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The Ant Hills Kids - Part 1 · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: Before we start today, we would like to dedicate this
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  Speaker 1: episode to Ali Moore. She was a friend of the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: show and a true crime enthusiast who recently and unexpectedly
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: lost her life. You are our official badass of the day, Alley.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: May you rest in peace.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We all know that dark Words Don't drink the kool
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  Speaker 2: Aid and its unfortunate origins. It was birthed by a cult,
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  Speaker 2: and it showed just how many people can really be manipulated.
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  Speaker 2: Cults are also infamous for extreme idealisms and even sometimes abuse.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: The ant Hill Kids is a story of a Canadian
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  Speaker 2: cult that became so extreme that their leader not only
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  Speaker 2: claimed to be a messiah, but abused the members and
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  Speaker 2: performed extremely gruesome acts upon them. For example, though he
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  Speaker 2: had no training and he has no doctor, he sure
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  Speaker 2: pretended like he was. My name's Ben and I'm Nicole.
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  Speaker 1: And you're listening to Wicked and.
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  Speaker 2: Grim, a true crime podcasting. The following material in more
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: mature audience listener discretion. I'm fully disclosing this right now.
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  Speaker 2: This is part one of The ant Hill Kids.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, you are too kind.
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  Speaker 2: I'm letting you know just so you don't like get
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: all the way to the end of this episode, and
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, tune in next week Wicked, and you're like, fuck, you.
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  Speaker 1: Know, well there's deaf only one or two episodes where
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  Speaker 1: we have done that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that was kind of me. I've learned
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  Speaker 2: my lesson because there was recoil from that, and I
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  Speaker 2: was like, okay, maybe you know, some notice will be nice.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, this is a part one of two parts.
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  Speaker 2: So yes, it is most certainly we were. Actually, we
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  Speaker 2: did a poll over on Patreon. We let our patrons
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  Speaker 2: choose the next case. We put three different options up,
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  Speaker 2: this being one of them, and uh yeah, this one one,
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  Speaker 2: but by quite a bit, and there was a few
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  Speaker 2: people being like, oh no, the antil.
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  Speaker 1: Kids, good luck to you.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So here we are actually before while we're talking
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: about Patreon, I'm gonna just get right in and thank
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  Speaker 2: the patrons that signed up this week.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Sound good, sounds great?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So we had Renee Scott, Katie Stetler, Amelia and
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Clay Swanson. They all joined up over on Patreon. They're
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: getting behind the scenes content the extra episode at the
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  Speaker 2: end of the month, all that good stuff, good juicy
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: stiff exactly. So thank you guys so much. For signing up.
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  Speaker 2: We appreciate the absolute shit out of you guys, and
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  Speaker 2: even if you're just listening right now, we appreciate the
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  Speaker 2: shit out of you guys too. Don't think that getting
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  Speaker 2: off the leash because trust me. Yeah, awesome, She's right.
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  Speaker 1: My wine is also freaking amazing, is it now? Holy heck?
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: This is probably one of the best roses I've ever had.
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  Speaker 2: They don't feed it to me because might drink it.
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  Speaker 1: All from eight generation in.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my God, Kamloops.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Summerland. Okay, you gotta just try it, Just try it.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, I did open a beer ready. Prior to this episode,
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  Speaker 2: we did a little pre show for Patreon, so.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: It's dang good. I'm gonna have to read it at
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  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, are you cudding? Actually you're not too
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  Speaker 1: far off.
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  Speaker 2: I guess that's good.
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  Speaker 1: Dang good.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Eh yep, sorry, I gurgled your wine.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah my gosh. Do you want some freaking hallow candy
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  Speaker 1: while you're at it?
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  Speaker 2: Is there any left?
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  Speaker 1: No? Oh?
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  Speaker 2: Okay?
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  Speaker 1: Or you know, slurp your margarita?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Why not? We We got to let people know a
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  Speaker 2: few things here. There is a little bit of extra
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: stuff that we're putting out there into the world, into
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  Speaker 2: the world. It's true, that's what we're doing.
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  Speaker 1: True.
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  Speaker 2: For example, you know how Wicked and Grim comes out
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  Speaker 2: with an episode every single Tuesday, right.
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  Speaker 1: I am aware of that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, our other podcast, Fearful, is officially coming out with
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  Speaker 2: a web with a web I was gonna say episode
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  Speaker 2: an episode every single Wednesday now, so you can listen
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  Speaker 2: to Wicked and Grim every Tuesday and Fearful every single Wednesday.
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  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
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  Speaker 2: So there's currently ten episodes out for Fearful, but another
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: one is getting uploaded tomorrow.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's freaking exciting right there.
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  Speaker 2: It's super exciting. Yeah wow, and not only that, do
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: you want to hit him up on our other platform,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: tell them about we're doing over there.
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  Speaker 1: Well, do we have set days really for that yet?
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  Speaker 2: No, there's not really set days for that yet.
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  Speaker 1: But okay, well we do how We've mentioned it before,
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  Speaker 1: but we do have a YouTube channel. It's called Wicked Life. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's pretty wicked. Actually, you don't say, I do say,
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  Speaker 1: and on there we have vlogs and we well am
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  Speaker 1: I allowed to We're also going to be doing another podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, am I allowed to be saying?
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  Speaker 2: Yes? It's in the works. It's going to be a
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  Speaker 2: little bit before it comes out because it will be
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  Speaker 2: a video podcast over there, So we got a few
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  Speaker 2: things to get lined up first, but Wicked Life podcast
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  Speaker 2: vlogs are happening over there, just a whole yeah, good
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  Speaker 2: stuff about our life and yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because I mean our lifestyle, it's a little it's a
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  Speaker 1: little different at times, Like we live in a tiny home.
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  Speaker 2: We quit the nine to five jobs to tase on
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  Speaker 2: dreams viewers.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like we have we both have businesses that
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  Speaker 1: we can kind of teach on from that aspect as well.
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  Speaker 1: So there's like there's many things, yeah, that can be there.
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  Speaker 1: It's gonna be pretty cool.
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  Speaker 2: Plus we have two huskies, a black cat and eight
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  Speaker 2: chickens and those are definitely some source of interest in
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  Speaker 2: our lives and subjects of a few blocks.
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  Speaker 1: And I even like we live in Northern b C.
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  Speaker 1: What's Northern BC all about?
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  Speaker 2: Well, there is definitely one video I want to do
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  Speaker 2: on YouTube where we talk about having a tiny home
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  Speaker 2: in Northern BC. Yeah, because there's none of that on
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  Speaker 2: YouTube of tiny homes in like the north. Yeah. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: Wicked Life link is down below if you want to
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  Speaker 2: go check it out.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
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  Speaker 2: It is. It's pretty cool and real cool, real real cool.
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  Speaker 2: Well we digress. Are you ready to hop into the
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  Speaker 2: ant hill? Kiss?
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  Speaker 1: Oh?
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  Speaker 3: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: I thought I was. Now I'm nervous.
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  Speaker 2: Are you sure I'm a little nervous. You think you
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  Speaker 2: can take this one?
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  Speaker 1: I think I can? Yeah? Yeah, I do like cult cases.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm gonna just call you the Little Train
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  Speaker 2: that Could because I think I can. I think I
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  Speaker 2: can even clue into that. That's awesome. Okay, Well this
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  Speaker 2: is going to start off with an individual by the
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  Speaker 2: name of Roche Terrio aka Moses Moses. Yeah, ok so,
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  Speaker 2: Roche was a very disturbed individual, to say the least. Now.
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  Speaker 2: He was born on May sixteenth, nineteen forty seven in Sagoone, Quebec, Canada,
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  Speaker 2: and led a life marked by religious fervor. Let's say,
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  Speaker 2: not only that, but delusions of grandeur and a very
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  Speaker 2: twisted interpretation of biblical teachings. So he was raised in
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  Speaker 2: the thetfurt Minds excuse me, a small city set in
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  Speaker 2: south central Quebec of Canada. He displayed remarkable intelligence when
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  Speaker 2: he was young, but dropped out of school at the
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  Speaker 2: age of thirteen, and from there he began immersing himself
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  Speaker 2: in the Old Testament, particularly the strict Code of masculine authority.
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  Speaker 2: It portrayed awesome, lovely. Yeah, that's always fantastic to get that,
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  Speaker 2: you know, good old strict masculine, you know, stuff in
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  Speaker 2: there from the good old days.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly what everyone needs.
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  Speaker 2: Definitely not so. Rocha's troubled childhood was he was. It
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  Speaker 2: was marred by abuse from his father and fueled with
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  Speaker 2: obsession with apocalyptic visions and the belief that he was
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  Speaker 2: destined to lead a divine mission. Despite being raised Catholic,
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  Speaker 2: he converted to the Seventh day Adventist Church in nineteen
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  Speaker 2: seventy seven, adopting their holistic lifestyle. Their principles basically they
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  Speaker 2: shunned alcohol, tobacco, and processed foods, which I mean that
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  Speaker 2: in itself sounds fantastic, yeah, living, I mean, except the
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  Speaker 2: shutting alcohol.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just like, that sounds fantastic.
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  Speaker 2: The whole food sort of thing, the processed foods, you know, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: the good foods and the booze.
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  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily like alcohol is good for you, so.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I mean even Jesus partook
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  Speaker 2: in some wine, right.
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  Speaker 1: So just saying, yeah, what do they say it's good
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  Speaker 1: for your heart?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like one day is going to come back
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  Speaker 1: on us and be like no, probably.
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  Speaker 2: But anyways, Roche's time at the Seventh Day Church was
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  Speaker 2: short lived due to the desire for leadership and leading
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  Speaker 2: to his expulsion from the church. However, he was undeterred.
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  Speaker 2: He managed to amass a following, convincing his disciples that
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  Speaker 2: he was a savior chosen by God to rescue humanity
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  Speaker 2: from the impending evil that was the soon coming apocalypse now.
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  Speaker 2: The cult originally formed in nineteen seventy seven in Saint Marie, Quebec,
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  Speaker 2: with the goal to form a commune where people could
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  Speaker 2: freely listen to his motivational speeches, live in unity and equality,
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  Speaker 2: and be free of sin and in all honesty. It's
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  Speaker 2: a very noble belief. I mean, based upon the group,
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  Speaker 2: you know, it sounds like that's a good way of living,
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  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, I guess, but this idealism
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  Speaker 2: wouldn't exactly last for a.
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  Speaker 1: Long Yeah, I'm like, this sounds like shit. Actually, something's
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  Speaker 1: gonna go bad.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, okay, what their target is, what they're
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  Speaker 2: trying to do. They can live together in a community
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  Speaker 2: where they can motivate each other, live in unity with equality,
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  Speaker 2: be free of sin. You know, they're getting good ingestion
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  Speaker 2: of good foods, whole foods, no alcohol or tobacco like
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  Speaker 2: that in itself. That's a good way to live.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, if you step back and if
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  Speaker 1: it's just that, but we all know it's gonna get dark.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, if they stuck to that, fantastic. But clearly this
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  Speaker 2: is a cult, true crime episode. That's not what happened.
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  Speaker 2: They tried, but it didn't last long. So the original
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  Speaker 2: followers of Roche initially consisted of four men, nine women,
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  Speaker 2: and four children. Each of them were forbidden for maintaining
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  Speaker 2: any connection from their families and the Seventh day Adventist
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  Speaker 2: church that they originally came from. Okay, so basically citing
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  Speaker 2: this as a violation of his cults principles of freedom.
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  Speaker 2: Now they were to stick to themselves and that's about it.
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  Speaker 1: And well I have a question, but I'll wait, I'll wait,
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  Speaker 1: go ahead and shoo the question. I was curious that
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  Speaker 1: they're there. So they're at this point, they're there on
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  Speaker 1: their own free will.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, very much.
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  Speaker 1: So Okay, don't say it. I know you're hesitating. Don't
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  Speaker 1: do it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out a way to say it
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  Speaker 2: properly without giving anything. Don't give anything away, technically speaking.
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  Speaker 2: Throughout this whole time, they are all there on their
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  Speaker 2: own free will at all.
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  Speaker 1: Times, technically speaking.
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  Speaker 2: Technically speaking, Okay, okay, that's what I'm going to say.
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  Speaker 2: Roche's dread of the impending apoc clips that we had
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  Speaker 2: already talked about, would soon begin to intensify over the
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  Speaker 2: course of their developing of their group. He was convinced
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  Speaker 2: that God had forewarn him of the arrival of the
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  Speaker 2: apocalypse in February of nineteen seventy nine, so, utilizing the
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  Speaker 2: commune as means of preparation, he relocated himself and his
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  Speaker 2: followers in nineteen seventy eight, the year before the apocalypse
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  Speaker 2: was supposedly to happen. Can you guess if it happened
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  Speaker 2: or not. I mean, we're twenty twenty three.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess is that it didn't.
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  Speaker 2: No, it didn't happen, but we'll get to that. They
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  Speaker 2: embarked on a hike to the mountain side that he
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  Speaker 2: dubbed quote the Eternal Mountain in Saint Joke's Quebec nestled
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  Speaker 2: within the remote Gaspy Peninsula, so he fervently believed that
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  Speaker 2: this secluded location was where he could find salvation for himself.
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  Speaker 2: In the group, there, they would survive the impending end
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  Speaker 2: of the world scenario that was to come and that
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  Speaker 2: God foretold him of. So once they made their hike
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  Speaker 2: to this location, he picked the spot, and Roche, being
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  Speaker 2: the savior the leader, made his commune build their little
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  Speaker 2: town on the mountain side while he basically just sat
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  Speaker 2: back and relaxed.
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  Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, yeah, fun.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, he's probably most likely barking orders. Yeah, you know,
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  Speaker 2: he's like, I want this made over here, and do
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  Speaker 2: this over there.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of fun watching people work when
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  Speaker 1: you're not working, I guess true.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I will like, he was actually a skilled
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  Speaker 2: woodworker himself, so when they're building these cabins and stuff
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  Speaker 2: like that, he knew how to tell people to construct this,
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  Speaker 2: which I mean fair enough.
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  Speaker 1: So technically he was just like supervising.
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  Speaker 2: He was he was playing foreman, and I think he
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  Speaker 2: really liked to play foreman, let's put it that way. Yeah, Now,
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  Speaker 2: his vision and prophecy of the end of the world
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  Speaker 2: for the following year, of course, failed, as we had
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  Speaker 2: already mentioned, because hey, we're still alive here in twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty three, and his dedicated followers started questioning Rosch's wisdom.
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  Speaker 2: But like anyone else who is unsuccess yes fully predicted
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  Speaker 2: the end of the world, he had excuses. He said
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  Speaker 2: that time on Earth and in God's world were not
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  Speaker 2: parallel and attributed it to the miscalculation, as there is
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  Speaker 2: a discrepancy between the Israelite and the Roman Catholic calendars.
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  Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, that makes my head hurt almost.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's what he's trying to do. That's the point.
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, there's a discrepancy and they're not parallel between these
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  Speaker 2: two calendars and the God world and the real world.
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  Speaker 1: Shit.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So therefore it was a miscalculation basically what he's saying.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm sure that was the same sort of reaction
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  Speaker 2: he's getting from the followers. Oh okay, mm hmm, well
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  Speaker 2: he knows also, it must be.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like they're probably be a bit more
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: convincing or like that they were pretty convinced. Okay, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because they already trusted him and believed him.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm sure they were, but they were convinced
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  Speaker 2: he knew what he was talking about, because I guarantee
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  Speaker 2: you they didn't fucking know what he was talking.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's what I'm but it sounded smart and
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  Speaker 1: like educated.
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  Speaker 2: Oh so you know, definitely. But I mean, you can
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: really make anything sound smart and educated if you really want.
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  Speaker 1: I guess I know I'm very good at that. But yeah, I.
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  Speaker 2: Mean, for example, you can say, I don't know, we'll
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: pick uh McDonald's, someone Flippenberger's at McDonald's, right, So you
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: if you want to make that sound educated, fancy, sophisticated,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: you can say you are a nutritionist.
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  Speaker 1: Technician okay, as the job, Yeah.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I'm a nutritional technician or something like that. There you go.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, honestly, so many titles nowadays are so interesting
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: because like, oh, what do you do for a living?
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: And they say their title and it's like okay, cool,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Like you have no idea what the fuck that actually is.
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  Speaker 2: But you just throw fancy words at people and it's
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: like okay, sure they'll just because they don't want to
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: feel dumb. Lots of times they'll go with it. And
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  Speaker 2: I think he kind of prayed on that idea and
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: just threw out fancy words and they're like, gotcha. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: you know. So life within the commune, despite that hurdle,
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  Speaker 2: did begin to grow and things were increasingly radical, as
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  Speaker 2: Roche quote married multiple women and would father well over
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  Speaker 2: twenty children within the commune.
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  Speaker 1: Holy shit.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, all while asserting his godlike authority over them. Hate that, yeah,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: can't can't blame you for that one.
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  Speaker 1: Uh huh.
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  Speaker 2: The devotees lived in a secluded and precarious existence, deep
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  Speaker 2: in the wilderness on this mountain side, with minimal contact
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  Speaker 2: with the outside world. They did, however, resort to various
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: means such as selling crafts and engaging in odds and
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  Speaker 2: ends jobs, basically just trying to earn money, you know,
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of money to keep their little existence,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: their little culture kind of going right. Yeah. However, financial
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: struggles perpetually plagued the commune, leaving them teetering on the
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: brink of survival. But they just did their best and
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  Speaker 2: kept chugging along.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look at how many moles they have
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  Speaker 1: to feed.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, definitely, there's not a small number of them.
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  Speaker 2: They're probably thirty to forty people by now or so
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  Speaker 2: so Roche, who is now going by the title of Moses,
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  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, possessed a captivating charm, much like many people
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  Speaker 2: in his position who are leading cults or are psychopaths.
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  Speaker 2: Medically speaking, they generally have quite a charisma about them,
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  Speaker 2: and he was no different. And this allowed him to
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: exert complete control over his followers, dictating basically their every move. Now,
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  Speaker 2: if anyone was ever found to be not obeying his
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: words of rule, they would find themselves vulnerable to his
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: various means of punishment.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what was this punishments?
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Well, minor infractions resulted in physical punishments and beatings, okay,
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  Speaker 2: underscoring his absolute authority within the commune. So Roche. In
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: his religion, he had an amalgamation of a lot of
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: primitive ways of punishing, such as like just bullying, sexual sadism,
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  Speaker 2: and Old Testament teachings in fact were implemented. So despite
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: the unconventional mix, he had always maintained his position as
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: a supreme leader and messiah, rejecting any notion of equality whatsoever.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So he's basically like, listen to me, you don't you're
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: gonna be punished because I am better than you. I
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: am the Messiah, I am Moses, I know better.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's just terrifying to me because I feel
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: at some point you're probably just feeling like you're just
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: in this. You know, you want to leave or you
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: need to get out of there, but like you're in
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: too deep, you know, Yeah, and that sucks.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you right now, they aren't in
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: too deep yet. This is they're just dipping their toes
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: in minor right. To give you an example of some
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: of the things that would become Roche began performing surgeries
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: on the sick and injured within the group. Basically he's
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: their doctor. He has zero medical experience or history whatsoever.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: But it did not stop him. For example, I mean
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: this one is in nineteen eighty one, Roche would perform
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: quote surgery on a two year old little boy named
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Samuel Gillery who was experiencing difficulty urinating. So Roche took
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: on the role of this sick doctor and decided he
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: would slice open the child's penis to investigate and correct
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: the issue. What yes, Now, of course, his quote surgery
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: was unsuccessful and very painful for the little boy. It's
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: not that they had anesthetic or anything like that.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Little boy continued to cry. After the so called surgery,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Roche instructed one of his devotees, Guy Veer, to mersus
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: mercilessly beat the young boy, presumably in an attempt to
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: stop him from crying, or even in some twisted way
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: of punishing him for crying. Regardless, Guy followed the direction
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: of his Messiah, doing what he was told. Now, tragically,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Samuel succumbed to his beating and injuries. In a desperate
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: attempt to conceal the murder of the young two year
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: old Samuel, Roche and the Commune resorted to setting him
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: on fire and burning his body to try and hide
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: his death.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: WHOA, that does not seem like real life.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: This is very much so real life. This is what happened.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: That is so disturbing. And then I also feel like
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: just listening to that, I mean, I have no idea
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: but that that could have also have been as sudden.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Potentially it probably was, Yeah, which is just whoa yep,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: an added level of just fucked yep.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: So after they burned this poor child's body, because Roche
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: blamed Guy for who carried out the beating for his death,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Roche decided to punish him seriously. So he castrated him.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, but he was the one that literally ordered him
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: That, correct, Okay, but he blamed him for it because
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: he killed him, and he's so he castrated him.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: He's only been in school, like he left school at thirteen,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: he said, right, correct, But yet he's like a doctor.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: He's he's playing a doctor.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay. Uh.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Then after castrating guy, he then compelled his followers to
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: fabricate a story claiming that guy had been trampled by
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a horse, in case any weren't asked.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Like that's how it happened kind of thing.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, Yeah, that doesn't really make sense to me.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, I was trampled by a horse, my
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: balls got cut off, all right.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah that doesn't make any sense because you would also
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: have a little bit more damage too, I.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Feel like, yeah, probably just a bit. Yeah. Despite their
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: efforts to conceal the truth on what really happened, law
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: enforcement began to catch wind of the abuse, and police
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: raided the commune. Okay, and they discovered the charred remains
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of Samuel.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: They didn't even like hide that a they didn't even
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: hide this shit.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: No, not really, by the sounds of it. So Roche
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: and along with eight others, faced arrest and charges of
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: criminal negligence causing bodily harm. This is where the story
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: should have ended. However, we are far from the end
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: of this story. Wonderful Astonishingly enough, they were all eventually released.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Now I couldn't find exactly how long they were in jail,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: specifically Roche, but following these events, in nineteen eighty four,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Roche and his loyal followers relocated to a community near
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Burnt River, Ontario. So we are talking only three years
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: after this event. He is out and still leading the group.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, of course he is.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So here he continued his tyrannical rule over his commune,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: with now a total of twenty six children, most of
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: whom were his own. In this remote location, the commune
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: once again built itself a small township comprised of cabins,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: with you know, Roch sitting back saying hey build this,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: do that, and some tents and that sort of stuff.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: And once they were here, they tried to kind of
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: blend in with the small local townships nearby. So they
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: began producing maple syrup, preserves, bread, smoking fish, and they
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: sold these items just kind of I'm assuming like farmers
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: market style things or trading back and forth whatever they
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: needed to do. Basically just trying to sustain themselves and
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: to maintain a facade of some sort of normalacy despite
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the horrors that had transpired and the new horrors that
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: were beginning to already unravel.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, so it's almost as they're starting over kind of thing, yes,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: and trying to just fit in and not bring attention
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: to themselves.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what they're doing. Okay, They're like, hey, we're
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: going to go with Province over. We're going to start
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: this thing again, and we're just going to like blend
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: in like no one knows their history and who we
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: are and all this sort of thing and what we did.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: So yeah, act casual.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: You're like little hand gestures there were funny.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Sorry again, we're fine though they were trying to act casual,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: because trust me, they certainly were. It was here that
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: the whole hard labor that they were putting in on
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: like this mountainside that Roche began to actually compare them
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: to ants working on an ant hill, thus giving birth
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: to the cult nickname ant Hill Kids. Okay, I mean
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: most of the commune at this point is kids. Yeah,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: like ants and an ant Hill and Hill kids.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Oh they're just yeah, putting kids and everyone will.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Work basically now. Initially, the commune managed to integrate seemingly
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: well within the community, you know, act casule. But Roche
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: began drinking. Alcohol consumption escalated very quickly.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: What the shit? I thought that that was a no, no.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: It was. But he don't don't forget he's Messiah, he's Moses.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the rules don't apply to him exactly. Okay.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: And so with his drinking and the rules not applying
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: to him, not only did things escalate quickly, but so
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: did the level of violence within the group. Violence began
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: to escalate extremely quickly. His increasing dependency on alcohol became
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: a catalyst for heightened aggression, leading to him to a
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: certain control over his followers through cruel and dehumanizing methods
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Worse than before. The followers, weakened both physically and mentally,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: found themselves basically trapped, unable to break free from their
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: supposed Messiah. Though they were technically free, they really weren't.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Well they kind of this was I mean, they relied
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: on him in this group, right, correct? Yeah, so that's hard,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Well it will.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I'm about to explain some stuff here that really shows
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: how they were free, but they weren't. Okay. So Rocha's
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: rules were strict before, but now they evolved into something
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: even worse, making his rules before look rather lenient. Honestly,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: he would prohibit his followers from speaking to each other
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: without his explicit permission or even having him present. They
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: were not allowed to talk unless he said they were
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: allowed to, so basically he has to be there for it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: He also began to organize quote gladiator tournaments, forcing his
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: followers into a dirt ring to engage in brutal fights
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: for entertainment, Oh.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: My gosh, for his entertainment.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: He also became increasingly paranoid about what followers were thinking
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: of him, and his violence only escalated as a result.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: What became began as a physical assault using belts soon
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: evolved into more sinister form, using hammers and the flat
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: side of axes for beatings.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can you imagine getting struck upside the head with
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: a flat side of an axe?
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, like that could actually kill you pretty easily.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Oh you bet, Bud yeah, oh yeah, for sure, yeah yeah,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: oh oh yeah for sure.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: He Yeah.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: The atmosphere within the commune, I mean understandably turned increasingly
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the tile. Uh. It created an environment for fear submission
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: and further pushed Roach's hold over his whole commune. People
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: were just terrified. They didn't know what to do, but
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: all in the same sense, they literally wholeheartedly believed he
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: was the Messiah as well.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, that is just like I can only imagine that's
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: just like a complete brain.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It's a literal brainwash. Yeah, is what's going on here? Yeah,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: So if he ever did suspect that any of his
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: followers were beginning to think of leaving, this is where
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about where they had freedom, right, but they didn't,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: but they certainly didn't. That's when things would get really serious.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: For example, some would get binded with rope, and then
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: he would hang them from a ceiling and he would
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: begin to defecate on them while they were hung helplessly.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, that is disgusting.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Others were made to prove they were loyal simply because
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Roche had a suspicion of their loyalty. They were made
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: to take a sledgehammer to their own hands, their own
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: legs even and rained down on these legs, these bones
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: until they broke to prove to them, to prove to
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Roche that yes, I'm still loyal. So basically Roche is like,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I think you're gonna leave, here's a sledgehammer, break your leg.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Improve to me you don't want to run.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: That doesn't even make any sense.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Right, I know, because like, I mean, like I get
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: the concept he is saying. He's like, you are wholeheartedly dedicated,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: prove to me you don't want to run, so break
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: your own legs. However, that is so fucked up. Yeah,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: are you kidding me?
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. And then now he's just
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: gonna have all these injured people.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only that, if this person did actually
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: want to run, they're either like I have to break
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: my leg or this guy could potentially kill me or
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: do worse to me. Or what if this person didn't
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: even want to run and he just suspected it. Now
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: his person has to break their leg to prove that
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: they are loyal.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Well, because especially too if he has a bit of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: a drinking problem. I mean, lots of times I feel
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: like you make up things or think things when they're
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: not really happening when you're drinking, right, Yeah, so he's
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: probably paranoid and it wasn't even that way.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, he was getting very paranoid because he was drinking
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: and he's thinking what his followers are thinking of him,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: and he's yeah, he's just getting out of fucking control. Now.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Others were made to sit on top of a hot
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: stove top.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Why.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: They were also made to shoot each other in the shoulders.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Then they would smear feces in each other's open cuts
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: and wounds.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: What.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: They were also made to even cut off each other's
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: toes with wire cutters, or even eat their own feces.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Gosh, this is way too much.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: All of this was used as a form of punishment
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: and to prove that these individuals were still loyal to
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the commune and to Roche and we're not intending on running,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: But also like the infections and stuff that must be
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: happening there, like you people have to be severely ill them.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: He's clearly trying to get them sick and ill. Rub
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: shit in your open cut.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Gosh, this is too much much.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: It's fucked up, It's.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Way too much. This like how does someone even think
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: of those things.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: He's a sadist, is what he is. Yeah, he is
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: getting off on the torture of these people. He is
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: a one hundred percent psychopath. I guarantee it.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I am so uncomfortable listening to this and like want
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: to leave so bad. There's mail on the counter. I'm like, oh,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: maybe it's just start opening the mail.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Do imagine I'm just going to read our credit statement kind.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Of disassociate myself from this.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, I can't blame you. If you want
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: to disassociate from this is fucked up.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: That is just nuts.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he really didn't draw the line like anywhere. Basically,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: it seemed like whatever you could think of to put
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: these people through, I mean, apart from killing them or
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: each other, he would make them do this for his
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: own honestly, his own amusement. Though he said it was
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: to prove loyalty. No, it's his own fucking amusement.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: No, that is not proving anything.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: No, it's not.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: It's proving that he has a serious problem.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, remember this commune is comprised mostly of children
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: at this point, right, the children of the commune were
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: not exempt from any of these horrors. If they needed
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: to be punished, then so be it. If they needed
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to prove themselves, then they would need to prove themselves.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Sexual assault was also not out of the question either. Again,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: including the children. Wow, Now, as if things haven't been
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: bad enough, this part gets me the most. The kids,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: if they allegedly misbehaved. Now what Roache considered misbehaving, I'm
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: not too sure. I'm pretty sure it could be fucking
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: sneezing in this general vicinity at this point. Yeah, the
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: kids would then be held over top of fires, and
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: at times they would even be stripped completely nude, and
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: then they would be nailed to trees while the rest
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: of the children were instructed to throw rocks at them
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: and stone them. WHOA, I cannot begin to imagine the
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: absolute terror of enduring that as an adult, let alone
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: as a child.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: No, there's no coming back from something like that.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Really, No, fuck the person who put anyone through something
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, any of this shit.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: It's so hard to listen to stuff like this because
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: it seems like, oh my gosh, like run away, like
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: get away, But I know that it's so much more
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: complicated than that. To get out of these situations.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: It really is. Well, I mean there's Stockholm syndrome, for example,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: there's not only Stockholm syndrome. But you're fully believe that
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: this is your savior. Yeah, you're fully believed that this
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: is a messiah. There is your religion behind this. It's
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: a full belief in that there's not having anywhere to go,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: not having anyone else to rely on.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean too of their kids that they may
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: not even know any different too, This is just the
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: way that the world is. Yeah, in their eyes, it
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: totally could be right.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now imagine being one of the adults in this
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: commune too. Say you are a mother with probably say
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: three or four or five kids in here. The best
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: place you think is in the hands of someone who's
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: going to save your life, your messiah. It'd be the
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: person you can trust your kids with. Yeah, And if
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: you can't, then who else can you trust? Oh? Fuck?
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is just I it's very hard to even
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: think about anyone being in a situation like this. It's
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: it's just completely devastating.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: And you're out in the middle of the woods too, right,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: It's not like you can just knock on your neighbor's door.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, well, then you're also fearing for your life,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: because gosh, if he's capable of these things, what else
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: is he capable of?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, one particular event, a member of the commune
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: group did the only thing she could to try and
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: keep her child safe from roche. He was in the
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: middle of a particularly violent outburst, so to save her
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: child from potential violence to say, she placed the baby
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: outside so it was out of sight, out of mind.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: The only problem was it was in the dead of
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: winter and in the midst of a blizzard, the baby
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: would succumb to cold and did freeze.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: So seriously, yes, oh my word, that is something I
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: don't even know how to feel about that.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Actually, it's heartbreaking. A mother trying to save her child
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: from danger God inadvertently put it in the path of
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: another danger. Yeah, she did the only thing she.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Could she had she yeah, the ability to do to
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: save this.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Kid, which literally just proves how helpless these people are.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this is I don't like this brutal.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: So following the tragic death of this infant, an investigation
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: was prompted in nineteen eighty seven, and fourteen children were
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: removed from the commune and placed into foster homes.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's something.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Although this intervention could have marked the end of the abuse,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: it revealed a stark, a stark reality. The Children's Aid
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: primarily focused on rescuing the children rather than seeking any
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: sort of justice whatsoever. So they just were focused on
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: let's get the kids out of there, and that's it.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: That's kind of odd though, because you also think if
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: kids have been treated poorly and have been in danger
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: all this time, that there needs to be consequences of that.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but there wasn't.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: It was just like, get the kids safe, which is good.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: That's good, it is good.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: But also like, there's another.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Step to this, Yeah, there should be reprimendation.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: But consequently the commune persisted because there wasn't recommendation, and
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: so it was now no kids, it was just adults
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: left with two men and eight women, and Roche seemed
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: to once again up the level of abuse and torture
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: within the group with the children taken away.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: And also these people, I mean, I'm sure a lot
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: of them, the moms and stuff, are just heartbroken because
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: their kids got taken away from them.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Oh exactly right, Yeah, Now, I mean so you're going through.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: You left your entire life, Okay, the church you were at,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: the people you knew, your family members, everything, You left
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: all of that to follow an individual who you believe
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: was going to save you, and over the course of
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: the last decade, birthed your children, forced you into abuse,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: to hurt each other, your own children, other people you
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: loved and knew, made it so you couldn't talk to
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: not only people outside the commune that you supposedly knew before,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: or sorry that you did know before, but you're not
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: allowed to even talk to people in the commune that
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to know now, and everything, literally everything in
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: your world that you know and rely on, is this
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: sick fuck yeah, that controls every aspect. And now the
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: one thing you did have, the one.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Fucking thing that maybe brought you some joy.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: The one warm hug, that kiss, anything from your child
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: that you did have gone because of this fucking piece
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: of shit.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, gosh, I can't believe that more wasn't looked into
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: that it was. I mean, I'm thankful the children got removed,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: but there there's a little bit more pieces to the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: puzzle here.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Well, we've been talking recently on a few different episodes
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: on Failed Justice.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: System specically, you don't say, and.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I think the last one was Canadian as well. Yeah
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. So yeah, that fucking sucks.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe maybe it's not so desirable here, but no,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I mean everywhere has issues with this sort of stuff.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So with all that taken into account, with everything
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: they've gone through so far, this is where we're going
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: to end the episode.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Today, I was like, I'm like, no, no, there's a
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: bit more to go here, but okay, you're doing it.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: This is this is the best place to end it.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I did some more research through it. This is where
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: we're gonna stop it from here, Okay, Okay, I mean, yeah,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: you look pissed.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I am pissed. I'm sure I'm not the only one,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: because it's just like, I feel like we're just really
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: getting into this and I got questions that need to
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: be answered.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not promising your questions will be answered, cool, but
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I'm promising to deliver the information as best I can.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Of course, they won't get answered. It's a Ben show,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: it's a bench.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: What the fuck does that mean?
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: You always do ones that don't answer my questions?
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: You just have questions I can't answer.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like I mostly pick a case based on if,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: if it's solved, and if like I can sleep at
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: night knowing you know, well, actually, no, that's not true.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I've done some doozies too. Never mind, never mind.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: You like your your cannibal cases.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: You don't want, but you have done more cannibal I
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: bet you, if we went back and counted, you have
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: done more. No I I if anyone has some spare
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: time out there, I bet you anything that Ben has
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: actually done more cannibal ones than me.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: No, okay, you one hundred and ten percent? Are you
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: gonna you want to put something on this? You want
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: to bet this?
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: I see you're not.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent confident, but I'm like pretty confident.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Well, you're not confident enough to wager.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think you've done more. Maybe I'll make
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: time for this. We'll see.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: I'm like ninety nine zero point nine repeater percent sure
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: you have done more cannibal cases than me.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I do like a good
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: cannibal case. I don't know what that says about me,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: but I do.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: YEP, I did do one recently with like the like
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: technically he didn't murder the guy really because it was
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: like a you know, the online thing where they met up.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, yeah, And I can think of
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: two other ones that you've done too, off the top
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: of my head.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Oh so I've done three total, where you've probably done
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: like thirty.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Probably not, I bet you. Maybe I've done three as well.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: No, you've done more than three. I'm pretty sure you've
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: done like three in a row.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, well, I'm going to find another one.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Anyways, this is just a little marital dispute that you
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: will literally find in the description of this podcast. So
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: just just forewarning you, we have written it down that
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: this will happen. But if you want to hear more
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: marital disputes, we will talk to you next time The
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Wicked and Grim.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, if you also want to hear part.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Two of this, which you do, Yeah, trust me, you're
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: going to want to hear the rest of this. Also,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: all the links to our socials are down below. You
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: can find our new YouTube videos. The YouTube link is
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: down there. We're posting stuff with our Tiny Home Chickens
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: or our Wicked Life, just things that we're doing you'll
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: be able to find the link down there. We got Patreon,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: we've got Instagram, Facebook, the whole shebang.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we got it all.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you spell shebang?
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Shebang?
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: That? Well? Thank you for being here, guys. Hopefully you
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: guys enjoyed this one, and we'll see you for part
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: two next week. Until then, stay wicked,