Latest / The Future Herd / 20: From Mistakes to Mentorship: Leadership in Agricultural Ecosystems with Jenn MacTavish

Transcript

20: From Mistakes to Mentorship: Leadership in Agricultural Ecosystems with Jenn MacTavish · The Future Herd

0:01
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.
0:03
Welcome to The Future Herd.
0:11
I've always been fascinated by how people find their way into
0:15
leadership, not through a straight line, but through curiosity and saying
0:20
yes to unexpected opportunities.
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Jen McTavish embodies that perfectly.
0:27
She started with a dream of law school, stumbled into animal science through
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a university course catalogue, and has since travelled the world working
0:36
with agricultural organisations.
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And now she's leading the Agricultural Adaptation Council through a critical
0:45
transition, bringing her unique blend of hands-on experience, humility, and
0:50
an infectious enthusiasm for learning.
0:54
Of course, the A A C is our partner organisation, and Jen is
0:59
a member of our production team.
1:03
And that's part of the reason why for episode 20, we're bringing Jen on to
1:08
add a little more transparency to how we put things together, but also to take a
1:13
moment of introspection, of reflection, of thinking about what we've accomplished
1:19
so far and what we plan to do next.
1:23
So in this episode, we'll talk about what does adaptation really mean?
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How do we create leadership cultures that nurture talent instead of burning it out?
1:33
And what can we do to make the future heard so that the whole is
1:39
greater than the sum of the parts.
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Alright, let's tune in.
1:51
Welcome to the Future Herd.
1:53
Jenn: Thank you, Jesse.
1:54
Good to see you.
1:58
Jesse Hirsh: actually listened to a few of our episodes.
2:01
I can roll right into our first question.
2:04
What is, what does the future mean to
2:08
Jenn: Why did I, uh, I am not prepared to answer that question despite having
2:12
listened to all of the podcast episodes.
2:15
yeah.
2:17
I don't know what it means to me, but I think when I think about the future, the
2:20
feelings I get are, you know, curiosity, excitement, um, kind of like a brave new
2:28
world are the words that are coming to me.
2:30
I think the world's going in a in a direction you've never seen before.
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And um, yeah, I'm kind of curious to see how it ends.
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Jesse Hirsh: make it there.
2:40
Now, one of the advantages I have
2:43
episode is this is not our first conversation, and so I will indulge
2:48
in referencing conversations we've had that our podcast audience do
2:52
not necessarily have access to.
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I was thinking that the one thing, I don't know, in spite of us having a, a.
3:00
Quite a number of really interesting chats is how you got into agriculture.
3:05
I, I don't think I really know your origin story from a sectoral perspective,
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Jenn: It's a bit of a long story.
3:13
Um, I grew up in Brampton, which is not really known for
3:18
its agriculture much anymore,
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at all.
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And I went to university, um, Destin for law school or so I thought, but
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found out when you go to Guelph, you could take a whole course on
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horses and a whole course on pigs.
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And I was in international development and most development
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work is agriculture based.
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And so I just followed the trail.
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I just, I got a BA in international development.
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I went back, got A BSC in animal science.
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Thankfully they had production courses at the time at the university and
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then had a prophet at the University of Guelph who got me hooked on
3:56
nutrition and ended up getting a master's in ruminant nutrition and.
4:02
Felt literally fell into agriculture through just saying
4:05
yes to all the things in front of me that interested me the most.
4:10
Jesse Hirsh: think there's a thread worth pulling there in terms of, you know,
4:14
the way in which leadership is a kind of a force of gravity that as long as you
4:18
don't resist it, it kind of draws you
4:21
Jenn: That's interesting.
4:22
Jesse Hirsh: But a
4:23
a with your
4:25
early international development stuff, did that, uh, either enable
4:29
or encourage you to do any travel?
4:31
And, and if so, I'm curious where you went and what your experiences were like.
4:36
Jenn: So I did not travel much in the ID degree.
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We had plans for travel that got cancelled and, and things kind of,
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um, you know, I travelled mostly through my work in agriculture
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and it's sort of weird how things.
4:50
Sort of come full circle.
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I wanted to do like trade law and a lot of agriculturalist trade.
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So things find there, you, you end up exactly where you're meant to be.
4:59
Um, but through work I was really super fortunate to be able to go
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to some pretty awesome places.
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Um,
5:10
Do you want me to list them all?
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Just,
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Jesse Hirsh: Well, that as, as an excuse to
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Jenn: Yeah.
5:17
Jesse Hirsh: into them, because a lot of the
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talk to on the podcast, know, their leadership path, I, I
5:24
don't wanna say is narrow, but it's kind of focused versus you
5:29
have.
5:30
A, a diversity, for lack of a better word, like you, I, one
5:34
Jenn: mm.
5:35
Jesse Hirsh: I keep coming back to on the podcast is
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I'm curious about the perspectives that leaders get.
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Yours is diverse.
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You've had a lot of interesting perspectives.
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So why don't we use that as a way to describe the, the different opportunities
5:48
that have kind of, uh, you've stumbled into from your own description.
5:53
Jenn: Yeah, like
5:54
Jesse Hirsh: like
5:54
Jenn: I think, you know, in addition to saying yes to the things that interest
5:58
me, which I encourage everybody to do,
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um, is,
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Jesse Hirsh: is,
6:03
Jenn: You know, I, I ended up in a, in an industry where I was allowed
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to take on positions for better or for worse, that were kind of
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punching above my weight and that, oh.
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So I worked in the sheep industry for a lot of years and, um, through
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working in the sheep industry, I got, I got to go and do, um, travel in
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New Zealand and Australia and Europe.
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And talk about things like animal health and sit around the table with
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people who had so many more years of experience than I did and had such a
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rich diversity and history of experience.
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Um, I don't, I don't take for granted how lucky I was to have that at, at
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my age that I was when I was doing it.
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Um.
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Then was, you know, because I
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uh,
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I I, would, I learned a lot.
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I, I would just say I learned so much through that experience.
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And of course, you know, I was chatting with somebody the other day
7:09
and we were talking about a situation they were in, and I said, you know,
7:12
I'm, I'm just giving you this advice because I've made that mistake, right?
7:16
Like, I made so many mistakes.
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And I think that's where.
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The real kind of diversity of my leadership that you speak of really
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comes from is where I fumbled.
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Jesse Hirsh: that's why we should be allowing young people to get
7:31
into positions of leadership
7:33
Jenn: Yes.
7:34
Jesse Hirsh: they have the runway to fuck
7:37
Jenn: Yeah.
7:37
Jesse Hirsh: from those mistakes in, in a healthy way.
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But there's something I want to tease out that I, I kind of
7:43
inferred in your description, which is a joy of learning because that
7:48
Jenn: Yeah.
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Jesse Hirsh: side to making mistakes.
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'cause if you
7:51
you, you, you are just gonna keep repeating those mistakes.
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And, and it sounds like part of your North Star, if I want to use that
7:59
cliche, is you kind of enjoyed those challenges and enjoyed those opportunities
8:04
because they were hands-on learning.
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Am I right in thinking that?
8:09
Jenn: In hindsight, a hundred percent in the moment, it is tough to enjoy
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it, um, especially when you are.
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You have the capacity and are afforded that capacity
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to say, yeah, that was wrong.
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Um, or that was a really bad decision.
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Uh, and you were lucky enough to have people around you who were gracious
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and said, yeah, it's no problem.
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Here we go.
8:34
This is how we fix it.
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So I think not only was I learning by doing, I was learning by doing
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in an environment where people.
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I had my back and where people were super gracious when I came
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back to 'em with an apology and they were like, yeah, no problem.
8:48
Here we go.
8:49
Let's fix it.
8:50
Right?
8:50
And I think that's, that's where we really fail sometimes, is when we
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don't, when we aren't gracious with people enough to say, you know what?
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You made a mistake and it's not life limiting and this
9:02
is how we're gonna fix it.
9:03
And you have their back.
9:05
I think that's, I've seen a lot of.
9:08
I've had a lot of conversations with people who haven't had that
9:11
level of support around them.
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Jesse Hirsh: what I get to do as a host of this podcast is flatter my guess.
9:17
Uh, and, and in your case,
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Jenn: You don't have to do that.
9:20
Jesse Hirsh: in your case, you're right?
9:24
And the way in which wisdom is both a byproduct of failure, a, a byproduct
9:29
of support, and, and the, the, the kind of encouragement that follows failure.
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But also, you know, a consequence of the path we take and, and what
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you're describing is not so much a path of intention, but more a path
9:44
of curiosity and a path of openness.
9:47
You know, now that I'm for
9:50
it, what role do you think wisdom plays in, in the way in which a
9:54
leader matures over time to ideally grow into more powerful positions?
10:01
I think what I'm also hearing is.
10:03
Develop a healthy sense of humility that allows that leadership
10:07
to be even more effective.
10:09
Jenn: like I think so there's just something, I'm gonna pick on a word
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there, like powerful, like I think leadership happens regardless of
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what position you're in or where you sit in an organisation or if you're
10:19
even in an organisation, but, and.
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I think humility is really the point.
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I think if we can, if we can create environments and, um,
10:33
workspaces where, where people are encouraged to make mistakes.
10:38
You know, I had a, a board chair Wednesday.
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It's okay if you're making a mistake, it means you're doing something.
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So if we encourage that in people and we have guardrails around them.
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As the people who've been through it in the past, right?
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To sort of be able to show them the exit or you know, the
10:57
bend, the curve in the road.
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Um, that's our best way to help build resilience within that person
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who we see as somebody who has great potential in the industry.
11:08
Um, and also to keep some in the industry, right?
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Jesse Hirsh: retention piece is, is easy to gloss over in no small part because
11:17
the people who leave be forgotten, right?
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They, they're not always there to be counted.
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And when we first met you, you kind of gave me this image of generational change.
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Which really resonated with me.
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And in fact, I've
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Jenn: Yeah.
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Jesse Hirsh: in talking to other people, those of us of a certain age, and I,
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I would qualify it as either Gen X or kind of, you know, older millennial.
11:41
We've seen our leaders take a lot of crap and, and we've seen
11:46
Jenn: Yeah.
11:47
Jesse Hirsh: elevated into
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who took a lot of crap.
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Many of us are just like,
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Jenn: yeah,
11:53
Jesse Hirsh: thanks.
11:54
I don't know
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to subject myself to that kind.
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Uh, uh, scrutiny and harassment.
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The most obvious example of this, of course, is elected office that we
12:05
used to, in theory, get the best and brightest running for elected office.
12:08
Now, the best and brightest are like, no,
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Jenn: Sure.
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Jesse Hirsh: I, I, I don't want to go there.
12:13
I, I'm rambling, but I would love to hear you kind of share your
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thoughts on this, not just in terms of assessing kind of what's happening.
12:21
To your last answer,
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how we can address it, how we can reverse it and incentivize people
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who should be, uh, uh, taking these opportunities, leaning in, uh,
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to the kind of responsibility and opportunities that are in the sector,
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but kind of don't wanna take the crap that they've seen other people take.
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Jenn: Yeah, that's a super good question.
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And you know, I've had this conversation with a lot of people, some of whom
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are like staring down retirement, and they're like, where is my succession?
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And.
12:53
So there's that part of the conversation is how do we prepare our leaders?
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So we're gonna use leaders here in the terms of like our general
13:00
managers or our senior leaders with job title, um, job titles.
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How do we prepare them and get their minds wrapped around the fact that
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the best legacy they have is a good succession plan and, you know, train.
13:19
Mentor, they're, they're their replacements.
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If you, will's a bad word, but replacement.
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But you are right, like I know a couple of really bright, um, you know,
13:32
enthusiastic people who I would love to just keep in the industry, right?
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And they don't have to be in this industry.
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They are choosing to work here.
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I.
13:41
am trying my best to be like, how do we keep you here?
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How do I introduce you to people who I think could be good mentors?
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How do I find, help you find jobs that align with your
13:52
skillset or your interests?
13:53
And I think that's part of what we have to sort of engage in as well.
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Like we could have really good people working for us and we
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want them in the industry.
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But do they have to be in our organisation or can we mentor them into a role where
14:07
they're just in our other department?
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Like our industry is so small, we don't lose them.
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When they go to another org, they just move to our other department, if you will.
14:17
Um, and so there's two, there's two kind of paths here, right?
14:21
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and I think what you're describing is a different culture, right?
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On the one hand, it's kind of a network
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Jenn: Mm.
14:29
Jesse Hirsh: where you're sort of accepting that
14:31
a larger ecosystem and that we don't need to be hoarding talent.
14:35
We don't need to be hoarding resources.
14:38
There's, you know, a, a natural
14:40
work together.
14:42
there, there's something else you said that kind of.
14:45
Gave me this, this insight, which is really a unique
14:50
sector when it comes to talent.
14:52
on the one hand, from my perspective, and this is certainly
14:55
what I'm learning and doing, the
14:57
herd agriculture produces incredible talent like.
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Absolutely
15:03
Jenn: Yeah.
15:03
Jesse Hirsh: talent.
15:04
The, the ingredients in place, especially for people who grow up in
15:08
the sector, creates a, a, a talent, uh, talented, diverse and resilient
15:15
people, but they're not really valued they can go to almost any take those
15:21
skills and apply those skills outside of the sector and probably make more
15:25
money and get more respect and get more
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Jenn: And probably make more money.
15:31
Yeah.
15:32
Jesse Hirsh: to me is
15:33
Jenn: Yeah.
15:34
Jesse Hirsh: that, that we,
15:36
to address, not just 'cause we want to attract external talent, but because
15:41
I think we need to do a better job of retaining and valuing existing talent.
15:45
I, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
15:48
Jenn: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
15:49
Like, um,
15:52
the, the skillset that people get when they work in agriculture and
15:55
agricultural commodity groups.
15:57
'cause we tend to be kind of small.
15:58
So we're sort of like the jack of all trades is easily
16:02
transferable into industries where.
16:07
Society holds more value.
16:09
So you'll get paid more to do that.
16:11
Um, and I tell this crazy story about, I, I had an employee stay with me
16:16
probably 18 months longer than they should have for their skillset because
16:21
I let them bring their dog to work.
16:24
Right?
16:25
Like if you, if you can figure out how to like, it's not, when we work
16:30
in agriculture, we tend to work in agriculture 'cause we're passionate.
16:34
We love the industry.
16:35
It is a great industry and you do get to learn so much.
16:39
Like it has, it has been probably one of the best choices of my
16:43
life to stay in this industry.
16:45
Um, but it is not as well paid and the rewards aren't always there.
16:50
And it does feel like the slogs sometimes, and it can be incredibly disheartening.
16:55
And so how do we set up.
17:00
Ways to show value without it being a financial value
17:04
to keep you in the industry.
17:05
So, um, and we've had, I've had conversations with people
17:09
about this as well, right?
17:10
Like, uh, for those of us who work in commodities, we work for farmers, we
17:14
understand it's a 24 7 job and sometimes we've gotta work weekends and evenings
17:19
and we have to be super flexible.
17:22
That also could mean we get to work from home.
17:25
It also could mean that like there's other ways that we can
17:28
show value to our employees without it being a financial transaction.
17:34
I'm not sure I answered your question.
17:35
I went on my own tangent there, so feel free to poke me on that, but,
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Jesse Hirsh: and it, it kind of sets up a, a transitional question
17:43
because, you know, on the one
17:44
Jenn: hmm.
17:45
Jesse Hirsh: think of the solution, I think we
17:48
We need diverse leaders, we need leaders that kind of address and
17:52
articulate what you're addressing.
17:55
at the same time, it is kind of.
17:56
Cultural that we're, we're trying to kind of adjust the culture.
18:01
I think partly to go back to a conversation had in a few episodes
18:06
previously to return to the community centric culture that agriculture had in
18:12
terms of a healthy rural communities.
18:15
this allows me to kind of look at the agricultural adaptation council.
18:19
'cause I think part of what we're describing.
18:23
Is adaptation.
18:25
So to try to enable that transition, you know, we've been kind of
18:30
journey, both literally and conceptually, but h how did you
18:34
get connected with the A, a C?
18:36
Right.
18:37
Let, let's kind of, you know, make that link so we
18:39
Jenn: sure.
18:41
Jesse Hirsh: to kind of talking
18:43
that lie therein.
18:46
Jenn: Yeah, I,
18:47
Jesse Hirsh: Yes.
18:47
So, because
18:48
Jenn: because I worked in Ontario agriculture at a commodity organisation,
18:52
we all know the A, a C, right?
18:53
Because they did pro programme delivery for the provincial government.
18:57
So I'd known of it and had been on the periphery for a number of years.
19:02
Um, about three years ago now, I started working for myself, and through that.
19:09
Began doing some projects with Mel Dotto and Can Lead.
19:12
And Can lead was Mel Dotto at the time was the executive director of the
19:16
Agricultural Adaptation Council and Can Lead was the sister organisation
19:20
that the A a C had created and she, Mel came to me and said that she was
19:28
gonna be stepping down to go to Canali full-time and they needed an interim
19:31
executive director to help a a c through this period of transition their, their.
19:39
Reevaluating how they can better serve Ontario agriculture and would I be
19:44
willing to step in as the interim ed.
19:46
And so I went through that application process.
19:48
I believe there was a couple of us who, who applied for that position.
19:51
And um, thankfully I did get it.
19:54
And so I've been there since January in the interim ed position,
19:58
um, and helping them through this process of their strategic review.
20:03
Jesse Hirsh: let me ask you a very Jesse question.
20:07
What does adaptation mean to
20:09
Jenn: Here we go.
20:10
Yeah.
20:11
I think it means resilience.
20:13
I think it means the ability to
20:16
be
20:17
and change how you, um.
20:21
Respond to what's going on around you.
20:24
I, I think it means foresight.
20:26
Like how do, what do you see coming so that you can be nimble and you
20:29
can set yourself up for success?
20:31
Um, and it, and maybe nice full circle question, Jesse.
20:37
Um, it's that curiosity.
20:39
Let's be curious.
20:40
Let's look at what's happening.
20:42
What did we just talk about at the beginning of this podcast?
20:45
Yeah.
20:45
All that.
20:47
Maybe I'm the best fit for the transition after all.
20:50
Jesse Hirsh: you know, correct me if I'm wrong, part of the
20:52
Jenn: nicely done.
20:54
Jesse Hirsh: is
20:56
uh, uh, uh, hopes are high, authority is not necessarily there.
21:02
Right?
21:03
And.
21:04
further, I always understood, correct me if I'm wrong, that
21:10
a a C is kind of a meta organisation because your members are
21:16
organisations who have members.
21:20
Jenn: Yep.
21:21
Jesse Hirsh: it, it makes not only
21:24
delicate.
21:26
at the same time, it is a unique opportunity where a lot of the
21:30
groups who are normally doing their all thing kind of come together
21:35
and focus on the big picture.
21:37
So I'm, I'm curious how, how you, where you find opportunity in that
21:42
or, or where you find passion in that.
21:45
Because at the one hand, it, it, it can be overwhelming.
21:49
But on the other hand, to go back to my, you know, uh, prioritising
21:52
perspective, you can start seeing things that no one else in the sector can see.
21:58
Jenn: sure.
21:58
And.
21:59
Jesse Hirsh: I think.
22:00
Jenn: Where I, where I get really excited in doing this work with the
22:04
Adaptation Council is precisely because there is no lack of opportunity when
22:09
you start talking to our members.
22:10
'cause the members are really diverse.
22:12
So we have commodity, primary commodity organisations.
22:15
We have further processors.
22:17
We, you know, we cover a wide swath of the Agri AgriFood industry, so the
22:22
opportunities there are almost endless.
22:26
The challenge is as we review kind of where we wanna go
22:30
in that strategic direction,
22:33
how do we maintain, not authority, but that sense of enthusiasm and
22:39
walk people through this period of transition, because that.
22:43
Periods of transition are not comfortable for people.
22:45
They make people feel a bit shaky sometimes.
22:48
They don't wanna be part of it, so they're gonna, they're gonna
22:51
sort of exit along the sides.
22:52
But how do we maintain that core and keep us focused and
22:55
enthusiastic about the unknown?
22:58
We are heading, we are charter, chartering a new path here.
23:02
We don't know where we're gonna land.
23:04
But isn't this kind of the fun part of it?
23:06
Like, let's figure it out.
23:08
And that really.
23:11
I get excited,
23:14
and what,
23:15
Jesse Hirsh: what
23:15
Jenn: what is
23:16
Jesse Hirsh: is
23:16
Jenn: making me really love this job at the moment.
23:19
Jesse Hirsh: I were, you know, my job is to flatter, I think what
23:23
you did really quite effectively there is evoke model of leadership.
23:28
And, and I think you're evoking this new model of leadership of spontaneously
23:34
based on your own experience, based on your own perspective.
23:37
But I'll, I'll frame it and, and then I'll, I'll throw it to you as a question.
23:42
think, for example, there's a paradox to change in the agricultural.
23:48
Because on the one hand, when I look at the agricultural sector,
23:51
I see change like all the time.
23:53
Like lots of innovation, lots of new practises, lots
23:58
of, of constantly improving, improving yields, right?
24:01
Improving capacity, That change is only acceptable to people in the
24:07
sector if they feel that they are the one deciding it because, oh boy, do
24:12
they hate change when they feel that it's not them, the ones deciding it.
24:18
it creates a paradox for the leader because on the one hand, the leader
24:22
can't say, Hey everybody, let's do this.
24:26
Unless everybody wants to actually do that.
24:30
do you balance the need to embrace that change with the need to have
24:36
everyone feeling that that change is what they want in the sense of, uh, uh,
24:42
Jenn: Hmm.
24:42
Jesse Hirsh: and engagement?
24:43
A difficult
24:45
you know, that's how we roll here at the future
24:47
Jenn: Yeah, so my first response is nobody likes change.
24:51
This isn't just an agricultural issue, right?
24:56
Nobody likes change that's imposed on 'em, and we have a lot of experience with
25:00
that in the last six-ish years, right when the whole world started changing.
25:05
So many of us like it.
25:07
It creates instability, it creates a sense of insecurity.
25:10
Nobody loves change.
25:13
So we have to recognise that on the flip side, we are where we are and we
25:20
know that the course, like the previous way of existing, the previous way of
25:26
doing business might not be sustainable.
25:30
It might not be best serving the industry.
25:34
It might not be in our best interest.
25:36
And so while we may want to stay there.
25:39
Even if we don't do anything, we might not be able to stay there.
25:43
So instead of letting the future happen to us, why don't we create it
25:49
would be my response to that question.
25:51
Jesse Hirsh: A the, uh, question difficulty as high as possible.
25:55
'cause we don't want to be perceived as giving you any special
25:58
treatment here on the podcast.
26:00
What are the obstacles to that?
26:03
Because on the one
26:05
you describe it, it, it seems self-evident.
26:07
It seems quite reasonable, obviously it isn't.
26:11
Obviously this is a
26:12
Jenn: it's not, though.
26:13
Jesse Hirsh: Challenge Yeah.
26:15
Jenn: The challenge here is whether the challenge here is that human
26:18
emotion comes into play, so what I just described as a quite pragmatic
26:22
way of attack, attacking something,
26:25
not very often are we good at making pragmatic decisions.
26:30
Right.
26:30
Emotion comes into play all the time.
26:33
And so really what we have to balance is, you know, giving people the space.
26:40
This is language I use, this is not language that people around me
26:42
would use, but giving people the space to have that emotional moment.
26:46
Giving people the space, I call it, kick your feet outta your pyjamas.
26:50
Giving them the time to kick their feet outta their pyjamas.
26:52
And I don't mean that derogatory, like in an awful way.
26:55
It's just sometimes we gotta have that big cry.
26:59
And then we can, you know, look at things a little bit more objectively.
27:03
Um, and also like we have to hold space for one another.
27:08
Part of this is like, you know, we can't just do it and come across
27:12
as being like top down changing.
27:14
We have to go out and start talking about it.
27:16
We have to go out and start telling people, okay, these are the of
27:19
changes that we need to make.
27:22
If we can get people to provide input and ideas, if we can get people to start
27:29
talking about it really early on in the process, the more likelihood that the
27:34
change is gonna be sustainable, the more likelihood that it's gonna be implemented.
27:39
Coming in kind of with this top down approach, I've never
27:41
seen that actually quite work.
27:43
Jesse Hirsh: why, again, I I, I wanna keep repeating both for our
27:47
benefit, but for the listener's benefit that we are describing.
27:51
A, a model of leadership.
27:53
A vision of leadership, which is.
27:55
Innovative, which does incorporate elements that are not already in place.
28:00
So I, I, I, a question I probably should have asked earlier in the episode,
28:04
and it is something that I think about often when, when you and I chat, what
28:10
role has, has conflict resolution and conflict mitigation, both as a
28:14
skill, but also as a concept because.
28:19
I, I, it's clearly part of the way in which you approach these situations.
28:24
You may take it for granted, but I see it, I see it in
28:28
Jenn: oh.
28:29
Jesse Hirsh: curiosity and your confidence.
28:30
So you to tease it out.
28:33
Jenn: So I, I'll say that if you had met me like 15 years ago, it would be
28:38
a completely different person and we would not be having this conversation.
28:42
Um, but I had a job that was, that had a lot of conflict and
28:46
there was a woman at the time, I wish I could remember her name.
28:49
She was not in agriculture, and she's like, you know, they take, they
28:52
teach a whole course on understanding conflict and I'm like, sign me up.
28:58
Um, I subsequently got addicted and I do now have, I do now do,
29:04
uh, volunteer mediation and, um, it literally changed how I approach people.
29:11
It literally, it changed how I approach my work.
29:13
It, I don't wanna sound overly dramatic, but it definitely changed.
29:19
It, it changed how I manage, right?
29:21
It made me much more externally focused.
29:23
It made me much more process focused than outcome focused.
29:28
Um, one of the things that we get taught when we do I, um, transformative mediation
29:33
classes in particular, is that the people who are engaged in the process are the
29:38
ones who are responsible for the outcome.
29:39
You just have to make sure they stick to the process,
29:43
and that is now how I.
29:45
Jesse Hirsh: how
29:46
Jenn: I try and sometimes fail at managing people, managing
29:50
staff, managing issues, working.
29:53
Um, yeah, so it is, it is all about bringing people along in
29:58
the journey and getting curious.
30:01
The minute you start to feel like you're getting defensive or you think
30:04
the person across the table from you is a complete moron, ask a question.
30:10
Ask, like just, yeah, dig in.
30:14
I went on a huge tangent there.
30:16
Sorry.
30:16
You.
30:17
Jesse Hirsh: you, you hit that right outta the park because I, I think unequivocally
30:22
any aspiring leader today would.
30:26
dramatically increase their capacity, their empathy, and their
30:31
resilience by having the kind of skills that you just described.
30:35
Because we live in a world with a lot of conflict, and I think that conflict is
30:42
Jenn: Yeah.
30:43
Jesse Hirsh: So, to your
30:45
uh, within the manager's toolkit, the ability to deescalate, the
30:49
ability to resolve, the ability to make people feel like their
30:53
grievance has been addressed, ah.
30:55
I think that's indispensable and, and, uh, without, know, transitioning off the
31:00
subject, which one we do have to, 'cause we have other things to talk about.
31:04
Jenn: Yeah.
31:04
Jesse Hirsh: would you advise people to,
31:06
you know, short of going to take similar courses to kind of
31:09
operationalize that or integrate that into their practise of leadership?
31:15
Jenn: Wow.
31:16
That's a big question.
31:17
Like there's, so there's a few tricks I have.
31:19
One is lean in, lean into the questions, right?
31:22
Like just start asking questions because oftentimes I say this a lot like.
31:27
The TSM turning point for me was in the very first class when they're like,
31:31
you judge others on their behaviour, you judge yourself on your intent.
31:35
And so find out their intention because sometimes their
31:39
behaviour isn't their intention.
31:41
'cause we don't know how to translate ourselves properly.
31:45
Sometimes the words come out wrong, we say the wrong thing.
31:47
We're all a little bit awkward.
31:49
Um, so try to find intent.
31:51
What is their intention?
31:53
And try to find that common ground.
31:55
Because if, if our goal is to do X right, but we're both behaving
32:01
like idiots, you know, if we could focus on that goal or that intention
32:07
instead of our behaviour, we can, you know, we can find a path forward.
32:13
And I might, I'm gonna say something that's a little bit maybe.
32:17
I don't know.
32:18
I don't know how people will receive it.
32:19
So my intent is that it's helpful is that we have to remove our ego from this.
32:24
This isn't about being right, this isn't about having the answers.
32:28
This isn't about being viewed as the best boss ever.
32:32
Um, it goes back to doing what's best for the, for the organisations we work
32:36
in, for the industry that we work in.
32:38
And that has the, one of the biggest lessons I learned is that.
32:44
It is not about you.
32:45
At the end of the day, all we're doing is racing each other to retirement, right?
32:49
So, you know, it's not about us or our ego, it really isn't.
32:54
It's just about doing what's best for the space in which
32:56
we are working and operating.
32:58
Jesse Hirsh: the best leaders that I've encountered in a lifetime of studying
33:03
leadership either, uh, have the ability to separate themselves from their ego
33:09
and put their ego aside, or conversely, are so confident and secure in their ego.
33:16
That they're not threatened and, and they're able to, uh, effectively put
33:20
it aside even if they don't know how.
33:22
And recently I actually heard a, a technically inaccurate but interesting
33:27
analogy that, neurodiverse people hear their ego versus neurotypical people
33:34
are their ego, which I, I, I thought was
33:37
Jenn: Geez, that's too deep for me.
33:39
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
33:39
And, and, people and neurotypical people kind of push back and say,
33:45
it's not that clear cut, but it's an interesting thought experiment.
33:48
Now I
33:50
Jenn: Yeah, like I just, I just wanna, can I just say something because you
33:54
know, you said like, you know, you're either really confident or whatever.
33:57
It's just, I don't know what I am, I'm just okay with being wrong and
34:01
I'm okay with people thinking I'm a little bit odd and I'm okay with
34:05
the fact like I'm just a goofy girl.
34:07
Like at the end of the day, I'm just kind of goofy and quirky and I'm totally
34:11
cool if that's what people think of me.
34:13
So I don't know what that, I don't know that I'm super confident and I think
34:17
people just have to be cool with, people are gonna see you as they see you, and
34:22
you're still gonna go home to the people that love you, and you're still gonna get
34:25
to, you know, do the things that you love regardless of what people think of you.
34:30
So just, yeah, I don't know.
34:33
Jesse Hirsh: that, you know,
34:33
Jenn: I don't know if that's helpful.
34:34
Jesse Hirsh: of attention of easy distraction, it's
34:39
easy to forget what matters.
34:41
And, and that's
34:42
Jenn: Mm-hmm.
34:42
Jesse Hirsh: true when it comes to work, but it's
34:45
true when it comes to our sense of ourself.
34:47
Um, and, and that's.
34:49
of to transition, uh, part of why I kind of enjoy doing this podcast, right in
34:54
that I can sort of transparently be both excited about learning, excited about
35:00
talking to the guests we have on the show.
35:04
also inserting myself into the conversations as imperfect and flawed as
35:09
that is, and being totally comfortable being the crazy, uh, weirdo that I am.
35:15
I use that as a setup because you are ostensibly the first guest,
35:19
and this is our 20th episode, so it's kind of a milestone.
35:23
Jenn: Yeah.
35:24
Jesse Hirsh: you are the first guest
35:27
uh, to at least some of the episodes.
35:29
Most of the guests we've had on haven't listened to.
35:32
of the episodes, which, which is fair, I don't expect them to, now I get to
35:37
actually have a conversation of, so Jen, of the episodes you've listened over the
35:43
last 20 odd, that instantly come to mind.
35:47
And as you know, the game we play here on the Future Herd is.
35:50
Gut instinct, so it's whatever comes to mind first.
35:54
is there any guess that you were particularly excited about listening
35:59
to or a particular subject that you were like, yeah, right on.
36:04
Jenn: Yeah, there's a few, right?
36:05
Like Tyler McCann I listened to and I, I love listening.
36:08
I, I worked with him a long, long time ago, or adjacent to
36:11
him a long, long time ago, and.
36:13
So it's kind of like, oh, I know this guy, you know, it's just
36:15
nice to hear what he has to say.
36:16
And I watch what happens with Cap.
36:18
Um, Lori Nichol, she, that was my first time hearing her.
36:22
I've heard her name.
36:24
I've, I've worked with people who work with her, and so her,
36:29
her podcast was everything.
36:31
I thought it would be everything I hoped it would be.
36:33
It was kind of like.
36:35
You know, hearing someone who you thought would be really cool
36:37
and then they were, and you're like, oh my God, that was awesome.
36:41
Um, and there was a young lady you interviewed and unfortunately her
36:45
name is escaping me at the moment, but I believe she was with like,
36:49
Jordan
36:49
was her name, maybe Jordan.
36:53
Yeah.
36:55
Oh God, she is.
36:56
We gotta hang on to her.
36:57
She's a girl.
36:58
We've gotta like, keep in the industry.
37:00
Absolutely.
37:01
For sure.
37:02
And um.
37:04
Oh yeah.
37:05
There's been so many, like all of them have been really interesting.
37:08
Those are the three that kind of pop to mind like right away,
37:12
but for different reasons.
37:14
Jesse Hirsh: you know, part uh, of the cliche of agricultural
37:19
leaders is they wear many hats.
37:21
And
37:22
Jenn: Yeah.
37:22
Jesse Hirsh: is true of people in the policy world
37:25
that you know, the nature of Canada being the.
37:27
Kind of relatively small country we are is that you do get people who show up in
37:32
different circles with different roles.
37:34
You, you're doing that today in the episode, and that on the one hand, you're
37:38
a leader in the agricultural sector.
37:40
On the other hand, you're a leader within the Agricultural Adaptation Council,
37:45
which is a partner for the podcast.
37:48
But on the other
37:49
part of the production team of the podcast, so you're.
37:53
Jenn: It's true.
37:53
Jesse Hirsh: at this, the way I'm coming personality disorder.
37:58
Jenn: Yeah.
37:59
Jesse Hirsh: so I'm curious,
38:01
those three different angles, what have been some of the themes
38:04
or what are some of the topics?
38:06
What are some of the subjects that have come up that have circulated
38:10
in your head beyond just the
38:12
Jenn: Yeah.
38:15
So for me, the, the downside is that I'm gravitating to the stuff that
38:20
naturally perks my curiosity, which is like the younger people coming up
38:26
that I wanna identify and be like, I wanna know that I know them, or I wanna
38:29
know how to be able to connect them.
38:30
So when someone tells me they need someone, I can be like, I got you right.
38:34
I'm gonna hook you up.
38:35
Um, but through the other lens, like, and again, full circle coming back
38:39
to like my food in, um, international development stuff around food
38:44
security and food distribution.
38:47
And so when we talk about our food systems, I mean, you've in, you've
38:51
interviewed some pretty interesting people at a BC that want I wish I was better at.
38:55
Names Jesse.
38:56
This is a horrible.
38:56
The
38:57
podcast.
38:58
Thank you, Jessica.
39:00
Jesse Hirsh: you.
39:01
Jenn: and, you know, coupling her interview with Lori Nichol is a really
39:05
interest, like one after the other.
39:07
That's a pretty cool way to spend two hours of your day if you're
39:11
wanna geek out on food security and how, and, and where that plays into.
39:15
And then when we look at it through the lens of where we're headed, um, and
39:20
what's going on in the world today, and.
39:24
You know, how we are going to, from my perspective, get really, um,
39:31
uh, creative around how we solve some of the big problems that are facing us.
39:36
You know, guys like Camden Lawrence and bringing in some more of that
39:40
indigenous knowledge and how we support local food production.
39:45
Um, that's a really cool podcast too.
39:49
So.
39:50
I really, you know, I am biassed.
39:52
You, you've declared our bias already.
39:54
I think we've had a, I think we've been pretty good at curating a very interesting
40:01
set of podcasts for people to listen to.
40:04
Um, that I hope get people really thinking outside the box, right?
40:09
Jesse Hirsh: know, to do our, our, uh, what's the industry flag
40:13
I'm looking for to do our promo?
40:15
Uh, part of what we're trying to do with the
40:19
is take the kind of one-on-one to.
40:22
To the collaborative level, to the synthesis level, to
40:25
Jenn: Yeah.
40:26
Jesse Hirsh: think of as
40:27
Jenn: Yeah.
40:28
Jesse Hirsh: a whole bunch of
40:30
of jamming together.
40:31
So I tell, tell listeners about the panel, uh, that we're organising and
40:37
kind of what you want to get out of it.
40:39
Jenn: Sure.
40:39
So we are organising a panel with Lori and Tyler and Camden, and
40:45
what I really wanna dig into is,
40:48
you know, we're, we're talking about a national food security
40:51
strategy, food sovereignty work.
40:54
Um, and I really wanna dig into what that means.
40:57
Like, what does it mean for them to have a resilient food system in Canada?
41:02
What does it look like?
41:05
Because I know we talk about stuff a lot.
41:07
We're super good at talking about stuff, but if we're gonna high five
41:10
ourselves in two years, because we, we hit the ball outta the ballpark,
41:15
what does it actually look like?
41:16
What did we accomplish and what do they wish people knew?
41:20
Like what's about some of the speed bumps that are in their way to
41:27
getting us to where we need to be, to be food sovereign or food secure,
41:32
you know?
41:33
Yeah, that's what I really wanna dig into.
41:36
Jesse Hirsh: me away in both the, the conversation with Lori and,
41:40
and the one with Neil from the Toronto Daily Bread food Bank they
41:44
take their perspective for granted.
41:46
Like they see the problem.
41:48
In a way, I think
41:48
Jenn: Yeah,
41:49
Jesse Hirsh: don't.
41:50
But they
41:50
Jenn: sure.
41:52
Jesse Hirsh: in a way a lot of
41:54
So I think that's the power in, in
41:56
Jenn: Yeah.
41:56
Jesse Hirsh: folks together and kind of
42:00
I, I'm, you know, let, let's give the listeners a kind of a glimpse
42:04
behind the scenes or a procedural side and, and here, you know, this
42:08
is more a speculative than realistic 'cause we're talking about the future.
42:13
But how, how will you advocate, or how will you argue that the broader
42:20
agricul, the broader a, uh, adaptation council should make use of the knowledge
42:28
and material that we're generating?
42:30
Right.
42:30
Because on the one hand, we're bringing these people together, we're
42:34
creating all these conversations.
42:36
that's, you know, there's only so much that you and I can do on another level.
42:40
It's for the members and for the
42:41
Jenn: Sure.
42:42
Jesse Hirsh: to kind of take further.
42:43
So how you'd frame it.
42:46
Jenn: I.
42:46
don't know if I'm gonna, you know, directly answer your question, but I'm
42:49
gonna tell you kind of my wishlist, right?
42:51
I hope that what we're doing through this podcast is introducing listeners to people
42:56
in agriculture that they should talk to.
42:58
So when they're having, when they're having questions or when
43:03
they wanna do consultations or when they wanna get information.
43:07
As much as agriculture's kind of small and people know each other, I
43:11
would love to give them a way into a conversation so that they could,
43:15
you know, call up, uh, Steph Towers.
43:18
We did an interview with her, a podcast with her, I believe, right?
43:20
And say, Hey, I heard you on this podcast talking about x. I
43:25
wanna talk some more about that.
43:27
I really hope that people are able to, um.
43:32
Use some of what they're hearing and get curious about it, and maybe sit on
43:36
it for a bit and help it maybe reframe how they're thinking about what's going
43:41
on in the world or how they should be engaging with their politicians or their
43:46
commodity organisations or whatever.
43:49
Right?
43:50
So I hope it expand.
43:52
I hope our podcasts are both making introductions.
43:56
Actually making introductions both to people and to new ways of thinking
44:00
or new ideas or new perspectives.
44:03
That's what I hope.
44:04
Jesse Hirsh: would sort of, uh, uh, tag onto that.
44:08
Um, and, and this is more, uh, the blue sky part of every episode, uh, that
44:15
I'd like to have in the future herd.
44:18
What do you think?
44:19
What, what, where, where are the gaps?
44:21
What do you think is missing?
44:22
And, and I'm asking this on an organisational level because the
44:26
last question really was kind of the a, a c question, right?
44:30
Like, what can the A a C do and what is, you know, within your role
44:33
in the A, a C. But let's take a
44:36
Jenn: Mm-hmm.
44:37
Jesse Hirsh: bigger, right?
44:39
What is the sector missing?
44:42
Either organizationally, intellectually, or even individually?
44:46
'cause I kind of like the vision you're describing that the Future herd
44:50
is kind of a talent scouting process where we're trying to get people on
44:56
a stage so that other people can see them on the stage and go, yeah, I
45:00
like that story, or I like that play.
45:04
But we can't do that alone.
45:06
What, what, what other pieces in the sector could, could you imagine to
45:11
really leadership that we've been articulating and evoking today?
45:16
Jenn: Um,
45:18
God, that's a good question.
45:20
Jesse Hirsh: and you may balling this, but it's kind
45:23
Jenn: No.
45:24
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
45:24
Jenn: Yeah.
45:26
I think, I think what, what I keep coming back to, um.
45:33
What does it look like?
45:35
So we talk about the need for more collaboration.
45:37
We talk about the need for, you know, bringing everyone together.
45:41
And, and, and we do that, like we bring them together into a room and
45:44
the group, the industry's very good at facilitation and having group meetings.
45:51
But what, where's the why?
45:54
So why, why are we doing it and what does it, what does collaboration mean?
45:59
Like, so the question I asked, I just had this conversation with somebody
46:03
the other day, like, to what end?
46:05
So we're gonna send out a survey, we're gonna ask people for
46:08
their opinions, but to what end?
46:11
So I, I think sometimes we have to challenge ourselves.
46:15
We have done this in, in agriculture.
46:17
We get around the table, we have discussions with our minister
46:20
about the next policy framework.
46:22
But to what end?
46:24
Like where, where is that going and how is that gonna change
46:27
our next policy framework?
46:29
Where, where are we seeing, like how are we gonna do different,
46:33
how are we gonna move the needle and how do we know we've done it?
46:37
Um, that yeah, that would be my, I really, I'm really curious to, to what end.
46:44
Jesse Hirsh: how do we make sure that the podcast n not only kind of reinforces the
46:50
larger a, a c process in terms of enabling the sector, you've kind of created a
46:56
challenge that I want us to continue to focus on, which is more than just this new
47:02
Jenn: Hmm.
47:02
Jesse Hirsh: of leadership, it's the
47:05
scouting.
47:06
Right that I almost felt that you were creating, uh, not just an opportunity,
47:11
but a responsibility for us to find that future leadership, to engage that
47:16
future leadership, to create, in my view, a stage for that future leadership.
47:22
You know, as we wrap up this conversation, I'm, I'm curious to hear your
47:25
thoughts on how we could best do that.
47:28
Jenn: Yeah.
47:28
I don't know.
47:31
That's my short answer.
47:32
I don't know.
47:34
I think that there, there's some stuff that we're doing alongside the podcast
47:39
that is helpful, like the comments that you've created, which is a website where
47:42
people can go in and kind of, you know, chat amongst themselves on certain topics.
47:48
I think that's helpful.
47:50
I think, um.
47:52
That's the first thing that comes to mind.
47:54
But I think we gotta put a pin in this.
47:56
Like I think this is something that we need to come back to, to really
47:58
be intentional to make sure that, you know, we're not just talking about
48:03
it, that we can actually act on it.
48:06
Jesse Hirsh: kind of speaks to another thing that I wanted to bring
48:08
up in our conversation today, which we are doing in this episode for
48:12
the first time, is to circle back.
48:15
there is a tendency in podcasts, there is a tendency in kind of internet
48:20
media that you don't look back.
48:22
That you just keep creating episodes and you keep going on to the next subject and
48:28
versus, I think the power of
48:31
herd is in connecting to past episodes, is in revisiting past subjects.
48:37
You know, for example, we're doing it now in food security
48:41
and at some point we'll probably
48:42
Jenn: Yep.
48:43
Jesse Hirsh: a different subject.
48:44
But we
48:45
back to food security at some point in the future and go, what progress have we made?
48:51
What have we learned?
48:52
I, I, I'm curious to kind of have you, uh, riff off that, respond on
48:56
that, but in particular, I'm trying to get you to think about ways in
48:59
which we can formalise it, either by you and me coming back every 10 or
49:04
Jenn: Mm.
49:05
Jesse Hirsh: or, the larger point of engaging people and having
49:09
other people help us with this process of, of circling back.
49:14
Jenn: I love this idea.
49:15
Circling back, I don't know if it was our actual intent when we started,
49:19
but I love the fact that this is where we've landed and I love that it's,
49:22
you know, the theme of continuous improvement, continuous learning, right?
49:28
I would love to hear from the listeners, are we, are we hitting the mark?
49:32
Are we giving you content that is, you know, landing with
49:36
you and how is it landing?
49:38
Because I could have this great vision that I hope it.
49:40
You know, generates new ideas and get you thinking in different perspective.
49:43
But is it, I don't know.
49:45
Um, and maybe that's where we, you know, we request people's feedback
49:50
and I think it would be, you know, as we bring together Camden and Lori and.
49:57
Tyler for this panel discussion.
50:00
Maybe that's a question we ask them as well.
50:02
Like, how do you think this is landing?
50:04
Where do you, how do you think this is working as a way for
50:06
us to be continually improving?
50:09
if we let people know that we are serious about feedback, we want it, then
50:16
they'll find a way to give it to us.
50:18
I hope.
50:19
My challenge to our listeners.
50:22
Jesse Hirsh: we close, uh, you know, the last question I always
50:25
throw to people is a shout out.
50:27
Um, but in this case the, uh, almost last question, I, I'm also
50:32
gonna have you do a shout out.
50:34
'cause I, I'm a big believer in transparency in media production.
50:39
That was kind of why I wanted to have you on the
50:41
Jenn: Sure.
50:42
Jesse Hirsh: so that people knew who else
50:44
uh, uh, when they hate.
50:46
Particular episodes or who else to celebrate, uh, when they
50:50
think that what we're doing is
50:53
Uh, do you mind giving a shout out to the other person, uh,
50:56
who is an integral part of our production process, but has been too
51:00
Jenn: Yeah,
51:01
Jesse Hirsh: accept my invitation to
51:03
Jenn: Mr. Peter Catona is sitting in the background every
51:07
Monday morning with us Yes.
51:09
And not appearing on the podcast, so he deserves a shout out.
51:12
Absolutely.
51:13
He's with the Agricultural Adaptation Council.
51:16
Jesse Hirsh: credit for the the
51:17
brand, uh, the 'cause it was very much
51:21
Jenn: Yes.
51:23
Jesse Hirsh: of design.
51:25
So a big shout out, uh, to Peter
51:28
Jenn: Yeah.
51:29
Jesse Hirsh: I, I, do like to ask
51:30
is there anything, uh, that we did not, uh, talk about today that you
51:34
want to get into before we close?
51:37
Jenn: Yeah, we covered a wide round of topics.
51:40
I think we are good for now.
51:41
Thank you.
51:43
Jesse Hirsh: uh, who are the leaders you look up to?
51:46
Who are the people who inspire you that either we should be booking as a
51:52
or that we should be checking out in the world of media and ideas?
51:58
Jenn: So, yeah, there's a lot then some of them I've already given you
52:03
as podcast hosts, so we will let people just hear them as they come up.
52:06
But I think there's people who I have watched who I, you know, aspire to
52:10
be like Dr. Deb Stark out of Ontario.
52:13
She's awesome.
52:15
Um, Mike McMorris, who is re sort of retired at the moment, was a huge
52:20
mentor of mine and, um, worked with.
52:23
Be Farmers of Ontario and livestock research innovation.
52:27
Um, oh gosh.
52:29
I don't wanna name too many because I know I'm forgetting people, but you
52:32
know, my board members who were through all iterations, who provided great
52:38
counsel and great leadership, and an incredibly soft place to land when
52:42
things went sideways to all of them, I think they deserve a round of applause.
52:48
Jesse Hirsh: while it does have the risk of getting too far into the weeds,
52:51
perhaps a future panel, uh, for the show.
52:55
Could be, uh, uh, the nature of boards, what makes a good board member, how to
53:00
think about board governance in general.
53:03
it is one of those things that's kind of neglected that people don't think about,
53:07
Jenn: Yeah.
53:08
Jesse Hirsh: a keystone sector, which, you know, now that we're in
53:14
the kind of closing, uh, I, I did have a thought at one point that
53:17
I'll throw at you to see, uh, as a joke, uh, to, to see what you think.
53:21
You know, often in leadership we like to use acronyms like CEO or ed.
53:28
But then I thought you're an IED, an improvised explosive device.
53:34
Well, what an incendiary leadership position to have.
53:39
again,
53:40
Jenn: Perfect.
53:42
Jesse Hirsh: but it does speak to
53:43
Jenn: Yes.
53:44
Jesse Hirsh: uh, of the position.
53:46
Thanks, Jen, a fantastic episode and we'll have you back on the episode.
53:52
Real soon now with the panel,
53:54
Jenn: Thanks so much, Jessie.
53:56
It was a good conversation.
53:56
I appreciate it.
54:02
Jesse Hirsh: I certainly intend to have Jen on the podcast,
54:06
uh, as frequently as possible.
54:08
I think today's conversation, uh, illustrated, uh, the unique
54:13
perspective she brings, but also the.
54:16
Connections that I think we'll be starting to take advantage
54:20
of in the episodes to come.
54:22
And of course, uh, we will be having the panel that we've mentioned, uh, shortly.
54:28
Uh, if you wanna dive deeper into today's discussion.
54:31
But of course, all the episodes that we've done on the future
54:35
herd head over to our website.
54:38
The future herd.ca where we have show notes, uh, links, knowledge
54:43
articles, threads that connect to all the different episodes we've done.
54:48
This is our 20th and we have built quite the knowledge base.
54:53
In fact, the platform that I've been building around the podcast has both
54:58
been a lot of fun to build, but is an.
55:01
Interesting piece of software that I suspect we'll be talking
55:05
about more, uh, in the future.
55:08
Uh, of course you can download our, our elder episodes via
55:13
your favourite podcast network.
55:16
You can check us out on YouTube.
55:19
Um.
55:20
Yeah, if you have any feedback, send us an email, uh, tweet us.
55:25
Uh, whatever social media of choice.
55:29
You could tell everybody why you think the future herd is
55:32
a great podcast or terrible.
55:35
Uh, but until next time, I'm Jesse Hirsch and this has been the Future Herd.