Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / The Scandalous Life of Emperor Augustus' Only Daughter with The Partial Historians
Transcript
- zaza: The partial historians is a podcast about ancient roman history it's hosted by historians dr.fiona radfort and dr. peta greenfield who discussed spar and laughed their way through different aspects of the roman world dr rad r g welcome to euro trash peta_and_fiona: thank you for having us it's a pleasure to zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: be here zaza: absolute absolute pleasure first off let me tell you that i am a massive fan of your work and your podcast you cover peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: so many interesting and well research topics you cover them in so many different ways you do long episodes peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: you do short episodes peta_and_fiona: ah zaza: you do interviews you connect ancient history with popular culture like game of thrones peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: um but no matter the format the underlying passion is just like always there you know a lot of these ongoing podcasts just kind of loose steam as they go along peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: um but that's totally not peta_and_fiona: i zaza: the case with you and for me as a bit of a new kid on the block it's really cool to see so yeah everybody who's into history and hasn't done it already go check out the partial historians after you finish listening to us all right peta_and_fiona: right zaza: so peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: when i reached out to you i asked if peta_and_fiona: as zaza: you could propose a topic for this episode and you immediately suggested that we talk about augustus s scandalous female latives the two julias now a bit of a disclosure i did have latin in high school for a couple of years picked up a little bit of peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: history in class tiny bit but honestly most of my knowledge about ancient rome comes from the bo show rome and peta_and_fiona: kay zaza: from the gladiator of course peta_and_fiona: naturally zaza: which i got to admit i still peta_and_fiona: yes zaza: love unashamedly peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: as fifteen year old i had it on a golden vaches tape and i just kept re watching it until you know all of my favorite parts which were basically just comets going a bit crcra peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: became like white noise peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: so long story short peta_and_fiona: ah zaza: since we're not going to be talking about you know julius caesar here i had to do a little bit of reading thank you vikipade peta_and_fiona: uh zaza: about the two julias peta_and_fiona: yes zaza: and pretty quickly realized that the two julias are not some obscure historical personalities and be even though this seems like a quite a specific topic there's so much stuff we can talk about through their pretty amazing stories but before we dive into those i first wanted to ask what was life in the era of augustus the first roman emperor like for for women or let's say for aristocratic women to narrow it down a little bit peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: i know it's this is a big question peta_and_fiona: it's zaza: but peta_and_fiona: a big question zaza: let's let's just start big peta_and_fiona: it's big but it's important so i'm glad that that's where we're starting to be zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: an aristocratic woman in augustin sort of rome it's a chaotic time this is a place that just gone through massive sort of civil wars and the zaza: no peta_and_fiona: legacy that we're going to see with the jewelers is part of the zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: consequence of a real upheaval that rome has faced and there's no question that rome is in a state of flux people aren't sure what their lives are going to be like zaza: who peta_and_fiona: and they're not sure what decisions are the right decisions zaza: a peta_and_fiona: to make and because it's been a wall like sort of state i think people are feeling a bit free and easy zaza: i peta_and_fiona: about well maybe feeling a little bit fatalistic like maybe i could try anything i could do anything i could become zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: anybody under the right sort of circumstances and there seems to be those tantalizing possibilities for elite roman women to be free of some of the sort of the legal shackles that they've been constrained to and some of zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: the political shackles as well but this is going to lead to a lot of really interesting things happening and may be stirring up a little bit of trouble as well i think that zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: in the late republic we see far more women who we know zaza: um peta_and_fiona: by name we can trace some of their zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: actions we can trade some of their relationship s in a bit more detail because usually with women in rome they're not talked about in the same level of detail in terms of political developments and that sort of thing as we see for some of the women in the late republic and i think that's because zaza: a peta_and_fiona: we increasingly see men coming to the you know rather than like a body like the senate we see individual zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: men generals politicians coming more to the fore of the late republic and that means that their family members including the women have the potential to exercise i suppose a little bit more soft power than they might have in a previous period so you see women like fulvia for example who come to the four her relationship with several politicians but probably most notably people like mark antony and that i think that is there's the legacy of that as we go into augustin room as well because with augustus beings of the last standing after the civil war it also thrust his female relatives into more prominence than they might have been previously zaza: all right i'm not i mean i realize that every historian adores the period they research peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: of course and i don't want to instigate a beef between the people i invite to europe ash but i'm going to do just that a little bit because i had a fascinating conversation with dr nito isabel we talked about women's spirituality and mysticism in the middle ages it was fascinating yeah conversation and she said that contrary to popular belief women enjoyed quite a lot of freedoms in the middle ages it was only when picking up rome's peta_and_fiona: oh yeah zaza: ancient model of gender roles peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: in the renaissance do we get this oppression of women that we now associate with that period until she said that i thought you know in the words of the great maximus a russell crow peta_and_fiona: m zaza: rome is the light peta_and_fiona: m zaza: what do you think of that peta_and_fiona: look rome is definitely a huge patriarchal culture of that there is no question and zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: in the augustan period this is pretty much just as true as for all of rome's history and arguably as we get further into augustus sort of consolidating his power it's going to become more patriot go and the sort of aversion that you hope for from women is maybe going to be pushed down a little bit harsher by the sorts of things that happen under augustices rule women have a very distinct play um it's pretty constrained in many respects the fact that elite women have some freedoms is impressive but this is not a world that i think women would want to go back in time to live in not at all no i think it's in comparison zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: to say you zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: know classical greece it seems like men women have a good deal because they zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: seem to have a bit more freedom than some of the women you read about and say zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: athens but that's not saying much but they're still they're still quite constrained zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and restricted by their gender and the roles that they are required zaza: right peta_and_fiona: to play zaza: oh fair enough is it the same for working class women for women who are not aristocrats is it similar or peta_and_fiona: m zaza: or is it different peta_and_fiona: it's zaza: do peta_and_fiona: possible zaza: we not know much about that peta_and_fiona: it's possibly worse at least a rustic like four elite zaza: all peta_and_fiona: women zaza: right great peta_and_fiona: yeah like elite women do get some sort of benefits zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: and particularly what we see under augustus is he has this moral reform legislation which actually freeze up some elite women to live a little bit more on their own terms rather than under the strict guardianship of a male relative but working class women women who are enslaved freed women their constraints are even heavier and they're not relly released from a lot of these things in order for a freed woman for instance to gain the same benefits zaza: a peta_and_fiona: as an elite woman and this is only for some of those benefits she has to produce more children than an elite woman would for instance so the further down the hierarchy you go the more difficult your life become essentially yeah because roman zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: women one of the things that set them apart from say again greek women just using them as a comparison they can actually own property they can inherit an own property in their own right which if you're an elite woman might mean that you could potentially be wealthy if you happen to have if you were in a family where you know they and we have girls or all the men die off or whatever you might be lucky so you could potentially inherit a reasonable amount of wealth which might give you a bit more of that sort of you knows power in a sense because you're a wealthy person people aren't going to necessarily dismiss you perhaps zaza: all right if we go to julia the elder now the daughter of augustus how does her story really begin peta_and_fiona: it's controversial isn't it so she's born zaza: i peta_and_fiona: in zaza: know peta_and_fiona: thirty nine b c e and her mother is a woman called scrubonia and the real tragedy for julia starts at the very moment of birth because it's reported that zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: it's on the day that she's born that augustus lee scribonia to marry livia so we're not off to a great start zaza: great yeah what a dude peta_and_fiona: what a guy don't let anybody tell you that augustus is terribly great he's a pretty horrific guy zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: well hang on a second what zaza: nice peta_and_fiona: we have been arguing zaza: yes this peta_and_fiona: about zaza: is what peta_and_fiona: gustus zaza: i wanted peta_and_fiona: have been zaza: i peta_and_fiona: arguing about augustus versus tiberius for so many years and then is the first time you have admitted there how terrible he really is zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: look justice is my man but but he zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: is a problem he is a problem yeah zaza: okay i read peta_and_fiona: i read zaza: that novel in letters by that american author about augustus i don't know what peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: is it just called augustus or something and there he's just pretty much the best guy ever peta_and_fiona: yeah you wouldn't be wary zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: of stories that are that one sided no augusta i mean he's zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: not not a great guy i mean he does leave crabonia zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: his wife on the day that she zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: gives birth to his only living zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: descendant as it turns out although he doesn't know that of course at the time but you zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: really really walked away from a good deal there in his defense zaza: so he just like ghosted peta_and_fiona: uh zaza: her immediately after she gave birth peta_and_fiona: yeah you dumped zaza: m peta_and_fiona: in his defense he had already i think set his eyes on livia before this time zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: so i don't think it was zaza: no i got to give the camotes here peta_and_fiona: i don't he's terrible but i mean i don't think it would have been a shock to scribonia exactly zaza: a peta_and_fiona: i don't think scriboniar shocked disappoint maybe julia the lder is zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: born and she comes into this world she's not known as the elder obviously she's just julia and zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: it's not long before augustus is utilizing his daughter new issues to this world to further his political aspirations this is also zaza: m peta_and_fiona: going to across is zaza: m peta_and_fiona: pretty terrible but this is also not out of step with what roman men did with their children regardless of gender so she's engaged very early on she's about two i think when she makes her first gagemant got to put a ring on it so small zaza: sorry she's two years old peta_and_fiona: two years zaza: when she's peta_and_fiona: old zaza: engaged peta_and_fiona: yeah yeah she is engaged zaza: so this is some sort of a symbolic arrangement or or what peta_and_fiona: yeah so the idea is that this promise will come to fruition when she is legally able to wed which zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: for an elite roman girl is the age of eve zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: your silence zaza: m peta_and_fiona: is zaza: m oh peta_and_fiona: tell you what zaza: i didn't want to say anything peta_and_fiona: silence is the zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: best response so around two she's engaged to zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: antonius the son of mark zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: antony this zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: is something that is done as a real political move connected with a treaty that takes place at torrentum in that year and so they're trying to broke or a deal because mark antony and octavia zaza: the peta_and_fiona: octavian will go on to be augustus octavia and antony don't get along they're kind of fighting it out over who will get to be the top man in rome and zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: this is a moment of potential reconciliation where they're going to marry their children to each other to try and seal the deal for some sort of lasting peace this doesn't work out at all and it's zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: by the time she's about four years old she's rumoured to then have been engaged to a guy called cortiso who is a king of the date sons and this is supposed to be a new reciprocal arrangement where augustus will marry one of the daughters of the dacian king so he's going to flip off livia hook with this new foreign woman and also zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: marry his daughter into the zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: dation line so he left scrabonia it looks like he could possibly just leave livia as well and he's already up to his second engagement zaza: well peta_and_fiona: for his daughter julia zaza: yeah yeah hum peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: was julia raised by the famous livia peta_and_fiona: look it doesn't seem like she spends heaps of time with livia like she must be in that household to a certain extent but she seems to tain a really close relationship with her birth mother scrabonia and this will come become more clear zaza: hm peta_and_fiona: as time goes on so i think she's definitely in the household livia but zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: to what extent she's seeing her own birth mother not really sure they seem to be closed zaza: what peta_and_fiona: though and there must have been i think like some sort of rivalry not necessarily deadly claudian type rivalry but there must have been some sort of rivalry in the but zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: obviously zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: it's in livia's interests and augustus interest for them to have their own children who would presumably supersede julia and the place that she holds in there family didn't happen liver an augustus of course of the classic case you know zaza: m her peta_and_fiona: or all smoke no fire but there must have been a little bit of tension i suppose in those years when levi was presumably trying to get pregnant with augustus's child and it wasn't happening zaza: yeah okay speaking of i claudius of course livia is the ultimate historical badi there she's just poisoning people left peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: and right including her husband the emperor like it's nobody's peta_and_fiona: what zaza: business peta_and_fiona: is uh zaza: i think she gives some poisoned figs peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: or something it's peta_and_fiona: yep zaza: all very i peta_and_fiona: yep zaza: don't know it's very sensual peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: in a way is there any truth to her vill no reputation peta_and_fiona: well if you are some of the zaza: at peta_and_fiona: ancient zaza: all peta_and_fiona: sources yes it's probably a little bit of the zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: beat the ancient sources are pretty invested zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and maintaining patriarch the way that they understand it livia as a very elite roman woman who is in the public eye is sort of contravening the expectation that women will be in the house there will be seen not heard and all of that kind of thing she does seem to be political and involve ved in politics and involved in public life in ways that seem to go beyond what conservative romans expect this does lead to a huge amount of back lash that we see in our source material did she have zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: avorites rivals zaza: have peta_and_fiona: probably is it likely that she murdered her own child her own husband all the sorts of zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: these of rumoured zaza: yah peta_and_fiona: stories it seems may be a zaza: yah peta_and_fiona: little bit too much zaza: yeah augustus doesn't divorce her though even though they don't have a son together right peta_and_fiona: it zaza: he peta_and_fiona: must zaza: left peta_and_fiona: have been yeah zaza: you just told me that he left scribonia immediately peta_and_fiona: m m zaza: when she when she delivered a child peta_and_fiona: ah zaza: but he's not like divorcing livia his peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: second wife peta_and_fiona: and zaza: how come peta_and_fiona: i think this is a huge argument in olivia's favor to be honest and it's like if you have somebody in your home who is actively killing off all of the family members you might want to do something about that may be divorced them so i think we have to assume that the sex life was good and that they got along zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: on an intellectual level and that in some ways they're prob the soul mates which isn't saying much because augustus we've just acknowledged zaza: oh nice peta_and_fiona: is zaza: that's peta_and_fiona: awful they sleep around like it's not like zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: faithful to liviaththere are rumors though again this is probably part of the olivia beat out there rumors that as they get older that livia starts providing him with young girls to sleep with i suppose rather than her doing it herself i'm presuming that's the sub text there so zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: yeah if you provide them zaza: she peta_and_fiona: then zaza: so peta_and_fiona: at least you zaza: smart peta_and_fiona: know yeah at least you know who they are then but to get back to julia returning to zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: julia so she gets to about the age of fourteen fifteen and she does get to have zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: her first marriage this has been completely arranged for her as is definitely how rome worked in that time and she's married to her zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: first cousin marcellus and no it's not so bad he's about seventeen eighteen at the time of this marriage so they're zaza: a peta_and_fiona: roughly of an age and what's interesting the little detail that i quite like about this is that augustus isn't around when this marriage zaza: a peta_and_fiona: takes place he's off in hispania zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: doing some business and so it is agrippa very close friend who conducts zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: the marriage ceremony and weds these two zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: young people together so this is reinforcing the family it respects because this is marcellus is the son of octavia so augustus's sister maybe a bit gross but also it zaza: it's all getting kind of a game of thrones a little bit peta_and_fiona: oh it's going zaza: all peta_and_fiona: to zaza: of peta_and_fiona: get zaza: these peta_and_fiona: a lot worse zaza: connections peta_and_fiona: than this zaza: and intrigues okay great peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: fantastic peta_and_fiona: yeah cousins is nothing cousins is zaza: so peta_and_fiona: quite tasteful zaza: oh oh are we going ancient egypt here peta_and_fiona: oh yeah yeah zaza: um so emperor augustus peta_and_fiona: yes zaza: doesn't have any sons right like like we mention so is the main expectation he has for his daughter to produce as many male airs as possible peta_and_fiona: just banging out let right look i think in this zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: early period so this is around this marriage to between julia and marcellus is in round about zaza: i peta_and_fiona: twenty five b c it's probably augustus is reasonable expectation that there's still a chance to have his own children with livia that is a narrowing window of opportunity zaza: no peta_and_fiona: so he does recognize that he's kind of got one egg and rome is the basket so we're going to see what we can do with what we've got and marcellus as a great choice he seems like he's zaza: my peta_and_fiona: young up and coming given lots of favor by augustus and it seems like augustus is really pushing forward his career he does some certain things to create to smooth the path for marcellus to really succeed so allowing him to have a consulship zaza: no peta_and_fiona: ten years earlier than what he should so instead of having to wait till he's forty two he will be able to hold the concert ship when he's thirty two you nowhere near that age yet so don't worry but then there's this huge illness that comes through italy and marcellus is one of the ones who is sadly taken by this illness and he passes away in twenty three so zaza: i peta_and_fiona: julia and marcellus are only married for two years before marcellus untimely death and she's not pregnant when he dies they have no children zaza: no peta_and_fiona: as of yet zaza: yeah so she gets married to someone who just appeared in this story as well what peta_and_fiona: yes zaza: happens next peta_and_fiona: yes the man who had officiated her first wedding becomes her next husband zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: yeah i zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: mean she's known the thing is that julia is then married to agrippa and this is all matter of problematic zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: one she's known agrippa all of her life it's the guy who officiated zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: her last wedding dad's best zaza: i peta_and_fiona: friend dad's best friend zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: she's eighteen zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: nineteen he's forty two forty three it's it's a zaza: tree peta_and_fiona: little bit distasteful every little girl dreams of and zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: not only that but agrippa has to divorce his current wife who is also a marcella so the sister of marcellus zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: so another cousin has to divorce the cousin in order to marry julia you've had to break up a marriage in order to make this union happen and all of a sudden zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: julia she's not even twenty yet she is now married to a middle zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: aged dude but zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: this seems to do the trick zaza: that's a bummer peta_and_fiona: yeah his seems to do the trick because this is the guy that she has a ton of babies with zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: ah look whatever happens between them zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: it yields children yeah that's for sure at least officially anywhere zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: well so they so they say zaza: um peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: but almost immediately after getting married to agrippa there were rumours of infidelity on julius part how did the roman conception of an affair differ from ours or was it pretty much the same thing peta_and_fiona: definitely not the same so basically there are as you might expect double standards depending on what gender you were so a woman was not allowed to sleep with anyone aside from her husband and a man zaza: i peta_and_fiona: had a little bit more freedom so he's allowed to sleep with anybody who is of a lower status who is not a married citizen basically yeah so like in this case it would have been fine for agrippa to sleep around a lot and definitely not okay for julia to sleep around you could sleep with like a slave girl for example in their house and julia is not zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: supposed to get mad about that zaza: so how bad were these rumors for her peta_and_fiona: look i mean the rooms for they end up zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: being pretty bad persistent but i think we do have to take into account that everybody is pretty sure that she's a good person so like the way that julia comes across she's very popular zaza: like peta_and_fiona: with the roman people she's understood to be kind hearted generous with her time a really nice person and for a lot of people this means that they don't necessarily believe the rumors that might be swelling about but also she does a great job with making sure that all of the children that has looked like agrippa she does a really great job everybody zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: sees those kids and they're like he's clearly the dad and if you've seen zaza: i peta_and_fiona: statues of agrippa and i recommend that zaza: the famous quote right peta_and_fiona: the famous cat is that she never takes on zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: board passengers unless she already has cargo on board very clever zaza: i mean what a queen i'm just a fan right now peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: i'm just appreciating her peta_and_fiona: absolutely and she seems to be i think a bit caught up in these maybe these new freedoms you know we hear stories of her now dressing sort of sexaly and provocatively and her father sort of looking at her and being like really that's what you're wearing and then the next day she'll be dressed zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: really properly and he'll be like oh now that's an outfit she's like well today address for you dad yesterday address zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: my husband zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: so she's known for being incredibly sassy very smart clever and so she's the kind of person that you want to have zaza: yah peta_and_fiona: come to your parties like she continues to have a really wide set of and zaza: i peta_and_fiona: she has lots of connections amongst the elite zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: she's considered the foremost zaza: yes peta_and_fiona: woman in rome second only zaza: o peta_and_fiona: to livia and she's bearing the children that will contin augustus is line so like everything is going really well for her during her marriage to agrippa like she has julius gus julius caesar she has lucius julius caesar zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and she has a grippa postumus so she produces three sons but she also produces two daughters so she has five kids with agrippa and it's like so nobody can say she is not zaza: i peta_and_fiona: doing her part zaza: i peta_and_fiona: to bring the roman family of augustus zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: into like you know its fullest extent zaza: like so whatever happening you know when that is not looking they're kind of like you do your thing as long as you know you're perceived as being a good roman wife and woman it's kind of okay with us peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: is peta_and_fiona: it zaza: that peta_and_fiona: does zaza: a fair kind peta_and_fiona: it zaza: of peta_and_fiona: does zaza: assessment peta_and_fiona: really seem i've actually never asked opinion on this so i'm going to ask her zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: now great time to launch this on her i've actually always got the impression that augustus genuinely did not now that she was misbehaving so badly i mean if she was sleeping around like zaza: a peta_and_fiona: he knew she was a bit risky he knew she was a bit you know bit looser than he might like but i always get the impression that he genuinely did not realize the extent of her adultery such such as it may have existed there seems zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: to be a sense of it in the source material like there's the version where augustus genuinely loves zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: julia as his daughter like she is part of his world and he's obviously hugely immensely proud of her zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and she's going on to produce all of these children which are just huge texts and he seems to have generally zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: liked her as a person so i think there is that version of the narrative that comes through where he doesn't want to believe that the daughter that he loves and he's nourished and is doing zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: so much good work using these children is necessarily doing the wrong thing so he's like you know she's free spirited and there is a story where he compares zaza: i peta_and_fiona: her zaza: there peta_and_fiona: to another famous chase elite woman who was not thought to be chased which is claudia zaza: a peta_and_fiona: quinta and she's kind of this mythical figure but people thought that she was a litt but immodest in the way that she dressed and the way that she interacted with people so people thought that she was morally questionable but it turns out in a moment where she had prove her modesty and her chastity she zaza: ye peta_and_fiona: was able to do that in the eyes of the gods and everyone was like look appearances are not everything is how you act and when it comes down to it claudia quinta is an incredibly chased woman and so augustus has this idea that may be julius a bit like that yeah something does happen though because he changes his mind about julia zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: that will come up soon zaza: okay if we stop at this point where everything is going well for her what was her daily life like i read an article that said that she was the ancient version of kim cardashi peta_and_fiona: uh zaza: and i don't know if that's a fair comp probably not but some sort of a social light hanging out chilling throwing sick as parties is that kind of accurate peta_and_fiona: yea she sees herself zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: as one of the quotations that subscribed to her is that they ask her why she's zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: not like behaving in particular ways and she's like look caesar forgets that he sees her but i don't forget that i'm caesar's daughter and what she's meaning by this is that she understands zaza: what peta_and_fiona: to be at the pinnacle of roman society comes with a certain sense of how zaza: yes peta_and_fiona: you appear and she's willing to do the appearance so she's willing to dress in the high fashion she's will to hang out with the cool kids she's willing to go to whichever party is the hottest zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: party in town she's zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: willing to appear at the games with people that might be slightly disreputable but mean that people are talking about her look he's hanging out with julia now and so she does all of that kind of stuff and she seems very happy to do that but she's also on the flip side quite a beautiful wife so agrippa is augustus's zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: main military guy i don't think anybody would argue that augustus is a great military figure he outsources a lot of that and he out sources most of it zaza: a peta_and_fiona: to agrippa zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: and agrippa is good at what he does and so he gets sent over to the east and julia goes with him and so she does that whole with him turns up there is a story that we get told where she is crossing the river scamanda near troy late at night and nearly drown zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: ounds but she's determined that she's going to get across to be where agrippa is and she survives zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: but grip is very upset that people didn't try to save her more and he's like she nearly died so there seems to be a strong connection zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: between those two and some of her children are born in different places they're not all born in rome because she's following him around and going on the campaign trail with him she does all of this stuff as well where it's like putting up the right appearances zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: showing your face over seas to the people and you know i saw dr rad doing the royal way very much that kind of thing zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and so she's got these two sides to her as well where it's like if she has to play serious she seems to be able to carry it and when she's got the opportunity to have fun she's down zaza: oh all right speaking of fun peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: what did the roman party have to have peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: to be considered a success was it the classic peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: recipe of good good music and sexy people or was there more to it peta_and_fiona: you've got to have good food as well obviously i think your guest list is zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: you know zaza: forgot that peta_and_fiona: very zaza: one peta_and_fiona: important location can come into it as well but yeah getting the right people in the right place at the right time zaza: i peta_and_fiona: i don't think the characteristics were a good party have ever really they might have it set out around three zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: couch they might be lying down to yeahexactly and there are slaves generally we don't have slaves at wodendayparties zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: hm yeah zaza: all right sorry about this i just got to ask because i have you here was that bit about vomiting at parties peta_and_fiona: ye zaza: true or is that peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: just a cliche that's peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: not really accurate peta_and_fiona: it's it's both yes and no people talk about the voumatorium that's unconnected to what happens at parties that's zaza: the peta_and_fiona: like zaza: vomatorium peta_and_fiona: how you zaza: okay i'm peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: going to steal that one peta_and_fiona: that's how you get out of this like the that describes a part of a building it doesn't describe the act that happens at parties but yes there is there is that idea zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: in ancient rome that you would eat until you were full and then you were going from it and then you would come back to eat more because that was a demonstration of zaza: a peta_and_fiona: your ability to be able zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: to consume that much and also suggested your wealth because you are able to keep eating less about the vomiting and more about your ability to continue to consume this is obviously very elite people who could afford to do this kind of thing obviously your lower down social spectrum i don't care what part of your throwing you're not vomishing up the food not intentionally zaza: you need those calories peta_and_fiona: yeah unless the fish sauce is bad and i don't really know how zaza: what peta_and_fiona: the fish zaza: about peta_and_fiona: sauce zaza: the peta_and_fiona: could be any worse zaza: what about the bit um of like wiping your oily hands into the hair of slaves or a dog peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: at a party is peta_and_fiona: look zaza: that real peta_and_fiona: i mean i've never heard of that i'm going to say i'm not sure don't quote zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: me but zaza: i don't know where i got that from peta_and_fiona: that seems rude yeah zaza: okay back to julia peta_and_fiona: m zaza: eventually i hope i'm peta_and_fiona: m zaza: not skipping a whole lot but eventually augustus passes a set peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: of very strict laws to peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: promote family values what were peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: these and why did he actually pass them peta_and_fiona: his moral legislation so he seems to be on a moral legislation bent zaza: that sounds scary peta_and_fiona: it is it is it is and he confesses that zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: maybe it was unsuccessful so he learned his lesson but laws are laws and they don't get taken away for a long time he seems to have a pro to type sort of moral legislation thing zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: as early as sort of twenty eight b c zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: but it's not until eighteen b c that we get the first sort of official law zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: but zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: that law zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: also gets modified zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and adapted by a second law which comes up in nine c and so even in the ancient period people a little bit confused about which clauses were for which law in particular so usually people talk about these laws together as the lex uliapappia zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: and this forms the moral legislation and it's got do with all sorts of things that's kind of like a suite of benefits if you do zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: get married and you do produce children zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: legitimate children legitimate zaza: i peta_and_fiona: den not just any children and then there zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: are sort of the punishment if you remain unwed or you don't have enough legitimate children zaza: a peta_and_fiona: so there's kind of like the cart and the stick element to these a set of moral laws zaza: m yeah into days contact just seems a bit peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: like extreme right wing demagogy peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: a little bit now like some sort of a dictator and like i don't know or flaemirputin just like peta_and_fiona: uh zaza: coming up with this peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: like you got to have kids now or peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: else peta_and_fiona: well he's trying zaza: and peta_and_fiona: to yeah he's trying to boost zaza: but peta_and_fiona: that zaza: why peta_and_fiona: right zaza: did he peta_and_fiona: yeah there's a real concern zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: that at the elite aren't producing enough children parting way too much sleeping with people that aren't their legitimate partners zaza: i see peta_and_fiona: so people are living zaza: yes peta_and_fiona: a life style that is zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: not necessarily conducive to producing lots of children and zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: time legitimate zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: dren and this means zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: but i mean ironically we're coming on the back of a where thousands of people have been executed so i mean are we down numbers because we killed lots of people or are we down numbers because we didn't have enough zaza: right peta_and_fiona: babies i mean there's zaza: well peta_and_fiona: some questions to be asked and it's also that aspect of us the ancient world that whilst it's still dangerous to have children in these days particularly you know obviously in some parts of the world you're zaza: a peta_and_fiona: probably more at risk than at others but in the action world everybody doesn't matter what your status is is at risk when zaza: ye peta_and_fiona: giving birth and the children are at risk you know zaza: m peta_and_fiona: there's obviously that high mortality rate so people even if they are having lots of children it's like well how many are actually surviving zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: know how many women are actually surviving there's also that additional risk factor in terms of the doing the telling the numbers zaza: is there also like an element of prudishness on augustus's part peta_and_fiona: oh massively zaza: here like peta_and_fiona: for zaza: you peta_and_fiona: a zaza: know peta_and_fiona: man zaza: you got peta_and_fiona: who zaza: to be married peta_and_fiona: sleeps around zaza: you got to be married you can't have kids outside of your marriage like so is it about numbers or is it also about peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: him being a bit weird about sex peta_and_fiona: it's about numbers but it's also about control for sure because it's not like augustus holds zaza: right peta_and_fiona: himself to the high standard of his moral legislation as he gets older zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: he tends to seem to be keeping to the moral precepts that he set out a little better than he did when he was a young man zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: but it's not like he came into this you know smelling of roses himself zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: as a moral individual so zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: there seems to be there does seem to be a little bit of control at play and i zaza: my peta_and_fiona: think you can read this very much particularly control of elite women because they're bearing zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: the brunt of the child birth aspect but there's plenty of punishments in there as well for elite men in terms of their ability to inherit if they remain unwed and don't have enough legitimate children and they can marry as well isn't it they have to marry women of a certain class they have to they have to marry within class so senatorial zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: people have to marry senatorial people and the idea that you could have other unions but if it doesn't fall within the legislation those unions strictly speaking don't count for the purposes of the law so there are lots of ways in which he's trying to control everything about how elite society works from the domestic sphere out winds it's a very right wing idea as you noted and zaza: a peta_and_fiona: it seems to be sort of harkening back to this more zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: pure time that rome apparently zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: had you know all the way back in like that monarchy and the early zaza: a peta_and_fiona: republic it's supposed ly like it's basically let's make rome great again by returning to those purer more rural zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: simpler times and it's part of this whole thing where he sort zaza: a peta_and_fiona: of idealizes zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: you know country life the simple farmer who will leave his farm in order to serve zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: the state in war and then return to his zaza: yes peta_and_fiona: farm with no ambitions whatsoever it's kind of those sorts of ideas that we see coming through the more that his rule progresses zaza: m i hope he didn't invent a special hat when he created these laws peta_and_fiona: you'll zaza: um peta_and_fiona: never know zaza: anyway is this around the time where he changes his mind about his daughter peta_and_fiona: now zaza: julia the elder peta_and_fiona: well no as it happens another zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: husband to go eighteen b c when this first law comes zaza: oh wow peta_and_fiona: out zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: like julia is in her prime she's zaza: ye peta_and_fiona: in the middle of having zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: kids with a gripe and traveling around with him on campaign and doing the royal wave she's having a great time in twelve b zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: c agrippa dies a few years after this moral first suite of moral legislation comes in zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: agrippa is sadly lost he's in his fifties julia is already pregnant with what will be their fifth child together so everybody knows that it's his zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and when he comes out they're like yeh that's another agrippa that's why he's called agrippa postumus because he was born postumously of his father a lot zaza: yeah right peta_and_fiona: and zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: so it's at this point zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: that zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: you know julia zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: might reasonably think that she's done her part to help out her dad she's had a couple of marriages zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: she's had five zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: kids three sons augustus is very interested in bringing those grandchildren of here into the fold so he looks to adopt them and sort of like if they were his own sons so that's cute but he also decides that julia definitely needs to be re married almost instantly and she seems maybe zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: not so down for another marriage but it zaza: geez peta_and_fiona: happens anyway and she gets a little bit keener zaza: wow peta_and_fiona: because zaza: take a chill pill augustus he seems he reminds me of that of of who's that guy in game of thrones the head of the lancaster family ty win peta_and_fiona: ah well he has to keep with his own moral legislation zaza: a little bit he's just peta_and_fiona: so zaza: like you're going to marry again you peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: can still produce kids peta_and_fiona: she can zaza: right peta_and_fiona: she can and also it means that zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: he's zaza: wow peta_and_fiona: up he's upholding zaza: he wasn't peta_and_fiona: his zaza: wrong peta_and_fiona: yeah it also zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: means he's upholding the moral legislation that zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: he's introduced because the idea zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: that you're unwed for a specific zaza: it peta_and_fiona: amount of time means that she will be punished so he's like well we've got to organize another wedding for us or get her off the hook for that and she ends up getting married to her step brother tiberius zaza: it peta_and_fiona: so she's kind of keen because he's apparently prick hot sources differ whether zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: disagree like i know dr rad's zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: just gone in with the hotness vote but i don't know have you seen tiberius i mean don't don't buy what she's putting down please statues zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: are all but tiberius she either julia either has a crush zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: on him which would be weird because they also grew up together just saying as stepbrother zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: and stepsister zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: or she is zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: really sort of like just over him him being the step brother and she's like i can't believe you're asking me to marry my step brother like of all of the people to make things worse an i do an so zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: tiberius is already married of course and so augustus has to a divorce for him now tiberias seems to be particularly keen on his wife he seems to genuinely have been in love with her so sweet and she was actually related to a group so it's weird because zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: his wife is i think a daughter of group zaza: i peta_and_fiona: of agrippa previous that's weird zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and basically he's so sad about zaza: thank peta_and_fiona: being apart from her zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: that he apparently holds a ground against the next guy to lie forever and also zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: they have to kind of stage manage that he never runs into her because when he sees her he kind of just like stops dead in public just stares at her longingly i like to imagine zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: like tears in his eyes zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: and zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: hungry eyes playing or something like zaza: kay peta_and_fiona: that zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: so fair to say that tiberius zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: has not gotten over first wife he's really traditional he's really conservative really traditional it may be the case zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: that the wedding of julia and tiberius is doomed from the beginning zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: but to make things worse there is also the rumor that zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: julia has had a long time love of it with a certain simpronious zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: raccus zaza: yah peta_and_fiona: that has been going zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: on while she was with agrippa and while she does give marriage to tiberius a good will and she falls pregnant and the child zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: sadly doesn't make it zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: it is apparently not long before she turns to her lover and being like get me out of here zaza: love peta_and_fiona: this guy is idiot don't want to be zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: married to him he feels the same way they feel the same way it becomes pretty rocky it's very child and do i think you zaza: very peta_and_fiona: forced into the wedding zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: except julia is zaza: the peta_and_fiona: charles i guess zaza: no peta_and_fiona: anyway zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: so some rumors to zaza: thank peta_and_fiona: that zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: julia writes a really impassioned letter to augustus to let him know how ridiculous a human she thinks tiberius really is on the rumors also suggest that this letter was penned by sempronius gracchus and she just signed her name to it really so they were getting there sort of their lovers anger energy out and sent it off to augustus anyway zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: he's he doesn't care zaza: a peta_and_fiona: he's like when you're married so you just zaza: no peta_and_fiona: gonna have to deal with it and then tiberius throws a temper tantrum and stumps off to caprice julia was not his ideal wife i zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: mean clearly he had a valid reason to go into self a first exile obviously zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: yeah at's what you do when you're a grown man you throw zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: it rent i'm off last four years like i'm not coming back home i don't like it there we got to hang zaza: uh peta_and_fiona: out with like philosophers and astronomers you did not want zaza: h peta_and_fiona: me to talk about what happens on capri we're not dealing with that today zaza: what happens on capri peta_and_fiona: no no i'm so glad you are that's well zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: into his zaza: yeah ah peta_and_fiona: elderly period and there's no proof that it happened all right so it's six b c so this is like they're zaza: is that peta_and_fiona: about zaza: is that the bit about where collegualis growing up there with him peta_and_fiona: yeah yeah zaza: okay maybe maybe another peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: episode peta_and_fiona: it's going to zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: take some time zaza: so how does the whole exile of the julia then happen peta_and_fiona: yeah so tiberius and julia they marry in eleven by six b c tiberius has gone off on his self imposed exile a few years later in two b c yes augustus reaches what is thought to be the pinnacle zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: of his political career in hidsite and you know it was a pretty good year for him he gets nominated to have the honor rifictitle powder patria the father of the fatherland zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: this is also the time where he complete zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: his very special for him like oh look what i mane so he's his zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: whole building programs coming together zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: he's the father of the fatherland zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: and then he seems to have what i would call a brain zaza: i peta_and_fiona: snap because a technical techiinaustralia zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: that's a very technical term but zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: it's like he comes zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: into the realization that julia is living a much more debauched life than he had previously been willing to believe an hears this story or at least he tells this story through a qui store to the senate zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: that he has learned that julia has been engaging in horrific behavior zaza: thank peta_and_fiona: she has been in the forum zaza: m peta_and_fiona: with her friends late zaza: m peta_and_fiona: at night and there is no debauched thing that she will not do so she has gressed from adultery which is apparently everybody kind of knew about but this is the night where she also offers herself as a prostitute publicly publicly public adonai t the very spot where augustus was declared pater patria zaza: yeah yes peta_and_fiona: sulked meet wid uh zaza: i mean but this was just like a story right this wasn't really happening was it or peta_and_fiona: thank zaza: did she try to make a point peta_and_fiona: this is what we're not sure about because if it was to be a trial for adultery or for some other crime augustus would have to produce zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: what this is that doesn't happen what we get instead is an account that's given second hand it's filtered from augustus to somebody else to be conveyed to the senate everything that is described as a crime is described as happening late at night when reasonably zaza: i peta_and_fiona: there would be no witnesses there are a whole bunch of people implicated in it not julia and there are all people that augustus wants done away with so is this some kind of internal co from zaza: yea peta_and_fiona: augustus against his own daughter there are rumours that perhaps she zaza: no peta_and_fiona: is colliding with certain elite men within her orbit in order to bring zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: around political change and this is the moment where like enough is enough although she hasn't really sort of indicated that she's that way and clined up until now but maybe something has changed and everything since the marriage to tiberias seems to have escaladed tensions between julia and augustus but whatever it is people pay the price ole some people who are implicated commit suicide because that's usually considered the nobler roman way to go rather than wait for the crime itself to come out and then to be punished absolutely zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: julia waits and she is banished a one of the guys she was involved with is one of mark antony's sons not one of the one not one of the children that he had with augustus is sister another one us so i think there is full but of our goodness there yea so she seems to be she's arrested on account of treason with attempted parasite this idea that somehow she's looking to kill augusta which seems pretty bad zaza: whoa peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: a peta_and_fiona: augustus then moves to issue avoiding of the marriage zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: with tiberius in tiberius's absence he's still under the and tiberius is cheering tiberius well no tyberisnthats true actually he tiberius zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: goes to bat for julia at this point because i think this may be a zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: measure of his conservatism as zaza: i peta_and_fiona: a character because the right thing for a husband to do in this situation would be to defend his wife and he does that so he goes into bat for julia even he seems to ha zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: a interested in being married to him and has left for another island years ago to stay away from a he writes lots of letters to augustus being like zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: don't banish her with to figure this out augustus is like i've already avoided the wedding don't zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: worry about it and tiberias like this is not okay and augustus is like she's on a way to a different island is like what so it gets chaotic lis antonius this son of mark antony of fulvia who's implicated he commits suicide our closest source for that zaza: one peta_and_fiona: suggested it was suicide zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: later sources that he was killed and didn't commit suicide but need zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: to look at it was me zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: but i mean valasparterculus is pretty close to the events he was he was an i the ground during that period so i'm going to believe him i don't think he's got any reason to lie he's pretty protyberious though good zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: man and the thing zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: this is the moment where we also learn about the relationship between julia and her birth mother scribonia because when julia is exiled scabonia offers to voluntarily zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: travel with her and go into exile as well even though she doesn't have do and the conditions are she's not allowed to have wine and any male visitors have to be approved of by augustus in advance so he's really keeping zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: an eye on her which means it's also signing up for a pretty zaza: father of the year peta_and_fiona: sedate zaza: award peta_and_fiona: time zaza: goes to oh peta_and_fiona: man knows how to run a country zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: definitely knows zaza: so peta_and_fiona: how to run a family zaza: she's exiled to this tiny yeah yeah so she's exiled to this tiny island what i don't understand is why was she being exiled after kind of years and years of alleged of affairs peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: right why now peta_and_fiona: yeah and like zaza: is peta_and_fiona: that's zaza: it just because of the brain snap peta_and_fiona: ye zaza: that augustus had peta_and_fiona: could besometing to do with the fact that he'd just been given this very special title maybe that's what help to make his brain snap because he's like i've got all these zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: expectations on it this is zaza: h peta_and_fiona: i think zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: this is the actually we're getting to the crux of what is the eternal mystery of this situation for scholars even now is that he doesn't seem we don't have access to the and so what augustus really knew that prompted this moment because he'd been generally quite accepting of julia and her foibles and her sort of outlandish character her parting ways up until now and it's been going on for quite some time apparently and what is it that augustus learned that produced this particular result lots of men are implicated so there seems to be a sense in which maybe julia is collating that's the possibility that it was serious enough that there was conclusion going on or that zaza: i peta_and_fiona: this was a way of rounding up those people neatly utilizing what people already knew about julia's reputation and zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: scape goading her in order to get to all of them because she had those social connections with them after all she'd already given him what he wanted she'd already had the sons zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: marriage tiberius wasn't going anywhere so it's just peaceable at the at this point of time zaza: i'm peta_and_fiona: yea zaza: sorry but i'm liking this guy less and less i have to be honest peta_and_fiona: don't zaza: with you peta_and_fiona: apologize i hate augustus don't be like zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: gum zaza: um okay so poor julia is on this peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: tiny island right there's no internet there's no netflix and peta_and_fiona: there zaza: as peta_and_fiona: is zaza: we've peta_and_fiona: no zaza: just heard there's certainly peta_and_fiona: o zaza: no peta_and_fiona: men zaza: netflix and chill peta_and_fiona: o men zaza: like what is she doing every day there peta_and_fiona: look zaza: does peta_and_fiona: at zaza: she have peta_and_fiona: a zaza: hobbies what peta_and_fiona: ah zaza: can she do peta_and_fiona: so it's not it's not as zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: bad necessarily as it sounds although it's not not the most exciting island so pandetaria is off the coast of naples zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: these days so you could and visit it if you want to there's not much here but you know it's got nice views there's probably a small township she's allowed to interact with the local people he's allowed to sort of live her life she's not allowed to drink not allowed to have parties not allowed to have extra zaza: damn peta_and_fiona: extra male visitors but she does have her mom with her so i mean zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: i don't know maybe there is some rumor that she does have she did write zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: a memoir so this might have been he time that she got started she wrote she wrote zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: prayed loved her sale you know zaza: it peta_and_fiona: the sunsets aren't going to be bad zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: so i don't know she's there for a while so hopefully she zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: finds zaza: so peta_and_fiona: something zaza: it's not caprice peta_and_fiona: o zaza: but it's not that bad either peta_and_fiona: like you could be worse it's definitely going to get worse so it zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: could be worse zaza: so how does she i mean we're almost at the hour here i have to respect your time how does julia the elder meet her end or is there more peta_and_fiona: h zaza: to the story before that happens peta_and_fiona: not a lot more so a few things happen to c e she learns that her son lucius caesar dies obviously that's a sad moment for her the next year her place of exile gets changed so it seems like in that moment of grief augustus kind of recognizes that maybe she gets to come back to the mainland essentially she's still exiled she's still in a small town but she's no longer on an island so that's a win and scribonia continues zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: to go with er like i'm going to stick with this girl zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: so they're clearly friends zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: and the next year after that she learns that her other son guy sasa died is that's tragic and ten years later so we don't hear anything about it for ages ten years later augustus dies and this is the moment where tiberius does something terrible tiberius essentially becomes zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: emperor and decides to follow the letter of the law which means to say that up until now julia has been living off an allowance that's been granted to her by augustus and annual allowance so she's not wealthy but she's you know she's doing a are of her taking she can't party or whatever but she's allowed to you walk around town and you live a quiet life she gets her money taken away from zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: her and her movement is then limited only to the house that she lives in and she is not allowed to see anybody he basically confines her to the extent that she is no longer capable of having a social life she has no money to live on and she's completely imprisoned in her own home yeah does this mean that she dies we don't know does this mean that how she gets secretly zaza: m peta_and_fiona: bumped off we don't know zaza: m peta_and_fiona: it would it's weird we just we don't know we don't hear about it ever again after this zaza: so she just disappears from the records or how does it happen peta_and_fiona: i think the implication must be that she died around this time i think i think the implication is that zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: she's probably killed off somehow zaza: a peta_and_fiona: it would be very unlike that they would just cut zaza: by peta_and_fiona: her zaza: tiberius peta_and_fiona: off zaza: right peta_and_fiona: olivia zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: she seems to be completely cut off and zaza: livia still around peta_and_fiona: eaheahshe zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: well into tiberius's reign yea she's a was both zaza: okay peta_and_fiona: out zaza: i'm treating i claudius as a historical document peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: now this is fishy peta_and_fiona: both augustus and livia are like zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: freaks of nature or the world and they both live exceptionally long lives zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: so yeah we don't know how she ends but julia zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: julia diesyeah zaza: eh peta_and_fiona: and of course the weird thing is that zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: one of her daughters who we now know as julia the younger suffers a similar fate it's also shrouded in mystery we don't really know all the details but it's really weird that she also seems to down this the same path zaza: that's that's so freaky i mean peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: i know we don't have much more time left but yeah i found peta_and_fiona: i can give zaza: much peta_and_fiona: you the zaza: less peta_and_fiona: highlights zaza: in peta_and_fiona: if zaza: fat peta_and_fiona: you like zaza: available on julia the younger i peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: did have a laugh when reading that she was known for building a large pretentious take peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: country house which people scoughed at i just pictured like a russian oligarch billionaire manner you know all gold everything kind of a thing but yeah maybe maybe we can talk about her and caprice peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: if we do this again which peta_and_fiona: yet zaza: i really hope that we will peta_and_fiona: yeah there's not zaza: um peta_and_fiona: a lot out there on her zaza: m peta_and_fiona: all i can really zaza: no peta_and_fiona: add to that is that she also owned the smallest dwarf zaza: okay yeah sorry say that again peta_and_fiona: she apparently as well as having a very love house which augustus hated because he was out for this whole like let's be simple you know i want all my female relatives to zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: work the wall and i'm going to sleep on like a military camp bed and then she goes and builds this gigantic ackyhouse and he's like you didn't get the member but zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: apparently she also owned zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: the smallest dwarf uh uh zaza: i think i'm just going to be silent again i don't know peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: how to react to that peta_and_fiona: wise choice i'm using the language of the time i should zaza: all right peta_and_fiona: add not not my own language but yes zaza: thank you peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: important disclaimer peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: since the title of this podcast is zero trash i have to peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: ask you trashy question at the end peta_and_fiona: good for zaza: not peta_and_fiona: it zaza: necessarily this story but if you could be one of the famous romans who would you be and why peta_and_fiona: h h oh zaza: you can choose anyone at all peta_and_fiona: m zaza: man woman now peta_and_fiona: m oh that's such stuff zaza: like maximus commodus i know peta_and_fiona: i think i would have to choose to be spartacus's wife just because i'd like to know if i actually existed whether i'm just a rube you wake up in the ancient zaza: that's peta_and_fiona: world zaza: an awesome peta_and_fiona: and really zaza: answer peta_and_fiona: realize you don't exist zaza: uh peta_and_fiona: get tricky but zaza: h peta_and_fiona: i'd zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: like to know i'd like to know where i'm from what my name is all that kind of stuff zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: look i think this is a great question because zaza: great peta_and_fiona: i'm zaza: answer peta_and_fiona: like i think for me i would zaza: i peta_and_fiona: it would have to be a vestal virgin and i really don't even know i don't mind which one but hopefully the one have got buried alive hopefully not but kind zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: of just i'm kind of just interested getting a sense of zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: the real process and understanding exactly how that cult worked and operated from the inside so i have to come in as a zaza: ah peta_and_fiona: six year old and be like i'm here is you stoke the fire zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and learn all the rituals and it's like that will be fun and not have sex ever other ways i'll end up in a hole underground zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: it's real isn't it's risky zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: uh zaza: oh my gosh romans peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: had no chill sometimes peta_and_fiona: absolutely zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: no chill zaza: thank you so much this was such a delight of a conversation peta_and_fiona: thank zaza: we peta_and_fiona: you zaza: have i just want to talk about so many more things the vestal virgins capri caligula you know a bunch of stuff you mentioned it's just endless peta_and_fiona: we're on board zaza: and peta_and_fiona: were on board zaza: yeah thank you so much i really do hope we do this again where can people find your podcast it's everywhere like it's on spotify it's on apple podcasts peta_and_fiona: yeah zaza: you tube i saw you have a channel as well peta_and_fiona: yeah yeah if you search for the partial historians we come up all over the place wherever you listen to good podcasts zaza: i peta_and_fiona: wherever you go on the internet we'll be there somewhere zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: and if you enjoy roman scandal and you like this kind of stuff that we've been talking about today we actually do have a book coming out about the roman monarchy which is called rex the seven kings of rome and it is filled with men thinking they're having relationships with goddesses romans being generally awful to women zaza: yeah yeah peta_and_fiona: children murdering their parents zaza: oh peta_and_fiona: you know signs from the god why does that man have fire around whose head nobody knows but we're going to find can you get pregnant from a fire maybe maybe zaza: h peta_and_fiona: you zaza: yeah peta_and_fiona: can't is that a fantom zaza: i peta_and_fiona: pallas maybe it is maybe it is maybe it wasn't a dagger that was shake was writing a zaza: i'm peta_and_fiona: bet zaza: getting that book for for my mother's birthday present i've made up my mind peta_and_fiona: thank you so much for having us on the show thank you zaza: thank you thanks again this was awesome and yeah have a have a lovely peta_and_fiona: oh zaza: rest of the evening it's evening there already right peta_and_fiona: it is zaza: in australia peta_and_fiona: certainly is yeah zaza: all right by peta_and_fiona: bye bye zaza: yeah