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The Power Shift Changing Ocean Projects in Canada · How To Protect The Ocean

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  For decades, indigenous communities were often asked one question
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  when a major project came through their territory: Do you approve?
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  And today, many indigenous nations are asking a different question:
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  Why don't we own part of it?
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  This is the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, your weekday ocean news update.
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  to, so you don't miss tomorrow's story.
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  Earlier this week, or actually last week, I had the opportunity to moderate
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  a panel on indigenous leadership in ocean technology at a conference
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  called H2O in Halifax, Canada.
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  Wonderful conference.
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  We had a great time, and this panel was wonderful.
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  We talked to Ken Paul from Pokiok Associates.
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  We talked to Barry Stevens, who's an engineer.
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  He's got an engineering background.
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  We talked to Richard McLennan.
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  He's not indigenous, but he works with a lot of indigenous communities,
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  and he owns a energy company.
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  And interesting is, while the discussion was focused on ocean
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  technology, one idea kept coming up over and over again, ownership.
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  Not consultation, which a lot of the times, we'll see on major projects here
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  in Canada, was to say, "Oh, there's a consultation process." Not consultation,
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  not participation, ownership.
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  Today, I wanna talk to you about why that shift matters and how it's already
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  happening across Canada and what it could mean for the future of ocean
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  conservation and ocean technology.
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  And, to be honest, just conservation in general across Canada.
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  For a long time, major development projects in Canada
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  followed a familiar pattern.
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  A company would develop a project.
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  That project would be announced.
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  Governments would get involved.
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  Then indigenous communities would often be consultants somewhere along the process.
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  Now, when I say consulted, sometimes they were just told that it was happening.
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  Sometimes even if they were consulted, the project went on
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  anyway, even if they didn't approve.
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  A lot of injustice has been happening in Canada against indigenous communities.
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  I am not indigenous.
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  I am still in the learning process.
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  I'll just give you a little background of terms of when I was young, what
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  I learned about indigenous people.
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  All we learned when we were in elementary school, when we learned about it, we
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  learned about the wars that they had.
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  We learned about the brutality.
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  We learned about the quote-unquote savagery.
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  We never really learned about the sophistication of the culture.
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  We never learned about the religious nature of the culture or the fact
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  that they were one with environments, one with the land, one with the
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  water, and how sustainable they were.
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  We never really learned that.
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  Well, that has changed a little bit now.
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  To be honest, when I was younger, I didn't even know about residential
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  schools, and that was huge issue even when I grew up in the '80s.
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  So there's a lot of stuff that happened, including even today, where indigenous
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  communities are quote-unquote consulted, but they don't necessarily have a say.
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  They're told about a process, but they don't always have a say.
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  There's a lot of nuances in the types of treaties or ceded land.
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  Some of the things get so complicated, I don't even understand how it all works.
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  I'm still learning how it all works.
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  Sometimes the consultations were meaningful, which is great.
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  Other times it looked like it was gonna be a protest and a lot
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  of the times it was a standoff.
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  But the structure was largely the same.
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  The project existed first, the conversation with indigenous
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  communities came later.
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  And what I heard during this panel was something different.
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  Increasingly, indigenous nations are looking beyond consultation.
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  They're looking at ownership.
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  They're asking, "If a development is happening on our territories,
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  why shouldn't we be partners?" Think about have that flips the narrative
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  of like, hey, this pipeline's coming through or this oil and gas, or we're
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  gonna drill in this area, but you're not gonna get any of that money, to
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  switching it to be like, " Why shouldn't we have equity in these projects?
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  If they're going through our land, our land is going to pay for the consequences.
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  We should have the ability to pay for cleaning up that land or paying for that
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  land to be sustainable or paying for the messes that these companies make."
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  ' Cause let's be honest, a lot of these companies will go through indigenous land
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  and whatever that category may be, and they would ruin it, and they wouldn't have
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  to pay for it, depending on the agreement, they may not have to pay for it.
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  Now, the question's like, why shouldn't we have equity?
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  Why shouldn't we have governance authority?
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  Why shouldn't we help shape the future of these projects?
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  I think that's a really important switch.
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  When I heard that, and Ken Paul said that on the panel, I'm
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  like, that's really interesting.
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  Case in point, in, uh, Nova Scotia, there's a seafood company called
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  Clearwater, a pretty big seafood company.
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  And at this point in time, as I record this, Clearwater's owned 50% by
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  Indigenous people because it's on their land, the processes happen on their land,
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  it happens in their territorial waters.
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  These are really interesting times where First Nations are saying, "Hey,
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  we should be a part of this, and we have the ability to be a part of this." And
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  I think that's a really important switch in how we are discussing what happens.
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  And it was really interesting 'cause, like, when Ken Paul said that on the panel
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  the other day, I was like, wow, that is an interesting way of thinking of things.
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  And I think what's nice about hearing that is, like, a lot of the times,
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  people will assume that First Nations don't know what they're talking about.
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  They go in assuming that outside influences are better, they can educate.
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  That's not true.
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  More and more Indigenous people are educated in the different technologies.
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  They're educated in how the land works, especially when it
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  comes to natural resources like fisheries or forestry and so forth.
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  And so they know a lot more than a lot of people give them credit for.
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  And so when people come in and try and build these relationships or
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  tell the Indigenous communities what they need to do with their
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  land, it doesn't work anymore.
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  That's not gonna happen.
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  Indigenous people want sustainability on their land.
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  If you're gonna work on their land, one, they want financial
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  sustainability, but they also want environmental sustainability.
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  They wanna be able to dictate what they can and cannot do on the
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  property, on their land, so that they can live there for generations
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  and generations in the future.
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  That's their land.
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  They own that land.
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  They were there first, and they still have that land.
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  And I think that was really a, key thing, and I think that's where the audience
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  of the, like, when we were watching this panel, really kind of really perked up,
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  being like, "Oh, this is new." 'Cause a lot of companies that were there were
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  energy companies, telecommunication companies, and I think a lot of them
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  kind of perked up and was like, "Wow, okay, so this is how things are changing.
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  The landscape is changing.
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  The, what Indigenous communities want is changing." And I think it's for
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  the better for Canada in general.
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  And I think that's what's really important because as much as they've
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  been through, the Indigenous communities have been through with residential
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  schools and the oppression and being left out of conversations and being
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  talked to after and talked down to and treated like crap, there's a lot of
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  resilience within these communities, and there's a resilience to be one and
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  respect land, water, and ocean, and air.
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  It really is, and it's incredible to be able to hear these panelists
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  speak and how important it is to them.
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  A lot of times when things are proposed to them, they make decisions based
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  off of, is it good for the community?
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  Is it good for the environment?
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  And does the community and the environment benefit?
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  And as I sat there listening to the discussion, I realized that this wasn't
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  really a conversation about technology, but it was a conservation about power
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  and how power is being taken back by the indigenous community on their land, and
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  they just want what's right for them.
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  And this isn't just a theory.
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  It's already happening.
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  We're already seeing this across Canada.
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  One of the best examples comes from the ocean itself.
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  In 2021, a coalition of Mi'kmaq First Nations acquired 50%
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  ownership of Clearwater Seafoods, just like I had mentioned.
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  Think about that for a second.
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  This wasn't a benefit agreement.
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  This wasn't a consultation process.
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  This wasn't a company seeking approval.
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  This was ownership.
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  One of the largest seafood companies in North America became
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  half-owned by indigenous nations.
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  That changes the conversation because ownership means influence,
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  and ownership means long-term revenue for these communities.
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  Ownership means a seat at the decision-making table.
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  And Clearwater isn't the only example.
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  Across Canada, Indigenous nations are increasingly becoming equity partners
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  in major projects, energy projects, infrastructure projects, resource
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  projects, transportation projects.
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  The model is evolving.
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  And I think this is where Canada benefits.
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  Because now, because of the culture and the respect that Indigenous people
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  have for the land and the sea, and the fresh water, of course, we're gonna
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  start seeing projects managed properly.
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  We're not gonna just see greed being taken over, and that those projects
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  not managed for sustainable environment.
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  And I think that's where the benefit really comes.
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  There's a lot of major projects happening in Canada that are
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  proposed for Canada, pipelines, oil and gas development, mining.
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  All these things are part of this new world order that we're seeing
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  because the US is adding unfair tariffs and things on Canada.
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  Canada has to change because the US is our biggest trading partner.
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  Prime Minister Mark Carney is changing the landscape and developing
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  all these projects, so we are an oil and gas nation, unfortunately.
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  And so our oil and gas is a big part of our economy.
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  So now if we can develop this economy to go to the west and go to the east
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  through pipelines, we can make a lot more money, I guess, is what's happening.
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  But unfortunately, in the past, the way things were done
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  things were fast-forwarded.
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  When it goes through Indigenous land, Indigenous people have the say.
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  And a memorandum of understanding that was signed between the province of Alberta
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  and the federal government, and Alberta is where most of our tar sands live.
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  That's where they're extracted.
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  The memorandum of understanding says that the Indigenous communities where
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  these pipelines are gonna go through have to have final say whether they can
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  go through or not, and that's gonna come with this equity, come with this demand
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  for sustainable living and making sure that these projects are environmentally
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  safe or as safe as possible.
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  And we're gonna see what happens with that.
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  We're gonna see if that is true, and we're gonna see if if
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  these decisions are made for the environment as well with that respect.
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  Who knows what's gonna happen?
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  But I feel a lot better about it now that Indigenous people are going
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  to be demanding equity, which means they get influence, they get seats
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  at the table, and they get a say.
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  I think that's really important 'cause these communities have been
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  talking about how important the environment is to them, their culture,
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  their history, and their future.
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  Like with fisheries, with Clearwater, It was a landmark deal.
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  Ocean management's gonna get better because, again, the
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  sustainability aspect of it.
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  And of course, it's gonna connect to, economic development, stewardship,
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  and then also, like, ownership.
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  What that's gonna mean for the future generations of fisheries?
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  So if they own 50%, they can make decisions on where
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  they get their fish from.
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  So fishers will have to obey their rules in how they get those fish coming in.
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  That could be a good thing for the environment, for the
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  ocean, which I'm looking forward to seeing what's happening.
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  But I
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  guess what I'm gonna ask you is, like, what changes when a community goes
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  from being consulted to being an owner?
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  I think that's a really powerful thing.
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  I often see on podcasts You know, a lot of different podcasts where people are
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  gaining ownership, and especially on podcasts from Black creators I've noticed
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  in the US, where they go from not just selling their rights and their IP of
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  their podcast to these networks and stuff.
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  They keep the IP, and they kinda lease out their IP for a certain time, but they
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  keep the ownership, and they talk about how ownership is really important to them.
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  Because ownership, they have the decisions.
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  They're not controlled by a company, by a network of a podcast network.
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  Or, like, if they're in the music industry, they want ownership
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  because the music industry, we know how bad they can be.
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  Or, if they own businesses.
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  Like, you know, you see athletes, A lot of the podcasts I watch are athletic.
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  That's why I'm mentioning this.
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  I've seen podcasts about podcasts, and these are Black creators who
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  are coming out and owning podcast studios and masterminds, and the
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  ownership is important to them.
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  Because when they have ownership, now all of a sudden, the economics are in
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  their favor, the decision is, making is in their favor, and that's important.
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  And more and more people are learning that ownership is really important
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  for them and their future and their sustainability in that future.
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  Because you have different incentives when you're an owner.
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  You have different governance structures.
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  You have different accountability when you're doing that.
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  And I think that's something for me as this podcast, How To
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  Protect The Ocean, I find that because I own the rights to the IP.
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  I've never sold it to anybody, I've never had anybody take control of it.
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  I get to control what I talk about.
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  So what I feel that it's important for you to know for whether it's science,
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  whether it's conservation, whether it's, like, job hunting, whether it's
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  how people are being treated within the science and conservation, ocean
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  science and conservation world or even the broader science and conservation
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  field, that's important to me to have that control, to remain independent.
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  To retain that ownership of what I could put on this show.
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  'Cause I can change it up.
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  I can go one episode a week.
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  I can go one episode a month.
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  I can go to five episodes a week or seven episodes a week.
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  One a day if I choose to, if I have the time and I have the energy to do so.
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  And I think that's important to me.
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  That's important to me because I think it's important for the audience to
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  have that ability to make sure that I'm not being influenced by anything.
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  I'm having people on that I think are amazing, and I think that's great.
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  I wanna continue to have that, where I'm talking about subject matters
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  that I think is really important.
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  And I think that's really big, especially when it comes to
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  rights holders and stakeholders.
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  Even just that, the differences in those names, I've talked about it before.
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  Ken Paul, he was on another panel at World Ocean Summit, and he talked a
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  lot about how there's stakeholders, and there's rights holders.
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  Rights holders own the land.
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  They have the right to that land.
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  They don't just have a stake in it, trying to get something out of it.
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  So a lot of the times, we include indigenous people as stakeholders,
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  but they're really rights holders.
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  They should have the final say on that land if it's happening on their land.
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  That's what's really important when it comes to these types of conversations.
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  And so now hearing that there's gonna be equity ownership in a lot of these
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  major projects, it makes me feel better about the future of Canada's environment.
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  I think that's something that we can see happening in many years to come.
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  And I think this is where like, ocean technology enters the picture.
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  The panel I moderated wasn't about fisheries.
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  It wasn't just about seafood companies or oil and gas.
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  It was about ocean technology, and that's where things really get
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  interesting because we're entering a period where ocean technology is
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  becoming increasingly important.
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  AI, autonomous vehicles, ocean sensors, mapping technologies, data platforms,
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  environmental monitoring systems.
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  These tools will shape how we understand and manage the ocean.
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  But the question is: Who owns them?
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  Who controls the data?
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  Who decides how they're going to be used, and who benefits from the
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  economic opportunities they create?
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  Historically, Indigenous communities have often participated in projects
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  after the major decisions were already made, and that is really crappy,
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  and it pisses a lot of people off.
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  And you wonder why Indigenous people are so angry when these
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  decisions are made without them.
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  But if ownership is becoming the new model in fisheries and
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  infrastructure, could it become the new model in ocean technology as well?
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  That's the question I think we'll be hearing much more from over the next
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  decade because I think it's gonna be interesting to see, especially with
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  ocean sovereignty and who controls the ocean and who has access to the
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  ocean, and how Indigenous people and government are gonna work together
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  to ensure that they have that access.
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  That's gonna be a really interesting process in seeing
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  what happens in the future.
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  We look at data sovereignty, we look at Indigenous-led innovation, Indigenous
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  led monitoring programs, community-based technology development, local priorities
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  that will drive technology adoption.
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  Like, these are all things that I think is gonna be huge.
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  And one of the biggest things that was said at the panel as I wrap things
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  up here is, Ken Paul mentioned, we've been living together, Indigenous and
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  non-Indigenous for over 500 years, yet we barely know each other.
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  There's been social structures and pressures that have really kept
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  us from engaging with each other.
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  And I think when you really come down to the brass tacks, if you will.
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  It's just getting to know each other.
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  We have to be in a part of just getting to know each other, getting to a point
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  where we can build relationships from an individual basis, we can start trusting
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  each other and start creating friendships in these professional relationships.
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  I think that's something that is really important.
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  Strip away the stereotypes we have of each other and be able to work
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  together, because I think we're gonna benefit from each other if we do.
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  And I think like that combination is gonna be great in the future, especially
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  when it comes to the environment.
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  That's really what left me after that.
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  I was like, "Oh, this is really, really cool. This is something
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  that we can look into the future." And like what happens next?
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  I think we're watching like a broader shift happen in Canada, a shift from
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  consultation toward partnership to a shift from participation toward ownership,
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  and I think that's gonna be a powerful shift, a shift from being included in
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  conversations to helping lead them.
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  And will every project follow that?
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  Probably not.
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  Will every partnership succeed?
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  Probably not.
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  But the trend is becoming increasingly clear.
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  More indigenous nations are seeking equity positions.
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  More governments are supporting those approaches.
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  And more industries are recognizing that ownership creates stronger
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  relationship than consultation alone.
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  And if that trend continues, it could fundamentally change how ocean projects
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  are developed in this country and how, like, the economics are gonna change
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  within these indigenous communities.
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  I think that's what we're really seeing here.
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  Like, you know, the potential of offshore wind, ocean monitoring
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  networks, blue economy projects, marine transportation infrastructure,
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  emerging technology companies.
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  We're really gonna start to see a shift in how things are going
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  to change in the future, whether it's near future or far from it.
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  It's gonna change.
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  I think that's really interesting.
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  The question I ask to you, like, what would ocean conservation look like if
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  communities most connected to the ocean were also among the largest owners
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  of the projects operating there?
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  Let's think about that for a sec. I think we're at a very
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  good position in the future.
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  The most important thing I learned from moderating this panel wasn't just about
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  technology, it was about ownership.
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  Because when communities move from being consulted to becoming partners and owners,
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  the conversation changes completely, and that shift may end up shaping the future
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  of ocean conservation in Canada, and even land conservation in Canada, as
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  much as any new technology we could ever see, whether it be AI or anything else.
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  That's it for today's episode.
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  If you enjoyed today's and you wanna hear tomorrow's, follow How to Protect
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  the Ocean for your next Ocean weekday update, because I think this is something
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  that we're trying to change the culture, change around just discussing the ocean,
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  thinking about the ocean from one of using it as a natural resource to using
• 17:57
  it and respecting it as we use it.
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  I think that's really important, and we can definitely learn from our indigenous
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  friends and communities about how to manage the planet, manage the land,
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  manage the freshwater, and manage the sea.
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  I think it's something that's really important.
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  But that's it for today's episode.
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  If you wanna get a hold of me, you can do so.
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  Just go to the show notes, all my socials are there.
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  DM me on Instagram, TikTok, whatever you'd like.
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  I'd be more than happy to continue this conversation that we started here.
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  But that's it for today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
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  Have a great day.
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  We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.