Latest / Identity at the Center / #313 - SailPoint Navigate 2024 - Identity Product Management with SailPoint’s Andrew Moore

Transcript

#313 - SailPoint Navigate 2024 - Identity Product Management with SailPoint’s Andrew Moore · Identity at the Center

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  I want bad news to be behind a megaphone, honestly, internally,
• 0:03
  and that's an old Bill Gates thing when he was seen as like a
• 0:05
  tyrant that he's like, I don't want to hear good news.
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  I want to hear bad news because it makes us better.
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  So I've got to have the types of systems and incentives and
• 0:13
  motivations to where that's not demoralizing, but it actually
• 0:16
  helps our team realize like, gosh, we're helping so many
• 0:19
  people and there's still a lot of low hanging fruit to really
• 0:21
  supercharge sale point all. Right, let me may put you on the
• 0:25
  spot here and I don't want you to name and shame anything, but
• 0:28
  what is the most critical or negative feedback that you've
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  seen does? That happen to be current job?
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  Or can it be prior? Sure, whichever 1 you want to go
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  with. But like, what's the what's the
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  like? That really cut me to the core
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  and that hurt me. OK, I'm going to give you 2.
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  This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with
• 0:58
  IAM. This is the go to podcast now
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  your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman.
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  Welcome to the Identity of the Center podcast.
• 1:14
  I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
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  Hey, Jeff, how are you? Not so bad yourself.
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  Good. Is it OK to break down the 4th
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  wall? We have we have walls in this
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  room, but feel free to keep getting down.
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  This thing, yeah, First off, if you're not watching it on
• 1:28
  YouTube, you have no idea what I'm talking about, but.
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  You're going to sound totally crazy here in a second.
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  It's called a dead. Cat it is, yeah.
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  And so the idea is as we take turns asking questions, so we
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  don't talk over each other, so we're going to pass the dead cat
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  back and forth. Right.
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  It's a very high tech way to do that.
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  Normally it's for muffling wind noise and stuff like that on
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  microphones, but there's no wind in the conference room.
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  No wind here. So yeah, you'll see that going
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  back and forth as a little Easter egg for people who are
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  watching on YouTube. We are at Sale Point, navigate
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  2024. We're here in Orlando.
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  Orlando, FL. Yeah.
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  So what do you think? I think it's great.
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  I mean, this Conference Center I think is fantastic.
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  I think we heard the conference won't be here next year.
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  So enjoy your time in Orlando, Jeff.
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  I know you only come here when you have to.
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  Yeah, I'm not a fan of the heat and humidity, so I'll be happy
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  to go somewhere else, but I think we're back in Austin.
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  Yeah, sure. Which is where it's been for the
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  last, Yeah. There's no humidity in Texas.
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  Yeah, Hey, look, I'm an indoor cat.
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  As long as there's air conditioning, you know, Wi-Fi,
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  I'm a happy person. That's all it takes for me.
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  Absolutely. So definitely thanks to Sail
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  Point and RSM for bringing us out here.
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  So they've been kind enough to set us aside some space, get us
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  some great guests for this week where we have a couple episodes
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  and we're going to get to our guest here in a second on RSM
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  for funding our travel. And we're a sponsor here as
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  well. So you'll see us if you haven't
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  seen us, we're out at the booths as well.
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  And. Jeff, I think everyone should
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  know as well wearing. Our swag, right?
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  Stuff like that. So and then what's next for us,
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  We've got a Gartner conference that's coming up.
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  So we're going to be on stage doing something with our friend
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  Becky so. We also have a conference
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  discount code $375 off the registration fee, IDAC 375.
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  You can go to gartner.com to register for that one, or we'll
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  have the link in the show notes. Yep.
• 3:11
  So people can check that it's also on our website
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  idacpodcast.com. If you just Scroll down, all of
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  our current conference discounts are are listed there for easy
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  reference. So all right, why don't we get
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  into it because we're really going to kind of focus on IGA
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  and specifically, I think probably Sale Point here today,
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  just given where we're at for the conference and kind of learn
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  more about their viewpoints on the way they approach identity
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  and specifically identity governance and some of the lanes
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  that they're that they are in and maybe some of the lightning
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  lanes that are coming as part of that.
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  So I want to introduce our guest today.
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  His name is Andrew Moore. He's the Vice President of
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  Product Management with Sale Point.
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  Welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me.
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  Sad to be here. Well, thanks for taking the
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  time. You're a very busy guy and I
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  want to make sure we get us going and into it.
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  But it's first time with us. We always like to find out why
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  identity origin stories. How did you get into this space?
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  Yours is a little bit different than from from people, but tell
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  us, how did you get into identity?
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  Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
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  Oh, identity chose me. I really love this question.
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  I think when I came into this space, when I joined sale point,
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  I'd get it really often and it caused me wanted to be a little
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  bit of surprise like it is it that odd?
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  But then I thought about how I got here and what it looks like
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  from the outside. So I spent the majority of my
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  time in my professional career in product management, but in
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  Big B to C consumer applications.
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  So for those familiar with the MyFitnessPal nutrition tracking
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  application or Expedia and their travel space have spent time in
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  like mass consumer applications. So you may be asking yourself
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  how did identity come into the picture, which you are asking
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  very directly here. In my last role before I came to
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  Sale Point, I've been here about four years and I was hired to
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  come here. I was hired to come and build
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  out the platform, the SAS platform and really scale it.
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  And the interest from Sale Point was, hey, there's a lot of
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  enterprise applications that just need consumer level
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  expectations. Now we're all accustomed to
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  experiencing our iPhones and consumer apps.
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  Can we make it easier, less painful?
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  Also, the scale of what's happening in Identity is, is
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  massive. And what I did, I actually was
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  running the global identity platform for Under Armour.
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  So for those that are familiar with Under Armour, it's a big
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  sports and fitness brand. And I worked on the technology
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  side there. I mentioned the application
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  MyFitnessPal was owned by Under Armour time and throughout time
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  I was made responsible for building out a centralized data
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  platform for running our AI for coaching like health coaching.
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  On top of that as part of that I ended up owning the strategy for
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  our home grown identity system. So if you think about a lot of
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  our customers today at sale point out there that had their
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  own either consumer or you know workforce identity platform.
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  We had built our own for over 200 million identities and we
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  were given the charge to make it work for not just the
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  application side but for Under Armour's retail facilities,
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  their e-commerce application. So we had the single view of the
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  customer and it was really hard. What I found was to build it in
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  house. I kept thinking this has got to
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  be undifferentiated, heavy lifting.
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  There's got to be other companies out there doing this
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  at scale, which is where Sale Point came into the picture.
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  I was asking myself, the guy I, I'm seeing the evolution of
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  what's happening with automation and cybersecurity.
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  It seemed like a good space to go into and from.
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  You know, I live in Austin, TX, it's where Sail Point is
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  headquartered. I had some connections there and
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  the rest is history. Been here about four years and
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  it's been great, so. Take me through a day of life.
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  You know, I I mentioned vice president of product management.
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  What the heck does that mean? Like what is it you do?
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  Yeah. So I've got a a broad purview
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  that my teams are responsible for and I think about it mostly
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  as from end to end ideation to execution and understanding the
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  delivery of products. So a little bit more color on
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  that easiest thing that people are can grasp onto.
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  If you think about product, it's you develop a road map.
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  How do you develop a road map? Well, I've got a product
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  analytics team that we're looking at what's happening in
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  our customer base today. Let's analyze how they're using
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  the product. How do we make it easier?
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  We've got product managers that are talking to customers that
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  are researching the market landscape and building out the
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  strategy for that road map. And I've got a design team that
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  ultimately, after we decide where we should invest, we've
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  got a researcher team and design team that is designing the user,
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  experiencing the user interfaces, and then a product
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  operations team that's responsible for launching that
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  and going into marketing. So that's kind of in the
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  abstract. What is my org for me, I spend a
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  lot of time with customers. You know, tomorrow I think I
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  have, obviously it's our, our conference navigate, but I have
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  maybe 15 direct customer conversations, just meetings
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  with their leadership and their partners and development teams
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  to just understand where are you excelling?
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  Where are we adding value? Where are you hitting stumbling
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  blocks that we need to solve? And I just constantly think
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  about these engagements as I'm kind of like chief curiosity guy
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  in our organization. You'd be curious about what our
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  customers need, what's happening in the market and how we deliver
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  scalable solutions for them. And it's a, it's a really fun
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  job, can be incredibly challenging, but it's something
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  that I feed off of it's really fun.
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  So it's. A little bit of an interesting
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  background, go from Under Armour, right, and other firms.
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  Now you're with an identity company.
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  One of the things that as I was stalking you on LinkedIn was the
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  things you mentioned that you worked on was this hover
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  connected running shoe essentially, right.
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  Take me through the process of because that was several years
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  ago. I think now at this point, yeah.
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  It's probably almost 10 years, maybe eight years, something
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  like that. So it really.
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  Would have been on the forefront sort of the of that era of
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  wearables and connected health and fitness.
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  And now everybody's wearing a watch or a ring or something,
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  right? Yeah.
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  But the at the time that was a a new thing.
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  Yeah. Talk me through how that product
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  sort of came to life. And then here's my follow up
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  question is now we're ten years later and now you're with a
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  company like Sale Point and you're doing officially identity
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  things even though you were doing it with Under Armour.
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  Yeah. What would you have done
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  differently from an identity perspective with that shoe or
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  other parts that of that product line?
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  Such a good question. So how did that product come to
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  life? You know, we Under Armour made
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  some acquisitions into the health, fitness, health
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  technology space. And honestly, it was they had
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  good foresight. They were getting, you know,
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  there was heavy competition from Nike with their app ecosystem.
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  Fitbit was really growing. It was prior to Fitbit being
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  bought by Google and they rolled up these three big fitness
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  applications and we started looking at back to just the
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  analytics of the community. Where, where is this there an
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  intersection between what people pursuing longevity in life and
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  getting healthier in need and what Under Armour is uniquely
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  qualified to offer. An Under Armour was looking at
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  going deeper in their running line.
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  They had found kind of a strong niche there and really dedicated
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  high performance runners. We had a, an application in Matt
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  my run that was bringing kind of newer runners into the
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  ecosystem. It's one of the largest running
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  apps in, in, in the US. So it was just this good
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  marriage, at least in concept of all right, We're, we got this
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  footwear expertise. We understand athletes and we
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  have this community that are interested in this.
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  And so we had this innovation lab that I was part of and we
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  started working on could we create a wearable and embedded
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  in the shoe? Well, then you wouldn't, you'd
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  have to, you have to charge these things, right?
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  What if we used really low energy battery watches that you
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  embed in the sole so it could last longer than the the actual
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  sole of your shoe. So you'd be getting rid of your
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  shoe. Anyway, by the time it lasted,
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  all these little things started coming together and what Under
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  Armour was all about. And this ties back to really my
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  methodologies today in product and how we at Sale Point think
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  about identity is how do we leverage insightful data and
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  collected in a way that we can solve new problems for people to
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  be informed with data collection.
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  And so we were looking at how runners were, what they were
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  doing before they stopped, if they logged things like injuries
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  that were happening. And if we leverage this wearable
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  tech in the shoe, we could start to predict when people were
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  getting injured. We could see their cadence and
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  sort of fatigue metrics and figure out how we could coach
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  them to run more effectively. And so it just, it ended up
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  being this really popular shoe line.
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  It was, I think one of the largest shoe lines by the time I
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  left there. It started with like a cohort of
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  we did a test experiment of about 10,000 shoes.
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  And by the time I left, we were doing about 5 million I think in
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  those shoes, which is really cool.
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  That is a proud moment in my time there.
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  So why identity, you know, and what now, 10 years later, do I
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  think I would have done differently?
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  We did not invest heavily enough in creating a really sharp
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  opinion of the data model and centralizing data to train our
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  coaching algorithms off of. And what I mean by that is like
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  we, yeah, we would use anybody's phone, right, to collect data
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  about where they're running, how fast they're running until they
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  got our shoes. And then we got much more
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  accurate data about how they're running and we just didn't have
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  the expertise when we first started to build that out
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  efficiently and have a dedicated team on it.
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  We ultimately got there. We invested in a platform team.
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  We brought in kind of, you know, high flying new tech parts of
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  the stack to help us think through this and got some really
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  smart data science folks to do it.
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  I think we did that on the later end when there's a lot more
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  competition in the space. So if I look back on it, I think
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  what I would have recognized is we spent more time on the front
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  end of maybe how do you make it easy to get the shoes connected
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  because Bluetooth is everyone's favorite thing to try and deal
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  with. And we should have spent more
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  time on, can we make sure those insights and the very next
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  action that is best for a runner to prevent injury, to get
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  better, to get stronger made sense.
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  And why I think that's so critical is now I look at where
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  we are and we're in this just massive proliferation of data in
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  the identity space. And we've, we've gone down this
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  very similar journey. And the nice thing for me is
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  I've got the scar tissue to look back on and be like, oh, I've
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  been, I've been in this trench before and it's been really
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  useful now to help me in the current spot.
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  That balance of design and usability is constantly a
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  struggle in the security space because it's not historically
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  been a very user friendly industry, right?
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  And I mean by that is it's very information dense.
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  It is numbers and signals and frameworks.
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  Yep. And trying to put that in front
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  of a normal person, not an identity person is really an art
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  and a balance, right from that design perspective.
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  Am I thinking about this in a way that makes sense?
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  How does that sort of impact the way that you approach product
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  design for sale point, for example, is, is how do you know
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  like what color to use, where does this button go?
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  What should you take away because nobody are using it or
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  what are the things you want to add and sort of that
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  conversation maybe you're having with clients or customers as
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  well? Yeah, it's great question.
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  I, you know, commonly I'll say methodologies over genius, you
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  know, right, like the beautiful thing about software.
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  And I will commonly say that I believe software is the closest
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  thing to black magic that we have to offer, which is why I
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  like to work in it. But we've got just a really
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  sharp group of UX user experience researchers and
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  teammates and the methodologies and how they think are are what
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  can we really ask why to the depth that we know the problem
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  they're trying to solve, not predicating a solution.
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  How can we get really low risk signal about how to invest?
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  So we build prototypes. We do paper prototypes that will
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  show our customers. We'll do mock ups that we get
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  interactions for before we ever start writing code so we can
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  learn early. And then on the back end of
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  that, it's close feedback loops. So can you run tests on colors
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  and see who achieves the task faster?
• 15:45
  Can you, you know, watch the funnel on where people are
• 15:49
  dropping off and getting struggles?
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  I got some great feedback just walking around on just a string
• 15:55
  of text in our app that is confusing people.
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  And one customer said it and three other people were like,
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  yeah, that's the worst. You know, I was like, this is so
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  this is great. It's great feedback.
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  That's. What you want here, right?
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  Exactly, right, exactly. It's so valuable.
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  So for us, that methodology of thinking about the risk and
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  really understanding the jobs that people are trying to
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  accomplish are so important. That's why I love being here,
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  like just surrounded by people that are living this breathing
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  it of, hey, what's preventing you from getting the value for
• 16:24
  your organization? What's like driving your team
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  nuts? And there's always these new
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  insights. And so I've got most of the UX
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  leaders here. I probably have like 15 members
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  of my product team that are just constantly, they've got like
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  public calendly links for people to connect with them here.
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  And a lot of it is being close to the customer and then having
• 16:43
  those methodologies to to just refine and create those feedback
• 16:46
  loops. So Andrew, this is not a product
• 16:51
  management podcast, but I'm so fascinated by this topic.
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  There is a podcast I listen to a lot.
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  It's called Lenny's podcast. It's focused on product
• 16:59
  management. They have folks who are product
• 17:01
  manage, lead product management for companies, you know, like a
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  say a Notion or a Lucid chart all the way up to people who do
• 17:09
  product management or lead product management in big tech.
• 17:12
  And so I'm kind of wondering, like when I think about sale
• 17:18
  point, it's probably the the big giant in the space of IGA.
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  And at the same time, you know, being the big giant, you have
• 17:28
  the the focus and the message out there.
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  We're innovative. So I'm wondering how you make,
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  you know, they used to say with IBM how or I think somebody
• 17:39
  wrote a book how to Make the Elephant Dance.
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  So I'm wondering like how you doing that?
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  Then my follow up question, I'll get them all my product
• 17:47
  management questions out. The second one is how are
• 17:51
  product managers evaluated? Right.
• 17:54
  Because you aren't just the only product manager.
• 17:56
  You have a team of product managers.
• 17:58
  Yeah, yeah. So how do you know if somebody's
• 17:59
  doing a good job or not? Great questions.
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  All right, so first elephant dance.
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  I love that. By the way, I'm going to
• 18:09
  repurpose the elephant dancing. Maybe that's your new error
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  message. You know, it's I try animated
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  young friends, something like that, yeah.
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  That's a great idea. That's a great.
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  Idea Easter egg there. You know, I have been in
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  organizations that are too outwardly focused.
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  And what I mean by that is obsessed with competition.
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  What are these people doing? We're not doing enough in that
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  space. And I find that that usually
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  causes a market to regress to the mean if you're not careful.
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  Great competition is what we need.
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  Like I'm a big believer that that creates the right types of
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  constraints and motivations in organizations to get really,
• 18:50
  really innovative. But for us, what I've loved
• 18:53
  since joining Sale Point is just there is this constant drum beat
• 18:57
  of we can't rest on our laurels. We just can't rest on our
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  laurels. There are people catching up to
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  us. We can't just keep going in a
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  trajectory because we're headed that way.
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  We have to think about how we leapfrog and reform things.
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  And that's just really built into the DNA of sale Point is
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  that we, you know, I, I came in at a time where they were really
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  trying to cross across the chasm in the SAS part of the
• 19:23
  organization between we built up, you know, became a giant in
• 19:27
  the space, helped shape, you know, the compliance and
• 19:29
  governance space on the backs of identity IQ, which is still a
• 19:33
  great product. And then figuring out, all
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  right, SAS is seeming to become a, a bigger and bigger ask and
• 19:40
  just the adoption race. We're going at a really fast
• 19:42
  pace. What that opened up for us is
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  brand new types of technologies and the big hyper scalers and
• 19:48
  cloud providers. And so for us, I think if we set
• 19:53
  the right goals and have smart constraints around our teams and
• 19:56
  then hire and bring in discipline people that think
• 19:59
  with that kind of innovative engine, it goes a long way.
• 20:03
  We also just had practices like this year at Navigate, two of
• 20:10
  the four, I like big launches that we had came out of an
• 20:13
  internal we called it an innovation workshop and it was
• 20:16
  like a Shark Tank level. Months long innovation program
• 20:21
  that we built where anybody could submit from across the
• 20:23
  organization and it wasn't like a hackathon where it was a
• 20:26
  couple days it was they pitched into the C-Suite of the
• 20:30
  organization leadership selected the ideas they got the
• 20:33
  formulated team, they got executive coaches from our
• 20:35
  organization and ultimately the the prize was cash and then you
• 20:39
  got on the road map of the R&D road map and supposed to be one,
• 20:43
  but they liked 2 so much that we did two of them and that was AI
• 20:46
  automated application onboarding and machine identity security
• 20:49
  and they did insane research and they had data scientists on the
• 20:52
  team and so we just try and weave it into the fabric too of
• 20:55
  how we, you know, innovation is not just for the R&D teams.
• 21:00
  It comes from everybody like S ES in the field and sales folks
• 21:04
  and we had UX research driving one of the projects that was
• 21:07
  super powerful. So it's in the DNA sale point
• 21:11
  and that that's what I love about it.
• 21:12
  It just keeps, I think it keeps driving the right sort of
• 21:16
  outcomes when we have those incentives.
• 21:18
  And how do we know if you're doing a good job?
• 21:21
  Sure, the people that How do you know if the people that are
• 21:23
  working for you are doing a good job?
• 21:25
  Yeah. So we do, we do a couple of
• 21:26
  things here. You know, you could say revenue,
• 21:32
  I guess, you know, start there for me.
• 21:34
  I, I, I go deeper and I think about one, we pay very close
• 21:38
  attention to just the retention of our customers.
• 21:40
  So if the customers we have, are we treating them well?
• 21:43
  Are we getting the right, the right types of value so that
• 21:45
  they stay with us? So the longevity of those
• 21:48
  customer cohorts is really important in that retention
• 21:51
  rate. We watch really closely to
• 21:53
  understand, hey, what's what's going on with our customers that
• 21:56
  we need to change. So that's one and that can break
• 21:59
  down into having we use objectives and key results, OK,
• 22:03
  ours and each of our teams have specific results they're trying
• 22:08
  to drive. So for the workflows team, it's
• 22:10
  about depth and breadth of workflows.
• 22:12
  And they have a target that they're going after to see can
• 22:15
  we get 2/3 of enabled customers to have three or more of these
• 22:19
  workflows in production? And if they're not measuring to
• 22:22
  that, then we ask the question, we interrogate the goal.
• 22:25
  Was that the right goal? Was it the right thing?
• 22:27
  What other, you know, interferences are in the way
• 22:29
  that may have prevented it. But I asked each of my leaders
• 22:32
  create those with their teams and we measure them that way.
• 22:35
  And if you think about user experience design, it's part of
• 22:38
  the bigger picture. But we, we even do what's called
• 22:40
  Umux light, which is like a customer satisfaction score in
• 22:43
  the application. So we can see by part of the
• 22:45
  app, we pop up and ask, you know, 4 simple questions to a
• 22:49
  customer. It's kind of like NPS Net
• 22:51
  Promoter score, but it's more geared toward user experience.
• 22:55
  And that gives a signal. It's like a constant heartbeat
• 22:57
  for different designers in the application of how easy it is to
• 23:01
  use if customers are struggling with certain things.
• 23:04
  And so these are all different signals that we use to just hold
• 23:07
  ourselves accountable and make sure we're doing the right
• 23:09
  things. So I've always wondered, you get
• 23:11
  those pop ups, like what was this thing and what happened?
• 23:15
  Like take me through a little bit just behind the scenes.
• 23:17
  OK, So I answer those questions, then what?
• 23:20
  Yeah. So an example here would be I'll
• 23:22
  just keep extending this, this workflows team example, which is
• 23:26
  a low code, no code drag and drop experience for building
• 23:30
  identity automations in our platform.
• 23:33
  And there's a lot in that. You can say low code, right?
• 23:36
  And sounds great. But for some of the codes, they
• 23:38
  might just rather code it for someone that's new to the
• 23:41
  platform. You've got to have these menus
• 23:44
  and different descriptions and how you drag and coloration and
• 23:49
  hierarchy and there's a lot to it.
• 23:54
  We ended up using this U Max score to understand how
• 23:58
  effective is it? How are customers liking this?
• 24:00
  And our teams were setting goals, they were setting
• 24:01
  quarterly goals on can we drive this up?
• 24:04
  How satisfied are our users from, you know, one to five and
• 24:07
  can we drive them up from three? When we get that pulse coming
• 24:11
  in? Ultimately what those signals
• 24:13
  are giving us is it's a population of customers to then
• 24:16
  go dive deeper saying when they're trying to use it, where
• 24:20
  are they falling down? Can we schedule a research call
• 24:22
  with them to actually chat with them and understand what would
• 24:25
  what would make a change? So we're, we're mapping research
• 24:29
  techniques, quantitative and qualitative and kind of using
• 24:33
  different tools in the in the toolbox to get better signal
• 24:37
  about what we're doing. It's definitely not just going
• 24:40
  into the ether. So do you find so here's my my
• 24:44
  perspective on this, right? I see a pop up.
• 24:46
  I hate pop up, right? First of all, there's that, but
• 24:50
  I tend to only provide negative feedback.
• 24:53
  Sure. Do you find the same from you
• 24:56
  know? You got to try and control for
• 24:57
  the negativity bias. And so if at all we'll get to
• 25:04
  the like cultural anthropology, right?
• 25:05
  I get back to human biases and you know, thinking fast,
• 25:10
  thinking slow type methods here, getting a baseline is really
• 25:16
  important. So even if it's going to be
• 25:18
  skewed to the negative, if you're getting a baseline and
• 25:21
  you know you have population bias based upon their
• 25:23
  negativity, that's OK. And I'm of the opinion that I've
• 25:28
  got a balance out with quantitative scoring success for
• 25:35
  my team so that they're motivated, right?
• 25:38
  To see like, hey, look at all these great things customers are
• 25:41
  saying that will speak on our behalf.
• 25:43
  And look at all these massive impacts in like ROI they're
• 25:46
  getting in the organization. But I want bad news to be behind
• 25:50
  a megaphone, honestly, internally.
• 25:52
  And that's an old Bill Gates thing when he was seen as like a
• 25:54
  tyrant that he's like, I don't want to hear good news.
• 25:56
  I want to hear bad news because it makes us better.
• 25:59
  So I've got to have the types of systems and incentives and
• 26:02
  motivations to where that's not demoralizing, but it actually
• 26:05
  helps our team realize like, gosh, we're helping so many
• 26:08
  people and there's still a lot of low hanging fruit to really
• 26:11
  supercharge sale point all. Right, let me may put you on the
• 26:14
  spot here and I don't want you to name and shame anything, but
• 26:17
  what is the most critical or negative feedback that you've
• 26:22
  seen does? That happen to be current job?
• 26:25
  Or can it be prior? Sure, whichever 1 you want to go
• 26:30
  with. But like, what's the what's the
• 26:31
  like? That really cut me to the core
• 26:33
  and that hurt me. OK, I'm going to give you 2, you
• 26:38
  know, used to being in the consumer space, there's App
• 26:40
  Store reviews. So it's not just for you, but
• 26:43
  people can see it and it ends up on kind of like public, public
• 26:47
  square type space. And that is both one of the
• 26:51
  benefits of getting to work on applications that have had that
• 26:59
  much impact. When they're that broad, right,
• 27:01
  they mean something to people. We change.
• 27:04
  This is like going to seem humorous, but we changed how we
• 27:10
  visualize data about running statistics.
• 27:15
  So this is an Under Armour. This is an Under Armour product
• 27:20
  that we did and we did a long running research process.
• 27:23
  We did a lot of prototyping on it.
• 27:25
  Sometimes you still get it wrong, but I had someone write a
• 27:27
  review that said they obviously knew about software because they
• 27:31
  said whatever product manager is responsible for this, I hope X
• 27:36
  happens to their family. And it was just, you know, deep
• 27:40
  trolling that was hurtful. But I use that today with my
• 27:45
  team to kind of like put into context Internet culture, right?
• 27:50
  You got to learn to shake it off.
• 27:51
  You got to find the things that actually serve you and are
• 27:54
  meaningful from customers. And we don't have that, those
• 27:57
  problems today at sale point of that level.
• 27:59
  But we, we have had this is a, this is a great one that I, I
• 28:03
  actually really appreciate. I just talked to this customer
• 28:05
  yesterday's on our customer Advisory Board now, but we have
• 28:10
  a, a forum where our customers are able to submit ideas and
• 28:15
  it's voted upon and it helps us kind of get signal for, Hey, how
• 28:17
  impactful is this going to be? And there was someone that said
• 28:21
  something to the tune of I have a toddler older than this idea
• 28:26
  that had been out there for a while and it's now like a it's,
• 28:30
  it's a, it's a motivator in our team today.
• 28:33
  And certainly we, you know, I have to remind my team like we
• 28:37
  are humans and those things are going to be hurtful.
• 28:40
  And I think the mass majority of our customers in the ecosystem,
• 28:44
  they're so kind, but these are really impactful products that
• 28:49
  are, you know, people's careers. And when they get blocked and
• 28:53
  there's issues that they have to overcome, we have to we take it
• 28:55
  really seriously. And I think that's just so
• 28:57
  important for my role and my team is to recognize like, these
• 29:01
  are people's gigs and livelihoods that we got to help
• 29:04
  them get over the hump. And yes, we can't solve it the
• 29:06
  exact way all the time, but yeah, I certainly lose sleep
• 29:10
  over it, you know? Yeah, well, you know, you've
• 29:13
  made it when you have haters. So Jeff and Jeff and I are like,
• 29:17
  we're we're hoping to get haters.
• 29:19
  Trying to get the Yeah, we're. Working on the list and I'm not
• 29:23
  putting that out there for anybody.
• 29:26
  Not an invitation. Not an invitation.
• 29:28
  Yeah. So very thoughtful that whole
• 29:31
  line on the product management and it kind of leads into
• 29:33
  things. One of the things you mentioned
• 29:36
  was that you're creating a road map.
• 29:39
  Yeah, I think that's kind of the outcome or the the, the big
• 29:43
  deliverable it sounds like from your role, right.
• 29:46
  And it really makes a big impact here at the annual conference.
• 29:52
  And I'm kind of wondering if you could break down some of the
• 29:54
  highlights of that road map, what was announced during the
• 29:58
  the session so far or what's going to be announced?
• 30:00
  Obviously this recording will go out after that, but yeah, could
• 30:05
  you kind of give us some of the the key points?
• 30:08
  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 30:09
  So I'll, I'll talk about, you know, I'll, I'll often say
• 30:14
  product is a, a, what have you done for me lately type of gig.
• 30:18
  I will say this year a lot right now.
• 30:20
  And what I mean is 2025 because I'm just like my head is already
• 30:24
  in 2025, but talking about just celebrating all this massive
• 30:29
  innovation that we're releasing today.
• 30:31
  And this week at Navigate, a couple big ones that we've been
• 30:35
  in the worst for a long time. And 1st off is this work we're
• 30:39
  kind of chatting about in privileged task automation,
• 30:42
  which is this just industry shifting.
• 30:45
  Look at how you think about privileged tasks in your
• 30:51
  organization. There is a traditional way to
• 30:53
  think about it where privilege is a very small subset of
• 30:57
  activities that need to be faulted and recorded.
• 31:00
  And as we started to just talk with customers kind of pull on
• 31:04
  those threads, we realized privilege is a spectrum and sale
• 31:08
  point is really uniquely positioned to solve for some of
• 31:11
  these use cases because our customers invest so heavily in
• 31:14
  the connectivity layer to connect to, you know, hundreds,
• 31:18
  thousands of applications that had privilege throughout it.
• 31:21
  And this was, you know, the combination of an acquisition we
• 31:24
  made last year and then built on top of our Atlas platform and
• 31:28
  our work flows engine. But what we found is that you
• 31:30
  can automate what were previously highly repetitive
• 31:34
  tasks that took a human to go check out credentials to do it
• 31:38
  and actually go and re re perform these tasks over and
• 31:43
  over again. So you've got the human
• 31:44
  fallibility layer in there. And we could just take human out
• 31:48
  of that, that whole process automated on top of this trusted
• 31:51
  platform and even have interactive capabilities where
• 31:55
  if you need to, for the example, by creating group membership,
• 31:59
  we've had customers have that have told us about pretty dire
• 32:03
  changes where a change was made to a group or a deletion in a
• 32:07
  group. And it wasn't actually behind
• 32:09
  privilege that caused this like massive outage of access across
• 32:12
  the organization. I was talking to someone today
• 32:13
  that like 80% of individuals lost access to Wi-Fi and I was
• 32:17
  like, that doesn't sound very good.
• 32:19
  That sounds like a real nightmare for me, yeah.
• 32:21
  Exactly. A lot of people will react this
• 32:24
  related to that one, but this privileged tax automated
• 32:27
  automation project or product is one we're really excited about.
• 32:31
  It is just a a smart new look at how you leverage automation, how
• 32:37
  you take these repetitive tasks that are highly risky and do it
• 32:43
  in a way that's built quarter. Our platform gets a signed out
• 32:46
  as an entitlement. So it's got all these access
• 32:48
  controls already built in and life cycle management around it.
• 32:51
  And you could do things like log in to servers, start services.
• 32:55
  We talked about AD group management and what that looks
• 32:58
  like in our ecosystem on top of privilege task automation.
• 33:01
  We're just we're really thrilled at the feedback we're getting
• 33:04
  from customers since. Before you go on with the rest
• 33:06
  of the road map, kind of pick on this one a little bit.
• 33:08
  So privilege task automation feels to me like it's the
• 33:11
  biggest innovation. Management of AD security groups
• 33:15
  is like a sub bullet to that. But to me that's like, yeah,
• 33:18
  that's a big thing that organizations have been wanting.
• 33:22
  They either had to solve it. And the question is, why now?
• 33:27
  Yeah. So for us maybe back to even
• 33:31
  just this like product methodology, we're always
• 33:33
  looking at what are our competencies, customers want us
• 33:37
  to solve a lot of things and we can do anything, just not
• 33:42
  everything. And in that space we started
• 33:45
  seeing, hey, there's, there's a lot to group in AD hygiene and
• 33:51
  is Microsoft going to be providing new tools that make
• 33:54
  this easier or there's a very pretty well defined niche space
• 33:59
  out there in Group management and kind of data hygiene,
• 34:03
  transform cleaning products. And as an open platform, we were
• 34:07
  thinking, well, integrations are going to work really well here.
• 34:10
  That's what we're built to do. We're great at for customers
• 34:13
  that want to build their own version of this and have a
• 34:15
  workflow around it and then integrate it in We, we support
• 34:18
  that and have for a while, but we just kept getting more and
• 34:22
  more signal for our customers on, hey here are these really
• 34:27
  like security risks and massive productivity impacts happening
• 34:31
  with group changes and the light bulb went off for us when we
• 34:35
  started embarking on this privileged task automation of
• 34:38
  man. This is a privileged task that
• 34:40
  you want to be able to assign to a very small subset in some
• 34:43
  cases to take those actions. And do they even need to do it?
• 34:47
  Do they even need to actually sign in to AD go create that?
• 34:50
  We can do this in a way that most of it is automated.
• 34:54
  We can have overlays to ensure that naming schemas are met in
• 34:59
  the interactive forms as part of that task when it's launched.
• 35:02
  So it just all started to come together for us where we
• 35:05
  realized customers are are still not being met, where they want
• 35:07
  to be met on this and we can solve this started to make more
• 35:11
  sense for us to make sure that, you know, there's so much
• 35:15
  downstream of if groups are coming in and they're they're
• 35:19
  not coming in in a way that it's easy to understand relationships
• 35:23
  on or if a workflow is disrupted that something's happening
• 35:27
  outside of our identity security cloud product.
• 35:32
  Then there's just this gap that they have to go to some other
• 35:35
  team in the organization. So as we looked at productivity
• 35:39
  and this new opportunity made a lot of sense for us to to put an
• 35:42
  offering out there. Jeff and I have been in this
• 35:44
  space for 20 years and I say that the the idea was that Igas
• 35:50
  role is to put people in and out of groups.
• 35:53
  It's something else to create the groups.
• 35:56
  But I think the lean is widening, right?
• 35:58
  So it wasn't, I agree strictly in the lean of IGA before, but I
• 36:03
  feel like there's some flexibility there.
• 36:06
  Certainly when you look at like the ID PS of the world, they're
• 36:08
  now saying we have IGA, we have the ability to yeah, attest or
• 36:13
  recertify people in our directory, which to me is very
• 36:17
  different than attesting to a correlated account that's
• 36:23
  actually coming from the applications.
• 36:24
  It's the spectrum that you've talked about.
• 36:27
  Yeah, it's doesn't have value. Well, sure, it has value versus
• 36:31
  certainly versus doing nothing, sure, it's way better than that.
• 36:34
  But is it all the way at the other end of the spectrum where
• 36:36
  you're actually certifying what's in the application?
• 36:39
  So, right, sorry, went down a rabbit hole there.
• 36:41
  But I do think, you know, is that right that you look at it
• 36:45
  as the Lena's kind of expanding? I think it's, I think it's a
• 36:48
  great way to put it for if we think about our customers
• 36:52
  identity teams and even just the CISO or CIOs organizations looks
• 36:57
  a little different in various enterprises.
• 37:00
  But the lanes widening and also due to just the continuing
• 37:08
  evolution of security threats and vectors, the I, I like to
• 37:13
  call them the synapses in organization like those, we need
• 37:16
  new synapses between dev SEC OPS, between the identity team,
• 37:19
  between the HR organization and what used to just be focused on
• 37:24
  productivity or compliance. If you don't have that identity
• 37:27
  context throughout every layer, then you're going to struggle
• 37:31
  when downstream negative impacts happen, how you go upstream and
• 37:36
  fix it. And this is one of those places
• 37:38
  for us where we saw it maybe used to be outside of the
• 37:42
  identity team's purview, but they're finding that a workflow
• 37:46
  that is more important for them to achieve automation or to
• 37:49
  decentralize application onboarding so they can speed up
• 37:54
  and make it easier around some standards.
• 37:56
  There was this gap between, oh, we need to create a group and
• 37:59
  then it's got to get, you know, aggregated in and correlated.
• 38:02
  So that's time that I got to shift off task.
• 38:04
  And we looked at it in a new way to realize this makes complete
• 38:08
  sense for us to to solve and to I think many of our customers
• 38:11
  going yes. Yeah.
• 38:13
  And with with security group management, I think if you don't
• 38:16
  look at it very deeply, you just say, OK, it's just a tiny little
• 38:19
  feature. But I've worked with so many
• 38:22
  organizations that don't have the tool that they just go
• 38:24
  directly into Active Directory users and computers, create
• 38:28
  groups, fill in the information that they feel is required.
• 38:32
  Yep. And you?
• 38:33
  Name it some weird ID name that nobody knows what that means.
• 38:36
  Exactly. The proliferation of that
• 38:38
  downstream is wild. The signal.
• 38:40
  You lose, you don't have all the governance around, you know,
• 38:45
  required. Feels like, who's the owner?
• 38:47
  Yep. What's the purpose of the group?
• 38:50
  Things like that. And so it's vitally important.
• 38:53
  So organizations that don't have a tool to guide all those things
• 38:57
  end up with groups for all. They end up with a group, a
• 39:01
  bunch of groups that they don't even know what what the original
• 39:05
  intent was for the group, right? So I think it's very important.
• 39:08
  What are some of the other areas that you're announcing this
• 39:11
  week? Yeah, it's pretty, you know,
• 39:13
  adjacent to that, we've invested in a new product called Machine
• 39:16
  Identity Security, which is in a similar space.
• 39:20
  We started seeing just this maturity curve out there in
• 39:24
  customers on how they enable the creation of new service accounts
• 39:29
  or new Rpas in their environment was pretty unsophisticated.
• 39:34
  There are a lot of customers that have them in Excel
• 39:37
  spreadsheets still today. It's not a single repository.
• 39:39
  They don't can't even visualize how big the surface area is of
• 39:43
  automated machine accounts or identities taking actions in the
• 39:48
  ecosystem all the way up to pretty sophisticated
• 39:51
  organizations that have a single repository for it.
• 39:55
  They've got some good access controls wanting to be able to
• 39:59
  take it to the next step and actually like pay these things
• 40:02
  down, use a lot of the AI capabilities we have on outlier
• 40:06
  detection and activity to make it sharper and pay down that
• 40:10
  risk profile while not inhibiting the productivity
• 40:13
  they've created for their developer organizations.
• 40:16
  So we're, we're pumped about this one.
• 40:18
  I mean, just the, the energy around the space.
• 40:22
  It's been interesting to watch because.
• 40:25
  Especially in the venture capital space, I feel like I
• 40:27
  kind of have a joke with my team that every week I'd wake up to a
• 40:30
  new company and machine raising $60 million.
• 40:32
  And of course my team would be like, OK, can we get more
• 40:35
  funding in this space? Which?
• 40:38
  Then you remind them you're not a venture capital.
• 40:39
  And I was like, we, yeah, exactly.
• 40:42
  But you know, we've, we've invested really intelligently
• 40:44
  here where, you know, the same same team that focuses on our
• 40:48
  accounts and our identities team has been working on over the
• 40:52
  past year uncorrelated account detection and native change
• 40:56
  detection from external systems. And our this came out of that
• 41:00
  innovation workshop I talked about earlier where we had a
• 41:02
  data scientist look at our whole ecosystem and understand how big
• 41:07
  the problem was with machine accounts out there that had no
• 41:10
  owners that were difficult to correlate.
• 41:12
  And so we've made an automated discovery mechanism for machine
• 41:16
  identities across our entire connectivity fabric.
• 41:18
  And it's built right into the platform with all out-of-the-box
• 41:21
  access controls that you want to have.
• 41:24
  And then just bespoke changes that we needed to make in the
• 41:27
  identity model with attributes and ownership kind of fall
• 41:30
  through and life cycle that you'd want to have that's
• 41:32
  slightly changed for a human to a machine.
• 41:36
  And we think this is going to be a.
• 41:37
  Just a. A big unlock for customers and
• 41:40
  to kind of turn down the real risk and kind of heart rate for
• 41:44
  some CSO's who I'll ask, I'll talk with.
• 41:48
  I was talking with a financial institution that I was working
• 41:52
  with her CSO and I said, I'm sure y'all, y'all are pretty
• 41:54
  sophisticated in this space. And she just smiled at me and
• 41:56
  she goes, I want to know more about this product because I'm
• 41:59
  not sure how many of these identities we even have in our
• 42:02
  ecosystem. And just goes to show you
• 42:04
  they're really secure identity security company and their
• 42:08
  program is but back to that lane widening concept from human into
• 42:14
  not employee and 3rd party is something we went into big over
• 42:17
  the past year. And then in machine, we those
• 42:21
  are, you know, comprise this huge surface area that we
• 42:24
  understand really well and are excited to help customers just
• 42:28
  discover and manage a lot more effectively.
• 42:31
  OK, final question, Yeah, and it wouldn't be an episode of our
• 42:34
  podcast if we really get into AI just a little bit, sure.
• 42:37
  But I want to hear more of a philosophical answer of this is
• 42:41
  where do you see AI taking the IGA space specifically, right.
• 42:46
  So if any government's administration, this is sort of
• 42:48
  a Gartner has coined, you know, this product set or the set of
• 42:52
  capabilities as where is AI going to take that?
• 42:56
  Yeah, so it's a great question. We, you know, it's part part of
• 43:00
  our launch here, may have seen it in the keynote.
• 43:02
  We we have been working on this agentic AI solution that's
• 43:06
  currently in beta. We're just honestly, I'm just
• 43:09
  kind of staggered by what the team has done here.
• 43:12
  I promise I'll get to the philosophical part here.
• 43:14
  That is my that's my favorite place to be frankly.
• 43:17
  But what we've done is, you know, we really have been just
• 43:22
  methodically building out our e-mail architecture over the
• 43:28
  past, you know, five years or so where we've got, we thought
• 43:32
  about it from the ground up. One thing we think is going to
• 43:35
  be increasingly important is the privacy as it relates to AI.
• 43:39
  What data does it have access to?
• 43:41
  Who has the right to see that data?
• 43:44
  It's crazy how quickly that can get out of control when
• 43:48
  generative AI and LLMS are unleashed on data, and we've
• 43:51
  seen that even with internal companies creating their own
• 43:54
  LLMS and agents to do certain things for look UPS, etc.
• 43:58
  So for us, we're just really proud of where we came from,
• 44:01
  like leaning on this deep expertise in, you know, the
• 44:06
  identity space and privacy and security for how we thought
• 44:09
  about exactly how we build our AI architecture.
• 44:12
  I think that's going to be really important, increasingly
• 44:14
  important as we go forward. You know, there's a lot of fear
• 44:19
  that comes out of when you even just see our solution.
• 44:21
  It can, it's trained on the documentation.
• 44:23
  It can teach you how to use the application.
• 44:25
  Hey, what is how do I manage machines?
• 44:28
  Which of my identities are the riskiest ones?
• 44:30
  What should I do with those? I can do maturity guide on risk
• 44:33
  levels for you. It can generate workflows, it
• 44:35
  can generate certifications. It's really powerful.
• 44:38
  But what we think is going to be most important for us is staying
• 44:43
  really zeroed in on that refinement.
• 44:47
  If you've heard in like the LLM space of like rags of how you
• 44:50
  actually refine data and actually make purpose built AI,
• 44:55
  I'm just a real believer that it's going to be this big
• 44:59
  productivity boosters. But in the right zones, I am
• 45:03
  less. I'm very bullish, less fearful
• 45:06
  than a lot of people are and what they think AI is going to
• 45:09
  do in this space. I think what it's going to
• 45:12
  enable us to do more than anything else is be less fearful
• 45:18
  about the proliferation of accounts and access into really
• 45:23
  fine needles in a haystack fast. I think about some of those real
• 45:28
  prominent examples of AI at its best with like machine imaging
• 45:32
  technology in like cancer screening.
• 45:36
  When you compare it to like radiologists looking at certain
• 45:39
  images versus another and just finding anomalous things that
• 45:42
  are very hard for the human eye to find.
• 45:45
  You can have great principles and policies and build all those
• 45:49
  out. And we've created AI tools along
• 45:51
  the way. App onboarding, entitlement
• 45:53
  descriptions with Gen. AI access modeling, outlier
• 45:56
  detection and recommendations and really trying to close that
• 46:00
  loop. We think that's really
• 46:02
  important, but I keep just coming back to, I think it's
• 46:07
  going to remove a ton of friction and start to highlight
• 46:12
  key areas where you're not having to make these massive
• 46:16
  certification decisions constantly.
• 46:18
  You're not having to spend nearly as much time on access
• 46:20
  models because you're just focused on the extra on the
• 46:24
  really those outliers in high risk zones.
• 46:27
  And you're going to get a lot of productivity boosts along the
• 46:29
  way where you can train people faster or you can.
• 46:32
  I, I, I'm definitely cognizant of this notion of is AI going to
• 46:36
  replace people's jobs? And I have young kids.
• 46:39
  I'm constantly thinking like, what are they going to do if
• 46:41
  this has the worst case scenario and I just don't see it
• 46:45
  happening. I see more than anything else in
• 46:47
  our space, it's a great microcosm.
• 46:50
  You got teams that are strapped. They are having trouble getting
• 46:55
  enough people in the door to focus on these massive problems.
• 46:58
  And right now with solutions like this, you can help train
• 47:03
  people faster, You can get people that aren't in the app
• 47:05
  every day to use it quickly. So it just becomes that really
• 47:08
  like that really well informed guide and teacher along the way.
• 47:12
  I'm going to mention two concerns.
• 47:14
  I have AI with IGA. So first is if AI is making
• 47:20
  decisions on who gets access to what, Yep.
• 47:23
  And you can't explain how that decision was made.
• 47:26
  In other words, AI decided. We don't know why that's that
• 47:31
  goes against what has been the IT goes against the main
• 47:34
  principle of IGA, right. So the second one is how do you
• 47:38
  secure it? So to make sure that only the
• 47:40
  right people can ask certain questions or get certain data in
• 47:44
  the response or in a software as a service that now the AI is
• 47:48
  smart enough to know what's happening across multiple
• 47:52
  customers and somehow someone can engineer it to get
• 47:56
  information that's on a competitor, for example.
• 48:00
  So those are my my two biggest concerns.
• 48:03
  Let me. Tag on that one.
• 48:04
  What if it does the wrong thing? Yeah, that's the biggest there.
• 48:07
  I think from a security perspective is can we trust the
• 48:10
  AI to get it 100% of the time right?
• 48:13
  Right. Yeah, I think the classic
• 48:15
  example of this is like just autonomous driving too.
• 48:18
  If you think about people are just so terrified of the use
• 48:23
  case of what if, the who's who's liable in those circumstances
• 48:28
  where something goes wrong? Is it the car?
• 48:29
  Is it the manufacturer? Is it the software owner?
• 48:32
  And you know if you. Really think about it, the data
• 48:34
  set there is really compelling when you compare it to
• 48:37
  distracted driving and how many people are out there that you
• 48:40
  see at a stoplight like looking at their phones.
• 48:42
  And but at the end of the day, we trust humanity.
• 48:46
  We trust humans and I, I things that I'm not concerned about
• 48:52
  back to the design, not only of the architecture from the ground
• 48:56
  up of how we how we think about housing data that it's only
• 49:01
  going to be used in the cases where it's needed for that
• 49:04
  customer's data alone. If it's not public or sensitive
• 49:07
  data, that's paramount for us. We can't do that.
• 49:11
  That is the that is the sale point brand, right?
• 49:14
  Like doing it with integrity and impact the right way.
• 49:17
  And that's how we're going to build this and how we started
• 49:19
  from the very first, but also the like how you grant access.
• 49:26
  We are what do we do? Well, we govern access to
• 49:29
  things. So creating capabilities of I
• 49:32
  think philosophically where we're gonna need to play in this
• 49:35
  space is exactly there. This is no different than, you
• 49:39
  know, lower level machines, human access, what you should be
• 49:42
  able to access. We got to be able to empower
• 49:44
  that. That's paramount.
• 49:46
  And I think the your first, your first concern remind me what it
• 49:49
  was. Was we can't explain why AI made
• 49:52
  the decision on. So there's a philosophy set of
• 49:58
  principles out there. It's called explainable AI.
• 50:00
  And really what this is, is just imagine in an identity solution
• 50:05
  today, if you didn't emit an audit event, you wouldn't know
• 50:08
  what the what the team did to change that thing, right?
• 50:11
  Same goes for AI. We've got a, the black box can't
• 50:14
  be a black box. It's got to be open.
• 50:16
  You have to have explainable AI, which is here's the set of
• 50:19
  decisions. Because what's great about this
• 50:22
  is a kind of Petri dish. And I say this and identity
• 50:25
  security for AI at large is we have to exceed the expectations
• 50:29
  of risk and compliance. And if we're doing that, then
• 50:32
  that gives us really good signal of where we can continue to grow
• 50:35
  it just in intelligent, methodical and sensitive ways.
• 50:40
  OK, your hand rails are getting restless, so we're going to wrap
• 50:43
  it up here. Oh no.
• 50:45
  Thank you so much for spending time with us.
• 50:47
  Yeah, it's been really fun. It's been a really.
• 50:48
  Interesting conversation and I'm I'm I'm very bullish on the ice
• 50:51
  stuff. So anytime I see, I'm always
• 50:53
  naturally curious about it and I think it's going to be a great
• 50:56
  differentiator for a lot of folks in this space.
• 50:58
  So you too, Thank you so much for taking time.
• 51:01
  We're going to have a link to your LinkedIn profile in our
• 51:04
  show notes so people can connect.
• 51:06
  And hopefully you know some nice things.
• 51:08
  Maybe dancing elephants. Or other things like that.
• 51:11
  No, no. Yeah.
• 51:11
  Can't wait. Right.
• 51:14
  And that's it. So we're on the web,
• 51:15
  idacpodcast.com, we're on YouTube, idacpodcast.tv, like
• 51:20
  and subscribe helps us get great guests.
• 51:22
  And yeah, we'll leave it there. Thanks everyone for watching and
• 51:25
  or listening and we'll talk with everyone and the next one.
• 51:30
  You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
• 51:33
  We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
• 51:38
  review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
• 51:41
  website at identity@thecenter.com.
• 51:45
  See you next time on Identity at the Center.