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Neither Monastic nor Lay: What Triratna Ordination Really Means · Buddhistisches Tor Berlin Podcast

0:09
So we've been exploring this theme of commitment since we
0:13
started back after New Year. We've had two weeks on this
0:19
theme of commitment, which was not planned.
0:21
It's just spontaneously happened.
0:24
And yeah, this morning I just wanted to say a little bit more
0:28
about this theme of commitment. Those of you who've been over
0:32
the last two weeks, I hope you're getting a sense that when
0:36
we are talking about commitment in the context of Buddhism, but
0:42
in the context of of this centre in particular, commitment is
0:46
something positive because it it can sound a bit like narrowing
0:53
one's options down, being made to do something.
0:59
But of course, Buddhism commitment in Buddhism is
1:02
entirely voluntary. Now, that's the first thing.
1:06
It's something you would you would choose to do to commit
1:08
yourself to Buddhism, and that that choice would come out of
1:14
inspiration, that you would be choosing it out of positive
1:18
motivations. It might be that you're just so
1:21
attracted to what Buddhism offers that you decide to commit
1:24
to it. It might be that everything
1:28
that's not Buddhism is so unattractive that you choose it,
1:32
but still, that's a positive choice, a voluntary choice.
1:37
So just bear that in mind, because the word commitment can
1:39
have different connotations for different people, can have a
1:43
particular sound, but we're always talking about something
1:47
voluntary and chosen out of inspiration.
1:51
Yeah, positively chosen. So that's the first thing
1:57
important. One of the things I really
2:04
appreciated two weeks ago when Tara Palita spoke, I mean that
2:09
that set things off in the right tone, that commitment is a
2:12
positive thing because he was talking about for a commitment
2:16
to be effective, 1 needs to have a vision.
2:20
So what a sense of what it is that we're making a commitment
2:24
to. 1 needs a path, so a way to actually move towards it, and
2:30
one needs a community. It's very hard isn't it, to
2:35
commit to something and stick to it on your own if nobody else is
2:39
doing it. So the more we have a community
2:42
around the community of like minded people who share our
2:46
vision and are on the same path as us, the more effective then
2:51
that commitment will become. The realization of that
2:54
commitment will be more likely to happen.
2:58
So that in itself, vision, path, community, it's a very inspiring
3:03
vision that that is on offer, that Buddhism offers.
3:10
Then last week we were talking more in terms of how to make
3:14
that more specific. So we, you could find a vision,
3:18
a path in a community all over Berlin.
3:22
You could find different communities with different
3:24
visions and different paths. So we wanted to talk last week
3:28
about why or how that works here, how commitment deepens
3:34
within a context of a tree Ratna Buddhist Centre.
3:40
And there are different ways one can do that, but we were talking
3:43
specifically about ordination. So this moment in one's life
3:50
where you might decide to make a lifelong commitment to the
3:56
Buddhist vision within this particular community.
4:01
And we were talking about the decision to ask to do that,
4:07
first of all, because it has to be asked for, It's voluntary.
4:11
You don't get told to do it or made to do it even right until
4:16
the last moment. The people performing the old
4:19
nation ceremony, they're very keen to tell you you don't have
4:23
to do this. The door is there, you can go in
4:28
the other direction. So it's a voluntary choice.
4:31
Like I've said, we were talking about why we decided to make
4:35
that choice. We talked about the whole
4:39
training process, which over several years involves doing all
4:43
these different retreats. We talked about the highs and
4:47
the lows, the ordination retreat itself in Spain for several
4:52
months and a little bit about what came after and how it was
4:57
afterwards. So it's 10 years since we were
5:01
ordained together. So we were looking back over
5:03
that period, but it felt like there was so much we hadn't
5:10
said. We hadn't given any space for
5:12
questions. It felt like there was so much
5:15
more that we could explore on the theme.
5:18
And I think it's important that we do because it might look to
5:23
you or, or to many of you, it might just look like there's a
5:28
couple of people around wearing these who've asked who've been
5:32
ordained. And then there's everybody else.
5:37
And it's hard to know what that means unless we talk about it.
5:40
So we just want to talk a bit more about ordination and what
5:44
being an order member means and what it is.
5:49
But also it's not the case that there's just a few of us in the
5:52
room who are order members and then there's everybody else,
5:56
because there's a whole range of people in the room with
6:00
different levels of experience. So some of you might be here for
6:05
the first time, for example. Just a quick show of hands if
6:10
you are here for the first time. Yeah, so there's a few of you
6:14
each week. We we are always having people
6:16
who are here for the first time. I know there's a lot of you who
6:19
come regularly because I can see so many familiar faces.
6:24
But then there's also people in the room who are what we call
6:29
mitras, which means friends. And being a Mitra is a kind of
6:37
provisional commitment or it's a specific way of deepening one's
6:43
engagement or practice in the centre.
6:46
Again, you have a a ceremony here in the Buddhist centre
6:51
where you decide that for the moment, this is my main place of
6:55
practice. I believe that I'm a Buddhist
6:58
and I want to follow the Buddhist path and this is where
7:01
I'm going to do it. And people have a ceremony and
7:05
that's that's publicly witnessed.
7:08
So just a quick show of hands just to put people on the spot.
7:12
Who is a Mitra in the room? Yeah, So quite a lot of you.
7:18
And then some of those people who are Mitras have also decided
7:21
that they want to be ordained and embark on that journey of
7:27
training and doing all these retreats for many years and
7:32
eventually have one of these round the neck and a Buddhist
7:36
name and that's it for the rest of their life, probably.
7:43
So maybe the people who've asked for ordination, I'm really going
7:46
to put you on the spot now. Could you just stand up?
7:48
And there's there's a reason I'm asking you to do this.
7:53
Just just stand up. OK.
8:01
All right. Thank you.
8:03
It's interesting how they all end up in the same part of the
8:06
room, most of it. So I said that because it is
8:10
good for you to know, because if you've got questions about why
8:14
on earth would somebody choose to do that, then you can ask
8:18
them. Yeah, they you don't just have
8:20
to ask us. You can also ask them.
8:27
So you can see I don't have a, a very clear thread here.
8:31
I'm just exploring some themes. So we want, yeah, we just want
8:37
to talk a bit more about it. And there are a few things since
8:41
last week that have been on my mind.
8:43
So I'd like to to pick up on a few things and say a bit more
8:46
about them. But first of all, just a key
8:51
thing that came up last week was something that makes ordination
8:56
into the Tree Ratna Buddhist community, of which this centre
9:00
is part. One thing that makes it kind of
9:05
special, I wouldn't say unique, but perhaps unusual compared to
9:09
other parts of the Buddhist tradition, is that we describe
9:14
our ordination as being neither monastic nor lay.
9:20
It's neither monastic nor lay. So those of us who are order
9:24
members are not monks or nuns, but we're not lay Buddhists
9:30
either. And normally as, as Buddhism has
9:34
developed, normally there's been a distinction between the
9:38
monastic Sanger and the lay Sanger and you are one or the
9:42
other and nothing in between. What does lay mean?
9:49
So lay means not monastic. So if if you're ordained as a
10:00
monk or a nun, then you're given a certain set of precepts and it
10:05
will include things like celibacy, living in monastic
10:10
life, probably wearing robes, probably shaving your head, but
10:14
that's not universal by any means.
10:17
So you live a very, you live a monastic life in a particular
10:22
setting and you follow a particular number of precepts
10:27
depending on which tradition you're in, which can be very
10:30
long. So specific ethical principles
10:35
or observances, Yeah, if you're ordained as a labourist, then
10:41
you're not among growing them. Your lifestyle choice remains
10:46
perhaps more like it did previously, but you also receive
10:51
a certain set of ethical guidelines or principle.
10:56
But they're probably different for monks and nuns and lay
11:01
people. So it's interesting because in
11:03
that system, what is very, very important is the lifestyle
11:10
choice and the difference in choice of lifestyle.
11:14
Yeah. And the way the commitment
11:16
happens differs because some people have a monastic
11:21
ordination, some people have a lay ordination.
11:24
It's different for different people.
11:26
They follow different ethical guidelines or principles or
11:31
precepts. What I think's different about
11:35
Tri Ratna is that that's kind of reversed.
11:39
So Sangarakshita, who founded our tradition in the 1960s, he
11:45
said actually commitment should be the primary thing, the first
11:49
thing. So everybody who's ordained
11:52
within Sri Ratna has the same ordination.
11:56
Yet there's no distinction between monks and nuns and
12:01
laypeople. It's the same ordination
12:03
ceremony for everybody. Everybody means men, women, non
12:10
binary people. It's the same ordination.
12:14
Everybody gets the same ethical precepts, the same 10 ethical
12:19
precepts. So the commitment is the most
12:22
important thing. The lifestyle choice is more
12:27
secondary and more open. So some people do choose to live
12:31
more like monks or nuns. They're not, but they might live
12:37
more of that kind of lifestyle. They might live in a retreat
12:41
centre away from the world, so to speak.
12:45
Others might have lives in the city like I do, they might have
12:51
a career rather than working for Buddhism and teaching Buddhism
12:55
full time. They might have children.
12:58
So the lifestyle question remains open for us.
13:03
So that I think that is a key distinction or something that
13:08
makes our ordination perhaps not what you might expect when you
13:13
come to a Buddhist centre. I'm just wondering if there are
13:24
any questions about that or anything I've said so far.
13:28
I'll probably do this. I'll just try and pause just to
13:32
let things sink in. Maybe you've got questions.
13:36
Peter's got his hand up at the back.
13:37
Yeah, I'm. Thinking about the word
13:40
commitment and word and it seems to be connected to the idea of
13:47
rejecting something. So could could you speak about
13:53
commitment to something and rejection of the other?
13:58
Say the last part again, can you speak of commitment as?
14:02
When I make a decision to commit to something, am I not also at
14:06
the same time choosing to reject something else?
14:12
Yeah, I think you could talk a bit like that, couldn't you?
14:14
If there's a vision, if you're committing to a vision for
14:18
something, it implies that that's different to perhaps what
14:24
you currently experience, what you currently know.
14:27
So I'd say there's a moving towards something and a moving
14:30
away from something. Maybe a rejection is quite a
14:36
strong word, but there's a moving away from a particular
14:40
orientation to life perhaps. I'm going to say a bit more
14:44
about that later when I get onto my theme about names, but, but
14:50
maybe that's enough for now. Then there's a question here.
14:59
It's a good question. Different, different lengths of
15:04
time for different people. But it's normally a matter of
15:07
years, but it could be two years, it could be five years,
15:14
could be 10 years. It really depends on how the
15:20
process unfolds for an individual person.
15:24
So I think this came up last week that you might do specific
15:29
retreats. There's a kind of whole training
15:34
program, if that's the right word.
15:36
There's a whole path. But yeah, it just depends.
15:41
For different people, that takes longer to come to a point where
15:47
they feel that they're ready to make a lifelong commitment and
15:52
they know what conditions are needed in their lives to see
15:56
that through and for other people in the order to recognize
16:02
that they are also ready. So it's a kind of dialogue,
16:06
communication between the individual and other people in
16:11
the order. And there are ordination teams
16:15
in different retreat centres who it's their specific job or
16:21
responsibility to support people in that and to help and really
16:27
get to know them and see if if and when they're ready.
16:33
Yeah, all right, they're back. I wasn't.
16:35
Here, last bother heard you say something about 10 things you
16:42
commit to. Or yeah, So they're the 10
16:46
ethical precepts that order members take.
16:49
And if you're aware of the five ethical precepts that we
16:52
sometimes chant, it really is those five with a few extra ones
16:58
or expanding out on some of those five.
17:02
Sangha Darshani is going to be talking about them next week, I
17:04
believe, so I won't say much more, just to quickly rifle
17:13
through them and see if I can do that at top speed.
17:18
Loving kindness, generosity, stillness, simplicity,
17:22
contentment, Truthful speech, Helpful speech, harmonious
17:26
speech, kindly speech, tranquillity.
17:35
What's the other one? Compassion and and wisdom
17:56
unmodern. I thought I heard some gulping
18:01
when? You're trying to catch me out.
18:15
You could say you could. I remember, I remember on my
18:20
ordination course, it was very, it was very much stressed that
18:24
this is a, a commitment for the rest of your life or lifetimes.
18:30
And then people were gulping like, wow, they're potentially
18:37
anyway, let's not go into rebirth and stuff.
18:46
I'm just just give me a moment with this one.
18:50
I think again, I will come back to this when I talk about names
18:55
because I I see the I see what you mean, but I will come back
19:00
to it when I talk about names because in that context, I think
19:03
it's yeah, I think it I can communicate better through that.
19:09
OK, I like the hands are really popping up now, aren't they?
19:12
So we're just going to take two more and then we will I'll move
19:16
on and say something else. But if you've still got
19:19
questions, park them the. Question is what it takes to
19:26
commit for a lifetime? And is there certain qualities,
19:32
certain personality traits? What are the things that are
19:36
being valid when decisions they've made that the person can
19:41
take on the commitment of a lifetime?
19:45
That's a great question. Did everybody hear the question?
19:49
OK, So what are the can you just take in?
19:53
The question so I can just turn in favor.
19:55
Thanks. There's probably more.
19:57
The question is what it takes. Qualities.
20:00
Personality traits. To be able to commit for a
20:04
lifetime. So what are the people as they
20:09
are in the ordination course? What's the people who are making
20:13
decisions for them? What they're looking for or what
20:16
is being valued? In this process.
20:18
So how do they, how does somebody know that you are ready
20:21
to make a lifelong commitment? How do you know yourself that
20:24
you're making a life, you're ready to make a lifelong
20:27
commitment? Well, it came up in one of the
20:31
weeks over the last two weeks that you can only commit to the
20:36
unknown. And this is something
20:38
Sangarachito once said. You could only commit to the
20:41
unknown because if you already know what's going to happen,
20:46
it's not quite a commitment, is it?
20:48
Because you know it's going to happen.
20:51
So, so the commitment is to the path in a sense, and, and where
20:57
that will take you. So I say that because I think
21:01
one of the the main things that others might be looking for or
21:05
that one's trying to develop for oneself is to know what
21:10
conditions you need in your life in order to keep taking the next
21:17
step and the next step. Yeah.
21:19
So very simply, if you've been trying to put a meditation
21:24
practice together in your life for however long, you already
21:28
know there are certain conditions that are helpful and
21:31
certain conditions that are not helpful.
21:34
Yeah. So one condition that might be
21:36
helpful is to make space for it every day, to have a quiet spot
21:46
in your room or whatever, to do the meditation, to come to the
21:51
Buddhist centre regularly and meditate with others.
21:54
These are supportive conditions. Then other things might disrupt
22:00
that. You know, if I'm on my phone for
22:03
half an hour just before I meditate, it's probably not a
22:06
helpful condition that I'm setting for the meditation.
22:10
Yeah. So taking that simple example,
22:14
then expanding it to your whole life.
22:16
So what are the things that would support you to keep the
22:20
vision alive? The vision in this case being
22:24
the the possibility to gain enlightenment, like the Buddha
22:28
gained enlightenment. What?
22:30
What conditions allow you to keep that in view even if it's
22:35
lost? Because it's lost, isn't it?
22:38
Like often, what conditions help us to keep remembering?
22:42
This is what I'm really looking for in life.
22:47
What are the conditions that help you stay on the path?
22:51
Might be having strong connections with other people
22:55
who are also doing it. It might be knowing the Dharma,
23:00
knowing the Buddha's teaching, studying it regularly,
23:04
meditating regularly. What are the conditions that
23:08
help you stay in touch with a community?
23:13
So if people can see that are those conditions are present in
23:15
somebody's life, then there's confidence that they can keep
23:21
going. If you know yourself and through
23:24
trial and error you've discovered what are the
23:25
conditions you need, then that that makes it you have
23:31
confidence then in yourself, I think to keep going.
23:36
Having said all that, there's also something that's hard to
23:42
put into words that I think is is activated in the course of
23:47
one's spiritual practice. This sense of vision and
23:53
knowing, knowing what's true, knowing what's true in life,
23:57
having a sense of that, having a confidence in that.
24:02
It's kind of hard to say whether somebody has that or not, and it
24:07
can take time to see that. It's hard to say whether you
24:11
have it or not because sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not
24:15
there. But over time we see, Oh no,
24:17
this, this is my path, this is the direction, this is what I'm
24:23
being drawn to. Sanger actually used to speak of
24:27
a gravitational pull. So the force of gravity is
24:33
strong, isn't it? If I pick up the cup and let go
24:35
of it, it smashes to the floor. And sometimes we feel the
24:40
gravitational pull of habit, old habits, things that actually
24:47
don't make us happy, but we keep getting drawn to them.
24:51
We can also feel the gravitational pull of something
24:54
that makes us feel free, makes us feel like we're more aware,
25:01
more sensitive, more loving, more generous.
25:06
We feel this pull. It's hard to say what it is
25:09
that's creating that kind of gravitational pull, but probably
25:15
we've all felt that to some degree.
25:17
Or you wouldn't have chosen to come to a Buddhist centre.
25:20
But there's something that had a little draw on your
25:24
heartstrings, let's say, OK, let's just be with that.
25:35
And then there's another question here.
25:40
Why would you say Sandra actually chose to actually count
25:43
in order with? This possibility.
25:45
Of coordination as opposed to just practicing.
25:58
Not having an. Order trying to get along as
26:01
many other groups, yeah. So the question was, why did
26:03
Sanga actually choose to found a new order in 1968?
26:10
Yeah. So why not just carry on with
26:12
things or why not just let people kind of not do it by
26:18
themselves? But why have the formality of of
26:21
joining in order? Yeah.
26:24
Again, it's I think a big question.
26:27
I don't want to go too much into the whole history of how
26:31
Buddhism came to the West, developed in the West, but the
26:35
reason he founded a new order in the 1st place was in response to
26:40
what he saw as a need. So in Britain at that time there
26:45
were Buddhists, there were Western Buddhists and had been
26:50
for I guess a few decades, but they were traditional forms of
26:58
Buddhism that had come over from the East.
27:00
And again, they had this monastic and lay distinction,
27:07
which I'm not, I'm not criticizing by the way.
27:11
I think I think that has it's, there's a place for that in the
27:15
world. But he felt that it wasn't
27:18
necessarily helpful. His experience both in Britain
27:22
and as a monk himself in India was that what that could lead to
27:27
in some cases was a kind of first and second class Buddhism,
27:33
which he didn't think was helpful for either party.
27:38
So for the monks and nuns, maybe they were being supported by the
27:42
lay people to do their practice, but not necessarily the the lack
27:48
of need to support themselves could lead to a kind of comfort
27:54
or passivity on the the part of lay people.
28:00
They were supporting the monks and nuns and that was their
28:03
practice, but they might not practice themselves in terms of
28:08
really studying the Dharma and really going into meditation
28:13
themselves. So he wanted to do away with the
28:16
distinction and just just have people that were simply
28:19
Buddhist. You'd made the commitment and it
28:22
was down to you as an individual to practice.
28:29
Yeah, nobody else could practice for you and nobody could support
28:34
you either. You you had to have the
28:37
initiative and the responsibility to be able to
28:40
also support yourself. So I think that was a big
28:44
factor. But still your question is, do
28:48
people need that? Why?
28:50
Why join an order when you could just just be an individual
28:54
Dharma practitioner? And of course you can just be an
28:57
individual Dharma practitioner. So one of the options for you is
29:01
just to keep coming to the centre, practising the Dharma
29:06
here with other people, and then go into another centre on Sunday
29:11
and another one on Monday. And you could make a Buddhist
29:15
life out of that. And that, of course, is a
29:18
perfectly valid option. I, I speak for myself and say
29:23
the reason I chose to join an order was because I think in
29:33
order for myself to go deep, I had to, to go back to Peter's
29:38
question, who's disappeared, which is strange to go back to
29:43
Peter's question, to choose one, one tradition and one way and
29:50
going to it very deeply meant leaving behind other options,
29:56
but that, that actually can be helpful.
29:59
There's this image we sometimes hear of if you put a bucket down
30:04
so many different wells part of the way, you won't hit the
30:08
water. But if you put the bucket down 1
30:10
all the way, then you will hit the water.
30:14
So I guess there's a, the advantage is depth that you can
30:19
really go deeply into one approach and one system of
30:23
practice. The danger in that, of course is
30:27
that you exclude all of the presentations and it becomes a
30:34
bit too insular and not broad enough.
30:38
So there are advantages and disadvantages to both, but that
30:42
was one reason. So depth, but also just the
30:48
possibility of being part of an order and a community where
30:53
everybody was putting the bucket down the same.
30:55
Well, that really appealed to me because we need companions on
31:00
the path. And if you're both going further
31:04
and further and further together, or all of you are
31:07
going further and further together, you're united in that.
31:13
If, if someone's going more in that direction and you're going
31:16
in more direction like this, of course, you can be friends and
31:20
you can share that. But there might be a limit to
31:23
how much you can share that life.
31:26
And I wanted to go deep and fully share the life and living
31:32
with other people for their for them to support me and for me to
31:36
support them. I I can expand on that.
31:43
I'm going to expand on that a bit with one of the themes I had
31:45
in mind. But I'm aware there are other
31:47
questions. So just keep those, keep those
31:50
in mind. Yeah, just keep the question in
31:56
mind. I'll come back to you.
32:04
So I wanted to say something about names and perhaps one of
32:10
the most visible signs of being an order member apart from
32:17
wearing this, which we don't do all the time, do we?
32:20
So you'll notice as soon as the class ends, we take these off
32:24
and then we're just kind of mingling around and no one can
32:29
see who we are kind of thing. We don't stand out again.
32:33
So this this is our the equivalent of the robe.
32:37
So I think in the traditional ceremonies when people were
32:41
ordained as monks or nuns and were given a robe, they would
32:45
also be given a belt. So the robes would be put in the
32:49
hand and the belt would be put around the neck.
32:52
And some traditions did away with the robes, but they they
32:55
kept the belt as a thing around the neck and then it becomes a
33:00
symbolic object. So we we keep that tradition.
33:05
But when we take these off, it's not obvious who the order
33:09
members are. That's why we wear them as well,
33:11
so that you all know who's in charge here or who to go to if
33:17
you need to ask something. But then the other thing is our
33:22
names, isn't it? So everybody who's ordained
33:26
takes a Buddhist name, a Sanskrit or a Pali Buddhist
33:31
name. So I wanted to say something
33:35
about that because that's that I would say that's had a very
33:40
strong impact on my life and ties it a few of the other
33:45
points and things together. So first of all, in taking a
33:52
name, like Peter said, taking a new name means dropping an old
33:57
name, doesn't it? So my my old name.
34:02
And I feel like I don't quite want to say this, but I'm going
34:05
to do it to make a point. So my old name was Matthew,
34:13
people used to call me Matt for short, and my surname was
34:17
McCarthy. So McCarthy is an Irish name,
34:22
although in my family my dad and his dad were born in England.
34:29
So I couldn't get the Irish passport to get around Brexit.
34:32
I had to take the hard Rd. So, so Matthew McCarthy and
34:45
already in saying it, you can see how it's tied to family.
34:49
Like I've already mentioned, it's a family name.
34:53
So that come McCarthy comes from my dad's side of the family.
34:59
And the reason I, I'm reluctant to say it, oh, now I've said it
35:03
and feel slightly vulnerable. The reason that is difficult is
35:10
because you now you know that you could use that.
35:17
You could call me that name. Yeah.
35:20
And if you called me that name, that would be really, really
35:23
weird because I don't feel like that person anymore.
35:31
And it comes with so many associations.
35:36
So. So Matthew was the name.
35:39
I guess I was probably given the name.
35:41
Maybe it was chosen before I was born, but I was definitely given
35:44
it legally a few days afterwards when I guessing my dad went to
35:50
the office and they wrote my name on a piece of paper and
35:53
that was it. That was who I am.
35:56
So it became an identity after a couple of days of being born,
36:00
into which my whole life then unfolded.
36:04
Yeah. So everybody at school would
36:07
call me that name. Anything legal would any
36:12
document, any letter would have that name on.
36:15
All my friends would call me by that name.
36:18
Family. It's on my GCSE, A level degree
36:25
certificates, It's a whole identity.
36:31
So to to call me that now would feel strange because I don't
36:38
identify as being that person. Yeah, doesn't mean that I'm kind
36:46
of cut off from everything that happened before I was ordained.
36:52
But the name, the problem with names is that often we take the
36:55
name and then we fix something. Yeah, so it happens with
37:01
objects, doesn't it? If we know the name for it, then
37:04
we don't have to pay attention to it anymore.
37:08
So the name carries certain assumptions about us in our own
37:13
minds and in the eyes of other people.
37:17
One of the the ways I notice this most is when I'm listening
37:21
to bird song and I know what the bird is.
37:26
But once I've named it like that's a Blackbird, I stop
37:30
listening to the song and I'm sort of happy with myself
37:34
because I know what the bird is. It's a Blackbird.
37:37
And then I kind of go back to whatever I'm doing.
37:41
But then the the beauty of the song is kind of lost or yeah,
37:47
ignored again. So I think, I think it's
37:51
possible to do that with people. We we, if we know the name, all
37:57
our assumptions about them or about ourselves come up, and
38:01
then there's a fixing. Yeah.
38:07
So there's something symbolically about the time of
38:10
ordination when you say I'm no longer fixed by who I've been
38:14
all my life, all my conditioning, all the things
38:17
that have happened to me, all the things I associate with that
38:22
name, now is an opportunity to go beyond that.
38:28
So like I say, it's not a cutting off.
38:31
I'm very happy with Matthew McCarthy's life up until 2016,
38:39
even though it wasn't all a bed of roses, good things have come
38:44
from that. So I wouldn't want to cut off
38:47
from that. I'm not cutting off from my
38:49
family by no longer using my family name.
38:54
But something wasn't enough in that life and with that
38:58
identity, something wasn't enough.
39:01
And somehow finding the Buddhist vision, the Buddhist path, the
39:07
Buddhist community, choosing to make that lifelong commitment
39:11
was opening that out new possibilities, new potential,
39:17
and to name that was really important.
39:20
Or to rename. That felt really important.
39:26
There's this image we have for the the time of ordination.
39:31
I was saying last week, there are two parts to the ordination
39:34
ceremony. In the first part, which we call
39:37
the private ordination ceremony in the context of a retreat, you
39:42
leave the shrine room like this. You would leave the shrine room
39:46
on your own, and you would go to another small room somewhere,
39:51
and you would meet in there with another order member who we
39:56
would describe as your private preceptor.
40:00
And in the course of that ceremony, they will give you the
40:03
new name. They'll give you a specific
40:06
visualization and mantra recitation practice, and they'll
40:10
give you the 10 precepts, ethical precepts ritually, and
40:15
then you go back into the shrine room.
40:19
And then a few days later you have the public ordination
40:21
ceremony where everybody's there together who's been through that
40:25
ritual. And then you find out
40:28
everybody's name because up till then you've been in silence, but
40:33
suddenly everybody's new names are revealed.
40:37
But the the image that's often given is that walk to the
40:41
meeting with the private precept that on your own, which is
40:45
symbolising the fact that you will, you will go it alone, even
40:49
if everybody else were to stop pursuing the vision.
40:54
The image that's given is that that's like entering a Tiger's
40:58
cave. I think it comes from Zen,
41:00
doesn't it? You're entering a Tiger's cave
41:03
and the footprints lead in, but no footprints lead out.
41:09
So the idea is you go in as a particular person and that
41:13
person never comes out again. The person who comes out is
41:19
different and that means that person has a new name.
41:29
So you leave something behind, but you step into something
41:33
else. So what you step into is a or
41:35
has a new name is named. So for myself, the name, maybe I
41:42
should have said this at the beginning, sorry, is Padma
41:45
Sagara, which means Ocean of Lotuses.
41:51
And when that was given to be me by my private preceptor
41:57
Padmaavatra, lots of peas, he told me the meaning first.
42:04
So he said your new name is Padma Sagara, which means Ocean
42:09
of Lotuses. And then he said that the Ocean
42:16
Sagara has been given partly because of my own history, so my
42:27
not going into detail, but generations of my family have
42:30
been seafarers, have have worked at sea.
42:34
So there's a connection with the ocean and the sea.
42:36
So he said he wanted to include something of that sort.
42:41
But then he said that's nice, but really the Sagara, the
42:46
ocean, refers to the ocean of the darla, or the ocean of the
42:51
Buddha's teaching. And he said you need to go right
42:54
to the bottom of that ocean and discover what's there.
43:00
And then he said the Padma part Padma means Lotus.
43:04
He said that's to remind you that spiritual life is one of
43:09
growth. And he reminded me of the
43:12
Buddha's vision of beings, people as being like Lotuses
43:18
growing in a pool of water. So he said you need to grow and
43:23
you need to grow with other people, all of you like lotuses
43:27
in this great ocean of the dama. And then that was pretty much
43:34
it. And then I was out with this new
43:37
name. And what I think some
43:40
reflections on the name is that whereas Matthew McCarthy was
43:44
definitely my name, this new name, I would say partly it's
43:51
mine, but in other ways it's not mine at all.
43:57
So the new name is you, and it's not you at the same time.
44:03
So there's something about the name that was naming a certain
44:08
quality that he'd seen, something that I could, I was
44:13
bringing out and could bring out more fully.
44:17
But also that quality is a quality of enlightenment.
44:20
It's a quality of what's possible, what's deepest, and
44:24
what's most true. So that's not mine, is it?
44:30
That's naming something something else that perhaps my
44:35
life and the commitment will allow me to bring out into the
44:39
world more funny, but it's not. It's not my name in a sense.
44:45
So from a name that was kind of containing an identity, there
44:49
was a name that was opening something out and expanding,
44:55
expanding a sense of self and ultimately going towards
44:58
something selfless, which I think relates to your point
45:04
Chai, about impermanence. How can you commit to something
45:08
for life and all things are impermanent?
45:13
Well, it is a commitment to something in time, but the
45:18
nature of that commitment in a sense is timeless.
45:25
So the new name names someone, but names them in such a way
45:30
that always that someone is trying to move out of a limited
45:35
sense of identity. So any other questions?
45:49
Yeah, there were a few already, weren't there?
45:51
I think you had your hand up before.
45:52
How do you? Deal with setbacks when you are
45:57
on. That can happen, yeah.
46:05
How do you deal with setbacks once you're ordained, is the
46:08
question. And there are many setbacks
46:11
after ordination. In fact, probably there are
46:15
more. When we were ordained, we were
46:19
told, weren't we, to make all the, all the mistakes you can in
46:23
the first two years? Because after that it will just
46:26
be embarrassing. And it is embarrassing because
46:32
we carry on making mistakes. Yeah, we're not perfect, but how
46:38
we deal with it, I think is, like I said, through the
46:41
training, learning what conditions are needed.
46:44
Of course there are setbacks that we cause through our own
46:49
ignorance and other things that affect us.
46:53
Our habits and our conditioning remain.
46:56
So no ritual is going to completely remove those.
47:01
But by stepping into the life of the order, I think you're
47:07
stepping into conditions that support increasingly creative
47:12
ways of responding to setbacks in life.
47:15
And that's been my experience. I think I've got better at
47:20
responding to setbacks. And also, again, why I think an
47:25
order is helpful. I've witnessed others responding
47:29
creatively to setbacks. So you just learn from each
47:32
other. It's like a collective mind or
47:33
collective heart that is constantly aspiring to get
47:39
bigger and bigger or deeper and deeper.
47:43
Question here. I.
47:46
Want to say the question from what commitment ethics
47:51
principles? I think the principles of ethics
47:55
principles, they keep the same, they don't change in time.
48:01
I think what change is the your evolution, your perception or
48:08
your relationship with these principles.
48:10
Yeah. My question is, do you think
48:14
this relationship with these principles are permanent,
48:19
impermanent, when at the same time change your life, lifestyle
48:25
and it comes automatically or it comes with the fault?
48:30
I think, I think you're right that the relationship to the
48:34
precepts is constantly changing. So one would hope we're always
48:39
deepening our understanding of what it actually means to live
48:43
those ethical principles out in one's life.
48:46
You could say that's the essence of being an order member
48:49
actually, that we're trying to clarify and deepen how we
48:55
express those principles in our lives.
48:57
I think that is always changing. I would say that does require
49:04
effort, but also it requires a kind of humility and letting go
49:13
around the precept. So it's not, it's not just
49:18
through effort that one's understanding emerges, I think.
49:21
I think effort is part of it and conditions are necessary.
49:26
So conditions might be things like reflecting on one's ethical
49:30
actions and their consequences. You might be talking about them
49:33
with other people. You have to make the effort to
49:36
actually turn towards your ethical actions, sensitivity and
49:45
that kind of thing. But if we get too tight around
49:50
making the effort and it all been down to me, maybe we missed
49:53
the fact that could be an innate sense of ethical sensitivity,
50:01
clarity, awareness, love, which the Buddhist tradition also
50:06
talks about as as being present in a human being.
50:13
I think to go any further with that we'd need quite a bit more
50:17
time, but I hope that gives a little flavour.
50:40
Yeah, you should ask Tara Palita that question because he he it's
50:45
10 years since we formally committed and and we're ordained
50:50
and everything. How have I changed?
50:56
Go on. You tell everyone how I've
50:58
changed, and then I'll tell everyone.
51:04
Or if you like, you can tell them what hasn't changed.
51:07
This is horrible. I'm putting you on the spot.
51:15
Don't worry. Yeah.
51:38
I don't know. OK, Off the top of my head, I
51:41
would say when I first met Padma Sagar, he was very visionary in
51:44
a sense of like the monastic thing, for example, like he went
51:49
all in and he but he was always, I think the the, the, the, the
51:54
ability to talk, like talk and express yourself is still there
51:57
and it's just improving and improving.
51:59
But there is something of a deepening that's happened and
52:02
also a loosening which is, I think made you stronger.
52:05
So he was always very committed, you know, like at one point he
52:09
had no bed. He had no.
52:11
Object and nothing. He was sleeping on the floor and
52:14
that was it going for it. And I was like, wow, I'm a long
52:17
way from this. But in that kind of
52:18
disintegrated and there was an element of humiliation.
52:21
There a set back. A set back leap for diet for
52:26
something much broader which keeps expanding, maybe the kind
52:29
of Lotus part of it. And I would say a depth as well.
52:32
There was a very strong focus and direction, but now it's kind
52:37
of matured into something that's got some depth to it as well and
52:40
there you go. Yeah, thank you.
52:45
I would agree with that. I think it's interesting though,
52:50
you use the image of the Lotus and I would say I've had to go
52:53
more towards the image of the ocean and live that part, like
52:57
going to the bottom. It's an interesting direction,
53:00
isn't it, going down. And I think when we met 10 years
53:03
ago, I was growing up higher and higher, and I needed to go down,
53:10
like my preceptor said, deeper and deeper.
53:13
And that meant into the dark and into the mess and the messy
53:18
parts of myself. Yeah.
53:21
OK. Yeah.
53:22
I was just wondering in relation.
53:24
To that, if you would consider that a step back or a mistake or
53:32
what you would consider to. Be a step back.
53:35
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a set back.
53:36
I'm kind of using that language loosely, but it's just what it
53:40
is, isn't it? And I, if anything, maybe the
53:45
the learning has been to just be more confident in turning
53:51
towards what's coming up and that that is the path.
53:55
So it's not that setbacks are arising and I have to get them
53:59
out the way so I can keep plowing towards enlightenment.
54:03
It's more that now these things that arise and are difficult,
54:06
that is the path and the transformation comes by coming
54:11
fully into relationship to them. And not denying those things
54:15
because it's great having vision, but sometimes the
54:18
vision, we can be so fixed on a vision and what things should be
54:22
like that we're not really in relationship to how things are.
54:27
And if we're not in relationship to how things are, then what
54:30
that vision is pointing through to can't come into, can't
54:37
manifest or come into being anyway.
54:42
Yeah. So the, the way we talk about
54:43
it, we can use different models, can't we?
54:45
There's, there's going from here to there.
54:48
And anything in between that gets in the way is a problem.
54:53
And sometimes that model's helpful, but another one is
54:56
actually what's here is simply here.
54:59
And if I turn towards that and come into relationship to that,
55:03
things can grow, things can emerge.
55:08
So we're we're at time, I'm afraid.
55:10
So there is still questions. You say we could run for another
55:13
week, probably on the same topic, but Sangadashini will
55:18
continue next week, I think. I think on this track of
55:23
commitment and looking more ethical preset.
55:26
I just want to finish by saying that, yeah, in talking about
55:30
ordination, like I said, all commitment within Buddhism is
55:34
voluntary. Definitely not trying to
55:37
advertise it and suggest that everybody has to do that or that
55:43
everybody has to change their name because your name is a kind
55:46
of limitation on your life. Because of course that's not
55:49
true. It's more like this is the
55:51
expression it's taken for me. But you're all here because
55:56
presumably you want something in your life to either change or
56:02
deepen or expand. There's some seed of something
56:08
trying to come out in you, and that needs seeing, acknowledging
56:17
and to some extent, naming. Yeah.
56:19
So. So whether it's changing your
56:20
name or not, but what is that like, what is that in you that
56:24
is trying to come out and trying to grow and to find expression
56:29
and how will you come into relationship to that?
56:32
And whether you do that here at the Buddhist centre or somewhere
56:35
else, whether you do it here and just keep coming here and never
56:42
choose the path of ordination, that's that's all great, but
56:47
just be in touch with that. What is that?
56:49
Nurture that, protect that, allow that to find more and more
56:54
full expression. And we're talking about
56:56
ordination because that's one option.
56:59
And I think it is a really good option for many people, but not
57:04
for everyone. So find your way.
57:07
But yeah, this business of naming what that is, I think is
57:12
really a value. OK.
57:16
Thank you.