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Episode #52: Is This The End of "Beyond Organic" Food? · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the government accused him, A, of not having all of his legal uh uh loophole paperwork in order and accused him of selling um uninspected meat and poultry.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when he went to court, um two things are important.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, he couldn't afford an attorney, so the court appointed him attorney, an attorney.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: This attorney, Cena, is a snake.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: The attorney, the court-appointed attorney, think about this.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: You got the USDA coming down on this guy, the U.S.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Attorney General, and the judge appoints him from the courthouse crowd, an attorney.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: The guy doesn't, he he doesn't believe what Amos is doing is okay.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: He he he is he is um he is sabotaging uh Amos's uh legal proceedings, not providing him adequate advice.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: So they go into court.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Amos is an Amish guy, he doesn't he doesn't read legal documents any more than you and I.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the judge comes down, the state comes down on him, and they issue this court order.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to another edition of Beyond Labels.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough, and I'm here with Joel Salatin, everyone's favorite farmer.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we were going to um launch today an episode that re-recorded about the CDC's new announcement on COVID, but we've decided to bump that a week in order to bring you this more breaking story about um an Amish farmer who is currently facing um over a six-year legal battle and over$300,000 in fees and possible jail time for um basically processing and distributing food from his own land.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this this story has gone national.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so we thought it would be appropriate for us to chime in, particularly since um this is one of Joel's area of expertise.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We want to kind of tease out this story and maybe talk about what the media is not sharing with you.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that said, I'm gonna hand it over to you first, Joel.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, see, you know, well, you know, this this this um this story hit uh Tucker Carlson tonight last week on Fox News.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think it was Monday, Monday night last week.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been one week ago that it was on Tucker Carlson, which of course vaulted it into you know really, really national uh prominence.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, of course, I've known Amos Miller for for uh decades, it seems like a long, long time.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and the to to it it it breaks your heart what's happening to him, but he made a fatal flaw, Cena.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: He made a fatal flaw, and the flaw was signing the judge's cease and desist order from a year ago.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So so this this so if we could back up a minute, Amos uh Amos has a personal membership association.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's called a PMA, personal membership association.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: These are popping up all over the country.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so so there there are things where where if if Amos goes down, it's gonna set bad precedent for a lot of people that are trying to mimic some of the things that he's done.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the one one of the problems with with Tucker Carlson's coverage the other night was that it was just the typical sensational USDA is going after Amishman.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't Biden go after somebody that's a real criminal and not send gum shoes after an Amishman?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: But but but legal issues like this, as you know, are never just they're never just cut and dried.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's always some sort of thing going on.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so what Amos has crafted for himself is what's called a personal membership association.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's the basis of numerous um uh numerous farm to consumer uh interfaces now around the country.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those loopholes.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's modeled after the country club, the the the golf, um, the golf country club, which you know is not public.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, if a if a private, if a private golf club wants to exclude somebody, uh you you can't just walk into a private country club and say, hey, I want to play 18 holes.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, there there are rules.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, from from dress rules to um to dues, dues paying rules, you know, all sorts of things.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, so these are these are non-public, and therefore courts have ruled forever that these do not have to comply with, for example, um uh, you know, the Americans with Disabilities Act.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: They do not have to comply with that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um they don't have to comply with numerous things that that public places uh would you know would have to comply with.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and don't read into this.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not opposed to helping handicapped people.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't read into this.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but I but it it is important to understand that the the PMA, the Personal Membership Association, uh is very much considered a non-public entity.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it is a private, it is a private group of people.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's what Amos has.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: He has a personal membership association.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the USDA came in on him, and and it's big.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's got like 4,000 families.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's one of the biggest ones in the country.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he's been at it a long, long time.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the USDA came in and they pierced, they, they pierced that of the PMA and accused him of selling.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: They said, you don't really have a personal membership association.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is a this is a facade, a charade.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're really a retail store and you're selling meat and poultry that is not inspected by a government inspector.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh, you got to realize that these inspection laws uh are pretty are pretty um you know ubiquitous and and and and eclectic, you know, through the system.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I you know you can't sell a pork chop unless it's uh unless it's been inspected by a you know by a government agent.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: That that's what our that's what our country has come to.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Even to a neighbor, to somebody at church, even to a a longtime friend, uh it's it's it's illegal.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, Cena and I are both uh adamant that that should not be the case, but it is the case right now.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Amos, Amos, um, so the government accused him, A, of not having all of his legal uh uh loophole paperwork in order and accused him of selling um uninspected meat and poultry.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So when he went to court, um two things are important.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, he couldn't afford an attorney, so the court appointed him attorney, an attorney.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: This attorney, Cena, is a snake.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: The attorney, the court appointed attorney.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Think about this.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: You got the USDA coming down on this guy, the U.S.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: attorney general, and the judge appoints him from the courthouse crowd, an attorney.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: The guy doesn't, he he doesn't believe what Amos is doing is okay.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: He he he is he is um he is sabotaging uh Amos's uh legal proceedings, not providing him adequate advice.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they go into court.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Amos is an Amish guy, he doesn't he doesn't read legal documents any more than you and I.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the judge comes down, the state comes down on him, and they issue this this court order, uh, you know, over a year ago, and Amos trying to uh trying to uh adhere to the biblical mandate as much as lieth within you, be at peace with all men.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and through the advice counsel of this this this uh snake of an attorney of a court appointed attorney, he signs the judge's order.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is the problem.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or or that that has has completely changed the way the case proceeds because now it's not freedom to sell.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's I signed a judge's order, yes, I will cease and desist.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then he didn't cease and desist.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So so that this has moved it into a whole different realm that unfortunately is obscuring is is obscuring the basic uh the basic uh liberty foundations of the case, which is food choice.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do I have the freedom to to to choose to buy my food from a source as a voluntary consenting adult?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh can I buy food from a source that the government bureaucracy um uh has not approved?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this touches seen as so many areas of our lives from our freedom of choice, you know, personal autonomy uh uh uh of my body is one of the final you know, final boundaries, right, uh, of tyranny, whether it's you know, vaccine or um you know, or or food, uh, or or how we educate our children.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, imagine, you know, when Theresa and I started educating our, you know, home at homeschooling our kids, you know, we had to close the drapes, didn't ask, didn't tell, and and lived every day hoping that a truant officer would not come and take our children away from us for such egregious, aberrant behavior for being negligent parents.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and we see that now, you know.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: If uh, I mean, think about the child.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll get on a rabbit trail here.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about the power of child protective services.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: If, you know, if your child happens to fall down, and now you have now you're automatically kicked into well, did they fall down?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Did the parent strike him?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and you you you get a foul of these things, and suddenly, you know, here's here's child protective services in your face.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And during, you know, interrogations, oh, you spank?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, you know, you and and I'm not, I don't want to get here, get a big argument about spanking, but you know, I was certainly spanked.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: We spanked.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think spanking is is is is horrible, uh, done the right way with you know all the right context.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: The point is that when you head down that path, uh uh you know, with a with a court order that you sign and say, yes, I will, yeah, basically, yes, I will comply.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then you don't, it it forces the legal battle into a whole nother set of things.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why uh at the rogue food conference uh that that we that we have, in fact, we're gonna we're gonna be having another one in um in Tennessee in December.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that's why we we preach, if you will.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: You you either join the system or you stay out of the system.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: You you get if if you try to straddle the fence um and and and put one foot in the system and one foot out of the system, you don't.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and I can tell you in the battles we've had with the USDA and the inspections and all this stuff, every time they shove a piece of paper in my face and say, you know, sign this, I never sign it.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't care what, I don't care what it is, I have a I never sign it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so Amos unfortunately signed the cease and desist order that the judge gave.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so now it moves the the legal struggle not from freedom of food choice, but into this, into this, oh, so you're not gonna comply with the order that you signed from the judge?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it's unfortunate, it's unfortunate that that has happened in the case.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind that's kind of where we are.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the future holds for him.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I I again my heart breaks for him, but I I don't know, I don't know where you go from here.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you sign the judge's order, you probably, you know, that you're going to agree to do this, you probably ought to agree to, you ought to do what you agreed to do.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, this is a real tough one.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know he signed that order.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's so unfortunate.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but so let's you've given us a lot of great insight, and I thank you for that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's break this down a little bit.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you talked about at the rogue food conference, you say you're either in the system or you're out of the system, don't straddle the system.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, Amos, he doesn't he doesn't want to be in the system.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really obvious on his website, which um which is Amos Miller OrganicFarm.com.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: They talk about um basically their religious freedom to process the meat how they want, to raise the meat and process the meat how God intended to.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And one of his issues is he wants to like basically slaughter that meat on his farm and not have to go to a USDA inspected approved facility because he's saying that they require you to use chemical disinfectants, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which you and I have covered before.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which which is which is Cena, which is not actually true.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: You there there are all now, it may be here here's the problem, Sina.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It may be that he doesn't have a slaughterhouse near him who who who who will use alternatives, okay?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I can tell you that at the slaughterhouse that we use, we do not use chemicals.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can use hot water.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it has to be super like like, for example, a beef carcass.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's hanging, you've just skinned it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so you can either bathe it in chlorine or you can spray it down with like hundred and 180 degree water.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um in some ways, chlorine is easier.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: You just spritz it on and you're done.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hot water, a little a little more, you know, a little more uh um skill, you know, a little more skill in in making sure you get it all covered and blanketed.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so so so there's a reason why slaughterhouses take the chlorine approach because it's simply it it's easier, it's easier to adhere to the HACCP plan.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: The HACCP plan is a hazardous analysis critical control point plan.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: H A C C P HACCAP.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And every slaughterhouse has to have one of these um that the government says your procedure, it's it's it's a it's a um it's a written procedural plan that that covers especially um strategic places where there can be contamination.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: For example, for example, in butchering a beef, all right, you pull you you you skin it, you pull the hide off.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you're not real careful, that hide can fold over at the wrong spot or or whatever, and suddenly you've just you've just got a couple of hairs that have some manure on them, okay?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um because they've been in a holding pen overnight, and you can't use deep deep litter in a holding pin, they have to be concrete so they can be, you know, washed down.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, we can we could go a million different directions.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the the point is that the the Hassett plan is the is the protocol, is the protocol that you have to adhere to in the in the slaughterhouse.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and hot water is an alternative to chlorine.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: But if Amos doesn't have a slaughterhouse anywhere near him that that that will use hot water instead of chlorine, then what's he supposed to do?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then that's that's his point, I think, is that that's violating his religious freedom, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And his relationship with God.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um another point he brought up is that the number of slaughterhouses has diminished because of the regulatory red tape that they have to get through, and they can't often afford to do it.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a limited number of slaughterhouses as well.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so going back to this point of he doesn't want to join the system, has never wanted to join it, and so he is trying to stay out of the system.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he thought he was doing that by um creating that private membership association, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so now if you look at um, so I have I have up in front of me the United States Attorney's Office, Eastern District of Pennsylvania Department of Justice statement about this case.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna read you what it says.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Although Miller's organic farm is a sole proprietorship, Mr.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Miller organized Miller's sales operations into a so-called private membership association or PMA, Food Buyers Club.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Miller based his noncompliance on assertions that PMAs are exempt from regulatory laws.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is false.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: PMAs are not exempt from federal food safety and other health and safety laws.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, um I know you talked about this a little bit at the intro, but let's just have it be very clearly stated.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is this true?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are PMAs not exempt from federal food safety and other health safety laws?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So are they subjected to all the laws?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the pro here's the problem, Sina.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Amos is now the test case.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So there are Cena, I'll bet you I mean, I don't know.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I have I haven't kept uh count on my fingers, but I I would say that there are probably um at least 50 now, maybe more, maybe a hundred uh PMAs in the country that have sprung up because there is now and there is now a a farmer, a farmer PMA support network.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are there are a few attorneys who are specifically crafting these PMA, these PMA um templates, documents, legal documents to construct your PMA.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um because what happens, uh Cena, as you know, when tyranny, when tyranny gets so uh so egregious, it becomes actually more efficient to try to circumvent than to comply.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So so you know, look, who wants a fight?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to fight, all right?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so you comply, you comply, you comply, until finally compliance becomes so onerous, either, either financially, emotionally, or or um uh convictionally um so onerous that you say, no, I can't comply anymore.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm going to circumvent, which is, of course, what launched the homeschool movement.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was not legal.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was not legal.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, and so here's where we are in the food system.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: These these food safety regulations that you and I, of course, talk a lot about in Beyond Labels, um, that they they have now become so onerous and tyrannical that people are are putting their their uh innovation and cleverness uh in gear and saying, how do we how do we get food?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the one thing that you haven't said that I'm gonna say right here is, yes, he wants to do this, but more than that, his 4,000 customers don't want chlorinated meat.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so if you're not a farmer, this is this is your issue.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Are you going to sit back and allow every single morsel that you consume have to be have to be in compliance with USDA, and we know what they believe, uh with with their orthodox requirements.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Their orthodox requirements are are are 180 degrees opposite of what you and I think that good food should be.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so so this is not just a farmer issue.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is a right, this is a right to to um a right to get, to to choose, to find, uh, and patronize food of my choice.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so, so, so my point is that there's an entire now guerrilla network in the country of both legal counsel and farmers that are setting up these PMAs.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so Amos is now the test case, and and and the and they have not been tested in court.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but but all the you know, all the minds and the legal people and all that that are setting these up say, yes, you know, it it's fine, we we can do this, we can do this, we can do this.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when you ask, and we did this in Florida at the Rogue Food Conference, I asked, I said, so has this been tested in court?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, that's coming.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know where or when, but it's coming, but we believe that we'll prevail.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: So here we are, we've got our test case.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So and so, so I can assure you there are plenty of legal minds who believe that this statement, that PMAs are that that it is false.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And notice, notice uh what they said here the the the the the condescension in their statement, so called PMA.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not a so called PMA, it is a PMA.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: All right, and and so what we have now is we have precedent in in country club, golf club.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the biggest ones, PMAs around the country.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have precedent there that they are exempt from, for example, their dining services complying with um with you know restaurant safety requirements, with their bathrooms having to be um ADDA, uh America's Disability Act, ADA compliant, uh with with being able to exclude members based on race, ethnicity, religion.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: They are exempt by precedent, they are exempt from all of that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so what farmers have done is simply take that upper crust, that upper crust uh country club template and used it instead of swinging a golf club.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: How about you want to get a T-bone steak?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right, that's all they're doing here.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's all they're doing.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we have lots of legal precedent on the up the on the upper end of our society.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people that join country clubs tend to be uppercrust.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have a lot of precedent in that area, but boy, oh boy, to apply that to poor peasant little woeful farmers, uh, that's that's completely, you know, uh uh that's that's unacceptable.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so so what we have here is a um is is a is a legal debate.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's unfortunate that Amos clouded that that pure debate with signing the judge's uh consent order.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: That threw it into another ballgame.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: But but but the but the but the the original the foundations the foundations of Amos's argument are absolutely correct and and grounded in uh in jury in in legal precedent.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he unfortunately has now been chosen to be the fall guy to uh because listen, if he if he falls, if if if if the PMA, if the government does, I think the legal term is pierce, pierce the veil.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they use that, they can pierce the corporate veil, pierce, you know, numerous things.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: If they pierce the PMA uh uh construct, then all of these other little fledgling uh enterprises that are using it effectively around the country, they will also be in jeopardy.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Believe me, this is the big this is the first domino.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: If the USDA prevails and it falls here, uh there's gonna be a a whole wrath of uh of these legal actions quickly for these other farms that are not quite as um um well that they're not as big or well healed as Amos.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this has a more has a potential to have a more profound effect on our ability to procure food than I even realized before this conversation.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm seeing a path where um, so you and I would describe the food that we like to eat as beyond organic, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not gonna clump organic into this because an organic, they often use the chlorine as well to disinfect the meat.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to procure food for ourselves, our family, and you for you know your clients who that is beyond organic, okay?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I see a path as you're talking, I see a path for how they can squash beyond organic.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: They could make it so we could never have meat that you and I would consider to be beyond organic, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they squash these, then the next step is, well, now you have to go to this USDA inspection facility.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens if they take away the hot water option?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, God forbid somebody gets sick from some meat, and they're like, oh, we tracked it back using our government sophisticated tracking system.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it came from Joel's meat that wasn't chlorinated, it they used hot water.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a problem.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody died, and now we're gonna stop the that option.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Cena, as you know, that's called in in pro in meat processing, that's called or or food processing, that's called a kill step.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's called a kill step.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why, that's why, for example, for example, when you hear about a a uh a recall of tainted hamburger, you know, and you and you read this number of, you know, uh five million pounds, you know, was recalled, okay.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know that all of that goes into uh into cooked product?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, that product, um if if it goes through another kill step, so instead of like like say say it's frozen, frozen hamburger patties, um, they can recall that and put that in hamburger helper.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay because it went through a kill step.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: See, it it so this this hot water chlorine thing on the carcass of a of a chicken or a cow or whatever is called a kill step.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bacterial uh kill step.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and that kill step can be accomplished by um by things other than chlorine.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know I know people that are using uh, for example, um uh citric acid, which you know you can, I mean you wouldn't want to drink it, but it certainly isn't toxic to the human body using citric acid uh across poultry carcasses rather than chlorine.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh so you know there there are these uh these alternatives.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and and but again, if Amos doesn't have somebody near him uh or or with you know within within travel reach uh that he can go to, uh then it becomes it becomes a problem.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but hey, what what if I want to process them on my own farm?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: What if I want to raise them, you know, birth them, raise them, grow them, and they never they never leave my farm, they never set foot on a trailer, they never get commingled with somebody else's animals, and I want to do it right on my farm.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, why shouldn't, A, I be able to do it?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And B, why shouldn't a neighbor who wants that kind of food have the freedom to acquire that kind of food?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that's ultimately where we are.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and I hope, I hope in this case that we get back to those arguments rather than rather than the the the the whatever the legal minutia of well he signed an order and didn't comply.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh and so yeah it's it's it's really unfortunate that the whole case has now been clouded and kind of overshadowed by this signing a signing a uh an a judge's order and then not complying with what you voluntarily nobody held a gun to his head.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now, now I let's let's agree.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody held a gun to his head, but it's just it's just a couple clicks short of that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, here you are, you're an Amish guy, you're sitting in a court, you've got the you know, the sheriff's bailiff sitting over there, he's got a bunch of guns on his hips, and you're sitting there and the judge saying, sign this, you know.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I nobody put a gun to his head, but it's not very voluntary.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Either sign this or go to jail, you know, that's not real voluntary.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so you know, he was he was trying to do the best he had.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, he had terrible counsel.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: This case, uh so I can tell you right now, there is a huge effort underway to find him good legal counsel.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the uh if you want, if you want to say, well, okay, let's let's what what's the next step?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: The next step is there are many of us trying to find legal counsel for Amos.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um that that so we're looking at foundations, we're looking at Institutes for Justice, Rutherford Institute.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: There are numerous pro bono constitutional uh attorneys out there, foundations, and and Lord willing, in the next couple of days, um, somebody will step forth and say, we will tech that take this case.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, that's the way the ACLU takes cases, right?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are plenty of these uh outfits around.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, Lord willing, one one will step up and say, Yes, this is worth fighting for, and we'll take this case and um and see and see where it goes.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: He needs he needs uh decent representation.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we all need for him to have good representation at this point.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a little bit of positive news.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: There I also wanted to say um there is on gives and go, and we'll put a link to this in the description box of the show.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So on Gives and Go, there is um kind of like a fundraiser going on to raise money for his farm to help them pay the legal fees so he could presumably avoid jail time.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we'll put the link to that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: They've they're trying to raise just over$305,000.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: They've raised 40,000 so far.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you don't have, you know, these are hard times for everybody financially.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have money to give, um, I love this.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: On Give Send Go, there's also the option to click a prayer button so you can send them prayers.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's also, we'll we'll put the link to this as well.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a petition that you can sign on Rebel News basically telling the government stop persecuting him.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, we're in support of these PMAs, and right now they have just over 37,000 signatures.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so if you're so we like Joel and I like to give actionable steps so you can be part of the solution and not just we're not, we don't want to just give you all this heavy information and then okay, just sit there, twiddle, twiddle your thumbs while the government takes over.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so we're trying to give you some actionable steps you can take.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and don't support a PMA and your local farmer, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Cena, and let me say one more thing on a very personal level with Amos because I was on the phone last week for an hour with uh a little local weekly newspaper that's trying to help him all they can.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I was on with the lead investigative reporter on that on that story, and um I my heart further broke when I found out that the Amish community has pretty much uh disowned Amos.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you you know you know the Amish community is very, very tight, and and they now see him as a black sheep, a troublemaker, a rabble rouser, a rebel.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and so he is now facing, and you know how tight Amish communities are.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're all cousins and uncles and and and they all adhere to the same ordnung.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Ordnung is their kind of their order.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and um and so so for him now to face the the uh the ostracism of his of his Amish community and support group is just is just horrendous.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so he truly is out there, he's Joan of Arc, he's out there on his own, uh with basically um no support.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I'll I'll I'll cry in a minute.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he I I just my heart breaks for him uh in this in this position.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can assure you that the the the the the the the judgment now coming from his community, he feels more acutely than the cover judgment comes from the government.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Judgment comes from government, you know, Amish have Amish have faced uh persecution, you know, for hundreds of years.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh that's that's not new.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they're and they they grow up as children, um, you know, prepared for that, ready for that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: They are they're emotionally ready, you know, to to um uh uh to deal with that.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but boy, uh and and and how they can is because they have this tight community, you know.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so when that community then turns on you and you become a black sheep, uh it it's a it's a rough, it's a rough rotaho.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um so yes, Amos has a Amos has a real burden on him.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: His 4,000 uh uh patrons, of course, are just uh loyal to the core.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and and we need to appreciate uh the position that they're in, that they're that the the person they have counted on to supply them their body's fuel and sustenance, their health, uh, is now being uh summarily uh persecuted uh by the by the USDA.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, jump in there any way you can.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for those links.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thank you for encouraging people to do everything from uh pray to give to to um help.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and please, please, everyone, follow this story, but but also be aware, very aware, that the mainstream media, even Tucker Carlson, is not they're they're not getting the depth and the and the the breadth of this story.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And our hearts are all knit with Amos's in this in this fight.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I'm gonna start crying.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um, and I'll I'll just add one more thing before we close out.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, like you, um, well, I had the opportunity to go down to Amish Country there in Pennsylvania and and speak at one of their events and meet all these wonderful people.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they were sharing with me that they are already feeling, they were already feeling a little bit ostracized by the community because they chose to grow food organically or regeneratively, right?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, a lot many in the Amish community, many of the farmers do not grow food without chemicals, for instance.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they were already facing a tough route, a tough road, right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and so this has been a chronic um difficult situation for for them.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, I I want to just stand strong with them, and Joel and I will follow this story, and we will continue to bring you updates and whatever insider information that we have.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if you can't give in the form of money, prayers.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Prayers are what we need here to save basically our way of life, right?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: To to save our health and our family's health.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that it in in terms of being able to procure the food that we think is the best way for our bodies to eat.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So go ahead.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, so thank thanks for thanks for joining us on on the podcast.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we look forward to being with you next week.