Latest / The OneCry Podcast / #172 Special Report - Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Navigating Faith and Politics in America

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#172 Special Report - Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Navigating Faith and Politics in America · The OneCry Podcast

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No matter who gets elected, the fact is that there are problems in this nation,
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moral and spiritual, that no government can possibly solve.
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And that's where we come in, that's where the church comes in,
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that's where One Cry comes in.
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Welcome to the One Cry Podcast, a nationwide call for spiritual awakening.
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The goal, accelerating the movement of God through sharing revival truth, stories, and reports.
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Today, I am so blessed to be able, on this one week preceding election day,
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to be able to interview and just have a little conversation with a dear friend,
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but someone I've always looked up to to address topics that are critical in
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our culture And right now, obviously,
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the election, how we approach it as pastors,
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leaders, as believers, and it's such an important topic for the Church of Jesus Christ.
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And so we have Dr. Erwin Lutzer.
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Dr. Lutzer, I think as you pastored Moody Church, you may have had the longest
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tenure of any pastor at Moody Church. was it something like 28 years? Am I correct?
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Well, actually, you're not correct, and you are low.
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It is 36 years. Wow. And to the glory of God, Ironside was there for 18.
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So up until my coming, the longest tenure was 18 years, and God allowed me to be there for 36.
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Wow. I was just talking to one of my staff this morning, and we just said there's
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something to be said about faithfulness and listening to men of God and women
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of God who are faithful over the long haul and the depth and the richness of what they have to share.
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So thank you for your faithfulness, Dr. Lutzer, and so grateful for this opportunity.
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And you sent me very kindly an inscribed copy of your newest book called The Eclipse of God.
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And I got that. I was so intrigued by it.
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Every chapter title that I just reviewed again this morning just had such depth to it.
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And I would love to begin by why that title?
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Why Eclipse of God? What did you address that is important for us to understand
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about the eclipse of God?
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Well, Byron, as you know, and by the way, let me say that I'm so grateful for
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the ministry of One Cry, uniting Christians to pray, and I'm sure we'll get into that.
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But with reference to your question, the eclipse of God—.
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As you and I know, when there is an eclipse of the sun, the moon comes between the earth and the sun.
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Now, it doesn't affect the sun at all, but it does affect the earth.
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And I argue in the book that the moon of secularism has blotted the face of God.
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And certainly Israel had that experience.
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In chapter 59 of the book of Isaiah, you remember God says very clearly,
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my arm is not shortened that I cannot save you, my ear is not deaf,
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but your iniquities have separated between you and me,
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and I have hidden my face from you.
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So I argue in the book that certainly as we drift away from God,
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darkness is coming on the land, and what we need to do is to understand the
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source of that darkness.
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I go into the intellectual roots of it, you know, not to get too far off,
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but you'll notice that in the book I talk about Nietzsche who proclaimed the death of God.
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In the late 1800s. And then he said this, cannot you hear the noise of the gravediggers
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who have buried God? Well, what gravediggers?
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Well, I think they were Marx that I deal with, Darwin and Freud,
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and I show how these ideas have permeated the culture.
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And the burden of the book is this, you know, Byron, Americans don't mind saying
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they believe in God just as long as they get to choose the God in whom they believe, you know what?
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They end up making themselves God, as I point out in the chapter, nearer my God to me.
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So what we need to do, and what we're going to be talking about,
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surely, is to get back to the Bible and the God revealed there,
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and not just the gods of popular culture.
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Yeah, and I'll tell you what pops into my heart and mind is Psalm 83 times.
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The psalmist prays, turn us again, O God, unto thee, and cause your face to
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shine upon us, and we'll be delivered.
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And obviously, and we've talked about this in the past, we aren't turning to
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him, and that's why his face isn't shining upon us, and we aren't being delivered.
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And maybe that's a good segue, Erwin, here.
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Being delivered from what? We look to Washington to deliver us so quickly and
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to politics. And this is the 2024 election season, regardless of when you're
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listening to this podcast.
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It transcends any election and any date on the calendar.
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But talk to us a little bit about what is it that you see among believers that
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concerns you as it relates to going in, maybe in this election season and going into election day?
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Well, first of all, Byron, I want to say this, that politics is important.
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You know, this past April, I was preaching in Albania again.
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And when communism came there, it shut down about 1,200 churches. and synagogues.
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So the way I put it is this, that politics and having a good government cannot
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save us, but it can free us, and bad government can shut churches down.
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So politics is very important, but it is not all important.
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And what we have to do is to recognize that politics has its place,
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But as believers, let's begin here in our discussion.
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We need to be able to look beyond the political world and,
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And for all those who are striving with fear and instability because of the
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polarization of our culture, I want to encourage them by, first of all,
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before we get into the deep weeds of politics and our relationship to it,
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to remind ourselves that God is still God.
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As a matter of fact, Byron, someone whom we know quite well wrote a book entitled Heaven Rules.
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Now, here's what I'd like to say.
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Think of Isaiah chapter 6.
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King Uzziah was king for 52 years, giving the nation a great deal of stability.
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He ended somewhat badly, but he was a relatively good king.
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In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and
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lifted up, and his train filled the temple. What is God saying? Isaiah?
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The throne of Israel might be empty, but the throne in heaven is very well occupied.
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So when we see this instability in our country, and it certainly might get worse,
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what we have to do is to recognize that God is still God.
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He controls the weather. He controls whatever is happening, and God is the ultimate one.
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For example, the verse is just coming to mind in the Psalms.
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Promotion comes neither from the east nor from the west nor from the south,
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but God is judge. He pulls down one and sets up another.
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Now, that doesn't mean that we don't have an obligation.
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We are up against this conundrum that we've talked about many times,
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namely the relationship of human responsibility and sovereignty.
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But in the end, what we need to do is to see God.
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We recognize, as I've emphasized, politics is important, but even something
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more important, and that is God.
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And one other thing, no matter who gets elected, we all know that policy is
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very important, but no matter who gets elected, the fact is that there are problems
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in this nation, moral and spiritual,
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that no government can possibly solve.
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And that's where we come in. That's where the church comes in.
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That's where one cry comes in.
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And that's why we have to call on God.
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But let's remember, God is still there, and he still keeps his promises to his people.
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And bringing in Isaiah chapter 6, we talked about our ages a little while ago
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before we came on the podcast.
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And you remember, I remember where I was sitting when I heard John F.
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Kennedy was assassinated when he was shot.
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And so we lost our Uzziah, so
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to speak. But I love the fact that Isaiah said, but I saw also the Lord.
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And I kind of fear sometimes, and this is what I'd like to ask you,
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that we are focusing so much on our human leaders and too little on the God
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who reigns rules above all human leaders.
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But there's been a pendulum shift. And I'd love for you to talk about Christian nationalism.
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And it seems like some who are balanced in this whole thing are because they
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engage in politics, they're immediately called Christian nationalists.
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How do we distinguish? What's a Christian nationalist?
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And maybe there's I know you did a lecture on this. So you may want to just
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give us that quickly, those points in that lecture. But can you talk to us a
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little bit about Christian nationalism?
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Yes, I'd be glad to. As a matter of fact, I think at the end of this broadcast,
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we're going to be talking about that lecture, which I gave in Germany,
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in Nuremberg, where Hitler had his great rallies.
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And then we went over to the courthouse where the Nazis were tried.
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And I continue to talk about the role of politics, the role of law,
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and so forth. And we'll make that available. But here's what I want to say.
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Christian nationalism is when
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the gospel is so blended with a political agenda that the gospel is lost.
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But let me give you different ways that we can configure the cross and the flag.
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The flag, of course, representing the state.
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First of all, what you have is the flag above the cross. That's Nazi Germany.
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And I could go into this in detail because I've also lectured this in Berlin
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and so forth. But here's what happened.
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There was no gospel. There was only politics.
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Only politics. And politics was the gospel.
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And we know where that led to some very horrible politics and the whole Holocaust.
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So that's one way to configure it. Now, let's look at another way,
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and let's think of it this way, and I kind of made this up to help people think about this.
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What you also had in Germany was the people who had, shall we say, the cross and no flag.
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Those were the pietists who said, you know, we're not going to get involved
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in the controlling realities of our culture.
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We're going to have our Bible studies. We are going to make sure that we are
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taking care of our families, and we're going to have no input into the culture at all.
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Now, very interestingly, in my book, Hitler's Cross,
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I talk about a church like that where the trains ran behind the church on the
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way to a concentration camp, and the church totally ignored those trains.
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As a matter of fact, people just sang more loudly.
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But here's what I want to say, Byron. Let's not be too critical.
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If you and I were there, we might not know what we would do either.
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But that's one way. And then you have a third way that we could speak about.
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And that is when the cross opposes the flag.
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That's when we have to stand against government.
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And if there are people out there who are listening who think we always have
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to obey the government, you have just put the government in the place of God.
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If there's no authoritative power above the Supreme Court of the United States,
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then the Supreme Court is God.
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And if you as an individual have no authority above you, you are your God.
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So let's keep in mind, it is so important for us to understand that we sometimes
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have to go against the government, and we've seen this throughout history.
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And then there's another way where I define it as the cross.
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And the flag. There are many sincere Christians who really do believe in the gospel,
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believe in salvation by faith, but they have really closely identified a political
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party with the gospel, and there's been confusion.
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There's no way that we can talk about this without mentioning January 6th,
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because there were some people who went into the capital and they were carrying crosses.
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Many of these probably were Christians, I don't know, but it did muddy the waters.
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But what's happened since Byron is now anybody who's patriotic is seen as a
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Christian nationalist.
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No matter how you slice that event, it is indeed a dark moment in American history.
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But before you ask me another question, Byron, I'm getting to the next way,
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which I see it and which is my conviction.
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And that is we need to speak about the cross above the flag.
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But having said that, you know, a friend of mine was giving a lecture on Christian
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nationalism and much of what he said was good. But then he said this.
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America is not the savior of the world. Jesus is.
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Well, of course, what Christian is going to argue with that?
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But Byron, America isn't the great hope of the world, but there's no country
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on this planet that has sent as many missionaries, thousands of them throughout
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the world to tell them that Jesus was their only hope.
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And you and I have traveled. You apparently were in India recently.
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I've traveled to different countries of the world.
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All those ministries are supported by American dollars. So this is what I tell pastors.
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I personally have never endorsed a political candidate or a political party.
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I think that causes unnecessary stumbling blocks, so I disagree with some of my friends on that.
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But what we have to do is to preach the Bible on issues which today are deemed political.
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Now, I'm doing this from memory. I didn't review anything, so I'm going to very
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quickly give you a couple of these examples, though there are more.
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What about the role of parents in bringing up their children?
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They have a tremendous responsibility, and they can't throw their lambs to wolves.
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Is that a political issue today?
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Absolutely, that's a political issue.
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So there are issues like this, the LGBTQ+, is that a political issue?
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Well, you'd better believe it's a political issue. The trans movement is a political
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issue. Is it a biblical issue?
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Oh, I could talk about this for a long time because I was just in Washington about three weeks ago,
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hearing testimonies of girls who transitioned and who had surgery and now are
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sitting there weeping because they have negated any possibility of becoming a wife and a mother.
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They sit there crying. But is it a political issue?
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You'd better believe it's a political issue. And then one other thing that happens
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to be a hobby horse of mine, human rights.
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Is that a political issue? You know, there was somebody on one of our news channels
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that says this, Christians believe that they have rights that come from God and not the state.
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I had to smile. If that's what a Christian nationalist is, make me one thank you.
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And now, Byron, I am going to end this because I know you didn't expect such a long answer.
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But here I am in Nuremberg, where the Nazis were tried, in room 600.
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And the question was this, by what law should they be tried?
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Should they be tried by American law, British law? What about German law?
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They argued we did not break any laws because Hitler made the killing of Jews legal.
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So that's why in my book, The Eclipse of God, I have a whole chapter on the
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role of law, why it has to be grounded in transcendent principles.
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But here's the point, and I argue it,
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and this is also on the link that we're going to make available,
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showing why human rights have to be grounded in the story of creation,
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the creation of man, and transcendent laws that apply to all cultures have to
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be grounded in transcendent truths that come to us from God.
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Now, are all of these things political?
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Yes. Are they biblical? Yes.
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So we have to maintain that distinction.
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And then what we need to do is to understand that we have an obligation to preach
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on issues which are thoroughly biblical.
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But unfortunately, today, they're also political.
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What's your response to what I've just said, Byron? Well, I do want to go back
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to something you said in relation to how I was in India,
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I was in Singapore, and we had another one of my One Cry team members in Indonesia.
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In Indonesia, this past May...
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The One Cry Prayer Group had prayed 1,000 consecutive days for revival and most
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of the time for revival in America.
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When I was in India, I was blown away when I was with about 130 pastors.
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And every one of them by raise of hand said, we are praying for revival in America.
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And I was taken back when they knew more about what was going on in America
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than even I did in some very critical areas in government. And here's my point
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on that. And that is, you're right.
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They understand where their nations are with any light of Christianity.
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It came from America. And they said, if America does not have revival,
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if it's not transformed, we don't see any hope for us.
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And so we are a nation that may not be exceptional in God's eyes over any other nation,
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but we are a nation with a rich history and a rich potential to continue to
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impact the world with the gospel.
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And so I just wanted to echo what you said.
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They understand how important this is in America. And Byron,
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I almost interrupted you because I wanted to shout hallelujah in the midst of what you were saying.
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Of course, America isn't the great hope of the world. Christ.
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And that's why what we must do is to pray for America.
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That's why I thank God for one
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cry. That's why I thank God for the many people who are praying for us.
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Because believe it or not, America, despite all of its faults,
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and we can talk about its history of racism and all that, but the simple fact is,
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No nation on earth has done as much to spread the gospel.
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So that's why politics is important, but it's not all important.
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And as I already emphasized, there are spiritual and moral issues in America
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that only the church can speak to and only repentance can deal with.
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So I was meeting with a congressman in the Capitol building,
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and I asked how I could pray for him.
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And he said, there's a major division right now with one of my sons,
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and he hasn't talked to me in two years, won't come to family gathering.
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And I just asked, why? And he says, it's because of one position that I took
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on Ukraine and Russia and that whole thing. and it divided. So here's my question.
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Practically, where the rubber hits the road, I grew up in a home where my grandfather
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on my mom's side was the chairman of the county Republican Party,
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and the grandfather on my dad's side was chairman of the Democratic Party in
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our county at the same time. And there wasn't any division.
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We just disagreed agreeably.
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And so Today, I don't think that's isolated with that congressman.
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In the church, there is such division and even animosity if somebody stands
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in a different place, either on issues, but unfortunately, maybe on the personality involved.
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How can we as believers enter this election day coming up and this season in
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a way that we don't create division and alienation, but harmony in the midst of it all.
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I'm going to look at this optimistically and say, what a wonderful opportunity
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for the church to prove that our unity in Christ is stronger than our political unity.
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And what we need to do is to say to people who disagree with us,
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no matter how much our convictions are different from theirs,
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if you're a believer, let's get together, let's pray together.
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If we can, let us discuss together In some instances, it might not be wise to
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even bring up the discussion.
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I know families in which politics cannot be discussed because of divisions and
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because such deeply held feelings are on one side and the other.
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And, you know, to all those who are out there, you might not like either of
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the candidates that we are asked to vote for.
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But my contention is that what you have to do is to recognize that we have two
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flawed candidates and ask yourself, what do they believe?
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What is the position of the different parties?
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Which one comes closer to my biblical convictions?
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And then what we have to do is to vote.
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Now, I take the point of view, not like some Christians who say,
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well, you know, I can't accept either of them.
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I'm not going to vote. I'm sorry.
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You and I did not get a chance to choose who was going to be at the head of these two tickets.
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In both cases, I would have chosen someone else if it were up to me,
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but it's not up to me. So what we have to do is to vote for the one that comes closest to,
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Knowing that we cannot expect much from the government, but hopefully to maintain freedom.
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And then what we have to do is to go on from there.
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So to all those who are out there, don't use politics as a means of division.
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There are times when you can't talk about it because the feelings are too deep
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and it's not worth risking your friendship.
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And you're bonding. But there are other times when reasonable people can bring up the discussions,
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have a discussion, and then like your family, Byron, and that's so interesting
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the way you described it with one a Democrat and the other Republican,
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and then you can have your differences,
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enjoy Thanksgiving,
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enjoy Christmas, and always remember that we can live with those tensions if
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we recognize that in Christ we are one.
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And while I'm on the topic, I'm going to talk about racism.
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Speaking of being one, in Colossians, the apostle Paul says these words,
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In Christ there's neither Jew nor Greek bond or free, Scythian, barbarian, and,
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but we are one in Christ. Paul didn't say Jews become Greeks,
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Greeks become Jews, barbarians become Scythians.
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We maintain our ethnicity, however we are born, but there's that transcendent unity.
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And even though we're not talking about it now, I think I've talked to you about
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it before on a different program.
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When it comes to critical race theory, critical race theory tears apart everything
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that Jesus died to bring together.
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So what the church has to model is unity in Christ, despite differences in ethnicity
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and even political differences.
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Let's let our viewers and listeners, where can they get Amazon, the Eclipse of God?
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Is there another source you recommend? Yeah the Eclipse
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of God you can go to Amazon Christian Book
27:18
is good Christian Book has a good sale on it also
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moodymedia.org there are some of you listeners who might want to help us financially
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and what it says is for a gift of any amount we'll send you the Eclipse of God
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so feel free to do that and before we leave that subject Byron I want to emphasize
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the very last chapter in the book.
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By the way, I show the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, why God is the same.
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I show why it isn't safer to sin in the New Testament than it was the old.
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But the last chapter, returning to the God of wrath and grace,
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not the God of unconditional love.
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My burden is this. We have to get back to the God of the Bible and not the God
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of popular culture whom we have domesticated and made sin friendly.
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And that's why we have to urge people to come to Jesus to save us from the wrath to come.
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And in that epilogue, your final chapter, I think you quote Adrian Rogers.
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And when he made this statement, praise God, it's getting gloriously dark.
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I love that gloriously dark phrase because that's when we can get desperate, right? Yes.
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So finishing up and then I want you
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to pray as if you were standing in your pulpit at
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Moody Church and you were praying on the Sunday before the election day to your
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congregation leading them in a prayer and that's how I want to close but the
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reference earlier to the lecture on the Christian nationalism,
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how could we access that, those points?
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And I'll tell you what, I'm going to tell them how we can access it.
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If you're listening to this podcast, just go to the notes section here.
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And we, on the show notes, have a link where you can get that information.
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So, Erwin, you send that to me as soon as you can after we finish this podcast.
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I will. I will. It's available.
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And certainly I'll send it to you instantly.
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Great. And would you pray? Close this time. There's a lot of pastors out there.
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And I think they're probably saying, what am I going to say this Sunday?
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What am I going to say on the Sunday before the election day?
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And how am I going to pray?
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How are we going to pray as a congregation? And maybe just lead us,
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these pastors, in prayer as we seek the Lord for his will and his divine direction.
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Father,
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We feel like Jehoshaphat. The army has come against us.
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We don't know what to do, but our eyes are on you.
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Father, help us to deal with sin in our own lives, the sin in our congregations.
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May you purify your church.
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May you give us the grace to accept whatever leader you give us.
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Help us to know that you cast the deciding vote ultimately,
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and that you use leaders which oftentimes have been even evil and yet you've used them,
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And so, Father, we ask that the church might be the church in giving the healing
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message of Christ, because we believe that that agenda, the cross,
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has to be above the flag.
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Though we believe the flag is important, it is not all important.
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Father, I pray that you might work in people's hearts to draw us together and not apart,
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to seek your face together, to deal with individual issues within our lives,
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within our families, for your glory, for your honor, and as a credit to your most holy kingdom.
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We pray, Lord, that in the midst of our great need as a nation,
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that in various parts you might raise up prayer warriors who say, We will stand,
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we will intercede, we will pray that you might still show us your mercy and
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your glory in the midst of our
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brokenness, our darkness, and oftentimes in the midst of our stupidity.
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Make us agents of healing in a country that has a great wound.
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We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you.
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Thank you. And wow, we're across the lake from each other, but my heart is there
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so much with you and how God continues to use you and your radio broadcast,
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your books, and keep it up, dear friend, keep it up.
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Thank you so much, Byron, and God bless you.
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And keep up one cry.
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Music.