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Minkie Spiro on Directing Great Actors and Creative Collaboration · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, award-winning film and television director Minki Spiro likes to tell big stories.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Her critically acclaimed body of work only proves her innate versatility to create cinematic masterpieces.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: One of her latest projects to hit the screen is All Her Fault.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: This show has become a global sensation, beating all records for the platform with over 2 billion hits in the first week.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: This mystery thriller stars Australian Sarah Snook in her first TV role since Succession and also stars Dakota Fanning, Michael Pina, and Jake Lacey.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you haven't seen her latest incredible project, The Five Star Weekend, which premiered this week, the drama follows Holly Shaw, a widowed food author, played by Jennifer Garner, who hosts a Nantucket getaway with four friends from different life stages after a devastating loss.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: The series explores grief, friendship, and personal growth against a coastal backdrop.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great show, and it's got a few twists and turns.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Minky's worked with a plethora of big names, including Dame Maggie Smith on Downtown Abbey, Sam Rockwell, and Michelle Williams.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: She calls the shots, but it doesn't faze her.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: This diminutive director reflects she was impressed by Winona Ryder, who she also worked with.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very thrilled to have Minkie, who's been quite a busy woman, joining us on the What I've Learned podcast to discuss what it takes to produce and direct stories that change the way we see the world.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Minky, welcome to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thrilled to have you here.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: You've been one busy woman.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to be here.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you have taken on quite the challenge.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: You have become a producer, a director, and you are a storyteller with an extraordinary backdrop.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: That the amount of people that you have worked with of note, what is it that drove you into this space and how hard was it to climb this ladder?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because right now you're pretty at the top of it, in my opinion, in terms of what you've achieved and what you're doing.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's a tough space to be a director.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I like I I never I never really look at who I am, what I am, and where I am in my career.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just keep doing what I love doing.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if people respond, that's fantastic.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it always kind of makes me smile, but also surprises me when people say, Oh, you're doing really well.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I don't ever stop to kind of because that's not in my DNA.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you know, don't really like to.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess the Americ the the Australians, I love their expression that the tall poppy syndrome, which I've never had.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: My family brought me up in a very humble way, and and and I continue to be that way.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But but you know, I I've never known it any other way.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a woman, I come from a family of academics, so nobody was in the entertainment industry, but it just felt like my calling when I became a photographer and found that I really responded to and seemed to gravitate to listening to stories and just immersing myself in every waf and stray.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I no judgment, just listening to people's stories and engaging in people.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd be at the bus stop waiting for a bus, and somebody would start talking to me.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my mum was the same, people just would chat to her no matter where she was in the supermarket or the you know, on the underground.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess I I I grew up in a world where storytelling was just part and parcel.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was one of nine children, and my mum was a lecturer at Oxford University, and she would always bring students home, especially international students that didn't, or people that weren't living in their original hometown, and she would bring them for dinners, or I'm Jewish, she'd bring them to Jewish festivals, they didn't have to be Jewish.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we were just constantly surrounded by by what at first instance was a stranger but became a known figure in our homes.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's very interesting what you say because fundamentally there are two things that resonate there.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: One is humility, which obviously is a paramount part of the way you grew up, but also learning to storytell, but also to listen to stories.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And being one of nine, I'm sure you had to learn to listen.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was no you all ended up somehow without labeling it, having your own roles.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was deemed the peacemaker and was always untangling knots between siblings or between parents and siblings, and unbeknownst to me, it became the best foundation for how to behave on set or how I behave on set, which is constantly to just create a happy, harmonious environment where people can put their best foot forward and really create and be and be seen.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that is a skill in itself.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, being a director and a producer, and obviously I've done some of that myself, it does require humility.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be able to step back, not get too immersed in completely your own vision.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: You have to also listen as you've described.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that is something that you've honed over time, or do you think it is just innate from as you say when you grew up, that was something that was part of your familial environment?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as a creative person, I've learned that through time and experience.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think when you go to art school and you do your first degree and then your second degree, and you you are an artist, you feel like an artist, you you're a creator.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you soon learn when you come into the industry that this is a team sport, and it's not your way or the high, you know, my way or the highway.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: It it's very much a collaborative process, and there are people higher up in the hierarchy that may not be the creatives, but they ultimately hold the purse strings.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to know how to navigate so many different complexities within the film and television industry that isn't merely the creative, which is what you're only really focused on when you were at art school.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a big learning curve, actually entering the industry and understanding the nuances within its structural production side.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: That makes a lot of sense.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And also you're dealing with a lot of very strong characters.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've worked with everyone from Sarah Snook, you know, to Jennifer Garner in the recent series.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: These are strong, incredibly talented and very capable women.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: And from what I've seen and researched, your collaborative approach has been very welcomed and it's obviously resonated well, and the outcome is demonstrative of that.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: How do you navigate such big, if you like?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: I won't say egos, but people have big footprints.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's really interesting because I don't see them like that.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just see them as human beings.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's the key.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and I remember early on in my career, I did the show Downton Abbey in the UK.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember giving Dame Maggie Smith a note.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she said to me, Do you know you're the first person in years that has actually given me a usable note?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of thought she was humoring me.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, we we we became very good friends, and I would go to her trailer every morning to talk her through the day so that she could hit the ground running on set.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she said to me, You would be shocked at how many people are either intimidated by me or they think, oh, she's in her 80s, she knows everything there is to know.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: What am I, what am I, what can I give her?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: She said, We all need direction.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think listening to somebody like Maggie, who became a dear friend, feels so reassured and guided when I would give her notes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I just treated her like a human being, like an actor on set that needed some recalibration at times or some push and pull in various areas.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I treat everyone, whether they be the number one on the call sheet or the PA or the unit-based runner, with the same respect and attitude.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're we're all like if catering didn't deliver, you know, when we call for lunch and catering isn't there on time, or if the toilets aren't clean and people aren't having all these things add up to a harmonious creative space for people to work.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, obviously talent has an opinion, and I'm not going to ignore it.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, if I don't agree with it or I feel that it is at odds with where the scene is going or where that character is going, and obviously I'm holding so many different pieces of the puzzle in my head that they may not be aware of.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about it, and I often find that it can be more productive if they feel really strongly about something to let them actually do a take with that intention.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let them get it out of their system.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't fight it.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do it, adjust it, help them.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then once that's in the can, you say, you know what, we've got that.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's try this idea I have.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're much more open to navigating a different way because they've got what they believed in their head was the right way, so they can relax with that.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously they they uh they are aware that this is again something that a director's vision is important to hear.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And more often than not, and I don't say this with a big big head, but more often than not, as soon as they've tried this this direction, they're like, oh man, you're so right.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then you know, we run with it and we take it and they add their own flavour to it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's that's the beauty of of crafting something with a team.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have all the answers, but I think it's important to not feel intimidated or feel that your number one or your A-lister also has all the answers.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: They too, whether they acknowledge it or not, need guidance.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had some pretty extraordinary people on this podcast platform, and one of the things I've noticed is exactly what you've described.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's a sense of they actually, first of all, are extraordinarily open and willing and authentic because what this does, it's a great equalizer.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a podcast platform, it equalizes everyone because everybody's talking about what they've learned, what they need to learn, what they're learning, exactly what you've described.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And based on my brief interaction as a producer, what you describe is absolutely pivotal and critical to that being an impactful and effective production.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I I'm really mindful of is I don't know if I can use this word bullshit.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can I use what?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course you can.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's that I don't bullshit with people.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I say it how it is, and that can be anything from a note or a take and how I respond to it.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But also, if an actor has a question, I'm not going to lie to them about something, whether it be why they've had to come in early or why we're doing this scene again.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's all this trepidation and anxiety about what an actor or what a talent should know, and in terms of production stuff.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I need to say to them, look, we're up against it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: We have a problem, we've lost the location, and now we have to do this.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: So stressful.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, losing a location and budgets, and I mean all the things what you'd be navigating.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think that for talent, when it's relevant, I think they need to be kept in the loop.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they need to know what's going on.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we huddled in a corner talking about something?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I just am very straightforward with everybody because I think that's how I'd want to be treated.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that's part of the skill set.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually quite a gritty job.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: People see the director or the producer role as you know, glamorous, to be honest.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's a perspective, you know, that is glamorous.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: I just remember when I did my master's, I'm like, this is really hard and really gritty.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, as you describe, huddled in a corner trying to say, well, we've got to get a new location, or suddenly that person's dropped out because they're sick, and then the days blow out.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, those call sheets, I'm like, I have such respect for what you must navigate with your team to do something at the level that you're doing it is quite challenging.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: People don't realize.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, it I couldn't agree more.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think when people imagine a director's role, they probably think, oh, it's somebody standing on set and maybe talking to the actors and calling action and cut.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is it is so much more than that and so much more complicated and so much more stressful.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I don't bring that stress to the floor, but it could be that while I'm but uh directing a scene, I'm aware that let's say, let's stay with the losing the location front, which that we need to shoot in the afternoon.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the actor that we're shooting with has to get on a plane that night because they're in on another show and they have to, you know.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, this this is a good example or an example.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing the Christmas special of Downton Abbey, and we were in Annick Castle, and we were doing a grouse shooting storyline.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we had to get grouse three months prior to it.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: We were already speaking with beaters and grouse producers to to grow us grouse for the actual, because it wasn't in season, and we were going to be on these moors, and we wanted, we we had a crane up there, and we had all sorts, I mean it was like a real military operation.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we had various actors, all the main cast of Downton Abbey, plus Matthew Good.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw that the weather was not was looking ominous, but we had to get Matthew out that night.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't reschedule.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: There were so many moving parts that we couldn't reschedule.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: We had the castle that we had to shoot at, etc.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we went ahead.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It turns out that the direction that the beaters came in with the grouse was 90 degrees different, or it was like from the east instead of the north, and so our crane was in the wrong place, and then the heavens opened, and it wasn't just rain, it was hail, and it was 12 hours of hail.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, the crane couldn't be used.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we were shooting, we complet had to completely re-block the scene.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I had to completely rethink how we covered it.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I had, you know, I was told the storms were coming in, so I had to do it within half an hour.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we went on the steady cam.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: The actors couldn't hear each other talking.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: They were literally just imagining lip sync, the steady cam then clogged up with water, so we had to grab the handheld.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything that could go wrong when Sounds like a lot went wrong.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, when you watch it on the screen, you wouldn't know nobody would have any inkling of just how intense that last half hour was.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: But that's the magic, isn't it?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually the magic because it actually shows, and that's really what your skill set is.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, when you look at some of the series, I mean, all her fault was really interesting.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, how divine was it working with that beautiful Australian Sarah Snook, who we just we just adore her because succession, she was extraordinary, but she has such a beautiful presence.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: How did you find her to work with?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Snook is like an exceptional unicorn.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Snook is not just an unbelievable talent, but an extraordinary human with it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, she was also an exec producer on the show and was very she's a beautiful number one.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: She's caring, she's hardworking, but she's also ridiculously talented.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So working with her as a director on a role where it could have felt very one note, this idea of a woman in trauma for eight hours could have really been a bore.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: But actually working with Sarah and rehearsing with her and talking it through and finding these little kinks in that to just have peaks and troughs, so it felt more.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can you for um for listeners who haven't seen it, can you just elaborate what you're referring to there in terms of so the premise of the show is that Sarah Snook's character, Marissa, arrives to pick up her son Milo, from a play date.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's his first real play date.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: She arrives at the the address sent to her by the mum, knocks on the door, Milo's not there.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: The woman at the door doesn't even have kids, she has no idea why this woman is knocking on a door, asking for a child that she she doesn't have or know.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so what then transpires is this eight hours of A, finding the son and B getting to the bottom of a family turmoil.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very powerful show, which actually my husband loved as well.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it was it's not just, you know, the audience was very broad, and obviously it's won a lot of M.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's been extraordinarily celebrated because it was quite quite a brave story the way it was told.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know what was important to both myself and and the writer and the producers was that we were telling a story that was entertaining, it was a thriller, but really it was a character piece in the skin of the thriller, and not just a character piece, but a portrait into social discrepancies and why mothers are often less heavy lifting.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a quite a toned-down version of that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was really wonderful to be able to make a show that was more than just entertainment, that actually had people talking about this.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of women that felt seen after seeing this was really rewarding and gratifying.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: But just to say, this isn't a like a feminist piece, it isn't like it doesn't alienate men.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: We also shine light on some amazing men in the show, like Michael Jamie's character.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, brilliant.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, I agree with you.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really that's why it was interesting.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: My husband was so enamoured with it, and I think that's a good point.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: With regards to the show, the Peacock Show at the moment, you that is obviously much more a female story.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's based on a book.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: When you first saw the script, what was your because you've come on as a director, so what was your take on it, and how was this something that you know you wanted to embrace?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also got some twists and turns.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: It looks a bit vanilla at first, and then you go, oh wait.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about the five-star weekend.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, the five-star weekend.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was both an exec producer and director, pilot director on this.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was first sent it, I I remember reaching out to my team and saying, This is this is not the normal genre you send to me.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Yeah, I know, but just read it, just just hear us out on this and read it.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I did, and I thought there is something really interesting in this book, but only if we dig deep.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember talking to the writer in the studio and the network and saying, I'd love to talk further and get involved, but I want areas that talk about grief, love, friendship, and everything in between to not be surface, that we can actually dig deeper, that we can go to places that many shows that sit in this genre don't really go deep because it's painful.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as they gave me the thumbs up that they agreed this was the path to take, I was all in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is, you know, everything I do, every show I do, it's not about it it's about leaving a legacy beyond just entertainment.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so, for example, with all her fault, we were talking about these discrepancies in social circles of how women generally have to do the heavy lifting when it comes to childcare and doctor's appointments and forms and and and everything in between.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: With Five Star Weekend, I think I'm at that age where it's important to remember our friendships and our friends and to not take advantage of that.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're all guilty of it.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're busy, we've got family, we've got careers to navigate, but actually the people that pick us up off the floor when things are rough are often our closest friends.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I could make a show that by the end of it, everyone, men and women, actually organize their own five-star weekend to start the process of doing their own way of nurturing and making sure friendships are not taken for granted.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I thought the characters in this were quite interesting, and I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hasn't seen it thus far, which is probably not many of these listeners on right now.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought it was really interesting because like Chloe Savigna's Savigny's character was really interesting.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like each character has sort of emerged as much more than you expected.
• 23:37
  unknown: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I like that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I just want to say when I was stuttering and I couldn't find what what I want is that when people come away from this show, they invest in friendships.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: They invest beyond the phone call once every few months, and that they spend time once a year, if not more, really cherishing the and nurturing these friendships.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, on on to Chloe and all the others, I think they too were surprised by how much I pushed them and prodded them.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I remember having a conversation with Chloe at the end of the show, and she said, Wow, I love Tatum, but I'm so protective of her now after everything you've done to really support this character and make me work hard to navigate it beyond surface level.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they all were surprised at how much more digging they were all going to be doing.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it could have been very different the show, but I I found that my desire to really investigate friendships and interrogate them was something they all really got behind and actually found rewarding.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: They, as five women, are the best of friends now, and they didn't know each other before the show.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: But they got to be.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Having gone on that journey in that great house.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: But also, you know, some of the things they did have to tap, and Jennifer Garner's incredible in terms of her depth because I could see that she carried a lot.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: She was quite an anchor, obviously, to the story.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So how how resistant, or as you said, Chloe was very responsive and reflected.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: But how difficult is it to push somebody to go to that next level in that environment?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: People of quite note, and all of those actors are pretty high profile and very, as we discussed earlier, but what you're saying is they were responsive, which led them to open up to each other, which allowed the story to then come to light.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I I think for this caliber of actor to have a director that's willing, able, and insistent that we don't settle for middle ground of both story and depth was refreshing for them.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I and sometimes I'd say, you know what?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just play a bit.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just throw the rule book out and just see where this takes us if we do this X, Y, or Z.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and they loved it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a bit of ad-libbing that went on and unexpected magic.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was something that all of them, as soon as they understood what I was after, just relished it and just lapped it up and couldn't get enough of it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think that we are all at that age, the cast and myself, where to be able to tell stories that dig deep in this way that we don't normally get to do, especially female friendship.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: 100% they all became incredibly excited by and protected, and they're all very protective of their characters now.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we would have long conversations about their trajectories.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because they all, as you say, had uh private journeys as well as collective ones.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think going back to uh Jennifer Garner, I call her Gen G, but she makes things uh look effortless in terms of uh straddling emotions and journeys within the scene.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a talent that very few people have.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think unless you've tried to do this kind of genre people genre, people do not fully understand just what talent Gen G brings to the table.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And on this occasion, she also, you know, dug deep herself, but in the same breath, could like turn it on a dime and suddenly be laughing and being goofy.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it was extraordinary watching her, and she's a another incredible number one who very supportive.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were all so supportive of of each other, and I think I've mentioned this in another interview.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: But for example, in episode six, there is a beautiful scene where Darcy's character, Brooke, confronts her husband, Charlie.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you haven't seen it yet.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're just I think we're I think we're episode five here, are we?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Or just I won't say anything.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: All I'll say, we see this coming though.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not surprised.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: But but all I'll say is that on that day, there was a lot of pressure for Darcy and this scene.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: This scene was was a really important scene both for her personal story and what happens with Hollis's character.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was tough, and you'll you'll know what I mean.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: It it was it was demanding.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: But what was so beautiful was watching how obviously it's my role, my job to support her, guide her, recalibrate, adjust to get to the performance we needed.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: But watching how her fellow stars at the end, when I'd call Cut would go up to her and give her a squeeze and just say, Oh, yeah, that was amazing.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa, you really touched me, or whatever it was.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then the same with Gemma Chan has a great, and she has a great moment on the tennis courts later in that episode.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's a really interesting scene in its construct and what appears to be one direction the scene takes, then takes another.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And on this scene in particular, Gemma has the heavy lifting, and again, watching how the cast at the end of each check would just give her like a bit of a pep talk or whatever it would take to help her.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was a big sequence, a big set piece.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: It took all day to shoot while acting, having to play tennis, it was a lot.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's what you're saying, though, the collaboration, but also I think there's a huge appetite right now.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm finding this even with the podcast and on Instagram and on streaming for these stories about women of this genre, this age, and being much more raw and authentic about the vulnerabilities that we all face.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you that this taps very much into that.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so therefore, it's interesting.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's getting, I think it's one of the biggest streaming shows at the moment, because I think there are a lot of women our age or at this genre who are just saying, thank goodness that we can actually talk about it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's been a lot of breath holding, I think.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm really seeing seeing this sort of this almost like an exhale.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you're saying that was on set, that's actually what you observed.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Completely, and so much love and support.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that is my that is one of my trademarks is that the vibe on set feels collaborative, magical, happy, supportive.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, when you're doing emotional scenes, you push for that.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: But what happened on this show was that five women and myself and the showrunner, so and the two producers, Sue Nagel and Allie Krug, we were just there always, 24-7 for both for each other, but also the cast.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that sense of camaraderie, but but genuine, like there was some moments.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Both some moments where people had personal things going on in their lives, it was very difficult to navigate.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we were all there for each other, and it wasn't tokenistic.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: There was such a depth of care for one another, was was palpable, it sounds like absolutely, and unlike anything I've experienced before.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: How wonderful! I mean, it's interesting.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: I listen to you, and I think, well, you've come from this family of nine children, which is in itself incredible.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Your mother sounds like quite an extraordinary woman.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: She is my mother, yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And my mother had four kids and was a magistrate, and you know, women that we revere what they do, and you look and go, how did you do that?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: But your parents, so just a little bit of background.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Your parents had a passion for arts history, Jewish history, and that obviously has informed your life.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: The notion that you tell stories, that you have legacy, that there's a sense of life is not just you, but you come from something.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very Jewish notion that we must always reflect and honor the past.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me, you you did this incredible film, The Plot Against America.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that was what year was that that you did that?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: That was the first year that Trump unfortunately got in.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was it's before COVID.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Before COVID.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it was it was well and truly quite a while ago.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, you can talk to that a little bit, but I suppose in the current climate, being Jewish, being a Jewish director shouldn't really matter and shouldn't really be a thing.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we don't say a Christian director or a Catholic director or you know, and that's something that I do find frustrating.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: But the truth is it is a particularly challenging and toxic time right now, and you clearly have a real understanding and a backdrop of family who have always been engaged in arts, culture, and philanthropy in the Jewish sphere and in the non-Jewish sphere.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: How has that informed your story and how are you navigating that?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm proud of my heritage.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not necessarily religious, I'm traditional.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the situation in the Middle East is very complicated, and there is no easy way to navigate it.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what's important to me though is that there's dialogue and that we can sit in a room no matter what your creed, color, race, religion is, and talk.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: My husband is actually an Israeli, but was born and brought up in an Arab village in Jerusalem.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so he speaks fluent Arabic.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: His godfather was the Arab elder, the Muslim Arab elder of that village.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he finds things so hard to process because he has lived it first hand, where people can be neighbors and live in harmony side by side.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: His mother was born and brought up in Morocco, same thing.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: She lived Jews, Christians, uh, Muslims all side by side.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so to live in a world of such hatred right now and such divisive culture is really complicated and difficult.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I just bring up my girls, our two daughters, to be open and respectful of everybody, no matter what their background is, and have an open mind and to be open to everybody.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean to say I won't continue to feel be and neither will my children not continue to be Jewish and respect their heritage.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't like the idea that we're all starting to have to be closed in our own little ghettos of culture.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Literally, yes, I agree with you.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a very, very good point because it's like we are part of a beautiful diaspora of wonderful diversity.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very similar to you in that sense, traditional, but with a very strong sense of heritage and history.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you're I was reading about your parents who have always honored arts and culture across the board, and you obviously come from that, and I'm come from a similar space.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think the challenge is to ensure, as you say, that our children are allowed to still flourish in that space and to not be ghettoized in any form because that at the moment, there's a lot of people being cancelled, and you know, whether it's Boy George or whether it's, you know, book launches being cancelled or whatever your it's it's like everything's become like a political lens when actually we've all coexisted for many, many years.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: We've actually been in Australia for over 220 years, very, very old family.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's very important that we also, as you pointed out, your husband has l coexisted.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: He grew up in a coexistence in the heart of Jerusalem.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: So do you feel in any way afraid for your children, or do you feel in any way, or do you think we just continue to be part of the journey and the diversity and the greater world and hope that things start to settle?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose is a way to I mean, I mean, obviously, my daughters have had incidences of anti-Semitism, but it's important that they always see the bigger picture and don't retaliate and continue to have dialogue.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's the most important thing is is talking and and getting to know one another and understanding that I I it was interesting going back to Nantucket.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I went there early on, so in March, April, when we were filming there, we started pre-production in late April, and we needed to find the house, the hero house that we were gonna base ourselves.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite a house, good house.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite a house.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we found the exterior on Nantucket, and then we were gonna build we built all the all the interiors on the stages in in Los Angeles, and so myself and the production designer Scott Dugan, who's also Jewish, went to do an initial scout, and it turned out that it fell on Passover night, the sedder night.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never not been to a sedder.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I reached out to friends and said, Does anyone know anyone that's actually having a sedder on the island of Nantucket this year?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very, very, very small community there during all year.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I found somewhere.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Scott and I went to spend Passover night, Sedder night.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this woman said, I'm one of the oldest people on the island.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: I married an Andrush guy.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when I first met him and was introduced to his friends, people were looking at the top of my head thinking that I was gonna have horns sticking out, no word of a lie.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I mean about just getting to know each other.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there is this myth or this thought of the unknown.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so just, you know, love that story.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: That is so cool.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I find that pretty much anywhere you are, that's one thing that Jewish people do, is anywhere.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: You can land pretty much anywhere.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you make contact with another Jewish person, they'll say, Oh, come over for dinner.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, come on, come and have a pesah, come and have a Shabbat.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the notion which you're referring to of community and being open, and really that's at the heart of our culture.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Really, that's how we've all been raised.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: As you say, the Shabbat table was always open.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't, I mean, we were the same.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: You grew up.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I I what I loved about my mum and dad is that they would invite every religion to our dinner table.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't about exclusivity, it was just about community, and that's what I want this world to continue nurturing is community doesn't have to be religious based, it can be multirreligious based.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when I have a Muslim and a Christian and a Hindu person at my Shabbat table, that to me is is 100%.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: I am in agreement with you 100%.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and we need to talk about that more because that is the blessing of having a beautiful dinner every Friday night and inviting whoever you want to come join.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a somebody who works with me who's Muslim, who's worked with me for 25 years, and we adore each other.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: And she's pivotal to our family and our community.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: So finally, film, storytelling, the arts, that's really an incredible power tool in that you have and that to be part of it.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because really, it allows you to explore the landscape, to j, I mean, what's brilliant is it's very hard to be bored because you're constantly just doing something different.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're sort of like, oh, one minute you're in Nantucket, the next minute you're in the UK.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: How do you find juggling that with family life?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's a lot of demands on you when you've got to be 24-7 on set, and you've got, I know you've got two daughters.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: So how are you finding that?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're older now, 20 and 19.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: So independent young ladies going off doing their thing.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't easy when I first began my career, but it was almost for better or for worse, uh, uh, something that I became really passionate about, which is having seen so many women becoming mums and then f falling away from their careers because it was too hard to juggle.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: I almost to my detriment became adamant that I was gonna, I was gonna prove that we could do it all, that we could do, and I I am unbelievably lucky that I have a ridiculously incredible husband that is supportive and is able to hold the fort down when I'm away.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think part of that they make me better, they made me and they continue to make me better and a more rounded person and a better storyteller.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: But one other thing I would say is that it is an unbelievable privilege to do what I do.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And in my late 20s, I had a near-death experience, I was very ill, and I've had uh quite a few brushes with death.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and I sometimes wonder why am I still here?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: How am I still here?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: How lucky am I that I'm still here?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: But also, there's a kind of responsibility that if I've been saved so many times, there must be a reason why I'm still standing and still being able to do what I do.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually take that responsibility quite seriously now.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that now that the girls are at an age where they understand what I do and they hopefully can be inspired to get out there and do whatever dreams they have and to not not ever feel that it's not possible.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because even if we fall, we pick ourselves up and we find another direction.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: I feel a responsibility to keep telling stories that are going to move people, and I'm not I'm not deluded.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that what I do is entertainment, and I need to make sure it is entertaining, but if I can add a layer in there that supports it with a thought or a an insight into an area of the world that needs addressing or amplifying or changing, then then it's a gift to me that I have to grab hold of and try and do a good job with it.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Minky, on that note, first of all, that is so it's really quite poetic.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we and thank you for sharing that, you know, quite intimate experience.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: But often I find when I talk to people that they are driven by sometimes those very extreme experiences do drive you to gratitude and to faith and to a sense of having a responsibility, which clearly it's done with you.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we're all very thankful that it has because the stories you're telling and have been telling are very powerful, very entertaining.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just very grateful that you could come on to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I've loved our chat.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Deborah.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was an absolute joy, really appreciate it.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolute, absolute joy, and I look forward to seeing the next episode, which we are getting ready for here in Australia, which I know you're in Australia for a while now, which is great.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's the best.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yes, I look forward, and I'll give you my feedback.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've learned podcast.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the Water Club Podcast.