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Leading in the Digital Era with David Christie · Humanity Working

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I I I used to think like I was part-time, you know, pop psychologist, part-time cheerleader, part-time marketer of what my team was doing.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's all these additional things that are sort of in a in a in a team leader's um not even really specified in the job description.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, Matt here.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: A little while back I had a chance to catch up with an old colleague, mentor, and friend, David Christie.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: David has a long career in health tech, and he's always struck me as someone who thinks deeply about how to make teams work well and what makes a good leader.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I always learn things when I talk to David, and hopefully you will too today.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: So enjoy my chat with David Christie.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: David, you've been a leader in a major company for a long time, but we all start somewhere.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me about the first thing you did that really helped you get on your current path to where you are in your career.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think probably the first thing that was the most helpful to me or impactful early on was um learning how to manage projects well.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and moving from being uh somebody who participated in getting stuff done to being somebody who was now coordinating the work, coordinating resources to deliver a particular project.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one major, fairly major thing, at least certainly was for me at the time, was um project managing and ERP system implementation.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and this was back in the time when when people were still using paper records for things like stock.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was not just a technical implementation, it was a fairly substantial change management um aspect, you know, people that were in there later in their careers that had only ever done it on uh on paper, and now we're asking them to do it on a computer, and it just wasn't as common as it is these days.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a big lift too.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when you think about the emergence of computers hitting everyone's desk, uh and uh for folks who are technically inclined, it was, you know, oh, this is great, I'll figure it out, I'll learn how to use it.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, you know, uh we've both been in pharma for a long time.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I remember typewriters on a lot of desks.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: What did you what did you learn there that helped you get from there to here?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And how have you seen that evolve over time?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, well, I mean, the thing over time, uh well, first of all, what what I found, I I guess just um a level of empathy I found was very important, trying to understand where the other person was coming from, I found to be, you know, very helpful.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I I can clearly remember like a warehouse manager who's just this you know little guy later in his career, and and this sort of stuff was very um, I don't want to say bewildering.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was up for the challenge, but it was it was so different from his normal, what he what he normally experienced.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so trying to understand that and try to see it through his eyes, and then figuring out how we could do things that would make him and people like him more ready to use, you know, what we were what we were bringing to the table because it was going to have significant business benefits.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: For him, it was a big change, but for the business it was going to be a substantial positive.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, and he was on board with it.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was just a question of sort of figuring out how how he was seeing things and then how we could produce stuff that would you know make a difference to to him.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think how it's how it's changing now.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, it's an interesting one.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I have kids now, um, grown, grown kids, and I I find that they um are much more consumers of of things, right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: They they consume things, smartphones, apps, and whatever, but they don't seem to have the same level of curiosity, curiosity that that I did about how things work and and um why things are the way they are.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're just I don't know, it's just a difference.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: They just seem to be more ready to accept what's in front of them and don't not necessarily think through well, how did it get to be that way?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know how does a smartphone work?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Who where who puts it together?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Where does the software come from?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: It all you know shows up and they're just the consumers of it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and the pace of it is so fast, right?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're all now getting these app changes on a regular basis.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know about you, but I I just find some of the app changes don't really go forward, some of them go backwards.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I it feels like to me, you know, sometimes the changes seem almost arbitrary.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not really any any major advantage, but that might be um that might be me just showing my grumpiness.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think a lot of people in this space and a lot of people that we've we've talked to on the podcast, especially, um learn a great deal from failure.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if you have any uh failure experiences and and examples of a real failure and what you got from from those types of things and and what you learned, what you bring to the new to a new experience based on those failures.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I I think um there are things that I would definitely obviously do.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think a lot of people would say that there's definitely things that they would do differently, you know, and and I I think one thing that I was um slow to pick up was a fairly um specific thing in the pharmaceutical industry, which is to do with computer system validation.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're working in when you're working in a particular industry that has certain um expectations, you you can sometimes have a mindset where you're trying to put a flaw in, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you that and if you let that over be the main thing, then you you're forgetting how you could actually help things grow better, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to minimize loss, but at the same time, you should also be thinking about how you can help the business grow.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think uh if I was doing some things in my career again differently, it would be to offer way more in terms of how technology could help um the business uh grow.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I feel like I've done a lot of the putting flaws in, and that's it's important because you don't want to, you know, have a um down, you know, have the computer, you know, lose a company because you haven't done things properly from a computer system point of view.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: But my goodness, there's so much opportunity um, you know, on that side.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I I would, if I was doing things again, I would really try and um push more of that and I would get a lot more comfortable.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: See, once again, there's this mindset on the floor stuff, right?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: The floor, you don't want to have any kind of mistakes.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to knock them out, you're trying to show things are done very well through things like documentation and stuff.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: But when you when you're trying to grow the company, you have to be comfortable with mistakes.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be comfortable that you're moving forward and you're learning something and you're and you're adapting.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just like those cloud vendors we were talking about a moment ago that are pivoting and they're adding new new features and all that sort of stuff, that's that's them learning um and getting a better understanding of what's you know what's being used and what the possibilities are.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I really like that as an idea.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I I you know I would do more of that if I was you know going over and doing this again.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point because it because the idea of sort of failing fast and learning quickly and adapting really quickly and being flexible and agile with your systems is sort of still new.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can I can I give you one more failure?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I I talked about a couple of sort of domain areas there, but but uh in um you know validation and then you know sort of agile learning.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the one one area that managers and leaders might um understand is um having a failure around around the team members that you've got.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and making calls, making the call about when you might have people that need to develop.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: How do you when do you make the decision to you know basically say this is not working?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: How uh you know, because you you're gonna be judged on your your team's output.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously you want your team to develop, um, and you want to develop your individu, you know, the individual team members, and that's all great and whatever.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I think some some of my failures I would put down to the fact of trying to hold on to that for too long and not making the call about saying, no, look, this isn't gonna work.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I need to, I need to make a change.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and even, you know, I I love the phrase, you either change the people or you change the people, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and being able to pull the plug on on certain things or adapt or find out even if the mindset of the people that you're working with are willing to go along and and change.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, would you say that's uh you know, that's an aspect of great teams is is their ability to uh adapt?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um certainly adapt and be resilient.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you know, sometimes you're depending on deep domain skills in a team to solve a problem.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, you know, where that's the case, it may not be so much adapting to a changing and rapidly changing environment.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: It might just be about resilience and and and figuring out what needs to happen and putting it in place.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes though, you know, uh, you know, and you could think of things like retail examples and all that sort of stuff, that adaptability and being able to, you know, do A-B testing and all that sort of stuff to figure out, you know, how that kind of adaptability.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that in that space, sure.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, from my point of view, in the the kinds of teams that I've worked in, it's been more of the former.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: I need the domain expertise, we need to know how such and such a system or a set of processes need to work.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have a vision for what that's going to look like in the future, working with with people that are going to actually be using the system and then and then putting it in, you know, figuring out putting it in place.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you touched on something earlier too that reminds me in terms of the team makeup where you said, you know, uh it, you know, there's the foundation, but then there's the vision of like, how could we help the business?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you need people who can kind of get a big picture, can pull together and synergize and and and and see where you could improve the business uh as part of your team.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And those kind of people are important too.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: They might not have the deep domain on each piece, but the generalist idea of like, you know, if we put all these together, we might have something really special here.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it's really interesting.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see any um what would you say is like a big difference between like a great team member versus a current or existing or potential leader?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So like what what what what have you seen that really drives the differences there between good team members, great team members, and leaders of the team?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um, you know, this thing that you talked about there about the vision, I mentioned resilience and all this stuff.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Every team has builds its own story over time.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily set out to do that.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But what ends up happening is that people look back on their story, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And of what happened with their team.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we started off with this and then we did that, and you know, and oh boy, that was terrible that time when such and such happened.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and they build, you know, good teams end up building a camaraderie around that.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think team leaders really facilitate that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Good team, really good team leaders facilitate that, right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um everyone getting a lot, you don't all have to agree.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: You don't, in fact, uh, you know, uh constructive disagreement is is probably uh a characteristic.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I haven't done the research, but I'd say it's probably a characteristic of a high performing team because you've got to you you may not not everyone is right all the time.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if you get too everyone thinking the same thing, you get groupthink too.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, constructive disagreement and then figuring out how a team leader is going to help facilitate that and help build what will eventually be this narrative over time because they're guiding the team through, right?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Team members are contributing their own um pieces, of course, and and really good team members know their role and it's well defined and they can and they deliver it and they they feel they feel good about that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: The team leader is molding all of that, making sure it's all moving in the right direction.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And team leaders are worried about the team as a whole, and also how the team's work is being represented.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I I I used to think like I was part-time, you know, pop psychologist, part-time cheerleader, part-time marketer of what my team was doing.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's all these additional things that are sort of in a in a in a team leader's um, not even really specified in a job description, but you know, you gotta you gotta sort of do that to because your job is to make the team as successful as it possibly can be.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they're contributing their bit.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're doing as a team leader is different.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you, you, you know, and I I I went through a period in my career where I could do everybody's job in my team.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized that in the next job I had I couldn't.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the that was really um a pivotal point because I had to figure out now I had to do things differently myself, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Not just not just um filling in for people with their maybe they missed something or whatever.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have to trust them that they're gonna do it and figure it out manage manage to a total rather than you know managing individual pieces.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's deep.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the trust and delegation, when you realize I can't do all of your jobs, and just just a tangent on that.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd love to get your opinion on that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So when when you have folks in a team who uh you have to coach the idea that, hey, I'm not gonna be the best at this, because I I there's there's times when you know people would want their boss to at least know their job and get the appreciation for it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and that I think is a is an intangible, like you said, of like I'm not gonna be as good at you at this.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you're here.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I got your back that is so important, especially as you move up in organizations where you're, you know, a few layers from touching the work, but you have to understand and get an appreciation for it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a a balance that's really important in good teams and good leaders that can that can make sure their team knows that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no like resentment, like, oh, he could never do my job, or if they go on vacation, you're not their backup, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, that's that's the thing that that's really interesting.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you you brought that out.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we talk a lot on this podcast about sort of the double-edged sword of technology, right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Which is it can help you when it works.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it can it can just paint you into corners.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: There, there's so many times it's too much.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many technologies and they're not integrated, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um give me an example of technology where it's made your community, the people you serve, your group uh or your organization's life worse.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I do think, you know, when you think of some of these technologies, there are knock on, there are knock-on problems that um that you may not even think about at the time, but that that emerge.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: When people are at home, the workday um increased.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, first of all, it sort of impinged onto the commuter time in the pandemic, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then it got even longer, perhaps.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: The technology seamlessly enables all of that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's no problem from a technology point of view, it will just keep going, right?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and it will consume more and more every day.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So then then it puts it back onto the individuals outside of the technology to say, well, okay, what am I actually going to be comfortable doing?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do I actually want to be?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: How am I going to fit in walking the dog or going to the dentist or you know, just going out for dinner with my wife?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: How how does that all work now?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the technology probably is agnostic to all of that, right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can turn it off, um, you know, uh, but you know, if you're just gonna sit here and this has happened to me, I actually got rebuked by uh one of my team members over the 4th of July weekend because that person said, What are you doing?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're sending emails on the 4th of July, you know, you should be outside.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that person was right.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, I I and so I actually emailed my team.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, look, I'm sending you stuff, don't read it till you get back in the office.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because you had to read that, you have to read that email to say don't read the elements.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: But but um don't read these so you get back in the office because I'm doing it because I feel like I need to to get on top of it.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's me managing my time, but I have no expectation that you're gonna do the the same thing, you know.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we might need to get explicit about that because the technology won't do that for you, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not in an easy way.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're starting to see it a little bit.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Outlook does that now, or it says, hey, it's after hours.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Can you put this, you know, if you turn it on?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: You sent send it tomorrow morning, yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Which is which is really cool.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think and then 40 emails will turn up at 7 a.m.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you just get bombarded.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was like when you take it when you take a plane flight and you're offline and you do all your email and then you connect up and it sends 400 emails in a minute.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's always a good one.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if you were if you were to give advice to the to the 22 20-year-old you right now, uh on how to navigate the world of tech-enabled uncertainty and ambiguity, uh, you're coming into it now.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: What what what would you tell yourself?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say jump on.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, it's funny, you know, at the start, I talked about how I was doing this the this work, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I and we would talk about typewriters.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned typewriters on this.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I actually thought I would be in the last generation of people that wouldn't be using computers, which I look back on now and think that's hilarious.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not quite sure why I thought that, but I can remember thinking that at the time.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, so that they're not going away.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if anything, at all, you know, we all say it it all speeds up.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you might as well jump on and figure it out and and expose yourself to, you know, different things, find the areas that that make, you know, that you're interested in, you know, is a you know, I've got one son that's interested in things like urban renewal and revitalization and all that sort of stuff.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: If that's your thing, then figure out, you know, that's what you like doing away from a screen.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but how what what sort of things digitally would help you with that?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and be open to to different um possibilities of doing it.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I really would say for a 20-year-old, uh, understand how businesses work, um, understand, you know, where the money comes from, why it comes, and and because I think if you can do that and and where it goes, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: How businesses spend money, if you can do that, you can start to understand, you know, why you would do things, right?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and you can you can get more into the routine of of saying why something matters, right?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna be, is it gonna make us money, is it gonna save us money, is it gonna make somebody more efficient?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is this you know, you might have expensive resources like scientists, for example.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Could you do something that's now gonna make them more effective in their in their jobs, right?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you you can't really easily do that if you don't really understand how business works.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so I would not get so, you know, for that, my my kid that's interested in urban revitalization, or we can get so interested in that domain that I kind of left out well how how does a business work?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would try and do both, and then you could have the technology, you know, piece that you can sort of, I think these, you know, when you're at that age, you can pick it up pretty uh pretty rapidly.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that uh when it comes to these types of things that the the the leader illustrating you know walking the walk themselves has an impact on on being able to make the changes take place in a big organization?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um certainly, certainly.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean modeling is just you you're always as a leader, you're always doing modeling, whether you are consciously doing it or not.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: You you you are modeling.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know how you do things is essentially, you know, in you would have seen this in in your career too.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: You you notice that certain leaders might have certain verbal ticks or something like that, things that they like saying or whatever, suddenly they start turning up in emails from other people.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's that it's that sort of powerful.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, you do you when you're in the in the leader roles, and as you move up through leader roles, every time you've got to be conscious of the fact that you're you're modeling for the people that are in your team, you're modeling for your peers, um, and you're you're also you know showing something to you know to the people that are you know in more senior roles as well.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's it's it's so um, you know, I I I say this sometimes to my team, you know, because we I I'm working, I have an IT role, I've got an IT role for years.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Almost every IT role is actually a people role, really.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are some very deep engineering roles, very, you know, very specific ones, uh, but uh the vast majority of them are actually people-oriented roles.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's no, there's no very little you're not gonna have much success if you're not going to.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, unless you want to go and and and sit in a dark room and be very deep with engineering and all that sort of stuff, which is it's fine as a career.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, outside of that, if you can't show that you're doing something for somebody that's gonna make some some benefit and be able to explain that, uh, you know, I mean, if it it's a good idea.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta, if you can build or if you can do it that way, you'll you'll I think you'll find yourself creating more value and being seen to be more valuable.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you can inculcate that in a team, of course, then you're you're really starting to, you know, do that at scale.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been really, really great, David, to catch up.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh a lot of great insights for people, and I think a lot of really interesting uh topics to cover.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my pleasure, Matt.
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