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Offense vs Cowboys Part 1 · Filmstudy - Baltimore Ravens Talk

0:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, folks.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the episode of Film Study.
0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Ken McCusik and it is our pleasure to talk about the offense from that big win in Rio.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Today, joining me to do that is my good friend and one of the really great soundmines in analyzing the NFL Gordon McGinnis, formerly a PFF.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're kind of now, again, with PFF in a way, right, affiliate?
0:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a little bit.
0:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm doing some freelance and some consultant work there.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So it did a bit right in I just offered some some guidance to them, but no longer having to do any management, which is quite quite nice for a change after middle management for about five or six years.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to get a little break.
0:38
[SPEAKER_01]: A big loss, certainly for PFF, we understand they've had some other big losses recently.
0:42
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't need to go into all that, but I'm glad to hear that you're still there at least to help turn the wheel for them a little bit in terms of some elements of how they score things and whatnot.
0:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, the Ravens win this thriller in Rio, another game where they kind of lose snap count off and start there.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like it when the team is less grindy as they have been this year, but it's hard to argue with the overall success rate, the points for drive, some of those elements, I just think they're allowing too many opposing offensive snaps basically because of their lack of grinding this.
1:21
[SPEAKER_00]: potentially a symptom of, like, just the offense coming together.
1:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, Declan Doyle, I think spoken a lot about wanting to chase explosives and the negative with chasing explosives is if you mess on some of them.
1:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you have quick drives that give the boss right back to the other team and you can easily have two or three drives in a row or you give the ball back quickly.
1:43
[SPEAKER_00]: The other team are able to to to grind the crock clock a little bit there.
1:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the downside of trying that and it's one of those ones that
1:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder if as the season goes on and they get more and more comfortable in this offense if we'll start to see less of that and just you know the more explosive plays coming in.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very much a lot of those choices are made on first down and whether you run or pass, if you, you know, the Ravens overall, I mean, it ran the ball 38 times, they passed a 20, that's a, that would make you 1950s football fan happy, you know, in terms of of what they did, you know, for the team that has the greatest running game in the history of the national football league, that's what we, you know, the Ravens want in a lot of ways.
2:20
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some untested components to that with this offensive line that I think are different,
2:28
[SPEAKER_01]: route for that.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is something that if you make those decisions on first down on second and medium and short when you're trying to decide, do I go for a first down or do I go for an explosive at that point?
2:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, third down, everybody's got the same objective.
2:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like it's a hidden thing.
2:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, you want to get to the sticks.
2:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, you know, in a lot of ways anyway, I think that needs to be a bigger focal point of how the
2:58
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I thought good game management for the Ravens in this one, which is one of the big things, couple fourth and one failure is but definitely the right call, and either in either case to go for it.
3:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, definitely the right decision, just let me talk about a little bit later on, not necessarily the best play goal in those situations decision to go excellent, not necessarily the right the right use of it.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I think once they got down to
3:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, with you, with you entirely on that, we will certainly spend some time on that.
3:26
[SPEAKER_01]: They move the ball very effectively after being down-tended off-thing, which happened due to a couple of things, I guess.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They missed a fourth and one on the second drive, but on the first drive, they missed a pass that we want to kind of go through some of the missed passes, but you know, who drives they certainly could have extended to more, but just what you're talking about, that
3:46
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they create these easy three and out and a four and out to give two long drives to start the game to the Cowboys and attend nothing.
3:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll eat this by then.
3:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it was the start of the game.
4:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Felt like it was gonna potentially be quite a frustrating afternoon with just the way they gave the ball back so quickly and the way they co-avasion of the ball.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess ultimately the story of the day was the they found enough of the explosives to to get over in the end on both sides of the ball actually.
4:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we found enough of it.
4:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, big defensive place.
4:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
4:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
4:26
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked a little bit about that.
4:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is I'd like to get your opinion on this and see maybe how PFF graded it.
4:32
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of what I believe to be very revisionist history about the third and five play where press got through the ball out of bounds.
4:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw it as more of a case where very fortunately on that play, Tavius Robinson got one of his few really effective bull pressures, got right under the pads of the new right tackle product gyms.
4:52
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just played that one snap.
4:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all he did.
4:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Got right under his pads, pushed him right back into the cone.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was, there was no real opportunity for there for press got to get off a good pass.
5:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't have said, the ball was already out.
5:05
[SPEAKER_01]: when that space developed that a lot of people seem to be pointing to and saying, well, wait a minute, yet all this space you could have found him right there.
5:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he could have seen that breaking open and I think, you know, he should have felt risk of both a sack or a potential inter-game ending interception by Wiggins right on that sideline if he had thrown at when they were right atop of each other.
5:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's kind of revisionist to say that always wide open, he just missed a throw that's our $60 million quarterback, you know, screw in us again.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I definitely, I definitely think this revision is the, the pressure was there.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know specifically how it was graded to the PFF, but like I, I didn't the same week as you, I don't, I don't press call it a good game all to ultimately overall.
5:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't really blame them too much for that one.
5:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
5:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You seem to be very upset.
5:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's at the, you know, an unbelievable toss of the garbage can you probably saw is like 20, 20, 25 yards.
5:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's really impressive.
6:01
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, now, in putting together this show, wanted to talk with this about this with Gordon because he's familiar with what PFF's got behind the curtain there.
6:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And oftentimes, Lamar Jackson won't come out with a particularly great grade from PFF.
6:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And it can be because some throws get left on the field.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Even in a game like this, he went 15 of 20, 186 yards as I certainly not the wrong way that didn't get sacked, he didn't turn the ball over.
6:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Whole bunch of good in that.
6:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Whole bunch of give me more of that, you want.
6:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But on the other hand, those five misses were basically all throws you left on the field, which was kind of weird in the situation, even a couple of penalties were throws you left on the field, I thought.
6:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
6:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is like when we can talk through the plays and then talk about like the way the PFF, like passing great works or quarterback grades in particular,
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: because they throw the bottles off and as they do on like a single game sample like three four plays swing the grade quite considerably and quite often you find it's plays that either don't count because they get nullified by penalty that is nothing to do with the situation for the quarterback or its situations like this where it's a small number of plays
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's kind of outsized by an end of game scenario type thing.
7:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've all remember the end of game scenario and it's like, oh, it's the greatest game of all time because of how this ended and they forget the little messes in between because the end and actually was quite positive.
7:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, and the end was on a great pass.
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But just I think it's just the fact that Ravens won at all.
7:40
[SPEAKER_01]: They won 13431 and Lamar won 15 if 20.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You see 136.7 for a rating you of what do we have to complain about?
7:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll go through what we have to complain about.
7:50
[SPEAKER_01]: The very first drive of the game, we had a big overthrow to Andrews.
7:53
[SPEAKER_01]: There was pressure on that play.
7:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not entirely Jackson's fault, but Jackson thrives under pressure generally.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: He overthrew it.
8:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It looked like it was about a 30 yard play.
8:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the Andrews from what I can tell that was a safety over there who could have made on play on them at some point would have been a tough, a tough easy tackle.
8:11
[SPEAKER_01]: 30 yards seem like a reasonable number that you might have gotten on that play.
8:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's the, it's the type of play that Lamar quite regularly makes.
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that the pressure definitely had an impact there.
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: but we've seen Lamar numerous times get his feet set and make that throw and he just didn't on this plate.
8:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't, it was a great, it was a great site read.
8:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It was an extended play, it was a site read.
8:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So Lamar saw the route already break open, by the way, we have not seen Andrews break open like that much this year.
8:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was a really nice sign, even though he didn't make the catch on this play, that was he was wide open and it was great wiggle
8:48
[SPEAKER_01]: in beginning his secondary route that did it he really lost the linebacker between level two and three and then all of a sudden he's wide open as a linebacker takes a peek back into the back field I believe so great play great play there but of course then they punted immediately because of that that's a very high cost obviously between completing that pass and not you're probably looking at 3.5 or 4 expected points in
9:19
[SPEAKER_00]: down in Destin twice, and how many yards it would have got?
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, probably, I asked something in that range.
9:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
9:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And, okay, then we go to Q2, you know, low throw to Andrews.
9:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a case where Laura just under through the ball dramatically.
9:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really one of a few bad passes of the game.
9:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But he threw it low, Andrews was not contested about seven yards right over the middle on a crossing pattern.
9:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the coverage was off enough of him that I would call it not contested anyway.
9:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't end up mattering because they scored a TD two plays later.
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So they got a they got a long pass interference play that took them to the four yard line and the Derek Henry ran it in off a direct snap.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So it didn't matter, but it didn't matter because you know, you lose those plays.
10:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You you lose them for good.
10:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's that.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: that sequence, everyone forgets that law through, because of the passenger interference the next play, New Score Touched, and all of a sudden that bad through didn't happen, because it doesn't count in fact, it'll be as to what happens, and it's just when you go back to look at the game and you realize there's a couple of messes there that it feels a bit more relevant again.
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we mentioned the past interference, maybe we just take a little sidebar on this, even though it's not one of the five throws that I leave it at separately,
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: A symptomatic of a problem, the Ravens have had all summer, and basically the march action and a lot with Tez Walker last year is he doesn't really seem to well calibrate it on how much he can overthrow the defense on a past-to-tez Walker, and he's coming in short just consistently on him, a rarely, rarely, rarely, rarely overthrows him.
11:01
[SPEAKER_01]: For a couple of years ago, 23 really was the year of a lot of baitmen overthrows.
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know this this has been a year of just tremendous number of walker underthrows and last year was two since it's an outie game I remember But this this this summer has been terrible for it a camp and then this game he underthrew him twice on important passes and yeah sure it ended up being a pass interferes got's great But if you throw that ball you know in stridey at about 14 more yards to work with to the back of the end, so that's clearly enough for
11:31
[SPEAKER_01]: him to work under that ball and walkers fly and pass the defense on at that point so it wasn't a question of a catch in my pay.
11:39
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, if it's a bad throw there, that's a touchdown.
11:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Quite comfortable.
11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Does Lamar get a negative grade on a play like that where he's bailed out by a pass interference call?
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You should do.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So we, we affectionately for some other Ravens PFF history, which might be to us because I have to stay at the Flacco.
11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Steve Valesville was talking about today or Dean of the Social Day and Joe Flacco had a lot of them.
12:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, it's not, it's definitely not skill to underthrew, right?
12:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You're, you're trying to throw a different place, but it probably
12:18
[SPEAKER_00]: there's something to put in the ball in a place that a defensive back.
12:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The really difficult thing, I think, for defensive backs, on plays like that, is that you are so focused on making sure you're tracking the idea and field.
12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you are in trail technique or if you lose a little bit and you get caught behind them, then
12:38
[SPEAKER_00]: you don't really get the same opportunity to turn and see the ball.
12:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of things you're not going to see it.
12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first instance of you know what about is when the receiver stops and comes towards you.
12:48
[SPEAKER_00]: The passenger interferes there and isn't even necessarily you
12:52
[SPEAKER_00]: tackle the play or anything.
12:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just to play our stops and you are running through 40 yards and momentum and feeling you're going to take him out at that point.
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a to very difficult playing for defensive backs to deal with.
13:02
[SPEAKER_01]: The way I thought about it, there's those opportunities with Tori Smith pretty much happened on Zoblok left naked boot right plays where he would be working a levels concept 1, 2, 3.
13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Flacco, because he's a non-mobile quarterback, never drew the same as tension from that edge defender on that side who would be the one guy who can get downhill, get in his face, make it difficult for Flacco to throw that ball.
13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And it became tired after a while in the room, so he'm not as good at it.
13:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you have a fast receiver running the vertical on that side, it's just unfair.
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what the Ravens have with Walker, and they had with Tori Smith, way back in the day, was the ability to just fly by defenders.
13:41
[SPEAKER_01]: The Fedor has two choices.
13:42
[SPEAKER_01]: He can kind of make his mistake early or he can make his mistake late.
13:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And it sometimes is better, you know, you're getting beat, you'd be a better hold early and just try and get a five yard penalty out of it instead of a faster interference.
13:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so then we saw this was in the quarter two about five minutes left.
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Flyers dropped a third and six pass.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Flyers had a great year, obviously, you know, he's only run 25 routes all year and he's got 234 yards, which is a ridiculous ratio.
14:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But he dropped this pass on third and six, which cost the Ravens a significant number of points, because if they convert that, they're down around the five yard line.
14:17
[SPEAKER_01]: looked to me that it was going to be converted.
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It might have been close, which might have been a tougher fourth down decision was coming up with one.
14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But look to me like he's probably going to convert it there.
14:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I feel I felt the same.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to think
14:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in my head at the time it looked like more of like a kind of concentration drop that you just didn't quite like maybe thinking about trying to go for like trying to convey to make sure he gets over the line.
14:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But really probably flowers only mistake of the game from a from a catch and perspective anyway.
14:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Andrew two flags, you know, that power certainly did plenty of things.
14:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not, we're not, none of these players are we tried to beat on.
14:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just saying there were throws left on the field there.
14:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And then a Q3-9-16, the Ravens have a third, and I think 14 on the play, and Lamar runs around the pocket.
15:06
[SPEAKER_01]: He scrambles forward.
15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the time of the throw there was not pressure.
15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: He escaped pressure earlier on that play.
15:11
[SPEAKER_01]: through a long bomb up the left side line to Walker and Walker was ready to either take it further to the left or take it up field could have done either way could attract the ball in either direction I think.
15:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And Lamar again throws it short and gets Walker caught from behind and another PD on that play that was unnecessary and that wasn't a penalty unfortunately that time.
15:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and similar, similar situation just not making me throw.
15:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to
15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: find out like is a rap thing between them like do the more chemistry or is it you know just something like a lack of trust because it feels like there is like a little bit of a consistent thing there with with Tez Walker and him now.
15:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So, a lack of trust has typically manifested itself with overthrown from Lamar.
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I went back to the Bateman thing in 23 as he was overthrowning Bateman consistently.
16:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not got the, you know, the blocker speed is not like framed up in Lamar's, you know, throwing mechanics in the same, you know what I'm thinking?
16:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the real quick word throwing mechanics, but he's in his,
16:19
[SPEAKER_01]: where he thinks Walker is going to be at the time the bulk gets there.
16:22
[SPEAKER_01]: He just doesn't have it.
16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Matt that is head right now.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't play it together all the time.
16:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So like this preseason, sorry, not this preseason.
16:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This preseason Walker was actually playing for some and Lamar wasn't, but in camp, Walker is not typically a guy who'd played with the ones.
16:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And Lane kind of took that role from him as a that white receiver three.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, flowers and beatmen are ahead of him.
16:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Now there was some throwing to Walker when those guys missed time.
16:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But it,
16:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Walker's time actually with Lamar has been fairly limited and we saw a lot of it both with Huntley and with Lamar of under throws this whole summer really frustrating to see live.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that.
17:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine.
17:04
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
17:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we had Q4 138.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: This was right before the play before the touchdown past a hybner.
17:10
[SPEAKER_01]: He overthrew Bateman.
17:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He had space to lead him to the theory for a left of the NZ JJ Watts even picking on him for that one.
17:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe it was JJ
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you had you all that mentioned it and it was the touch damage there to be thrown, he just doesn't just doesn't make the throw thankfully they make up for it like right afterwards, but that's one that had the result not gone the way that's that's one that you would look back and think that the opportunity was right there.
17:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, what kind of a relativeize this for me, you know what happened on the next plane, very impressive, double pump, under pressure, waits for basically manipulating the lineback, or hypner doesn't even move that much, and then it gets to all the hypner for the touchdown, relativize that to the miss of baitmen on the previous plane in terms of like what kind of greed level there might be in each of those two.
18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Mr. Bateman would have been like a low level, low level, low level downgrade.
18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The touchdown pass would have been one of the first two, and it comes down to how much credit he's given for the manipulation that opens up.
18:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And it depends.
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: or on a kind of number of situations like how I don't know specifically what that one was, like how much is so that he has manipulated the defense versus allowing backers just bet on something he shouldn't have bet on effectively, like how much is it him doing that.
18:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So that might have got a higher grade, I don't know that's specific for that one, but that was definitely nice to see the way he makes the, and it's something I've seen him doing the like little red zone before, where he gets down and he can,
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Not just for this lags, but uses arm to connect with the defense just to freeze guys enough just to free up a little bit more space.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.
19:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we from a long time, we'll never had an intersection in the red zone and then that got broken in the unfortunately the playoff game at Buffalo of course.
19:10
[SPEAKER_01]: but the in 2020, but he had a wonderful ability to move left to right and it didn't even really seem to matter that he was giving away half the field a lot of the time and he could even throw back across his body because he's the marchax and he could do whatever he wants.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was finding ways to throw a laser to somebody as opposed to all of the silliness with fades.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You see a lot of other quarterbacks, right?
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we saw Dallas wasted a down, wasted a play, trying to throw
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has risk associated with it and it's also just not a very good high percentage chance to get to yards right there.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the type of play that if you, if you're accurate with it, it's a low percentage play and if you're inaccurate with it, it's potentially disaster.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You leave it a little bit to inside and it's very, like it's more likely to be picked.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you put it at the spot where the receiver has to high point to it.
20:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, to high point to keep it away from the defense of back angios feet and bones, just don't, I hate to as a bully, like I, and I think the little more thing probably.
20:20
[SPEAKER_00]: does come down a lot to the legs because I think as legs or the threat of his legs, just puts that horizontal stress on the defense is in particular the middle part of the defense.
20:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So that kind of allows him to do those things, but the Ravens are just not in a spot where they need to try and force those things.
20:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the
20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I want to say it was at me in the games, the SPN analyst, like for years that was our thing on social media, it was like the worst play in football.
20:48
[SPEAKER_00]: You're at the two to three yard blind, just throwing a fade in the end, so it's just not worth it.
20:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think a lot of people are right there with her on that one night.
20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think she's the originator of that, but
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, mint, mint is great.
21:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That's anything.
21:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I thought there were lots of good common threads in what Lamar did, by the way, the, his receivers got excellent separation.
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's for starters, because he did throw to any, I mean, okay, I think PFF had them for two contested catches.
21:15
[SPEAKER_01]: One of them was of Lamar's, you know, construct because he underthrew the ball to walker and that ended up becoming a contested catch.
21:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other one was the Chris Moore touchdown, which I'm not even really sure I agree with as it being a contested catch, but what did you think about that?
21:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those ones that there's possibly enough contact that it's classes contested, but it's not.
21:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like the traditional way you think and contested is, like the Anquambal, going up and winning the ball type of effect, type of situation, or someone coming back to the ball.
21:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more one of those ones that's contested because there's a player who could in the player who could try and force the ball, force the ball out effectively.
22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: was on that one.
22:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It did not think that he was reaching across the body for the ball, but it might have been that he was in position where it could have been, I guess, but I mean, if you go 20 passes and that's the closest you come to a contested ball that should have been contested.
22:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Forgetting, setting aside the walker one for a moment.
22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty damn good and a great separation.
22:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Lamar saw the field extremely well in this game.
22:26
[SPEAKER_01]: He moved around, he picked targets who were not contested.
22:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's separation.
22:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure, that's, you know, it's, it's flowers.
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beatmen, it's, it's all those guys do.
22:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Walker doing their thing.
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It gives separation.
22:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also Lamar finding the separated player and making him the target.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot about Lamar not just, not just that's getting really fairly far.
22:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a really encouraging for how he's met and within this offense and the passing in.
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, are you one of the people who believes this is a well set up for an MVP year for Lamar Jackson or do you think that, you know, we're already in the early part of the season and there's too much competition from players like Praurty and whatnot around the league that might make it difficult?
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's out for them.
23:15
[SPEAKER_00]: The question will be, how does the offensive lane pulled up?
23:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it really just comes down and think to like the division is going to be incredibly competitive.
23:26
[SPEAKER_00]: If if they don't win division then it's very unlikely that you went to MVP because that's just traditionally how it goes.
23:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just it's not quite an external factor but it's like a kind of a Jason factor and whether you'll be in the race but it has performance over the first three games this season.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I think very much has him in the in the conversation.
23:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right, good to hear.
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And now, talk about maybe Lamar's passing score in this game and just why, you know, what kind of downgraded would he get for the five plays we talked about?
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you've covered that enough or do you feel like you already have?
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, that's fine, I can, yes, so that's it.
24:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those ones where I think of the five-ing completions he has in this game.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Four are
24:13
[SPEAKER_00]: negative plays by him.
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're not dangerous.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not risk and turnovers.
24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're just small downgrades.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one of the plays that is not included in the air is probably downgrade as well.
24:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So that the defensive pattern of yours to Ted Walker, that's probably it's a downgrade.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't take this specific grade on because it's because it's under
24:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got on like a 201, it's not quite, it's a little bit more than 21, so if there were other panels in there, but roughly 20-ish pattern attempts, you've got probably six downgrades in there.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also not a big high volume pattern game.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So because you've got six downgrades, I'm a seven minute six.
25:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And then on the other plays, it's not like there were a lot of big throws down field that I like you to grab big grades that kind of boost it back up again.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And because it was only another 15 pass attempts, there's less volume to rack up the small pose of the goes up so it's just one of those ones where it winds up being like a relatively like a good solid score rather than anything.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: good or bad, but it's just one of the ones that's like, it's a sample size issue.
25:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you few extrapolate, if you are this exact passenger over the course of the season, it's passively probably something like the high 80s because it's just like, oh sure, of course, yeah, it's like, you know, efficient over the course of the whole thing.
25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But in a single game sample, it's like, yeah, it's fine.
25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a good game.
26:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, and he had a couple of the couple that I explained to Lamar has, but then it gets just just way to a little bit and it's a small sample.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Without giving away stuff, you're not supposed to give away.
26:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's still the plus two to minus two systems still underlies those places you're counting.
26:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're talking about a small downgrade, you're talking about probably a minus 0.5, would he have had some minus 0.1s and I'm sorry, minus 1s in there as well?
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he did.
26:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there was any minus 1s.
26:28
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... like anything that's turned over worthy uh... i think there may be situations where it could be like uh... like a white open mess and do you know i'd uh... game crackle situation or something like that but not very rare situations if there are any but yeah i'm pretty certain i've been downgraded he had this game was probably just the minus point five okay and in terms of is plus throws plus one on the twenty seven yarder maybe at the end as a as a as a as a call backer
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was definitely one plus one in there and it was probably the last one, just because given the game situation is well in the, the velocity and everything on the throw to put it in there.
27:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
27:03
[SPEAKER_01]: The other component, then you're, you're kind of hinted twice now in the last minute about leverage being a part of that.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not know that about PFF.
27:12
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys really include game situation in terms of a relative grading.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So if, if I have two different plays and one is made when the score is 30
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's the same throw, could it be a different grade?
27:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is where my lack of experience in the last couple of years is a greater shows.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: early on I was graded and that was very much how we did it.
27:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily know if that's still the case now.
27:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it now might be just kind of like normalized for situation, but it's certainly used to be just like whatever's in situation.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Which I don't mind, it may still be that way.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't really have any great issue with if it's in a key situation at
28:03
[SPEAKER_01]: If I were to make my PSF suggestion box, which I've never found exactly where that is, for all my slips to go into, my notion on that would be, great as an individual play as a standalone play regardless of the score, and then apply leverage to it at a later time, and then you can try a different number of leverage rules that you would want to put on it.
28:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I understand that.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's very interesting stuff here.
28:27
[SPEAKER_01]: The Lamar ended up, I think, with a 72 passing grade for the people in B.A.A.
28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: 72.
28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you talking about?
28:33
[SPEAKER_01]: The great game he had and whatnot, but good reasoning there in terms of what's going on there.
28:38
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a very below, not a very below, but a somewhat below average opportunity set.
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: As I call it, you know, it was the ATS B.O.Q.'
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: 's in pressure, a number of three second pockets he had.
28:48
[SPEAKER_01]: was a little bit under what you'd expect for a game.
28:52
[SPEAKER_01]: He outperformed his opportunity set by about 73 yards or about 3.7 yards per play, which is fantastic.
28:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So from that perspective, I'd say it was good, and you know, you can still do that and still leave plays on the field is fairly remarkable.
29:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, there's a law in the middle of it.
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of old Mars game that feels like it's incredibly affection, and this feels like it kind of highlights that step by step.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, the other thing I really wanted to talk about with you from this game Gordon is the use of Derek Henry in short yardage.
29:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's it's a it's a it's basically come down to that in short yardage that the Raven seemed to have.
29:33
[SPEAKER_01]: some things they want to do under Doyle that are maybe a little bit different than they did under Roman for sure.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they were much more likely to keep to use read option with Roman.
29:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if it was a half-field read out of pistol or it was a full field read out of sidecar,
29:53
[SPEAKER_01]: be trying to maintain that option with Lamar Jackson, I think that's kind of been lost.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: The first of all, direct staff to Derek Henry immediately takes that option away of the thing.
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how do you feel about that?
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And does that figure in anything PFF would be doing or thinking about the way they great a game?
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't impact the great because you're just great in the
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: the actual play itself, so you're great in how players are trying to defend it and what the offense is trying to do.
30:25
[SPEAKER_00]: This is probably my strongest negative and decland oil so far and I'm overwhelmed with positive.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a ton that I love by what he's done so far.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like some of the usage of data canary.
30:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Ignores the fact that the Ravens don't have an offensive lane that's close to what he had as the offensive coordinator, although not the play collar and Chicago.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: This offensive lane is not good enough to consistently run the ball without any kind of misdirection with will are you can you can't give defenses the opportunity to get the they have too many players who.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: just weren't good enough for unblockers and haven't been good enough for unblockers in short yarded situations.
31:12
[SPEAKER_00]: In more neutral situations, whether they can get out on outside zone plays that allow them to get out into space and the defense isn't necessarily selling out for the run, it's easier and you can then get some of those things, but they don't have enough good
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you entirely.
31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's basically half the story.
31:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It is that I want to say it differently because Lamar Jackson, when you when the ball is in Lamar Jackson's hand, the team always has two possible options in terms of how they how they
31:54
[SPEAKER_01]: let the play roll out.
31:55
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, Lamar has two options, put it that way.
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: He's always got run in pass.
32:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And when he's got in the ball in his hand and he's in the mesh point, he's got read or take himself.
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And he could even have a triple option if you could run if you could pass off that, if it were, you know, fourth and one situation Lamar realizes what's going on, he could actually convert a
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: boot of his own into a run.
32:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I just absolutely, I don't like two things about the offense.
32:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one is turn your back play action takes the readability away from Lamar because that's, you're, you're, you're, you're necessarily, you've, you've got your back turn and you're, you're basically hoping that the defense misreads the play, but you're not allowing Lamar to read leverage.
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I've said many times in the show,
32:41
[SPEAKER_01]: almost in the history of American sports, you know, beer very sandals and gale sails are up there and you toss in Muhammad Ali in the 60s, you know, his ability to slip a punch was unbelievable, but the Lamar is right there and if your offense is designed to turn your back on the defense, you are taking away one of the greatest gifts that Lamar Jackson brings to Baltimore Ravens.
33:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And similarly, you know, taking away the option to read a defender at all forward facing is taking away an option of two possible plays that you could use to potentially beat that defense out, allowing the duty offense to run themselves out of position.
33:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, that's my soap box on that topic.
33:24
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's fair.
33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah, I was, I was on one five point seven
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And we think one of the questions they asked me was about Lamar Jackson designed runs.
33:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to see it more for one on the single place apples.
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes life difficult because they have to focus on it.
33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But just over the course of the game, I think it is mentally exhausted for late backers and particular books, offenders, to have to worry about Lamar Jackson and it can be in its.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have them worry about it,
34:02
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 times over the course of a game, but the time you get in the fourth quarter, that's just an exhausting thing to have to think about if the game is online, at any point, in its short yardage and you're having to queue in that.
34:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it naturally, if you give defenses that if you force them to be watching our option, then that helps give the offensive line more leverage and helps open up a little bit more space for Derek Henry.
34:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And in short yardage, Derek Henry doesn't need a ton of space.
34:30
[SPEAKER_00]: just needs a little bit of a crease and I think that's, I think that's a way to counteract the issues in the offensive lane in terms of performance, but also potentially now that haven't to get the end grease as well.
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's a great point.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a really great point.
34:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that one of the things that Mitcher has talked about this year is they want to win the pre-snap interval.
34:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So they want to get to the line of scrimmage, want to get off the ball quickly.
34:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a big, big thing of lead furs
35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But they also want to just not give the defense enough time to figure out what's going on.
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go to the line of scrimmage and one of the first things is that running backs inside car, and you know, Lamar Jackson might hand off your first thing as a little crap.
35:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And now he's got to look for keys.
35:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what else is these not thinking about in terms of dropping deep enough to maybe cover that L203 area and somebody crossing the field?
35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, I do think it creates a lot of stress on the defense to show any sort of potential
35:31
[SPEAKER_01]: great point.
35:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we're gonna take a break.
35:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be right back.
35:37
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, we're back.
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess the one other thing we kind of need to touch on is these injuries to the offensive line, where this leave the Ravens for the rest of the season and start with the two center injuries.
35:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess one question is, did the Ravens maybe stumble into the guy who was the right guy all
36:00
[SPEAKER_00]: they might have done.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the only negative I would have for being in this game was that some of the shotgun snaps were a little bit inaccurate, not problematic accurate necessarily, because the Omar seemed to be prepared ready for it.
36:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They were just outside the frame that you could go and get it.
36:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Other than that, he looked very comfortable and poised in the middle of that offensive line.
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be intrigued to see how it looks over the course of the full game because if it does bring Andrew Voor, he's back into the play.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I think the Ravens potentially have two guards, so I think are not particularly good, and then I think that puts quite of a pressure on Van Gogh in the middle of that line to to be the guy in the interior, but I do think that the
36:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he is the most natural patch blocker among the guys they have in the interior and for deal with stuff like stunts and things like that, I think that's probably quite
37:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that will be then the area.
37:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, we saw Gwen honestly have a little bit of followlyitis in terms of not really understanding where to go in terms of a sign that it was, I think Gwen has some physicality issues, but I think that was really the problem with him as a past blocker this year.
37:21
[SPEAKER_01]: More was not knowing who to pick up.
37:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas, I see, I see you nodding up and give you a chance to respond on what if kind of finish a thought about you wanting.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I agree.
37:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's exactly where I go in was a fascinating player when he was on the field this year because as his own rum block or had a lot of really nice blocks, like a great effect for what they've for one, them to do, maybe I've been proven wrong over the course of the season, but on roughly three weeks worth of action.
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: respect for I just don't think he's necessarily an NFL caliber past Walker.
37:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's that's fair enough.
37:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, I was, I hope that we get better because he looked like a fire hydrant past blocking in the preseason, you know, particularly in that game against the Eagles, the very first preseason game looked terrific.
38:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And the Eagles guys were not a bunch of bombs.
38:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there were some guys playing on their second and third group who were pretty good.
38:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I
38:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, that's a pretty impressive showing.
38:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Then they go to the joint practice with Minnesota.
38:21
[SPEAKER_01]: They have that highlight that got sent from practice, which by the way, they tell what people turn off your phones if you're a fan doing this, but they had an unbelievable pancake off the line of scrimmage on Dominique Orange, where he just got under his pads and all of a sudden he's throwing them to the ground at the end of that.
38:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I've disappointed with how far he's fallen off since then in terms of his ability to deliver against starting NFL line, but I guess I really shouldn't be shocked by it, but I'm disappointed.
38:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Go back to something else you said, though.
38:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You talked about the shotgun snaps.
38:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I can pull good and bad from that.
39:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could say, yeah, I agree with you.
39:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There's some low and outside to his things.
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It seemed to be like low and to Lamar's left as you look for it, well, to Lamar's left as you look at him on the behind, which is like standard spot.
39:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe they can correct that, and maybe they can't, hopefully they can.
39:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I loved about him is his snaps are like rifle shots and we saw a win have a lot of trouble with these slow pitch softball snaps in the first couple of weeks.
39:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you know, actually it was really more than week one.
39:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he corrected some of his problems in week two, but you want it comes out firing, you know,
39:30
[SPEAKER_01]: out of a cannon basically.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's a little bit inaccurate.
39:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Lamar's able to handle, it's a little bit low, which maybe had to be more concerned, is that he's going to dribble one back, and it's going to be a big negative play.
39:40
[SPEAKER_01]: But Lamar was able to manage them, and all of a sudden he's got more time to read the field that he had with Gwen, which I really liked.
39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that much more, but it's still to me, it's meaningful.
39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like any time you have, like,
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about how long like the average time to throw as in the NFL, I don't know what Lamar is as specifically this year, but if you remove scrambleds from it, you're talking about like sub three seconds.
40:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you can save like a little bit of a second on the hand, they add something definitely.
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's substantial.
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, there's a lot of keys they read before even you get to the point where Lamar is making a site read on somebody being open from the top of the stem or on his initial route.
40:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think they've done a better job.
40:22
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a good Doyle thing of giving Lamar some good reads off the line of scrimmage.
40:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when there's breakdown, he's still directing second place.
40:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But he had some good reads off the line of scrimmage in this game
40:39
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's talk a little bit about some of the, some of the personnel sets and what are the Ravens are using a lot of 12 and 13 personnel.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: They're number two in the entire league and it's only a thin thin margin there.
40:50
[SPEAKER_01]: But with 12 and 13, yeah, Buffalo is at 55.3% and they're at like 54.9%.
40:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's literally one step difference with, uh, uh, we're bringing the Ravens and
41:06
[SPEAKER_01]: 12 and 13 because they play a ton of 13, but the range is played like a weird combination of pretty much all 13 and almost never 12.
41:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the Rams, schematically, have been a very strange team in that sense.
41:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the Ravens Parasnell hasn't surprised me particularly.
41:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like the way they
41:35
[SPEAKER_00]: way the player entries are played into as well, like in terms of, like how they continue to go with with what you've gone with.
41:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you're saying the injuries to lane and flowers missing time has reduced the amount of 11 that you would have otherwise expected to see if I would think of that.
41:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
41:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.
41:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But then again,
41:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have thought they would have gone even heavier than half-cress mercilessly, the number snaps that he's played.
42:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe that's the case of the so many entry stakes you take you to the point that you just have to have to make it work.
42:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That's probably the strangest thing to me.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't, I'm not really that surprised that they're at 45% 11% L, which is 27th in the National Football League.
42:23
[SPEAKER_01]: the expected increase in eleven personnel because once you take away all the twenty-one twenty-two snaps which is what the ravens do and we're talking about the
42:30
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of the roster position person L groups.
42:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you take the 21 and 22 away, those 10% of all eligible receivers that you eliminate have to go somewhere else.
42:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's only 11, 12 and 13 are really the only other choices for anything to go to.
42:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not like there's a lot of places, but it's really all gone to 12 and 13 as opposed to 11, which is, which is to me is odd.
42:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I definitely, but maybe as the injuries that I've contributed to that, maybe we will see when it gets back and know that they flyers is, I'm getting closer to Phil Health, that might be how that changes.
43:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yep, yep, yep.
43:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about the lack of willingness to commit to grinding, so I don't want to go into that again.
43:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but one way to maybe look at that a little differently is the rate is what three of nine on third down in this game.
43:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not good.
43:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Then they don't want to have that.
43:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not a, you know, division winning or a championship kind of number, but on the other hand, they had 23 first downs in the game.
43:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So they had 20 of those converted on 1st and 2nd acts.
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't convert 3rd and 4th at all.
43:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that if you had your choice by the way here, you'd want every single one of your of your first downs to be converted on 3rd or 4th down.
43:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But okay, let me just say differently.
43:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You take 100% probably on 3rd down because if you never have to go to 4th down, you never have to miss some 4th downs, but whatever 3rd downs, so whatever first downs you got to converting, 3rd down is the optimal place to get them.
44:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you want because you're taking time off the clock as well.
44:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Workplace.
44:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:10
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so they've now had 55 of their 65 first downs on the season, come in for a second down, which is I don't know what the standard would be.
44:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I, it's not a, it's probably not a third of the first downs come on on, you know, first and second down, but my guess is that 55 out of 65 on for a second down.
44:27
[SPEAKER_01]: is ridiculously high.
44:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's, you know, might, might it be, you know, 60% normally coming first or second time?
44:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, quite possibly, but, but I'm just, I'm fear like certain that 55 and a 65 is, is way too high at percentage.
44:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It definitely seems very, very high.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I'm able to look into.
44:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I might see if there's a way to to surface that some
44:59
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, what else we got to talk about here?
45:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see, we talked a little bit about the 38 rushes in the 20 passes, no turnovers, certainly, nothing about the offense that I'm unhappy about at a high level.
45:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, you know, Derek Henry, then, if you go to a little bit lower level, he was 14 out of 16 and successes last week.
45:17
[SPEAKER_01]: which raises season number to 70% and unbelievable number for a running back, by the way.
45:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He was 11 out of 26 this week, so definitely drop back to earth.
45:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Still a 59.1% for the season.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: 11 out of 26 is not a good game, and it's really not a good game for Derek Henry playing with Lamar Jackson.
45:35
[SPEAKER_01]: He should be over 50%.
45:36
[SPEAKER_01]: 14, 15 out of 26.
45:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's a small sample size, but it's just not a good number, and hopefully,
45:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully they do the things that they need to do with keeping the option alive that brings a full fuel tank of deception to this offense coming forward.
45:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and if they're in short-hearted situations and they're not making easier on themselves, then those numbers are going to be less impressive because they're putting themselves in tougher situations.
46:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's a easy thing that they can do to improve upon that a little bit quickly if you want to.
46:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright.
46:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about maybe Jack's in terms of the past rush he faced in this game.
46:23
[SPEAKER_01]: This was they were they're fairly Spartan in terms of what they did anyway, past the ball 20 times.
46:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't an over commitment, but 25% of the rush is going after him with five plus, you know, he's five for 38 on those plays, nothing, nothing spectacular.
46:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The really spectacular was when they used a 4 man rush against to me average 9.4 yards per play.
46:50
[SPEAKER_01]: The Cowboys are a team.
46:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I looked at this and thought that Carson Vincent's matchup against Ezrako and Malik and Lawrence, who didn't end up playing that much by the way.
47:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure how much they're playing him generally this year.
47:03
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the surprise?
47:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought maybe it was Ezrako.
47:08
[SPEAKER_00]: manage an illness coming into the game.
47:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Warmen was managing an illness coming into the game.
47:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been managing something coming into the game and was on like a little bit of a pitch count.
47:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But it could have been that.
47:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of Lawrence, I think, has flashed a little bit, but I don't think it's played like a huge amount of steps.
47:25
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so that could be it certainly.
47:27
[SPEAKER_01]: As Barack was played more and he's been more of a regular contributor for that Dallas defense.
47:31
[SPEAKER_01]: He got hurt late in the game.
47:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But he wasn't particularly offensive.
47:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Effective against Carson Vincent, I didn't think in the game.
47:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know how he greeted by the way.
47:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how, as Barack had greeted.
47:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, obviously, he didn't generate a ton of pressure in the game.
47:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I can check.
47:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I can look out very quickly while we chat through it.
47:55
[SPEAKER_00]: on the morning and what I was doing a lot of the collection for PFF and it's not a grieving process but it's like tracking what the offense and what it does on the play and and it tracks with the numbers you have on the sheet there.
48:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the Cowboys did very well exotic to make life difficult for the women's offense in the in the passing game.
48:18
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of just straightforward rushes, no stunts,
48:24
[SPEAKER_00]: just leave it and I think that's a mistake against the way that's often to line just now because I think it gave them the opportunity to, like, long-power disabled, just read and then make plays.
48:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great point because I really didn't notice any simulated pressures, the whole game, but I'm just looking back here.
48:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I can't have simulated pressure if they're two guys dropped.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: There's one of them.
48:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the incomplete past a beat when we talked about already in the end zone.
48:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That was one of the only simulated, that was the only simulated pressure with two guys dropping.
48:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's very common, obviously.
48:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You drop the end guy off the line of scrimmaging covers, the tight end, or he drops to a shallow zone, not counting individual singles like that.
49:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's a big thing not to do.
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm trying to think back in terms of how many times they've listed it wasn't that many because you almost have to have something that would look like four one on my sheet.
49:16
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a few of those where they either had five guys, they might have had four guys with a lot of screen and dropped one and then bring somebody a lineback or whatever.
49:24
[SPEAKER_01]: They did a little bit of that.
49:26
[SPEAKER_01]: But I wouldn't say they did a bunch of off-ball blitzing in this game.
49:34
[SPEAKER_00]: at a 47.3 pff patch rush grade on you rushed 15 times from 24 pass and snaps, not good numbers.
49:45
[SPEAKER_01]: We see mostly left mostly right in that game.
49:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a small number 15 total, but I don't actually see.
49:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I think from memory, I think he was on the right quite a lot.
49:57
[SPEAKER_01]: He fence the right offensive right.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I think defensive.
50:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he was the one to match up against Vince and was that right.
50:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
50:06
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I think was was happening.
50:07
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
50:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And Malica Lawrence only played five snaps.
50:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that was either either some kind of injury thing or something is escaped in there.
50:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
50:17
[SPEAKER_01]: He looks like the real deal, I'll say.
50:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really buy a name in the draft.
50:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we were little surprised.
50:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe both of us were a little surprised he went as high as he did.
50:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd trapped a 23 overall by the
50:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was some late first round buzz for them.
50:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think even that late for a first round buzz wasn't like 23 high.
50:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of the last couple of picks of the first round.
50:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
50:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Talking a little bit about opportunities said five ample time space opportunities for the mark 25% I mean obviously we're talking small numbers here, but that's not a great number.
50:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it's seven ball out quicks.
50:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I did find on those actually through for 10.7 yards per play on his ball out quicks is pressured eight times and he did miss a couple throws there including the big one to Andrews that we talked about a couple times tonight already went five for eight for 48 yards went pressured.
51:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Still very good.
51:05
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, six point
51:08
[SPEAKER_01]: on the pressured plays, as I define them, the typical average has been about 3.5 over the years I've studied this.
51:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I might need to set a new standard if I find that quarterbacks all over the lead are regular beating the standard.
51:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But for right now, that looks to be about correct, and that's obviously a good, real good game to beat it by two and a half yards.
51:31
[SPEAKER_01]: He also ran the offensive line at a one pressure that was a pressure that would have been charged to Rosengarten, and I'm sure you guys kept it as a pressure to Rosengarten to do those ends up being scrambled, right?
51:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.
51:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that runs well.
51:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you what, we will come back and we'll do the rest of the stuff in part two.
51:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, you know what, no, we've got a couple minutes left.
51:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to finish that some of the running game stuff because I think part two, we got a number of questions to get to.
51:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's keep looking at this.
52:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Raven's still not gotten rushing out Ali on the field yet.
52:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you at all surprised by that?
52:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Should they be trying to get him out there and a game they've got under control?
52:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my big surprise of the Russian Ali made the final roster, I'm always quite surprised by that.
52:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I guess the fact that he made the roster, I'm surprised he hasn't been out there.
52:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, based on my personal view on him, it's not a huge shock.
52:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I do wonder how much of that is when Adam Randall is back, Russian Ali will be off the roster.
52:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, there's no great desire
52:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a weird situation with Randall because he was put on at believe he had either a hang nail or an in-grown toenail.
52:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those two.
52:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something that, you know, you normally think of as being a fake reason why you can't go to work, kind of thing, and well, you can't go to work, because then for four weeks, Randall is the only guy on the Ravens roster who would be a bell cow back.
53:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that they could go to if Henry to go down.
53:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think Ali is that guy the last year, they're probably angling that he might have had to be in the guy because it's not Hill.
53:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he just wouldn't be in a regular first and second down back.
53:14
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't think it fits his game at all.
53:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think just sells really good in his rule.
53:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's not, he's not in every game back in that bill.
53:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the things I've been kind of worried about with Henry this year has been the number miss tackles forced and he hadn't had a lot.
53:30
[SPEAKER_01]: He did have six in this game, so even though he didn't have a real great yards after contact game, and you guys had him at 3.0 yards after contact, confirm for me.
53:39
[SPEAKER_01]: PFF uses first contact of any sort as opposed to first substantial contact because we've had this discussion before and I want to make sure that's true.
53:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, as far as far as I'm as far as I'm aware it's the first contact that someone gets on someone so that could be like an arm as the as the player is going past them right and is it does it really get into my new show with touching the foot or whatever of a player saved if there's a dive or not or that's really the question I I don't want to go too deep into this is particularly if you don't you know just have the answer off the top of your head
54:10
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't have much to remember, I'm pretty certain I was like any contact, so if the contact with the food or anything, it's just like a very binary worded any contact to car basically.
54:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's something to look for, guys.
54:23
[SPEAKER_01]: This is to the viewers here at the listeners, I should say.
54:27
[SPEAKER_01]: When Yako is a tough, very much a definitional statistic, kind of like pressures.
54:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to different people have different expectations of what a pressure means.
54:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And PFF as a different one, I have a different one.
54:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next gen one seems to be very pressure, more pressures are dealt out out of the next gen. Yeah, nothing.
54:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
54:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so still Stanley sitting, I sorry, not Stanley, his Henry is dealing with not that great a mistaq or eight for the year at point 167.
55:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Last year was his worst year of his career since his rookie year at point one four mistaq, his force per carry.
55:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you look back just two years ago he was at point 24, he was causing all kinds of mistaq nurse tackles.
55:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Eddie Faulkner, they got from the Steelers as the running backs coach, is supposed to be the Miss Tackle Force Guru.
55:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was fantastic at creating big numbers for Jalen Warren.
55:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are all I used to PFF, this tackle numbers because I've come to really trust that, Jalen Warren and Gainwell and the other guy, Najihiris, all had tons of his tackles in that office.
55:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
55:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And even like his impact, I think is still being filled out for the impact these have in jail and warrants career.
55:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You do music, you do really good game this weekend in terms of that stuff.
55:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do wonder how much that is just like I don't think Henry's age is a problem for a war of how he plays, but I do wonder if that is impact and the ability to break tackles a little bit.
56:02
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so I'm trying to understand why that would be, you know, still obviously doing great things.
56:09
[SPEAKER_01]: He's getting more level two first tech, first contact opportunities with Omar Jackson.
56:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you get that, you know, the Tennessee Yards before contact number was pathetic.
56:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a big problem with Henry's overall statistics, as he was kind of in decline in his last three years there.
56:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But now he's got a big boost from that.
56:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think that would lead to more mistaquals, but I don't know for sure.
56:30
[SPEAKER_01]: that that's the case.
56:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, is that certainly the standard for linemen is that they'll have many fewer missed tackles that the standards for say safety's corners.
56:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It shouldn't be the same as that.
56:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I also wonder.
56:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So as you were saying, and actually I wondered how it compares to his rate at the start of last year and the start of the year before.
56:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's something that is better to be able to hold whether.
56:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I'd be interested to see how that changes it, but then I do I feel like the builds game are actually last year to have big plays as well as the negative play.
57:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So it might be something to this or it might be.
57:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Could just be at least these noise within the day I guess.
57:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that would be something worth like figuring out if there's a split.
57:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I always don't trust myself entirely when I go into something like that.
57:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll find a split.
57:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, the first five games, he's bad.
57:29
[SPEAKER_01]: The next five games, he's a little bit better.
57:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the final five games, he's fantastic or whatever.
57:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some of that becomes just free chose statistics that I don't really trust entirely.
57:42
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
57:42
[SPEAKER_01]: What else to say about this day?
57:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got the wrong set and ship block number I see in my notes here because it was very small in this game.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: The Ravens and maybe this this is a fact that when you rush for when the opponent rush is for you know that running back is often deciding whether he's going to throw a set or chip block and he just goes out of the pattern when you did the only end they only had
58:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That, adding to all that seems like from what I was charting on Monday morning, that was similar.
58:16
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a little place where the run that's in particular, like when I, if there was a threat, they probably would've been shipping, but because there wasn't any threat there, just went straight into straight into pattern.
58:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I look at past box here.
58:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's take a quick look, Hibner.
58:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You have for three Mark Andrews.
58:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You have for two, Derek Henry.
58:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You have for six.
58:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Durham's Smith five, that would get me to a higher number.
58:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wonder, that would be 16.
58:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it went in the other direction.
58:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Typically, you guys would not include it as a pass blocking staff when he released.
58:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So if he just just a chip, it doesn't even count in the pass blocking them.
58:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but there will also be situations where if they stand, but don't block anyone, like if they stand and then.
59:09
[SPEAKER_00]: the balls out quickly, so that could impact as well.
59:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so they'd be counted as a passblock, even though there's no passblock thrown.
59:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah.
59:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
59:17
[SPEAKER_00]: If they are, they are to passblocked.
59:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Would that include like a zone, sorry, zone block left naked boot right play, where Henry is just executing a fake effectively with most of that off or all of that offensive line, would that be treated as a passbiking snap if for more than rolls on a boot and throws a pass?
59:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Potentially, yeah.
59:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be able to look at the definition of that,
59:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just stuff I'm fascinating about it.
59:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to see a manual of how you guys have taught people how to grade.
59:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to see.
59:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's something you guys would ever would ever share or not.
59:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That part as well, I actually don't even come from.
59:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that comes from like all the other processes because like the rules and stuff are captured within there.
1:00:05
[SPEAKER_00]: At least I think and then it gets, you know, like if from the first chart and someone doesn't have in a block, but then the gradator has like a pressure to the running back then someone goes in and checks and adds it.
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:00:19
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, always a pleasure talking football with you Gordon.
1:00:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to come back and talk at the offensive line.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure a good discussion about that.
1:00:25
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a individual play.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a nice mail bag.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I know people want to ask you some questions here.
1:00:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So this will be this will be kind of some fun to do, but tell us, you know, first of all, where can you find your work online, what should you're going to now and what project are you involved in?
1:00:46
[SPEAKER_00]: three posts a week that are basically just designed to be consumed in like five minutes.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like quick, email bill and's able to do like an immediate reaction or a close to immediate reaction.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Some days would get in and then a preview and then just having like a a start of the week for something that interests me.
1:01:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And then yeah, I'm doing a bunch of stuff back at PFF just now.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm responsible for offensive line quarterback and way to see the rankings every week.
1:01:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my first big move on quarterback rankings, this we can put Patrick with a home back to the top and moved one more up to number two.
1:01:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Alan moved down to three or four, where is he because he was a substance?
1:01:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Alan went to four.
1:01:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought it was a three.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I can't specifically remember there.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I
1:01:38
[SPEAKER_00]: From what we've seen in the first couple weeks in Patrick McCormack, I regret and believe that him and the chief self-ence might be back to where it was before.
1:01:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a bummer indeed.
1:01:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So it looks like the chargers are not going to give them a threat.
1:01:50
[SPEAKER_01]: They want in the west, but they could be the Broncos.
1:01:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an impressive win over the Rams for them to come back.
1:01:57
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, outstanding, always to talk to you, of course.
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Other folks out there, please use Film Study Mailbag at gmail.com for your questions.
1:02:03
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to them and get them to the appropriate show.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Moreyena is sorting those out in a way.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_01]: that they're not going to get lost now.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think we've really had a problem with that, but if we would have had a problem that would have been when they were used and coming in under various methods, and it would have been my fault.
1:02:18
[SPEAKER_01]: She does a great job with it, and so you'll be sure to have your question answered at some point.
1:02:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Gordon, thanks again for coming on.
1:02:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much for an all-off on.
1:02:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll talk to you next time on Film Study.