Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Hi, I'm Jen: Getting to Know Jennifer Houle

Transcript

Hi, I'm Jen: Getting to Know Jennifer Houle · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: This week we have kind of a special episode.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing something a little bit different.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Jen and I, believe it or not, when we started this podcast, we were pretty much
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: strangers.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I invited Jen on to another podcast that I was doing at the time to
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: kind of chit-chat and we just kind of hit it off and we got talking.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: We were like, we should do a podcast together about job ads because we both
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: seem to absolutely hate them and think that they need to be fricasséed into the
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: next universe.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that is how we started doing this podcast.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: We actually met for the first time, what you think three months into doing this
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: podcast when you were in Toronto for a conference or a training thing or
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: something.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: first time and we did a "Substack Live" that day.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: That was the first time that we had ever met in person and the first time that we
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: could confirm, that the other person was not a serial killer.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't know each other at all.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hit it off and how it's been six months of podcasting together.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hit it off and how it's been six months of podcasting together.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've been doing this podcast for like six months.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it occurred to me that our listeners probably don't know a heck of a lot about you.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in fairness, I don't know you as well as folks would think that perhaps I do.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think both me and our listeners want to get to know you a little bit better.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna interview you just like you are a guest on my podcast all over again.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be fun.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Got some questions.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm ready.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think the folks at home would really want to know what makes you tick and what
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: your origin story is.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like where you've been, what have you done?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like give us the skinny on that.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like career wise, are you wanting to know?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, career, school.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I kinda read on your LinkedIn that at one point in your life you owned a yoga
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: studio.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I definitely wanna know about that.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: dang.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh dang, we're going way back.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so currently, right now, I am the VP of people operations at a venture capital
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: firm.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: and I have my human resources professional designation from the governing body here
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: in British Columbia.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: But leading up to that, I mean it's a
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think of the right adjective here.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's an interesting story.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to say that when you're talking about yourself.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a formal education.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: I did not go to college.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I did not go to university.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I barely graduated high school.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was a very... chaotic and rebellious...
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: younger person.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the younger version of me would probably jump out a window if they knew
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: that I was going to grow up to be an HR lady.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I think is really interesting about this.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I was very rebellious and very much struggled with traditional kind of
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: school setting and curriculum.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had a lot going on in my personal life re: my childhood and my relationship with
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: my parents, and I did spend some time in
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: foster care system.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I found that I really didn't like authority and I didn't like to be told
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: what to do.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And sitting in a classroom was I guess my worst nightmare.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was impossible.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: My body was there, but my mind was always somewhere else.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: As an adult, I have come to learn that my, you know, diagnoses with chronic
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: depression and anxiety and all of those other challenges have actually been an
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: undiagnosed ADHD.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Both, or yeah...
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: so much sense.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you talk about problems with authority.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not like you you, the human that I know today, you are lovely.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: so let me just put that out for the folks who are listening and kind of took my
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: comment one way...
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you talk about having problems with authority when you're young,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: and not being able to sit still and really not dealing well with those environments
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: that are highly structured.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like knowing now that you have ADHD, that makes perfect sense.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's becoming more and more common for people our age to kind of learn this and
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: be like, "oh, that explains a lot about when I was younger."
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: absolutely.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for women especially too, we do tend to get passed over and just not
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: taken seriously in our pursuit of a proper diagnosis.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, inattentive and hyperactive ADHD.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it is really kind of...
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm processing it now and just tying it back to my
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: childhood and kind of grieving for the opportunities that I think just...
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't pursue because I didn't think that I could or because I couldn't, you
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: know, sit in a classroom, or struggled with authority.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that is to say that... and that's not the reason why.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people with ADHD are highly successful people who do have degrees and
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: PhDs and all that stuff.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was not for me.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: That structure was not for me.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did briefly try to go to college and really again found that I was
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: struggling.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: For women I think a lot of the time, not always, but a lot of the time ADHD doesn't
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: show up necessarily as the inability to sit still, or the need to fidget, but it's
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: more... internally, what's happening in your brain.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what was happening for me is just... very easily distracted.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did a bunch of things.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: You listed the yoga studio.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was a yoga teacher.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: I opened up my own yoga studio.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I dabbled in all sorts of different things.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have been and I think always will be somewhat of a job hopper.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until I found a job where I felt seen and heard for the first time by
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: someone
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: That I considered a true career, and that was in human resources.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so somebody at a company I worked for was the head of human resources.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was an office manager.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: They got to know me.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: They got to see the potential in me.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: They got to see some of the soft skills that I had that were applicable and really
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: mentored me into a human resources career.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's led me to where I am now.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think... sometimes I consider going back to school.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then think about how much that would cost and I think again because
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: What would it be for, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Who who would it be to satisfy?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have a successful career.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing really well.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm on par with a lot of people who would be in a similar cohort age-wise.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: and so I think I'm pretty happy with my career and I've hustled really hard to get
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: where I am at.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I spend and dedicate a lot of my time learning.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I apply to the work that I do now.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a little bit about my background.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I go into the school thing too just because
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: that seems to be a given.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big part of the conversation.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: People will ask, well, where did you go to school or what did you study in school?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of shame that comes with saying... "I didn't."
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I got my designation by challenging the exam and taking a
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: different pathway that was available to me and still landed on the other side of it.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm pretty proud of that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can I as you should be, I can absolutely see
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a little bit to take in.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I never knew any of that.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's really neat to kind of know that about you.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can see where shame, the idea of like, you know, you're asked, "where did you go
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: school?"
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is such a common thing for professionals and and white-collar jobs
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: particularly, to have degrees, diplomas, or or advanced degrees in many cases.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like the number of job ads that we see for entry-level positions where it says, "we
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: want an MBA."
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I personally think that's a little nuts.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty overkill.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you say that there's a feeling of shame when you answer that
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: question.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: by saying, "I haven't gone to school."
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the other side of that is that you are in a leadership position in a venture
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: capital firm, which is a notoriously challenging industry, you're a vice
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: president.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: You've achieved many of the same things that people who have advanced degrees have
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: achieved, but you didn't need the degree.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: You did it in spite of not having a degree.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So like I can I can understand why you would say that, there's some shame
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: associated with.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: answering that question.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: But on the flip side, that's actually kind of kick-ass.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a big deal.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that you should be really proud of.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And like anybody who asks that question and thinks that it's shameful that you
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: don't have an education is kind of dumb.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's pretty serious perseverance to get where you are without that education.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's very me.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it's very aligned with me and who I am and how I have navigated my life,
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: period.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not just the professional aspect, but all aspects of it.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, I do I think that there should be some pride in that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we can talk a little bit about what that has looked like for applying for
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: jobs, actually, because you you named something really interesting.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I could never get a job with the government.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Even the most like the lowest level entry level role...
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: I could never get a job with
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: the government.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: so I
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's certain companies that I'll never be able to work at, no matter
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: how many other certifications or designations I have, no matter how
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: successful maybe my Substack is,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: or this podcast.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've written for the Globe and Mail.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've been published by the Globe and Mail.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've been a speaker coach and featured speaker for Disrupt HR several times,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: which is like the TED Talk for the HR industry.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've hosted...
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: I've facilitated webinars for CPHR, the governing body.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: But those things don't necessarily matter when one of the requirements in a job ad
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: is a degree.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's one of the things that I've always had to come to terms with.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the reason why I did pursue my designation and challenged the
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: exam was because I needed something.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I can do this, I can do anything you put in front of me, I will do it.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: But like, how do you get that foot in the door when you don't have post-
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: secondary education?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that what has helped me, and for anyone listening out there who
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: finds themselves in the same situation... that it's knowing
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: what kind of companies don't look for people or would be willing to overlook
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not going to be like Deloitte and it's not going to be government jobs and
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: things like that.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be... maybe social impact jobs whose mission might align with the
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: idea of hiring someone who doesn't have a post-secondary education and really being
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: thoughtful
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: about where it is that you would like to work and what they would be willing to
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: overlook, based on those
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: soft skills that we always talk about.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's that's also kind of an artifact.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we talk about this a little bit too.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: When you're going out and you're writing a job ad and you're looking for a
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: candidate, it's been the industry practice for so many years to
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: say, okay, look for an educational credential related to the area that you're
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: hiring for.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So look for a diploma, look for a degree.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been it's been such a norm for so long a period of time that I think
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: very few
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: People challenge the underlying assumption.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the underlying assumption is that asking for that degree or that diploma is
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: just a proxy for something else.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: When you say we need you to have a degree, what you're saying is we don't have the
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: time or the capability to evaluate your competence and fit for this job.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to outsource that to something that you have paid for, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's such a shame because I feel like there are so many people who don't have
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: the right degree or the right diploma, or in your case, like one of those, period,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: who are
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: going to be awesome, fits in an organization, but they never get through,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: and this is where the compounding problem kind of comes in.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: They never get through the technology system, the ATS, or the AI-driven pipeline
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: management system because of that one little deficiency in a profile of data
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: \that
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't fully reflect the person.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you've you've experienced this kind of firsthand and like you said,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: you're locked out of certain organizations, government organizations,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: particularly, because of it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me seems very strange.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yet,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: you could have someone with a degree in something completely irrelevant to the
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: role itself.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: "Ah, but they have a degree.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: They have no direct experience in this," but they... it's a real thing.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's a pretty good segue into another thing that was on my mind.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, thinking about your your history of interviewing for different jobs.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: you told me at one point in time that you've got a pretty good like scorecard.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to interviewing, like if you get an interview with a hiring manager
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: and you get through that initial round, you've got a pretty good close rate at
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: getting the job.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a story about something that stuck with you in an interview or with a
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: company's hiring process that changed your perspective on all of it.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've seen a lot of this firsthand and you work in this space, so
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm quite curious about your perspective on it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I guess... something... here here's a story.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: This hopefully this answers your question.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was part of an interview panel and hiring for a role in an organization.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't the one being interviewed.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: ... but the kind of, senior leader, a hiring manager, really torpedoed the
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: interview process.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that they were asking candidates different questions based on
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: the kind of... the vibe that they were getting from them.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So they weren't following the process, they weren't asking the same standard
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: questions, except for one.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a huge problem with that, because then you're not treating everyone
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: equally.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're going down a different path with someone based on their personality
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: and you're not assessing them on equal grounds.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe there's a time and place for that in the interview process, but it
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: really... you really start to go down that path of, this person is the person I can
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: vibe with better.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: This person is the one that I could see myself working with more.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: and it's really based on personality versus some of the other things that you
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: should be looking for when you're interviewing.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But this hiring manager slash senior leader asked people... again, this
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: question was not on the interview question list...
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: ... what qualities about your parents do you see most in yourself?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was a very simple question... weird... yeah...
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was immediately repulsed by that question because for
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: People who have a complicated relationship with their parents, or maybe they don't
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: have parents, or maybe they never had parents, maybe they aged out of the foster
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: care
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: system, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like what an inappropriate question to ask.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: After the interviews, I sent an email just say explaining a little bit about my
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: personal self and why I might find that to be an uncomfortable interview question
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: and why
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: that might translate more broadly to other candidates as well, and that we should no
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: longer be asking that question.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And this was someone who's like a white hetero cis man who went to a very
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: well-known Ivy League university, and could not
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Understand why I was saying that we shouldn't be asking this question, like,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: could not put himself in that mindset.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it I guess the lesson for me there was that not everyone is good at
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: interviewing, not everyone should be part of the interview panel, and having a
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: A bad interviewer can absolutely torpedo the interview process and make you lose
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: really good candidates because they're either not able to represent themselves
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: properly or you're
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: just giving them a really terrible
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: experience.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that was a really good lesson for me was that, dang, I think I can
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: interview people really well, but it is a skill set and not everyone has that skill
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: set
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: and not everyone should be part of the interview process.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've all worked at companies where it's like panel after panel after
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: panel because they just want everyone to be part of the interview process and not
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: everyone needs
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: to be or should be part of it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that that's probably one of the bigger lessons that I've learned.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and interviews, a lot of people treat interviews as conversations.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, I am not against conversational interviews.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I actually kind of prefer them.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know, have a little bit of like leeway to go left and right and and really dive
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: into certain topics that come up that are interesting.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to prepare for an interview and you need to have a plan.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have a structured, very realistic and pragmatic understanding of
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: what information you're trying to to surface, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if you just go into the interview and you're like, I'm just gonna have a bit of
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: a chit-chat with them for 10 minutes and if the vibes are good, then let's hire
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: 'em... that's not
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: gonna work out so well.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, because then how do you decide who you're hiring?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, you know, then you think about when you're when you're determining the
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: quality of the candidate, well, how do you know?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you didn't ask them, say, five candidates the same questions, you didn't
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: assess them.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: How are you assessing this person?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're you're going into it with just not like inadequate information to
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: make a good decision.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, absolutely.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great segue into another question that was on my mind.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: we've talked about this a little bit here and there uh on the show, and it comes up
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: the odd time in episodes.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: But what is one red flag that you see in job ads that you really wish more people
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: noticed?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like it smacks you in the face, and you're like, why don't people see
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: this?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's gotta be something like that for you.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the idea of gender-coded language.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the one.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked about this.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a recent episode that we did.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it actually, well, depends when people are listening to this, but it just
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: went live today.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: and for the benefit of... because it's such a good example, for the benefit of
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: the listeners, it is called Director of First Impressions.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hold for Mr.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Draper, please.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's the name of
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Episode.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a good example of gender-coded language.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I want to give companies and people, you know, job ad writers the
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: benefit of the doubt that maybe they don't realize they're doing it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know that, you know, they're or they're not doing it on purpose.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it's when you are, for example, hiring a receptionist position and all the
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: language you're using is very female-driven.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: whereas there's nothing to say that somebody who's maybe non-binary or a man
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: can't do the same job as well.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: in it shows up with, well actually here's a plug.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Paul and I have an ebook and it's called The Job Description Decoder.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a pay what you want or what you can scale.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can't afford to pay anything for it, don't worry about it.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: But any proceeds we make get split 50-50 between our two charities of choice.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll link to that in the show notes as well.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: but it explains what that looks like.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And once you see it, you can't unsee it.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes really frustrating because when the reason why it's such a problem,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: besides what I said about narrowing your candidate pool,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: The reason it is such a problem is because that company is telling you that they
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: expect certain roles to be filled by women.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And certain roles to be filled by men.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that will tell you which roles they value.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: That will tell you how they pay in their organization.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: it's gonna tell you so much when they start to use gender specific language for certain roles.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's one of the things I think is a huge red flag for me.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Job ads are written so terribly, but go and listen to this episode, please, and
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: you will understand exactly what we are talking about.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: that's to me gonna be my
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of my biggest red flags because it tells you everything you need to know
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: about the organization and how they view women, or like, "feminine" jobs.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely... one of the things, and I don't know if I've ever said this to you
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: directly before.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that I've gotten out of our professional relationship in doing
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: this podcast that is just, like, it's so valuable and it was so eye-opening...
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: is the impact of
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: language and on meaning and being able to like say, okay, certain word choice
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: actually does connect very closely to a certain meaning inside an organization.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been a very eye-opening experience.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, for folks who are listening to this, you can't see me, but I
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: am a white
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: man, I'm in my 40s...
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I am pretty normal as far as like the mainstream definition of normal goes.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm that guy.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think that I'm aware of it, but I've still learned from Jen that, there
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: are other things that I haven't been aware of before.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think I've ever said thank you for that, but it's it's a thank you kind
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: of scenario because I'm more aware of it.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: For sure, I'm more aware of it now.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes me so happy if more people can be aware of how language impacts
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: pretty much everything.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna use this opportunity to plug a Substack friend of ours who I think that
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: if anyone's interested in the power of linguistics.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And how that might even come into play with things like job ads.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: The Strategic Linguist...
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: we'll link in the show notes as well, is a phenomenal Substack account.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And she writes all about the power of language in the workplace, corporate, in
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: life, everywhere.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Even a really powerful and very popular post that she wrote about
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: IVF and the journey for, you know, women to become pregnant and the language around
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: that kind of, world, as well.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really interesting, fascinating about how important and impactful language
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: is.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want to pivot a little bit and talk more about cultural norms inside the
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: workplace.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked about, you know, red flag, gender-coded language.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: That was a great one to call out because it is absolutely everywhere, along with
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: other forms of coded language.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: But thinking about cultural norms in the workplace, is there one that you find
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: particularly overrated or
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Goofy, or it's just like, why are we still doing this, people?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Cringe to the max.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's cringe to the max that I said cringe to the max, but let's forget that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why...
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've never said cringe to the max in my life, but weird things
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: happen when you... ...the mood struck you...
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: ... culture fit.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: The idea of culture fit is heinous to me.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's embarrassing.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's outdated.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: We are going to look back at that years from now and be like, I can't believe that
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: we would hire for culture fit.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like straight up stupid.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many reasons why, but I think that it is the least strategic thing
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: that you can do in an organization is hire the person who you could imagine going
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: for a beer with.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that's not just culture fit.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people like to equate culture fit to values alignment.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: so we're looking for someone who
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is aligned to our core values at our organization.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but that's not culture fit then.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: and it's detrimental to an organization.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, to hire a lot of clones of yourself.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: You need to start hiring people that make you uncomfortable.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying people who walk by and smack you on the ass in the office.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I mean.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's a difference between dangerous
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And people who challenge the way that you think.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: challenge the way that you do things, challenge the way that you approach work.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm talking about.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So just because somebody might dress a little bit differently or just because you
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: feel like they didn't make enough eye contact during the interview, please,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: that's, again...
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: so embarrassing.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Start to think about hiring people who might approach things differently than
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: you.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it is disruptive.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is disruptive to your team and it is going to be frustrating because that's not
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: like, we've always done it
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: this way and so-and-so is coming into this organization and they're talking about
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: maybe we should try doing it this way or you know that way and that is inconvenient
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: to you, that's
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: a problem.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your team is going to struggle to adapt, to grow, to innovate.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So stop hiring clones of yourself, stop hiring for culture fit and start hiring
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: for... if you want to call it values alignment, sure.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's that either.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's this concept that I like that I have coined, called, collaborative range.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I write about it on my Substack, Uncompliant, and it's the idea of hiring for people who
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: can adapt and increase the way that you can collaborate within work and show
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: people who show up differently and challenge the norms that you have createda
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: that are truly holding
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: you back.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, culture fit is mine.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 'cause culture culture and values, like you say, they're they're not the same
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: thing, but organizations tend to use them interchangeably, those two phrases.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea that you need to hire people who
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: you could see yourself going with a beer for...
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I kind of get the notion, I get the the inkling to do that because that kind
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: of goes back to, you know, how we form relationships and whatever.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and traditionally in the past, like relationships at work or, you know,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: jobs or hiring or whatever else has been very relationship-driven.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've all heard this story of like, well, you need a job, just go network.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, tap your network, you know, phone a friend and they'll be able to find
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: you a job.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: No problem.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you, I have never, ever, ever had that work out for me like once in my
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: entire life.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time when I tell people I know that hey, I'm looking for a new job, over
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: the past twenty years, it's been like, cool.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I will... ask around and then you never hear back.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: You never hear anything again.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: "...
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll forward you a job post."
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or they'll send you a job post or something like that.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: that whole story of of getting a job, you know, relying on relationships and
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: networking, like I'm sure there's some truth to it, but it's not the thing that
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: it's supposed to be.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So like if that's the case, then why do we need to treat the rest of it like a
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: relationship building exercise?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that makes no sense to me.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing too, like let's actually dig into this a little bit more.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: if I may.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: When you were... when people were hiring for culture fit.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think it comes from the idea of you're all gonna be working in an office together
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: and we're all gonna be spending so much of our lives in the office working together
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: that we
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: should hopefully get along.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of people met like their closest friends through work and my
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: partner and I met through work.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there is something to be said, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that is an in-office environment where you are expected to spend the majority of
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: your time with your colleagues.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you do wanna hire people that you can like get along with.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying not hiring for culture fit doesn't mean that you would hire people
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: you don't get along with, right?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's not about being, you know, in a dangerous situation, it's about being
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: uncomfortable.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now I think more and more, especially Gen Z, their work isn't their life
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: anymore.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just your work.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're just gonna go in, do your work, and then get the f*ck out of there.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so you don't need to be besties with your colleagues at all.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to tolerate them.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Collaborate with them to succeed, but that's it.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's such an archaic concept to hire people for culture fit when most of
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: us, not everyone, but a lot of people are working remotely or hybrid or whatever,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: and the younger
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: generations are no longer making the workplace their end-all, be-all.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: this this concept can go.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's done now.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's not it doesn't matter anymore as much as it did back in the olden days.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: The prior days are different for people.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if I put on my a*shole capitalist hat for just a second, do I really want people
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: who are chummy and buddy, goofing off at the water cooler all day instead of making
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: me money?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, I do not.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's the other argument for, you know, ditching the culture fit thing.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's less productive.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe your company runs less efficiently and effectively if you just hire people
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: who are buds.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Think about... yeah, think about what new and diverse experiences and ways of
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: thinking can bring to your organization.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And also think about what where was culture fit the idea of that born from.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then determine whether or not you still need that for your organization.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that still relevant to you?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're so stuck with these like operating processes that served a purpose at a time.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe... and we just don't stop and think, does that still serve a purpose?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, then kill it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there's another question that I'm very curious to hear the answer to...
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: How has co-hosting the show changed your own perspective on hiring or searching for
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: jobs?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like what what's changed ever since we started doing this six months ago because
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: of it?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have never thought more about the hiring process and job ads in my entire life
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: than I have in the last six months since we started this podcast together.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: It really has made me realize that a job ad isn't just some document.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: everything.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: It tells the candidates everything they need to know about your organization.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it truly is a huge deal.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's changed my perspective in that respect.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: That it
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: means a lot.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very big deal.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that it can be anything you want it to be.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like again, when we talked about these old like operating systems or processes that
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: we just can't seem to let go of, the same can be said about job ads.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: They are all the same.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're all the same format, the same template, the same, like, blah blah blah.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: and...
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe it.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe we're still using
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: this weird old relic and we're not trying to hire people or write job ads in a
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: different way.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about this on a recent episode.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: it was a company that does...
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like entertainment for kids but with a
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: learning aspect.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And yet their job ad was the same that you could find for any company.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why not use this opportunity to write a... like a very cool job ad or a video
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: because you're talking about hiring someone to head up your YouTube?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So do a video job ad.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Make it completely different.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where are these innovative new ways of advertising for roles?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, Paul, uses the exact same format.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then we all complain about how many applicants you're getting and how
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: underqualified everyone is, and how it's just AI talking to AI.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well then do something different.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Then change it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: You have the power to change it to be anything you could possibly dream of.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a cool opportunity there.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what really is kind of... has changed my perspective was that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize before we started this podcast that the way we hire and job ads
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: themselves are so broken.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know that they are.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So my perspective for that has changed significantly.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess I guess that's my answer.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Recruiting is marketing, right?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: ... Yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: But you tend to have people who are not marketers, or persuasive, running
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: recruiting campaigns.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm not saying that... not casting any shade on those people.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're just kind of following the structures and systems that have been
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: around for a very, very long time that have never been updated.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: but it's on us as leaders of a new generation of workplaces to really
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: really ask those hard questions.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Does this work?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we doing something this way?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: How can we do it differently?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you think about recruiting being marketing, there's a lot more that
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: you can do with it, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Than saying, let me write a job ad that has a standard template that I never
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: deviate from.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's dumb.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's dumb.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Get your marketing team involved.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's always like HR...
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have HR, it's the hiring manager.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then people are just looking to see what other similar roles exist out there
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: and then copying that template or using their own template.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we know this because we see a lot of mistakes in the job ads too.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can tell that they were just copied and pasted from previous
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: ones or like...
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Does your job actually require someone with this specific designation?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do they actually need that?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like HR, for example, a lot of roles require a specific designation.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you actually need that?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would argue that you don't.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: So stop putting that in there.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like start questioning what it is that you're asking and putting out there.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's really changed my perspective and how I see...
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can't look
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: at job ads anymore without dissecting them and taking them apart and like rewriting
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: them and
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And like that urge to reach out to the company and be like, we can, we can do
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: this for you a lot better than what you've just done.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say the other thing is that it's not always bad job ads, right?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're also, we've found some really good ones too.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: but the majority of them are terrible, terrible job ads out there.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of the the copy and paste thing, when I was going through some job ads this
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: morning to add to my stockpile for the show, I found one from a very, very large
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: company that's publicly traded.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: and the job was posted.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was for
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: fairly senior role.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was for a director-level role that would have had a commensurate salary
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: attached to it.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the job ad was, you know, written out like about the company was there.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was fine.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was nice, kind of creatively written.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: All of the accessibility and inclusion statements were like there, and it was
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: fine.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was nothing wrong with those.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: but then there were two sections.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: There was about the role and about the team.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it said there was one bullet point in each, and both bullet points, one in each
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: section, said bullet points are here.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this was... a live job ad that I found on LinkedIn.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember if I added it to to like our backlog or whatever,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: because it would be the shortest episode in history, or maybe the longest.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Big, big company.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Big companies still make mistakes like this.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm saying...
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: We all talk about, like, the most expensive cost for any company is their
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: people, right?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's gonna cost you the most, is paying for your salaries.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we always talk about how important the people are to the organization.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when say a company is getting acquired, the company acquiring them is
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: actually buying the employees in the organization, right?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, we know this to be true.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yet you see job ads like what you just said, that it's like how much thought and
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: work are you putting into this?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like nothing.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're gonna say there's no good talent out there, or nobody wants to work,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: or yeah, we can't find the candidate.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then you see the same job ads posted over and over again.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like because your job ad is sh*t, because you're not
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: doing it properly, you're not putting the amount of energy and care into it that you
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: should be.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And your story reminded me of remember we found a funny one too on LinkedIn.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was a job ad, but whoever posted the job ad accidentally put their resume
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: in the job ad
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: They...
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: I... they would have gotten fired, I imagine.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: This was a live job posting on LinkedIn, and it was actually the person whoever did
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: it put their resume in by mistake.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like put their resume as a job ad.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it was a clever marketing.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they were like, I'll find a job this way.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: it's unbelievable how how little care goes into job ads.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's funny too because one of the one of the common complaints that you
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: hear from hiring teams that are responsible for this is like, I just I
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: don't have time to write job ads.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like there aren't enough hours in the day, like I'm overburdened, I'm stressed, I
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: can't write job ads.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if I once again put on my kind of capitalist asshole hat, you're going to
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: spend on the low end
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: forty thousand dollars a year on the high end couple hundred thousand dollars a year
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: on this particular, like, asset in your business and you're telling me that it's
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: not worth your
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: while to spend four hours.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: on this thing that will arguably and demonstrably bring a much more productive,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: effective, better quality asset into the organization.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you frame it through that lens, it's like... no... do it, or be fired.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is it.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is it.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: You do have time and you can leverage AI.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Use an AI tool.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we talk about like the biases and everything in there.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Tell it what you're concerned about.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Say to the AI tool, I'm concerned I wanna make sure that I don't, you know, have
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: biases about this.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: I wanna make sure that I'm not just targeting women, or not just targeting
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: men.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I wanna make sure that I attract a diverse candidate pool.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Say all of those things and then work with the AI tool to build it if you feel like
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: you don't have time.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like you said, if you put the time and energy into it, you will see
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: that return on your investment.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're wasting money otherwise.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: it's such a huge drain to not do it the right way.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Take the time.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, I've I've absolutely loved having kind of a candid conversation with you
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: today to get to know you a little bit better.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I want to close off with one final question though.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: What's your favourite episode of Roast the Post and why?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, great question.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So my favourite episode of Roast the Post is, I think, it's our second episode.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pulling it up right here so I can find it...
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's called Executive Assistant and Office Manager.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Two jobs in a trench coat.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's my favourite because it is a hot dumpster fire
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: mess.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely terrible.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: The job posting itself, and then the job design as well.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's my favourite because, I think we were both blown away
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: in real time by how terrible it was.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really eye-opening about how bad
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: a situation can be that you might be walking into.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I liked it because we were real with our reactions.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: We had some good banter.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think our personalities showed up really well.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's so early days in like this whole process for us.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a little bit of us not really knowing what we were doing either.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: And like feeling our way through it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it stands out to me just because it's such a terrible job posting.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: and yeah, I think I still think about who might have been hired into that role and
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: what their life looks like right now.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's how bad it was.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that one.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that we we kind of stumbled into really early on in talking
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: about that job ad was... this is two full-time jobs put into one for no good
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: reason.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't list the salary, but they listed the salary for other jobs that they
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: were hiring for in that company, which, that was after pay transparency laws took
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: effect in Ontario.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So a little bit illegal.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: That one was a blast.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: I might actually re-watch that one tonight.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: and I think too another thing that...
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think this job ad was the catalyst for...
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: it created that momentum for us, realizing we can't just rate the job ad.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: We also have to rate the job design because you can tell about the job design
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: based on the job ad.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that was one of those eye opening moments where if it didn't, if it
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: didn't spur us to do it, it was it got us, you know, towards that point where we're
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: like, yeah,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: we gotta rate two things here, the job ad and the job design, because they are two
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: different things.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there you can see it right there.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that now.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that's where that's where the story behind the bullet points came
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: from.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We started thinking about the organization and we were like, what does this actually
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: tell us about the organization?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like the structure of the organization and the teams and everything.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember that now.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was a lot of fun.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'd say that's my favourite.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been another episode of Roast the Post, a little bit different,
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: personal interview with Jen, so we can get to know her a little bit better.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: We will be back next week with another episode.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not subscribed, you should go do that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: See y'all later.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just burped.