Latest / The Strength In Numbers Podcast / EP 6: Miranda Holder | When and How to Pivot in Your Career

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EP 6: Miranda Holder | When and How to Pivot in Your Career · The Strength In Numbers Podcast

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  A lot of people have said, you know, it's so brave that you
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  started a business and honestly, in the moment, the way it felt
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  was like that's the only right option.
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  It didn't feel like an act of courage.
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  It just felt like none of this feels all this feels wrong, but
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  this feels right. There's so much, honestly,
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  mythology, I think around coaching and not always in a
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  good way, that we sort of think we have to be this person for
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  other people and we have to have it all together.
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  We have to know what we're doing.
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  We have to have all the answers. And there's a lot, a lot of
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  pressure on that person. And I think we do not realize
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  how much support we need. Like if we're going to give to
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  others, we need someone pouring into us.
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  We need spaces to unpack our own stuff.
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  We need to understand our patterns and habits.
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  To learn that you can speak to yourself and not just listen to
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  yourself is profound. You got to know who you are
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  because who you are is going to be with you all the time.
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  Welcome to the Strength in Numbers podcast.
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  I'm your host John Bloom. We've got a special guest today,
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  Miranda Holder, the founder of Holder Leadership, where she
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  works with clients as a leadership and career coach.
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  Now before starting Holder leadership, Miranda was the head
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  women's rowing coach at Georgetown University and I get
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  asked a lot about what it's been like to leave college coaching
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  and make the transition to business.
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  Well, this is something that both Miranda and I have done.
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  And if you're thinking about making that transition or, or
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  any career pivoter transition, you really don't want to miss
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  this episode, right? We dive deep into, you know,
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  what your first step should be, how to guide and evaluate your
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  decision making, the tools to change your mindset and the
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  stories we tell ourselves. Enjoy the episode, Miranda.
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  I'm, I'm super excited to, you know, catch up with you and get
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  a talk with you today and, and, and get to have this
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  conversation with you. Oh my.
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  God, John, I'm so excited to be here and it's so good to be in
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  conversation with you again. Thanks for having me.
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  Of course. Could you just talk about like,
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  like who who are you and what drove you to do what you're
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  currently doing? A.
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  Nice easy softball question to get us started.
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  Who am I and what drove me to do what I'm doing?
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  I am a person who enjoys pushing myself.
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  I'm a person who enjoys challenges, challenges.
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  I'm a person who I think ultimately at my core, is deeply
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  devoted to helping people and supporting people as they
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  change. I'm a former college level rower
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  and trained for the US team afterwards and then coached at
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  the collegiate level at Division One level for another 10 years
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  after that and finished my tenure as the head coach at
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  Georgetown. And the athlete, the coach in me
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  loves results. And so I'm deeply devoted to
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  seeing change, to being a part of change, and to supporting
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  people as they change. And so that's ultimately really
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  like, I could say lots of other things and lots of other
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  descriptors, but that's really what drives me is I love that I
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  get to be in relationship every day with people who want to make
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  change in their lives. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I I really
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  love, I love the direction you took that.
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  And as, and you know, as you just talk about change right
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  there, just kind of, you know, an interesting question I'm, I'm
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  thinking of is asking is like what's, what's 1 maybe change
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  during this year, like a habit or routine that you may be added
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  that you found to be really impactful for you during this
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  year? What a good question.
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  I, I would actually say I can't think of, I'm trying to think of
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  one that actually was the one that changed.
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  I'm in that I'm sorry for everybody who's listening.
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  I'm in a phase of I'm 43 years old, I'm a mom of a 7 1/2 year
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  old son. I've got a husband.
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  We live in Vermont. I'm in a, a deeply routinized
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  phase of life. And for all the parents out
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  there listening, you know what I'm talking about about.
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  And so much of my life is organized around maintaining and
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  keeping routines and disciplines in place.
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  And I'm trying to think of what I've changed.
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  I think one of the things that has, I wouldn't say it's
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  necessarily changed this year, but it's been a newer thing is
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  celebrating. I'm in a group of the female
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  entrepreneurs and we meet weekly.
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  And one of the things that I've been slower to the party about
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  doing is celebrating wins in front of other women, which I
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  think is something that I think if you were raised with any kind
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  of if humility, I was a value in your family growing up.
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  But especially for women, typically we're not encouraged
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  to be sort of big in the world. And so it's been really powerful
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  to share wins and to witness each other accomplishing what we
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  want to accomplish and to be bold about saying it out loud in
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  front of other people. Yeah, yeah.
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  No, I love that. And you know, as you talk about
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  how kind of this stage of life it's, you know, more routine,
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  more routine for you and, and less change.
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  But in in, you know, early on you mentioned a little about
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  being an athlete, being a coach. And you had, you had a couple of
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  big transitions there and changes where you went from
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  being an athlete to a sport coach, right, And rowing.
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  And you went from being a sport coach then to now being an
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  entrepreneur and running your own business.
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  How did how did that change that you went through from athlete to
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  coach impact the way you transitioned from coach to
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  business owner? The common thread being the two
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  and really the common thread throughout my life, which is
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  inform the work that I do is that for better or for worse,
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  John, I can't do things I don't want to do.
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  So I am deeply connected to what I want and what I desire and
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  what feels right for me. And I can't not do that.
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  And so when I was, I was diagnosed with a congenital
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  heart condition at 25. And that put my sort of any, you
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  know, Olympic or elite level dreams to bed.
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  I realized the job that I was doing at the time wasn't, it
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  wasn't very exciting without rowing in it.
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  And rowing was what I loved. So I transitioned from being a
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  copy editor at an advertising agency to being a full time
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  college coach because that's what I wanted to do.
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  That's where my heart was. And then when I left coaching to
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  start my business, I considered a lot of different options and I
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  thought about HR and sales and recruiting, and I kind of looked
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  at what my next chapter could look like from a sort of
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  corporate standpoint. And none of them felt right.
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  Like they didn't. They just didn't feel right.
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  They made sense on paper, but they didn't feel right in my
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  body. And at the time, I didn't
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  understand what I was tapping into.
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  But I trusted myself and I trusted that sense.
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  And I've been using that sense to kind of to guide me my whole
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  life with varying degrees of trust and success.
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  And now I understand more about the science of what that is and
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  how it works. But that's been really what's
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  driven me and what's kind of led me through is I, for better or
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  for worse, I know what I want and I go after it.
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  And, you know, a lot of people have said, you know, it's so
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  brave that you started a business.
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  And honestly, in the moment, the way it felt was like that's the
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  only right option. It didn't feel like an act of
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  courage. It just felt like none of this
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  feels all this feels wrong, but this feels right.
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  So I'm going to keep going toward what feels, what feels
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  right. How does?
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  How does like experiencing that and now as you work with
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  clients, right myself included, that we work together as I was,
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  I was making a transition from college, transitioning to
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  opening a business. How does those experiences for
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  you impact the perspective or the empathy that you go into
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  those coaching relationships with?
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  Well, I mean, I think I've, you know, I've been there and I've
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  not been there, right? Like I've, I've been a sport
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  coach transitioning to a business owner.
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  You've been a sport coach transitioning to a business
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  owner. And so I feel like I can, I can
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  speak to that experience, right? I've lived that journey.
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  And part of what I love about my job is that, you know, I haven't
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  lived John's life, right? I'm not John.
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  And so one of the cool unique things about my job is that I
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  get to both bring in experience where it might be useful and
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  necessary and be able to empathize.
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  And I think we can work faster together when we have that
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  alignment. And it helps to not know what
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  it's like for the other person because you ask a lot of, I call
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  them great dumb questions. You ask a lot of what feel like
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  really obvious questions, but I'm not inside your body.
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  I'm not inside your brain. I don't know what's important to
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  you. It's different from me.
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  And we often aren't given the the luxury of that kind of
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  experience in conversation with other people is to explore and
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  kind of be expansive and to think about these questions.
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  So I think I bring both familiarity and being in the not
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  knowing together. Yeah, that's good.
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  And I would say that's definitely something experienced
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  where I think I think the power and coaching sometimes is not
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  just being directed or told, but it's like that coach drawing out
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  whether it's a, you know, coach to an athlete, you know, coach
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  to a business or whatever. It's like drawing out the ideas
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  or the abilities within the person that they already have,
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  but maybe don't know they have or, or understand maybe how to
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  operate in that. And that, you know, I get, I get
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  asked now a lot by lots of coaches, like, you know, what's
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  it like leaving college athletics or like, do you miss
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  or like, you know, you know, making that transition?
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  And I, I think there's lots of people, you know, we've talked
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  about the, the changing environment of college
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  athletics, right? With, with the way things have
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  evolved and more and more coaches are looking at other
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  opportunities. If somebody was making, deciding
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  to make that transition, they're going to leave that, whether
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  it's to, you know, open a business or go into some other,
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  other career pivot and they don't have a coach, you know,
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  they're not working with you, which they should.
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  I definitely recommend working with somebody.
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  But if they if they're doing it on their own right now, like how
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  should they, how should they be thinking about that transition
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  for themselves? How should they be thinking
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  about that transition for themselves?
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  I think one of the first steps is to realize how you're
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  thinking about it at all, right? Is to to look at or to become
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  aware of of, you know, what's the lens that you're looking
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  through this experience, you know, through because so often
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  that's the value or that's one of the biggest pieces of value
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  in this type of coaching is, you know, people come and talk to me
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  and they say, well, you know, I work with a lot of mid career
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  professionals, right? And a lot of them have reached
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  they've kind of done the memo. I call it like they've done
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  everything right. They've gone to college, they've
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  worked really hard, gotten good grades, they've gotten good
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  jobs, they've gotten promoted, they're making good money.
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  They maybe have some kids in the family.
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  They are feeling very secure financially.
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  Maybe they bought a house and then they are not really loving
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  the job that they're in and it doesn't feel like it's really
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  hitting the mark in terms of it's not meaningful or
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  fulfilling. Maybe they find it really
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  stressful and overwhelming. Maybe they, it doesn't feel like
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  it taps into their sort of fullest capacity as a
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  professional or as a human and they want something different.
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  But they often feel like, well, you know, if I'm able to pay my
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  bills and my family's happy, like, shouldn't I just stay like
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  the devil I know is better than the devil I don't know, right?
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  Like, and so there's underlying beliefs like underneath that
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  mindset or approach, right? And so helping people understand
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  or you know, so I think waking up to like, what do you believe
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  is true, right? So if you did a journaling
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  exercise of like what I think is true about work and my role of
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  work, right? And what perspectives have I
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  been given about work? But some of the questions I
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  asked clients in the beginning, it's like what what was in your
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  family? What were beliefs about work
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  that you got handed? Like one of the ones my dad
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  handed me as he said, do what you love and the money will
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  follow, which is like true and not true all the same time.
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  But you know, my parents were very much, they encouraged me to
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  follow my heart and to follow, you know, what I wanted to do.
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  And they didn't have a lot of they didn't, they put stuff on
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  me, but they didn't put that on me.
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  They wanted me to follow sort of my own heart on that.
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  So I think starting by reflecting on what you think is
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  true about the world, what you think is true about work.
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  What are your belief systems? And that can be challenging to
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  do by yourself, but not undoable.
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  Yeah, and you know, that makes me think back to when you first
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  started like a big thing you had me do in in the beginnings, like
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  before jumping in, OK, how am I going to start this business?
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  It was that like understanding, like the self-awareness of
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  myself, like what are my strengths?
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  What are like, what am I bringing?
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  And you even had me do things where I was asking, right?
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  People that I've worked with, like, you know, what shows up in
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  the room when I do like what, what are my strengths and
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  getting understanding, like why, why is that so important?
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  Rather than jumping into this is this is my business plan.
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  This is what I'm you know how I'm going to make money, the
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  different things I'm going to do XY and Z.
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  Because on so if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you're going
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  to transition, whether you go into a corporate role or whether
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  you go into starting your own business, you got to know who
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  you are because who you are is going to be with you all the
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  time, right? And so like, let's say, let's
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  use a really basic example. I'm extremely introverted and
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  shy, and I also love people, but I get energy from time alone.
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  I'm probably not going to love a role that puts me out in front
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  of people all the time, right? I can do that.
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  I'm a professional speaker. I have to get up on stages and
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  talk to people Like I love doing that, but I like doing it in a
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  certain amount and with plenty of rest in between.
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  Mm Hmm. And so knowing these things
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  about yourself can help you inform what you do next.
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  And I think a lot of people just make the mistake of just jumping
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  and without really knowing, like, what's my purpose here in
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  jumping? Like, why am I making this move?
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  What do I hope this is going to give me, right?
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  Like a lot of people don't actually, they set a goal, but
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  they don't take the goal further and say, well, what is how do I
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  hope this goal makes me feel? Because often we're searching
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  for a feeling and we think the goal will make us feel that way.
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  Like I want to own my own business so I can feel free, so
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  I can have agency or autonomy over my time.
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  So like, you know, whatever it is, we don't do that sort of
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  thinking and processing and aligning before we jump.
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  And there's no wrong way to do it, right?
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  You're going to learn either way as you go.
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  But I do think it goes, you can make fewer mistakes and I think
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  you have a better shot of aligning your next step to
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  something that's going to be more meaningful and fulfilling.
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  And it's going to help you really achieve the goal that you
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  set to be more thoughtful about those at the outset.
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  Yeah, yeah. You know, now you're kind of
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  what you're saying is like now we're making decisions based off
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  our principles, suppose and foundations rather than trying
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  to just take decisions like individually and make them.
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  But but now we kind of have that that guide of knowing who we are
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  that's leading us kind of make each decision and it just
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  simplifies all the rest of the path we have to go down.
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  Yeah, I think it does because you know, some, you know, some
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  even like how do I make decisions, right?
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  Am I the kind of person who I make a really deep pro and con
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  list and I think about things for a while, or am I kind of a
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  gut operator? Do I have a feeling about
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  something and I want to, you know, move from that place?
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  Like when I work with clients, oftentimes even just identifying
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  that and seeing I'm often working with people who like
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  myself, I'm recovering, call myself a recovering over
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  thinker. I love to analyze even as much
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  as I like to feel. So helping people learn how to
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  make decisions differently because you know, a career
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  transition is an opportunity to learn how to make decisions
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  differently for the rest of your life because it's not the last
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  time you're going to be feeling uncertain or not sure you know
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  what's next. Yeah.
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  And one thing I've been thinking about, right, some people think
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  about like decision making when there's really hard or like
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  there's potential bad outcomes of like how do I make these
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  decisions? But what about when we have
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  maybe two options and both could be good outcomes, but there's
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  uncertainty of which one? Like which one we should do when
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  there's no, there's no wrong answer necessarily.
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  What should be our guiding compass during that?
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  Or how are we discerning which direction to go when?
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  It's not going to be bad if we do either of them.
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  Yeah, and I love that you bring that openness in right from the
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  get go. I love that.
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  So I work as a somatic coach and what that means is I help people
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  tap into their bodies more. And so what's happening for us
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  in any given moment is that we're thinking about things, but
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  we're also feeling things. And not just emotional things,
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  but physical sensations like when you and imagine, so if you
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  imagine two options and neither is bad or neither are bad.
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  My when I'm walking a client through a moment like that, I'm
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  inquiring as to OK, if you and we'll even do an exercise like
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  this. Like I had a client once who is
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  deciding between two things and they had her walk between 2
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  trees and one tree recommend, you know, represented one
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  decision and the other tree represented the other decision.
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  And she started in the middle. And then I asked her to walk
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  toward one tree and then back and then toward the other tree
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  and back. And her job was just to notice
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  her body and to notice what happened when she walked toward
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  that tree of decision A and what happened when she walked toward
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  decision B. And there is information in our
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  nervous system that comes up during that time.
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  But because of our heavily intellectualized society and
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  culture, we're not taught how to interpret or understand that
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  information. We typically categorize it as,
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  you know, it's embodied. So it's, it's primitive, it's
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  emotional, it's we've got to be rational.
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  So we kind of put it aside. But there's, you know, our
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  values live in our body. Our intuition, which is really
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  deep pattern recognition lives in our body.
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  And so we have a lot of information that we need to be
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  able to surface and reveal and work through and discern
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  through. And I think the best leaders
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  really do that and leverage that.
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  And so I help clients, you know, do that in a moment and bring
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  forward that information in addition to whatever they're
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  thinking through in terms of their mind, in terms of the sort
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  of, you know, more intellectual, cognitive, you know, what about
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  pros and cons of this, pros and cons of that?
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  But then also what about this other piece?
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  What other information do we have?
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  And oftentimes I find that people get to real clarity
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  through that, like because I work with a lot of really smart
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  people who can, they know they can think through things very
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  well. They don't need my help there.
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  But what they do often need help connecting to is that little
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  pull in the back of their mind that says, well, what about what
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  about this or that feeling in their gut that says, well, this
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  doesn't make sense, but this, this direction feels right.
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  And to be able to sit with that and untangle it and use it, I
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  think is really powerful because it's, it's kind of it's, it's
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  they're driving either way or it's, they're influencing our
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  decision either way. And so you can either use it for
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  good, or you know and use it purposefully and intentionally,
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  or you can let it use you. Yeah, that's really interesting.
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  And does that apply to the other end of OK, we made that decision
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  and now we're reflecting or evaluating the results of that
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  decision and whether to continue down that path or make a pivot
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  or? What?
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  Yes, exactly. Yeah.
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  How how would that look like? Then I guess more practically
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  like, OK, you know, like I guess like when what's the time frame
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  do you feel like we should be evaluating decisions from to see
• 17:54
  like this is the direction I wanted to go or maybe I need to
• 17:58
  to change and adjust it a little bit or even a complete different
• 18:02
  direction or a different decision.
• 18:03
  Do you mean when do we know? Like how long do we wait before
• 18:06
  we make a change? Yeah, or or understanding like
• 18:10
  you know, let's say, OK, we had those two decisions, right, that
• 18:13
  neither of them were wrong necessarily and we would make
• 18:16
  one like when should that evaluation process really start
• 18:20
  of that decision? That's a great question.
• 18:24
  It's like, why does it ever have to stop?
• 18:26
  Yeah, I think it can start right away and then it can go on
• 18:29
  forever. OK.
• 18:31
  I actually have a a resource that I will use with clients and
• 18:35
  I call it an interoceptive journal.
• 18:37
  And the word interceptive simply means your awareness of the
• 18:40
  inner state of your body so that the nerves on the inside of your
• 18:43
  body, the ones that help you feel your heartbeat or the ones
• 18:45
  that help you feel that sense in your gut, or like those are the
• 18:48
  nerves we're talking about accessing.
• 18:50
  And that those are the signals we're talking about.
• 18:52
  And so, you know, typically I'll have clients say, OK, what's a
• 18:55
  decision that you're facing? Like just write that down, OK,
• 18:58
  here's my decision. What am I thinking about that
• 19:00
  decision? What am I feeling physically in
• 19:02
  my body about that decision? What do I feel as the what's the
• 19:06
  decision I'm going to make? And then how do I feel once I've
• 19:08
  made it? And then the real, I think
• 19:10
  there's a lot of gold and coming back later and saying, OK, how
• 19:13
  do I feel a week out? How do I feel a month out?
• 19:15
  How do I feel a year out about that decision?
• 19:18
  And I mean, this is honestly the reason why I'm here doing the
• 19:21
  work that I'm doing is because, and I noticed over the course of
• 19:25
  my life that I had very strong interceptive feelings, a very
• 19:29
  strong sense of the inside of my body, very sensitive to what was
• 19:32
  going on. And my body would give me very
• 19:34
  clear signals about whether or not something felt right or
• 19:36
  wrong for me in the moment. And for much of my life, if it
• 19:39
  didn't make sense, I couldn't, I couldn't always follow it,
• 19:42
  right? I would let myself get talked
• 19:43
  out of it and always I regretted it.
• 19:45
  I was always like, why did I go, you know, against my sort of
• 19:49
  sense of what was right in this moment?
• 19:51
  And it took a very, very painful and expensive, I'll be honest
• 19:55
  moment for me to. I made a vow with my body where
• 19:59
  I said I'm never not going to listen to you again.
• 20:01
  And then I went on a really long journey to understand the
• 20:04
  science and the research behind When I'm feeling this stuff, I
• 20:07
  don't have magic fairies on my shoulder.
• 20:09
  Like, what is going on inside me and how can we use this for
• 20:12
  better decision making? Yeah.
• 20:14
  Connecting that back to how we started the conversation, how
• 20:16
  did how did those feelings show up during that transition when
• 20:20
  you knew it was time to start your business?
• 20:23
  Well, I had the gift of being newly married at the time.
• 20:27
  And my husband was also a college coach.
• 20:29
  He was a swim coach. I was a rowing coach.
• 20:31
  And he got, I didn't actually, I can't even give myself credit
• 20:35
  for figuring this out. It was kind of fate.
• 20:37
  And then also, you know how I responded to it.
• 20:39
  But he had an opportunity to coach at another university and
• 20:43
  he interviewed for the job. And all of a sudden I started
• 20:45
  imagining because we were both at Georgetown at the time and we
• 20:48
  loved our jobs. But as he started considering
• 20:51
  moving somewhere else and we're a unit now, I thought, oh, wow,
• 20:53
  Like if I started having all this time, like I woke up to the
• 20:57
  fact that I was exhausted and burned out in a way that I
• 21:00
  hadn't really allowed myself to realize and feel.
• 21:04
  And then he didn't get the job and I started crying.
• 21:08
  And he was like, excuse me, I didn't, this is my job.
• 21:10
  Why are you? Why are you crying?
• 21:12
  Like, what's wrong? And I realized in that moment
• 21:16
  that like, it was like the full weight of my current experience
• 21:20
  hit me. And I realized like, I'm
• 21:21
  exhausted. I've been pushing myself for 17
• 21:24
  years, you know, starting early, ending late, driving myself
• 21:27
  really hard, being incredibly hard on myself.
• 21:30
  And I'm done. But it didn't really, it didn't
• 21:33
  allow myself to feel it until somebody offered me an exit ramp
• 21:38
  off the highway. And then when the exit ramp
• 21:40
  closed, I realized I really needed it.
• 21:43
  And so then I spent another year planning for that transition
• 21:46
  because it was this is like early September.
• 21:48
  And you know, at that point, you're on the you're the trains
• 21:50
  were moving, right? The kids are back.
• 21:52
  Like you're not going to leave at that point.
• 21:54
  That's not right. And so I enjoyed my last year
• 21:57
  and I made plans during that time for my transition.
• 21:59
  Yeah, that's that's really interesting and fascinating to
• 22:02
  hear. It kind of sounds like when that
• 22:05
  that possibility of of y'all moving for, for his if he got
• 22:09
  that job, it's like that kind of like snapped you out of like a
• 22:12
  trance or like kind of burst out of the bubble of your current
• 22:16
  state and there's no going back after that.
• 22:19
  And I guess one one part with then with that, as you talk
• 22:22
  about, OK, you had that year when you basically knew you were
• 22:24
  going to transition after that. How did that change your
• 22:27
  perspective of of your job during that year?
• 22:29
  I wish I could say I did something amazing with that
• 22:32
  year. I wish I could say that I had so
• 22:35
  much more distance or what have you, but I'll tell you honestly,
• 22:41
  I didn't have the tools yet that I really needed, I think, to
• 22:44
  transform myself in that experience.
• 22:48
  Right? Like what I didn't realize at
• 22:49
  the time, but that I learned just a year later in the
• 22:52
  Georgetown coaching program as I got trained as a coach, was that
• 22:56
  so much of my suffering was a result of the story that I told
• 22:59
  myself in the moment. And I didn't know that yet.
• 23:02
  So I feel like I might have been able to shift differently in
• 23:05
  that final year, but I tried to enjoy it as much as I could.
• 23:08
  But as you know, right, it's like the end of a workout,
• 23:11
  right? It's the last two reps When
• 23:12
  you're trashed and you're done, you're done.
• 23:15
  So I did my best that year, but I, I don't know that I took
• 23:19
  advantage of the year the way I might have liked to in
• 23:21
  retrospect, because I was, I wanted to, you know, do right by
• 23:26
  the student athletes that I was with.
• 23:28
  I cared about, I cared about them deeply.
• 23:30
  And I felt really guilty leaving.
• 23:31
  And I actually felt like I felt guilty leaving the student
• 23:34
  athletes and I felt guilty. There's so few women in college
• 23:37
  sports. There's so few women head
• 23:39
  coaches. I felt sort of like a traitor to
• 23:41
  my gender, which I know sounds melodramatic and ridiculous, but
• 23:45
  talked to a lot of other female coaches who feel similarly in
• 23:48
  the moment. I was like, you can't cut it.
• 23:49
  There was a lot of negative self talk going on there that I had
• 23:52
  to, you know, work through. That might not have been the
• 23:55
  answer you were looking for, but that's the truth.
• 23:58
  I mean that the truth is the answer I'm looking for, You
• 24:01
  know, as you talk, you know, those last couple things you
• 24:03
  said kind of sounded like the, the, the story that you couldn't
• 24:06
  change that you referenced in your head, right?
• 24:08
  What, what tools are like? How should we be thinking about
• 24:12
  the stories? I think it's common.
• 24:14
  We've talked about this before, right?
• 24:16
  It's so easy to create these these stories in our head of how
• 24:19
  interactions are going to go. You know what's what's going on
• 24:21
  in our reality or our world, right?
• 24:25
  How should we be managing those stories in our head?
• 24:27
  And what tools do you have now that you reference that you
• 24:30
  didn't have back then? Yeah, I mean, I think I have
• 24:33
  awareness. Awareness is one of the biggest
• 24:35
  tools we have. Like I realize now that the
• 24:38
  chatter in my brain is something that I can redirect, right?
• 24:42
  Like I have a coach that I work with for a period of time.
• 24:45
  And the way she put it, and she was a client, but I loved, she
• 24:47
  gave me a gift in this language, you know, she said, I have to I
• 24:51
  can listen to myself or I can speak to myself, right?
• 24:54
  And so like to learn that you can speak to yourself and not
• 24:57
  just listen to yourself is profound.
• 25:00
  And so first you have to start listening to yourself so that
• 25:02
  you can hear what the story is like what what are the themes or
• 25:05
  the patterns or the common stories that come up.
• 25:08
  Are you often a victim? Do you feel disempowered?
• 25:11
  Are you always is never enough and starting to listen for those
• 25:15
  stories and then realizing that you can change them and that's a
• 25:20
  hard idea. Like I mean, even my had a
• 25:22
  really had amazing assistant coaches when I worked at
• 25:26
  Georgetown and one of them Steve full talked about this.
• 25:29
  They talked about changing the story and I didn't understand
• 25:32
  that concept when he told it to me, I was like, what do you mean
• 25:34
  change the story? Like the story?
• 25:35
  Those are the facts. Like come on, like that you
• 25:38
  can't change this. But what I realized is that what
• 25:41
  we, we often construe opinions or not completely true facts as
• 25:45
  facts. And so we look at a situation
• 25:47
  and we think it's very rigid and we don't see that what we're
• 25:51
  saying is a fact is not really a fact.
• 25:53
  It's an opinion. So I started by kind of parsing
• 25:56
  out like what's really fact here, What's really fiction,
• 25:58
  what's really an opinion or, or what's an instinct I have about
• 26:01
  about this that may not be correct.
• 26:03
  So starting to parse out like listen to the story, parse out
• 26:06
  the opinion, the fact, and then choose a different story, right.
• 26:09
  So like, let's say I meet with a perspective, a client and I
• 26:13
  e-mail them about something after the fact and they don't
• 26:15
  respond. I don't have any information
• 26:17
  about what's going on for them, but I could make up a story that
• 26:20
  makes me feel one way or the other.
• 26:22
  And it's up to me to make up a story that's going to help me be
• 26:25
  in service to that person and to me into my business.
• 26:28
  And so if I tell myself the story that, oh, they didn't like
• 26:30
  talking to me and we're not a good fit together or whatever,
• 26:33
  that's a story that's going to probably make me withdraw and
• 26:35
  not reach back out to them and keep the relationship going.
• 26:38
  And this is I'm speaking about, this is no longer how I conduct
• 26:41
  these relationships, but this is this is what I did early on in
• 26:44
  my coaching practice. And I started to notice that and
• 26:47
  to say, you know, I don't have any information about what's
• 26:49
  going on with this person. Why not tell a different story
• 26:53
  that keeps me moving forward in the business where I keep
• 26:55
  reaching out, where I keep connecting instead of stopping
• 26:58
  myself with my own thoughts? It was really like, honestly
• 27:01
  horrifying to realize like how much was happening as a result
• 27:04
  of what I now call it. Just like it feels like I'm
• 27:06
  telling myself fairy tales because that's about the level
• 27:09
  of fact sometimes that's really there.
• 27:11
  Yeah. And it kind of like the phrase
• 27:13
  is kind of like active control versus like passive control kind
• 27:16
  of comes to mind for me as you talk about that.
• 27:19
  Yeah, say more about that. I'm not familiar with that term.
• 27:21
  Well, I'm I don't know, that's the term I just came to my head
• 27:24
  right now. But like, you know, just like as
• 27:26
  you're talking about taking control over that story, it's
• 27:29
  like I'm actively like, you know, taking control of the
• 27:32
  situation where I can impact the situation or have a positive.
• 27:34
  But then when it's like creating those negative stories of they
• 27:38
  don't like me or they don't want to work, you know, whatever,
• 27:40
  it's like you're taking this passive step back where you're
• 27:42
  just, you know, everything bad's happened, you and like you don't
• 27:45
  have any control over it. So that's kind of where my mind
• 27:48
  went. Yeah, you're exactly right.
• 27:49
  And it's it's this, it brings you the sense of agency, right?
• 27:53
  It gives you the sense of of and not in a bad way, but power and
• 27:57
  control back is to say, you know, if I really see what's,
• 28:00
  you know, what I actually know to be true here, which is
• 28:02
  typically not much, right? And and then what can I do as a
• 28:06
  result? There are so many more options.
• 28:08
  And it expands the story. It expands your emotional state.
• 28:11
  It expands the possibility in the moment.
• 28:13
  And suddenly there's flexibility and room to move where before it
• 28:17
  felt like because this is how I'm telling the story, I only
• 28:19
  have have one option. Yeah, yeah, no, that's like for
• 28:24
  me and this is a little different, but like as a as a
• 28:26
  coach of person, the way I like if I'm looking at coaching an
• 28:29
  athlete and then I try and you know, tell us to the athletes
• 28:33
  too. It's like I try and communicate
• 28:35
  like if you switch the way you view life as like you are the
• 28:40
  one and full control of every situation.
• 28:44
  Like if I'm, if I'm coaching somebody and exercise and
• 28:46
  they're doing it really bad and everybody else is doing it
• 28:49
  really well, rather than just like, you know, getting on that
• 28:51
  person like like, why are you not doing right?
• 28:53
  It's like I'm putting, I'm putting the not blame, but
• 28:57
  control or ownership of that on me.
• 29:00
  Like I need to find a better way to coach and fit this person.
• 29:04
  Because if I just put it on them like everybody else to get it,
• 29:07
  why aren't they getting it? I have no more control over
• 29:10
  that. It is it's full control over to
• 29:12
  that other person. But if it's if it's the way I'm
• 29:14
  coaching, the way I'm doing it, even if there's situation where
• 29:17
  maybe I don't really have control, but now I have the
• 29:19
  power to actually impact the situation.
• 29:21
  Absolutely, because you always have power and how you respond,
• 29:25
  right? Even if you went up to that
• 29:26
  athlete and said, you know, OK, help me understand, You know,
• 29:30
  like you could start to work with them and to figure out
• 29:32
  what's making them, you know, move their body in this way.
• 29:35
  And, you know, maybe they give you some attitude because
• 29:38
  they're they're they're noticing it, they're aware they're not
• 29:40
  doing it right. They don't feel good about that,
• 29:42
  right? And then you always have a
• 29:44
  choice in how you respond back to that person, right?
• 29:47
  It's back to that, like passive versus active.
• 29:49
  So there's always a move. Always.
• 29:51
  Yeah, yeah. And that's great.
• 29:54
  You know, next question I have and and when I say coaches here,
• 29:57
  let's think in sports. So coaches in sport, what do
• 30:00
  what do coaches need that they they aren't usually getting?
• 30:04
  Coaching, yeah. Support.
• 30:07
  I mean, I, I would, I would go back and give myself that
• 30:13
  perspective, right? Like what is bananas to me is
• 30:16
  that we as sport coaches, we see the value in having someone
• 30:20
  outside of our, you know, outside of our athletes being
• 30:23
  able to help them. You know, hey, you think your
• 30:25
  elbow is up here, but your elbow is down here.
• 30:27
  You're trying to contract this muscle, but you're actually
• 30:29
  contracting a different muscle, right?
• 30:30
  We know deeply the value of having somebody outside of you,
• 30:34
  But I think there's so much pressure when we get, there's so
• 30:36
  much honestly, mythology, I think around coaching and not
• 30:40
  always in a good way that we sort of think we have to be this
• 30:43
  person for other people and we have to have it all together.
• 30:46
  We have to know what we're doing.
• 30:47
  We have to have all the answers. And there's a lot, a lot of
• 30:49
  pressure on that person. And I think we do not realize
• 30:53
  how much support we need. Like if we're going to give to
• 30:55
  others, we need like we're pouring out to others.
• 30:58
  We need someone pouring into us. We need spaces to unpack our own
• 31:01
  stuff. We need to understand our
• 31:03
  patterns and habits. Like, how many coaches have we
• 31:05
  heard about who throw chairs and, you know, have tempers and
• 31:08
  behave really poorly in front of student athletes in one way or
• 31:11
  the other, right? Like, if you don't have that
• 31:13
  awareness of yourself, and that's an extreme version,
• 31:16
  right? Let's even take the person who's
• 31:17
  not behaving badly like you can be a more effective instrument
• 31:22
  if you're aware of how you show up, if you're aware of your
• 31:25
  belief systems, if you're aware of the stories you're telling
• 31:28
  yourself or the story that you have about your team and how
• 31:31
  they're doing and what they're doing.
• 31:33
  And there's so much more flexibility when we have that
• 31:36
  support that I think we often feel like our egos get in the
• 31:40
  way and we're not willing to accept that and accept that we
• 31:43
  might benefit from having a coach for our coaching and a
• 31:47
  coach for us and a place for us to go and be.
• 31:49
  Yeah, 'cause you know, I, I think of like, I think coaches
• 31:53
  are performers too, just like, just like the athletes, right?
• 31:56
  Especially, I mean, if we're thinking like, let's think like
• 31:59
  a head coach, especially within like a, you know, field or court
• 32:02
  sport where like you are actively making decisions with
• 32:06
  high, high stress anxiety within, like I said, we're
• 32:10
  thinking game day, like within the flow of like minute decision
• 32:13
  making and, and stuff. And and you have to be at your
• 32:16
  very best to perform in those situations.
• 32:18
  Absolutely. My best season to date.
• 32:21
  I was not a head coach, I was assistant coach.
• 32:23
  I was at Northeastern University.
• 32:24
  I was coaching the 3rd varsity 8, which was also known as the
• 32:27
  novice 8. That's like the mixture of the
• 32:29
  bottom varsity, you know, top of the freshman program.
• 32:33
  And that boat went undefeated all season.
• 32:36
  And part of it is, you know, like, I just got out of the way.
• 32:39
  Yeah. Like, that's how I felt about
• 32:41
  it. Like, I was just like, manage
• 32:43
  your own self, Miranda. Like manage your emotions,
• 32:45
  manage, you know, whatever you're feeling like your job is
• 32:49
  just could be the calm center. The athletes were amazing.
• 32:52
  I was very lucky, right when when a team does well, I really
• 32:55
  believe like that's the athletes, you know, the coaches
• 32:58
  can support that for sure. We can get in the way for sure.
• 33:01
  But when a, you know, team does well, it's it's the athletes.
• 33:03
  And so I just managed to stay out of the way.
• 33:06
  But other years I don't feel like I stayed out of the way,
• 33:08
  right. And I didn't manage myself as
• 33:10
  well. But that year I remember I can I
• 33:13
  take, I can go back into my body, I can be in my car driving
• 33:15
  to the boathouse. I can tell you exactly how it
• 33:17
  felt before during the race and after, when I was just so aware
• 33:22
  of how, if I managed myself, I just got my own stuff out of the
• 33:26
  way so they could do their thing and that was really important.
• 33:29
  No, that's awesome. Do you feel like, you know, you
• 33:32
  reference kind of the mythology of like feeling we have to
• 33:34
  figure it out, But especially as as you reach higher positions as
• 33:38
  a coach, like, you know, you were talking about kind of that
• 33:41
  was like earlier, you know, on in your career here was like as
• 33:43
  we get to those maybe bigger head coaching roles or where
• 33:46
  we're the person in charge of everything.
• 33:49
  That that feeling of I have to have it all figured out.
• 33:51
  I have to take control and show that I'm like leading this thing
• 33:55
  rather than letting the athletes whatever, where maybe if I'm a
• 33:57
  younger assistant, you know, I can let people take control
• 34:00
  because maybe the expectation is different.
• 34:03
  Yeah, say more about that. I guess, do you feel like that
• 34:06
  as we go back to talking about stories?
• 34:08
  Do you feel like that's a common story that people create in
• 34:10
  their head as they do? You know, maybe they're just
• 34:13
  hired to fill this position and it's a step up for them.
• 34:17
  And it's like they they come in with this story in their head
• 34:19
  that they have to be the one in charge controlling everything.
• 34:23
  Yeah. So I mean, I'm sure you have
• 34:24
  stories yourself where you heard coaches talking like that
• 34:28
  because I I've heard it, right. Like somebody says, well, did
• 34:31
  you see what so and so did at such and such university?
• 34:34
  Like in the first year they went to NCAA's, right.
• 34:37
  And like, that's where I think that's sort of like mythology
• 34:40
  comes from as we look at what certain coaches have
• 34:42
  accomplished and we don't often see, like we don't really see or
• 34:46
  appreciate how much is going on behind.
• 34:48
  And I'm not, do not, I don't want to sound like I'm
• 34:50
  diminishing coaching, right, or diminishing what coaches have
• 34:52
  done, but I think there's so much more to it than just the
• 34:56
  leadership of the coach, right? Like where is the team culture
• 34:59
  coming into that? Like what quite literally, like
• 35:01
  who do they have? What bodies do they have?
• 35:03
  Like what, what level of talent OR fitness do they have?
• 35:06
  What kind of support do they have from the university
• 35:08
  admissions or financial or otherwise?
• 35:09
  Like what are the resources? Like?
• 35:11
  There's so much that goes into success and performance.
• 35:14
  And I think we mythologize or put this coach up on a pedestal.
• 35:19
  And I, I mean, I heard it talked about and I feel like we also
• 35:23
  take a lot of responsibility as coaches.
• 35:25
  And so that's great thing to take responsibility, but there's
• 35:28
  a dark side of responsibility, which is now it's all on me.
• 35:30
  And if my coach, if my team doesn't perform, then I'm
• 35:33
  completely to blame for not having LED this team the right
• 35:36
  way. And there's both truth in that
• 35:38
  and and also untruth, right? It's it's a quite literally a
• 35:42
  team effort not to use the cliche, but it's so much more
• 35:44
  than that coach. So yeah, I'll stop there and let
• 35:46
  you respond. You know, as you're talking
• 35:49
  about like, OK, looking at this person brought their teen
• 35:51
  Vincias in the first year and like looking outward and put in
• 35:55
  trying to draw from from other coaches that are having success.
• 35:59
  Maybe you think about like the balance of like doing that
• 36:01
  because obviously, yes, we want to learn from from other people
• 36:03
  are doing a really good job, but also not just blindly looking
• 36:06
  OK, these people. Maybe I'm seeing the Cliff notes
• 36:10
  of these certain attributes or these certain steps that this
• 36:13
  coach took to to reach the success without knowing the full
• 36:17
  picture and, and taking from and that without really knowing like
• 36:20
  what are the actual things that resulted in that success And
• 36:23
  maybe I'm taking the wrong things.
• 36:24
  Exactly. I think, I mean, that gets back
• 36:26
  to our whole thing of stories and fact and fiction and what
• 36:29
  assumptions are we making. And I think we do that.
• 36:32
  I mean, that's how our brain is wired.
• 36:33
  Like our brain is a prediction machine.
• 36:35
  It doesn't want to go slowly and think through things because we
• 36:37
  would get way less done and move slower throughout the day.
• 36:40
  So I think it's a really hard thing to do, to stop and to
• 36:43
  notice those stories and to recognize that we're making a
• 36:46
  lot of assumptions about what we think we know about what's
• 36:49
  making a person or a team successful.
• 36:52
  Yeah, yeah. No, no, I love, I love kind of
• 36:54
  where this has gone and now we're gonna move on.
• 36:56
  So I got 3, three questions can I ask at the end of the podcast.
• 37:00
  So the first one for yourself personally, when you realize
• 37:04
  there's some skill set that you need to improve for yourself,
• 37:07
  how are you closing that gap? Well, first you have to
• 37:09
  recognize that and be OK with that, right?
• 37:12
  And and then my advancing age in my 40s now, like I'm much more
• 37:16
  OK. Like I've realized that if I
• 37:18
  want to perform better, like high performance inherently
• 37:21
  means I have to get help, right? Like it, it's no longer like if
• 37:24
  I want to stay independent, do it on my own, I'm probably going
• 37:27
  to go slower and be less good, right?
• 37:29
  So when I recognize a gap, my first move is like, who can help
• 37:33
  me, right? And what am I?
• 37:35
  And I'm using my sort of, and I know for everybody's listening,
• 37:41
  apologies in advance, it sounds very hippy dippy, but I'm using
• 37:43
  my compass on the inside. I'm using that intelligence that
• 37:46
  they have in my body to notice. Like what am I drawn toward?
• 37:48
  Like everything that's really helped me as a coach and as a
• 37:51
  business owner. I can cognitively talk about it.
• 37:54
  I can tell you like my gap is XY and Z, but then I'm also, you
• 37:58
  know, drawn to a continuing education program or somebody to
• 38:01
  study under. I'm drawn to a certain coach is
• 38:03
  going to help me work on this part of my business.
• 38:05
  So I'm, you know, I'm using my head, but I'm also using my body
• 38:08
  to kind of dictate and help me navigate and figure out like we
• 38:12
  know what makes sense for this gap that I want to close.
• 38:14
  But then also what's what's, you know, what's in alignment really
• 38:17
  with my values and how do I really want to get to that next
• 38:20
  place? Yeah, awesome, awesome.
• 38:22
  Now, second one, right, the the podcast name, right, the
• 38:26
  strength nervous part is kind of based off the the book I wrote
• 38:28
  and and the huge theme in that book was just how coaches are
• 38:33
  are impacting coaches and mentoring other coaches.
• 38:35
  So as you think about your journey through business,
• 38:38
  through coaching, through life, who are are three, whether it's
• 38:42
  really impactful people or situations for you that have
• 38:46
  been super impact before your journey.
• 38:48
  I. Can I think just three African,
• 38:51
  I think just right. I mean, I got to say my husband
• 38:53
  honestly, because he's been he's believed in me from the
• 38:57
  beginning and he's definitely believed in me when I don't
• 38:59
  believe in myself. And having someone beside you
• 39:01
  who encourages you and believes in you over the course of your
• 39:04
  life is a total game changer. And so if I, if I said anyone
• 39:08
  else first, that would just be wrong because he said the
• 39:10
  biggest, he's had the biggest and most powerful impact.
• 39:13
  And then beyond him, there's a really powerful coach that I
• 39:16
  studied under for four years named Doctor David Drake at the
• 39:19
  moment Institute. And his approach to coaching
• 39:22
  really helped me level up in a, in a new way.
• 39:24
  And when I say coaching here, I'm, I mean professional
• 39:26
  coaching, leadership coaching. And then another person is a
• 39:29
  really, another really important person to me is a woman named
• 39:31
  Adele Fedorak, who's a coach in Canada.
• 39:33
  And she was the one who really made me.
• 39:35
  She helped me kind of uncover what my gift was to give the
• 39:38
  world like because I had been coaching for a while at that
• 39:40
  point. And I kind of, you know, I
• 39:43
  could, I could coach a lot of people on a lot of different
• 39:45
  things, but she really helped me get to the heart of or get to
• 39:48
  the root of what change I wanted to see in the world and what,
• 39:51
  how I really wanted to focus on my effort and energy.
• 39:53
  Like what was what was my gift to give?
• 39:55
  And that was a really profound moment for me.
• 39:58
  Yeah, that's that's really cool to hear about those people and
• 40:01
  their impact and the the last question.
• 40:03
  OK. So you might, you have to take a
• 40:04
  second to think about this one. But what, what have we not
• 40:07
  talked about today that you feel is really important that we do
• 40:11
  talk about? What a quick question.
• 40:13
  I'm always conscious of the fact that when you talk about
• 40:16
  listening to your body or you talk about, you know, your gut,
• 40:19
  that's a really loaded word for a lot of people.
• 40:21
  And it can often it can sound woo, woo.
• 40:24
  It can sound hippy, dippy. And we use the word intuition or
• 40:27
  gut to kind of it's this giant umbrella over a lot of different
• 40:30
  things. And So what we haven't talked
• 40:33
  about is I think some of the more the nerd in me is like the
• 40:36
  scientific aspects of like, you know, what's really going on in
• 40:40
  that moment because we're talking about your nervous
• 40:41
  system. We're not talking about
• 40:43
  something that's ephemeral that you can't, you know, get AT or
• 40:46
  understand. And so I would just say for
• 40:48
  anybody who's listened to this and who maybe has a strong
• 40:51
  reaction to that word or to that, you know, to that
• 40:54
  directive of sort of listening to your whole being more, if
• 40:57
  you're curious about learning more, I'd be happy to talk to
• 40:59
  you about it because I think it's a it's just really
• 41:01
  fascinating needing to learn that our biology sets us up to
• 41:05
  navigate, like it's there to help us navigate.
• 41:07
  And it's a biological reality. It's not woo woo fairy stuff.
• 41:12
  And it helps leaders and coach leaders of any stripe make
• 41:16
  decisions, I think, in a more powerful, holistic way that
• 41:19
  definitely gets better results. Yeah, yeah, the, I mean, I, I
• 41:23
  need to learn so much more, but I mean, just what I have learned
• 41:26
  about even just the, you know, gut brain access and, and just
• 41:28
  everything they like the, the power that just is, it's pretty
• 41:31
  incredible just just learning about some of that stuff.
• 41:34
  So thank you for for clarifying that and just just everything
• 41:38
  you've given through this, I think it's been so real and
• 41:41
  vulnerable kind of the way you're presenting it.
• 41:43
  And I'm just just grateful for the way you've approached this
• 41:46
  conversation and the way you approach your coaching.
• 41:50
  Well, it's, it's deeply personal to me.
• 41:52
  It's I love what I do. The joke I make is more that,
• 41:55
  you know, adult police are going to knock on my door and arrest
• 41:58
  me for having too much fun at work.
• 42:00
  But I genuinely believe that people have gifts to give the
• 42:02
  world, which is why I was so lucky to work with you.
• 42:05
  It's like, I believe I know you have gifts to give the world and
• 42:08
  you're giving them to the world when you're doing this and the
• 42:11
  world needs those gifts, right? So I just feel so lucky that I
• 42:14
  got to be here and talk more with you and share my
• 42:17
  perspective. So thank you so much for having
• 42:18
  me. Yeah, no, thank you.
• 42:20
  Thank and thank you for your impact.
• 42:21
  And if anybody did want to, you know, learn more from you,
• 42:25
  learn, learn about what you're doing or work with you as a
• 42:27
  coach, like where, where should they go?
• 42:29
  They. Can go to my website
• 42:31
  folderleadership.com. I'm on Instagram at
• 42:33
  holderleadership or you can find me on LinkedIn, Miranda Holder.
• 42:37
  And you can also just shoot me an e-mail
• 42:38
  miranda@holderleadership.com and I'd love to hear from you.
• 42:41
  I love one of the best parts of my job, even as I'm a an
• 42:46
  introvert is meeting new people and learning things.
• 42:49
  And I I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts and
• 42:53
  wishing I could ask the guest question.
• 42:55
  If this brings up questions for you, don't hesitate, don't be
• 42:57
  shy. I'd love to talk to you.
• 42:59
  That's awesome, right? Thank you so much.
• 43:00
  Thank you so much, John.