Latest / Built to Perform / Built to Perform with James Hallworth – Ep.4: Vanessa Hale on Change in Real Estate

Transcript

Built to Perform with James Hallworth – Ep.4: Vanessa Hale on Change in Real Estate · Built to Perform

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The simple fact that we have a definition for an owner-landlord versus a tenant and me simply saying verses would suggest we are on different sides of the table.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Cities have an innate ability to change commercial real estate.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: We sometimes were inside of it, so we think it's really, really slow, but cities have always changed.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Vanessa and uh welcome to the podcast.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to have you on and really look forward to really getting into the thick of it in terms of change management and commercial real estate.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but first I think what I'd really like to hear about is who are you and uh why do you do what you do?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hi James, thanks for having me on today.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm Vanessa Hale.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I head up research and strategy for Barb Real Estate in the UK.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh why do I do what I do?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I suppose reality is I'm I'm an accidental into real estate.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I had a touching, a slight taste of real estate when I was in my high school ages, uh, probably picking up from the accent.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm originally from the US.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was really boring.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Went and did a degree in something completely different, actually have a bachelor's in food science, and then realized actually I kind of do like the built environment.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, decided to go back and do my master's.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, unfortunately, finished that during the GFC.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't a great time to be uh looking for a job.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I guess I say I'm an accidental.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know exactly what I was going to do in the built environment.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, it seemed like it was the world is your oyster sort of concept.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's such a big part of our world that there was lots of opportunities to kind of try a whole bunch of different things.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose real estate from a US perspective was maybe a little different than uh a UK or European perspective.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it it allowed me to try a lot of different things, and I did a little bit of tenant rep and a little bit of investment and and landed in research, and it really kind of sat with me that this was a way in which I could influence lots of different parts of uh the wider industry through data.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, food science to commercial real estate, that is a that is a pretty uh a pretty big change of direction.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: You decided it was of interest.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: What what was the the catalyst for that that change for you?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was very fortunate that I had a lot of opportunities to travel internationally, uh as well as I suppose domestically within the US.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And everywhere you go, there's that unique factor that the built environment brings.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, whether it's through the architecture, whether it's through just the pavements and the interactions with people and places.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that there was just this whole kind of industry that I didn't really understand and didn't really know about in its truest form.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And from that standpoint, it was like, well, people invest in this, we live in them, we you know, go to restaurants, we we go to work in them.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, there's probably something here.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's everywhere.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so actually for me, the ability to be able to continue to travel and see opportunities and see exciting places was like, well, actually, this sounds like probably an industry that kind of ticked a lot of personal boxes for me.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then your master's was in what parts of the my master's was hospitality and tourism with a focus in real estate.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So very much kind of that travel, leisure, hospitality side of it really kind of floated my boat, I suppose.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Very um on topic right now as well.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Very um that's great.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then then you've ended up in not a niche, but a part of commercial real estate industry, which probably not a huge amount of people from outside the industry or probably within the industry really knows exists too much either, which is the research side of things, which is a very different side of the industry, which most people are aware of, I'd say.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and again, I think um probably because I had the food science and the analytical brain, I suppose the element of the research and data came into the kind of forefront.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, I think for me, I'm a forward-thinking individual.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably why innovation and and and thinking through uh the aspects of of how we how we make change and implement it is where the research comes in.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I constantly am looking for, I suppose, best practice and challenging the status quo.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly that's just part of my human nature.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't like to do repetitive tasks.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, any opportunity to be able to share knowledge uh is uh a great way to inspire others to take forward actually implementation.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of I suppose that's where I I look at research being able to provide that I suppose linchpin for people.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh so so people are aware, what what does your research cover and and why?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: It might be quite broad, but very very broad.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So uh within the BMP Parabel Real Estate, uh we cover all commercial real estate sectors, which is traditional kind of core real estate, so offices, retail, industrial, and logistics.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But we also cover what I it sounds weird to say alternatives because they're so common these days, but anything with kind of operational beds, alluding to my hospitality, hotels, build-to-rent, uh, single-family rental, PBSA, which purpose-built student accommodation, uh, health care, and senior living, all get kind of covered under the remit within the BMP Parabah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: We also have an estate agency business as well as a rural business.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of do almost the full cycle.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the traditional research outputs will be things like what are the market metrics that have happened in the previous quarter or the previous year that give you whether it's vacancy rates or leasing velocity to uh investment volumes in cap markets, uh, in and actually understanding how the flow of capital is going, whether it's cross-border or domestic.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's the traditional kind of research.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: The part that gets me excited and the reason I go to work every day is actually thinking about the what comes next.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so where we can find signals that say, actually, this is a really interesting trend we're starting to see.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Can we kind of scratch the surface of it a bit further and do a deeper dive?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Where are there elements of information that maybe are the non-traditional metrics that someone might consider and go, well, actually, that aligns with that and that aligns with that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, that could be the next new thing.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it it's quite interesting.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I talked about rental in the senior living markets probably about 10 years ago.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, today it's considered kind of a normal offering that wasn't part of our marketplace.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, those are the kind of things that get me really excited because we're talking about the way people live or work or play.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And those are driving decisions within the investment side of BMP, correct?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: We work very closely with our investment management house.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they will be looking at the things that we're saying.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: They may take them on board, they may not.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they have their funds and they have different drivers between them.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: But uh we work with lots of different clients, and it's high net worth individuals who are investing in commercial real estate all the way to uh in institutional capital that is looking to either move into the UK or already is in the UK.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the broad spectrum of client bases is actually quite wide.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I will have conversations and presentations and discussions with pretty much all of them.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so obviously that's that's one part of what you do.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then also there's the change, not change management, maybe we can class it change management, but it's innovation and change assisting teams and assisting and pushing that agenda as well, which I think you're quite heavily involved in as well.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I I alluded to it slightly in the fact that I'm I'm not I'm a person who doesn't like to do the same thing twice.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for me, constant change is a is part of kind of my built MO.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: But there is uh probably my unofficial hat as leading on our innovation uh from the UK business.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And really that's across all spectrums.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's the very, you know, I suppose, popular, you know, let's talk about AI, but actually it's change management and even simpler things, you know, changing a workflow, talking to uh a new system of implementation on uh either a new piece of software, or actually just going through and going, is this process making sense and following it from kind of point A to point B and actually going all the way to point Z and going, wait a second, why did we do that?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And questioning and challenging.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose the research curiosity bit comes into that, where I'll ask the questions and I have no fear of asking those questions.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm probably slightly in a privileged position in that I'm able to do that, but I I will challenge everyone to make sure that what we're implementing and what we're doing or what what guidance and advice we're providing is indeed um what may be the best thing for the client.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it's a super interesting thing.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're going through a digital transformation project, and I think as part of that journey, going back to that core processes and workflows and and the weird workarounds which people find to get around those problems rather than changing it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um it sort of just happens organically, doesn't it, over time as companies grow and as systems get added in.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you do just need that refresh to go, actually, we need to challenge this.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the you know amazing things is when you have a new employee, you know, join a business, they're you know, the first probably 90 days is like the prime time to have conversations with them because they will be making observations.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose that kind of qualitative listening, which is super important when when they're looking at something and they're asking questions, that you start going, actually, they have a valid point.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is quite, you know, why are we doing that?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which I suppose probably comes from my my previous career before commercial real estate, where that allowed me to really take on board um listening to a consumer or you know, looking at that data and then making uh a judgment call or a full analysis and going, right, we need to change this.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't accept because we've always done it that way.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I hate that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely hate it.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think you hear it a lot.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: You do hear it a lot, unfortunately.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I have the the the the willingness to at least challenge.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think on on that subject, I think we've talked about it previously, but it's commercial real estate.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I I call it class it as kind of like a big oil tanker.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Getting it to change direction takes an extremely long amount of time and a lot of effort.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's really slow.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um as someone who leads on that change, I've got kind of two questions.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why do you think it's so slow?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then two, how do you approach change and get it to happen in a way which isn't like an oil tanker and actually is a little bit more nimble and agile?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: It it is slow.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I would say as an industry, I think we are collectively, you know, maybe a little bit hesitant for change.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you look at you know any innovation curve, there's always those early adopters and then mainstream hits before then finally you get that last probably 15-20 percent.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's probably two things.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: One, uh, I think human nature, we are the path of least resistance definitely is kind of probably built into us as human beings.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that is going to make my life easier or simple.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about it just a second ago with you know, workarounds.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it means that um change requires things to be a little bit painful at times.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I suppose there's an element of understanding it's going to be painful and difficult, and being uh open to that and not pretending like it doesn't exist.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I have sat I very early doors.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I've you know sat in some meetings and you go, oh, it's fine.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: We'll just give everybody the software and off we go.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, dude, that's not gonna work.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be, you know, there's going to be pain points, there's going to be things we need to work through.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and actually um having, I suppose, whether it's doing smaller workshops, smaller POCs, really kind of getting probably 90% of the bugs worked out before you launch anything.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I I'm a real big fan of buy-in.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I suppose as a communicator, the big part for me is having those discussions with the individuals who are going to be impacted.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's on a kind of day-to-day and in your in your kind of work environment.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's harder to do as an industry.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, I think collectively there's probably a certain percentage that are willing to be those early adopters and try and show the path that we could go down.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we're also, I think there's elements of of risk that people have maybe gotten a little burned in the past.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a fear that comes in there.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's it's working through those and then figuring out how we bring everyone to the table to say, right, I recognize your concerns.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's figure out how we can address some of them.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I guess it can, but for me, it boils down to really having those communication barriers kind of broken down so that you can get everyone to the same level playing field to move it forward.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: You you mentioned the the pain part, and uh because commercial real estate is so sensitive to global issues and financial issues and goes through so much regular change uh ch well, regular pain that actually the thought of additional pain with change just feels completely and utterly scary and fearful to to most.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And is that part of the reason why maybe it as an industry we're a bit slower than some of the other industries to to move with change is because they felt so much pain over, you know, on a cyclical cycle.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: It does seem like the pain comes at at a faster pace and it seems to uh be almost status quo, which is a little bit concerning.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um there probably is something in that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: It there's an element in which I think um for many there'd be the the argument of it's not really broken, so why change it?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why fix it?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd like to think that there's people like you and I who are going, that's that's not good enough.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's probably probably another element of why I'm in this industry.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: There is the ability to make things better.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I I think especially probably if I look on my kind of past two decades of career, you know, there's been a lot of really um horrific things that have happened in the real estate markets.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I can I can understand there being that hesitation.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, I I am I'm always a an optimist.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if that's Americanism or or or whatnot, but there is a recognition that you have to acknowledge those risks and that pessimism that they're that's coming from somewhere.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's the point of right, can we get people on board with maybe it's not going to be that way, or try and scenario test it, you know, if we do, if we do do this, what are the options or what are the things?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I I do think there's you know some great new technology that's out there that's helping us to run through some of those ideas before we actually go into full implementation, which should give our industry some level of confidence.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think uh I'm a secret optimist.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm probably very British in that approach.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think for me, as someone who's come in, coming in and doing stuff which is different and trying to implement change in certain places and doing things slightly differently as well throughout my career, but particularly at the moment, from someone who comes in and has come up with the idea of something or is trying to implement something which they've seen, a change or an innovation, and it feels like a no-brainer to that person.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you go in with this no-brainer, it makes complete sense, everything stacks up, and then you're hit with resistance.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um how how do you approach that?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of patience, uh, which I I've had to learn.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I definitely um there's a lot of times where I'll be like, this is a no-brainer.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, slam dunk, this will save X amount of pounds, this will save X amount of hours, you know, whatever it is.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then sitting there and going, right, I've not broken this down in a way in which the individual or the team or or the entity is looking at it and going, yeah, no, we're not interested, and going, okay, I have to get them to understand and recognize the the problem to start with, which sometimes is actually kind of the nuts of it, if you will, um, where you have to get that acknowledgement, get them on a get them on that level playing field, get them to understand where you're coming from.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's okay, I've tried to communicate it in this fashion, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I need to listen again to what they're saying.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there's usually key words that come up, or there's a signal that's you know, in the body language, even, um, where you go, right, they've they've not been on board from the beginning, you know, crossed arms or whatever, and you sit there and go, okay, this is gonna, you know, and it may not actually have anything to do with what is being proposed on the change, it could be something completely, you know, outside your sphere of influence.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then it's recognizing, and I I I think that's probably one of the small things that I've I have learned over over the years, is that never going to get 100%.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can get 80% of the individuals or the you know, the group to to buy in, you're doing pretty well.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Over time, that 20%, probably 15% of it's gonna come on the journey.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's just gonna take a little bit longer for them to get there.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think I think you can I think you can see that when you think about some of the technology that's kind of come into say the workplace over the last 20, 30 years.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can remember literally fax machines when I first started in my career, you know, and they're they're they're you know, I don't know if they even exist anymore.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, for a long time there are people that wouldn't touch them, let alone, you know, a BlackBerry, or, you know, why would I walk around with a computer in my pocket?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I'll get my messages when I get to the office.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know too many people who don't have a mobile phone.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think I think over time um there is that adoption, um, but it's recognizing probably that you're you're never gonna get 100%.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when you kind of can you appreciate that, recognize that, um, I suppose accept it, it makes it a little bit easier.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Still frustrating.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to get 100%, but I think I've acknowledged that that's probably really wishful thinking.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and not to be offended by it.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm definitely not offended by it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, I love that.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's yeah, the adopter curve is so true.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think in our as an industry we're we're the latter stage of it in terms of if you look at all the industries combined as well.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: But um there's a lot of green shoots, I'd say.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think although we're we're kicking industry and we're saying it's slow, actually I feel it there is a change and the recognition that it needs to change as well.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's not just AI lib service either.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I I look I'm I'm the industry is slow in lots of ways, and then there's there's you know, absolutely the most invigorating conversations you can have with someone, and you go, yeah, no, there is definite green shoots.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's probably the beauty of of the industry.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is A, it is so wide, but also the fact simply that uh it does seem like there's a lot, there's a lot of opportunity.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, we uh go down the sustainability route and you can look at the amount of um you know built existing assets that you know ultimately are going to have to be refurbished and repurposed into different things.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I just had a conversation with someone the other day, and we were talking about well, there's this, you know, there's these old houses that became offices, and actually we might make them back into houses, you know.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's quite exciting.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people are realizing actually we don't have to stay with just one one asset class.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can we can widen that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, there's you know limitations, and you know, I think the government's Working, I'm not going political, but I think the government's working to try and unlock some of that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it does allow for people to be a little bit creative, which is exciting.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, we're we're only going to solve the problems with creativity.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and just trying to do what we've always done isn't isn't going to solve those problems anymore.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's exciting.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really exciting.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's doing getting to do things differently and having a different perspective on it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And probably bringing in people from outside the industry, I think, is really important.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I know we get a bit of that in the prop tech side of things because we've got people coming in from a technology and software background, and they they see things slightly differently, um, but also like yourself coming in from a very different mindset and researching side side of things as well.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's also an important change which has got to happen, is bringing in expertise and people who have done stuff differently in different industries and bringing that into the industry.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that I think the industry has become more open and more welcoming to yeah, individuals from different backgrounds, different, you know, thoughts and training and and lots of things.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that can only be, in my opinion, a benefit to the wider industry, um, allowing for that diversity of thought to really play out is super important.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I personally think that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Very briefly touched on it, um, but I think it's the what's next.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Conscious of going down an AI rabbit hole here, but I think uh we we can't get away without touching on it and discussing it to a degree.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: What what is next, in your opinion, for AI and commercial real estate?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And how how do you see that panning out?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think let's not look too far in the future because that's probably a bit crazy.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the next year or two, couple years.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think there's there definitely has been I think there's more excitement around uh I'm gonna focus on the generative AI side.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um we I think there's been I think there's been lots of levels of machine learning, and that's been ongoing for quite a while.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where I think um I could see the next couple of years is really the opportunity for, I suppose, executives and senior leadership to understand where there's opportunity to release the creativity to allow for teams to maybe some of that productive grunt work, if you will, that we all know we have to do, um, you know, gets minimized and actually then allows for that creativity spark to come to the forefront, which to me then is exciting because it's gonna change how the industry behaves and what we what we might see next.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now it doesn't mean we're gonna, you know, I in my head I'm like that's we're not gonna develop a brand new type of building or a new sector or anything like that.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what it it it we don't know what that potential is.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: But that to me is the the kind of the unknown where are we headed next.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh the AI side of it will help alleviate some of those more unique uh thoughts to just appear.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I in I I I can only think about examples where you know we've had small POCs going on a variety of different things, and and I had one team member in particular who said, Oh, you know, I was doing this and and tested it with this with the AI tool and actually gave me something that was totally off the wall, but it made me start thinking completely differently on how I was approaching the the problem I was trying to fix.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the that's the exciting bit for me.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I think uh we're going to head.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: If we can embrace it, uh recognizing the perhaps risks and some of the challenges, and there is some environmental aspects to it as well.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it will also attract that diverse talent that we just spoke about into the industry, which again just adds another layer of excitement for me to look at it and go, well, if we encourage others to enter the industry because they see that we're being a little bit forward-thinking and we're implementing these concepts and these new ideas, then that has to be a good thing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I completely agree.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And something which we talk about quite a lot about in our team company is we're trying to utilize it in a way which allows them to get away from their screen.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, nobody joined commercial real estate world to sit at a computer all day, every day.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: They joined it to get around the real assets and have the human-to-human connection, dealing with tenants, dealing with clients, and being creative in solving problems associated with those real estate assets.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so anything which we can do to empower that and free them from Excel.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Although I'm a big fan of Excel.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um free them from that world is gonna be really powerful.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's like you said, the hype around AI is really exciting and we shouldn't get put off by the hype and that it's hype and there's so much more for it to go at.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, what we can solve in the short term and bring the joy back into people's work life is is going to be such a powerful tool, I think.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in terms of strategy as well, around that, um how are you at BMP looking at implementing?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been we've been doing quite a lot for the um I'm I'm very fortunate within the real estate business, we are we are owned by BMP Baraba, the the bank who has access to a huge amount of data um and indeed has been doing AI things for quite a long time, probably more in the machine learning and and automation than um than perhaps the generative AI that probably more people are familiar with.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um for us, I think from a real estate side, I think we're doing the same journey that most of most of the industry is on.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Doing lots of different POCs, um, trying different things.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: It it is uh from from a strategic standpoint, I think uh we 100% are are invested in using AI, um, but also recognizing it as uh a human-centric kind of approach.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: We are, this is very much about how do we make everyone's jobs that little bit better.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so for a from a strategic standpoint, um, and I I try to stay as involved with the prop tech industry as possible to understand what new ideas are coming through and and where there's opportunities for us to to partner and collaborate and understand and improve workflows and and it may only help one team or one department, um, but that's okay.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I'm not and it probably goes to the not wanting to repeat the same process over and over again.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not uh one size fits all.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's appropriate for for our industry either.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's lots of nuances.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if you talk to someone who's a value or to someone who's perhaps uh, you know, a bricklayer to someone that's doing design or or the like, you know, they all have different needs.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, I think, um a slow recognition that maybe the industry's coming up with is there's not one simple solution out there.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so from a strategic standpoint, it's thinking through um where I suppose where those quick wins are.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be selfish, uh, but also um where where the the long-term wins are for the business and for our clients ultimately.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And not wishing to use a building uh pun, but getting the foundations right, I assume, has been a big project and probably an ongoing project to enable AI to be as powerful as it can be can be for you.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you on that sort of journey in terms of the foundational getting your cloud data into a place which is useful?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm um I'd love to say our foundation is set, but I think that's probably an unfair statement.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um ahead of data would probably kill me.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, um I you know, I think we recognized probably very early doors, there was there was room for improvement.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, our industry is not brilliant with transparency of data as a collective whole.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think there was a recognition that, you know, okay, let's not we we we can maybe influence a little bit from an industry standpoint, but let's get our own house in order.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think we're still in that process.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, kind of feel like everyone.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone is.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's this whole everyone's very happy to say we're we're using AI and we're doing AI, but no one's actually not a lot of people are going back and being brave enough to say, like we just said, and we're in the same boat, is actually no, we're we're making sure our foundations are right to to enable AI to be as powerful as it can be.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, we'll be doing the POC stuff and we'll be doing little bits and pieces, but up until you've got all your data in that usable format, you're you're not going to get all the value which you can get out of it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um but that's also exciting, isn't it?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's super exciting.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much more room for improvement and change.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think huge potential.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And not particularly long projects to get to that point in time either.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And where AI and is developing at the speed it is, the catch-up point is gonna happen and the crossover point's gonna happen pretty soon, isn't it?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: You talked about um data transparency.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's kind of that is that's a pet the peeve isn't the right word, but um something which we deal with a lot and something which we see a lot is data transparency between the landlord, the owner of the building, and the tenants of the building, and smoothing that relationship.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Traditionally, that relationship has always been quite fairly adversarial, I'd say, um, very contractual, and I think that's bread.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: This we're not going to share our data position.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you feel the same there.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you don't and you you've closed that and you solve that problem, then let's I'd love to hear it.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think I'd be a very wealthy woman if I had solved that problem.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: But is that something which you guys are working on?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, I mean, and I think yes, and I I would agree with you.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, the simple fact that we have a definition for an owner-landlord versus a tenant, and me simply saying verses would uh would suggest, you know, that we are on different sides of the table.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think um are we going to remove that entirely?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do we find, and I think there is some best case examples, and of course I'm not thinking of anything right off the top of my head, where when ownership and tenant really truly work together and have that transparency, the work environment for the for the employees I think is more pleasant.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you tend to find, I think, that the retail or the you know, the F and B that's in that building is usually probably a bit more populated.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's a general gist that everyone kind of wants to be in the space.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um where I think the upside has been is there is that this is a benefit to both parties.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a we have a an aligned view on what the objectives are and whether that's environmental and making sure that our you know EPC and our energy and our heating and cooling are all aligned to the difference of uh, you know, I suppose having our lights all on at the same time or turning them all off at the end of the day, you know, all of those things um where there's a benefit.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is figuring out that relationship on um a benefit.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, what is the downside?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if there is one.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think it's ever going well, I don't, I don't, I'm not aware of a time in which where the relationship has shared information and it's backfired.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody can point me to one, then I'd you know I'd be interested to to see the case study.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's just a reticence because we've positioned each other to be on the different sides of tables rather than actually collectively just working together.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think there's more upside stories than downside.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think as as goals are aligning, especially in the ESG side of things and the sustainability side, I think there is that closing of that gap.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think in in in retail, for example, there seems to still be a a very big divide on on that side of defence.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Mainly because maybe some of the retailers are just such big beasts themselves and similarly as big or bigger than some of the landlords, then that data sharing piece does become difficult as well, doesn't it?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things which you you talk about and what you've been doing at BMP is building organi building an organization um which goes through change, is ready for change.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you prepare a company like your company or another company which you're working with for you know the change which is coming, which obviously one of them being AI and other future disruptions which may surface?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think I used to start off with scaring the pants off of everybody, um, which didn't always always didn't always go over so well.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I and no, I I I I joke slightly, but you know, I think there is an element of not frightening in the sense of you know the world is ending um scenarios, but actually start playing through different stories, different scenarios, uh showcasing some examples.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I kind of talked about it trying to be uh from a research standpoint, forward thinking, looking at those signals and saying, have you paid attention to this?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, did you did you notice that, you know, everyone's doing Etsy and Depop and all you know the vintage shopping?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that actually mean for normal high street retailers that are you know more in the fast fashion world?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And thinking through, you know, why is that?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just because everybody wants to dress like the 70s, or is it actually uh financially motivated, or you know, or is everyone getting back into a maker's mode and starting to kind of ask questions, be curious.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you can get people to start thinking through that, I think I've found that that's more successful than the scaring everybody um scenario.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that's that's it's a lot of storytelling, it's a lot of um prompting.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't think it's ever a great idea to pretend to know the all the answers um as well.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think that's maybe something I've learned over the years.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot around you may have really strong opinions uh as to the direction that you think something could go, but you actually, as an as as a change leader, have to be in a position to recognize you might have it wrong, um, which is super important to probably recognize as well.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or indeed that somebody else actually may have a better idea or plan to implement, uh still to get to the same solution, but maybe a different route that you hadn't thought about, um, and recognizing that you know it's it's not all coming from one individual brain and it it has that collective uh opportunity for for people.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: And when you are then successful, I think one or two times, then that traction builds um and you get that trust, which is probably a really big one, which I haven't mentioned, um, where people recognize right you're being credible um in what you're saying and what you're you're talking through.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen how that has resulted in a positive change.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's probably where you get that final 15%.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, credible approach rather than trying to be the oracle.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Have you got any examples?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a really simple one um would be when I suppose for me, um, I I talked about uh I was reminded of this probably about 10 years ago.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I started talking about uh e-mobility.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And ever, you know, not I was not talking about having flying saucer jetson style type mobility, um, but really had seen um through some travel and through some research, you know, there was there seemed to be a a big move to um probably less boris bike, lime bike scenario, but actually more into kind of the the the lime scooter genre, um, and recognizing that people would want to have that independence on on moving around, but in a slightly different way than perhaps had done in the past.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I know bikes have been around forever, so I'm not suggesting it was shockingly new.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I was talking about it for quite a long time, and and a lot of people are like, yeah, no, you know, take London, for example.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: We've got the tube, we've got the overground, uh, we walk around, boris bikes were around, you know, we're we're fine.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I kind of was reminded of it uh probably uh probably a month or two ago when somebody said, Yeah, I actually do remember when you told me that, you know, the e-mobility was going to take over.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there's very few places in central London at least where you don't run into someone or nearly get run over by someone on a on a scooter.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so for me, that took a long time to kind of come to fruition as a a reality.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was a discussion, and I was pretty, I suppose, adamant this is gonna happen.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were there was too many signals out in the in the ether, if you will, that were making it clear that this was gonna be something we would see in at least in in built environments, city environments.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then how was there any change implemented?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Did you did stuff start moving to accommodate for this eventual takeover of the R.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I think yeah, I mean the city's all recognized.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've had to we've we've you know, genies out of the bottle.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the markets, the marketplaces accepted it as part of our our daily lives.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm I am saying that from sat in central London, but the city has had to adapt.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw, you know, even during COVID, the the change of creations of bike lanes and and improving in in the cycle highways, um, really acknowledging that there was this level of mobility that people needed to have the the freedom and autonomy and desire to move in a very different way than perhaps maybe we had done.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So from a very wide built environment.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm not saying I had anything to specifically do with that implementation of change other than you know, there was a recognition that it was something that was coming.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I was talking about it a lot.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's not a direct I said it, and therefore change happened.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was just a it was a it's an example I'm kind of pointing a finger to.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: So big picture.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think change is required?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think change is required really big picture.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: If I look at it, is because I think it always has a done.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Most metropolists have, you know, they don't just appear and they they stick they stick around for a really long time.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I can't think of examples where it hasn't changed.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: We would maybe don't recognize the change.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm I'm fortunate my family's back in Chicago, and so I'm not there every day.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when I go home, I I see something like, when when did that happen?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that change happened.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, my parents go, didn't even notice.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it there there is a cities have an innate ability to change.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, commercial real estate, we sometimes were inside of it, so we think it's really, really slow.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it probably is really, really slow.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: But cities have always changed.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm probably putting cities as being a very specific group that's that's open to that change.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because otherwise I think they wouldn't really function as cities.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and somebody who's a geographer would probably tell me there's there's something that underpins all that in historical relevance.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, London has been around for centuries.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Decades, you know, you just kind of sit there and go, yeah, okay, there is change.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: We've always implemented change.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe not always the industry itself driving that change, but I think we we we have a part to play in that change.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh finally, a question which I like to uh end on um is does commercial real estate need to evolve or revolutionize?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Evolve or revolutionize?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I want to say revolutionize just because that's me and I'm yeah, right.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, let's do something really exciting and crazy and bonkers.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it will evolve.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I think that this next stage that we're entering, um, we we touched on it, the the pace of change that we're seeing in artificial intelligence.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the past 20 years of my career experience, I think, is going to be on fast forward for the next five in a good way.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: In an exciting way.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: In an exciting way.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming on.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was really interesting to hear your passion about the the industry and changing the industry and pushing the industry to be a bit better.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so no, um, really, really interesting, and thank you for coming on and spending your time with us.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, James.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Delighted to be here.