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Healing, Service Dogs, and Advocacy in EMS · The JEMS Report

• JEMS 20261105 JEMS Report (EMS Improv): But I do believe that I was put into different places to see different things that helped me to then have a purpose or to repurpose myself. And really something that was a big driver for me was the fact of I'm tired of losing my brothers and sisters to suicide. And that can't stop if I'm one of them. Hello and welcome to the EMS Impro Podcast, where we engage, where we're mindful, we share or tell our stories. I'm Eric Chase and we're powered by gems. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very excited for my guest. He's up in Nebraska. He just is off or back from speaking at EMS World down there in Orlando, Florida. I met him about seven months ago down in McKinney, Texas, so he does get around in all the best ways. My guest is Robert Ravendah. Robert, welcome to the MS Improp Podcast. Thank you, Eric. It's a pri privilege to be here. Well, it's exciting for us and for gems and and for clearing events for us to have you to share your stories, to talk about what we're gonna talk about here. And I do want to give the audience a little bit of context for your background. So I'm gonna read your bio here if that's okay with you. Sure. Wonderful. So Rob is a paramedic program director and instructor at Southeast Community College in Lincoln, Nebraska. Before entering education, he spent 17 years working as a paramedic and a firefighter paramedic in both urban and suburban fire departments. He also has rural hospital-based EMS experience. So, when we look for contacts and we listen to people or we say, why is that person worth listening to? If they haven't done exactly what I've done, I don't care. Well, I'm saying, and and all too often we say that in education and in the field and everything else, but I just want everybody to know that Rob has a a vast experience, both from an EMS and a fire EMS perspective. In 2015, and this is where it gets a little bit more serious, Rob responded to a call, and for each listener out there is Rob is telling his story and sharing his story and what got him to get to the point of seeking help. it led to the development of his post-traumatic stress, PTSD, PTSI, whatever people want to call it. It forced him into retirement from frontline emergency services in 2018. As part of Rob's treatment specifically, and we know it's not one size fits all, ladies and gentlemen. We'll talk about that more. He uses a service dog and Carnes, I got to meet down in McKinney, Texas. Rob's going to talk about living and working with a service animal, how it's fundamentally changed. how he views EMS practices. And he just got done telling me that he's lucky that he wasn't on TikTok or YouTube or anything for all the wrong reasons and how he would have appropriately or inappropriately dealt with a patient with a service animal. So without further ado, without belaboring the point, Rob's got a great background. He's he's the consummate professional. As you can see, he's wearing a a a sports coat and a tie. He's always looking sharp and and always maintaining that that presence. I feel underdressed and I'm gratefully underdressed. again, welcome, Rob. Well, thank you, Eric. I truly appreciate you having me. It really it really is a privilege. And I'm just passionate about sharing with the other providers out there, like if they're struggling with post-traumatic stress or wondering about how do I navigate a service animal issue or what have you. I'm just passionate about them. getting information that will be beneficial to them. So with that being beneficial, you being a a history a student of history, I believe bachelor's and masters are in in history, if I remember correctly. Yes. Mm-hmm. So context matters and the evolution of of our society matters in context to what happened prior to our arrival here. So understanding history, right? Right. so what did you have to do? and we'll we'll tell your story, you'll tell your story. I won't tell it at all. about what got you to the point of feeling you needed some sort of help, who it affected adversely, what was the impetus for you to make a change to seek and actually get the help? And then to get to the point where you have carns and than working through all the legalities and the minutiae and/or quote unquote fighting with a fire service or or other things that people have to go through in order to actually have a service animal while employed. Right. A lot of questions. But if l let's just talk about your story in 2017, which started from 2015, but where all the darkness, the demise, the the issues really started becoming prevalent to you and who did they affect, how did they affect you? And and again, what was the impetus for you to change? Well, the first thing I want to say is that you might hear me inject humor or what have you. And it is a serious topic, but I just asked for everyone to give me the grace to share my story in the way that I want to. And At the same time, I'm not a hypocrite. I'm more than happy for them to share their story in the way that they want to. so how it went down for me was the first thing is I had no idea that we could get post-traumatic stress. And that might sound like I was living under a rock, but I probably somewhat was. But this was also 2015. Yeah. And so anyway. On October twenty-fourth at exactly eleven one, twenty fifteen, I ran a critical incident that involved the drowning and death of a child, little boy, three years old. And that that call I guess is why I have PTSD. And at the same time, if I could go back and be young and healthy and do my whole career over again. There's nowhere else I would want to be at eleven one on October twenty-fourth, twenty fifteen, than where I was. it was a privilege and an honor to be able to help a family through that. Like that was that's what I signed up for, right? so I I would say, and you know, the timeline gets a little fuzzy just because I don't think about it a lot. but really, not long after that call, probably within two weeks, I was on the app floor and just in tears. And what I was afraid of, it wasn't that I was afraid the call would happen again. It was I was afraid that if the call happened again, I would lose my shit. Yeah. And the reason for that is is that anybody out there listening that's in the fire service or EMS, I mean, we're a team, right? And everybody, all of our weird personalities and all of those goofballs that I worked with that couldn't make it in any other profession, right? everybody brings something to the team that they do. And you know, there's always somebody that's stronger, there's always somebody that's really good at talking to the, you know, calming down the people that are combative. I mean, there's just everybody's got their thing. And my thing was that I brought to the team was that no matter how bad it was, I was always the one that was cool, calm, and collected. And I was afraid, well, if I lose my shit, what's that gonna do to the guys? And when I say guys, I mean the ladies too, but it's like, what's that gonna do to my team members? Like I don't want them to go through this. And so I kind of my captain took me to EAP and that kind of started a little bit. But I was in EAP for a little while. And when I stay a little while, I don't know, I would I go a time or two and that would make things subside and then things would flare up again. And then I go back. And when they asked me, well, do you want to stay in the fire service? It was really apparent to me they weren't working for me. And so I stopped going. And that I don't know the timeline, somewhere maybe a year into this or something. And along the way, things kind of, you know, if you don't take care of things, they get worse. And so I I I don't know any other way to say it other than I was like I was slipping and I was slipping worse and worse. And it got to the point that my wife had to sit next to me and talk me through getting dressed because I couldn't stay grounded long enough to even get dressed. Wow. And, you know, and So in that process this would have been probably, you know, the sort of Spring, May, June of twenty seventeen. I I reached out to one of the guys on the job that I trusted and I said, Hey, I need to find somebody that really knows what to do with this shit. And he called around to some of the bigger metro areas around us because I said, I'm not gonna go anywhere in town. I don't know who I can trust here and who I can't. And so anyway, I got to somebody that specialized in first responder PTSD. and they started, you know, helping me go through that. And it became apparent I needed to be off work. And I was like, well, I can't be off work. And they're like, why not? You know, we Nebraska has a law that makes us a work comp issue. And I said, Well, yeah, but my department, my city's not going to do that. And I was right. so Long story short, I went through a a lot of really great stuff, good treatment, things helped. but then when I kind of started going back light duty, things really started sliding backwards again. And I went back probably back to light duty after I don't know, maybe was off the rigs in June and somewhere around August, September, I went back to light duty. And then by Thanksgiving of twenty seventeen. I was like I don't know, I was just existing. And i it this was a this was a God thing, but my I called in sick to light duty because it was just like it was too much. It was just too much stimulation. I couldn't, stay grounded. And my battalion chief and then two of my friends that were on this, you know, on my ship, but they were at different ends of the city, they all kind of called each other at the same time and said, I don't feel good about this. And he said, Yeah, you guys just go. Just do what you gotta do, but just keep me informed so I know how long you're gonna be gone for. And they came over to the house and we went down in the garage and visited and and I knew that something wasn't right, but I was like, well, I've already done all this stuff and so da-da-da-da-da. Like, there's nothing more for me to do. This is just the way it is. And they looked at me point blank and said, Well, here's how this here's here's your choices. They said, one. You get in the car and we're gonna take you somewhere to get you help. And I that didn't sound like a good time to me. And they said, number two, we're gonna call so-and-so, who was a really big guy on the job. They said, We'll call him and he'll make you go. And they were correct. If he came over, he would have picked me up and put me in the vehicle. There'd be nothing I could do about it. And they said, or the third one is we're gonna call PD and we're gonna fabricate a story and have you put in emergency protective custody. And I knew that they would do it. And I knew that there would be no option for the PD, it wouldn't matter what I said. There'd be two of them plus my wife, because my wife was also a heat. This is, s we gotta do something. So they took me to a facility. I specifically said I'm not going anywhere in town. And so they took me to a place and and basically that place was just I I don't know what to call it, but it Maybe some would call it a crisis center or whatever, but they're they were good to me. They knew that I didn't really they just in essence it was a place to put me that I was safe, that I could get some sleep. And the nurses were nice and just gave me Adam and whenever I would start to get a little wiry or cagey, I guess. And and and from there I went to the Center of Excellence, the IFF Center of Excellence in Maryland. And you know, a lot of people go there for 30 days. I was really good at it. So they wanted me to stay. You know, I was gone maybe about 50 days or something like that. and that really helped. I mean, I just needed to be removed from my environment and put in a place where I could get better. And and they had good clinicians there, but really the best thing about it is it was us, like, you know, and just having people that had th seen and done things that got them there that I thought were far worse than what I had gone through. But just having them say, like, hey, if I'd have been on that call, I'd have been messed up too. I mean, there is some truth to Misery Loves Company. And it it's validating to know, like, hey, I'm not, you know. not week or whatever. And yeah, and then I came back and went back to light duty. And this would have been about, you know, January or February-ish of 2017 or 2018. And yeah, and and by October I was by I had retired. but in yeah it was yeah so October I retired. I was the last guy in the room to know I was retiring. I remember saying something to my therapist one day and they're like, Well, we thought you knew. And I'm like, knew what? And they're like, Well, we thought you knew you weren't going back to the rings. Like, you think this shit's normal? And I'm like, I thought I was going back. Like I didn't say I didn't want to go back. And so I won't say I quite left kicking and screaming. There were some circumstances that that occurred and that, you know, and and that allowed me to see the true character of people. And and when I saw that, I said, I I can't be aligned with this. I like what you stand for and what I stand for are very different. And morally I can't be in the same. I can't be, I'm not we're not equally yoked here. And so so truthfully it was a gift. I mean, because it allowed me to retire. It allowed me to kind of see the system is that's the systems that are in place that are the best way would say the systems that are in place that are designed to prevent us from getting help, to have us just disappear. And, you know, and something that really drove me was that in my department alone, we'd had five first responder suicides after a work comp law was passed, making it a worker job, a work-related injury. And it wasn't just our department, it was among the police department and fire department. And nothing had changed. Nothing had changed. And and I and in the same time like what I was experiencing when I was trying to discuss reasonable accommodation to bring my service dog to light duty. And when I say service dog, I'm not talking about emotional support animal. I'm talking about a legitimate task performing, medically necessary service animal, right? Fully trained, like this isn't anything else. And they were just I mean, I I was told by the city's employment attorney in writing I could not have my service dog at work because my therapist or my doctor said it would help me work at my optimal level. And you heard that correctly. And yeah. and is this okay to talk about Eric? I'm perfectly good with it. Okay. Yeah. And so I replied back, besides you, who else is only required to work at a half ass level? That's awesome. No, so it it it had advantages of being a guy when I started in the fire service only weighed about a buck thirty, as and of course all those big guys could just get me. So I had to outwit them. That's the only place I could beat them. And so who thought that training would ever become so valuable? but anyway it yeah, so it ended up I ended up retiring and and and really life, things take care of themselves. And and that segued into me getting into education and coming to work at the college as an adjunct. And and then I'm, you know, about a year later I started full time and and it just kind of opened a lot of opportunities. And yeah, a lot of lot I'm in a lot of spaces now that five years ago I never dreamt I would be, never dreamt I would be speaking at any of these events or on a podcast with you or that it never even occurred to me that any of that might happen. So well I I do want to honor your story in that part of it by saying first and foremost thank you for being transparent and vulnerable. you know we were talking about earlier being an empath or not and I and you recognize that I am and I say that to say this cumulative stress, whether being an empath or not, which is what you dealt with, and then that punctuating event with that drowning, and then the structures and the and the systems in place to keep us from getting the help, which have been ingrained within us for day after day, month after month, year after year. And I've written stories about fire departments that have treated their their members poorly, EMS agencies that have treated their members poorly, by structures and systems that are inherently, you know, set to bully, if you will. with that again, with that being said, and where you are in your story, you found a light. In a path, in a direction that you would have never even considered. And because you found that and you were. compelled to go or required to go, however you ended up getting to this the Center for Excellence, you did it to the point where it allowed you to change a lot of perspectives of what you thought and felt about yourself and the people in the world around you. So going back to the Center for Excellence and and for somebody that may feel they need to go there, Or for our IFF brothers and sisters that will eventually use that resource. What were one or two of the most significant things that you felt when you were there that helped get you to that position of there's so much more for me to work on, and yet I'm okay with where I am in life right now? And you're not suicidal. You don't have those suicidal ideations anymore. and you're not ready to just end your life. I think so. One thing I do want to say is my department was amazing. Like they weren't the issue. They treated me great. They were amazing. They took care of my family when I was gone. Like they made it possible for me to go. and I can't say enough about it well, it was just nothing short of amazing because I had two small children at home. the the my wife had help coming at her from every different direction and and not just like, let me know if you need something, but like, hey, we're bringing over Christmas stuff for the kids. We're setting it up, you know, what do you need? And she's like, Well, I got the kids a trampoline this year and that we'd been saving for for a long time. And they're like, No problem. Leave the stuff in the backyard, we'll set it up when the kids are asleep. they were just amazing. and so was my leadership within the department. But I think a couple of pivotal moments for me really it it's hard to pinpoint it to one or two. I mean ready to take your training to the next level. FDIC International is where the fire service comes together to learn, connect. And prepare for the challenges of today and tomorrow. Join us April 12 through 17 in Indianapolis for a week of hands-on training, classroom sessions led by fire service experts, and access to the latest products and innovations in the exhibit hall. Whether you're looking to sharpen your skills, discover new solutions, or bring valuable insights back to your department, FDIC delivers an experience unlike any other. Register today at FDIC.com Slash podcast. I I think a big thing was is just being in an environment where my peers and people that I could that I looked up to, like once I got to know them, I was like, holy cow, like there was one gentleman there that I told this guy, I'm like, Man, this guy was a firefighter's firefighter. And not just because of what he had done, but it was like it was his character, it was his morality, it was his dedication. It was how he treated everybody else. And you know, to have somebody like that say, you know, just say, Hey, that call would have messed me up too. Like I know why you're here. Well like that was huge. And then there was just other things that occurred along the way. And I'm whether we call it the universe or spirituality or God or whatever, I'm I'm a pretty big believer that Everything isn't up to chance. Like I don't believe that that incident they gave me PTSD happened for a reason. I don't believe that at all. But I do believe that I was put into different places to see different things. That helped me to then have a purpose or to repurpose myself. And really something that was a big driver for me was the fact of I'm tired of losing my brothers and sisters to suicide. this shit has to stop. Right. And that can't stop if I'm one of them. And it was like I I I had the talents and the gifts and whatnot and to start to do something about it. And really that was that took me to the next thing, right? And then when I got into education and I saw that wait a minute, there's these young students and they actually do want an old trauma dump on them, but but I had I didn't realize I had done so many things for so long that I had no idea that I just did them until it's like I was sh teaching students how to innovate and things just like, yeah, and do this. And I never thought about it, but it was just in I just did it, right? And I didn't realize how much I knew until I started having to teach other people. And at the same time, when we the the more I learned, the more I realized I know nothing. But but that's kind of what got me to the next place. And then going through life with a service animal was eye opening for me because I grew up, I mean, I grew up in a in a North Florida town and I'm wide and nobody ever told me I couldn't do something because of who I was. They would tell me you can't do this because you don't have the credentials, you don't have the money, whatever. Right. But then I started going through life with a service animal and people would be like, you can't come in here or, you can't do this or you can't do that. And it just what I want to say is it just peeled off like a layer of the onion and it I was really, really big and still am like that if if if we're not going to protect children, then we need to get out of our occupation. there's just there's some hills we should be willing to die on. And that's one of them. And and I I was able to see through some advocacy I was involved with, I could see what was happening to children with service animals. And that, to be honest with you, that just really ticked me off. but beyond that, I was able to kind of as I got more education, I was able to see behind the cur behind it a little bit and from the sense of like, okay, how did we get here? Like w this stuff that's happening to this child did not happen out of that clear blue. Like it's somewhere along the line we've come up with the idea that this type of behavior is okay. And so it's okay for us to perpetuate it. And I that's kind of what I want to say. Like it's not been very many. There's been a few defining moments, but more or less it's more of like there's a moment and then that like illuminates the path for a little bit. And somewhere along that path another moment happens that illuminates it a little farther and a little farther and a little farther. And so that's how it's I I guess really it it it I feel like it's happened to so much has happened on Just maybe the thread thin threads of circumstance. and don't know. I think I know that might be it's somewhat abstract to try to understand it, but that's kind of how it happened. With all these circumstances and everything kind of coming to fruition, when you had to start navigating the laws and and when you saw children not being protected and you recognized that your rights potentially were being violated, What where did the advocacy come in and where did the learning and the deep dive into the regulatory and the and the statutory requirements come into play for you? 'Cause that this is this is where you really start hitting the nail on the head for when you're doing your presentations, and and bringing the light and the awareness to people, leaders of organizations, members of organizations, to to know how to kind of get their footing. Right. Right. And and what I want to say too is like, I mean, none of this stuff is taught. Now give me time when I we we've got things in the works. It's going to be. but so really where I started was is it was really when I was just a n navigating initially the reasonable accommodation process through the ADA when I was on light duty in the fire department with a service animal. And that's really where I started. To be honest, that was really where I started navigating this, right? And then over time, and I want to say too, like I started my career as a paramedic in 1993. I didn't get an associate's degree until 2008. I retired in 2018. I got a bachelor's degree after I retired and a master's, like my most of my education I got after I retired. But a lot of what I was seeing was what was causing me to be interested. And and and so really this that part of deep diving, that's just a perpetual thing that really it probably st it really started with that initial navigating reasonable accommodation in the workplace. and then of course too, that in itself, by that virtue, then I started to become, you know, the ADA isn't that difficult of a law to to underst well, most laws are written very elementary and I'm not an attorney. So I don't get into, you know, like an attorney, they get into weighing different things and aspects of it where I've very much presented as, wait a minute, well here's what the law says verbatim. And we can say, okay, well if it says if it says thou shalt not, then we know that thou shalt not, right? Mm-hmm. And so And and then really in my PhD studies and stuff, I I'm just diving deeper and deeper and deeper into the scholarship around it or the lack thereof. and starting to pull in the, you know, there's the legal aspect, but there's also this aspect that what what propagates any kind of well this is very broadly stated and I don't know what I don't know yet, but I do know enough to know that what propagates discrimination of any kind is just this there there's like a a a social structure that makes the discriminator believe that they're empowered to do that. And so that's a little bit different. And well, I'm just kind of going more like along the lines of of of the philosophies of justice and things like that, because that that runs parallel and it's involved, but the law is still the law. And what I love about the law is is that we have mechanisms to change the law if we don't like it. But in the meantime, if we don't like it, nobody really cares. It's still the law. It's I would love it if I had a much better road that I could drive like I was on the Audubon. But we don't have that. And so if I don't like the fact of what our driving laws are, well then I can follow our processes to try to get it changed. But in the meantime, I still have to follow it. With having to follow it and you find individuals, organizations, restaurants, employers that weren't willing to follow these pretty elementarily written rules and laws. Where did the the quote unquote fight come in and did you have to engage in any of these conversations with with an attorney on your behalf as well or were these things that you were able to do on your own with the tenacity that you brought to the circumstance? Yeah, so that's a great question. I've certainly had some instances that if I would have gotten gone out and gotten legal counsel, the fight would be on. The problem, well, there's a place for that. in almost I've only I can only think of one instance, well, two, that I've ever faced where it was just an attitude of we don't even care what the law is. We're just gonna do this anyway because we can. But otherwise, in most of the cases that I've encountered, it was very apparent that it was absolute pure ignorance that I was up against. And it's really no different than my service dog. If I correct him for a behavior and he doesn't know what the behavior was, then what I did is just waste my time and his two. And so I I really have said that for me to be at peace. I I'm glad that we have we have folks out there in the advocacy world that are great at the at the w the courtroom aspect of this. But we can it's my belief that we can make a much bigger impact of education so that it doesn't ever get to the point of the courtroom. And that's really that's the avenue that I pursue. Not that I would not pursue a courtroom option if if if that was needed. But thus far I've been able to approach it from the educational standpoint and have gotten a lot more traction. And it's also much more positive because if if there's a court ruling on something, the court rulings don't really engage conversation and thought in the same way that education does. And And so that's the avenue. That's that's the avenue that I go down. So you prefer the non adversarial, which I like, and I think that that creates less strain, strife on you physiologically, psychologically, emotionally. And when we can learn to do that, and you mentioned something about fifteen, twenty minutes ago about grace. And Not absent religiosity. Grace is something that anyone can have and give and use not only for themselves but the circumstances around them. And you could be an agnostic or an atheist or absolutely. Yeah. Grace is very much a a like it's a social construct. Granted it's used in the religious constructs heavily, but really it's it's a part of what I like to What I refer to as, and other philosophers are referred to as the social contract. And basically that social contract says that in order for me to have my freedoms and enjoy my life, you can't do things that impede on those. And I was thinking of this actually on my way to work today, because the social contract basically says, well, we have Traffic rules and I drive on my side of the road and you drive on your side of the road and we both get to drive on the road, right? And Grace is very much the same thing. It's it's a matter that it's like, hey, it's let and let live, or live and let live, where I you give me the opportunity to tell my story the way I want to, and I give you the opportunity to tell your story the way that you want to. And neither story has more or less value because of the way it was told. Taking that. I'd like you to tell our listeners, whether they be a manager, a supervisor, a peer, an employee, some of the steps that if they were to start having a conversation about a service animal, service dog, in your case, what are some of the things that they need to do? and and is this gonna be the same state to state because it's an ADA? thing or is this gonna be something that's gonna be different by state to state, county to county, et cetera, that you've experienced. Sure. So the first thing I want to say is is that when we talk about service animals in the employee employer relationship, that is a very different approach than if it is a the paramedic or EMG is out providing service to the community, right? Very different. So the first thing I would tell everybody is there's an organization that is nonprofit. Basically, they're federally funded, and they're it's called the Job Accommodation Network. and Jan, and I think it's Jan dot org. And they are amazing. Their whole purpose is to give employers and employees information about the ADA and help them navigate what the ADA calls reasonable accommodation in the workplace. And within the frameworks of the law that that their con their ideology was that and I don't know if they still are, but they were when I used them, they were federally funded with the purpose of keeping things out like Basically, let's educate everybody so that we keep things out of the EEOC, we keep things out of the courtroom. And and and they have a lot of great resources. And so that would be the thing I would do. The other thing is is that you're right, the ADA is a federal law, but state laws can go above and beyond as well as municipal and municipal codes and whatnot. And so The disability rights network, they are in every state and they are also another great resource. They do they do legal advocacy, but they also do a lot of education. and so that's if I were in a if I were a a provider out in the field and I'm thinking like, hey, I need a service sample to help me at work, how do I start this process? Those are two resources I would look towards. And obviously if I were an employer, those are also resources I would look towards. Yeah, and and the when we talk about reasonable accommodation in the workplace, there is room for give and take and back and forth. And it's very much supposed to be interactive, meaning that that we have a conversation. And really the contention that I ran into years ago before my retirement was just the fact that I requested reasonable accommodation and City Hall decided that we don't even want to engage in the conversation. Yeah. That was the issue, right? And this is not something that when someone asks, you can't just ignore it until it goes away. So that's those would be kind of where I would start. And and I would also encourage everybody involved to keep an open mind because of the fact that it is a give and take. And what's reasonable for one employer in one circumstance or with an employee is not necessarily reasonable in another. And what are some of the differentiators to that? And I think most of us understand that. We start talking law, and I taught constitutional law and did some law enforcement stuff. And understanding the minutiae of those things, you w we'll get w far afield and into the weeds. Yet there are some things that you definitely have seen that could address maybe that point for the listeners. What I'm gonna say is is the biggest thing is have the dialogue. That's the biggest one. Have the dialogue. And and then when it comes to and and this isn't exactly my specialty. I'm familiar with it but most of my deep dive really deep dive is in public access. but the the reason it's called reasonable accommodation is that the the law recognizes that, for example, let's say that a an entity, let's say it's just I don't let's say it's very small town Nebraska, that maybe that small town only has five employees, right? And and one person for their accommodation might need a piece of technology in the workplace that would cost a million dollars. Right? Well, it looks at, well, what's reasonable? And so it's a matter of, well, does this you know, does this entity have a million dollars? Is a million dollars their entire budget? Versus if it's a very, very large entity that has a multi-trillion dollar budget, well then this this accommodation may not be that big a deal to them. So that's why it's just so much of an open dialogue. And that's really kind of some of the drivers between what's reasonable and what's not reasonable. I appreciate you bringing that up. And you know, you you've said dialogue several times and just i it you wish that these entities would at least have the conversation, the dialogue. Right. For us and what we do at the improv is is yes ending and it it's an acceptance. Yes isn't it yes is validating to what was just said. It's not an agreement, which oft all too often I think we, if somebody says, yes, then you're fully in agreement with what they just said. Me, when I utilize that phraseology, it's I accept what you're saying. I'm grateful for you saying that, and then I'm gonna offer my own portion. So that's the collaborative piece. It's the listening with intentionality. And then, whether it's a reasonableness question, which we can get definitely in the weeds with, but you you really gave a good example. is it reasonable for a multi-trillion dollar budget organization or for a small municipality with five employees or or or what have you? And I think that's the most important thing because I want my me, me, me and in this mindset of I've seen somebody else get it, so I want it. And that's a good desire, I think. Is it reasonable that you can attain that where you are? And what are you going to have to do in order to make those things come to fruition? As much as you're asking an organization or an entity to to basically do it for you when they've never even had the question posed, let alone done the research. so I appreciate you giving several of these organizations a tip of the cap for providing some good information. it it's important that we that we all utilize that grace. And again, as a social construct, it's basically really being kind and and forgiving without having to say, I forgive you, because I want you to be your authentic self. And if we're being symbiotic and there's good synergy, you want me to be my authentic. authentic self. Absolutely. Right. And I think when when we start interfering with that, or for you or I with our mental health struggles, and my suicidality umpteen years ago and your depression, I would probably assume they labeled it as depression and suicidal ideations at the very least, from what what our stories have shared. I wasn't in a place to hear honor, respect, listen, collaborate at all, I was wallering in my own pity, doubt, fear, no hope, you know, no light, and you know, guilt and shame, you know, which which for human beings and and and men as we're talking, and I've had many female guests on here that have said the same thing, it it's pitted differently within the recesses of our bodies, somewhere between the heart, mind and and and the gut is this overwhelming sense of we're not worthy, whether it's lack of purpose, whether it's lack of direction, anything. so you you've touched a lot upon a lot of things. And you know, in the next several 10, 15 minutes or so where we're gonna start wrapping this up. What what is something That you, as you continue to share with the people that you've presented to and your students and your team, your diverse team up there, shaping and molding through that diversity, what is something or a couple of things that you want to share with our listeners and the followers here at both Gems Claring Events and the EMS Improv Podcast that you think would be great pearls of wisdom and action items for them to take going forward? Well, the first thing that I would say is and keep your eyes open on the different agendas and whatnot coming out with conferences and things like just keep your eyes open. I can't quite say it yet, but there's there's more to this to this this this thought. And the first thing I wanna say is Treat each other the way that you want to be treated. And I know that sounds very cliche. I mean, I was in my first my kindergarten classroom as a child, you know. but stop if if the world, if everybody in the world at the end of the day would just take 30 minutes with no stimulation from anything outside and just ruminate on the day. And how did I treat other people? And what were areas that were were there areas that people treated me badly? And if so, were there areas where I treated somebody else badly? And how could I do that differently next time? Like what could make this a better outcome? Knowing that it's okay for us to disagree. That's the point. Like that's the point. That's what makes a society work. Nobody has the best idea all the time. And so It's I have learned so much when I would just stop talking and just listen and observe. And and that I like to hear myself talk. And so that was not an easy thing. Still not easy to do. so that would be the first thing. And the second thing, whether we're talking about service animals or I mean, it it could really be anything that we don't understand. That we're seeing through an interpersonal aspect, a mental health aspect, a cultural aspect, is just say, like, be humble enough to say, ex like, I don't understand. Can you please explain this to me? And then just be open, be like, like, and just know that for both sides, it's okay if we still walk away and disagree. But at least maybe I understand it just a little bit more now. And you know, one example I would use is well, the dream catcher that's back on the wall, you know. Well, I didn't know what a dream dream I mean, I you know, Wikipedia what dreamcatcher says, but I asked an indigenous person to explain the dream catcher to me. Like what does it what does it why why? What does it mean? And and and I don't doesn't like they were perfectly fine if I didn't believe them. Right. But it's just about being open and just listening. And sometimes when we really listen, we find out that, you know, for instance, if one of my team members comes to me or one of my students and maybe a student is is, you know, they're focusing on this assignment or whatever. But if I listen to them, what I might A lot of times what I might find out is is I might find out that there's more there. It's not about this assignment. Maybe it's that, well, this assignment was late because they're the sole caregiver for their grandparents. And their grand you know, their grandparent has dementia and roams all night. And so they were up, you know. So just by listening, we find out there's more to the story. than just what we see on the what we see on the surface. And I just think if everybody did that, every even if we did it for five minutes, what might happen? And the other thing I'd want to tell people is is that you can change the world. And you don't hear very many people with gray hair say that. I've been accused of being idealistic for most of my life, but I can change the world. And Eric can change the world. And somebody I don't even know can change the world. It doesn't matter. The the janitor in a building, it like none of us are better than the other. And and the way you change the world isn't by being on the billboard. You change the world by how you treat each other around you. And it's how do you do that? And if you do it well enough, those people will emulate that and they'll take it to their circle and their circle and their circle. And that's all it is. Well, Rob, I can't thank you enough. I I don't even want to add anything to contextualize what you just said. I thought it was beautiful, inspiring. I wanna thank you for being a guest on the MS Improv Podcast. I look forward to when this airs. we'll be sharing it all through our socials and gems, etc. ladies and gentlemen, this is and has been the MS Improv Podcast where we've engaged, where we've tried to be mindful. Rob shared and told some stories. we are powered by gems. And Rob, I pray and hope that the piece, which surpasses all understanding, continue to be with you. And when it's not, that you're reminded that you deserve the grace that you spoke about. Thank you for being a guest today. Thank you for having me, Eric.