26
  place. So you have them there.
• 1:23:29
  >> Well, occasionally people do report
• 1:23:32
  things that seem to happen here like
• 1:23:35
  changes to their body that that occur
• 1:23:38
  after the experience of some sort of a
• 1:23:41
  surgical procedure on a spaceship.
• 1:23:44
  >> Yes, I've heard those kinds of things
• 1:23:45
  too and none of that surprises me. You
• 1:23:49
  know,
• 1:23:49
  the tests couldn't can continue on even
• 1:23:53
  after you're here. You know, if it's
• 1:23:55
  real, it's part of it's part of
• 1:23:58
  what's going on. How do you deal with
• 1:23:59
  that? You know, what do you what do you
• 1:24:01
  do? So these are situations
• 1:24:05
  in which you have very meaningful
• 1:24:08
  choices
• 1:24:09
  and you get to make these choices and by
• 1:24:11
  your choices you evolve or de-evolve and
• 1:24:14
  they're generally picked for people
• 1:24:17
  who have a good probability of evolving
• 1:24:21
  from them. The system doesn't give you
• 1:24:23
  something so hard that you're likely to
• 1:24:25
  fail, but it's got to be challenging. If
• 1:24:27
  it's too easy, you don't learn much. So,
• 1:24:30
  they have to pick something and then of
• 1:24:31
  course sometimes they're wrong or
• 1:24:32
  sometimes the people freak out and act
• 1:24:35
  very badly.
• 1:24:36
  Um
• 1:24:37
  whatever. Some but
• 1:24:40
  those those things happen and the ET
• 1:24:43
  connection is just part of the
• 1:24:47
  library of things that you can do and
• 1:24:51
  that you can experience. You can also go
• 1:24:52
  to other worlds. You can go to other
• 1:24:55
  places, other reality frames that you
• 1:24:58
  can talk to people in the non-physical.
• 1:25:01
  There's lots of things you can do, but
• 1:25:03
  all of it is a single player game with
• 1:25:05
  the larger consciousness system.
• 1:25:07
  >> Now, what do you mean by single player
• 1:25:09
  game?
• 1:25:09
  >> Well, this reality that we live in
• 1:25:12
  called the the physical universe and all
• 1:25:14
  the humans that are here, that's a
• 1:25:15
  multiplayer game. Multiplayer games are
• 1:25:18
  interactive. So, if I I do this, that
• 1:25:21
  affects others that are also in the
• 1:25:23
  game.
• 1:25:24
  But a single player game is just one
• 1:25:26
  person in the game.
• 1:25:28
  You know, in the in the the video games
• 1:25:30
  they often that's a you know, video
• 1:25:32
  games are often violent and they'll call
• 1:25:33
  that a first-person shooter or
• 1:25:35
  something. You're the only one in the
• 1:25:37
  game.
• 1:25:38
  And it's you against whatever else the
• 1:25:40
  computer puts out there. Single player
• 1:25:42
  game. Now, I have been out of body with
• 1:25:45
  other with another person. I think we
• 1:25:47
  talked about Dennis and I went out of
• 1:25:48
  body once and stayed together and had
• 1:25:51
  had adventures together and we were in
• 1:25:53
  isolated rooms and so on. And yeah,
• 1:25:56
  okay, [clears throat] that was a
• 1:25:57
  that was a double. It was a two player
• 1:25:58
  game.
• 1:25:59
  Well, you can get some of those, too.
• 1:26:01
  There's two and three and five player
• 1:26:02
  games that you can buy.
• 1:26:04
  It can make whatever it is that it
• 1:26:06
  thinks is most appropriate for you to
• 1:26:08
  grow up and challenge you in a way that
• 1:26:10
  you need to be challenged.
• 1:26:12
  >> Well, is everything always a game of one
• 1:26:14
  sort or another?
• 1:26:15
  >> It's all virtual. When I say game,
• 1:26:17
  that's just another
• 1:26:19
  you know, word for virtual reality. Cuz
• 1:26:22
  people think of virtual reality as a
• 1:26:24
  game, but it
• 1:26:26
  >> But what you're saying is that
• 1:26:27
  everything that we experience through
• 1:26:30
  our senses or through our imagination,
• 1:26:33
  through our consciousness, all of it is
• 1:26:36
  part of the virtual reality. All of it
• 1:26:39
  is a data stream coming from the larger
• 1:26:42
  consciousness system, without exception.
• 1:26:45
  >> Yeah, without exception. Consciousness
• 1:26:47
  is fundamental. Everything else is a
• 1:26:49
  derivative of consciousness. So, you
• 1:26:51
  start with that idea. And I got to the
• 1:26:54
  idea that consciousness was fundamental
• 1:26:56
  because in all the things I did and the
• 1:26:58
  paranormal things I learned to do,
• 1:27:01
  I learned that the arrow of causality
• 1:27:04
  always going from consciousness to the
• 1:27:06
  physical, never the other way. That
• 1:27:08
  makes consciousness more fundamental.
• 1:27:11
  And and it makes conscious prior to the
• 1:27:14
  physical, more fundamental. So, that
• 1:27:18
  idea is really if I wanted to say, "What
• 1:27:20
  is your model in you know, a few words?"
• 1:27:22
  I'd say it the model is that
• 1:27:25
  consciousness is fundamental. That's
• 1:27:27
  basically the model. And once you say
• 1:27:29
  that,
• 1:27:31
  logic requires you from there to say,
• 1:27:34
  "This is a virtual reality." Because if
• 1:27:36
  consciousness is fundamental, the only
• 1:27:39
  way you get this is through information.
• 1:27:42
  Consciousness is an information system.
• 1:27:44
  So, if consciousness is fundamental,
• 1:27:47
  then this has to be a virtual reality.
• 1:27:49
  That's just a
• 1:27:50
  you know, that's taking a big step.
• 1:27:51
  There's four five steps in that logical
• 1:27:53
  process, but one of them leads
• 1:27:56
  irrevocably to this conclusion that this
• 1:27:59
  is a virtual reality. And then
• 1:28:02
  it's trying to help the players evolve.
• 1:28:05
  So, you have these situations. You have
• 1:28:08
  synchronicities.
• 1:28:09
  You have crop circles that show up
• 1:28:12
  overnight one day and 20 acres of land
• 1:28:15
  has very precise mathematical curves on
• 1:28:17
  it. They would take 100 surveyors 2
• 1:28:20
  weeks
• 1:28:21
  or more if they could do it at all
• 1:28:23
  because they don't do curves very well.
• 1:28:25
  They're really good at straight lines,
• 1:28:26
  but they don't do curves. And walking
• 1:28:28
  around if you had 100 surveyors in the
• 1:28:30
  field, it'd be hard for them not to step
• 1:28:31
  anywhere, you know?
• 1:28:33
  So, when So, you look at it and you say,
• 1:28:35
  "Well, obviously, it's not done here.
• 1:28:38
  It's done elsewhere." And of course,
• 1:28:39
  people say, "Oh, it's aliens." But it's
• 1:28:41
  the larger consciousness system trying
• 1:28:43
  to open our mind and say, "Look, guys,
• 1:28:45
  reality is a lot different than you
• 1:28:48
  thought. See these things that you can't
• 1:28:49
  explain? Open your mind. Think bigger
• 1:28:52
  thoughts. And that's been going on since
• 1:28:55
  Madame Blavatsky and and all the rest of
• 1:28:57
  that crowd and you know, what a Rhine
• 1:29:00
  Institute and all of that's been part of
• 1:29:03
  this growing thing to get us to where we
• 1:29:05
  are now, which is this big decision
• 1:29:08
  that's going to happen in the next what?
• 1:29:12
  Decade?
• 1:29:13
  >> So, to answer the question from this
• 1:29:16
  viewer, it would seem that your model is
• 1:29:19
  so comprehensive
• 1:29:21
  that you can derive this idea from the
• 1:29:25
  model and whether you get
• 1:29:27
  something comparable or even something
• 1:29:29
  contradictory from an alien or from
• 1:29:34
  a
• 1:29:35
  speculation of your part, it doesn't
• 1:29:37
  much matter. The model seems to take
• 1:29:40
  precedence.
• 1:29:41
  >> Yes. Well, when I say it doesn't much
• 1:29:43
  matter where it comes from, that's true.
• 1:29:46
  And that's because the question, is it
• 1:29:49
  real?
• 1:29:50
  >> Yeah.
• 1:29:51
  >> Did you imagine it? Is it real? Right?
• 1:29:53
  That's always the question.
• 1:29:54
  >> That's sort of the underlying
• 1:29:56
  >> Yeah. That's the question. Well,
• 1:29:58
  the thing is,
• 1:29:59
  it's the wrong question.
• 1:30:00
  >> Mhm.
• 1:30:01
  >> There's nothing more real than
• 1:30:02
  information.
• 1:30:03
  >> Yeah.
• 1:30:04
  >> From my mind, information is as real as
• 1:30:05
  it gets. Everything is information.
• 1:30:08
  >> What do you equate information with
• 1:30:10
  consciousness? I don't think so.
• 1:30:11
  >> Well, consciousness system
• 1:30:13
  is an information system.
• 1:30:15
  >> Right.
• 1:30:15
  >> So, what we get this data stream and
• 1:30:18
  that's real for us. Just like if we're
• 1:30:20
  playing World of Warcraft, where our elf
• 1:30:22
  runs around and the things he
• 1:30:24
  you know the the bosses he has to battle
• 1:30:27
  and so on, they they seem to be real
• 1:30:29
  within that context. So, it's the wrong
• 1:30:31
  question, is it real? The the real
• 1:30:34
  question is cuz it's irrelevant. It
• 1:30:36
  doesn't really matter where it comes
• 1:30:38
  from. The real question is
• 1:30:41
  was it useful? Did you learn anything?
• 1:30:44
  Did you grow up any? Did you Did some
• 1:30:47
  something click in the understanding
• 1:30:49
  that you didn't have before? That is
• 1:30:52
  what's important.
• 1:30:53
  And you know, you the things you get in
• 1:30:56
  your to your mind, okay, this is larger
• 1:30:58
  conscious system comes to you as
• 1:31:00
  consciousness. There's only three paths
• 1:31:02
  that that can travel. One, larger
• 1:31:04
  conscious system can send you data. Some
• 1:31:07
  other consciousness can send you
• 1:31:09
  information because all consciousness is
• 1:31:11
  netted. And you can make
• 1:31:14
  stories up yourself because you're
• 1:31:15
  consciousness and you can create
• 1:31:17
  information.
• 1:31:19
  These three streams don't have tags on
• 1:31:22
  them. This is this is from the LCS and
• 1:31:24
  this is from you.
• 1:31:26
  >> LCS being larger conscious
• 1:31:28
  >> system. They don't come with tags on
• 1:31:30
  them. So, you never are entirely sure.
• 1:31:33
  So, that's another part of his question
• 1:31:35
  is going to be, well, how do you know?
• 1:31:37
  Well, you never know for sure. But,
• 1:31:42
  with experience,
• 1:31:44
  they're very different sources. It's
• 1:31:46
  like if you talk to
• 1:31:48
  your Aunt Susie who was into flowers and
• 1:31:50
  gardening and then your your Uncle
• 1:31:52
  George was into sports
• 1:31:55
  and you they both talk to you but
• 1:31:57
  through some kind of voice synthesizer
• 1:31:59
  so the voices sound exactly the same. It
• 1:32:01
  wouldn't take you very long talking to
• 1:32:03
  each one of them to decide which one was
• 1:32:04
  Susan and which one was George, right?
• 1:32:06
  You could figure that out very quickly.
• 1:32:08
  Well, it's like that. With experience,
• 1:32:11
  you can separate them pretty well. But
• 1:32:14
  do you ever know for sure 100%?
• 1:32:17
  No, you don't. The larger conscious
• 1:32:20
  system could pretend that it's, you
• 1:32:22
  know,
• 1:32:23
  another consciousness. You don't know
• 1:32:25
  for sure and you never will. But
• 1:32:29
  you can't let that stop you from moving
• 1:32:32
  forward. You don't need certainty to
• 1:32:36
  take the next step.
• 1:32:37
  All you need is logic and you need to
• 1:32:40
  assess it, not is this real? That's kind
• 1:32:42
  of a meaningless question. The question
• 1:32:44
  is, what did you learn? Is this
• 1:32:46
  valuable? What did it How did you grow?
• 1:32:50
  How are you different now for having had
• 1:32:51
  that experience? So, you have to think
• 1:32:55
  about those things. So, yeah, I took my
• 1:32:56
  trip with the aliens and I had one thing
• 1:32:58
  with the aliens where I did visit them
• 1:33:00
  in their ship one or two times, but then
• 1:33:02
  I started getting a vibe from them that
• 1:33:04
  was kind of disturbing, but I didn't
• 1:33:06
  know really why it was disturbing. It's
• 1:33:09
  just like I don't trust them.
• 1:33:11
  And I had that and my choice was to stop
• 1:33:15
  interacting with them.
• 1:33:16
  So, I did. I stopped interacting with
• 1:33:18
  them. And occasionally they'd kind of
• 1:33:20
  knock on my door and I would ignore it
• 1:33:23
  because that was my choice. Now, whether
• 1:33:25
  that was a good choice or a bad choice,
• 1:33:27
  I don't know.
• 1:33:28
  But it really doesn't matter. It's what
• 1:33:30
  did I learn? Did I Well, I learned that
• 1:33:33
  just don't go willy-nilly along with
• 1:33:35
  anything just because it seems oh, we're
• 1:33:37
  aliens, we're good guys, we're coming to
• 1:33:38
  help you out. Just because you get all
• 1:33:40
  that doesn't necessarily mean that
• 1:33:42
  that's the way it is. So, when I started
• 1:33:43
  getting this negative vibe, I paid
• 1:33:46
  attention to it. First, I tested it a
• 1:33:48
  little bit and I said, "Where's this
• 1:33:50
  coming from? Why is something bothering
• 1:33:52
  me? Am I making this up? Is it coming
• 1:33:55
  from them? Are they picking up on their
• 1:33:58
  negativity? Is the a
• 1:33:59
  I don't know. But I analyze that the
• 1:34:02
  best I can. I come to a choice. And then
• 1:34:05
  I see how that choice worked out. And I
• 1:34:08
  think that the ignoring them from that
• 1:34:10
  point on was the right choice. Because
• 1:34:12
  after I did that for a while, it went
• 1:34:14
  away.
• 1:34:16
  Otherwise, things don't go away. They
• 1:34:17
  just change. You'll get the same lesson
• 1:34:21
  and the same choices but a different
• 1:34:24
  context. And you just keep doing things
• 1:34:27
  until you figure out what the right
• 1:34:28
  answer is. So yes, all those things. So
• 1:34:31
  it just happens. It's a single player
• 1:34:33
  game. Most out of bodies are single
• 1:34:35
  player game. Dennis and I did a
• 1:34:37
  two-player game where we interacted
• 1:34:39
  together. And I suspect you could do
• 1:34:41
  others.
• 1:34:42
  >> But I've done it in groups.
• 1:34:43
  >> Yeah. Yeah, but the larger consciousness
• 1:34:45
  has to serve that up. It has to serve
• 1:34:47
  you
• 1:34:48
  say a 10-player game.
• 1:34:50
  Okay. Well, it can do that if it thinks
• 1:34:52
  this is going to be a good learning
• 1:34:54
  thing. If it thinks no, this is going to
• 1:34:56
  make a lot of people fearful,
• 1:34:58
  then it won't do it. And it won't work.
• 1:35:01
  And you'll try and you'll try, but it
• 1:35:02
  just it'll never pull together because
• 1:35:04
  the system won't support it because it's
• 1:35:05
  concluded that it's going to do more
• 1:35:07
  harm than good.
• 1:35:09
  >> But it's understandable that for a
• 1:35:10
  person who has had such an experience,
• 1:35:14
  it might occur out of the body. It might
• 1:35:16
  be in a dream. It might be in in their
• 1:35:19
  backyard.
• 1:35:20
  >> Right.
• 1:35:21
  >> I've I've talked to people who have had
• 1:35:22
  all all of that.
• 1:35:24
  >> Right.
• 1:35:24
  >> Uh
• 1:35:24
  >> [snorts]
• 1:35:25
  >> people are going to wonder, was that
• 1:35:27
  real or not?
• 1:35:28
  >> Right. Wrong question. Yeah, is that
• 1:35:30
  real? It's information.
• 1:35:33
  That's as real as it gets. There isn't
• 1:35:35
  anything more real than information. So
• 1:35:38
  yes, you're sitting out on your back
• 1:35:40
  porch and you know, having a barbecue
• 1:35:42
  and an alien ship comes and lands in
• 1:35:44
  your yard and it makes big indentations
• 1:35:46
  in your in your lawn and now that grass
• 1:35:48
  wherever it touched down is was hot and
• 1:35:51
  you get big burn spots there, and aliens
• 1:35:54
  get out and come eat barbecue with you
• 1:35:56
  or something. Whatever it Whatever it
• 1:35:58
  is, it takes place, and then the alien
• 1:36:01
  ship goes away, and you're left with the
• 1:36:03
  divots and and the burn spots.
• 1:36:05
  >> Mhm.
• 1:36:05
  >> And you take pictures of them in
• 1:36:07
  cameras, and you do all that kind of
• 1:36:08
  stuff. Or you even take pictures of the
• 1:36:10
  aliens themselves, perhaps. But,
• 1:36:13
  that's just an experience. That's the
• 1:36:15
  data stream that you got. That was
• 1:36:18
  intended to
• 1:36:21
  kick you out of your mental rut, to help
• 1:36:23
  you get out of the box that you've been
• 1:36:25
  trapped in most of your life in a
• 1:36:27
  material reality that is so buttoned
• 1:36:31
  down and nothing that unusual happens.
• 1:36:34
  Open your mind. Think bigger thoughts.
• 1:36:36
  So, those will happen. And yes, there's
• 1:36:37
  divots in the grass, and you take
• 1:36:39
  pictures of them all, and you show
• 1:36:40
  pictures. And everybody out there who
• 1:36:42
  hasn't had that experience said, "Yeah,
• 1:36:44
  it probably took him a long time with a
• 1:36:45
  blowtorch to burn that grass." They
• 1:36:47
  won't believe you. They think you make
• 1:36:49
  it up. You made the divots. You You
• 1:36:52
  know, the whole thing's a hoax, and they
• 1:36:53
  throw it away and ignore it because they
• 1:36:57
  know there's probably not real. That's
• 1:36:59
  the reaction that you'll get. So,
• 1:37:01
  even though that's proof for you, cuz it
• 1:37:04
  happened to you, it's not proof for
• 1:37:06
  anybody else because if it didn't happen
• 1:37:08
  to them,
• 1:37:10
  you know, if it's not your experience,
• 1:37:12
  it's not your truth.
• 1:37:13
  And that is just the way it works.
• 1:37:16
  >> Well, it's changing, though. We're in an
• 1:37:18
  an environment now where you you will
• 1:37:21
  find a community of people who will
• 1:37:23
  support you.
• 1:37:24
  >> Yes, that's true. And we're doing a lot
• 1:37:26
  better with that.
• 1:37:27
  >> You were recently at the Contact in the
• 1:37:30
  Desert with 5,000 people, and I had some
• 1:37:35
  visitors who explained to me that half
• 1:37:37
  the people there believe they had past
• 1:37:40
  lives on other planets.
• 1:37:42
  >> Yeah.
• 1:37:43
  That's probably true. But, most of the
• 1:37:45
  people there
• 1:37:47
  were I that I bumped into and talked to
• 1:37:50
  were thinking rational people who had
• 1:37:54
  personal experiences most of them that
• 1:37:57
  led them to believe that reality like we
• 1:38:00
  think it is is not the way it is whether
• 1:38:02
  that was aliens or something else.
• 1:38:04
  And they were seekers. They were trying
• 1:38:07
  to find out what does this mean, you
• 1:38:10
  know, what's going on and sometimes they
• 1:38:11
  make up stories because
• 1:38:14
  this is the way humans are. Something
• 1:38:16
  happens that you don't understand you
• 1:38:19
  try hard to make up a story that
• 1:38:21
  explains it. And you do your best, you
• 1:38:24
  take your time and you make up the story
• 1:38:26
  and when you first make it up you
• 1:38:27
  realize you just made that story up but
• 1:38:29
  that's your best explanation.
• 1:38:32
  A month later that's not a story, that's
• 1:38:35
  the facts.
• 1:38:36
  That's what happened. The story
• 1:38:39
  which was your best guess turns into a
• 1:38:42
  fact. And that's just the way people
• 1:38:45
  are. So we have lots of stories but the
• 1:38:48
  stories
• 1:38:49
  to me when somebody tells me a story
• 1:38:51
  like that
• 1:38:52
  it's not to me as was that real or was
• 1:38:54
  it that not real. It's I assume that
• 1:38:58
  they're telling the truth. That's that's
• 1:39:00
  what they experienced.
• 1:39:02
  They experienced that because
• 1:39:04
  it's in their data stream. They can
• 1:39:06
  experience anything. So I believe them
• 1:39:08
  that they had that experience. Now
• 1:39:10
  exactly what it meant and was it little
• 1:39:12
  green people who were from Saturn or was
• 1:39:15
  it just little green people that were in
• 1:39:16
  the data stream you know, just trying to
• 1:39:18
  help wake them up. I don't go there.
• 1:39:20
  Doesn't matter. It's what did you learn
• 1:39:22
  from that? What do you walk away with
• 1:39:24
  from having had that experience? What do
• 1:39:26
  I walk away with when talking to
• 1:39:28
  somebody who had that experience? Well,
• 1:39:30
  I walk away with an understanding that
• 1:39:32
  jeez, there's thousands of people here
• 1:39:34
  who've had experiences like that. This
• 1:39:35
  is a very common thing. So I get some
• 1:39:38
  understanding about what's going on out
• 1:39:40
  there in the world and how common it is,
• 1:39:42
  they get something else from their
• 1:39:44
  experience. And it's what do you learn
• 1:39:47
  and how important is what you learn.
• 1:39:49
  What can you do with it? How can you use
• 1:39:52
  that information?
• 1:39:54
  So, that's
• 1:39:56
  Yes, so the things he said, was it this
• 1:39:58
  way or that way or there this kind of
• 1:39:59
  all of that.
• 1:40:01
  >> [laughter]
• 1:40:01
  >> It's kind of all of that. And you never
• 1:40:03
  know for sure. No, how do you know for
• 1:40:05
  sure that's true? You don't. Because you
• 1:40:08
  don't know which one of the three are
• 1:40:10
  often it's a combination of all three.
• 1:40:12
  You get something from the LCS, you make
• 1:40:14
  stuff up to to add to that and and maybe
• 1:40:19
  somebody else is, you know, involved in
• 1:40:21
  it as well. It could be any kind of a
• 1:40:23
  mixture of those three or it could be
• 1:40:25
  either one of those three purely. You
• 1:40:27
  don't know for sure, but with time
• 1:40:30
  you can tell the LCS from somebody else
• 1:40:33
  or from yourself because they have just
• 1:40:35
  very different characteristics of the
• 1:40:37
  way the way they function, the way they
• 1:40:40
  sound, the things they do. And you can
• 1:40:42
  you can separate them fairly easily with
• 1:40:45
  experience, but it's never are you 100%
• 1:40:49
  sure of anything, which is why I tell
• 1:40:52
  people
• 1:40:54
  you have to be skeptical of everything
• 1:40:57
  because you have to live gracefully with
• 1:41:00
  uncertainty.
• 1:41:01
  >> And this would apply, I think, across
• 1:41:04
  the board to anything related to the
• 1:41:06
  paranormal and probably lots of things
• 1:41:08
  that we would call normal. I mean,
• 1:41:11
  reincarnation, spirit guides.
• 1:41:14
  >> Sure, all of that.
• 1:41:15
  >> Mhm.
• 1:41:15
  >> Absolutely. It's the same thing. If a
• 1:41:18
  spirit guide is going to help you grow
• 1:41:20
  up, well, all you have to do is ask for
• 1:41:22
  one and there it is.
• 1:41:24
  You know, it's it's something, but if
• 1:41:25
  it's not, if you're just playing games
• 1:41:27
  and you want to
• 1:41:29
  you know, see how smart your spirit
• 1:41:30
  guide is or something like that, you're
• 1:41:32
  not really serious about growing up,
• 1:41:34
  then you probably can't get anybody to
• 1:41:35
  play with you. You just
• 1:41:38
  doesn't work for you. You don't get one.
• 1:41:41
  But if you if you really can use one,
• 1:41:44
  then you will get one. Or two. Or three.
• 1:41:47
  It doesn't have to be one and you will
• 1:41:49
  dress them up. You'll make them male and
• 1:41:51
  female. You do all the kind of things
• 1:41:52
  that we do to make it fit our
• 1:41:56
  experience. And then you'll your story
• 1:41:59
  will grow from there.
• 1:42:01
  >> Well,
• 1:42:02
  Tom, in conclusion, are there some final
• 1:42:05
  thoughts you'd like to share?
• 1:42:07
  >> So, we're up to conclusion time already,
• 1:42:09
  I see.
• 1:42:10
  >> We've been going for a while.
• 1:42:12
  >> Yeah. Okay.
• 1:42:14
  Um
• 1:42:16
  >> [sighs]
• 1:42:17
  >> Well,
• 1:42:18
  thoughts to share would be
• 1:42:21
  you know, people think, well, it's a
• 1:42:23
  virtual reality then it doesn't really
• 1:42:24
  count. You know, like they do that when
• 1:42:26
  they play these video games where they
• 1:42:29
  run over people and do horrible things.
• 1:42:31
  You know, what is that? There's there's
• 1:42:32
  some
• 1:42:33
  some uh Anyway, some of them are very
• 1:42:36
  you know, they're very violent and so
• 1:42:37
  on.
• 1:42:38
  >> Yeah.
• 1:42:38
  >> So, it doesn't really matter cuz it's
• 1:42:39
  just a game. Well, that is not the case
• 1:42:42
  here.
• 1:42:43
  >> Mhm.
• 1:42:43
  >> This
• 1:42:44
  game matters more than anything else
• 1:42:47
  that you will ever do. This determines
• 1:42:50
  whether you evolve or de-evolve. Now,
• 1:42:52
  why is that important? Cuz if you
• 1:42:54
  evolve, your life will be full of joy
• 1:42:57
  and peace and happiness and everything
• 1:43:00
  you need, whether it's money or whether
• 1:43:03
  it's you know, a a person to have a
• 1:43:05
  relationship with, it'll show up just as
• 1:43:08
  you are ready for it.
• 1:43:11
  If you're ready for it, if you're ready
• 1:43:12
  to to grow in that way, then it'll show
• 1:43:14
  up. And your life will be very
• 1:43:16
  productive. You will understand things
• 1:43:20
  and
• 1:43:21
  your life will be good. And if on the
• 1:43:23
  other hand, if you de-evolve, you will
• 1:43:25
  constantly be
• 1:43:27
  in a
• 1:43:29
  in a struggle. You'll struggle with
• 1:43:31
  life. You just have this barrier and if
• 1:43:34
  you could get over that barrier, if you
• 1:43:35
  just got that promotion, you know,
• 1:43:37
  everything would be great. Well, whether
• 1:43:39
  you get it or not, everything won't be
• 1:43:40
  great. There's always another barrier
• 1:43:42
  and another barrier and okay, you got
• 1:43:44
  the promotion, but now you have trouble
• 1:43:45
  with your significant other and that's a
• 1:43:48
  problem and your life will be constant
• 1:43:50
  struggle and you eventually kind of
• 1:43:53
  think that, you know, what am I doing
• 1:43:54
  here and and uh
• 1:43:57
  life is is just not fun. It's hard. It's
• 1:44:01
  miserable. I'm unhappy. My life has been
• 1:44:04
  full of unhappiness.
• 1:44:06
  That's because you're making choices on
• 1:44:09
  the side of fear. That generates a very
• 1:44:11
  unhappy, miserable life and as long as
• 1:44:14
  you keep making those choices, your life
• 1:44:16
  will just keep getting more and more
• 1:44:18
  miserable as you grow.
• 1:44:20
  So,
• 1:44:21
  it matters a lot whether you evolve or
• 1:44:24
  de-evolve. If you evolve, then life is
• 1:44:27
  sweet. If you de-evolve, [clears throat]
• 1:44:29
  life is very hard and very difficult and
• 1:44:32
  punishing. So,
• 1:44:35
  you know, it's like your choice. Which
• 1:44:36
  one of those would you rather have? It
• 1:44:37
  seems rather obvious that taking the
• 1:44:40
  time and trouble to assess every choice
• 1:44:42
  you make,
• 1:44:44
  what's the low entropy choice here?
• 1:44:45
  What's the choice that will help the
• 1:44:48
  most people for the longest time? What
• 1:44:50
  do you do? And it's not big choices I'm
• 1:44:53
  talking about. It's little choices.
• 1:44:55
  Okay?
• 1:44:56
  It's your turn to do the dishes. You
• 1:44:58
  know, it's a choice.
• 1:45:00
  So, you say, "Okay, I'll do them." And
• 1:45:02
  you're happy to do them because you
• 1:45:04
  know, it's important. Somebody has to do
• 1:45:06
  them and it might as well be you. So,
• 1:45:08
  you do it cheerfully and you do a really
• 1:45:09
  good job of it. You even clean things
• 1:45:12
  off those dishes that have been there
• 1:45:13
  for, you know, for months that somebody
• 1:45:15
  else didn't actually clean that
• 1:45:16
  thoroughly. And you do a good job and
• 1:45:18
  you feel good about it. Or you could
• 1:45:20
  say, "Again? I have to do them again?
• 1:45:23
  Why me? I did them last week." And you
• 1:45:26
  can feel sorry for yourself, you can you
• 1:45:28
  can blame other people for abusing you,
• 1:45:31
  you can have a very negative attitude
• 1:45:33
  toward it. It's just a simple thing,
• 1:45:35
  doing the dishes. So, your life is full
• 1:45:37
  of choices that you get to make, and you
• 1:45:40
  get to make them on the side of love or
• 1:45:42
  the side of fear. Fear is, I'm being
• 1:45:45
  abused. I'd done more dishes than you
• 1:45:47
  have, so you should do them. I don't
• 1:45:49
  want to have to do more dishes than you
• 1:45:51
  do, you see? That's fear that somebody
• 1:45:53
  else might get something that you don't
• 1:45:55
  have or get away with something that you
• 1:45:57
  don't get away with.
• 1:45:59
  That's fear. So, you make those choices,
• 1:46:01
  they're self-centered, and uh they will
• 1:46:03
  lead you to a life that's very
• 1:46:06
  unpleasant for the most part. So, that's
• 1:46:09
  important. And every reality you're in,
• 1:46:12
  whether it's a dream reality, a daydream
• 1:46:14
  reality, a you know, a single-player
• 1:46:17
  game in a out-of-body or a
• 1:46:19
  multiple-player game here in this this
• 1:46:22
  this universe that is a virtual reality,
• 1:46:26
  it doesn't matter. Every place that you
• 1:46:28
  make choices is a place where you evolve
• 1:46:31
  and de-evolve. So, if you're thinking
• 1:46:33
  your dreams you can do all kinds of
• 1:46:35
  things that aren't nice,
• 1:46:38
  all of those are just the same as if you
• 1:46:40
  did them here as far as your evolution.
• 1:46:43
  In dreams, the neat thing is is that you
• 1:46:46
  actually act the way you are. Here, you
• 1:46:48
  act the way you think other people
• 1:46:51
  >> [clears throat]
• 1:46:51
  >> you know,
• 1:46:52
  the way you want other people to see
• 1:46:53
  you. But in dream reality, the real you
• 1:46:56
  comes out and is the actor. So, if you
• 1:46:59
  do things that aren't nice in dreams,
• 1:47:01
  that's because, you know, that not
• 1:47:03
  niceness is what's inside of you. And if
• 1:47:05
  you do things that are very nice and
• 1:47:07
  helpful in dreams, because that's inside
• 1:47:09
  of you. So, dreams become important to
• 1:47:12
  keep track of those and understand
• 1:47:14
  they'll show you a lot about your
• 1:47:15
  progress.
• 1:47:16
  So, anyway, what would I tell people? I
• 1:47:18
  tell people
• 1:47:20
  it's important.
• 1:47:22
  Always the most important thing you can
• 1:47:24
  do is make a low entropy choice.
• 1:47:28
  You don't have to always be right.
• 1:47:29
  People say, "Well, how do I know whether
• 1:47:31
  it's low entropy or not?" Well, you
• 1:47:33
  won't know for sure. Again, you don't
• 1:47:35
  know anything for sure. You have to live
• 1:47:38
  gracefully with uncertainty. You just
• 1:47:40
  make your best choice. Then you try to
• 1:47:43
  learn from it, and then you make your
• 1:47:45
  next best choice, and you try to learn
• 1:47:46
  from it. And that's how you evolve
• 1:47:50
  or devolve. If you don't learn from it,
• 1:47:53
  you get to do it again until you do
• 1:47:56
  learn from it. So, that's what life is
• 1:47:58
  all about.
• 1:48:00
  And if enough of us understand that,
• 1:48:02
  this world will turn into a very
• 1:48:05
  pleasant place to live. Everybody will
• 1:48:07
  be able to optimize their own personal
• 1:48:11
  needs, their personal things that they
• 1:48:14
  want to do. It's not this collective Oh,
• 1:48:17
  this collective thing is all this
• 1:48:18
  terrible because you have leaders that
• 1:48:21
  run up tell everybody else what to do.
• 1:48:23
  No, everybody is there because they want
• 1:48:25
  to help you.
• 1:48:27
  And if you say, "You know, I'm really
• 1:48:28
  tired of doing brain surgery. I'd like
• 1:48:30
  to write poetry." They will try to
• 1:48:32
  adjust things such that your position in
• 1:48:34
  the brain surgery is covered by somebody
• 1:48:36
  else, and your opportunity to write
• 1:48:38
  poetry will come to you. The the whole
• 1:48:41
  system will shift to give you. So, it's
• 1:48:43
  not that you have less personal freedom,
• 1:48:46
  you have more personal freedom in that
• 1:48:49
  sense. A lot of people get really
• 1:48:52
  scared by the collective. Oh, we're all
• 1:48:54
  being nice together. Oh, that always
• 1:48:56
  turns out to be, you know, somebody gets
• 1:48:58
  to be in charge. But no, somebody's in
• 1:49:00
  charge telling everybody else what to
• 1:49:01
  do. That's high entropy. We're talking
• 1:49:04
  about a low entropy society where
• 1:49:06
  everybody tries to help everybody else
• 1:49:08
  optimize what they want to become and
• 1:49:11
  who they are and their choices. And
• 1:49:14
  other people are trying to optimize your
• 1:49:15
  choices.
• 1:49:17
  So, it's a very supportive system. So,
• 1:49:21
  it does matter.
• 1:49:22
  Everything matters. Every choice you
• 1:49:24
  make, even a simple choice as to whether
• 1:49:26
  or not you hang your, you know, your
• 1:49:28
  your clothes up at night or whether you
• 1:49:30
  throw them on the floor.
• 1:49:32
  Everything you do matters.
• 1:49:34
  So, be aware.
• 1:49:37
  Try to
• 1:49:38
  be better [clears throat] than you are.
• 1:49:40
  It's about growth. You don't have to be
• 1:49:42
  perfect. Making mistakes is is
• 1:49:45
  is actually good. It gives you an
• 1:49:47
  opportunity to grow.
• 1:49:49
  So,
• 1:49:50
  well, I shouldn't say it's actually good
• 1:49:52
  making mistakes, but you can learn from
• 1:49:53
  it. It doesn't have to be a bad thing.
• 1:49:56
  You can just learn from it. So, that's
• 1:49:58
  the important thing that I would
• 1:50:00
  leave people with. It's It's not about
• 1:50:03
  is that is that real? Nothing is more
• 1:50:06
  real than information. If you got that
• 1:50:09
  in a dream,
• 1:50:10
  that's real. If you got that in an
• 1:50:12
  out-of-body, that's real. If you saw
• 1:50:15
  that spaceship land in your yard or that
• 1:50:17
  you had a a radar that saw this thing go
• 1:50:20
  Mach 2 and then do a 90-degree turn and
• 1:50:22
  never slow down,
• 1:50:24
  that's real. People see those things.
• 1:50:27
  And they're meant to see those things.
• 1:50:28
  Those things are created for people to
• 1:50:30
  see to help crack open minds.
• 1:50:35
  You you have the people who have the
• 1:50:36
  near-death experiences. They're given
• 1:50:39
  those experiences so they'll write a
• 1:50:40
  book, particularly if they're very
• 1:50:42
  credible like a neurosurgeon.
• 1:50:44
  You know,
• 1:50:45
  you know, you write a book and now a
• 1:50:47
  million people
• 1:50:49
  have their minds cracked open a little
• 1:50:51
  bit because this neurosurgeon says,
• 1:50:54
  "The brain doesn't really do anything.
• 1:50:56
  You know, it happens outside the brain."
• 1:50:58
  Mhm.
• 1:50:59
  Okay, he's a neurosurgeon. He's not
• 1:51:00
  supposed to say things like that. You
• 1:51:02
  know, so it opens people's minds. So,
• 1:51:05
  that's why he got that near-death
• 1:51:07
  experience because it's part of
• 1:51:10
  us
• 1:51:11
  being nudged awake up. So, just do the
• 1:51:15
  best you can,
• 1:51:17
  learn from what you do,
• 1:51:19
  have a lot of fun.
• 1:51:21
  Fun is part of it. This is not a salt
• 1:51:23
  mine that you're plugging away in. You
• 1:51:25
  know, this thing about lowering entropy,
• 1:51:27
  if it's that, you're doing it wrong.
• 1:51:29
  You have to have fun. You have to enjoy
• 1:51:33
  it.
• 1:51:34
  Doing things for people and and seeing
• 1:51:36
  that it's helping them is what gives you
• 1:51:38
  that joy. That's what you feel good
• 1:51:40
  about. The fact that you
• 1:51:42
  you know,
• 1:51:44
  would you sneak cookies out of the jar
• 1:51:46
  isn't what's fun.
• 1:51:47
  It's helping people that's that's fun.
• 1:51:49
  And your life just should always be fun.
• 1:51:53
  You should not throw away your
• 1:51:56
  childhood.
• 1:51:57
  That five-year-old and that 10-year-old
• 1:51:59
  are still in there. And you should
• 1:52:01
  celebrate them sometimes. Sometimes just
• 1:52:04
  do silly things. Play.
• 1:52:06
  Enjoy.
• 1:52:08
  Have you know, be full of humor.
• 1:52:11
  That's important.
• 1:52:13
  If you get too serious, get yourself
• 1:52:14
  wrapped up in too much serious, you will
• 1:52:16
  probably end up chasing your tail in
• 1:52:19
  circles and not actually get anywhere.
• 1:52:21
  You're much better off just to be who
• 1:52:24
  you are.
• 1:52:25
  Be real.
• 1:52:26
  Be
• 1:52:28
  what's the word? Authentic.
• 1:52:30
  And see how that plays. If it doesn't
• 1:52:33
  play well, then change who you are.
• 1:52:37
  That's not necessarily easy, but it can
• 1:52:38
  be done with persistence.
• 1:52:41
  So,
• 1:52:42
  that's kind of life and the way it
• 1:52:44
  works. That's why you're here.
• 1:52:47
  So, that would be kind of the summary of
• 1:52:50
  it. All the details really don't matter
• 1:52:52
  so much, but if you understand that,
• 1:52:54
  then you'll do the right thing at the
• 1:52:56
  right time. And whether you understand
• 1:52:58
  the the logic behind it or the model or
• 1:53:01
  anything else is really not important.
• 1:53:05
  What's important is that you try your
• 1:53:08
  best to do the right thing at the right
• 1:53:09
  time in the right way.
• 1:53:12
  >> I'm speechless. That's
• 1:53:15
  so profound.
• 1:53:17
  Tom, thank you so much
• 1:53:21
  for visiting me here in Albuquerque
• 1:53:25
  and sharing your thoughts, your wisdom,
• 1:53:29
  your insights, and your knowledge with
• 1:53:31
  me
• 1:53:32
  and with the New Thinking Allowed
• 1:53:34
  audience. And since it's a joy and an
• 1:53:37
  honor to be with you.
• 1:53:39
  >> Well, thank you very much. I am uh
• 1:53:43
  glad to be here.
• 1:53:44
  The
• 1:53:45
  I'm hoping that some people will listen
• 1:53:48
  to this and say, "Oh, that makes sense."
• 1:53:50
  You know, and the more people that uh
• 1:53:53
  move toward becoming love and let go of
• 1:53:55
  control power force, the sooner it's
• 1:53:57
  going to be a nicer place for all of us.
• 1:54:00
  So, that's sort of my mission is to say
• 1:54:03
  that and what I bring to the table is
• 1:54:05
  basically a coherent story. Cuz you can
• 1:54:09
  tell a story about this kind of
• 1:54:11
  paranormal thing and then a story about
• 1:54:14
  that consciousness and quantum physics
• 1:54:16
  and you can still all these separate
• 1:54:18
  stories, but this is one coherent story
• 1:54:22
  that information is what is real, where
• 1:54:25
  your consciousness system is an
• 1:54:26
  information system. We're pieces of
• 1:54:28
  consciousness and we are
• 1:54:30
  here experiencing and making choices in
• 1:54:32
  a virtual reality. And if you get that,
• 1:54:35
  everything else is explained. It's
• 1:54:38
  perfectly coherent. So, this guy said,
• 1:54:40
  "How do you know? And how do you know
• 1:54:42
  that you're not making it up?" And all
• 1:54:43
  the rest of this. And there's very
• 1:54:44
  simple logical answers to all of that.
• 1:54:47
  Once you get the big picture. So, if
• 1:54:49
  there's anything about this theory that
• 1:54:51
  is significant and important, it's its
• 1:54:53
  coherence. It answers all the questions
• 1:54:56
  in a logical, straightforward way. And
• 1:55:01
  I haven't yet found anything that it
• 1:55:03
  doesn't
• 1:55:04
  answer in that straightforward logical
• 1:55:06
  way. So, I think that in the next
• 1:55:10
  several years, I hope, maybe within the
• 1:55:13
  next decade anyway, this idea will
• 1:55:16
  become the next big
• 1:55:19
  discovery, the next big, what do we call
• 1:55:21
  it? Um
• 1:55:23
  para- paradigm.
• 1:55:24
  >> Paradigm.
• 1:55:24
  >> The next big paradigm shift in physics,
• 1:55:28
  in science, that they will see that this
• 1:55:30
  is better physics. It describes all the
• 1:55:33
  things that
• 1:55:35
  they don't understand now without any
• 1:55:37
  new assumptions, without
• 1:55:39
  without any uh
• 1:55:41
  you know, logical problems. And once
• 1:55:44
  that happens, the physicists are the
• 1:55:47
  high priests now. They tell everybody
• 1:55:49
  else what to think. When they think that
• 1:55:51
  this is a good idea,
• 1:55:53
  the ball will start rolling downhill, or
• 1:55:55
  the snowball will start rolling
• 1:55:56
  downhill, gaining size and and momentum.
• 1:56:00
  And that's all it will take. After that,
• 1:56:03
  just give it another decade and this
• 1:56:06
  will be a very nice place. So, that's my
• 1:56:08
  goal is to help the physicists get to
• 1:56:10
  this new paradigm, which is
• 1:56:14
  logical
• 1:56:15
  and
• 1:56:18
  provides us a way to a kinder, gentler
• 1:56:21
  space
• 1:56:23
  to live in.
• 1:56:24
  >> Who could ask for anything more?
• 1:56:28
  >> Yes, it uh
• 1:56:30
  You know, so if my my purpose is to talk
• 1:56:32
  to people like you, and you will share
• 1:56:34
  this with other people, and some people
• 1:56:37
  will find value in it, and a lot of
• 1:56:39
  people will shrug and say,
• 1:56:41
  "Yeah, sounds crazy to me. Virtual
• 1:56:43
  reality?
• 1:56:44
  Nah, that stuff's hard. It's It's not
• 1:56:46
  virtual, but that's the way it is for
• 1:56:47
  any virtual reality. My barb- my
• 1:56:49
  barbarian does the same thing. He picks
• 1:56:51
  up rocks and throws them, and they break
• 1:56:52
  windows, you know, it's
• 1:56:54
  it uh Cuz, that physicality is just the
• 1:56:57
  nature of virtual reality.
• 1:56:59
  But, some people will take it and will
• 1:57:02
  grow with it. And that's all the payment
• 1:57:05
  I need for spending hours and hours and
• 1:57:08
  hours,
• 1:57:09
  you know, talking about it is that some
• 1:57:10
  people will pick it up and it will solve
• 1:57:13
  problems that they're having.
• 1:57:16
  That's the whole point and that's what
• 1:57:17
  why you do what you do.
• 1:57:18
  >> Exactly.
• 1:57:19
  >> You do that for the exact same reason
• 1:57:21
  they go to podcast and that's why they
• 1:57:23
  have this podcast is because they're
• 1:57:25
  trying to help people Yeah. learn and
• 1:57:27
  there's thousands, tens of thousands of
• 1:57:29
  us doing this and we can't get it done
• 1:57:33
  individually. We can only get it done if
• 1:57:36
  we all do our own part and you know, and
• 1:57:39
  and
• 1:57:40
  do our best to help people
• 1:57:42
  take a small step forward.
• 1:57:45
  So, I appreciate the opportunity to be
• 1:57:47
  part of your work
• 1:57:50
  and
• 1:57:51
  you know, that means a lot to me. It's
• 1:57:53
  one more opportunity to help people
• 1:57:55
  understand reality to a point that their
• 1:57:59
  life gets better.
• 1:58:00
  >> Well, you will be welcomed back over and
• 1:58:02
  over again. I'm happy to have as many
• 1:58:05
  conversations with you as we can fit in
• 1:58:09
  because I
• 1:58:10
  I would say
• 1:58:12
  99%
• 1:58:14
  in concurrence with with your point of
• 1:58:16
  view and I think it's it is coherent.
• 1:58:20
  It's very valuable.
• 1:58:23
  Not only intellectually valuable,
• 1:58:25
  valuable, but it's valuable at the
• 1:58:29
  level of the heart, at the level of the
• 1:58:31
  emotions, and at the level of action
• 1:58:34
  that people take and the choices in
• 1:58:37
  their lives and
• 1:58:39
  it's valuable for people sociologically
• 1:58:43
  and as as well. So, I'm happy to
• 1:58:46
  continue
• 1:58:48
  in a small way to be an evangelist for
• 1:58:50
  you. [laughter]
• 1:58:52
  >> Well, I thank you. That's That's
• 1:58:54
  wonderful because you have a very uh
• 1:58:55
  long and and uh
• 1:58:57
  deep reach and I appreciate being a part
• 1:59:00
  of that and you're allowing me to come
• 1:59:01
  here and and uh
• 1:59:04
  speak to you. Whether this is number
• 1:59:06
  nine or number 10, I guess we'll we'll
• 1:59:08
  find out later. But anyway, uh it's uh
• 1:59:12
  it's my
• 1:59:13
  privilege and pleasure to be here and
• 1:59:15
  I'll be willing to do this again and
• 1:59:17
  again.
• 1:59:18
  Unless it happens very soon, uh probably
• 1:59:20
  won't be here to sit in this room in
• 1:59:22
  your own studio, but we can do it over
• 1:59:25
  Zoom and and we it'll be
• 1:59:28
  about 90% you know, the same. It just
• 1:59:32
  won't the graphics won't be as good.
• 1:59:34
  It'll be a little less quality. And uh
• 1:59:37
  you know, the sound won't be as good and
• 1:59:39
  the pictures won't be as good, but uh
• 1:59:41
  they're good enough. You know, it's not
• 1:59:43
  about how good is your cinematography.
• 1:59:46
  It's It's
• 1:59:47
  the message that you deliver and Zoom
• 1:59:50
  can deliver the message just as just as
• 1:59:52
  well.
• 1:59:54
  >> Well, thank you once again, Tom.
• 1:59:56
  And for those of you watching or
• 1:59:59
  listening, thank you for being with us
• 2:00:03
  because you are the reason that we are
• 2:00:06
  here.
• 2:00:09
  >> [music]
• 2:00:16
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• 2:00:30
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