Latest / Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash / #258 Gen Muir Is Back With Some Boundaries!

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#258 Gen Muir Is Back With Some Boundaries! · Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Ash, you know what they say? What? Third time's a charm.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: I thought this was an ad for a say.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I was like, what's the brand name?
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We are, of course, talking about the one and only
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Jen Muir, or as we call her.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, we're talking about the Oracle, Matt.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: And I would say that she's probably the best parenting
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: educator I've ever laid eyes on.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: She may be the only educator I've ever laid eyes on,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: but I don't want to lay eyes on any other educator.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I only have eyes for one educator and one educator only.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: If they come to me, I'm like, sorry, I'm taken.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I'm with Jen.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: It helps she's also a mum of four, Matt. And
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: her kids are getting up there.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: We're talking teenagers.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: And she's always so busy, but somehow, I don't know how,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to ask too many questions because she's
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: done a sensational job. I don't want to know her secrets,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: but she's written a book called Why Kids Need... Boundaries.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Why are kids parents and everyone need boundaries, if you
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: ask me?
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: What are your boundaries like as a parent?
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Are you talking about cricket or?
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: That, come on.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: That is.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: That is terrible. Sorry. Vic is shaking her head right now.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Boundaries for me.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: She actually would have preferred you made a cum joke.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: I'll cum on those boundaries. That's better.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I set the boundaries and no one fucking
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: follows them. That's how it works in my house.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I'm torn between I'm like, I want to be a
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: fun time dad. And then I'm like, these are the rules.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Everyone's got to follow them. And if you don't, I'm
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: kicking you out.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Of the house. Sounds like me.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: That sounds like my boundaries.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: And I'm worried that Jen will not agree with me.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think she's going to. Yeah, we'll find out.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I've got a couple of scenarios that we're going to
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: run by Jen and I reckon I'm going to catch
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: her out. Just one time I want Jen to be like, oh, fuck,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to answer that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: My money's on Jen, bro. There's no way you're catching
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: her out. She's got years. Look how thick the book
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: she wrote is, Matt.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: It's huge.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Like, that's just one of the books, Matt, and you
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: want to try and catch the oracle out?
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The audacity on you.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Don't underestimate me, Ash.
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: I've estimated you correctly, and I don't think you're going
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: to catch up.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Well, we're about to find out.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Two Doting Dads. Jen, please don't laugh
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: at my intro.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, laugh away, Jen. Be quiet.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Two Doting Dads and one doting mum slash oracle.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Doting oracle.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I am Matty J.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I'm Ash.
• 2:31
  Speaker 6: And I'm Jen.
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: Hi, Jen.
• 2:33
  Speaker 6: And I'm so happy to be here.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Do you prefer oracle or mum? Guardian angel.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I like Oracle. I'll go to your mum.
• 2:40
  Speaker 6: What's funny and my husband gets a bit annoyed because
• 2:43
  Speaker 6: he's the Oracle in that a lot of things that
• 2:45
  Speaker 6: have happened in our parenting, despite me being the parent educator,
• 2:48
  Speaker 6: he's actually the naturally better parent. And a lot of
• 2:52
  Speaker 6: my really cool things.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: So we're wasting our time.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Where is he?
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: Bring him in.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I don't think we can handle it. He'd blow our minds.
• 3:01
  Speaker 6: He's the only.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: He wouldn't need us anymore. Just sit down.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Levitates into the room.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 3:10
  Speaker 6: So he's my oracle. But, yes, I can be your oracle.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: And I love how before we started recording, Jen's like, oh,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: by the way, I just did a talk to like
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: a billion people online.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: It was a webinar.
• 3:22
  Speaker 6: It was a webinar. It was 850, not a billion.
• 3:24
  Speaker 6: 850 people. Yes, yes.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, webinars are awkward because you're like, is it working?
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: You can't tell if it's working or not. You can't
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: get like the laughter. It's so hard.
• 3:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah. You are talking into a silo. You have to
• 3:35
  Speaker 6: laugh at your own jokes.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Which for us is not that hard.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: I used to do webinars at my last job through
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: all of CBA.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: About what?
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: It was training. It was about using the system that
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: we use. And it's like. You did.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Sorry.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I've done it all, bro.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: And it's like, yeah, you crack a joke.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: You're like. And then no one else is laughing. You're like, damn.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Because you can't. They can just hear you.
• 4:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah. It's about my channel. This is more fun.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: I can only imagine the laughter right now in the
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: eardrums of the doters all around the country. I can
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: hear it.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: They're like, just get on with it.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Give us the good stuff. Stop chit-chatting. How are you?
• 4:14
  Speaker 6: I'm really good. Yeah.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: You look very good. You look great.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Not that you don't look great any other time.
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: So do you guys.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: You got a tan maybe? Where have you been? You
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: been away somewhere? No.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Just a Sydney tan. No.
• 4:28
  Speaker 6: Maybe it's that I'm taking my vitamins, trying to get
• 4:31
  Speaker 6: my eight hours of Zs, going to the gym.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: It's all paying off.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: And we will say congratulations.
• 4:40
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: On the book.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: How the fuck do you have time to write a book?
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: And I mean that in like a non-accusatory way.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, there it is.
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: How?
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: When did, when what, who was doing this writing for you?
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: I wrote it. Do you know what?
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: That's like, that's a thick book. That's thick. That's, oh,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: over 280, 280 pages?
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: What's the word count?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know. How many errors?
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: None. Well, that's what an editor's for.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, okay.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: Righto.
• 5:11
  Speaker 6: Do you know what? For me, because I live and
• 5:14
  Speaker 6: breathe this and I am fully obsessed with helping parents
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: with what kids need but also lowering the pressure and
• 5:21
  Speaker 6: the overwhelm, it actually came kind of easily in that
• 5:25
  Speaker 6: this is what I teach, this is what I'm talking
• 5:27
  Speaker 6: about all day long on webinars. So writing it, I
• 5:30
  Speaker 6: pretty much narrated it.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: How did the idea for Boundaries... pop up for you?
• 5:37
  Speaker 6: So I've always been passionate about boundaries because like my
• 5:41
  Speaker 6: backstory is that despite sort of having information as a
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: social worker, as the daughter of a therapist about what
• 5:46
  Speaker 6: kids needed and the kind of parent I wanted to be,
• 5:49
  Speaker 6: when it came particularly to boundaries, I found myself pretty stuck.
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: And I think a lot of millennial parents can relate
• 5:56
  Speaker 6: to this feeling in that I knew I didn't want
• 5:59
  Speaker 6: to smack. I kind of knew there were things I
• 6:01
  Speaker 6: wanted to do different the way that I was raised.
• 6:03
  Speaker 6: because I had access to information my parents didn't have.
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: But then I found myself standing in the kitchen faced
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: with a two-year-old and I was there going, do I
• 6:12
  Speaker 6: sit him in the corner for two minutes because he's
• 6:14
  Speaker 6: two or do I put a reward chart on the
• 6:16
  Speaker 6: fridge and hope that one of those things teaches him
• 6:18
  Speaker 6: how to behave? And neither was working and my partner
• 6:21
  Speaker 6: and I were like clashing over it. So I knew
• 6:24
  Speaker 6: I wanted an answer as to how to do boundaries
• 6:27
  Speaker 6: and I knew there were things I didn't want to do.
• 6:29
  Speaker 6: So I knew that this was the struggle of the
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: millennial parent because I think we've been told what not
• 6:34
  Speaker 6: to do. We've been told what not to do really
• 6:36
  Speaker 6: clearly and yet no one's really been clear on what
• 6:39
  Speaker 6: to do.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like what to replace, what not to do.
• 6:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah, what do I do when I'm not allowed to
• 6:43
  Speaker 6: smack and it kind of doesn't feel good to beg
• 6:46
  Speaker 6: or threaten.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Gentle parenting has ruined us.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. So everyone's going, oh, I've got to
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: be a gentleman.
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: But I feel like you can be a balance of,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: gentle parenting and stern.
• 6:58
  Speaker 6: So I have never associated myself with gentle parenting and
• 7:02
  Speaker 6: the book actually covers that. One of the things, one
• 7:04
  Speaker 6: of the reasons I think parents are burning out and
• 7:06
  Speaker 6: feeling overwhelmed is a little bit that gentle parenting.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: They're too nice.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: You've always said this.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Because the pendulum, look, it needs to swing in one
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: extreme before it corrects itself. And obviously we all got belted.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Love my mum.
• 7:19
  Speaker 6: Love my mum.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Belted me too. We got smacked. Sorry, there's a dent
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: in the back of my head, which is care of.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I'm just joking.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Nana never did that. She went the backside because you
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: couldn't see the bruises.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: True.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And then I think off the back of the smacking,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: the season of smacking as it was, we then went
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: gentle parenting and now we're correcting ourselves.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 7:44
  Speaker 6: And to explain like why that is so confusing is
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: that sort of gentle parenting is actually a term that
• 7:51
  Speaker 6: that got coined by someone. She was a UK author
• 7:54
  Speaker 6: who wrote some books around it. It was a way
• 7:56
  Speaker 6: of describing a parenting style we do know from the
• 7:59
  Speaker 6: evidence is best for kids, which is authoritative parenting. So
• 8:02
  Speaker 6: there are four ways you can sort of raise your kids.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: That sounds better than gentle parenting.
• 8:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah. So authoritarian parenting.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm going to resonate with this.
• 8:09
  Speaker 6: Authoritarian parenting is how we were all raised, which is
• 8:12
  Speaker 6: high structure and low warmth in boundary moments, which is
• 8:15
  Speaker 6: go to your room because I said, so I'm your mother.
• 8:17
  Speaker 6: If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to
• 8:18
  Speaker 6: cry about. All of that stuff, right?
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 8:20
  Speaker 6: So that was like the beautiful thing. The beautiful thing
• 8:25
  Speaker 6: about that or the good thing about that, we knew
• 8:27
  Speaker 6: where the limit was. But without any warmth or kindness,
• 8:32
  Speaker 6: it didn't feel great all the time for all of us.
• 8:34
  Speaker 6: We didn't build some of the crucial emotional and regulation
• 8:37
  Speaker 6: skills that would have been helpful. And as a result,
• 8:39
  Speaker 6: we learned to push behaviour or feelings.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like my mum was that.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: My mum was like always quite like straight to where
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: the boundary is without easing up to it, which I mean– Yeah,
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: everyone else around us wasn't like that.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: So to have her was kind of a good thing.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know where I'd be.
• 8:56
  Speaker 6: Yes. So that is kind of how we were raised.
• 8:59
  Speaker 6: And then I think gentle parenting sort of came and
• 9:02
  Speaker 6: it focused really on the connection and the empathy but
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: didn't talk at all about limits. So that could have
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: us leaning a little bit like, All empathy, all feelings.
• 9:10
  Speaker 6: And then it could become like it sometimes can feel
• 9:12
  Speaker 6: like the children's emotions are running the temperature of the house.
• 9:16
  Speaker 6: Like we are responsible for making our kids happy and
• 9:19
  Speaker 6: we don't kind of ever get to just say that
• 9:20
  Speaker 6: doesn't work for me. So what this book is about
• 9:23
  Speaker 6: is finding that balance between the firmness and the kindness.
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: There are ways of setting limits. where we're not threatening
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: and we're not begging and we're not bribing and we're
• 9:33
  Speaker 6: kind of not going, if you don't do this, I
• 9:35
  Speaker 6: won't do that. And it's really about that balance more
• 9:38
  Speaker 6: than anything else. But that balance is really hard to
• 9:41
  Speaker 6: do if that wasn't modelled for you. If what was
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: modelled for you is all firm without the kind, then
• 9:46
  Speaker 6: it's going to feel kind of uncomfortable and find that
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: balance is really tricky.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Why are modern parents feeling so overwhelmed?
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: I think that the world that we're parenting in has
• 9:55
  Speaker 6: changed dramatically. So we're living and working differently. We know
• 9:59
  Speaker 6: more about what can need and the kind of parent
• 10:01
  Speaker 6: we want to be and we're doing our parenting differently
• 10:05
  Speaker 6: but more specifically I reckon we've told modern parents when
• 10:07
  Speaker 6: it comes to boundaries what not to do but not
• 10:10
  Speaker 6: what to do and as a result it can almost
• 10:13
  Speaker 6: start to feel sometimes like the kids are running the
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: house And there's a chapter in my next book called
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: Take Back the House. And it all reflects back to,
• 10:24
  Speaker 6: I read this thing by Steve Bidoff, who's an amazing
• 10:27
  Speaker 6: parent educator. And he wrote this thing once about how
• 10:31
  Speaker 6: when you think back in history, once upon a time,
• 10:33
  Speaker 6: every house had a good room. Children were not allowed
• 10:36
  Speaker 6: in the good room. And in fact, there was almost
• 10:38
  Speaker 6: a mantra of children should be seen and not heard.
• 10:40
  Speaker 6: And he was saying, well, now parents are almost building
• 10:44
  Speaker 6: a parent's retreat because it's almost like the kids own
• 10:46
  Speaker 6: the house. And he was sort of saying it's time
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: for parents to take back the house. So we don't
• 10:51
  Speaker 6: want to go back to children should be seen and
• 10:54
  Speaker 6: not heard, but we don't want to also live where
• 10:56
  Speaker 6: children's emotions and how they're feeling are kind of dominating
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: the whole vibe of the house. So it's a sense
• 11:02
  Speaker 6: of how do we let our children lead? How do
• 11:06
  Speaker 6: we be empathetic and compassionate and kind and be aware
• 11:08
  Speaker 6: of their feelings, but also be willing to lead when
• 11:11
  Speaker 6: they need it?
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: I feel like I'm slowly in my journey trying to
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: find a little bit more.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Empathy with them.
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: Like it's only real of late really the last couple
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: of years because they're getting older and they're communicating, they
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: can communicate their feelings a bit better as well. So
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: then I feel like, well, if they're going to communicate
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: them to me, I'm going to communicate mine to them.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: But at the same time, you're like, I do find
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: myself falling back into that.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: Do this or I'll take that.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So like quite quickly, because it is the path of
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: least resistance sometimes.
• 11:39
  Speaker 6: I think it's also one of the biggest things I
• 11:42
  Speaker 6: think is so helpful for parents to know is that
• 11:45
  Speaker 6: whenever you're in those high stakes situations, you're never just
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: responding to the emotions or the behaviours of the kid
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: in front of you. What is also playing in the
• 11:55
  Speaker 6: background is how your parents would have responded to those
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: emotions and behaviours in you. So if you're dealing with
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: the kid in the kitchen who's wanting the biscuit and
• 12:03
  Speaker 6: you're saying no and they're melting down at the cupboard,
• 12:06
  Speaker 6: You're seeing the kid in front of you and at
• 12:07
  Speaker 6: a logical level, you know, well, that's normal to melt
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: down at three and my job is to say no
• 12:11
  Speaker 6: and to be firm and kind. And we can know
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: all that on paper and then in the moment have
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: our own parents' words come out of our mouths and
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: act more like a toddler than our toddler because your system,
• 12:21
  Speaker 6: while your brain knows, well, this is what I do,
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: your system is going, this emotion that my kid is showing, well,
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: that wasn't safe for me to show and so I
• 12:30
  Speaker 6: need to shut this down immediately.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: This is not safe. And so your system goes into fight,
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: flight or freeze. And that's when we either collapse or
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: give in and say, okay, just have what you want.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Just be happy.
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: Or we find ourselves going harsh.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I think one of the most common questions that we
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: got on socials is, and not to attack the three-year-olds
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: of this country.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: But what is going on with the three-year-olds?
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: Three-nagers. The bloody three-nagers.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Terrible twos is kind of, redundant it's.
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: Not it doesn't it's not even terrible i was like
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: my kids were the best at like two years like
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: they had their moment i know but three they.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden they built this resilience towards.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Me yeah i don't like we would be here all
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: day if i was to try and read out all
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the questions about three-year-olds but i think let's start there
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: like that's kind of like tell me if you think
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: otherwise but that's when boundaries start coming into play at
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: around the age of three because they're able to communicate
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: back to you like they can back chat and Do
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: you have any rules that parents can have in the
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: back of their mind when they're like dealing with, say,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: a three-year-old and it's that choice between do I pull
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: them up and do I discipline and put the foot
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: down or do I let it slide and take the
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: path of least resistance?
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, I do.
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: I think there is one question that parents can use
• 13:48
  Speaker 6: to define whether they're in a boundary moment or not,
• 13:50
  Speaker 6: whether you're going to die on this hill or not.
• 13:53
  Speaker 6: And it's a question that you can ask yourself, whether
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: it is your three-year-old wanting a biscuit, wanting another story,
• 13:59
  Speaker 6: jumping on your couch, hitting their sibling, snatching off something.
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: It doesn't matter what the behavior is or whether it's
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: your kid doing something.
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: Sounded like a day in the life of a three-year-old.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Welcome to my day in the life.
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: I'm going to smack my mom and I'm going to
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: throw food on the ground.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: It's going to be great. Watch me scream.
• 14:18
  Speaker 6: A hundred percent. So no matter what the behavior is,
• 14:21
  Speaker 6: the only question you need to ask yourself in that
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: moment is, does this work for me? Does this work
• 14:26
  Speaker 6: for my child? Now, I love that question because give
• 14:30
  Speaker 6: me a scenario. What's any scenario? Give me a boundary
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: scenario from your life.
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: Probably the one which is trying to get Macy to
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: come home from the park. Okay. So like we're there
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: for a set amount of time and I've said, hey,
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: we have to go home at some point to do this.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Just so you know.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: And it's whatever it comes out of my mouth is
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: bad news.
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: And no matter what, no matter like, and I can
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: give you ways that we can prepare a child to
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: leave the park. There's ways we can prep them in advance.
• 14:54
  Speaker 6: So when we're going to the park today, and I
• 14:56
  Speaker 6: know when I say it's time to go, it can
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: be pretty tricky. So we can do all that stuff
• 14:59
  Speaker 6: to prep a child that will help. We can make
• 15:02
  Speaker 6: sure that when we tell them it's time to go,
• 15:04
  Speaker 6: we're sort of connecting in before we direct. So that
• 15:07
  Speaker 6: those are the little tips that help in the lead up.
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: But no matter what we do all those steps, there
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: is no child on the planet that's ever going to say, thanks, Dad,
• 15:15
  Speaker 6: I thought I was having a good time here, but
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: I'm glad. You know, it's good on you for pulling
• 15:19
  Speaker 6: me up.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I can't wait to go home. I can't wait to
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: go home with you and not play at the park.
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and maybe we could get on with bedtime a
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: little earlier tonight.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: That's part of the structure. Now you're speaking the language.
• 15:30
  Speaker 6: You know, imagine like, you know, it's so funny, but
• 15:32
  Speaker 6: like we say, you know, no, you can't have a biscuit.
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: And what child says, thank you so much.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I am actually watching my weight for summer.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: I didn't want my blood sugar to spike at all.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: This is really going to save my appetite for dinner
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: and I'm grateful for you. Or like, you know, I
• 15:47
  Speaker 6: thought I wanted another story, but now that you mentioned
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: that you're done.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Aren't you tired?
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: I would love a bit more sleep.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: You put your feet up. You deserve it.
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: So said no kid ever, obviously. So their job is
• 15:58
  Speaker 6: always to push against the limit. But I think sort
• 16:01
  Speaker 6: of knowing, preparing for that and then knowing that sort
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: of when we come in and we let our kids
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: know it's time to go. So the kid, you say
• 16:08
  Speaker 6: it's time to go. Your kid says no or they bolt.
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: You know, what do we do in that moment? Well,
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: I would always ask that question. Does this work for me?
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: Does this work for my child? And genuinely, if you're like,
• 16:20
  Speaker 6: do you know what? I don't mind five more minutes
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: of the park. Sure, let's stay. Then consciously go for
• 16:25
  Speaker 6: your life. If it doesn't work for you, truly, truly
• 16:28
  Speaker 6: the kindest thing we could do, because if it doesn't
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: work for you, it probably doesn't work for your child.
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: And I think a lot of the time, like if
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: kids would have it their way, right, they would only eat,
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: you know, Tim Tams for dinner and they would never
• 16:39
  Speaker 6: go to bed and like all of that stuff. They're
• 16:41
  Speaker 6: never going to say, oh, please help me with the
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: stuff I know I need. But often they're actually quite
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: grateful when we go, I know you're actually tired and
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: we are going to leave the park now and as
• 16:52
  Speaker 6: much as you might want to keep playing forever, I
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: know your energy is not infinite.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I will pull you up.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: I will.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: And my dream is to be like, gotcha, Jen.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Two great minds going at it.
• 17:03
  Speaker 6: Go, let's go.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: One educated, one educated in other things.
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: I don't want to say uneducated because he is educated.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I didn't finish my TAFE course. That's another story.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: None of the TAFEs.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Don't worry about it.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: For my children, if I say, look, I know you're tired,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: they're like, what did you fucking call me?
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: I got Oscar a good one the other day.
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: No, you don't ever say they're tired. But let me
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: ask you this. Let me ask you to think about this, right?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: He wants a fight.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: I can feel it.
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: So I truly believe, right, whether your child is two
• 17:31
  Speaker 6: or three or eight, 15. I had to tell a
• 17:34
  Speaker 6: 15 year old last night, honestly, it's bedtime, like no
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: more in bed, right? I believe that there is this
• 17:41
  Speaker 6: thing where they will always say, no, I don't want
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: to go to bed. I don't want that limit. I
• 17:45
  Speaker 6: don't want this to end, whatever it is. And there's
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: more to that. So why will a two year old
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: not want to go to sleep? Because it's hard to
• 17:51
  Speaker 6: wind down because it's hard to say goodbye to you, whatever, right?
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: I believe that our job is to say, I get
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: that you don't want to go to bed. This is
• 17:59
  Speaker 6: the limit. You don't have to like it. They don't
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: have to love. Never, ever does your child have to say, oh,
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: thank you, Dad. Yeah, I agree.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: I am tight.
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: They're never going to do that, not in a billion years.
• 18:09
  Speaker 6: But here is what I reckon you can look for.
• 18:12
  Speaker 6: right after you set the limit. So I would say,
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: I get that you really want another story and there's
• 18:16
  Speaker 6: so much you'd like to be doing right now, but
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: right now it is bedtime and I'm done with stories
• 18:20
  Speaker 6: for tonight and I cannot wait to see you in
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: the morning. You can be upset about that, but that's
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: what's happening, right? And kids will do what they do.
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: I reckon there is a look right after that pushback
• 18:31
  Speaker 6: that happens, whether it's bedtime, whether it's the biscuit, whether
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: it's the kid jumping on the couch, whether it's my
• 18:35
  Speaker 6: 17-year-old wanting to go to a party that I'm not
• 18:38
  Speaker 6: comfortable with, Right after the you're the worst mum or
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: dad ever, there is actually a look of relief that
• 18:44
  Speaker 6: you see in kids' faces. And you've got to look
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: for it.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Where is it?
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: Look relieved. Just shake it.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Out of.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Them.
• 18:57
  Speaker 6: Imagine how good that feels to have someone that's willing
• 19:01
  Speaker 6: to say, I've got you even when you can't. I've
• 19:04
  Speaker 6: got you. Here's the edge. We're at the edge. Or
• 19:08
  Speaker 6: just say you've got a kid that you say don't
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: hit your brother and they're about to hit their brother
• 19:11
  Speaker 6: or they hit their brother and you say, I'm not
• 19:12
  Speaker 6: going to let you hit. And they go, rah, and
• 19:15
  Speaker 6: they're losing it. But there's a look of like, oh,
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: thank you. I didn't want to be... That kid.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: So if we go back to, let's say, hypothetical, Macy's
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: at the park.
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: Yep.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Ash is going, yep, cool.
• 19:25
  Speaker 6: Yes, let's do the park. I reckon this is a
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: really good one. Let's go, Deb.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I would go along the lines of, hey,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: we need to go. It's time to go.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: And the pushback would be obviously, no, not yet.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And depending on.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Feels like Macy's in the room with us.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: No.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: She's like, she can't really.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Talk very well.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: And then it's like, it's the thing is with Macy
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: it's not a big meltdown like moment it's a sulk
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: yeah that it's like she's not happy about it and
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: that's probably she'll continue to sulk and it will be
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: a fight back that I don't want to go I.
• 20:01
  Speaker 6: Don't want to go and how does that make you
• 20:03
  Speaker 6: feel I think early doors.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: It would have really frustrated me I think I've softened
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: up a little bit with her where I'll give more time.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: If it's needed.
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: Sometimes I think as parents, do you feel sometimes like
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: you've given everything and then no matter what, they're not happy?
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: And I think there's a part of us that's like,
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: I want you to be happy.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely feel that where I'm like, is this
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: not enough? Yeah.
• 20:28
  Speaker 6: Is it never enough? Yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Give them 100 lollies, they want 101. Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so many times I have said to them, I
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: was like, Mummy and Daddy do absolutely everything for you.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: The least you could do is put your fucking shoes away. Like,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: I think that's fair.
• 20:41
  Speaker 6: And yet.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: They don't go away, those fucking shoes.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: But, yeah, Macy's, yeah, the park's a big one because, like,
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: she's obviously having so much fun.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: She expresses herself so much more at the park. I
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: get it.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: So is there anything that Ash can be doing or
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: is the sulking just going to be part and parcel
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: with a kid that age?
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: Well, I would view that as her beautifully doing her job.
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: So your job is to let her know when it's
• 21:07
  Speaker 6: time to go, what works for you, what works for her.
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: That's your job as the parent. Your job is to lead.
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: And her job is to let you know how she
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: feels about it.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: And I think she's doing a really beautiful job.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Her job?
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: To let you know how she feels about it.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Which is her sulking, which is it because that's her
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: way of dealing with it too.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: So like whether it's the kid that's sulking or going,
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: you know, I don't want to go and that can
• 21:30
  Speaker 6: feel hard. And, again, the reflection for you in that behaviour,
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: we're going a little bit deeper here under the surface,
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: but the reflection for you is like what would have
• 21:38
  Speaker 6: happened to you as a little kid if you sulked
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: or whinged?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, we've been told off.
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah. So there is something deeply uncomfortable in that expression
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: of emotion. Another kid might express that same emotion, which
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: is just frustration. We're talking about building frustration tolerance in
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: our kids. So our kids are living in a world
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: where it is harder for them to have moments that
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: are frustrating than ever before. They don't have to rewind
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: a DVD. They never go thirsty for a second.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: The pain of rewinding a VHS.
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: Yes. Why do I say rewind a DVD? I think
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: I do it every time.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: You can rewind a Bali one.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 22:14
  Speaker 6: What I mean is rewind a VHS. I'm showing my age.
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: You know, they don't have a lot of frustration. So
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: it's when we say it's time to leave the park,
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: it's bedtime, it's childcare drop-off, no, you're not having a biscuit,
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to let you hit your brother, I
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: won't let you snatch that. It's when we set these
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: limits that our kids get some of the only opportunities
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: they get to feel frustration. It's actually a really positive thing.
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: Their expression of emotions around that, that's not the worry.
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: The boundary got set. As long as you're able to
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: say despite that expression of emotion that I know. I
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: can see how much you don't want to go, but
• 22:46
  Speaker 6: my hand's on your back and I'm going to lead
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: you to the car. Off we go. For the parent
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: that has the child that is now limp on the ground.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Have you got a limp one?
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, my question is going from the child who's
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: sulky when it crosses over to the limp child or
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the child who's like, I hate you, when do you
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: start being like, well, thank you so much for letting
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: me understand your emotions to being like, That's not fucking
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: on right now the way you're acting.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: If Macy told me she hated me, I'd leave her
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: at the park. Yeah. You would not. Oh, for a moment.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: A very brief moment. I'd be like, right, I'm gone.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: If you're going to talk to me, I'm out of here.
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: So the way kids are going to express emotions as
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: they sort of grow up, like first of all, kids
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: just show us physically. So the two-year-old probably goes limp, right?
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: They literally just lose ability. And then the three-year-old probably bolts.
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: They're like, I'm just going to run. Like it's time
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: to go. And they're like, I'm going to bolt. Have
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: your kids ever hidden from you when you're trying to
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: leave a play date or something?
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Always, yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: Okay, so all of those behaviours and then we've got
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: kids that might show us in another way. They might
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: whinge or whine or beg, please, I can give you
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: another 50,000 reasons why I should be able to do
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: this thing. And then we get kids and this is
• 24:00
  Speaker 6: actually as they're developing in their skills at expressing themselves
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: and linking emotions to the front of the brain and
• 24:05
  Speaker 6: then they're going to say harsh words. You're the worst
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: staff ever. I hate you. You're the only parent that
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: does that. I'd love to say that phase ends but actually...
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: you know, 17-year-olds will think you're the worst parent ever.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: So do we, like when does a boundary come into play?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Is there like?
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: Well, a boundary is what you're willing to do or
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: not do. Are you willing to stay at the park? No.
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: Are you willing to read another story?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: No.
• 24:26
  Speaker 6: Are you willing to give your kid a biscuit or
• 24:27
  Speaker 6: let them jump on your couch?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: So then if they start using.
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: Their expression does not require a boundary unless. Yeah. It
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: breaks a core rule.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Which is?
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: And we've done core rules before. So I have four
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: core rules. So the first is no hitting or hurting
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: ourselves or each other or the dog.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Hands are for hugging and high fives. Yeah. I remember that.
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: We can say that. I didn't ever say that.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Yes, you did. And we go, roll the tape.
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: Number two is no name calling. Number three is we
• 25:00
  Speaker 6: respect our environment. And so for me, my environment includes
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: my dining table. I don't want my kids standing on
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: my table. It's just one of my rules. For you,
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: that could be different in your house. And the fourth one,
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: if someone is crying or saying stop, we stop and
• 25:11
  Speaker 6: we check on them. There are four core rules. So
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: to me, your kid can express any emotions unless they're
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: breaking one of those rules or you might add another
• 25:23
  Speaker 6: rule to that. But we can't expect our three-year-olds to respectfully,
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: calmly communicate when we can't yet, right? And we can't
• 25:33
  Speaker 6: even expect at 15 that our kids are going to say, thanks, Mum,
• 25:37
  Speaker 6: for making me dock my phone out of my room
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: at bedtime. I really appreciate the way you keep me
• 25:42
  Speaker 6: safe from technology. You know, being honest, what a gift
• 25:45
  Speaker 6: you are. They're not going to do that. They're going
• 25:49
  Speaker 6: to push back. And they're going to say, you know,
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: you're the worst mum ever or all of that stuff.
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: I think we cannot sweat that.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: So if they're saying you're the worst mum ever, is
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: that one of the four, is that breaking one of
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the four rules?
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: Well, if they call you a bitch.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, because I get really offended when they say
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: you're the worst parent ever. I hate you. I'm going
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: to say that's breaking the rules. Do you agree?
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: No.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Well, that's your house rules though. They're your rules and yours.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether– the boundaries for me are so murky.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: They're gender rules. You've got your own rules. Set the
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: rule and say if you tell me– I don't know if.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: That's an unrealistic rule though.
• 26:23
  Speaker 6: Do you know what I think your kid is really
• 26:25
  Speaker 6: saying when they say, I hate you and you're the
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: worst dad ever and, you know, and kids will go further.
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: Kids will say, I want you to die or like.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And can I just, the reason why I don't know
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: if that to me is a boundary, but I don't
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: know if that's a realistic boundary for the modern age,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: if that's a boundary that's just been implemented to me
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: by my mum when I was younger.
• 26:44
  Speaker 6: Can I tell you why that's a boundary for you?
• 26:46
  Speaker 6: Because A, you're male and B, you're raised in the 90s?
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 87 baby.
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah. So in your era of being raised... Defiance was
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: an issue. One of the things your parents had to
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: do was teach you that if you said, I hate you, mum,
• 27:02
  Speaker 6: I'm assuming you would have got punished or sent to
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: your room. And you learned younger than you realize that
• 27:09
  Speaker 6: expression of anger towards my mum, not safe, because even
• 27:13
  Speaker 6: if she didn't smack you, what you learned was it's
• 27:16
  Speaker 6: not comfortable for me to express. And yet what we're
• 27:18
  Speaker 6: trying to do here is allow our kids to express
• 27:21
  Speaker 6: all their feelings. Anger is a valid emotion. Anger is
• 27:23
  Speaker 6: here to tell us something. This is why we're all
• 27:25
  Speaker 6: in therapy, trying to learn like, it's okay to feel angry.
• 27:28
  Speaker 6: It's okay to feel sad. It's okay to feel joyful.
• 27:30
  Speaker 6: So let's just take that. Defiance, particularly for dads, is
• 27:34
  Speaker 6: the most triggering of the emotions or behaviors our kids
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: can show us. Often for moms, it's whinging and whining.
• 27:41
  Speaker 6: A lot of women were told, turn that frown upside down.
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: Nice girls don't whinge. They just are polite. So whinging
• 27:47
  Speaker 6: and whining really gets to women. A lot of women,
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: not all women, but like that's just common. And a
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: lot of dads find that defiance or that big expression of,
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: I hate you, you're the worst dad ever. It's like,
• 27:58
  Speaker 6: don't you disrespect my authority?
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: That's the best impersonation of me ever.
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: Because you were not allowed to do that. And you
• 28:09
  Speaker 6: learned that so young. So even though you can, this
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: is why it's confusing. Because at a logical level, you're like, well,
• 28:14
  Speaker 6: this is a five-year-old or three-year-old or seven-year-old and I
• 28:17
  Speaker 6: get it. I've just said no.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: So should I allow it then?
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: Well, let's take a step out from that. What is
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: your child actually saying? I'll tell you right now. I'll
• 28:27
  Speaker 6: decode it. Your kid is going, I hate this limit
• 28:30
  Speaker 6: and I'm seven and it is so frustrating when I
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: don't get what I want because I'm learning how to
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: tolerate frustration and build these emotions and build the skills
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: to cope with it. And so I'm going to express
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: it in a way that is clunky and kind of like,
• 28:45
  Speaker 6: you know, it's loud and it's whatever, but it's, it's
• 28:47
  Speaker 6: not breaking one of Jen's core rules anyway. It's not
• 28:49
  Speaker 6: breaking a rule and they're not calling you a hurtful name.
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: They're not hitting you. Would I let my kid kick
• 28:54
  Speaker 6: me in the shins? Cause I've set a boundary. Absolutely
• 28:57
  Speaker 6: not ever. I will always stop that behavior. I'll say,
• 29:00
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to let you hit because actually we're leading.
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: So we're not saying if you call, if you say
• 29:05
  Speaker 6: that language, I won't do this for you later. Or
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: if you kick me, you're going to hurt my feelings.
• 29:10
  Speaker 6: If kids are breaking a core rule, I'm stepping in
• 29:13
  Speaker 6: to physically help them out always. But I think in
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: that moment of a kid just expressing their emotions, and
• 29:18
  Speaker 6: like I said, it can look like whinging or whining.
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: It can look like a kid laying on the floor.
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: It can look like a kid saying you're the worst
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: parent ever. All of that is just the expression of
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: this boundary feels hard. Our job is to hold the limit.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: So do I react at all? If one of my
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: children says you're the worst parent ever and this is
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: the worst day of my life, how do I respond?
• 29:40
  Speaker 6: I would offer myself genuinely some compassion. I would go, geez,
• 29:44
  Speaker 6: this is hard to not lose my mind at my
• 29:47
  Speaker 6: kid because actually this is super triggering. By not smacking them,
• 29:52
  Speaker 6: by not sending them to their room in that moment,
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: which is what would have happened to all of us,
• 29:55
  Speaker 6: that is showing extreme restraint and it is extremely hard.
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: Because while you're consciously going, oh, I know I can't
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: do that, your whole system is going, but we need
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: to shut this down now. So you're going to feel
• 30:07
  Speaker 6: really confused in that moment and your system is up
• 30:09
  Speaker 6: in fight, flight or freeze. This is the moment that
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: parenting is the absolute hardest. The kindest thing we could
• 30:16
  Speaker 6: do for all of us is actually go, this stuff
• 30:19
  Speaker 6: is really hard. This is really hard for me. You
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: could even say, I care about this situation and I
• 30:24
  Speaker 6: am going to take a beat because I don't want
• 30:26
  Speaker 6: to say something I might regret and I will be back.
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: Or you might say, I'm not going to say anything
• 30:31
  Speaker 6: at all. I'm just going to step out. And you
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: could do whatever you could to not be super explosive
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: or reactive. You're not always going to catch that. And
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: sometimes you're totally going to be explosive and reactive and
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: your own parents' words are going to come out of
• 30:42
  Speaker 6: your mouth. And you've got to be really kind to
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: yourself because that's going to happen.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: If they're like, you're the worst parent ever. But I
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: think my reaction is like, I'm sorry you feel that way.
• 30:52
  Speaker 6: Yeah, look.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 30:58
  Speaker 6: You can say anything. It doesn't matter.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: I'm scared to what to say now.
• 31:01
  Speaker 6: No, it doesn't matter what you say because actually your
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: kid is expressing their emotion. What I would, the reframe
• 31:07
  Speaker 6: I would do.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I sometimes say I don't care.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I always say that.
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: So mature.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I always come over and it's like, you're the
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: worst kid.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I don't fucking care.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: If that's how you want to play it. You should
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: say that.
• 31:20
  Speaker 6: I know you are. You said you are, but what
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: am I?
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: I do that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: I do that all the time.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: I always do that.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: And it's like, it's petty, I know, but sometimes I'll
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: just repeat the behaviour.
• 31:31
  Speaker 6: Well, yes, I get why, right? Because your hand is
• 31:34
  Speaker 6: tied behind your back. You've been told don't go smacking
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: or shaming here and so then you're like bleh. But
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: the reframe I would give you is what if you
• 31:43
  Speaker 6: could narrate out loud what the underlying feeling is, which
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: is your kid says I hate you when you probably
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: set a boundary. And then you say, I can see
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: that you're really frustrated about the fact that this is
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: now happening or this boundary has been set. You're allowed
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: to be frustrated. You know, you could even say, I
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: don't like the way you're speaking to me and I'm
• 32:03
  Speaker 6: going to step out and take a breather so that
• 32:05
  Speaker 6: I can regulate myself.
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: Noted.
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: You're allowed to be. You're allowed to be mad. But
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: then if my kid, and I do think this is important,
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: if my kid then tried to throw something at my
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: head or kicked me or called me a name.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Rule broken.
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: I would say, whoa.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: One of the four. You see these?
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, then if you do communicate that, they take
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: it a step further. They break one of the four rules.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: They then throw a piece of Lego at you. It
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: hits you in the head, Jen. Where do we go
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: from there?
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: One of those big bits too.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: I'm talking like a 12-stacker.
• 32:38
  Speaker 6: Lego is tame. At least it's not a chair. I
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: would absolutely every day of the week, I would view that.
• 32:44
  Speaker 6: And we've talked about the climb into dysregulation before. When
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: a kid is throwing... hitting, calling you names, they are
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: like they're at the point of no return. They absolutely
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: need two things, containment and to get their system back
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: to regulation. Particularly for younger children, I am going to
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: get very physically close to my child and go, usually
• 33:06
  Speaker 6: I won't let you. I love the words I won't
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: let you. I won't let you kick me, hit me,
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: hurt the dog, hurt your brother, spit, whatever it is
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: that's happening, I got you. And I would love parents
• 33:18
  Speaker 6: to know what we're really doing there is genuinely from
• 33:22
  Speaker 6: a place of love saying, hey, I can see you're
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: not okay and I've got you. Because actually no kid
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: wants to be hitting, kicking, swearing, calling you names, breaking
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: core rules, hurting their sibling, hurting the dog. They genuinely
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: don't want to be.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Some kids get kicked out of it though, don't they?
• 33:37
  Speaker 6: They don't.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Let's be honest.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Some kids fucking love it. They don't.
• 33:40
  Speaker 6: They don't. And this is the thing, even a kid
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: that looks you in the eye and you're like, don't
• 33:45
  Speaker 6: you do that thing. And remember we talked about your
• 33:49
  Speaker 6: kid tipping water out of the bath?
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:52
  Speaker 6: And then you said, don't you tip water out of
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: the bath and she spat water in your face. And
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: I said to you, that is an 8 out of
• 33:58
  Speaker 6: 10 on the level of dysregulation. And she's definitely letting
• 34:02
  Speaker 6: you know that's a boundary cross. I would go, whoa,
• 34:05
  Speaker 6: you're getting out of the bath, wrapping you in a towel.
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: She gets to have feelings about that. The boundary stands.
• 34:10
  Speaker 6: Your job is am I willing to sit here and
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: get spat in the face?
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: No.
• 34:14
  Speaker 6: That's a no.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Because of the rules.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: And tell me if this is right or wrong.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: So let's say I've been hit by the Lego. Yeah.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: I come in close.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry you had to experience that.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I then come in close. I say,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to let you throw Lego at me.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: That's not allowed. They will probably, if I get close,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: then they'll start hitting me.
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: So then my go-to is I'll put them in their
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: room and shut the door.
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: And let them just calm down. Is that right or wrong?
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: Look, there's no right or wrong. That is a way
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: to contain a kid. I'll tell you what I would do.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Please.
• 34:52
  Speaker 6: I would come really close. I would say, I can't
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: let you throw Lego at me and I'm coming in
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: with this real sense of I've got you and I'm
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: probably ready if this is a younger child, like nine
• 35:02
  Speaker 6: and down, because they're about to hit, I won't even
• 35:05
  Speaker 6: let them get that first hit in. I want to
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: be a hit detective. I'm like a ninja. I'm like, whoa,
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: not going to let you hit either and I've got you.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Do you have to train for that?
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: No.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: I had six months in Japan.
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: Wow. What you do need to do is be in
• 35:23
  Speaker 6: the position of I'm now leading. You now do not
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: get to decide what's happening next. I've got you. I
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: would say the words, Hey, I've got you. I would
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: come from a place of compassion. I promise you, once
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: kids are trying to hit you, their brain is offline.
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: This is not a conscious choice. They have flipped their lid.
• 35:41
  Speaker 6: They are gone. And actually the kindest thing you could
• 35:44
  Speaker 6: do is grab them and go, hey, I've got you.
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: I would in many cases grab my kid. I'm going
• 35:49
  Speaker 6: to hold them from behind like in a bear hug.
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: I'm going to sit on their bed or somewhere safe
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: and go in their ear, say nothing other than I've
• 35:55
  Speaker 6: got you. Yeah, I've got you. And I will say
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: nothing else till that system comes back to regulation. So
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: I would love, because I can see your face, I
• 36:03
  Speaker 6: want to.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: My kids would say, don't touch me.
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: They'd say, you're hurting me.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, get off me, leave me alone.
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: You're hurting me.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: This is child abuse.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: So do I keep on holding?
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Hold tighter.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:17
  Speaker 6: So here is what I would love you to visualise,
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: because I hear this from kids as young as 18 months,
• 36:23
  Speaker 6: like my kid has a night terror, but if I
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: hold them from hitting me, they lose it. Same with
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: older kids. They'll say, stop it, you're hurting me. And
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: I've had this.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Is my body my choice? Yes.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Not in this instance.
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: No, not if I'm keeping you safe. So if my
• 36:38
  Speaker 6: kid is banging their head against a wall, I'm like, whoa,
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to let you bang your head. I've
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: got you. I'm going to hold you. And they'll go,
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: let me go. You're hurting me. And I'll be like,
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: I can see you're having a really hard time. I'm
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: going to let you go once you're safe. I've got you.
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: And I just hang there. And I promise you if
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: you do that with confidence, they crest the hill and
• 36:53
  Speaker 6: they're in tears.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: Right? They're coming to you. I want to give you
• 36:56
  Speaker 6: an example. Just say I come home tonight. And I
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: just sort of I trip on some shoes. That's likely
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: to happen. And I just for whatever reason I lose
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: the plot and I start throwing plates at all my
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: children and my husband and I'm throwing chairs and I'm
• 37:12
  Speaker 6: screaming and ranting and I'm calling everyone names.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Are you playing the role of Jen right now or
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: a child?
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: I'm Jen.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: Nice.
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: So I'm Jen and I've flipped out. Like this is okay,
• 37:20
  Speaker 6: out of character, but just so this happens.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Is it, Jen?
• 37:23
  Speaker 6: Should my husband stand there and say, if you keep
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: throwing plates at us, you'll get no Netflix tonight? Yeah?
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: So should he say, please, you're hurting us?
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that seems appropriate. You're scaring us.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Stop it. No, not again. This is three nights in
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: a row.
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: Or should he say, whoa, you are not okay. I've
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: got you. Honey, let's go to the bedroom. We're not
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: going to do this in front of the kids. Like
• 37:54
  Speaker 6: I'm going to help you out. I can see something's
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: really up. This isn't like you. I've got you. I'm
• 37:59
  Speaker 6: not going to let you hit me or the kids.
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: And then he'd probably call the authorities, which we're not
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: going to do for our kids. But even if a
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: grown-up flipped their lid and they were throwing or hitting
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: or breaking a rule like that, wouldn't you think we
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: would want someone to say, I've got you. This isn't
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: like you. I'm not going to let you do this.
• 38:18
  Speaker 6: You don't want to be behaving like this. Now our
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: children that don't have a fully formed prefrontal cortex that
• 38:23
  Speaker 6: have cortisol in their systems and all these big feelings,
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: they're going to have all these big moments. And I
• 38:30
  Speaker 6: reckon our job once they cross one of those core
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: rules or if something's just not working for us. So
• 38:35
  Speaker 6: a lower level example is just say I'm trying to
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: have dinner and one of my kids is really upset
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: about dinner and he's going to wail and moan and
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: yell throughout the whole of dinner and it's impacting a
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: whole family. Then I might say, you're allowed to be
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: unhappy about dinner and I'm not going to make you
• 38:49
  Speaker 6: eat the dinner. But you know what? You cannot stay
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: here and impact the rest of us. I'm going to
• 38:53
  Speaker 6: walk you to your room. I'm going to take you
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: in there. We're going to sit there for a moment.
• 38:56
  Speaker 6: And if you want to stay in there and chill
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: for a bit, you can, or you can come back
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: and behave, but you're not going to stay here. I'm
• 39:02
  Speaker 6: not willing. to let you stay at this table and
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: keep impacting the rest of us. As parents, we need
• 39:08
  Speaker 6: to be able to step in and lead when our
• 39:10
  Speaker 6: kids need our help. And if we could view that
• 39:12
  Speaker 6: as kind, I reckon we'd do it better and swifter
• 39:16
  Speaker 6: and calmer and more confidently.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: Well said.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can't argue with that. I'm not going
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: to argue with it.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I've got another hypothetical. Okay, and I've spoken about it
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: a few times on the podcast, gymnastics. is a tricky
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: environment because as they leave, they have a spinning wheel.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: There's a couple of stickers on the wheel. It's like
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: you spin this wheel. If the little flappy thing at
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the top lands on a sticker, they get to choose
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: one of three toys.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: It's constant reward, isn't it? Right. Right.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: And sometimes they win.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: It's great.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: But I pick up my two daughters and my niece
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and there's always one child who hasn't won. There's a
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: one in three, right? Yeah. Actually, and it's worse. If
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: they all lose, it's actually okay.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: But the worst was two won, the third one didn't,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: being one of my daughters, and they flipped out, flipped out.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: And then it's also I have to leave. So I'm like,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: you know, I communicate, I say yes, Come on, that's,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: you know, we didn't win. That's okay. I know you're frustrated.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: At some point, communication wasn't working. So I had to
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: just pick her up.
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: Well, again, I'd go, is this working for me or
• 40:24
  Speaker 6: my child to hang here and keep naming feelings?
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Let's get out of here.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: So we pick her up, go to the car, and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: she's still DEF CON 5, having a massive blowout. And
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: then I was like, I'm going to let her calm down.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: He put some music on in the car. I was like,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: when we get home, surely she would have calmed down.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: And it just, she just, for the rest of the
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: night was just in a mood, stroppy. And every time
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I tried to like revisit, hey, I know you're really
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: upset and I know it must really be annoying when
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: you don't win the toy. Every time I touched the topic,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: she would just flip out again. And I was like,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like at some point I need to say
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: enough's enough. This is ridiculous. Pull your fucking head in.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to swear. But, like, I need to
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: stop being soft and be like, you're being ridiculous now
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: and this is not okay.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: The reality really is that because I'll do the same
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: thing before you answer.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: It'll be I'll completely be compassionate.
• 41:22
  Speaker 6: To a point.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: To a point.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: But if you start to continue to cry about something
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: that we're all over and we've validated you about it,
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: you're going to continue crying to carry on. Yes, Ash.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: At some point I'm going to say to you, you're being.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: A fucking idiot.
• 41:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: And this is ridiculous and you need to get over
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: it because we're all over it.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 41:41
  Speaker 6: But it's interesting how much we want to get our
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: kids back to feeling better unless.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Mainly because it's just.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Therapy skill.
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: It's very selfish of me, but you kill all.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: The fun times.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: More so because especially when you're like dinner, bath, and
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: then you're like you've got to clean your teeth and
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, like the reactions to everything are so
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: much bigger off the back of this fucking wheel at gymnastics.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: What I hate the most is that they think we
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: enjoy that, like doing the bath and bed routine. Yes.
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: It's like I don't want to do this for you.
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: You're not doing it for me, idiot. I don't want
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: to do this either, okay?
• 42:16
  Speaker 6: None of us want to be here. Exactly.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: If it was up to me, you'd live in filth.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I don't care.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Do I just allow them to be pissed off until
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: they get over it the next morning when they wake up?
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Or do I have to try and force the reset?
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: I don't think you can force a reset. And I
• 42:36
  Speaker 6: think what I would reflect on is, like, you know,
• 42:41
  Speaker 6: what's the problem with my kid being really disappointed, really
• 42:44
  Speaker 6: frustrated that they didn't win and expressing that. And unless
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: they're breaking a rule or there's something that's not working
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: for you, you don't have to do anything about it.
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: But I think it's a really interesting thing to tune
• 42:55
  Speaker 6: into because I think modern parents have been given a
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: message that it is our job to make our kids'
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: childhoods magical, that it's our job to fix our when
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: our kids are sad. And so when our kids don't
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: get fixed, when we can't make them turn the frown
• 43:11
  Speaker 6: upside down, we start to feel frustrated or angry or annoyed.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Like you failed a little bit.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I also think. For me, it's because they then start
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: being disrespectful. So I'm like, hey, when we get home,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: one of the rules is you've got to put your
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: lunchbox in the sink, right? And then they won't do that.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: And I say, hey, you've got to do that task.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And they go, no, like I don't care. And they
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: start to any demand that I try and enforce.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Is this breaking the rules though?
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: Because you're like similar to what you were saying, sorry
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: to butt in, but you were saying if it's impacting
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: everyone else in the house, you would physically step in
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: and say, hey.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Because I feel like they're walking all over me then.
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah. The reflection I would go back to there, and again,
• 43:54
  Speaker 6: this is so common for dads, is this is feeling
• 43:56
  Speaker 6: for you, I think, like defiance. This is like I'm
• 44:00
  Speaker 6: meant to be in charge and you're meant to respect
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: this rule.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: You're being rude, yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's rude. that's quite triggering. So first of all,
• 44:07
  Speaker 6: awareness of is this about me or is this about
• 44:09
  Speaker 6: the kid in front of me is a really important
• 44:11
  Speaker 6: question to ask yourself. In terms of the lunchbox, these
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: kids are like they're five, they're seven, how old?
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Seven and five, yeah.
• 44:18
  Speaker 6: Seven and five.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Old enough to know better.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Get a job.
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: Let me tell you a story.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 44:23
  Speaker 6: When my youngest son, I have a rule. I mean,
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: I love rules. I could tell.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Literally.
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: I kind of like rules a little bit.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: I wrote how many, 200 and something pages of it.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Not a single spelling mistake.
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: I mean, I have a house of four boys, so
• 44:44
  Speaker 6: I don't, it's not a, It's not like a family
• 44:47
  Speaker 6: that I run. It's a mini prison. It's a mini prison.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: You're the warden.
• 44:52
  Speaker 6: Right. So I have to have a lot of rules because,
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: you know, I've got a lot of kids and that's
• 44:58
  Speaker 6: got to work. One of my rules is that my
• 45:01
  Speaker 6: kids have to bring their school bag in and unpack
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: their lunchboxes every day and put it on the bench.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 45:05
  Speaker 6: Right, that's a rule. Does that happen every day? No,
• 45:08
  Speaker 6: everybody forgets. But if I say to them, bring your lunchbox,
• 45:10
  Speaker 6: they will generally do it. Then my youngest started kindy, right?
• 45:14
  Speaker 6: And he is a kid that finds the day at
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: kindy a lot. And I'm bringing it back to the
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: spinny wheel, right? So for your kid, that experience of
• 45:24
  Speaker 6: missing out alongside other people that got the, you know,
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: your sister and your cousin got the prize and you didn't,
• 45:30
  Speaker 6: the frustration of like coping with the feeling, the bitter feeling, right,
• 45:35
  Speaker 6: of losing in the face of other people getting it,
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: that is a lot to process. And another example, which
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: is the story about my son, you know, for him
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: getting through a day of kindy and like holding it
• 45:47
  Speaker 6: together was a lot. So we'd pull in the driveway
• 45:49
  Speaker 6: and I'd say to all of my boys, okay, guys,
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: you know the deal, bags in, lunchboxes on the sink.
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: And he would just look at me in the eye like, well,
• 45:55
  Speaker 6: that's not going to happen. And he would walk inside.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Bastard.
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: Now I did not ever. In the whole year of
• 46:05
  Speaker 6: kindy or year one, I never made this kid and
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: this kid is specifically this kid because he was a
• 46:12
  Speaker 6: kid that for lots of reasons found the transition to
• 46:15
  Speaker 6: school and being at school really, really hard. So I
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: did not ever make this kid do it. I trusted
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: that this is a good kid. And when he's on,
• 46:23
  Speaker 6: he's a really nice kid. And I've seen him do
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: really good and respectful things. But this kid has no
• 46:28
  Speaker 6: more good in him. So when I asked, does this
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: work for me? Does this work for my child? Or
• 46:32
  Speaker 6: is this the hill I'm going to die on? In
• 46:34
  Speaker 6: that moment for that kid, I'm going to go, you
• 46:36
  Speaker 6: know what? I'm going to model kindness here. And I'd say,
• 46:38
  Speaker 6: you know what? I'm going to unpack your lunchbox. Now
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: he does it. Like he's in your four. He is like,
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: he's so awesome. And he always does it when I
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: ask and he never says no. And like, it's, it's,
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: it's gotten there. But what I've chosen to do in
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: that moment is to drop the demand. But if he
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: hit or swore or threw something or, you know, was
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: making his brother cry or was snatching, I'd be like,
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: can't let you do that. Every day of the week
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: I would set a boundary about that stuff. I would
• 47:06
  Speaker 6: never not. Or if something wasn't working for me. This kid, right,
• 47:09
  Speaker 6: I said no screens.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: And we have a rule, no screens Monday to Friday.
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: One week on a random Tuesday he just goes, I
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: want screens. I'm like, well, you know, it's no brainer.
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: You absolutely know. So there's A, that's an unreasonable request.
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: So I know he's a bit dysregulated just by the ask.
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: And I go, absolutely not going to happen. Because I
• 47:26
  Speaker 6: thought to myself, does it work for me? Does it
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: work for my kid? No, it doesn't. We're not going
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: to do screens. I don't care how much you want it.
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to do it. He then followed me
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: around the house while I sort of cooked dinner and
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: tried to get some emails done, just whinging, crying, whinging, crying. Like, please, please, please, please.
• 47:41
  Speaker 6: And eventually I thought to myself, is this working for me?
• 47:43
  Speaker 6: Is this working for my child? And I was like,
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: it is not. And I said, you can be upset.
• 47:47
  Speaker 6: You may not any longer stand next to me while
• 47:50
  Speaker 6: I type emails and cry about this. You can go
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: cry in your room.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to know how the story ends.
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: Well, that's it.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: He's banned. You mentioned before.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Wait, wait. So what happened?
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: Oh, you just let him deal with it on his own.
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I just said I'm done with this. I had
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: set the boundary in a way that was firm and kind.
• 48:09
  Speaker 6: I said, hey, I get it. You really want screens.
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: We're not having screens on a Tuesday. That's the rule.
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: You're allowed to be upset about it. But once he
• 48:15
  Speaker 6: was kind of coming at me and whinging at me
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: for like an hour while I was trying to work,
• 48:20
  Speaker 6: I just went I'm no longer willing to sort of
• 48:22
  Speaker 6: listen to this. You're allowed to be upset. You're not
• 48:24
  Speaker 6: allowed to sort.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Of do it right on my work. Be upset somewhere else.
• 48:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I use that.
• 48:27
  Speaker 6: Which I can do because he's nine. and he's that
• 48:30
  Speaker 6: little bit older and I can say, you're allowed to
• 48:32
  Speaker 6: be upset.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Go for it.
• 48:33
  Speaker 6: I get it. It's horrible having a mum that sets
• 48:35
  Speaker 6: limits around screens. You can hate me. If he said,
• 48:38
  Speaker 6: I hate you, I'd go, I get it. You hate
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: these limits around screens.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Joke's on you.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: I hate me too.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you feel like this, Ash, or Jen,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: if you feel like this. My biggest fear is if
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: you imagine the household being a prison and you have
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: the rules and once the rules are not being followed,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: then the standards are slipping and the kids are like, oh,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I can just have a big cry and all of
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: a sudden I don't have to fucking put my bag
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: away and it's great. So my biggest fear is that
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: once I allow the rules to not be in. Lose control.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Lose control.
• 49:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah. And yet we don't really have control anymore. You
• 49:13
  Speaker 6: can't make a child eat. You can't make a child sleep.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Watch me.
• 49:17
  Speaker 6: You can't make a child go to the toilet. But
• 49:20
  Speaker 6: you can decide what you are willing to do or
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: not do. The boundary is actually over what you will do.
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: That's the reframe. So we're not trying to control our kids.
• 49:30
  Speaker 6: We're actually saying you don't have to sleep but I'm
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: not going to stay here and read another story. I'm
• 49:36
  Speaker 6: done with stories. You can be mad about that and
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: I can't wait to see you in the morning. And
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: that's the boundary. Does that make sense?
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: So actually I think of what we think. We think
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: boundaries are a request, put your bag in the sink
• 49:49
  Speaker 6: or your lunchbox in the sink or a statement. In
• 49:52
  Speaker 6: our family we put lunchboxes in the sink. Statement of value.
• 49:56
  Speaker 6: In our family we don't jump on the couch and
• 49:58
  Speaker 6: our kids are like, well, I do.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: I'm doing it right now.
• 50:02
  Speaker 6: So the boundary is I'm not going to let you
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: jump on my couch. I'm going to help you down
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: even when you're telling me you're not going to stop.
• 50:09
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to ask more than once either.
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: So the other three boys who had to put their
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: lunchboxes away themselves didn't get a similar treatment.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: What do you do if you get, and I have
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: this all the time with Oscar and Macy.
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: It's got to be like a one-for-all situation, right, where
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: it's like, okay, well, if he doesn't have to do it,
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: why do I have to do it?
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: What do you do with that?
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: One's getting special treatment.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: One's getting special treatment according to the other one.
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: I get this every night.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you've got four of them.
• 50:38
  Speaker 6: I remember once my youngest threw a fork across the
• 50:42
  Speaker 6: table at my eldest. And the context is my eldest
• 50:46
  Speaker 6: had poked and poked and poked and poked and finally
• 50:50
  Speaker 6: my youngest, I think he was about seven at the time,
• 50:52
  Speaker 6: he snapped and he threw a fork. I flew around
• 50:54
  Speaker 6: the table. The boundary is I'm not going to let
• 50:56
  Speaker 6: you throw forks. It's not safe. And I held his hand.
• 50:59
  Speaker 6: And my eldest goes, are you joking? Is that all
• 51:03
  Speaker 6: you're going to do to him?
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I would do the same.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: I would be like, hit him.
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: Mom, get him.
• 51:10
  Speaker 6: And he has valid points. On one hand also there
• 51:13
  Speaker 6: are things I would have done when I was raising
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: my eldest that like I can do differently now because
• 51:17
  Speaker 6: I'm like I know I don't need to send you
• 51:19
  Speaker 6: off to your room for this. I know how to
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: sort of help him in the moment. And I said
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: to him, you know, I get it. It feels really
• 51:25
  Speaker 6: unfair right now that sort of he's done something that
• 51:29
  Speaker 6: feels really wrong and you feel like more should happen.
• 51:31
  Speaker 6: You know, and I kind of validated that emotion that
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: he had. I think that kids will always feel like
• 51:37
  Speaker 6: things are unfair. So if one kid is being told
• 51:40
  Speaker 6: you don't have to clean up your room or you
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: don't have to bring your lunchbox in or we're sort
• 51:44
  Speaker 6: of letting a kid off the hook and another kid
• 51:46
  Speaker 6: we're expecting to do more because they're older or just
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: more capable. they're going to find that really frustrating. And
• 51:51
  Speaker 6: our temptation, I think, is to either juggle madly to
• 51:55
  Speaker 6: make everything even, like, okay, fine, I'll even it up.
• 51:58
  Speaker 6: Or we might say, do you know how much we
• 52:01
  Speaker 6: do for all of you? Like, you know, we sort of,
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: we go one way or the other. I think the
• 52:05
  Speaker 6: single biggest thing you can say, and it is so
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: hard to do in the moment, is actually just stop
• 52:10
  Speaker 6: and go, this feels really unfair. It feels like your
• 52:13
  Speaker 6: brother's just done totally the wrong thing or he's not
• 52:15
  Speaker 6: helping out. We're expecting you to bring your lunchbox in
• 52:18
  Speaker 6: every day and here he is getting away with it.
• 52:20
  Speaker 6: That must really suck.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: And then you can say, but I love you more.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: But you do way more things than him.
• 52:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Don't tell him I said that.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Don't tell him I said that. I slipped 20 bucks
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: in your pocket.
• 52:34
  Speaker 6: I just think actually though our kids just want to
• 52:37
  Speaker 6: feel seen.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true because it's like I know with
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Oscar he is more.
• 52:40
  Speaker 6: Because you can't make it even.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: He's more capable than Macy and it's one, a couple
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: of reasons.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, he's older. Two, he's just got more experience in
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: some of the other things. So I'll be like, well,
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: why don't you help her? Why don't you show her
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: how to do it? You know what I mean? Like
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: you just show her how to do it, you know,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: so that way you do it together. I don't know, but.
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: So I would say to the other boys, I know
• 53:01
  Speaker 6: it's really hard. I know that you're watching him get
• 53:03
  Speaker 6: away with not doing this and I know that's really hard.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Don't poke the bear.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I think back to when I was younger and I'd
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: be like, It's kind of like gladiator, like a spectacle.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, surely she'll get a fucking smack for that.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: And then she doesn't and I'm like, come on, bring it.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: Bring it out. Release the tigers.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Blood.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: We want blood.
• 53:21
  Speaker 6: I always think there's no child sort of more happy
• 53:24
  Speaker 6: to suddenly be an angel than the sibling of a
• 53:27
  Speaker 6: child that just got in trouble and that sibling's like,
• 53:32
  Speaker 6: I'm just going to use my knife and fork.
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, more than I usually do.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Mum, I love you.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:41
  Speaker 6: Mum, thanks for this delicious dinner.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Did I ever tell you you're the best mum? I
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: always pull Oscar up because when Macy's getting in trouble,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: he'll just be lingering.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: In the area. And I'll be like, one moment, Macy.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: Oi!
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: And I'll be like, you would hate it if you're
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: getting in trouble and Macy's there lingering.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: You're lingering.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not. Go do something. And he'll be like, what
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: do I do? What do I do? And it's like,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: you just want to be around.
• 54:08
  Speaker 6: Of course he does.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: There is a question here. I want to give a
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: shout out to Tamra Lee. Tamra Lee. Tamra Lee? Tamra Lee?
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: Tamara Lee. Tamara Lee. Tamara Lee.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: Tamara Lee.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Tamara Lee. Tamara Lee.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Tamara Lee. She wants to know about fights between siblings.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: At what point do you allow it to happen? And
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: what point do you step in?
• 54:35
  Speaker 6: Such a good question. So if we set our core rules,
• 54:38
  Speaker 6: which we've done today, which is no hitting, no name calling,
• 54:41
  Speaker 6: when someone's crying and we stop and we check on them, right?
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: If we've got those going and no damage to property.
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: Then we've got a bit of a guardrail for at
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: what point do siblings need help? Well, when one of
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: those core rules is being broken, I am every day
• 54:54
  Speaker 6: of the week going to let my kids know that
• 54:55
  Speaker 6: whenever that's happening, I will be here right by your
• 54:59
  Speaker 6: side to break you guys up and help you with this.
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: That's caused so much anxiety for me, like just hearing
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: them together.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like. When's it going to happen?
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: So sibling fighting is one of the biggest challenges in parenting.
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: Most parents will rate that as one of the biggest
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: causes of stress. And I think there's often when things
• 55:19
  Speaker 6: are really stressful for us, it's because it threatens a value.
• 55:22
  Speaker 6: One of the values or the hopes we have for
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: our kids is that one day they will get along,
• 55:27
  Speaker 6: that they will be there for each other when we
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: are maybe not there one day. Like I think there's
• 55:30
  Speaker 6: a real hope around siblings. And sometimes when they're not
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: getting along, we view that as a failure in them
• 55:37
  Speaker 6: or in our parenting. And there's a lot of value
• 55:39
  Speaker 6: placed around it. But if we strip that back, sibling
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: fighting is healthy, it's normal, it's how kids learn about
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: conflict and negotiation. So once we've established- Sometimes.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: It's fun to watch as well.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Fight to the death.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: It's never fun.
• 55:52
  Speaker 6: It's never fun, ever.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: No, it's not.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Take that out, Vic. I'm just going to leave this
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: baseball bat here and the chains over this side and
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: I'm going to eat this popcorn.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got my money on Oscar.
• 56:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he's definitely going to win. So once we've got
• 56:08
  Speaker 6: our core rules established, Now we can make ourselves rather
• 56:12
  Speaker 6: than like a constant referee where we're going blowing the whistle,
• 56:16
  Speaker 6: we're going to take turns, I'm going to be in
• 56:17
  Speaker 6: the middle of everything. What if we try to be
• 56:20
  Speaker 6: a bit more like a really good coach? So a
• 56:23
  Speaker 6: really good coach is not reffing the game. They're kind of,
• 56:27
  Speaker 6: if anything, giving a little bit of feedback but they're
• 56:29
  Speaker 6: not intervening. So if my kids come to me and say,
• 56:31
  Speaker 6: he won't share and he touched my thing and like blah, blah, blah,
• 56:34
  Speaker 6: I'm probably going to go, oh, gee, this sounds really tricky, guys.
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: That's it.
• 56:39
  Speaker 6: That's it. That's the end of the conversation.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: Work it out.
• 56:42
  Speaker 6: But it's actually like inviting them into, you can add,
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: I wonder how you guys are going to sort this out.
• 56:46
  Speaker 6: I know you guys are really capable. And you can
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: hear screaming and you can hear all kinds of things
• 56:53
  Speaker 6: that's annoying and loud and chaotic and kind of go,
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: what if we flip it and go, what a wonderful
• 56:57
  Speaker 6: opportunity for my children to learn about conflict and negotiation.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: It's music to my ears.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: And my brain's just like, shut them up, shut them
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: up any way you can.
• 57:08
  Speaker 6: But again, you know, you might just go, you might go,
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: I hear two kids and you're both wanting the one toy.
• 57:14
  Speaker 6: I wonder how you guys are going to work this out.
• 57:16
  Speaker 6: So that's a good coach.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: Ding, ding, ding, ding.
• 57:18
  Speaker 6: A good coach is narrating. And then you hear that
• 57:21
  Speaker 6: sound that indicates someone's just about to biff someone in
• 57:23
  Speaker 6: the face and you're like, whoa, I'm here, not going
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: to let you hit. So the core rule is where
• 57:28
  Speaker 6: I step in. But I want to give you one
• 57:29
  Speaker 6: more tip. Please. If we can coach the low-level stuff
• 57:33
  Speaker 6: every now and then, and I would say I've gone
• 57:36
  Speaker 6: from being a, what did I say? Coach. Imagine you're
• 57:39
  Speaker 6: calling a horse race. Imagine your two kids. I'll just
• 57:43
  Speaker 6: give you an example that I've lived like 1,000 days
• 57:45
  Speaker 6: in my life. There are two kids on a trampoline
• 57:48
  Speaker 6: and I can hear that sound that you know any
• 57:51
  Speaker 6: minute someone's going to be crying or hurt, right? You
• 57:54
  Speaker 6: know it. As a parent, you're like, why do they
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: do this? You can hear it. What I learned to
• 57:58
  Speaker 6: do instead of cut it out and get off him,
• 58:01
  Speaker 6: how many times have I told you, which may stop
• 58:05
  Speaker 6: that thing in the moment, but rinse and repeat 20
• 58:07
  Speaker 6: minutes later, the same behavior is going to happen. I
• 58:09
  Speaker 6: want them to learn the skills to navigate this stuff
• 58:12
  Speaker 6: on their own so that I'm not in the middle.
• 58:14
  Speaker 6: What I would do is come alongside the I see
• 58:18
  Speaker 6: two guys and Owen, I can see you're having a
• 58:20
  Speaker 6: lot of fun, but I'm looking at Liam's face and
• 58:22
  Speaker 6: I can kind of hear him crying. I wonder if
• 58:25
  Speaker 6: he's not liking this game. Now I'm kind of narrating
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: exactly what I'm seeing from a social level in terms
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: of body language and what people are showing and what
• 58:33
  Speaker 6: they're enjoying. You can do this with friends, with siblings.
• 58:36
  Speaker 6: What we're doing is actually helping them to spot the
• 58:39
  Speaker 6: pre-explosion signs in each other and know when to pull
• 58:43
  Speaker 6: back and how to repair from it. And with a
• 58:45
  Speaker 6: bit of practice, if you narrate that, kids learn and
• 58:49
  Speaker 6: they genuinely do. I've then been by the trampoline years later,
• 58:53
  Speaker 6: heard the build and then they heard the, oh, are
• 58:55
  Speaker 6: you okay? Okay, we can do it this way. And
• 58:57
  Speaker 6: I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. But they
• 58:59
  Speaker 6: do learn the skills and that learning how to narrate
• 59:02
  Speaker 6: that stuff is probably one of the biggest changes to
• 59:05
  Speaker 6: my parenting of four kids. I learned that because I've
• 59:08
  Speaker 6: spent many years in the office of beautiful occupational therapists
• 59:11
  Speaker 6: because my kids needed help with regulation. And so I
• 59:15
  Speaker 6: learned this skill of narrating out loud. What's happening? Like
• 59:19
  Speaker 6: I see two kids and I can see how much
• 59:21
  Speaker 6: you want to take that toy out of your sibling's hand.
• 59:23
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to let you snatch. You know, what
• 59:25
  Speaker 6: can we do while we're waiting? I get that it's
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: hard to wait. You're just narrating the experience just some
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: of the time. I wouldn't say we do that all
• 59:31
  Speaker 6: the time.
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: I just walk around the house going, oh, no, he's
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: taking a poo and that's what he's doing.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Didn't wash his hands.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: Wash your hands.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: Wash your hands. MXG flush. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: We're going to go by. There's Macy. She's still in
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: the car. What's she watching?
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: Something.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: She shouldn't.
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: Perfect.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: Let's keep going. That's exactly what I would do.
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: Before we go, Jen, I want to end on a
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: little boundary problem that I seem to be having with
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: my beautiful wife, April. Yeah.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: She doesn't do a lot wrong. Actually, she does nothing wrong.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: She's an angel.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: Good cover.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 6: April is an angel.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Her ears at home now hurt. She was like, something's
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: not right. What is it, Mum?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but your dad's in trouble when he
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: gets home.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: So.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: And it happens a little bit.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: I always say that she's her father's daughter because he's
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: a pushover. As much as I love him and love
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: his support, save myself there too.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 6: Hello, father-in-law.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: The other day, April made brownies for my birthday, okay?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: And we had them and we sat down to have
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: dinner and the kids were hungry but didn't eat. didn't
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: want to eat because they knew what was coming after.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: But I was like, I can't give you brownies because
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: you haven't eaten your dinner. So I proceeded to eat
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: the brownie in front of them.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: Both April and I did that because they didn't eat
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: any of their dinner. And I said, we'll try again tomorrow. Anyway,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: when I went to go shower the kids, I could
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: peer over the kitchen.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: I saw Macy upset about the situation and giving April
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: a cuddle.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: And I was like, where's this going to end? Because
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: I knew where it was going to end, where she
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: had managed to tell the kids that.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: It's okay, I'll put some in your lunchbox tomorrow and
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: completely broke the boundary that I had set, which was
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: we'll try again tomorrow night at dinner because she's such
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: a pushover, God love her.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: I knew it. I got a kick out of it
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: because I can read her so well.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: But I was like, how do I pull my wife
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: in line here with the boundary?
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: So we're on the same team.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 6: I don't think you have to. I don't think you
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: have to. I think that we can have different approaches.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 6: Like I often joke, my kids know that if my
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 6: husband is doing bedtime, they can get one more story
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 6: and one more this and one more that. And he's
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: okay with that. Like that works for him. As the
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: primary caregiver for the bulk of our parenting years, I
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 6: was done when I was done. And it was a
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 6: kind of thing for me to say, I've done your
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 6: two stories and I'm out. And they kind of got
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 6: to learn that that is probably the one that's going
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 6: to flex on that and mum is not. And I
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 6: think that's good for kids. I think that's okay.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: I thought it was like one rule, consistency is key.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 6: I think what matters more is that if something doesn't
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 6: work for you, you can authentically as the parent hold
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 6: your line. Like I think that if something was not
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 6: working for April, like, you know, the kids were standing
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 6: on her and she was like, that's uncomfortable. I don't
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 6: want it. That she'd feel comfortable to say, I want
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 6: you off me. You can sit next to me. I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 6: don't want you standing on me.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: It hurts.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 6: So I think being authentic about what works and doesn't
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 6: work for us is more important than us all being
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 6: unanimous on every rule.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I was like, I could have easily been like, no,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: you need to stay. But I know what she's like
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: and I know that.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: That resolution for her would have worked better for her
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: and for the kids.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 6: And it's a bit of a compromise. You said we'll
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: try again tomorrow. It was tomorrow. I don't mind it.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm wrong. Is that okay?
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: No. I think both are.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: If you want, Ash, we can cut that out of
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: the podcast.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: I think you're both wrong.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 6: I just think that we don't have to be even. Like,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: you know, when we look at that who's more on
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 6: that kind side, who's more on that firm side, what
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 6: if we look at it as that How lucky are
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 6: these kids to have someone that leans a bit more
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 6: that way and someone that leans a bit more that
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 6: way because they're getting all of their needs met and
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 6: that's really wonderful.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: I don't like it.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Jen, thank you so much for coming in.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 6: Thank you for having me. I love chatting to you
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 6: guys and I will come any time you call. Yes.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: You mean that?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Good. There's a few more topics. A lot of people
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: are asking about teenagers specifically. So you will come back.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: I will.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Potentially covering off teenagers.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: They scare the shit out of me, man. Absolutely.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 6: Teenagers are beautiful and there's nothing to fix. I am
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 6: loving being a mum to a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 6: and all the rumours and lies out there are wrong.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: They're a joy. If there's any other specific questions that
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: you want answered, Jen to cover off or focus on
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: for a whole episode, let us know.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 6: We could do a whole Q & A.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: Otherwise, check out her book, which is called Why Kids
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: Need Boundaries.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: Okay? It's available in all good bookstores, so thank you again.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. We'll leave a link in our
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: show notes. Yep.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Jen.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 6: Thanks, Jen. Thank you, guys.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Ash, to be honest, how do you think I went
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: with Jen?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Terribly.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: No, I got her. There was one moment where she
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: looked concerned. She looked over for help and I was like,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: no one's going to help you here, Jen.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: She seemed to help herself pretty quickly out of that.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: She was very good.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: She was very good.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: And we'll get Jen back again countless times because she
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: has so.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: Much to give us and the listeners.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: So if you have any topics you want Jen to
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: touch on, please send us an email.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: I do sometimes wonder, I think to myself, what is
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: the partner of Jen Muir like? She talks very highly
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: of her husband and I'm like, I want to meet
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: this guy.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: I bet you he runs a tight ship.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Should we get him in? He won't.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: He wouldn't do it.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Let's get Jen back.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: Does he exist?
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, is Jen even a parent? Yeah, she is.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: If you've enjoyed this episode, please.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: It's just because I lost the argument. It's just because
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't catch her out. I'm now spreading rumours about her.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Vicious rumour. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: Suggest any other experts or parents or whoever you want
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: to hear from on the pod.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe, follow us.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: That's what I was looking for.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: Everywhere2DotingDads, TikTok, Facebook.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Instagram.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: YouTube Shorts.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: Instagram. Instagram.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: And I just want to say, I just want to
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: say from the bottom of my heart, it is an
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: absolute pleasure and a privilege to bring this episode to
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: you week in, week out.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Why are you laughing?
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be sincere.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: All right, stop it. Let's get out of here.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 6: Bye. See you. Bye.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 4: We pay our respects to their elders past and present
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadigal land.