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Holding On to Faith in the Midst of Suffering with Aubrey Sampson · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast with Amy Wicks, your wholehearted life and business coach.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: You should know this podcast will inspire you to grow in self-awareness, be passionate about your faith, and get clear on your calling.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you are new here, then welcome to the community of multi-passionate women who love to go deep on topics like faith, Enneagram, relationships, leadership, and community.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: This conversation might provide the step you need to make the change you desire.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get started.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm getting to share this conversation I had with a dear friend of the podcast, Aubrey Sampson.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: You may have remembered a conversation with her quite a long time ago.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this time she is inviting us to even a deeper conversation about lament and about her own Dark Knight of the Soul.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Aubrey's latest book, What We Find in the Dark, Lost Hope, and God's Presence in Grief explores what it means to hold on to faith when everything feels like it's unraveling.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, Aubrey's words have given me language for my own season of darkness in the past year.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've been so grateful for her work on a personal level.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I'm really grateful for what she's going to offer you today.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Aubrey willingly shared a little bit more vulnerably about the recent loss of her dad and how grief has shaped her faith and why lament is such a crucial part of the spiritual journey.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you find yourself in a season where hope is hard to grasp, I know you will be ministered to by these words.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Also, if you're looking for a guide by the side as you navigate your own dark night of the soul or a really difficult season, or maybe you're just looking for clarity in the next right step, you don't have to navigate that road alone.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's fairly simple to book a clarity call with me.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to walk this road together and discern the next right step for you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you can find the link to book with me in the show notes.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's get right to this conversation with Aubrey Sampson.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's so fun to talk again.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Aubrey, I've really been excited about talking about this book in particular as you started sharing bits and pieces about it last year because you because nowadays, one, we're encouraged as authors to, or even any, you know, online people, we're encouraged to talk about what it is that we're working on all along the way.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we can hear from people, we can build some interest, but we can have real conversations.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we're writing to real problems.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I, yeah, it was just a post that I came across at late summer, early fall.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, oh, this, this is what I am going through.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it essentially was a dark night of the soul.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And while I've heard of the dark night or, you know, going through these, you know, valleys and pruning and all of the different phrases that are out there in Christian circles.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I felt like you articulated something that was you articulated exactly where I was in that moment.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so anyway, I I've been looking forward to reading the book and going through it.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I got a Galley version, but I want it in my hands.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like to read with it in my hands 100% to underline and to uh because it did thrust me into a study for myself.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: What is the dark night of the soul?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And how does that compare to depression?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many different elements here that I was sifting because I was going, it was years of grief and loss, and I knew there was mourning involved, but it was deeper and it wasn't just depression.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, I'm prefacing all of that going, I I am so thrilled and honored to have this conversation.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So just tell us a little bit.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a lot to tell us, but what prompted to go ahead and pin these words and put it in a book form?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because this isn't an easy task to talk about this.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, it's definitely not an easy task.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, Amy, thanks for having me.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored to give you a lot of work.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I appreciate chatting with you.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I'll explain just a super quick definition of the dark night of the soul, and kind of work my way into why.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um perfect.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the dark night of the soul, and I'm so glad you said this, it is actually different.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: We use it kind of generally in our vernacular to mean what you just said depression, a hard season, a wilderness season.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the dark night of the soul is actually something specific.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you might be in a dark season, you might be in a wilderness season, you might be in a um a season of grief or loss.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: You also might not be.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what's a little bit complicated about the dark night, but it the dark night um is better translated from the original Spanish, the obscure night of the soul, meaning in a dark night of the soul, you cannot sense God's presence, and you cannot get a sense of what God is up to.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think about it as a season of spiritual difficult to seeness.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so a dark night of the soul, again, it might overlap with some of these really hard things.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It also might not.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: It might just be like suddenly you're like, wait, I, Lord, I I can't, I don't know what you're doing.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where you're leading.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not hearing from you, I'm not sensing your presence with me.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the crazy thing about a dark night of the soul is that it can happen to the most spiritually mature people, but you kind of feel like you're spiritually unraveling or spiritually like dematuring, immaturing.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it's actually this kind of very strange anecdote anecdotal experience that God does in the life of the believer.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And part of it is like, you don't choose it, you don't know what's gonna come.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, in my book, I talk about like nightfalls, God just does it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the crazy thing that's so hard for us to wrap our minds around, Amy, is that um the there are two people who coined the phrase, Saint John of the Cross and Saint Teresa of Avala, 16th century uh uh nun and friar.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um they uh or prioress and prior friar, I should say.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um they both said it was so loving.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: The pride of the soul, God removing his presence is a loving act because it actually makes the heart yearn more for God and God alone and not the other things that we go to for self-soothing, numbing, etc.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's so true, dang it.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's hard to wrap your mind around because it hurts.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and you have to be honest about that.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is dark, it is painful, it is confusing, it does cause spiritual wrestling, and that doesn't feel loving, but there is something that God is doing in it that actually is loving.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's whoo, that's complicated.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is serious.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: That makes you go, oh God, you're bigger than you're bigger, you're big.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're bigger than my Western mindset, you're bigger than my prosperity.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's my concept of abundance, and all of the things that we'd really rather not get shaken.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, personally, I don't want to, I wasn't looking for this, I was just fine.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Things were hard enough.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't did I really need this too, and I'm afraid I did.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know, I know, I know.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so why I wrote it, I so two years ago, um, my very best friend, partner in ministry, not everyone likes this phrase, but we use this phrase, you write or die.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: The the my person, the girl I talk to every single day, either on text or Marco Polo or Voxer or the phone or in person, like my girl.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she died of breast cancer.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I knew she was uh in her final days, um, but uh that was like she went on hospice and died a week later.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we were still praying.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was a two-year two-year cancel.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, uh two-year battle with cancer, still praying for a miracle for eradication, for God to heal.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: For I mean, and I mean, I did all the crazy things.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I marched around the hospital when she was getting some chemo and some other things, she had to have a lot of procedures done.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm marching around the hospital like praying over it.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm driving around the hospital praying.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm declaring, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting like spiritual.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and God didn't heal her.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so losing her was was, and I've had very recent loss that has been very, very painful and unexpected, but losing Jen um was incredibly difficult because I also lost a sense of God's comfort.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when I needed God most, God did not seem to be showing up.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know now he was showing up, but it was just not what I expected it to be.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, I was thrust into a dark night of the soul without even realizing it on top of deep, deep grief.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I honestly wrote this book because I couldn't sleep.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend say to me, You need to be writing when you can't sleep, get up and write.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was almost this prophetic word over me.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I just literally would get up in the middle of the night because I'm tossing and turning in my grief and just start writing everything.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't necessarily that I thought a book was coming here.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was just that, like, my typing is me wrestling with God, my typing is me praying, my typing is me trying to make sense of nonsense.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually that turned into, you know, the book, What We Find in the Dark.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: But that's sort of the why I began to write about this topic.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, these losses are inevitable.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as we hit our decade of life, it becomes real and it becomes frequent.
• 10:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it looks like some things that are very seen and out in the open where we can have a funeral.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a lot of it's internal, it's chronic.
• 10:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's no funeral, there's no marker to explain what you're going through.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I would dare say this is going to be common and maybe even more common as there does seem to be some sifting on the earth with believers in particular.
• 11:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think we need to decide.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And are we going to be lukewarm?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or are we really going to be wholehearted?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are we all in?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is Jesus our everything, or is that just a lip service?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and all of that sounds a little bit uh maybe harsh.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I and I heavy handed or something.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Heavy handed, yes, yes.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: But Aubrey, I I think, I think this is so important to frame because I don't know that.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at least for me, I I didn't realize I had been going through a dark night of the soul until I was almost starting to get out of it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So for you, what was the indicator?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you go?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think I know what this is, or or can we even or until we're about to see the light, or maybe some light is finally poking through.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I will say, um I love that question because I I kept thinking, light is gonna dawn.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah you know, like daybreak's coming.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like right, it's just around the corner.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what I what I began to find is it was sort of that slow.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I do write about this in the book.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know how in the photographers call it the blue hour.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that time just before the sun is actually golden.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little blue, it's a little bit dawn is coming, but not quite there.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I found that healing in the dark night of the soul is a little more like that, where gradually there's like a little light poking through.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh God, I I see that you came towards me with love there.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh God, I I realize faith is not about a feeling I get from you.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's about following you.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like you just said, that sifting.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh God, I I I mean, there was honestly, Amy, there was a season when I'm a teaching pastor.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: There was a season when I was like, I can't read, I cannot read the Bible.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would literally, I have a space in my room.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of my sacred time with Jesus, where I have my Bible, I've got my journal, I've got my fireplace.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's very ideal.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um love it.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I would walk by my Bible and I would be like, oh no, I can't, I I'm not, I can't open you, not today.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just felt too vulnerable because I was so disappointed in God and by God.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it even things like God going, can you can you read a poem?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Can you read a liturgy?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Can you read, can you read one psalm?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just do one psalm together today, OBS.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to write a whole sermon.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: What if we're just, what if you're just reading the the book of prayer that's full of emotions that has comforted Christians throughout history?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: What if you just read one of those?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, just like slowly, slowly, slowly, I began to sense God um kind of calling me back to myself, calling me back to Him.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it wasn't that I it's not like I finally like, oh, I got the dark night, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I won it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that it was just time.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And like, and wrestling, like, I mean, I was like, I am not gonna let you go, God, unless you bless me.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm Jacob.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I will not, we're wrestling to hear, God.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I was very unwilling to walk away, but I was very willing to say all the hard things I needed to say, which was often just, where are you?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel you, where are you?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't hear you, where are you?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know you.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um what are you doing?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say, Amy, like you said, it honestly, honestly, and I mean this about two weeks ago, you and I are recording now, and it's almost Galantine's Day.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about we both have on pink.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: About two, three weeks ago, I was recording the audiobook for What We Find in the Dark at the studio at uh Tyndale Publishers.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reading my own words from two years earlier, uh, you know, year earlier.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, I am not in that place anymore.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I am not as dark as I was then.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, God.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we we have moved into a new season now.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can sense you again, I can hear from you again.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love reading your word again.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it took a couple years, but it was a little bit like what you're saying.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: It it's almost the looking back that has made me go, oh, okay, we're in a new season now.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully it's a long time or never that I have to go through that again.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, Aubrey, I found myself going, Lord, could this be it?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can we can because I I see even what you're saying here.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: We talked a little bit about that at the beginning of the year on the podcast, but how to find rhythms to keep while even in a dark night or working through grief and loss.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that maybe one of the purposes that a dark night serves for our soul is at least for me, I could no longer experience God or find him in the familiar ways.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: It it was, you know, we had this way, just like with a a close friend or a marriage partner, other good relationships, you connect in certain ways.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it it was suddenly, I was like, that that isn't doing it anymore.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I I couldn't go dive deep into Jeremiah.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh no, like there, there is none of that right now.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it forced new pathways of connection.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if to your point, going back to liturgy, and I oh man, liturgy was so anchoring to even get me to just go in that like, okay, if I can pray this prayer, then I can feed a psalm.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if I could read a psalm, then I can talk to God.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it was those little baby steps of reorienting my heart around what does that connection look like?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And will I still show up, even if I feel like he's not showing up?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was huge for me.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, I I am going to choose not to be a flight risk.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I will stay, I will show up, and I will just be like, I okay, God, I'm here and I'm waiting.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I'm demanding, and sometimes I'm showing up like I'm mad that I'm showing up, but I can't help myself.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I just felt like God, like I have to believe you are gonna come forth here, you know, and you're gonna show me your love here.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just could I just like couldn't let go.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the grace of God, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it, it is you're able to hold on to God like an anchor when you're like still drowning, you know.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I say maybe hanging on by a thread, but at least it's a thread.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, oh, there's so many different directions I want to go with this.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I what I'd love to tie part of this conversation into is the season of Lint that as we're talking about, we're about to enter, and as we share this conversation, we're in the midst of.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I was able to have a beautiful conversation with um Sally Breedlove and Willa Kane.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: They are, they've created these eighth-day prayers and they shared about the Lint and Easter tide, the rhythm of the church calendar.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: So beautiful.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's it really, I think if we could get some uplint in a word, it is about waiting, yeah, right.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, very similar to Advent.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's about reflection and maybe even really wrestling, wrestling with our sin, wrestling with our need for a savior, wrestling with our struggles that maybe year after year we're like, wow, okay, I'm have not totally conquered that.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I am still not without sin.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and it also be, you know, might be a season that is, you know, has doubt and very similar to that dark night.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I would just love for you to tie in some of that, like the gift of acknowledging our doubts while also still maybe leaving room for hope or without totally losing it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you know, when I when I read the witness of the scripture, I am so encouraged to know that so often it is, it's a book, of course, filled with people of faith, but mostly it's about God's faithfulness to people of doubt.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's good.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is so, so um one, it's so loving of God that um he allows us frail humans to express our doubts and our heartache and our anger and ugliness towards him and isn't afraid of that, you know.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I I also think it is it's part of what it means to be a practicing Christian and has been throughout history and throughout ecumenical expressions of the Christian Orthodox faith.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: That we, part of our faith is suffering, it is wilderness, it is darkness, and it is clinging to God in that and holding on to the future promises of that great one day when all tears will be wiped away.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if we ignore the Good Friday to use our lens, right?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: If we ignore the suffering of the cross, if we ignore the darkness of the world, if we ignore the heartache and grief we feel, then then we are being inauthentic to what it actually means to be a human in need of God.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think we're missing out on like a deeper worship of God.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I'm willing to admit to my brothers and sisters and to the Lord, I'm hurting, I'm sad, I'm grieved, I can't see the way forward in my own life, or even when I look at the pain or the world around me, it's too much, God.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: If in that I can see God's love breaking through, God's kingdom coming, deposits of God's goodness, God's faithfulness, and lift my hands in praise.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how much deeper is that worship?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, okay, God, it whoo, in spite of what I can see, my spiritual eyes are telling me that you are doing a new thing and that one day, one day, I'm gonna get to experience your wholeness in full.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I all I, you know, I always think about it like a marriage too.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I for your listeners who are married or maybe just have had a long term relationship.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've been married to my husband, Kevin, for um 24 years.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Feels like a long time when I say that out loud.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um if I were to tell you or your listeners in 24 years, Kevin.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I have never had a fight.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just it's been so delightful all the time.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: We just all we just adore each other and we we just adore each other and we just you know compliment each other.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: We you know, you'd know either she's a liar or that's a really shallow relationship.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what kind of marriage do you have anyway?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not a completely inauthentic.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's inauthentic.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the same is true for our marriage.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: The Bible uses that term with God, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: That um our marriage with God is no different.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like it means a long-term covenant relationship.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna have the mountains and the valleys, we're gonna have the delight and the beauty and the affection, and we're gonna have the really, really hard days where we're working through really, really hard things.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And as we know in long-term relationships, the reward is the fight and like staying connected and getting more intimate as you work through it, how much more so with the love of our souls.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: There is a passage, and I'm I don't know why this is coming to my mind, but specifically in Ephesians 6, after it talks about the full armor of God.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the other day, as I was reading it or hearing it, the the part that goes, and after you have fought the fight, right?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And everything you can.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, like, yes, and to like, and you will still, after you're still standing after the fight.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that stood out to me in a new way of like, oh, this dark night has been also coupled, been coupled with a lot of spiritual warfare.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And just feeling that invitation to God does equip you, he will help you, and he equips you to stand.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: He is, you know, if if he is the firm foundation.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that I'm just sharing here openly, but after this dark night, I don't know if I could have withstood the next several months.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because I I don't know if I would have been as anchored firmly or as girded up and equipped to be able to handle it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do, I do think there's some resilience muscles spiritually.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're exactly right.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'll just I'll just share with your listeners.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I lost my dad recently and mentioned that I had another recent loss.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: My dad died the same day my best friend died two years ago.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just couldn't believe that.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty numb at the moment and I'm processing it all.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sort of.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm avoiding processing it all.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get there.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when it couples with a book launch, I'm yeah, okay, Lord, you know.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord knows I'll I'll get there.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I do, I mean, it's strange.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I do have a sense of, of course, deep grief, loss, sadness, disappointment, and some resilience I didn't have two years ago.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just aware of that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And for a minute, I was tempted to go, why am I not constantly sobbing in the shower?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's wrong with me?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Am I and then I I finally started reframing it a little bit.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, like maybe you've got a little more strength than you did two years ago.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean you're not grieving, it doesn't mean you're not sad, it doesn't mean the loss isn't real.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean you're sugarcoating it either.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: It just means you like you've done this and you know how to like let grief do its work without having to like manufacture something that isn't authentic.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what you're talking about.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: There is some that do everything you can to stand, keep on standing.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's some resilience that gets built.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Battling that spiritual warfare.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think a lot of that goes with some like the psalm and I know an Isaiah and Jeremiah talks about being planted by streams of water.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think when it's dark or when it's dry, right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Wilderness, you have to seek out nourishment or when you're going through a winter, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've just been going through winter, we're about to usher in spring, and in those dormant seasons when there is no life.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it's pruning or wilderness or the dark night, you you have to get nourishment and sustenance from somewhere.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you are a if you are staying planted by streams of living water, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, yeah, then you will get that nourishment and the roots will grow deeper and expand to get what it needs.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you will be, you'll be more resilient, you'll be able to withstand.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I would testify to the same thing where my January slash February has mirrored a lot of what happened in June and July of last year.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was it's different.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I like I feel that sense.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I still, and I'm so grateful because I compare where I knew God was with me, but I couldn't feel him.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and this time I'm like, I could feel God's presence.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have to search for so hard for him.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I'm grateful because there was a little bit of a lightness and an ease in the hard times where to your point, it's like, okay, I'm not crying every day.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a good sign.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the bar's so low.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, but you're right.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and to be able to, I mean, you know, it is strange how sometimes life and loss do mirror each other like that.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it is interesting.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to be able to reflect on, okay, it is a little different now.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it is a little not that it's not significant, but like I'm a little more strong, capable, able, you know, than I than I was.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, and that, and I'm with you, like that gift, I have sensed God comforting me and caring me with the loss of my dad in a way that I didn't when Jen died.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like so grateful.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, thank you, Lord.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, thank you, Lord.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I get you like walking through that too.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious in that that frame of thinking, when you didn't feel God's presence or it felt lost in losing Jen, was there anything that still helped you go, okay, there's a there's a sign here, there's a like he he's not gone.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: He just doesn't feel the same.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like help a friend who's maybe in that same season at to to know what to look for.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a psychiatrist named Dr.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Gerald May who writes a lot about the dark night of the soul.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he he writes about it and he writes about depression too.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But he does talk about how it's not our it's not it, it's it's not God, it's our images or our sense of God that is changing in the dark night of the soul.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like God, you know, God never leaves us.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's there.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: God doesn't change.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's our understanding or our we're being shaped, right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, our distorted images of God are being reshaped into something better.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I will say part of I I do think for the listener who's walking through this, what the dark knight invites you to do is like never before, you do have to kind of Psalm 119 talks about this.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I will hold fast to you.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I am gonna contend for my faith.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I need you to hold me, but I'm also holding on.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that for me looked like literally looking.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I would pray.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: This became a regular, almost mantra of mine, a prayer of mine.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: God, show me where you're coming towards me with love.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Show me where you're coming towards me with love.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like the way I describe it in the book is like I began hunting for love or hunting for beauty.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I mean, I was like anything, anything I could cling to, a breadcrumb, a meaningful conversation with a friend.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'd go, okay, Lord, that's from you.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's you coming towards me with love.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, uh, a text message from somebody that just was encouraged.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, God, that's you coming towards me with love.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, funny things like, I mean, uh, I this is gonna sound so strange.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have this, I have this very interesting story of Galantine's Day, right after Jen died.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Galantine's Day was her her big holiday.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: She celebrated all the women in her life, especially the single moms.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: She would bake them cookies and give them gifts.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the first Galantine's Day after Jen died, I was just devastated.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like the day like sucker punched me, and I was like, not okay.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I came home from work that day, and this is gonna like let me tell the whole story because I know it might sound a little woo-oh, please do.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there there was a hawk sitting on my front porch.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um I was like, oh, that's so weird.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a little afraid to go in the house.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a hawk staring at my front porch.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like hours later, a friend sent me a text.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know there's a hawk sitting on your front porch?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hours later, there's a hawk sitting on your front porch.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, probably there was a mouse under my porch.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: The hawk was hunting.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I had I had another friend later that day say, Did you know that a hawk is sometimes in some cultures seen as a sign of like a guardian or a loved one watching you?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's woo-woo.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of beautiful, like there's a lot of debate in theology.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it does God do that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but what I was choosing to believe in that moment is that's God coming towards me with love.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, even if it's a weird, unusual thing happened on a really important day, I'm gonna take that as a sign and wonder, you know.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so those were the type of things that were not my typical, I'm getting up, I'm reading the Bible, I'm praying that I'm just looking, I'm hunting.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: God, where are you?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: God, where are you showing up for me with love?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can, I think, train your eyes to see those things and be willing to accept them with a childlike faith, like you will find, like, oh, God is showing up in ways that are a lot more mysterious and unexpected, small and big, ways that I couldn't even imagine.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: So those were some things that that I mean, I really I made a list, I called it a list of found things.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just God, where am I finding you?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, writing it down.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like that, a list of found things.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I I love that you shared that whole story because I did start praying and I didn't know if it was theologically correct, but I I literally asked the Lord, like, I need some breadcrumbs.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I decided to pull from that passage of right where even the dogs, you know, get, you know, the problems from the scraps.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I I just need a little bit of hope or just something.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes that was seeing breakthrough that I got to participate in for someone else, nothing to do with me.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was literally just a conduit, or I was getting to bear witness to God meeting and encountering people where I was like, He is showing up, he is doing things.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so if he can do it for them, he can do it for me.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Even if I can't find it in this moment, it will be mine.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: So well, I mean, I I just think we need to hear this when we're in the wait, when we're in that no season, when the prayers are not being answered, or we're just petitioning, petitioning, and nothing is moving.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I love the noticing book.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just that is beautiful.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't even have to be gratitude or specific adoration, just noticing.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: So just notice.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Pay attention.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's so many things I want to talk about.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really I am confident that those that have resonated even just a little bit with this conversation, they need the book, What We Find in the Dark.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you're a beautifully gifted writer.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you're anointed in that.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait to pour over all the stories and the words and draw from the example.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I just wonder though, if you could leave us with this one thought of like if you could go back and encourage yourself.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can, as you said, like you read your book for the audio version and you go, oh, I'm not there.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and we talked about some of those ideas, but what would you say to encourage yourself and the woman going through it right now?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, that that that question like gets right to the who makes me cry.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's such a good question.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had a conversation um during that season with a a Bible teacher, and she was talking about how she was at a funeral.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is I'm gonna say something kind of hard for the the listeners, so I'm gonna just give you a warning.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: She was at a funeral of four children, four caskets.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And she said that the the preacher at the funeral um giving the eulogy said something like um it will all be worth it, and and she's she expressed that's not it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: This four four small caskets is not worth it, absolutely not.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: But then she said, but God will make it matter, and God will make God will make meaning.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I would have said to myself a two years, two years ago.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like the loss of Jen may never feel worth it, like even the good things you find in it, it's never gonna be worth it.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that yeah, her loss, her precious kids losing their mom, her precious husband losing his wife, her parents losing their daughter, her sister losing her sister, like never worth it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: But God will make it matter and God will make meaning and God will hold you in it.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think what I would have said to her is like, cling to future promises.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know it hurts right now, but I promise you a day is coming when every tear will be wiped away from every eye for those who are in Jesus.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think to cling to the future hope that we have, oh, that's part of what makes it matter.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of where the meaning is.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's um part of what holds us during these in-between seasons.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: That is a beautiful message.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I'm gonna go back and write those phrases down, and I think my friends are too.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm gonna ask one more thing.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't often, but I feel it fitting that maybe ending in a prayer for my friend who's listening.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, good.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the Holy Spirit's nudging us and uh that would be awesome.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't mind, I'm gonna open my scriptures and perfect.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm just gonna read Psalm 13.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is a lament psalm and it's short, so I think it's actually a really good prayer over all of us.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: How long, oh Lord, will you forget me forever?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: How long will you hide your face from me?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: How long must I wrestle with my thoughts and day after day have sorrow in my heart?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: How long will my enemy triumph over me?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Look on me, look on the listener, God, and answer, Lord our God.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death, and my enemy will say, I have overcome him, I have overcome her, and my foes will rejoice when I fall.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I trust in your unfailing love, and my heart rejoices in your salvation.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: I will sing the Lord's praise, for he has been good to me.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, I pray that Psalm 13 would be true for the listener who's walking through a dark night, that even though it feels like you are hiding your face, even though it feels like you've forgotten them, even though it feels like they are wrestling every day with their thoughts, that they have sorrow in their heart, that the enemy is winning, Lord, that the truth would arise, that your love is unfailing, that your salvation brings us joy.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: And Lord, I pray that you would move the hurting person's heart to a place where they can sing praises to you once more, oh God.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Be kind, be merciful, be a nightlight in their dark.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: We pray these things in Jesus' name.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Aubrey, this was so good.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Amy.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you are welcome anytime, for sure.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Friend, I sure hope that this conversation with Aubrey met you in whatever season you find yourself now.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're wrestling with loss or a waiting season where there just seems to be an abundance of silence, or perhaps you've just been desiring faith that is real and honest.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And whatever it is, know this.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: You are not alone.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or at least you don't have to do this alone.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Aubrey's book is a beautiful companion for these moments.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if today's episode resonated with you, I highly encourage you to get What We Find in the Dark, Lost Hope, and God's Presence and Grief, wherever you can buy books.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're feeling stuck, unsure of what's next, or if you just need someone to guide you in this next season, I would love to be that person.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Book that clarity call with me and let's talk about your next steps.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't wait to get the support you need.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Friend, we're all broken.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're all blowing it, but the brave one does something about it.