Latest / Motherhood Uncut / A Mom Like That with Aaisha Alvi | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 6 Episode 9

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A Mom Like That with Aaisha Alvi | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 6 Episode 9 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Kate Kripke and welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: This podcast brings the reality of motherhood to the table for real, honest conversations.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Here we laugh, we cry, we learn, we grow, we are awestruck, amazed, humbled, and validated.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: But most importantly, together we begin to live in a new way that allows us to recognize the immense role that our own health and well-being plays in the health and well-being of our kids.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Together we recognize that everything we do to take care of our physical, psychological, social, and spiritual health is in service of our children.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: This season, we're diving deep into the role that the shoulds and shouldn'ts and rules and expectations play in our motherhood journey.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Together, this season, we will learn to break those boundaries that hold us back from our greatest potential.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be hearing from the moms who have taken this risk, from experts who help in this journey, and from family members who, Lord help me, have important insight to share.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: So pull up a chair, my friend, make a cup of tea, pour a glass of wine, put on your walking shoes, turn up the volume in your car.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Let's do this together because nobody should mother alone.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Aisha is an incredibly brave and inspiring woman who has moved past all of the shoulds and shouldn'ts to go public about her experience with postpartum psychosis.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Aisha's story is one that shows us what it looks like to love your child deeply.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: She is, in fact, a mom like that.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Aisha, welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm so grateful to be given the opportunity to be on this show with you.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, I um you and I have been planning this conversation for a long time, months, in fact, as your book was um being published and coming out to the wider world.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: And we are gonna talk about the themes of your book and your book and you and many things maternal mental health related here.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, I've been looking forward to this conversation because I do think this is one of the topics and conversations that quote unquote, we don't want to talk about.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Many moms don't want to talk about.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: And this is where we talk about that stuff.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's so it's perfect.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Great.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Um I want to ask you just this random question.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, people have heard your more formal bio, but really what I want to start with is what do you, Aisha, want our listeners to know about you, Aisha, the human.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: So even before we kind of dive into your story, what is important to know about you?
3:02
SPEAKER_02: I think um what's important to know about me is I'm just a typical mom.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Just somebody that always wanted to be a mom.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I love kids.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it was something that I always saw in my future.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm just a normal mom that likes to, you know, go out with friends, watch movies, maybe watch a little bit too much movies, um, read books, and you know, go for walks.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: Just like the average person, I think.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: I love that that's how you started because when when Deb, Ruben, and I started this podcast, this is our sixth season.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: What we wanted to be doing here was to make sure that no one felt alone and that no one felt that like they were mothering alone, because God knows we cannot mother alone.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: And there's this question we have so much of the time, is like, am I normal?
3:58
SPEAKER_00: And what does normal even mean?
4:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: But I I'm really hoping that by the end of this conversation, like all of our other conversations, that our listeners really understand how that we're all more similar than them than different.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: And even if the sort of what on paper our life looks like, like the specific details of our lives are different, that we actually can relate to how things feel.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: We just all have that in common as humans, you know?
4:31
SPEAKER_00: More similarities than differences, definitely.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: So really what I'm wanting to sort of dive into here is of course, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna ask that you begin by sort of giving us a little bit of a summary of your quote unquote story.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: You just came out with this incredible book.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, the book, by the for our listeners, which we already said in the intro, is A Mom Like That.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: Again, I love that, by the way, as a as a header.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, your your book is a the story of your experience with postpartum psychosis, but I love the header of that book because I mean, and we're gonna dive into this, but dang, that's a separating statement, right?
5:20
SPEAKER_00: If there's so much charge to that statement.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: And and and really, we're gonna dive into sort of who you are as a human and what your experiences are.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: I hope everyone reads the book.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Not everyone will read the book because that's just how it works in a podcast like this, in an episode like this.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: But can you start to just catch everybody up and just give us a little bit of a brief synopsis of your story and why you wrote this book?
5:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: So um, so basically in the early 2000s, um, I got pregnant, like I always wanted to, and I gave birth to my daughter.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: And pretty soon after that, I started feeling like super depressed and anxious.
6:00
SPEAKER_02: And then pretty soon after that, I started believing really like, you know, strange things.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: Um I didn't realize at the time that they were strange, but in hindsight, after I got better, I realized that there were very bizarre things.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: Like some of these um strange beliefs that I had was that my family was gonna harm my daughter.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, I started to think at one point that maybe my baby wasn't really a baby, it was like an adult, grown adult pretending to be a baby.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: And then I started to think that my husband had some sinister motives towards my daughter.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: And even though my family took me to the doctor a couple of times, I was never diagnosed that time and spontaneously just recovered.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Then a couple of years later, um, after a pregnancy, I had a miscarriage and I started developing similar symptoms.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: But this time I recognized that the way I was feeling was similar to what had happened with my first pregnancy.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: And so I desperately tried to reach out for help because I was like, something's wrong, you know, like this reminds me of something that happened before.
7:00
SPEAKER_02: And I went to like five different doctors, like therapists, doctors, psychologists, and stuff.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: And each time I was dismissed.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, and because I I didn't get help help for for a long time, I became really ill.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: I developed very severe hallucinations, like um dangerous um hallucinations.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: I I I also developed even worse delusions, like thoughts like that.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Maybe, you know, my daughter needed to die, and that way, you know, like she could go to heaven, like very, very severe delusions and hallucinations.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it took me a very long time, like approximately like two months from the moment that I started experiencing these symptoms to the time I was finally referred to a perinatal psychiatrist and diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: And then in retrospect, she said, you know, years ago when you gave birth to your daughter, you also had postpartum psychosis.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: And um, she helped me to get better.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: And just the whole fact that, you know, like it took so long, like, even though I went to these healthcare providers, I was basically telling them, you know, at different points I'm having bizarre thoughts, I'm hearing voices, you know, I'm feeling like like like I'm being told to harm people and stuff like that.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: And still, and even though I even begged to be hospitalized, um, they just kept sending me home.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: And and and that like made me realize like this is how this condition kills people and results in tragedy.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: Like, and I need to get put this down in a book or some way so that I could spread awareness because really nobody needs to to to end up dead because of this illness.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: Just absolutely no reason for it.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: There's so much here, and it's just reminding me about how we I talk a lot about this a lot in my work, but uh how we all just need to feel seen, heard, and understood, right?
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Like full stop for us to actually exist on our own two feet, where we can evolve into being someone who trusts themselves and the choices that they're making.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: We need to know that people are seeing us and hearing us and understanding us.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: They don't need to agree with us, right?
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's another, but really see, hear, and understand.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds to me like you knew perhaps even in the beginning after the birth of your daughter, that something was up.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: But you were not being seen, heard, and understood.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: You were being totally dismissed, which means you were in it all alone.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: And that was the most horrifying aspect, like even worse than the symptoms.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: It was just the fact that I couldn't get help.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: That that was even worse than the symptoms themselves were very traumatizing.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: But like imagine knowing that that like you're afraid of yourself, you're afraid of what's happening to you, and nobody's listening to you, and nobody wants to help you.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: That was just like the double-edged sword.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: So let's just start with the obvious here, because I I think we can't even we can't really move on until we really acknowledge the fact that you were reaching out for support and no one was helping you.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, there are undeniable barriers for women of color seeking sound, effective, timely support, you know, in in many places, certainly the medical field.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit in retrospect about what you think was happening, like with respect to that barrier or other barriers?
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you what's your interpretation of why people weren't hearing you?
10:39
SPEAKER_00: What was happening there?
10:41
SPEAKER_02: I think it was twofold.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: I think it was um one aspect of it was just the fact that we're always trying to downplay this condition.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: We're always obsessed with communicating the fact that it's rare.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: We're like it's one to two in a thousand, and oh, it's it's so rare.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: But you know what?
10:57
SPEAKER_02: Do you think Down syndrome, do you think cerebral policy is rare?
11:01
SPEAKER_02: It happens at the same rate as those conditions.
11:04
SPEAKER_02: So we're just so obsessed with wanting to um, you know, like, like not frighten people.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: We're like, oh, don't talk about this.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: It's so rare.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's gonna frighten women as though we kind of had this idea that, like, oh, you can be frightened into developing postpartum psychosis.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: You can't, it's a medical condition.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: You can't be frightened into developing a heart attack, you can't be frightened into having a child with Down syndrome, and you can't be frightened into developing postpartum psychosis.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: So I think that was one of the issues that um like we we we so effectively communicate the fact that this is rare that even healthcare providers don't think that they need to know about it because you know they're not gonna come across this ever in their life.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: So why even like why even anticipate it type of thing?
11:48
SPEAKER_02: So I think that that was one aspect of the problem that I was facing.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Because, like to me, uh when I when I later saw my psychiatrist and she's like, Wait, you're telling them you're hearing voices, you're like, What is going on with these doctors?
12:02
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: And so it's just like I don't think that they ever anticipated seeing somebody with postpartum psychosis.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, because you know, they're always taught in medical school and stuff that it's so rare.
12:13
SPEAKER_02: So that was one aspect of it.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: And then the second aspect, which I kind of learned about later, was um after I started, uh, like I initially wrote my book, the first draft of my book, in 2007, because I couldn't, I could, I couldn't find anything on the issue of postpartum psychosis by somebody that had experienced it.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: And when I went into my doctor and I was like, How come there's no books out there on this topic?
12:35
SPEAKER_02: And she was like, Maybe you should write one.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: So then I started writing everything that had happened down.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: And then it obviously from 2007 till now, it's a very long time.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: But in between, I kind of put aside that draft, and then I started reading more about post-partum um psychosis, like research and stuff like that.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: And then more people's accounts started coming out.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's when I noticed that all the accounts that I came across, all of those people got help like this.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Like they were so quick to get help.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wait a second, why did it take me so long?
13:11
SPEAKER_02: Even though I was saying like even more alarming things than some of those people were saying.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: And I was literally saying very shocking things to the doctors about what was happening to me.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: And so then I started doing like some peripheral research, and I came across like information about how women of color are treated and stuff like that.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: And and I came across information like, you know, they don't get um, they're not screened at rates like um uh non-racialized women and and all this kind of stuff.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wait, this is my story.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: And the story of so many people of color.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Because um, like if you like in a mom like that, I talk about it.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, I went to five different doctors, and the only doctor that that even thought to screen me was a resident.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: And because we know like residents and stuff are gonna do everything, like just as it says in the book, but it's like shocking.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: Like somebody's coming to you and literally telling you stuff, and you don't even have the ability to pull out like a screening tool.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: Like that was like alarming.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, this is something that that we consistently see happening to um, you know, um women of color.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think it has to do with there's a lot of implicit biases in place when it comes to to people of color.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's been um studied, and they say that, you know, like these implicit biases that are all around us in society, they even permeate that uh the uh the field of health care, right?
14:37
SPEAKER_02: And these biases influence influence the way we look at a patient, the way we, you know, process information coming from a patient and all this kind of stuff.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Like there are like, you know, um studies that show that, you know, black women are often or black patients are often perceived to be, you know, uh belligerent or difficult.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, South Asian women are perceived to be like uh exaggerating and hyper-exaggerate their symptoms and and stuff like that.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: So I think all of these kinds of things play into it as well.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: So it was like two levels like there was that ignorance uh about the condition of postpartum psychosis itself, and then at a second level, there was this uh these implicit biases that come into play.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: Because at one point after I got better, I asked my psychiatrist, like, why do you think that that none of the doctors helped me?
15:28
SPEAKER_02: And she said something really bizarre.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: And she said to me, Maybe they thought you were malingering.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: And I said, But why would I be malingering?
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not like I had killed somebody, or it's like not like you know, like it was so bizarre to think.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, you know, maybe she's right, but why would they even why would that be the first thing that they thought of?
15:48
SPEAKER_02: Like this woman is malingering, like exaggerating, or like what benefit did I get out of wanting to be hospitalized?
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Wanting to be seen as something that you weren't, yeah.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so yeah, so I think that that's that's what it is.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: A lot of um, you know, the biases that creep into um the healthcare system just because it's out there.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what I'm thinking of right now is how deep it is ingrained in us to turn away from discomfort.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: That's another thing, yeah.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Being faced with something that externally, a person, a statement, right?
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Something outside of us that brings up a deep feeling of discomfort inside of our bodies.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: How programmed we are to turn away from that, to fix that, to do something to move away from that feeling versus leaning into that and getting curious about it, right?
16:49
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: And like I think that you're you're you've hit the nail on the head in in that respect because it's like it's like I think that a lot of these healthcare providers, a lot of them I knew.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: I they knew me for like years.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: And and it might have must have been very uncomfortable for them to be like, could this woman have this condition that like, you know, um, could this woman have this condition, like somebody that seems so normal, is educated, all this kind of thing, seems a lot like me.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of frightening to think that somebody could develop such a severe illness, you know.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: So you you kind of want to lean away from that because kind of like if she can have it, maybe anybody can have it type of thing, you know?
17:30
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean, a big part of what I have grown to learn and believe, right?
17:37
SPEAKER_00: If you if you kind of move outside of the more organic, you know, pieces and causes and parts in developing a mental health challenge, right?
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Whatever that thing is, any diagnosis, any disorder, aside from the organic causes.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: I've really grown to believe that most of what creates dissonance inside of our body, that deep discomfort that can lead to all kinds of things if we don't know how to sit with that, is uncertainty and unpredictability.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what to do in those moments.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: And we fight flight or freeze in those moments.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm reminded of two things.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Number one, there's a physician who you're telling these things to, and that physician may not know what to do if, in fact, this person has suffering from postpartum psychosis, right?
18:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: That feeling of uncertainty is so uncomfortable for me that I'm just gonna ignore what's happening, right?
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Rather than say, whoa, something's happening and I don't know what to do right now.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: So let me pause for a moment so I can figure out what the next thing to do is, right?
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: And the unpredictability of an illness like postpartum psychosis.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we get scared because we don't know what's next.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: And I just think this is again, we see this in motherhood, even if we're not suffering from a mental health challenge disorder, right?
19:09
SPEAKER_00: If we're just going down the road of having a baby who's crying or that's not sleeping, like all those kind of more, you know, those those more kind of typical challenges that we have in new motherhood that are all also all around unpredictability and uncertainty.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Hey, quick little break here.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: If you like the things that you hear here on this podcast, I want to invite you to come find me over on Instagram at Kate Kripke, K-A-T-E-K-R-I-P-K-E.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Really committed to providing free support to moms everywhere.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: And the two places that I do that are here and over there.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: So if you're not following me yet over there, come on over and take a moment and DM me and send me a message.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Introduce yourself.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: I love nothing more than connecting with people over in that community.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: So I hope to see you there.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Where did the reality of uncertainty and unpredictability show up for you in this really hard, scary experience that you went through?
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Is that a clear enough question for you to know where to go with that?
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't, it doesn't sound very clear when I ask it, but run with that.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: Can you just give me a little bit more pointer and pointers in terms of um in terms of how you want me to understand that question?
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: So in your first experience, when you started having these delusions, right?
20:39
SPEAKER_00: This paranoia, how I'm assuming they scared you on some level.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Um well, they scared me because I thought they were real, and um, I was like, you know, like gosh, what am I supposed to do?
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is not what I expected.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: So the predictability thing, it was like, this is not what I expected of motherhood.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: I didn't think that I would have to keep my child safe from my own family, and you know, like, wow, this is not what I signed up for, you know, in that kind of sense.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm imagining that also at that point there must have been, or I guess I'm just assuming that there was some level of what do I do with this thought I'm having.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: Um go ahead.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, in the first case, I didn't, because I just kind of believed those delusions and I was just more like, how do I, how do I keep safe?
21:37
SPEAKER_02: But in the second instance, for sure, I did.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: I was like, um, you know, there was uh there was one point where like like in my mind I was having these bizarre thoughts that you know maybe my daughter needed to be dead.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Um then that way she could go straight to heaven.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: And I was kind of like, I I don't agree with that.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: What am I supposed to do with that?
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Like what what where Is this coming from?
22:01
SPEAKER_02: What do I do with it?
22:02
SPEAKER_02: I don't agree with it.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: How do I stop it?
22:04
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
22:05
SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the times that I I went in to try to get that help to figure it out.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: And that's so interesting.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like the first experience in your first experience, you and your thoughts were were pretty interconnected.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: It almost sounds like you weren't even aware that they were thoughts that you were having.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And the second time you could identify them as thoughts that you didn't agree with.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
22:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can answer this question, Aisha, but what do you think enabled you to see yourself as separate from these thoughts the second time around?
22:53
SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting question.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: So I think I think it was um it was the fact that the first time the delusions that I was having were like, oh, this person's gonna harm my child, that person's gonna harm my child.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: So I I believed, like, you know, oh, these other people are gonna harm my child.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: So it was easier for me to believe.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: But in the second case, it was more like like I was gonna be the actor, and it and that I knew did not agree with who I was as a person at all.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: Like I knew that part of me.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
23:30
SPEAKER_00: It makes so much sense.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's that part of you that you trusted that got you to the doctor.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So when you well, first of all, what do are you?
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Did you have a partner at the time, a spouse?
23:48
SPEAKER_00: A partner?
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: And and did your partner know that this was happening for you?
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, well, it's not like I I didn't um some of my delusions I did share with my partner.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: At like one point, I thought my daughter was autistic, and I told him that, and and and he had insight into that delusion.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: But uh the other stuff I did not tell him because I didn't want to tell him that, you know, you are gonna do this to my daughter or my mother's gonna do this, but they could tell something was wrong with me because of the way I was behaving in response to those delusions.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, I didn't want my mom to have my daughter, I was not comfortable with you know, uh people being with my daughter.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: So, because when you believe a certain thing, you act in accordance with your beliefs.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: So they saw me acting in accordance with my beliefs, even though they didn't know what my beliefs were.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: And they were just like, you are bizarre, like behaving bizarrely.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
24:46
SPEAKER_00: I do.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: I do.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: In in the work I do, I work on this sort of model of psychology.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: And the model of psychology is that our beliefs about ourselves, our deep beliefs about ourselves, lead to the kind of thoughts we have.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Those thoughts lead to the way we feel emotionally, those emotions motivate behavior, and that behavior leads to the results.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: And you're you encapsulate that so well.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: And you're really talking about, it's funny, if we just focus on the behavior, we don't actually get to the crux of what's happening a lot of the time, right?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: So that people could look, these folks were your people who loved you were looking at your behavior and saying, wait, that behavior is bizarre.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: And someone might say, you need to change that behavior.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: You need to stop doing that thing.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: But of course, we can't stop doing that thing or change that behavior if we don't go back and look at the belief.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious if you could talk to us a little bit about this so that our listeners can really understand what was happening for you.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: What were your loved ones noticing that you were doing that seemed bizarre to them or quote unquote unlike you?
26:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so in my first experience with postpartum psychosis, um, I was like, I was I'm very close to my parents and stuff like that.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: And I love my family.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: But I wasn't like, I wasn't like sharing my daughter with anybody because I thought that they were at risk of harming her.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: So I was like keeping her away from them, not wanting them to spend any time alone with her.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: And they were just like, this is so bizarre.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: This is so unlike you, you know?
26:33
SPEAKER_02: And then I also, um, you know, I also had intrusive thoughts in my mind, which are not a symptom of postpartum psychosis, but which can occur in postpartum psychosis.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, and um, and those because of those intrusive thoughts, I was like, uh, at the same time, I was like, oh, okay, you know what?
26:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be so close to my daughter in case I unwittingly act on those thoughts.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: So then I wasn't hugging her, or and I'm a very huggy touchy-feely type of person.
27:00
SPEAKER_02: So then they were like, that's super bizarre.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: And then I guess the highlight of it was when my family kind of confronted me about all my bizarre behaviors.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was like so confused because I was like, I you guys are the bad people, it's not me that's bad.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: And then I took off and ran away because I was so confused by them confronting me.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: So all of that was like all of their seeing is a bizarre behavior.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: But I was believing my my behavior would not have been perceived as bizarre if they knew what was going on in my head, they would have fully understood why I was doing all the things that I was doing.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: It would make total sense as to, and you would like agree with, like, yeah, that's how I would like at one point I thought that my husband was gonna do something awful to my daughter.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: And at that time, I I like attacked him.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: But if you thought like your partner was gonna do something awful to your child, I think pretty much a lot of moms would stand up for their child.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
28:02
SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So when you were not sharing your daughter with people who we obviously would want your daughter to have relationships with, right?
28:16
SPEAKER_00: When you were not uh loving on your daughter in physical ways, when you weren't showing her physical attention, and when you were sort of disconnecting or not believing what these family members who you love and trust were saying to you, how did they respond?
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, I guess they were they got really confused because they knew even that first time my husband and my mom, they they they took me to doctors.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And were like, you know, at that time it they were like, I wasn't I wasn't reporting like, you know, I'm hearing things or anything like that.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: But my family was clearly saying, like, she's not herself.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: Like, do you know what I mean?
29:02
SPEAKER_02: But the doctors were like, you know, motherhood's hard.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: And so then it was like really perplexing to my family because it was like, well, the doctors don't think anything is wrong, and we think there's something wrong.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: So it was just like very confusing to them.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: And it was just like so fortunate that after a few months after um, you know, I spontaneously recovered because it wasn't like any healthcare provider was helping me.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wow.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like they were just focusing on the behavior, right?
29:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, that like, you know, it's hard.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Many moms don't want to have other people take care of their babies, or it's hard, right?
29:43
SPEAKER_00: Many moms feel tentative around their children, their young children.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: So that the the focus was on the behavior and trying to quote unquote normalize the behavior without looking at what was causing the behavior, which were those beliefs and the thoughts that you were having.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: And especially because the doctors weren't pointing out that anything was really wrong, then they they kind of moved to that thing of like, yeah, this it's just a behavior problem.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, you're not acting like they even said that you're not acting like a mother.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, do you know what I mean?
30:16
SPEAKER_02: And then um, I think that there were also like questions about whether or not, like, you know, I was being a hypochondriac in terms of like, you know, just like not not hypochondriac in that, not in that first time, but in the second time, they were like when I kept getting dismissed, they started wondering if I was being a hypochondriac, you know?
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, it must have been so incredibly confusing and frustrating for you.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm reminded, this is actually bringing up real something really important for us to be talking about here because I think one of the things that can happen when new when moms with new babies, that's sort of those early stage of motherhood, are struggling emotionally or psychologically in some way, right?
31:05
SPEAKER_00: And and you're you're reporting actually a something that a lot of moms struggle with, which is sharing their babies, right?
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Even if they don't aren't suffering from postpartum psychosis, that's sort of like um, it needs to be me that's taking care of my baby all the time, right?
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Or I I, you know, I'm fearful of a new babysitter, or sort of these anxieties that we can have, right?
31:28
SPEAKER_00: And many people will say, well, you just need to get help.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: You just need to let more people take care of your baby so you can take breaks.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Just need to X, Y, or Z.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to remember, and I guess I'm referring back to what I just said, we just need to remember that behavior is always a reflection of emotion and feeling.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: And emotion and feeling is always gonna come from some unconscious or conscious thought or belief that we have.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's so important for us to be asking those questions.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: What are you telling yourself about what might happen if you let someone take care of your baby?
32:13
SPEAKER_00: What are you telling yourself what might happen if you get too close to your child?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if someone sounds like if someone had asked you those questions, you would have answered honestly.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
32:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like and that's the thing, like just like don't assume, don't like assume to know what's going on.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Just, you know, like push and ask those questions and just say, like, you know, I I can see, like maybe just like speaking in terms of like this is what I see.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: And I was just wondering, is there any kind of reason for that?
32:45
SPEAKER_02: Are you are you are you afraid of something?
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Are you and I I'm I I think you're right, Kate.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: I think I would have, you know, maybe I wouldn't have told my mom what I thought about her, but I would have told my husband, like, this is this is my fear, and maybe I would have told my mom about my fear about my husband.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, do you know what I mean?
33:03
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: Nobody bothered to ask, nobody, everybody was just labeling the behavior.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: This is weird, this is strange.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: And it's true, it was weird and strange, but there was a reason for it.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: Come from nowhere.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: So let's go there for a moment.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: You just said kind of the key things.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: I think so much about your book and so much about you know this podcast interview and other places that you're speaking about these things, is to really understand that a mom like that is not that different than me.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Right?
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes, meaning you just nailed it.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: I think if any of us had the beliefs that you had back then, we would have been moving in the same direction you were moving in, right?
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: And and so it's not you, Aisha, it's the beliefs, right?
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Aisha isn't the problem or broken, the beliefs are problematic.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering, I I again, I don't know where you're gonna take this, but I I want us to understand that in motherhood we are all the same.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And our brains may work differently, and we may have different beliefs that are limiting or problematic.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: But we all know what it's like to have a belief that is not true.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: It is not fact, even though we may feel like it's true, but a belief about ourselves or what's happening that's not fact that leads us to act in ways that we wish we weren't acting in, right?
35:05
SPEAKER_00: And of course, the the kind of climax of that is someone who has postpartum psychosis and acts in dangerous ways.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: But what was helpful for you?
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Talk to us about your recovery for a moment.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: What was helpful for you in learning to identify and change and move away from those beliefs that was kind of motivating all of the thoughts and feelings and behaviors.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: How what helped you change those?
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, like the thing that that immediately helped me was um being put on the proper dose of antipsychotic medication.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: And then I got on the proper dose, it was like all of those, like in a mom like that, I talk about how I would call the magic pills.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Because I would think something, and then I would take like antipsychotic um medication that was prescribed for me.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: And it was almost like like like fog would just start dissipating.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Like I could literally see like fog dissipating, and I'd be like, wait, why was I thinking that?
36:14
SPEAKER_02: Like that belief just the certainty of that of that fixed belief just cracked.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: And when that belief cracked, then it was easy for my behavior to change because it was that belief that was controlling what how I behaved.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: It was in completely influencing the way I believe behaved.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: So the antipsychotic medication was capable of altering that that reality, that delusional reality for me.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: And that's what like that cracked.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: Once that cracked, I was like, wait, I don't need to be doing this.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know what I mean?
36:48
SPEAKER_00: I do know what you mean.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's really amazing, isn't it, to look back at a belief that we held on to so tightly.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And to be able to see how non-factual it is.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was like so shocking, like you know what I mean?
37:12
SPEAKER_02: Especially because the medication was capable of breaking it almost immediately.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know?
37:17
SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, like that's one thing that I've um like, you know, people that have written to me after reading my book, they were just like, you know, like your bizarre behavior just made total sense when I understood what what the reason for it was.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I really hoped that my book would do.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: Like, because it's so easy for for to look at these stories of moms who've had tragic outcomes and been like, how could she do that to her kids?
37:44
SPEAKER_02: But it's like you don't know what her beliefs were, you don't know what was happening inside of her to fuel her to think that that was the best decision in that moment, right?
37:56
SPEAKER_02: It like that's why that's why, like, the like the I've gotten a lot of like interesting pokes at me about the title.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: Like, either people love it or people hate it, and they're just like, What, like, what are you trying to say?
38:08
SPEAKER_02: And I'm happy that that's the title that was chosen because that is what I'm I'm trying to to spur that kind of like interest and thinking because it came to me because uh like that's something that I often hear from like women, like, oh, I'm not a mom like that.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: And then it hurts me as a person that has suffered from postpartum psychosis because I feel like saying, What kind of mom?
38:29
SPEAKER_02: What do you mean?
38:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, what kind of mom?
38:31
SPEAKER_02: A mom that would do anything for her child, that would do anything to herself to protect your child?
38:36
SPEAKER_02: You're not a mom like that.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm pretty sure everybody is a mom like that.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: And these moms that that end up in these tragic with these tragic outcomes, in that moment at that time, they thought that they were doing right by by their child.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: They thought that they were doing something that was, you know, good, right?
38:57
SPEAKER_02: Because they were severely ill.
38:59
SPEAKER_02: And and I wanted to highlight also the fact that um I think what's important about my story is like um like you can see that the first time that I had postpartum psychosis, I had pretty serious delusions, but I didn't have any that were infanticidal or homicidal.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: I that only happened the second time.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: And it these kinds of what one thing that I've talked to my um psychiatrist about is that these symptoms don't just emerge from day one.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: You're pretty sick for a consistent amount of time before you get to that point.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: So the real thing is that with early intervention, nobody even needs to get to that point.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: In all of these cases of tragedies, these women have been uh their symptoms have been neglected to a point that led to that led them to that outcome.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: You know?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: What do you say to the mom who's listening to this interview right now who is sharing some of the thoughts that you're describing?
40:04
SPEAKER_00: Like for instance, um, I'm scared to have anybody else take care of my child, or um, you know, I'm afraid of I don't want to be the one to change my child's diaper because I'm afraid that I might hurt them, right?
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Those, what do you say to the mom who's having those thoughts that is now in this moment afraid?
40:31
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna use a really stigmatized term, but we all know that this comes out all the time for moms.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Feels like she's going crazy, right?
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Feels like, you know, is this postpartum psychosis?
40:44
SPEAKER_00: What do you say to that listener?
40:47
SPEAKER_02: So I think I would say um, I would remind the person that intrusive thoughts are extremely common in the postpartum period.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: Like 90% of moms experience intrusive thoughts.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: And they could be sexual, they could be uh violent, they could be religiously blasphemous, all of these kinds of things.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: And and thoughts are not actions.
41:07
SPEAKER_02: So people can have thoughts, but that doesn't, you know, that's not the same as as doing committing an act.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: So they shouldn't feel guilty about these thoughts that they're having.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, the thing, the other thing that I would say is if they are concerned that they are experiencing postpartum psychosis, um, intrusive thoughts are not uh a symptom of postpartum psychosis, they can occur in postpartum psychosis as with any other postpartum mood disorder.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: And I would say, you know, go to somebody like people in your family that you like if you're definitely seeing things in addition to the intrusive thoughts, if you're hearing voices in addition to the intrusive thoughts, if you have beliefs that if you suddenly have beliefs that that are not shared by other people, like in your family, other other people who you connect with, um, then I would say that's when you need to be concerned.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: Or if your family starts telling you that they're very concerned, you know, that you're behaving strangely and they want you to be checked out, like go with that.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: And even if you yourself are concerned about your intrusive thoughts, then go and get checked out and explain everything that's going on and be very open and not afraid to share what the thinking is behind your anxiety.
42:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, like if you are scared of letting your mom or sister watch your baby, take it, take it to the end of the sentence.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: I am scared of my sister watching my baby because you know, she's gonna throw her down the chairs, whatever it is that you're thinking.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: So then there's more there to explore.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
42:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, is this just like an anxious thought, or do you have uh uh, you know, like a kind of concerning belief that you that you internalized and that's like a fixed belief not rooted in reality, you know?
42:56
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: What I love about that, Aisha, is that you're opening up space for someone to be willing to get curious about that belief, right?
43:09
SPEAKER_00: To be able to say, is it possible that that's not true?
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Is it possible it's not true that so-and-so is going to throw your baby down the stairs?
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Is it possible it's not true that, you know, fill in the blank, scary thought?
43:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things that we look for, you know, as clinicians in the field, I'm not currently practicing traditional psychotherapy anymore, but I certainly, in my 20 years of doing this work, sat with a number of women and mothers who are experiencing psychosis.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Is that there's that that the ability, that that question, the willingness to challenge the belief is a really important part of this process.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes someone in a full blown psychosis might be, and sometimes they may not be.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: But sitting with the question is It's possible that it's not true is an important place to start.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's why we have to be like, and I'm so grateful for this opportunity to come on here because we have to like, like you were just saying uh previously, like, we have to be okay to sit in that like discomfort, right?
44:18
SPEAKER_02: Because only by exploring that discomfort can we like can we tell what's happening, what's actually at the base of all these things, right?
44:26
SPEAKER_00: I will tell people and myself over and over, always believe the feelings.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: The feelings are there to direct you in some direction.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: They're there to tell us something about what we need to be healthy and well.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: Always believe the feelings.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: Do not always believe the thoughts.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: Yes, for sure.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
44:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna copy that.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: So, so um, I mean, I seriously want to sit here and talk to you like for so long because I have so many questions.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: But um, we're gonna put in the show notes lots of resources for folks.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: So if people want to learn more about postpartum psychosis, if they want to kind of, you know, certainly postpartum support international, we will have in there.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: We want to make sure that people are feeling informed um by about postpartum psychosis after this conversation.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: If they are worried about someone or they're worried about themselves, we're gonna have all of that information there.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: We will have a link to your book.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: I really hope people read your book because it really does.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have never met you in person, Aisha, but you sound like me, right?
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Like I only hear your voice, but I hear myself in you.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things that I'm hoping this podcast does is normalizes all of the things that we go through, all the feelings we go through, all the situations we go through as mothers, so that we become less scared or less willing to lean in just back to that thing that we were talking about.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: So I I'm I guess what I'm wanting to sort of end with, and I'll give you a chance to say anything else that you feel like we haven't touched on today, it's important.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: But the question I want to ask you, like, I would love for you to share with us what it is that you have learned about yourself through this experience that you are really dang proud of.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, what's what do we what do you pull out of this that you celebrate in your life?
46:43
SPEAKER_02: I guess the thing that um I pull out of this is the fact that I never thought of myself as a strong person, but I think going through all of this taught me that I am resilient.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that applies to all of us.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: We're a lot more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: And just to always remember that just because you don't feel strong or you don't feel resilient doesn't mean that you aren't.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: We have that within us, that capability is within all of us.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes when we are pushed to that extreme, like when when events happen that push us, that's when when that resilience and strength gets to to come out.
47:23
SPEAKER_02: So don't ever underestimate your abilities or um, well, I I seriously underestimated my abilities to do interviews, but I've been doing a few of them.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: Estimate your the the strengths that you have, whether as like a human being or as a mother.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're so quick to to cut ourselves down, cut us ourselves off at the knees.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's one thing that this taught me.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, like I have more strength as a person than I give myself credit for.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Heck yes.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: I also I I am I want to read, if I may, I I hope it's okay if I do this.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: If not, we can cut it out later.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: But I want to read the last paragraph of your book.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Can can I read this last paragraph?
48:11
SPEAKER_00: Because there's something really profound in here that you say about connection.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: Would it be okay if I read that?
48:18
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: You say, given the religious delusions I experienced during my second time with postpartum psychosis, some may wonder what I truly believe about the role religion and God played in my illness.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: When Dr.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: Baker learned of the true extent of my religious delusions as I got better, she was floored.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: She asked how it was that I managed to come in and continue seeing her, despite feeling like they, like I couldn't reveal everything to her because she wasn't Muslim.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know then what I what to say, but I do now.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: My religious delusions may have prevented me from getting proper help sooner, but God is why I was sent Dr.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Baker Baker in Saraquil.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: And I want to I wanted to read that because it seems to me like your happy ending to all of this occurred when you found the person who could see, hear, and understand you.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: And that is like people, some people in your situation would have crisis would have happened before that happened because they didn't keep searching.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: You kept going, you kept looking until you found your Dr.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: Baker.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: And I will always forever, like my husband sometimes teases me and he's like, Oh my god, you love Dr.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: Baker.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I do, because she was she was my gateway to you know, healing.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: She was that person in my life that actually, like you said, listened.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: And that's all I needed.
50:02
SPEAKER_02: Somebody to listen to what I was saying.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: And and that's all.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: Like at the end of the day, like I wouldn't have gotten that medication if she hadn't opened her ears to hear what I had to say, you know?
50:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: And she believed you.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: She she took it all the way down to the beliefs, right?
50:20
SPEAKER_00: If we go down that whole cycle we just talked about, if she went all the way down to the beliefs and she said, I believe you that those are the beliefs you have.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: Let's help you with that.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: I just want to say, and maybe you have a little word of wisdom too.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Always find your person.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: Do not stop.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: If you are struggling, do not stop until you find that person who is willing and able to pause and sit with the discomfort and understand.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: And uh that to your point, that's the gateway, that was the gateway for you to become well.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: And that's why a lot of times, like sometimes people will go to a therapist.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: And I love um, you know, um, therapists and psychologists and all those, those people, because they also like, I mean, aside from the acute symptoms, like after I needed lots of therapy, and and they were so helpful in that regard in helping me get back to my baseline.
51:20
SPEAKER_02: But when sometimes when people come up to me and they're like, you know, I went to this therapist and she wasn't really good, I'm like, okay, but that's not the be all and end all.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: There are so many other people out there that was not your person.
51:33
SPEAKER_02: There are other people don't give up.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what?
51:35
SPEAKER_02: Just because you didn't have a connection with that person doesn't mean that there isn't another amazing therapist, psychologist, or somebody out there that can help you with what you're going through.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: And I might invite our listeners that if you know who that person is for you, to reach out and let them know.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: Because there is an amazing building of relationships when we get to come back after we've been struggling, or maybe even when we are struggling, and really affirm how important that connection is in our journey towards health and well-being.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: We all need that kind of connection.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: And pausing and reflecting on that, and sometimes even sharing gratitude is really, it's it's it really helps, right?
52:22
SPEAKER_02: And it probably like reinforces that to that therapist or or or whoever that person is that they've what they're doing is right and will reinforce them to continue that, you know?
52:33
SPEAKER_02: That's why I make sure I I put my uh doctor and my acknowledgement and went and personally dropped off my book.
52:40
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: And it might be a doctor, it also might be a friend or a sibling or a family member or a community member.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, we just need to find that person who's really willing to pause and sit with us and listen and hear us out.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm just so happy for you that you found you found your person.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't always end as well as your psychosis ended, right?
53:04
SPEAKER_00: You you got support and help, and that's not always the direction it goes for folks.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: And um we want to make sure more people get the kind of help that you got.
53:15
SPEAKER_02: Um and and thank you.
53:16
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to thank you, especially for saying that.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: You went uh when you said, you know, you just sound like me, like that's high praise compliment for me.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
53:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're so welcome.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: You're so welcome.
53:27
SPEAKER_00: It feels um I I I just I am constantly reminded that motherhood is the all-time equalizer.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: We're we're all in this together, and we all want what's best for our children.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there are factors at play, sometimes more severe biochemical, medical factors like postpartum psychosis.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're different, but they're all at factors at play that will influence how and why and where we uh, you know, get our child what we believe is in the best for them, what is best for them.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: And but we all do it.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're all in this for that.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: So um I appreciate you sharing your story.
54:19
SPEAKER_00: It's um valuable for me.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: I certainly am learning things, I'm sure, valuable for our listeners.
54:25
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that I didn't ask you about today that you think is important for our listeners to know?
54:34
SPEAKER_02: I think I would just like to end off by just reminding people that yes, this is the most severe um psychiatric illness that a woman can experience in her lifetime, but it is truly a treatable one.
54:47
SPEAKER_02: And there is no need to be afraid of it, like afraid to talk about it or anything.
54:53
SPEAKER_02: The real fear of this illness comes from the tragedies that it causes.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: And those tragedies are caused by not knowing about it.
55:00
SPEAKER_02: So educate yourself and don't be afraid because it's easily treatable.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: And I would say that for most things, when we hide and push down and avoid most things, that's where crisis happens.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: And so um, even if someone is not experiencing postpartum psychosis or, you know, is you know, just that, just being willing to ask ourselves the hard questions, to lean into those hard feelings, to trust that our emotions are worth paying attention to, uh, that's what's gonna help us get through those things rather than ignoring or denying or um, you know, for sure.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Distracting.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm super grateful.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: And um, is there anything you would like to say um directly about where people can find you or where people can find your book?
55:56
SPEAKER_00: Again, we'll have all that in the show notes, but but any um, yeah.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so uh definitely people can go for help for postpartum psychosis or where to connect to services through postpartum support international.
56:08
SPEAKER_02: If people are interested in learning more about postpartum psychosis, um from my experiences and uh like uh the awareness that I'm creating, I have an Instagram account.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: Um the handle is um Aisha LV Rights.
56:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I share posts and um uh um about postpartum psychosis insights that I've had, facts and stuff like that.
56:31
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so I would I would highly recommend that um that people that feel like they they have a client who has postpartum psychosis and just you know they need that kind of validation about it, they can visit, um, they can follow me on that handle.
56:46
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, for help, postpartum support international is amazing, action on postpartum psychosis is amazing, MGH um is amazing.
56:57
SPEAKER_02: So all of those things are are great.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: And all those organizations.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: I know that you're a big advocate and volunteer and a lot of maternal mental health organizations, and those organizations have people who are trained to understand and who are not going to judge, right?
57:15
SPEAKER_00: Who are going to really be those people who can see, hear, and understand and help um help people get well.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: So that's amazing.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: Aisha, thank you.
57:23
SPEAKER_00: Really grateful for your time today.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for all the work that you do and helping to spread awareness of this.