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Why Lighting Careers Need a Formal Route - and Still Don’t Have One · Built by People

• speaker-0: Hello and welcome to Built by People, a DFL podcast that delivers some topical industry insight with a hint of fun, chatting about all things highway infrastructure in the built environment. I'm your host, Richard Jackson. Let's get straight into it. I am delighted today to have Rebecca Hatch of FM Conway on the podcast. Myself and Rebecca go back many years and I'm really excited to reminisce on some of the stories and find out about what Rebecca's doing within FM Conway. And the wider industry now. How did we first meet? speaker-1: Thanks Richard. ⁓ Well, we first met at Atkins. I can't remember the exact year, but I reckon it was probably 18 years ago. Atkins was my first ⁓ entry into the lighting industry. I joined them as a junior lighting technician at the time, ⁓ which was 2004. yeah, similar to you, I'm just about to hit 22 years in street lighting or in lighting. We don't say street lighting anymore, do we? So yeah, I was... a technician, learning the ropes, didn't know what lighting was before that. And you came into the team, I'd been there a few years. This is history. speaker-0: Think so, yeah. So interesting, I I've got to ask this question, 'cause as I say, we joined I joined Atkins and you do you were already there. How'd you get into street lighting? What was your route there? Is it what got you into Atkins? speaker-1: So I went to a careers open day at Atkins, which was only 10, 15 minutes from my parents' house. was still at home, was 16 years old. Because I thought I wanted to do law, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to go to uni. So went to go and see this careers open day because they were advertising. The time was for highway law, which now in hindsight you think, ⁓ my God, how boring could highway law have been? Went in and had a chat with a couple of people from HR and from the law team. And on my way out, literally on my way out, they grabbed me and said, do you mind having a chat with the lighting team? Because they're also thinking about taking on a technician. And of course I was like, I don't even know what you mean, but I was like, okay, yeah, let's have a chat. They then offered me that job. as this junior lighting technician, which I still had no idea what it was. The only thing I remember from the conversation with the lighting manager at the time was he drew me a diagram of luminance and illuminance. ⁓ I don't remember anything else that we talked about. I didn't get off of the law job and I thought it was because my English wasn't, my written English was never my strongest subject at school. Science, maths, ⁓ IT, business was always where I was stronger. Never got on with English literature. generally like I thought, I thought that's it. That's why they don't want me in the law team. But I thought, let's take the job. If it's no good, I'll go to uni next year. Like, let's just give it a go. Joined and turned out the reason, I mean, not maybe the only reason, but the reason they said they didn't give me the other role in the law team was because they were disbanding that team in that office. Still never found out if I would have got it if they hadn't been, but it didn't matter because by that point I was fully... indoctrinated into the lighting team. had a great team at Atkins, as you know. ⁓ really, really social team. And because they'd never taken on a junior in that team in Atkins, like it wasn't an official program, it wasn't an apprenticeship, which he weren't graduates because we weren't at uni. They didn't really know what to do with us at the time. So went on. Absolutely everything, like every course, went to college one day a week to do my electrical, electronic, HNC, went on every ILP or ILE at the time, industry, every manufacturer visit, just to learn everything you possibly could about lighting. So yeah, there's no reason to want to go elsewhere. speaker-0: That's amazing. I d yeah. When I look back on that now and you mentioned that, we were given such great opportunity in terms of seeing manufacturers going to events and stuff like that. Interestingly, I picked up on what you said there, there was no formal route. Do you think that's changed now? Like what how do you see it? And I'm I'm conscious, we'll move on to it in a minute when we talk about your current role. Obviously, you're more on the contracting side now. But What does you think that route looks like now for the next generation? How would you advise the next generation to get involved in say exterior lighting? No one leaves school and says, I'm going to become a lighting engineer, but anything like that. What advice and what would you say has changed to support going into industry like this? speaker-1: Yeah, it definitely has changed. I still think it could be more formalised. It's ⁓ still not something that I think anybody really knows about. And we've tried ⁓ over the years through various, whether it's ILP, HTA, other groups independently or as our organisations, we've tried to get that message out there. And ⁓ I was president of the ILP a few years ago and my sort of message there was to try and make light in a career. choice or even a career that people know about. And I think we've made great progress in promoting the opportunities that sit within the lighting industry because it isn't just one role. There's so many different paths people can take, but it's still not formalized because we still don't have a standard academic route laid out that suits everybody. So it's relied on the industry and yourselves with the LAMP Academy and others. to develop those programs themselves and all of the big ⁓ consultancies and ourselves, we have apprenticeship programs at Conway's, everyone has a version but there isn't one for lighting still and I think it's possible and there's lots of great work going on across the industry to try and do that. ⁓ So I think it's absolutely different now, you could talk to people and find a very clear apprenticeship or graduate route but not... still not reaching all of those potential budding engineers, budding lighters, ⁓ to I suppose highlight that this is a career where you can have that development and that choice. speaker-0: Yeah. And I guess it's for me, it's a collective platform where we all need to keep pushing it. I think we can learn from each other, can't we? But equally we all need a slightly different route. But I think as you said from the way we started, you just gotta get involved, haven't you? You gotta throw yourself into it, put yourself out there and just absorb any opportunity that's put in front of you. Moving on, obviously I was studying your C V last night on LinkedIn, as you do. ⁓ you went from a technical background ⁓ at Atkins where we were working together and I think you left Atkins as a senior engineer, I think, did you? Yes. And then went into a business development role? speaker-1: No, ⁓ when I left Atkins, went to WSP. another consultancy, ⁓ really on paper, very similar at the time in terms of team and structure and workflow. Reason I chose WSP as my next move was because I specifically wanted to work in London, Westminster specifically, and WSP were the consultant for the Westminster contract, which I actually still support now. ⁓ So I, yeah, it was, was a, a move within, still within that technical space, but it was around that time that maybe a year in, I started to really identify that a business route, a ⁓ commercial route probably at the time was where I wanted to take my career. And as you know, the engineering sort of path is quite linear, which is good. It's great when you're learning. And that does support what we just talking about with getting a more structured approach because If you're following an engineering path in lighting over a more design-based or project management or other roles, there is clear guidance through the engineering council that allows you to make those sort of strategic steps in your career if you want to, to go from an engineering technician to incorporated and onwards and go through those sort of roles, technician to assistant engineer, engineer onwards. But I was, yeah, was becoming more and more interested and enjoying the client facing side, was always part of your role, but a small part and getting more involved with the ⁓ business growth, business development, commercial elements of what we were doing in our contracts. speaker-0: And then yeah, so I think that was it, wasn't it? You went from WSP into F ⁓ Conway and then you're now back at F ⁓ Conway, aren't you? I noticed on your C V you went to WSP twice or is that through speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, this is my, yeah, sort of, I suppose, yeah, fifth sort of formal change in my 22 years. ⁓ But yeah, I've doubled back a couple of times ⁓ and all for good reason. And yeah, it won't go into every detail, but just because of the opportunity and the circumstances at the time. the ⁓ transition to Conways the first time was... We came to the end of the Westminster contract that was a joint venture at the time that WSP were part of and that contract was re-won by Conway with WSP as a service provider contract. So as part of that, we were brought together and I then crossed over to the Conway side when we launched that contract in 2014 to take on more of a business development role for the first time. ⁓ Because at the time then that didn't exist in the WSP team, that wasn't an option for me. And I didn't want to really leave lighting, I wanted to pursue that side and really sort of test is that what I want to do without leaving lighting. So, and that wasn't, there wasn't that current option at WSP at the time. speaker-0: Just picking up on that, that's really interesting. Obviously, we're an SME Lighting Design Consultancy and I saw that synergy as well in terms of I couldn't put one finger on who was the business development or marketing lead for lighting at Atkins. And I see that now when we're looking at consultancy, when we're ⁓ benchmarking our brand on what we're doing internally and stuff like that. It appears not just lighting, any sort of consultancy don't really see business development and marketing or as a as a business function, which amazes me. And I thought, and maybe that's just us, but you touched on there, you've seen it quite a lot in industry in terms of working with consultancy, that business development isn't seen as a function, would is that fair to say? speaker-1: Absolutely, I personally really struggled with it because I think I'm naturally suited to those ⁓ that I was naturally drawn, suppose, not even didn't know if I was suited to it. I was naturally drawn to that area, find it quite natural to have those conversations with clients, really enjoy that early stage of identifying the problems, the solutions, ⁓ dealing with the difficult situations. And you're right, and it just didn't exist. It was sort of seen as a It was either a big team doing big, huge multi-disc tenders who were obviously quite separate, rightly so, or it just didn't happen. And I felt like we were missing opportunities. And that really was a struggle for me. It was a frustration that I was thinking we could go and be doing more. We could be winning new work. We could do a better job than whoever. And that drove me to leave. it was quite early on in my life, was probably 10. 11 years into my career, but I knew there was more there to be done. ⁓ And so, yeah, went on that path. At the time, ⁓ there was lots of change at Conway's then, and it didn't pan out to be what I needed it to be then, ⁓ which led me to the next move. ⁓ But I think then the returns, if we go back to that, returns to WSP and the return to Conway now. They were both very similar in ⁓ situation in that the WSP team was ⁓ being restructured in the discipline that it sat in. So there was a new opportunity for a ⁓ director position to come and shape the future of that team, which I took, ⁓ went back to WSP and great, had a great five years of doing that. ⁓ When it reached almost the point that the same opportunity to come up in FM Conway, where after a long standing ⁓ director in place and very traditional street lighting focus, the opportunity came up to come in as a director and shape and grow and mould that team into something new. speaker-0: So again, on that question, we spoke about the business development element within consultancy. Now you're at FM Conway, a contractor. Do they business develop hard, shall we say? Like is is that a primary function? J is it a very different business setup or is that something you've had to grow in the role? speaker-1: So I think right from early on where I, know, I couldn't articulate probably what it was that we needed then, you 11 years ago, but I knew there was something missing. What I've realised, you when you look back and you think about how things have developed is that it's a fundamental part, I think, of the job. And not just being in a director position where you're responsible for a P&L and the growth, it's part of your job by default. I think it's part of your job as a, as an engineer, as a project manager, any person working for a business, it's part and parcel. And if you, not everybody can do that, not everybody is suited to that and that's okay. Not saying every engineer needs to suddenly have business development skills because we need people to engineer. We need everybody to do their part. But if you haven't got any of those elements in your team, that's when you struggle. And at Conways we do have, we have people that are in, ⁓ again, like a really strong bid team, really strong marketing teams. who do those central functions. But as the way we're structured is that each divisional director is absolutely takes ownership and responsibility for that and that direction that you take it in with obviously a bit of governance from our board. you know, it's on me to make those decisions, which I absolutely love. speaker-0: It strikes me it's really enjoyable to hear you talk because you sound like you've got a very entrepreneurial mindset. Does that ever is that ever something that you think about in terms of starting something afresh, growing something, or do you enjoy working in the more corporate environment structured, ready, ready-made, if you like, environment? speaker-1: Yeah, think I have some of those characteristics, but actually I prefer the intrapreneurial approach and I try to use that with team members that I'm developing and definitely something that I think if you speak to some of my previous WSP colleagues, they'll say I try to instill that you operate within a bigger organization, but you act as if it is your own. ⁓ I don't want... to have my own. I don't think I like being part of a bigger structure. enjoy that ⁓ challenge and the challenge and benefit of having those internal divisions. Now, sometimes as you know, in big organizations and Conway's we're not as big as the WSP, but we're getting there. ⁓ You have that internal relationships are often more difficult than the external. ⁓ But I still find that challenge ⁓ enjoyable most of the time. think that it comes with great benefit that you, once you've established those relationships, just like you do with an external client, a paying end user, then you've got a huge more opportunity. And it's a lot easier to support each other internally and to grow, especially our sector, lighting's always supporting, you know, we're often second or maybe even third in the chain to a highway lead, an architect. structural division, whoever we might be supporting to do our lighting and electrical works. We're not often first. So building those relationships within a bigger organization are just as important, if not more important. speaker-0: So just evolving on your role on FM Conway, it's quite funny. I was having a conversation with Ryan earlier and we feel like we're losing Rebecca a little bit from the lighting industry. I know we're not, but obviously you've got a much more encompassing role now in the ⁓ within FM Conway. Did you want us to give us an overview of that? speaker-1: Yeah, so my role now at FM Conway, or my title, is Director of Digital Urban Solutions. And when I joined, it's just a year, just over a year that I've been there. When I joined, the first thing we did was rename the division, which was the Lighting Division and internally known as Street Lighting. And I've said it a million times, and I'm sure you have, that we haven't been just lighting for a very long time in lots of areas of our industry. and there's nothing wrong, I'm not putting lighting down because it's still the core of my business and it is our industry, we are in the lighting industry. But especially since we've seen movement with digital technology, we've had central management systems controlling our lights for what, 15 years, LEDs have been rolled out. We've seen this advancement and this shift on what we expect a lighting engineer or a lighting contractor to handle. ⁓ And that is not just a light anymore, it's so much more. So we wanted to reflect that in the name of the division. ⁓ So whilst I am ⁓ absolutely still 100 % a lighter at heart, we have now just acknowledging, I guess, all those other areas that we work in. So ⁓ smart technology, whether that be installing 5G sensors, ⁓ central management systems, ⁓ or, you know, air quality sensors, whatever that might be, typically on our lighting asset, but on other highway electrical street furniture. We also do EV charging infrastructure. We've just actually made a shift away. We were a charge point operator, but we're now focusing on installation and maintenance for any charge point operator in the UK. And we also ⁓ look after asset management within my division. So I have an asset management team. predominantly a lot of GIS experts and analysts. So we offer everything from the early stage asset management strategy and advisory right the way through to ⁓ manual as well as digital surveys and inventory updates. speaker-0: Just on that, what's an i really interesting topic around that, the topic of AI, how are you seeing AI come into the contracting side of the business? I guess it's heavily linked to the survey and data side of it, but out on the tools, as we say, old school on the tools, how is AI like implemented within the business or how are you seeing it being used within the contracting side of things? speaker-1: It's starting to be used across everything that we do. ⁓ I think a lot of people think of AI as being the ChatGPT the Claudes the Copilots ⁓ is great. That is a ⁓ tool that we're all starting to use. But it's also can be as simple as, for example, we've just upgraded our Near Miss app, Near Miss reporting. So everybody's targeted to get as many Miss' ⁓ shared in the system as possible because that helps us to be safer in what doing. ⁓ a simple ⁓ bit of AI, I say simple, I didn't write it, but a simple bit of AI and code used to make our Near Miss app available in multiple different languages, because not all of our ⁓ English is their first language, which can then ⁓ simply translated back ⁓ as it goes into the system. So we're not then having ⁓ manually translate and also it makes life just a lot easier for operatives. And that is a ⁓ ⁓ But everything from the way ⁓ that we bid all the way through to the way that we manage safety on site, AI has a place. ⁓ But yeah, it's absolutely changing ⁓ the game in terms of survey data collection analysis as well. We would have had people, would have had the GIS team I mentioned would have been sat four days analyzing data manually sifting through or looking at. photos, drawings, street view images, you know, they would have been spending all of that time, whereas now a bit of machine learning and a bit of ⁓ intelligence built into what we're collating is making that job so much easier and they can then focus on those value add activities. speaker-0: Yeah. How'd you personally find AI? speaker-1: I love it. a personal note, ChatGBT has become too much of a friend. I probably trust it too much. And I naturally want to say him. ⁓ Really? Yeah, I know. That's bizarre, isn't it? I wonder where that's come from. I wanted to say him. ChatGBT. Trust him. ⁓ But from a business perspective, yeah, anything that can make ⁓ our jobs either more efficient, can make us our work safer. can allow our people to not be doing repetitive, unnecessary tasks so that they can really focus on where that human value is because I don't ever see a world where AI replaces what we do. mean, construction's a bit different. We've got robotic ⁓ excavators and I've seen a robot gully cleaner and things like that that are going to take away manual handling risk or they're going to, again, improve safety. ⁓ But also those people that sat in the office, our customer support teams, from everything, I think AI has a place to make what they do more valuable. They can spend more time, more face time with the customers and the end users and our London boroughs ⁓ and all of our other clients rather than spending that time doing admin-based activities. speaker-0: Yeah, I I personally totally agree with that. I think AI, initially everyone was like, ⁓ my world, it's gonna take over, we're gonna all lose our jobs, this that the other. But I I think there's a real strong shift where creativity and communication As much as AI can assist will never take over that element of it. And I think you it was great to hear you talking about it. It's something that we talk about in DFL is that yes, you are an engineer or you are a senior engineer or you're the office manager or you're the technician, but you are all the face of the business in some way or other. And that's not to say you're solely responsible to market business development and sell and stuff like that. But them small human interactions are really valuable in building. trust and brand presence and stuff like that. So yeah, I think the early wave of AI was like, ⁓ it's gonna take over the world. And I think we're starting to see it settle into a a handoff tool more than a replacement tool and stuff. speaker-1: Yeah, and it's in most cases, I'd say it's still pretty cost prohibitive. I went to ⁓ House of Lords to see a AI pothole filler, for example. And, know, fantastic, fantastic idea, fantastic concept. And actually the, you know, the black box that's doing all of the clever stuff, really fantastic and huge potential. But the actual pot hole filling isn't perfect yet, you it still can't do the job as well as a person, a trained operative can, but that will come over time and that requires humans to train the AI and I think that's the exciting part, like that's the next evolution for us as the engineers, as the subject matter experts, wherever it might be, it's for us to train the AI to do what we need it to do, but it doesn't replace the role, it enhances the role. speaker-0: Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I hope you're enjoying the show so far. Our goal with this is to build something for the whole industry to feel a part of. So please don't forget to like and subscribe and drop a comment with any thoughts or suggestions for future episodes. Moving on, obviously you're in quite a senior position at FM Conway. ⁓ our industry is historically male dominated. Do you mind us discussing how you find that? Do you notice is it obvious as a female in a p your position that you're either treated differently or anything like that or speaker-1: Yeah, mean, we are still living in a, living, working, operating in a heavily male dominated industry and sector and yeah, lighting, I think we've seen, we have seen a well I've seen a shift in the 22 years and I think that stems mainly from the fact that we have lots of different people coming into lighting from different backgrounds. So we also have a lot of designers, we have a lot of people come from architectural and theatre backgrounds. The more traditional engineering has been a slower. a slower shift, but we absolutely are seeing that. And especially in the younger generation, we're getting to a place where it's really positive that you're seeing a much stronger mix, not quite half, but in cases we are seeing that. Whereas when I was starting, I would be the only woman in the room most of the time, every course it was me and you'd be on a course of 25 people and I'd be the only female. And there are... There are things over those years I could, you know, I can think back to where, was I treated differently? Probably, I don't feel like it ever held me back or, but there's definitely, there's definitely that element of inclusivity and just, you know, having different people to talk to and having people who are going through similar things to you to be able to share that. But that's true of any difference. And I've been really lucky that The teams I've worked in have always been very supportive ⁓ and I've always had allies, male allies to call on ⁓ or to not feel like I was isolated or that I was the only woman, but it's definitely evident. And in construction, the percentage, the gender balance is even lower than it is in engineering. So for the industry, it's typically 13%. FM Conway, we're really proud that we're 17, 18%. ⁓ don't know the exact figure today and we have a really strong campaign called 30 by 30, which is to get our workforce to 30 % female by 2030. Which is a huge ambition and we've won multiple awards for it because it is really bold and it has the full support of our board. ⁓ But yeah, even now, know, at my grade there are only a couple of other women and I am still often, yeah, the only female in the room. and I think it's just now it's, it's about making people aware where there is maybe, anything that's not inclusive. Now, I don't think there's not many people in our, in our industry or sector who do anything with any sort of intent, but there's still phrases that are used that are sexist, misogynistic. And again, it's not often meant in that way, but I think because we've got a few more women around, and maybe it's just because I'm a bit. bit older, a bit more senior, I feel comfortable enough to call that out if it happens. And most of the time people are completely unaware that they've said something that maybe could be taken that way or is off putting. ⁓ And I think it's important that we do and that we do it in the right way. It's not about pointing fingers or shaming anybody. It's just having a quiet conversation to say, you could have said this way, or did you realize you said that to just try to move that along more. ⁓ But we've got some fantastic initiatives across the industry. We have the women lighting professionals ⁓ and we've got a lot more women involved on committees right the way from NextGen, at HEA and YLP and the ILP all the way through to the boards where we've got women representing. Still not enough if you ask me, but and I think that does start to move because it's great bringing in the younger generation of females, but if we're not... changing things at the top and we've not got women in senior positions, unfortunately we're probably making the problem worse because we're bringing all of these women into the industry but then the policies, the processes, the working arrangements, the language that's used isn't changing because it's not happening at the top. speaker-0: And just picking up where you said enough people coming through, I I really struggle with that personally from a business perspective. What what would you say enough is? And what I mean by that is, you know, as a nation's fifty-fifty, let's say, you know, men and women, like I would love to just let it naturally be fifty-fifty employment, but it just doesn't exist. What would you can you put a figure on enough? What are your thoughts on enough? I mean, you know, and I'm I'm really pleased, you know. We recruited recently and we recruited a female candidate and we're seeing that more female candidates are coming through and that's really great to see as you say. But I I'll be honest with you, one of the things I really struggle with is trying not to go, well, male or female, because then I am I'm naturally making a biased opinion because I'm thinking about that. But it's it's really tricky. It is a tough one. speaker-1: and it shouldn't. It shouldn't be. mean, having we all know that having a blended mix of people, whether it's male, female, other backgrounds, diversity is important regardless. And we're talking about, you know, women in engineering here because we are it is still a minority. But that doesn't mean there aren't other minorities that also aren't being, you know, aren't being reflected in what we're doing and the changes that we're making in the industry. I think my for me, I completely agree with you. It shouldn't matter. shouldn't be like, there shouldn't be, we shouldn't have to put targets, I think, but if you don't put a target, then it's much easier to let things just to slip and to not see that progress. ⁓ But as I said, I think my concern is that we're bringing, we seem to be bringing in a lot more women in those early career stages, which is fantastic, but it means there's still that big gap that actually you can't just suddenly recruit women into top positions where you have got, you know, levers for change. because there's going to be a while before those new graduates, apprentices, technicians, whatever roles those might be, operatives, it's going to be a while before they get to that position to be able to apply for those roles. We haven't got those roles in middle management that are then going to be available in that resource pool to recruit from into those senior positions where I really think the change happens. speaker-0: think yeah it's it's a real balancing act, isn't it? Because you you wanna promote within and that will take time, but equally you you can't just wait for that. It is finding that real balancing act. It is a tricky one and I think w and I when I look back on it, I was just reflecting on it then I think I've been particularly sheltered w from it growing up ⁓ for twenty two years as we said in this industry We've been quite close to each other in although our careers have gone in different directions. We've always met at events and had conversations. And I think that's really allow well, probably naively I've felt not really seen not seen an issue. I have seen the issue, but knowing that we had them interactions, I guess I didn't see it as much of a stark issue. But there are definitely male dominated environments, isn't there? And is it you know, it's a tricky one to discuss because obviously, you know We've had events like the London Calling event. We've got the ILP events coming up. And I sit in the middle now because I don't really drink anymore. But back in the day there were big drinking events and stuff like that. And that culture's changing as well. It's really I'm quietly excited to see the direction of the, if you can call it entertainment of these events goes, because it's not the sit-down drinks and dinner that people want now. They want that networking. They want Dare I say adventure or new challenge. And I'm not saying we're going go and do something crazy in the evening after an event and stuff like that. But it'll be really interesting, I think, to see how that changes. Cause I can't keep up with the next gen stuff. Like they, they, they're so bright when it comes to AI, technology, and stuff like that. But I think where we're seeing such a diverse range coming through in the next generation, I think it's really exciting to see the direction the industry goes. Because when you couple them people. With the technologies that we're talking about and how it's not just street lighting anymore, I'd like to think selfishly, there's a resurgence in the highway electrical sector where it's gonna aff offer real value in the industry going forward in the next few years. So let's round off. I've got two quick fire questions I wanted to ask you. The first one is, what is your favourite project that you've ever worked on? Either be it all the way from the beginning at Atkins right through to now, what's been your favourite project and why? speaker-1: Oh, well, anyone who knows me is know what I'm going to say. It was looking after the historic gas lighting for Westminster, which started in 2012. did. Well, I thought it was a joke when they asked me to do that project because LEDs had just come on the market around 2010, hadn't they? So we were all getting used to designing with this new fancy modern technology. And then my manager at the time said, we want you to look after the gas lighting. And I thought it was a joke, but I absolutely loved it. And say, proud that we still maintain those. And for anyone that doesn't know, there are 304 gas lights still in operation in Westminster. speaker-0: Am I right in saying that you do walking tours of that as well through the Is it through the ILP? speaker-1: We used to do them regularly. We started that as WSP. did them for ILP, HEA. speaker-0: Yeah. Well you heard it here. If we can get enough people wanted then I'm sure Rebecca will get back out and show you the gaslighting track. speaker-1: And there are others in the city and others that are around other parts of the UK, the main bulk of them. So that one still wins. speaker-0: The one that has your heart is Westminster. And the final question for the day, what is Rebecca doing at the weekend after a hard week at work? speaker-1: ⁓ well it's bank holiday coming up. I'm not sure when this is going live, but this weekend is bank holiday. Doesn't look like the weather's going to be great, but ⁓ I will be walking my bulldog Reggie. We're doing a step challenge at the moment at Conways and I am way behind during the week, so I have to catch up. So I need to do about 30,000 steps over the weekend. speaker-0: Amazing. Thank you very much to Rebecca. I hope you enjoy the podcast and we hope to see you again soon. Thanks for listening. As we've mentioned, we're keen for this to become a podcast for the whole industry. So please, feedback is welcome. Also, don't forget to like and subscribe if you want to hear more.