Latest / The Diary of a CFO / Why Treasury is More Than Managing Cash, with Matthew Harlan

Transcript

Why Treasury is More Than Managing Cash, with Matthew Harlan · The Diary of a CFO

• [00:00:00] Wassia Kamon: Welcome back to the Diary of a CFO Podcast, the podcast where finance leaders share the lessons, challenges, and wins that shaped their careers as well as their organizations. I'm your host, Wassia Kamonn, and today I'm so delighted to have with me Matthew Harlan. He's a Chief Treasury Officer at Nilus Lending. [00:00:22] The company's go-to market strategy and community from the practitioner's perspective. He's been in the treasury space for over a decade and he has served as senior director of treasury at Toast and head of Treasury at Samsara. Both companies were public company. He's based in Houston, Texas, and so grateful to have you on. [00:00:41] Welcome to the show, Matthew. [00:00:43] Matthew Harlan: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Grateful to be here as well. [00:00:47] Wassia Kamon: Awesome. So why don't you start with telling us about your journey and any unexpected twists along the way. [00:00:54] Matthew Harlan: Yeah, absolutely. So let's start with treasury. Mm-hmm. Most people dunno what it is. So I [00:01:00] want to give a quick background. [00:01:01] Treasury is in a finance function and treasury. The best way I like to describe it is it sits at the nexus of accounting and fp and a. Mm-hmm. It's both in the future, but it's also contemplating the past. Our primary responsibilities have to deal with cash flow management. A lot of risk management as well as it pertains to counterparty exposure, financial entity risk, making sure things are well funded, and so there's an engine behind finance. [00:01:25] There's an engine behind companies, and I like to say treasury is well versed within that and, and managing the car, so it can get to where it needs to go. But my journey in treasury was in some ways coincidental. Many people don't go to school for treasury. Uh, I went to school for accounting, thought I wanted to be an accountant. [00:01:41] Then I realized what life looked like at the Big four and decided I didn't want that life. And so I looked, I looked for other things and so, um, I actually started at a bank in Boston, a small bank, private bank that got acquired by SVB. And I was taking a class in grad school called the Money of Banking, [00:02:00] and I realized that in order for me to really be well versed in finance, I needed to have a broad understanding of how financial institutions worked, how the money supply worked. [00:02:10] How companies engage with the markets and how this whole system is created. And I was really intrigued by it. And I was like, what, what job at a company, you know, is focused on interest rates, is focused on understanding what the Fed is doing. And all roads led to treasury. And so I was thankful early on to have some support people in my career. [00:02:28] And, uh, yeah, I joined the treasury desk and I, I've never looked back since. So from there, you know, as you've mentioned, the bio I've started out in, in banking, I've worked in telecommunications, life sciences. Uh, most recently tech. And so it's been a really fun ride. I've learned a lot. And, uh, treasury is not in some ways monolith. [00:02:45] It's so different in every company, but I think the core thing that holds true, they're needed. It's a needed resource. They are the unsung heroes of many task and finance that people don't know about. [00:02:56] Wassia Kamon: Absolutely, because treasury doesn't always get a spotlight in finance. [00:03:00] So what would you say is being overlooked overall and what people often misunderstand about the impact it has in an organization? [00:03:09] Matthew Harlan: Yeah. I think there's a couple things that go into that. I think it's a volumes thing, right? Whenever you go to school, there's very clear pathways to being an accountant and there's very clear pathways to being in fp, p and a setting, corporate finance. There's not necessarily a wide understanding of what Treasury does, and that kind of reverberates in many different areas. [00:03:29] One, if you have a CFO that doesn't really understand the role, sometimes that could lead to, um, misalignment to maybe what a treasurer wants to do versus what they're being asked to do. In many cases, especially with high growth companies, they're working very quickly to get the pieces in place to go public or to get the pieces in place to get to the next level of growth. [00:03:49] Sometimes that requires internal education, right? Mm-hmm. Educating people. Mm-hmm. About what you do. And so I think some of the spotlight has to do with the education aspect. It's not necessarily taught in [00:04:00] schools, but also I think it's also an understanding aspect when it comes to people working in corporate finance. [00:04:05] But I think as you get into like, you know, oh, we have a cash crunch or what is gonna be our five year plan on cash, and people start to really wake up to say, oh, we need a treasury function. [00:04:15] Wassia Kamon: Yes, we need to raise more, more money. [00:04:19] Matthew Harlan: Exactly, exactly. What's our bank? What's our capital structure and how are we gonna support the business outside of just revenue and sales in the event we need a contingency. [00:04:28] And that's where treasury comes to mind with the the capital markets expertise. [00:04:32] Wassia Kamon: Awesome. And you worked for a company that went public while you were there, so what was your experience like and what did you learn as a treasury professional? 'cause I think it's something that's pretty neat understanding, like you said earlier, it's not just revenue and expenses, it's your also your capital structure. [00:04:51] Matthew Harlan: It was super unique. I'd say that for many reasons. I think if, if you have never gotten that experience, I would always encourage someone to, I think you, you learn a lot. [00:05:00] About how things are set up. Usually when you come into a finance org mm-hmm. There's a structure that's already in place and you're kind of just coming, plugging in, you know, really trying to help get the next iteration to get it to a better place, but building it from the ground up is very unique. [00:05:13] You really have to understand what you're doing. One thing I just want to give a shout out to Toast, you know, they, the finance team there was I think assembled by experts. The people that I worked with across, you know, revenue accounting, GL accounting. FP a strategic finance we're, you know, some of the best. [00:05:31] And I think when you have a team that kind of knows what they're doing, it's, it's easy to gel and it's also easy to go from zero to a hundred. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it requires a lot of work. You have to start really at the most nascent level of the company. You really have to understand how they make money. [00:05:46] You have to understand. How the systems work. You have to understand the revenue life cycle. You have to understand the supply chain in a detailed way to truly build something effective. And so I think it kind of forced me to [00:06:00] get out of my comfort zone within treasury. You know, usually we are recipients of the p and o. [00:06:05] We receive the balance sheet, and then we interpret them for cash. Mm-hmm. But I think starting at a startup, we all started at the, you know, grounds level, the sea floor. And so you really come away with a better understanding. I think that actually made me a better treasury person, to be quite honest, because I was able to kind of fully pull the thread, you know, between every sale of a transaction and how it correlates to collections. [00:06:27] Even understand the dynamics of collections as it relates to a JR. And and when things are gonna translate to cash. So it helped me to have a solid grasp of the business. Mm-hmm. More so than I think if I just were to step into the role of something, something that was already prebuilt. [00:06:40] Wassia Kamon: That's awesome. [00:06:41] Yes. I've worked for a high growth company too. And you don't really have a roadmap or a template or This is a template we use a month before just copy over next month. [00:06:53] Matthew Harlan: Yeah. What I like to tell people is it's a startup. Within a startup. You're learning how to build your engine, you're building your [00:07:00] team, you're dealing with resourcing. [00:07:01] At the same time, you're also negotiating budget. You know, from the leadership team, you're understanding plans and you're trying to help. Give budget envelopes to teams. You're trying to understand how market shifts are gonna impact the business. So there's a lot to really consider. Mm-hmm. And what I would say a short period of time. [00:07:19] Yeah. I wouldn't trade that expanse for anything. I think it's kind of made me who I am today if, if that makes sense. [00:07:24] Wassia Kamon: Of course, of course. So let's say maybe we have some listeners that are working for companies that wanna go public. What would you say they should be keeping in mind when they look at the financial statement, the, the capital structure? [00:07:38] How do you know you have not enough debt or too much debt? How much equity are you willing to let go? Like what would you say are some things that you would definitely look for when you look at a financial statement of a company that wants to go public? [00:07:52] Matthew Harlan: Yeah, totally. I think it's a great question. I think you really have to understand the revenue cycle. [00:07:57] How long does it take to convert [00:08:00] a contract into cash? I think that's really important to understand the capital piece. In any event, it's always good to have a contingency in place, so making sure you have corporate cards, making sure you get a revolver for many reasons. One, the revolver conversation I think is really important because you're gonna need a bank group. [00:08:18] What the bank group does is it contextualizes. How we spend money on financial services. And so instead of giving JP Morgan X and giving Citibank X and Wells Fargo X, you need to develop a framework that establishes how we play with the banks and how they play with us. Meaning are we giving them and what are they giving us in return? [00:08:39] And in many cases, that's liquidity. So having a revolver I think is important. I think also really un understanding your unencumbered cash. So looking at short term liabilities. Understanding how much of a buffer you want to keep in your account related to the short term liabilities, and then using that as a proxy to determine your policy [00:09:00] around how much cash you keep in each account. [00:09:02] I think a lot of shortfalls that teams face is they don't have this methodology of like, how much do we wanna keep in in each account? Mm-hmm. And what happens is once it gets too low, it's too late. And now you're struggling to find capital sources. You're struggling to accelerate. Contracts and accelerate payment because you didn't think about it in the early days. [00:09:23] And so I think that's really important. I think on the expense side, making sure that you have the internal parameters in place to ring fence and to gate expense in many cases, like when you started a young company expense, kind of the wild west, it's like, do what you need to grow and that's all great. [00:09:39] Yes, and it does really enable the company to kind of have more autonomy, but I think as you become larger. It does stifle maybe some of the expense projections that you want to keep in making sure you have good grasp around that. So making sure that on the fp a side, there's a solid approval process. Is FP a [00:10:00] approving large spin? [00:10:01] Making sure on the procurement side, we have contracts. We have a thought about. What our standard agreements are, what are our standard terms that we give people, and making sure that all of that kind of works together. I think in the early days is really important, but it all feeds into the capital conversation, right? [00:10:18] Capital should just be in support of the business. If it's a high growth, let's say tech company, it shouldn't be the business. It should always be there as a contingency, but I think in many cases, because we don't do the ABCs, right, internally, left shoe's not talking to right shoot procurement's, not talking fp a, not talking to accounting. [00:10:35] They're not talking to the business. We don't have a process that is actually supporting us to handle the money efficiently as it comes in and to handle the contracts efficiently as it comes in. So I think really starting there and doing, doing a deep dive, and that's what I usually do when I start in a company. [00:10:50] The sexy stuff is cash and the sexy stuff is capital markets. Like that's all the stuff people wanna do. But really starting at the building blocks of how does the process work, what are the [00:11:00] improvements we can embed? You can find some hidden dollars there every single time. I kid you not, and I'll give one example on the AP side. [00:11:06] Mm-hmm. Right? AP is not thinking about working capital. They don't care about cash. AP is focused on making sure bills are paid. Yes. That's job. Don't blame 'em for it, right? Mm-hmm. AP and Treasury are not in insertion. What happens is you have a misuse of cash because sometimes. They're just getting things out the door. [00:11:25] They want to clear their queue. Let's make sure all the vendors get paid. But maybe making a decision to pay closer to payment term would give us an incremental three or $4 million in working capital, right? Mm-hmm. If you think about the process, it doesn't seem like a big decision, but when you think about the impact, it changes your mind. [00:11:44] In my early days, what I always focused on was, uh, not talking so much about the process first, but dropping from impact and then taking 'em down to process. So we have a $5 million opportunity. How payment terms, right? We have a $3 million opportunity. How? [00:12:00] Collecting everything in 60 plus aged receivables. [00:12:03] We haven't done any dunnings on these customers. We haven't contacted them, right? Mm-hmm. So sometimes a lot of money just left on the table. Mm-hmm. Just because of process. And so usually that's the place I focus on. I think that's where treasures get their ROI. To actually show that they're not a cost center, but they can actually help drive profit and you know, help the business run efficiently. [00:12:21] And I think that's where treasury earns its stripes. [00:12:24] Wassia Kamon: That's awesome. And I liked what you said about AP and compared to ar, we are often working in silos. Our performance is measured differently, so our focus will be different because like you said, ap, I wanna pay the bills, and we don't always think about the ramification of what we do. [00:12:47] So what are some of the things that maybe in working with AP or ar, you learn to communicate with them, or even in any piece of software or technology that can help bring all those things together? [00:12:59] Matthew Harlan: Yeah. One thing I will [00:13:00] say is that, you know, it. It eclipses more than just AP and l, right? There's inventory, yes. [00:13:04] And there's so many things that we haven't talked about, but I think the, the process, or maybe the recommendation, I would say still holds true is you have to be communicative. You have to build interpersonal skills, you have to learn how to operate in what I call informal authority. What that means is you can't go in and bang your, you know, your, your fists on the table and demand people do what you want them to do. [00:13:26] You're not gonna build connections like that. And what's gonna happen is you're gonna be ring fed from information, right? Because you're not in our team. Why do we need to tell you this? And so I think part of building informal authority is, is an educating, this is why it matters to me. This is the impact to the business, and this is how we can collaborate to change this outcome for the company. [00:13:46] So when you create a shared goal. With those collaborators, it changes the ask instead of it's, you know, Treasury's asking me to do more work. Treasury's actually asking me to help solve something material for the business. They've already given me the [00:14:00] materiality. So I think building interpersonal skills, learning how to talk to people, learning how to build those relationships, I think is one of those unsung hero skills that does not go noticed enough. [00:14:10] We focus so much on the analytical, right, which is important. You know, we need numbers, we need to be able to tell the story. But building relationships, I think I've seen, for me, the best CFOs, the best VPs of finance, the best treasurers I've seen are really strong and have a high eq. They're able to understand their team, they know where to put people in at the right moment, and they're also able to, you know, promote performance and growth by building relationship and connection. [00:14:38] So I think, um, you know, shout out to the finance schools out there. You need to have more, you know, ob classes, organizational behavior and, and EQ assessments to really help finance continue to thrive. You know, the way that changes the organization. So instead of just being a back office function. To helping to lead the business. [00:14:55] Help [00:14:55] Wassia Kamon: lead. Yes. And I love how you said it because it, it goes back to the idea [00:15:00] of being business partners, right? Like finance, really every function within the finance departments should be a better business partner. [00:15:09] Matthew Harlan: Yeah. And I, and you know, to some extent we just say that's fp a's job, right? Like. To be the business partners. [00:15:15] Accounting does the cleanup and treasury just waits. But uh, to your point though, I think, yeah, I think that's a really strong, you know, when you think about CFOs that are trying to promote this type of like culture and their team, I think the culture of everyone is a business partner is imperative. It takes a responsibility and it allocates it across the team. [00:15:35] So you're not just like relying on fp a to source information, treasury, you have contacts accounting, you have contacts. I think it builds a full body accounting team that actually has this strong band of institutional knowledge that's all the way through the organization. I'm sure you've seen this too, where you have some like really strong players in finance that understand the business and you have others that just like understand their role. [00:15:58] The whole goal is like, how [00:16:00] can I get this person who's really good at their role to get deep in business context so they can continue to like unlock their superpowers and that only helps promote their growth. It helps the company in general, helps finance shine. And so it creates this like symbiotic relationship. [00:16:13] I think when we think about like people development, team cohesion and really understanding the context of what we're doing. [00:16:20] Wassia Kamon: I think as treasury too. I, I can only imagine what kind of pushback you're getting. So how do you get people on board? Like what kind of metrics or tactics you use to get them to say, ah, now I understand. [00:16:35] Because again, people don't always know the money, the flow of money, right? We're like, oh, we made money, is like, no, we didn't really make money. Like, how do you handle those things? [00:16:46] Matthew Harlan: This is a really good point. I think when it, there's many different types of communications. I think that treasury, but also finance leaders as a whole need to embody. [00:16:55] One is, you know, bottoms up communication. We don't need to give [00:17:00] CFOs every single nook and cranny of how we arrived at a number. You're gonna lose them. Mm-hmm. They're not in the weeds like you are. I think we need to understand that. Right. But our job is to really be a translator. To get the CFO to understand what is relevant to them and how can I communicate my function in a way that they understand or the impact of what I'm trying to say, my analysis and the way that they understand. [00:17:22] Mm-hmm. Best way to do that, of course, is illustrative examples, making sure your graphs are really crisp. I think keeping words to a minimum on slides, but I think also as you're, you know, the way I like to communicate about communicating data is giving the what, the why, and the how. How does this impact us? [00:17:41] What is it and why should you care? Right. And I think the why you should care typically is, is really connected to the p and l in many ways. Like this is gonna drive income for us or profit the what should be. Give me a brief understanding of what we're talking about. Why do you need my time in order to understand this, and why do you need my, my vote of [00:18:00] opinion? [00:18:00] And so I think if you can do those three things in every single presentation, every single analytical output. It'll help you build trust within the organization. It'll help elevate your role and also help you to be in rooms where maybe you wanted to be or you needed to be and people just didn't understand. [00:18:17] But because of your articulation, because of the way you approach problems, you're now kind of getting your seat at the table. [00:18:22] Wassia Kamon: Love it. I love that framework. 'cause yes, it's easy to get lost in the detail and miss the picture and I, I think unfortunately, that's why a lot of people don't see. You know, whether you in accounting or even in treasury, they don't see, oh, are you as being strategic because you, you are so much in the detail. [00:18:43] It's hard sometimes to say, can you see the bigger picture and explain it to me at that level. [00:18:49] Matthew Harlan: Totally, and look the details necessary. I don't want to diminish the value of understanding all the plumbing pipes. Yeah, you need that, but you also need to understand how to communicate that [00:19:00] based on the audience. [00:19:00] I think that's where we fall short. Mm-hmm. So maybe if you're speaking to a technical account on it or someone. Know, on the reporting side, you need to be very detailed, right? Mm-hmm. Need to give them, how does our debt structure work, right? How is it? What is the interest rate? How does the sofa reset, et cetera. [00:19:17] They need to understand that because they're gonna be writing the 10 K, the 10 Q based on what you're telling them. But I think understanding how to contextualize for every conversation, what does the audience need and what is the most effective way I can communicate them, will make you a better storyteller. [00:19:31] You'll be a better presenter, and I think you'll build more trust because you're speaking in a way that is at the level of the audience, but in a way that they can understand. You can transfer information. [00:19:42] Wassia Kamon: I love it. I love it. And these are things that we don't learn in our curriculum in accounting, like it's not in a pamphlet. [00:19:50] I think I was given the presentation in Austin for the A FP, and I was like, I looked at the curriculum, the undergrad curriculum at people, for example, in [00:20:00] marketing and people in accounting or finance, marketing. They were doing consumer behavior, you know? HR was like employee behavior. We were number behavior the whole time. [00:20:13] Matthew Harlan: Exactly, exactly. So, and you know, to be frank, this is maybe a little bit, excuse me, off topic, that's why in some cases we have really smart but bad leaders in finance, we all work for people that it's like, man, I wish I didn't work for you. I've walked away learning nothing here. And I think to the extent, you know, we can build those skills, it'll help. [00:20:35] Retention in companies, it also help people feeling like they understand and they're part of something bigger than themselves because analytics and numbers is a, is a silo game to your point. That's why we have silos. Mm-hmm. Collections understands what really matters to them. Revenue accounting understands what really matters to them. [00:20:51] Treasury understands what really matters to them, but in order to build bridges to have an interconnected finance team mm-hmm. It requires the [00:21:00] unsexy EQ work. That's where the information transfer happens. It's not gonna happen. By us sitting in a room and you taking me to the C level floor, it's gonna happen, you know, over coffee, it's gonna happen over a walk, it's gonna happen over building that intentional relationship, but also communicating information in a way that draws the audience in to care about what you're saying. [00:21:20] So. [00:21:21] Wassia Kamon: So what helped you get to this point? What helped you realize that you needed that skillset to really elevate what you do? [00:21:29] Matthew Harlan: Failure. [00:21:30] Wassia Kamon: Ooh, [00:21:34] Matthew Harlan: I'm saying this not to be from a place of like a high place, but from a place of, I've done this wrong. I'll never forget when I started at Toast, uh, we were looking at, you know, understanding convertible notes and understanding real bonds, and I was doing a presentation, and I'll never forget somebody pulling me aside. [00:21:51] They're like, Hey, really great content. Way too detailed. Nobody's gonna understand what you're talking about. And you also don't want to show [00:22:00] up and present as someone who's a know-it-all because that turns people off, right? Nobody wants to work with someone who feels like they can recite the entire encyclopedia. [00:22:08] It's not attractive. Finding ways to do smaller education sessions, seeing engaging what the audience understands is important before you just give a presentation on a broad subject that's new to the company. And so really kind of understanding how to precede. Hey, you know what? I got this meeting with the CFO, VP of Finance and Director of tax. [00:22:30] This concept is gonna be heavy. We have 45 minutes. The likelihood of everyone walking away with a salient understanding is low. Yeah. So how do I preach the conversation to make sure that we have success? You break the conversation down to building blocks. What I like to call is LEGO blocks, and I remember, you know, the Elena, the CFO at toast would always say, give it to me in a Fisher Price manner. [00:22:52] Right? Don't show me what you know. Help me understand. And I think whenever you're able to do that one, it helps you to understand, [00:23:00] because you're not starting at this high level. You're breaking it down to like the most basic concepts in order to disseminate the information. But it also helps you to be a better communicator. [00:23:09] And so when you're developing the content, you're thinking about who you're presenting to, you're able to kind of adjust your output, what you say, how you say it in a way that's digestible. And so I think, um, one, so, so to answer your question, I think failure of just like doing it wrong mm-hmm. And having people on your team that have enough trust in you and confidence to say, Hey, I would do it differently. [00:23:32] And look, every company is different, right? No leader is the same. But I do think holistically we can all kind of learn from that strategy of breaking down concepts to be understood versus communicating concepts. Because we want to just get the information out there. You're watering a rock and it's not working. [00:23:53] It's not gonna work. Yeah. [00:23:55] Wassia Kamon: That's amazing. And now look at you now, chief Treasury Officer at a [00:24:00] treasury platform. It must be full circle. Like what was that transition like for you? I wanna hear it all. Yeah, [00:24:06] Matthew Harlan: I think, you know, one of the things I want to say is that I think the treasury function does prep you to think more than, think about more than just the numbers, right? [00:24:14] You have to be a communicator. You have to kind of go fish and hunt. You have to understand the business. You have to kind of go down at mm-hmm. Balanced level. I think building those skills are representative of what's really needed for a startup. You can kind of copy and paste in a way, like when you think about the sales process or really innovating how we do things. [00:24:32] Mm-hmm. It requires you to go down to the most nascent level to fully understand it and then work your way back up. And I think every process within a startup could follow that methodology. I've seen that it, it worked really well, or at least it's working well for me. And so I think Treasury kind of gave me a springboard to think about, wow, I'm more diverse as a leader. [00:24:53] I have a more diverse skillset. It's more than just interpreting the p and l and financial statements or giving a presentation on free [00:25:00] cash flow. I can understand go to market treasure, I can understand sales, I can understand partnerships, and so I think that gave me a view or maybe even a mirror to say I can do a lot more. [00:25:11] And I think sometimes. Us finance people, we don't give ourself enough credit to kind of expand our wings. We just wanna follow these like very strong trench marks of, okay, I'm gonna be, you know, I'm gonna go from jail accountant to controller to chief accounting officer, and that's like all I can do. And that we get stuck at some point where we can't see anything beyond the ceiling that we've created for ourselves. [00:25:34] And so I think continuous learning is one. Something that's helped me is like not putting myself in a box of, I'm just an ex. But allowing myself to develop as a leader, as a professional, and then also taking risk, right? Treasury is really known for taking risk with measure. We're prudent, we're not hedge funds. [00:25:52] Uh, we want preservation of capital, but also we want to increase utilization of cash. And so that requires some [00:26:00] level, not a lot, some level of risk taking. And so I think I just learned like taking risk is good, just as long as you can kind of measure. A range of possibilities of outcomes and just do it right. [00:26:10] Like everyone ha we all have one life to live. We don't have a lot of time here. Yes. And so you have to decide who you want to be, how you wanna shape the world, and what skills you need to get there and, and just go for it. [00:26:21] Wassia Kamon: Awesome. So what excites you mo most about your current role? [00:26:25] Matthew Harlan: Yeah, I think it's so dynamic. [00:26:27] No day is the same. There's a lot of context switching, which I think kind of has helped maybe create a stronger business athlete. You need to, you know, one conversation you're talking about, you know, strategic vision of the company or another conversation. You're talking about product rollout, another conversation. [00:26:44] You're talking about go to market strategy and content. Another conversation. You're talking about the sales process. And so I think being able to be versatile across many different mediums of a company has allowed me to have a greater appreciation for how [00:27:00] companies work. I think a lot of times. Within finance, you always hear this like, why can't they do X? [00:27:05] And why can't we get this number to be where we want it to be? And sometimes we don't have an appreciation for what the sales team is doing, right? Mm-hmm. We don't have an appreciation for what marketing is doing. And so I think being able to see it from this view has allowed me not only to deepen my understanding, but also to have a greater appreciation. [00:27:22] Like some of this stuff is hard, right? And it can't just be solved. Like we can't just go chase the numbers. But finding ways to maybe get more collaborative with teams in order for us to get the output that we desire. [00:27:33] Wassia Kamon: Oh, I love it. And I like how you said business athlete. I never thought about it that way. [00:27:39] Where did you get the concept from? Like when you said it, I was like, yeah, that's really what it is. You have to build so many things, so many muscles, so many trends. [00:27:46] Matthew Harlan: Yeah. Yeah, because I, I think that's what it is. If you think about the concept of an athlete. Kind of working on your craft, and if you're playing a sport, you're not always doing the same thing, right? [00:27:57] Let's just use basketball for an example. There's [00:28:00] offense defense, there's team collaboration in terms of running plays. There's the coach on the sideline, giving the plays, the distraction of the audience. And so there's so many things that need to be taken to account and still you are required and you are looked at to work within a system or a player. [00:28:18] So if everyone on the court was trying to score a bucket at the same time, there would be chaos. And so the reason why I like kind of the, the use of the word athlete is you have to understand your place in time. What is my role in this company? And then doing that to the best of your ability. So for example, if you are a rebounder and you're not necessarily gonna be the best scorer on the team. [00:28:38] Go out and be the best freaking rebounder that you can be. Yes. That's gonna help your team win. And I think when we think about ourselves that way, we don't have to be all things right? Mm-hmm We don't have to do all things. If we can just execute really well on the tasks that we've been given, it's gonna help the broader context of the team win. [00:28:55] A lot of times you have people that want to be heroes of every function and they start to bleed over [00:29:00] because ultimately maybe they want to be, you know, like you one day and the CFO, and they think the way to get there is to. Just take the ball and ball hog. Mm-hmm. But it actually hurts the team. Yeah. [00:29:09] And so finding ways to kind of be deepened in your, in your expertise, I think allows you to be called upon for other areas, right? You, maybe you're a good rebounder, maybe you have a defensive skill, and now you're able to kind of uncover that 'cause you did really good. That's how you earned your spot on the team. [00:29:24] I think thinking sometimes of yourself and your profession in a sense of athletics really helps you understand what's going on and understand how to, how to be successful. [00:29:33] Wassia Kamon: Awesome. And were you an athlete growing up? [00:29:36] Matthew Harlan: I'm a recreational athlete now, so yeah, so I got, you know, ice on my knees every now and then because, uh, things don't work the same when you get older. [00:29:44] I ran track and I played basketball, hence the basketball reference. And I think the game of basketball is multifaceted. I think there's a lot we can learn from it. Especially on the finance team. So yes, I did grow up playing sports. [00:29:56] Wassia Kamon: That is awesome. Yeah. I grew up playing food, but that's a different [00:30:00] topic. [00:30:02] I did play a sport growing up. I was, I loved soccer, but the only spot that where they will take me was goalie. They were like, well, here, don't try to run this field. Stay here. And I was one of the best goalies. So I love why, how you said that. If it's, if that's what you good at. Just be the best person in it. [00:30:22] 'cause I was a good goal. Yeah. I was. I was proud of myself. [00:30:25] Matthew Harlan: And that's needed, right? Like if you were, although you're not out running the field, right? You're not out procuring the contracts, you're not out chasing information. You're more or less the stop gap. [00:30:35] Wassia Kamon: Mm-hmm. If you [00:30:36] Matthew Harlan: match your job, you, you could cause the team to lose. [00:30:39] Wassia Kamon: Oh yes. [00:30:40] Matthew Harlan: Severely your defensive measures of protecting that net. Could make or break the game quite honestly. So, yeah, I think, you know, sometimes we like to diminish the value of our roles. Mm-hmm. Because we're not out running and we're not not kicking the ball. We're not a mild fielder. We're not a striker messy M mba. [00:30:58] Yeah, exactly. We're not, we [00:31:00] don't have the limelight. But your role is important. And I, I think I like the goalie reference because I think to some extent treasury, treasury folks are goalies. Mm-hmm. Right. We control the assets, we control things from getting out in a reverse way. We control making sure that the money is protected. [00:31:15] And so yeah, I like the reference of a goal. I think that's really great. [00:31:18] Wassia Kamon: Thank you so much for sharing such great experience. I love your view on how do you develop yourself, especially becoming more than just a number person for the next generation of finances or what, what advice would you say for people who are trying to grow, but sometimes we feel like we don't have enough time or we don't feel like we have the right people. [00:31:38] What would you advise? [00:31:40] Matthew Harlan: I think this kind of goes to a conversation you and had, you and I had earlier, we all stand on the shoulders of other people. The best way to get somewhere is you can't, if you climb, you're only gonna get so far. But if someone's lifting you up, you're gonna go much further, much faster. [00:31:54] And so mentorship is imperative. I think you can't do [00:32:00] it alone. You, your mind will tell you that, right? I can. I got it. But you're gonna need relationships. You're gonna need connections. You're gonna need people. To speak about you in rooms that you're not yet present in. And I think learning how to build those solid mentorship connections is important. [00:32:16] Now, it is an art, not a skill. It, it's more of an art than a skill. Mm-hmm. Because I think a lot of times when people approach mentorship, it's, what can I gain out of it? Right. It's, it's very self-focused. I just want to be the best tech, and so let me find people that I can kind of take their Infinity stones and become mm-hmm. [00:32:33] The Thanos of my industry. Thanos, [00:32:36] Wassia Kamon: I love, I love Marvel movies, [00:32:40] Matthew Harlan: right. But I, I think also finding in whatever ways things that you can give. And so I've, you know, I've asked mentors out for coffee and I'll, I'll pay for coffee. Because I'm using your time. You didn't have to do this for me. Nothing about this relationship says you have to do this. [00:32:56] You're doing it because you want to. And so finding ways to be appreciative, you know, of [00:33:00] people I think is really important to kind of building those strong mentorship relationships. [00:33:04] Wassia Kamon: Awesome. I, I love that. So when I'm in Houston, I'm gonna act like your mentor and you are gonna offer me a barbecue. [00:33:12] Matthew Harlan: I got some great coffee places so we can set that up. [00:33:14] Definitely. [00:33:15] Wassia Kamon: Yes. So from your mentors probably, what would you say would be the best career advice you've ever received? [00:33:23] Matthew Harlan: Yeah, I wanna give a shout out here to Easton Dixon over at Bain. He doesn't know this, I don't think I've ever told him this, but there was a point where I was actually thinking about leaving treasury. [00:33:34] I had sent him a cold, you know, LinkedIn message and you know, was just trying to ask for some advice. Also, shout out to Jonathan Lynch over at Waters as well. He is someone that also offered a lot of advice in the early days, and I wanted to leave the profession. I didn't think it was for me, I didn't think I can do it. [00:33:51] Part of that has to do with representation. I didn't see me anywhere. Mm-hmm. And so, um, I was like, you know, is this something I really want to do? Can I be successful [00:34:00] at this or is it gonna take me. 50 years in order to become a manager, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think with, you know, having those conversations with people that have kind of more or less like architected the pathway and have reached and they are the future me of what I wanted to be, I think they were able to gimme really sage advice that really allowed to me to have a perspective shift to continue, you know, on this path, which I'm thankful I did. [00:34:25] And so, yeah, I think the best advice, you know, I would give to the next generation, of course is mentorship, but. Finding people that you can be honest with, that can be honest with you. Mm-hmm. That have nothing to gain either way. And, uh, you know, and, and take their advice. He, he the wisdom. [00:34:41] Wassia Kamon: Yes. I think the listening part is often what we missed. [00:34:45] At least it was true for me. And I realized that I had a lot of people in my life that was at some point giving me advice, but I was just, uh, born. I wasn't listening. And then I failed. And then I was like, [00:35:00] okay, I'm gonna do it. And, and I think listening at first is, is, is great. [00:35:05] Matthew Harlan: I agree. Yeah, I agree. You know, you may think you know it all, but there's things that you haven't experienced. [00:35:09] Maybe you never experienced your first layoff, you haven't experienced a bad boss. [00:35:13] Wassia Kamon: Yes. You [00:35:14] Matthew Harlan: haven't experienced, you know, just workplace conflict. And I think speaking to people that have had those battles can, uh, help give you some perspective on how to handle yourself. [00:35:24] Wassia Kamon: Yep. Yep. Love it. We're coming up of time, but wanted to ask you one last question. [00:35:29] What's your favorite thing to do outside of work? [00:35:33] Matthew Harlan: Oh, man. Okay. [00:35:35] Wassia Kamon: You party too much. It's like, oh, okay. Let me think about it. [00:35:40] Matthew Harlan: I, yeah, I, I guess my partying is usually over like, uh, bluey with the kids or something like that. So if I'm honest, I probably would say being a dad favorite thing to do outside the work. [00:35:51] I think understanding like how. Your presence and your words and your actions can impact little lives is like phenomenal to me. [00:36:00] It blows my mind every day that I get to do that. And uh, and my kids are a lot of fun. We do so many things together. So I think being a dad is like the funnest thing. Probably recreational on my own would be, you know, I like art, I love music, and so, you know, I like to chill out at a jazz, you know, venue or. [00:36:18] Go to a museum is, is usually what I do to kind of decompress. Most recently actually, I've been trying to get back on the basketball court. My body's not really participating, so I need to figure that out. [00:36:28] Wassia Kamon: I need to figure that out. Switch to soccer, become a goalie, switch to soccer. [00:36:34] Matthew Harlan: Okay. That may be my next move. [00:36:35] I may have to get out there and, and just see if someone's willing to allow me to be a goalie, but, you know, participating in sports, um, has been it. [00:36:44] Wassia Kamon: Good for you. Good for you. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Really appreciate all your insight. So helpful. I took mental notes myself and I know it will help so many people. [00:36:55] Matthew Harlan: No, thank you for having me. I think this is a great platform and I would encourage, I. Others to [00:37:00] participate and to join you in getting this knowledge out there. [00:37:04] Wassia Kamon: And that's it for today's episode of The Diary of A CFO. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to like, review, subscribe, and share with others. [00:37:15] Our website is the diary of a cfo.com. That's where you can find all the episodes. Access all the guest profiles, see their bios and their social media links. It is also the place where you can apply to be a guest on the podcast and have information about how you can sponsor the show. As always, if there is any topic you would like me to cover in the future, just email me at ask at the diary of a cfo.com. [00:37:42] Again, the email is ask at the diary of a cfo.com. See you soon.