Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / The Gallic Sack of Rome - Part 1
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad. Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:54 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G. Dr Rad 1:01 And I am Dr Rad. Dr G 1:03 And together we are going to sally forth into the year that was 390 BCE. Dr Rad 1:11 Oh, this is going to be such a big one, Dr G, I've already said it I predict multiple episodes in our future. Dr G 1:16 I mean, I hope so, because I feel like I haven't finished doing all of the reading for this episode, and if we're doing it in just one, I don't think I've gotta - there's too much to pack in. It's not gonna happen. Dr Rad 1:28 Could not agree more. Dr, G, could not agree more. Now, just to do a quick recap of where we were from, 391 BCE, because I feel like these years are very tied together: 391 and 390. In 391, we talked about the fact that the Gauls are really making their presence felt in the northeast of Italy, specifically. And this is really something that's been happening kind of behind the scenes, I guess, for our podcast, for centuries, by this point in time, because the Celts, of course, or the Gauls, whatever you want to call them, we're talking about a really huge culture that has been spreading out all throughout all sorts of areas of Europe. And whilst there are, of course, local differences, because we're talking about mostly tribal sort of people, the thing that seems to unite them is certain, certain aspects of their cultures, like language, maybe some art styles, maybe things like burial practices. Unfortunately, most of the written evidence we have for these cultures comes from people who are outsiders, like the Greeks and the Romans. But essentially, for centuries, they have been spreading and spreading and spreading. They've been coming into contact with the Celts. They've been coming into contact with the Etruscans. But around this time, in the early fourth century BCE, things seem to have taken a turn. Now this may be because, as I said, whilst we tend to refer to them as this sort of homogeneous group like the Celts. We are talking about different groups that are on the move for different reasons. And we know from Livy's account, even though it might not be perfectly accurate, that there are different groups who are migrating at different times. And one of the last groups, he says that cross over the Alps and into Northern Italy is the Senones. Yes, and this group apparently landed on the doorstep of an Etruscan place called Clusium last time we spoke. Dr G 3:34 Yes, dramatic. And apparently the Romans are friends with the people of Clusium, which is a surprise to us all as Roman historians, because Clusium is deep inside Etruscan territory. In a way, that means that it's quite far from places like Veii, which is that southernmost Etruscan city that the Roman Rome has now just taken a few years before. And the people to the north of they directly to the north, far more south than Clusium have been like, we don't want a bar of these Romans. So the idea that somehow Rome has springboarded over a whole bunch of people who don't care about them to be friends with the population of Clusium defies historical belief. Dr Rad 4:18 Well, I feel like that's just what they're telling the Celts, you know, they don't want to, they don't want to have a lack of unity, I suppose, in the face of the Celts, because, after all, they're not friendly enough to send an army at this point in time when the Clusi, when the people of Clusium, come to the Roman senate for help, they say, 'No, we are not going to send an army.' And after all, we talked about this last episode, why would people this far north come all the way down to Rome to ask for help? Is it because the Celts really are just like on a rampage, and they feel like the Romans being untouched are the best people to ask? This might be where that conflict with Volsinii comes into it because the Romans have been in that region relatively recently, and maybe that's what puts them in the mind of the people from Clusium. But to be honest, most modern historians think that this is crap. Dr G 4:18 I was going to say even the question about the Volsinii, I feel it's a bit problematic right now. Dr Rad 4:18 100% Dr G 4:18 That's fine. That's fine. Let's not let historical potentials and probabilities get in the way of a great story that the Romans are pretty sure they want to tell us about this. Dr Rad 4:36 Exactly, exactly. Instead, we'd rather listen to their side of things, which is that the people of Clusium come to them for help when the Gauls arrive and start attacking them, and they're like, Help. Help. There are these strange, long haired people with odd weapons that look something like a sword, who are attacking us. We just don't know what to do. Will you help us? And they say we're not going to send an army, because we're not *that* close. Boundaries. However, we will send ambassadors who will say to the Gauls, Talk to the hand. Just back off. Back off. Dr G 6:04 Yeah, you don't want to get involved with this. You don't know what you're going to be dealing with. Watch out. Dr Rad 6:10 Oh, you're telling us you want a piece of this action? Dr G 6:14 I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm a Fabian, and that might not mean anything to you, but it should. It really should. Dr Rad 6:21 We're fabulous in a terrifying way, yeah. So we've got this situation, and on top of that, there have been some signs Dr G that the Romans really should have been paying attention to, especially before they send a somewhat aggressive embassy off to Clusium. There have been multiple problems in the last couple of years, like the plague. That could be a sign that the gods are angry with you. We've had the censor of dying in office, maybe being replaced incorrectly. We've had voices divine, voices ignored, ignored, moving out in the middle of the night and talking to plebeians and then ignored. It's not been great. And then on top of that, the one man that could have saved everyone from this Celtic attack has been exiled for no very good reason. Dr G 7:13 Are we talking about Camillus? Dr Rad 7:15 Oh, am I talking about Camillus? Who else could I possibly want to even talk about Dr G, he is just that much of a freaking hero at this point in time. Dr G 7:27 The things that the Romans value, they really have me questioning everything Dr Rad 7:31 I know, I know, so Rome, whether it recognizes it or not, is in a tight spot at this moment in time. Now, before we get into the magistrates, I did leave us on a bit of a cliffhanger at the end of 391 I didn't give you the full exchange between these ambassadors, the three fabulous Fabians and the Senones, who are attacking Clusium, so I thought that might be a good lead in to the magistrates for 391 and I think you'll see why when I get to the end of this exchange. Are you ready? Dr G 8:04 I am ready. Dr Rad 8:18 Excellent. So part of the issue with this whole situation is that the fabulous Fabians, this is where they transition into the foolish Fabian stocky, because they're meant to be approaching the Gauls in a peaceful, diplomatic manner that all this trouble just gets swept under the rug. Dr G 8:48 Easy, does it? Boys? Easy, back off. Back off. You know you go your way with Gauls. Dr Rad 8:56 Unfortunately, Livy describes them as more like Gauls than Romans, which means that they are dialing the aggression up to 11. Dr G 9:06 Wow. Dr Rad 9:07 Yeah. Livy, yeah. So basically, when they extend their initial offer, which is, look, these guys are our friends. We're the Romans. Pretty awesome. Just, uh, you know, move on your way, please. The Gauls say, look, we've never heard of you guys before. Either you might not know us, but we don't know you. However, we acknowledge that you must be someone impressive if the people of Clusium are turning to you for help, because we're obviously ferocious warriors. Dr G 9:45 As you can see by our manner of dress, ie naked. Dr Rad 9:49 Exactly. We're all born naked, and the rest is drag, Dr G. Now the Gauls say we're not going to turn away from this offer of peace. Peace that you Romans have put forth on behalf of this Etruscan city. We understand the idea of seeking the diplomatic route and not just jumping straight to warfare. We appreciate that you guys didn't just come here with an army. So here's the proposition that we have for you, the people of Clusium must give us some of their land. After all, the reason that the Gauls are here is that they need it. Dr G 10:33 Yes, we are land poor. We require some of your finest grass, thank you. Dr Rad 10:38 See this is where it contradicts, like the other stories that we've heard right about why the Senones have turned up here. You know, there are all these reasons that were given for, you know, Celtic migration in this time period, but realistically, it probably does come down to the fact that a they do tend to have been a bit of a migratory people. They've spread over a very large part of Europe already. It just seems to be their way. But yeah, they're probably looking for resources of varying kinds. Dr G 11:06 They've done this before. This is not their first time around the traps. They're like, Clusium? It's just the last on a long list of people who have fallen before us. Dr Rad 11:15 That's if it even happened, because, after all, there's nothing in the archeological record to support this. Now they point out that, apparently, the people of Clusium had more land than they could possibly farm at this point in time, anyway. So they're like, it would hardly be, you know, it's not much of a wrench. Just give us some land. Dr G 11:38 Yeah, you're just sitting on it. Wasteful. Dr Rad 11:39 Yeah? Exactly. So the Gauls want to hear the response of the people of Clusium in front of the Romans, because I guess the whole idea is that the Romans are meant to be kind of like referees- Dr G 11:52 the neutral party Dr Rad 11:53 -yeah, something, yeah, exactly. And if their offer is rejected, then it's on like Donkey Kong, there's going to be a fight right then and there, because this is, it's basically like them being bought off. You know, they're like, if you can just give us the land, then it's peace. But if you don't, Dr G 12:17 Or if you, if you don't give us the land, I'll break your legs. If you give us the land, it's gonna be fine. Dr Rad 12:24 And then they say to the Romans, on top of that, we would like you to stay and watch, not just because you seem to be some sort of mutual referee in this scenario, but also because we would like you to see if war is the result just all this awesomeness. Touch this skin, baby. Touch all this skin. It's going to be quite the show. Dr G 12:47 You haven't done war until you've done Gaulish war. Dr Rad 12:51 Yeah, they're basically saying you don't understand we are the best, like Celtic warriors. Nobody can beat us. We'd like you to stay and watch the show. Dr G 13:02 You're surprised that we're here, and what I can tell you is we got here by winning. Dr Rad 13:07 Yeah. You haven't heard of us? Well, baby, our name will be on your lips after this demonstration. The Romans, of course, completely unimpressed. Dr G 13:18 Well, this is yeah, given what we know about the Romans. Dr Rad 13:22 Yeah, and this seems to have hit them the wrong way, as you can imagine, with the Romans, they're like, I'm sorry. Just who the hell do you guys think you are marching in, demanding land from the people who live there, and threatening war if they refuse. That is just rude. What the hell are you guys even doing in Etruria anyway? So things are starting to get a bit- Dr G 13:51 -okay. It's getting heated. Okay. It's going to turn into a pub fight very soon. Dr Rad 13:55 Yeah. And this is a very this is where we get the very famous response from the Gaulish people. They say, I'll tell you where our right comes from, right here. And this is where it'd be great if this podcast was actually a video, because I could pull out a sword. They point to the tip of their sword, and they're less like, this is how we come to be in Etruria. This is our freaking passport, mate. And they say, All things belong to the brave. Dr G 14:22 Ooh, I like that. The Romans are going to steal that one for sure. Dr Rad 14:27 Absolutely they are. So tempers are running high for everyone at this point in time, the Etruscans, the Romans, the Gauls, they are all at fever pitch. So naturally, they all race for weapons, because when you're angry, it's best to take action immediately. Dr G 14:48 Yes, yes, yeah, don't think about it too much. Respond with violence. Dr Rad 14:51 Definitely not. So a fight ensues. Now this might have been expected, if not for the fact that the Fabians join in the fight on the side of the people of Clusium. Dr G 15:06 Okay, well, this is perhaps not surprising that they would make that choice, given that they'd been called in by Clusium in the first place, but that does void their position of apparent neutrality. Dr Rad 15:21 Yes, this is apparently breaking a very big rule. In fact, my translation and Livy calls it the law of nations, which makes it seem incredibly formal for the early fourth century BCE. Dr G 15:35 Guys, I don't think we've got nations yet, and we're not going to have them until the 19th century. Dr Rad 15:40 Nonetheless, what they have done here is seen as breaking a very sacred trust. They are meant to be there as neutral observers, in a way you know, they're meant to be there as diplomats. They're not meant to be getting involved in any war. There's been no formal declaration. Dr G 16:01 The fight is between the Gaulish people and the people of Clusium. And it's like, it just so happens that the Romans are there today, but they're not involved, and for the Romans in particular. But it sounds like Livy's maybe extrapolating this out to all peoples of this era. Is that there is a sacred element to warfare, and the process of going to war, and the Romans have not done all of the appropriate steps to suggest that they would be the people picking up swords. Dr Rad 16:30 Absolutely. I mean, how many times have we been through the way that the Romans declare war, right? Dr G 16:36 Like it's laborious, and they've done none of the steps they've taken, no fetiales with them. This is a terrible idea, foolish Fabians. Dr Rad 16:45 Exactly. So this is just another instance of arrogance on behalf of the Romans. So before we were talking about the arrogance of, say, the military tribunes with consular power, ignoring the plebeian who came to them with the divine warning, now we're seeing the arrogance of the Fabians joining in. This is exactly the kind of stuff that is seen as inviting doom in to the city. Because not only do the Fabians join in, because that might not have been a big deal if they'd like hung in the back and just shouted moral support, but they do it in a very obvious way. Apparently, they make sure that they're standing right in the front. So that's very obvious. And then one of the brothers in particular, Quintus Fabius, charges right out, gets into a fight with one of the Gallic leaders and kills him. Dr Rad 17:31 Oh, awkward. Dr Rad 17:33 Yeah. Not only does he kill him, he then stops and decides he's going to despoil the body right then and then, right in front of everybody, right in front of everybody. Dr G 17:54 While I'm eating my salad! Dr Rad 17:57 In public? You're gonna take the weapons in public? Dr G 18:00 What? Dr Rad 18:01 Now, I guess it's because it makes it incredibly obvious, like, in the heat of battle, somebody gets killed. Yeah, you don't have time to stop and clock who it is. However, the fact that he then stops and is like, I'm going to despoil the body right here, right now. Dr G 18:19 Cover me. I need to despoil someone. Oh. Dr Rad 18:22 Word very quickly spreads throughout the Celtic forces that it was a Roman who was responsible for this very prominent Gallic chieftain being killed. So the Gauls decide that they're going to retreat. But this is not over. They now have the Romans on their list, some of the younger Gauls are saying, let's just head to Rome straight away. Let's settle this right here, right now. It actually makes me feel like there are kind of like young patricians amongst the Gauls, as well as in Rome itself, because we then have the older Gauls saying, no, no, let's do this officially. Let's send some envoys. Let's make it clear to Rome why we are upset. Let's use our words make sure that there is like a formal process happening here. The Romans need to give us these three Fabian brothers, because they have violated this law of nations, which, again, I find hilarious that the Celts are now talking in these terms. But sure, they've done something wrong, and they want these guys handed over to them, presumably to, oh, I don't know, torture and kill them. Dr G 19:41 Just ask the hard questions, you know. All right, well, this is really interesting. So it sounds to me very much like Livy has vastly more detail on this initial incident that happens between the Gauls and the Romans, because these ideas are coming up a little bit in other sources, but definitely not to this level of detail. Like Clusium is mentioned quite a lot, and we know that it is in northern Central Italy, on the west side of the Apennines, which makes sense, because the Gaulish people, from what we understand, have come over the Alps and are now occupying the whole area between the Alps and the Apennines. So that whole Po Valley region is part of where they've set up, and now they're moving south. It would seem, these three ambassadors sent to Clusium, recorded in just about every source and identified as Fabians very frequently. Also Quintus Fabius is definitely also identified as the one who kills the Gaulish leader, which causes so much upset, and that comes up in Appian. And then we have the emergence of a questionable figure who is called King Brennus? Dr Rad 21:03 Yes, this is the supposed leader of the Senones. Many questions raised about the name. It seems to be perhaps a retrojection. Dr G 21:13 It does. We do have a Brennus that is in the historical record from a sort of a century, 150 years in the future, and we think that this is a retrojected name, nevertheless, they've got a leader, so that's good. Dr Rad 21:25 And you know what? It's pronounceable. Dr, G, I'll take it Brennus, I can say it. Dr G 21:30 Brennus. Dr Rad 21:30 Yeah. Dr G 21:31 Ah Brennus, what are you up to now, Brennus? Well, and this issue with Rome having done completely the wrong thing in this situation where they were supposed to be acting neutrally allows the Gauls to take the upper hand from a sort of sacred perspective and a legal perspective. But that doesn't mean that they're not against intimidatory tactics, sure. So they send their biggest, strongest, most imposing Gauls as their delegation of ambassadors to Rome just to sort of be like. This is what we all look like. This is what it would be like if you were on the battlefield with us. We only eat grain and terrible beer, and we're fighting fit and ready for anything. Are you sure, Rome, that you still want to uphold this insult against us? Dr Rad 22:25 Yeah, well, that's exactly where Livy takes this. When the Gauls voice their unhappiness whilst the Senate put their head in their hands and go, Oh my god, the Fabians, they do not condone what those guys did by any means, but I guess they are aware of what would happen to them if they handed them over to the Gauls for punishment. They're so elite, the Romans cannot possibly agree to this request, but the Senate, also in Livy don't want to be blamed if by sheltering these privileged, upper class little twats. They don't want to be blamed if a war results, because they have taken the side of people who clearly done the wrong thing. And so in Livy's account, they actually seek the opinion of the people. Dr G 23:23 Interesting. So in terms of we're getting into the territory now where, in my source material, and I'm so excited for this, the note in the Loeb edition of Diodorus for this year, because we're heading straight into this 391-390 crossover, is that Diodorus Siculus seems to be the most robust and accurate of the sources that we have for this time period. Dr Rad 23:49 Unbelievable. How did it come to this? Dr G 23:51 So while I appreciate what Livy might be saying, I'm going to hold on to the nuanced hope that Diodorus Siculus is going to come through for me with these details, because he does say that the Senate gets together about this issue, they understand the severity of it, and they do agree to hand over the Fabians, because there's really no other path out from this. There's been a grave offense against the gods, as much as anything else, the right thing to do is to hand these guys over. It's not going to be pleasant. The Fabians aren't going to be happy, but it needs to be done. And then the father of the three brothers who were the ambassadors stands up and says, I am not going to let you send all three of my sons off to the Gauls. He gets in front of the people and persuades the people to overturn the senatorial decision, which Diodorus tells us is the first moment in Rome's history where the people go against a senatorial suggestion because - what we understand about how the Senate operates is that they don't provide a legal avenue for anything. What they do is they provide advice. It's just that you always follow their advice. Dr Rad 23:51 Kind of like advice while staring down the barrel of a gun. Dr G 23:51 Yeah, I'm going to suggest to you that you really want to do this thing right now, and you look at the shotgun, point it at your face, and you're like, it's a great plan, and I'm on board. I love it. I love everything about it. Yeah, I think what you've done here is really unique and special. This is not one of those moments. It seems to be something that divides the people as well, and creates a division moment for them, where they potentially go against the Senate for the very first time. And I find this a fascinating moment for the Romans to be having in their internal politics, because they've been fraying around the edges for a little while. Despite their success with Veii, they've been on struggle street in terms of the pestilence and what appears to be their economic issues that are just ongoing. It's just not a great time. And now we've got this internal wavering between, how do the mechanisms of tradition of governance operate? And now things are going to get worse for Rome, Dr Rad 26:22 Absolutely, because this is where I lead into the magistrates for 390 regardless of what we think exactly happened. And I love your account that, to me, kind of actually makes more sense. And we have seen instances like this before, where a man has gone before the people, and, you know, begged them to spare his children based on the achievements of his family, the contributions they have made, etc, etc. This is not the first time that that kind of thing would have happened in Rome. That kind of stuff mattered. So that kind of makes sense to me. I give you points, Diodorus Siculus. But regardless of what happened or how the Fabians were saved, what really tips things over and how we lead into the magistrates for 390 is that not only are the Fabians spared the fate of being handed over to King Brennus, but they somehow end up as military tribunes with consular power in 390 BCE, this is where I would love to talk about who the magistrates are, Dr, G. Dr G 27:25 Well, I'm glad you've brought it up. So we've got this idea that in some of our other sources, Appian in particular, mentions this idea is that not only does Rome acknowledge the wrongdoing of the fabii, but instead of handing them over to the Gauls, they refuse to do that and then go on to elevate those three Fabians into the position of military tribunate With consular power for the next year, so that in the next instance of violence, it is legitimized and anything is now possible, they're going to arm those guys to the hilt to go back to Clusium, or wherever the Gauls happen to be, and rightfully run them through with swords rather than, whoops, I was supposed to be an ambassador. Oh, my bad. I'm wearing the wrong hat right now. Let me just change that. Dr Rad 28:19 I was, I was just trying to stretch my arm with a spear in it, and the spear just kind of fell, yeah, and launched itself through your groin. Sorry about that. Dr G 28:29 Yeah. I mean, it was an accident. Let me just put on my military tribune with consular power hat for a moment. Oh! Dr Rad 28:38 Unbelievable. And understandably, of course, the Gauls see this as, hello wound, meet salt. Dr G 28:46 Yeah, the Gauls are not happy about that. Fair enough. I wouldn't be either. But I think this means we are now officially up to 390 BCE. Dr Rad 28:54 We are officially in 390 BCE now. Dr G 29:28 Well, we do have a range of magistrates to get through. So let me take you on a journey. You can guess the first three military tribunes with consular power. It's Quintus Fabius Ambustus, Kaeso Fabius Ambustus and Numerius Fabius Ambustus, the foolish Fabian, and one of them still with like a sore hand from all the stabbing like Ow. We may also have Quintus Sulpicius Longus. Quintus Servilius Fidenas, who we have previously seen as a military tribune, and Publius Cornelius Maluginensus. So all of these names should be familiar, except for Longus, who I don't think has appeared before. They're all patrician, keeping in that grand old idea of sure military tribunes with consular power is open to the plebs, but nobody ever puts themselves forward. I don't understand! Dr Rad 30:28 Well. I love, actually, the fact that Livy says about the election of the Fabians that wealth and power mattered even more to the people, and that's why they got elected. Dr G 30:39 Oh... Dr Rad 30:39 Livy, what? What are you talking about? What have the conflict of the orders even been about? It's like all these moments where he talks about how the plebeians get swoony whenever they're confronted with the very bluest of blood. Dr G 30:54 I just go weak at the knees. Yeah, I'm all gorgonzola dolce. Yeah. Look, it's tough. We also have surprise, surprise, a dictator. Dr Rad 31:06 I don't know if we should say his name. I feel like it ruins it. Dr G 31:12 We'll leave that for you to guess everybody. No, it's Marcus Furius Camillus. Dr Rad 31:17 Ah, he's back, back, back, back, back again. Dr G 31:21 It's his big ticket year. His master of the horse is Lucius Valerius - we think - Poplicola. Now, he was previously a military tribune in 394. We have seen this guy, he's got a little bit of experience. Obviously, he likes horses, or -because we're not sure - it could be Lucius Valerius Potitus, also a man of great experience, was consul in 393, 392, and military tribute in 414, 406, 403, 401, and 398. Dr Rad 31:54 Experienced people out of the way, Dr G 31:56 Yeah, we don't know which one. It's definitely a Valerius. Dr Rad 31:59 Well, and this would kind of make sense, because we've talked about the fact that it's possible that the Fabians are showing up in here because of an earlier source babies picked up, and therefore, maybe we've got some families sometimes being inserted into the history of this period, maybe when they actually didn't have anything to do with it. It's hard to know or exaggerating their role, perhaps, although I don't know why you'd want your ancestors to be these three douchebags. But also, with the Valerii, there is also an earlier source from this clan as well that Livy sometimes is relying on. So again, it would kind of make sense to see Valerii here as well. Not that I'm saying that they're making it up, but again, to highlight their family's role in this, to make sure that it's remembered, perhaps it makes sense. Dr G 32:51 That's right. I mean, if you can't be Camillus, attach yourself to him Dr Rad 32:56 Very tightly. Ride those coattails, baby. Dr G 33:00 Literally, we also have some pontifices named which I think is it's always a good time for me when we get in - we've got some named religious folk. Dr Rad 33:10 I thought you'd be excited. Dr G 33:12 I am, but I'm not so sure if I'm excited about the names. A potential Marcus Folius Flaccinator. Oh, the Flaccinator! Dr Rad 33:22 A priest who's a Flaccinator? I haven't heard of such a thing. Dr G 33:27 He's just flacking around here and there. Anyway. His name comes up quite a few times in different sources. So it seems to be real. We also have another person, Gaius or Kaeso, Fabius Dorsuo, which does not sound like a Roman name to me - Dr Rad 33:43 very strange Dr G 33:44 But let us not ask too many questions about that. Dr Rad 33:46 And a patrician? Dr G 33:47 There are various spellings on that as well. Yeah, and a patrician, yeah? Well, he is a Fabian, so I suppose he has that going for him. Dr Rad 33:54 I know. But it's such a weird cognomen. Dr G 33:56 It is. What is going on? Not entirely sure. We also have a reference to an augur or a pontifex, not entirely sure. Quintus or Servilius, Priscus or Structus Fidenas. This is how little we know his name. His name is, Servilius. All the other names seem to be up for question, Servilius, son of Publius, who is succeeded by somebody who we know even less of their name, it might be Furius Fusus, but what's their praenomen? No idea. And we have some other notables as well who aren't in magisterial positions, but we should probably just keep an eye out for a guy called Quintus Caedicius, Brennus, obviously, of the Gauls, Cominius Pontius and Marcus Manlius, also known as Marcus Mallius. Dr Rad 34:59 Macho, macho man. Dr G 35:01 Oh yeah, the things he's gonna do just to wait. I love it. These are the folk that I have on deck for this banner year of 390 BCE, also known in popular culture as the Sack of Rome by the Gauls. Dr Rad 35:20 Ooh, there we go. Well, Livy is definitely leaning into the drama of this moment. You know, I said before, when we were talking in a previous episode that he kind of skimmed over what seems to be a fairly major moment for Rome, and that is Camillus supposed trial and his exile and all of that kind of stuff. But that's because he wants to get to this moment. Dr, G, I mean, wants to. I'm sure it was shameful, but he, he certainly wants it to balance out his narrative. Dr G 35:48 I just don't know why you wouldn't draw emphasis to all of the things that goes wrong for Camillus, because surely that will put everything on a slightly different balance in the end, in terms of his narrative. Dr Rad 36:00 Don't worry. Dr G 36:01 But, but I don't know where he's going with his narrative, because I haven't read him. So? Dr Rad 36:10 Camillus will get his moment in the sun again, don't you worry. So Livy is definitely building up a sense of impending doom as we get closer and closer to the Sack of Rome by the Gauls. And the way that he tells the story of 390 it's very much a big narrative. That's the sense that we get. So Rome is now facing this enemy that they know almost nothing about, which is a very unusual situation for them, because they are generally fighting people that they can throw stones at Dr G 36:41 Yeah, the guy next door, that guy, I know how he swings. I've seen it a million times, and I want my sandals back. Dr Rad 36:48 How many times have we traded sandals? It's getting crazy. Now, unfortunately, this whole magistrate list that we've just gone through highlights a very odd choice for Rome at this moment, but they're facing an unknown enemy with strange weapons, and yet they don't choose a dictator straight away, even Livy thinks this is cray-cray. Dr G 37:16 Guys, you got an enemy on the doorstep, and what are you doing about it? Military tribunes with consular power will do. Dr Rad 37:23 Yeah. Let's have about six or seven or eight guys in charge. That seems legit. Dr G 37:29 Could it be that they're not expecting the Gauls to do what the Gauls do? Dr Rad 37:34 Look it's possible. And this is where I might highlight something that is actually going to make your 'Meanwhile in Sicily' segment very worthwhile for everybody. So we have had this whole backstory about the foolish Fabians, the people of Clusium, etc, etc. Some modern historians, however, have suggested that it is actually an accident of history that the Gauls, perhaps the Senones, end up on Rome's doorstep, that in fact, they had been hired to act as mercenaries by the tyrant Dionysus. Wait, is it Dionysius? Dr G 38:19 Dionysius of Syracuse. Dr Rad 38:19 Dionysius of Syracuse, and they've been hired by this guy to be mercenaries whilst he's trying to, I don't know, fight people of Krypton down in Southern Italy. Dr G 38:30 We're gonna have a pincer movement, essentially. What's going to happen is, you'll move from the north, while I come up from the south. And what we'll do is we'll wedge them, and then we'll steal all the Roman pizza and go home. Dr Rad 38:44 Yeah. So maybe they were actually on the move, and the reason that they were heading, you know, so far south, is because they have a job to do, and the sacking of Rome is just something that they happen to do on the way that there's actually no beef in particular, not first really paid, not really and that might explain why the Romans don't automatically pick a dictator at this moment in time, because whilst they might be aware that there are more aggressive Gauls than usual on the Rome causing some problems. They might not have been anticipating an attack. You see it all heads up, Dr G. Dr G 39:26 Well, and I think from a practical level, if I'm putting my 'What if I pretend I was a military historian' hat on, I'm definitely not. So this could go badly. Military historians, please contact me and comment on this episode. But where Clusium is, we're talking a good sort of, I think, about 100 kilometers north of Rome. So definitely, in terms of what is going on geographically for the Gauls to move as far south as they do to come to. Rome's doorstep, which, spoilers everybody, that's what's going to happen. They have to have gone through substantial amounts of Etruscan territory, plus other Italic peoples who are in contact and live in those areas as well, and to basically have had the agreement that they can move through those lands freely and take what they need. Because we are told, Diodorus Siculus tells us that the Gaulish force, equates to, by the time gets to Rome, it's about 70,000 strong. Dr Rad 40:34 Yes. Dr G 40:35 We are not talking about a small band of nude Gaulish warriors. We're talking about 70,000 people armed coming through substantial tracts of Italian land to get to Rome. And to do that, they would have had to strip the land bare, just from a logistics perspective, to keep themselves alive. You know, how do you eat? How do you fuel? What are you going to do? How do you take all of your stuff with you? People are either letting you through and letting you strip part of their fields, being like, I don't want to encounter those guys. Please, just take what you need and go. Dr Rad 41:12 And for God's sake, put some clothes on. Dr G 41:14 Please. Also this tunic, I made it just for you. And the idea that nobody would be resisting them, I think is part of the bigger question that I have about the narrative at this point. Because if they're not encountering any resistance, what does that tell us about how things are going for the Etrurians [i.e. Etruscans], by and large, across the board, because it seems like we've talked about Rome having this sort of shocking time of it's not a prosperous time. That also seems to be true for the Etruscans. What we do know from archeological records is that trade goods have really dried up, so people aren't buying and selling in the same quantities that they were 50-70 years ago. So is Etruscan territory just ripe for the picking, and you can just take an army through there, and nobody's gonna stand in your way. I don't know. Dr Rad 42:05 Well, and to build into that larger picture, whilst I am by no means an expert on what is happening for the Celts at this point in time, I believe that there has, it's mooted that there have been some problems for some of the Celtic groups that we're talking about, and that some of them have become sort of more militaristic. And this, obviously, is probably also driving some of the reasons for migration at this point in time. And it is thought, I think, that the Senones, if it is indeed this group, that the Romans are encountering, are one of those groups that has become like a slightly more aggressive breed of Celts, and they have actually come from what is now modern day Champagne, I believe. Dr G 42:53 Hmmm, one of the great theories that is put forward in one of the ancient sources is that the Gauls move south because they are too hot. They just need to cool off somehow. Let's, let's go south. And I hate to break it to them, but it's going to be a long way south before they hit somewhere cool. Dr Rad 43:10 I was gonna say, yeah. Dr G 43:11 It would have been cooler if they went back over the Alps. Dr Rad 43:14 Yeah, Italy is not the place. Dr G 43:16 No. Dr Rad 43:16 Particularly Southern Italy. Dr G 43:18 Yeah. So I feel like they took a wrong turn, maybe got a bit lost, and they're like, I'm trying to find somewhere cool. Dr Rad 43:24 Yeah, but this is not the narrative that Livy is building up here. I mean, it's kind of funny in a way, that the Romans are taking this path where it's like, it's all our fault, when actually it might have been kind of a weird accident of history, but that's not the way they're playing it. What Livy tells me is that now that we have these military tribunes with consular power, half of which are made up of foolish Fabians, things do not get any better. In 390 BCE, they are no wiser now that they are magistrates. Dr G 44:01 Damn. Dr Rad 44:02 Yeah. Dr G 44:02 I thought, I thought wisdom came with the position. Dr Rad 44:05 Automatically, politicians become smarter as soon as they are given an official title. Instead, these guys are preparing for war, but they're conducting the levy of troops like they're about to just go trotting out across the field and fight the Volscians, just like they always do. They don't seem to be preparing for anything extraordinary, in spite of the fact that they have been explicitly told to their faces that the Senones are awesome. Dr G 44:37 Well, this is what happens when you don't listen, when people tell you the truth and you just don't hear it. Dr Rad 44:43 Yeah, now on top of that, the Gauls are, of course, as we've said, even more riled up than they would normally be, because they have found out that the Fabians, instead of being punished in any way, have in fact, been rewarded, it would seem, by being given. In an official state position and leading the Roman people so they could not be any angrier at this moment in time. Dr G 45:07 It's, it's an insult of a high magnitude. Not only did you not handle these guys ever, but you've rewarded them. And now, now what? Dr Rad 45:16 Yeah, and this is where we get a little racist aside from Livy, where he says that the Gauls were naturally prone to uncontrollable anger slash rage. Dr G 45:26 Wow. Dr Rad 45:28 Now this is something that comes up in a number of Graeco-Roman accounts, the idea that these barbaric people, I'm using my flesh rabbits here, Dr G, are prone to extreme emotions, one of which is anger. Dr G 45:43 Yes, wow. And we can tell this because obviously they don't have moderatio. They don't know how to, you know, balance things out, yeah? Dr Rad 45:52 Because clearly the Romans are so good at that. Dr G 45:54 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Dr Rad 45:57 Yeah. So their rage is fueling them at this point in time, and they are on a quick march, which is super speeded after all the anger, because they are absolutely spoiling for a fight with the Romans. They just breeze through all the cities in between where their main camp, obviously was, and Rome itself. They do, of course, cause consternation as they go, but the Gauls make it very clear to everybody as they're rushing past, can't stop, can't speak, Sorry, can't chat. We're dealing with Romans. They're the people we've really got a problem with here. Yes, I would like that bread. Yes, I am going to steal your sheep. But don't you worry, not you. I have a problem with I'm not angry with you, but I angry with you. I'm angry with Romans. Dr G 46:38 I'm having some emotions, and I'm directing them accordingly. Out of my way. Don't make me hurt you. Dr Rad 46:44 Yeah. Now the Romans, of course, had had plenty of signs that trouble was coming, but what really- Dr G 46:46 All the people fleeing from the north being like the Gauls are coming! Dr Rad 46:57 What's really freaking the Romans out, though, at this moment in time is the speed of the calls. They're like, this is like some sort of ancient blitzkrieg. Has someone given them crystal meth? How are they moving so fast? Dr G 47:12 Well, I suppose, maybe they don't have a lot to carry. Dr Rad 47:16 Now, the Romans have tried to get their own army together as quickly as possible, but they actually don't get very far outside of Rome before they encounter the Gallic forces. So they meet at this now very famous place, Dr G where the Tiber and the Alia rivers converge about 11 miles outside of the city. This is where the encounter that is going to remain imprinted on Roman brains for centuries is going to take place. So we're meeting at what will become known as the Battle of the Alia, the Gauls are already there and waiting, Dr G, they've set themselves up. Well, they're making lots of noise because they are barbarians, wink, wink. They can't help themselves. What are the foolish Fabians going to do next? I think we might have to leave it on a cliffhanger and find out next episode. Dr G 48:18 Nooooo! To position Alia. So if we think of a being really quite close to Rome, just a little bit to the north. Dr Rad 48:28 Yep Dr G 48:29 Alia is north of Rome, but east of they right, so a little bit further over, because the Tiber sort of wraps around, and the Alia is a tributary that feeds into it. So I think we're in for a fascinating time. I'm looking forward to our next episode together, but before then, it must be time for the Partial Pick. Dr G 48:54 It definitely it's time for the Partial Pick. I just wasn't sure if there was going to be a 'Meanwhile in Sicily'. Dr G 49:01 Oh, well, I feel like I'm going to save my 'Meanwhile in Sicily,' perhaps for the last episode. Dr Rad 49:02 That sounds fair. Dr G 49:03 Yeah. Dr Rad 49:03 All right, then it is indeed time, Dr G, for the Partial Pick. So, Dr G, what is the Partial Pick all about? Dr G 49:18 The partial pick is about judging Rome as they deserve to be judged. Dr Rad 49:24 I feel like we've been pretty judgy this episode already. Dr G 49:28 Just you wait the judgment begins for real. Now, they are capable of winning 50 golden eagles. Is they amazing in every single category, there are five categories. They get 10 each if they do amazingly well. So our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 49:49 I would say not. Dr G 49:50 We haven't seen any military-i-ness yet. We've seen preparedness for military encounters, but not an actual fight, unless we count what the ambassadors did. Dr Rad 50:01 I was gonna say Dr G 50:02 It's not military, but they were supposed to be neutral. Dr Rad 50:05 They were, but I was gonna say for military clout. Do we count the fact that one of the Fabians managed to kill a Gallic chieftain? I mean, sure he wasn't supposed to, but he did. Probably no. Dr G 50:18 No. I'm - yes - I feel like we're on a zero here. Dr Rad 50:22 Let's not be like the Romans reward bad behavior. Dr G 50:24 Yeah? Let's not. The second category is diplomacy. If we could give minus marks, this would be the time. Dr Rad 50:32 I was gonna say, this would be the episode to give them minus marks, yeah? Dr G 50:36 So a clear zero. Expansion? Dr Rad 50:40 Most decidedly not, they're going to be lucky to hold on to their own city, let alone anywhere else. Dr G 50:45 Welp. Virtus? Dr Rad 50:48 Ooooo again. I feel like minus points might - Dr G 50:51 I was gonna to say, whatever the Fabians did, it was bad enough that even the Romans agreed that it shouldn't have been done. Dr Rad 50:57 I'm sure somewhere out there, somewhere. Camillus is being very virtuous, but we don't know what he's doing. Dr G 51:07 Well, I mean, he's apparently in Ardea, of which, you know, not the worst place to be in the world, but not near Rome, and that is going to become an issue in future episodes. And lastly is the Citizen Score. Dr Rad 51:21 Well, again, I feel like it's pretty bad, although the citizens seem also blissfully unaware of the real threat to them at this moment in time. Dr G 51:33 And if we follow Diodorus Siculus, this is a moment where the people stand up to the Senate. Dr Rad 51:39 That's true. That's true. Does that make, but that's the thing, they kind of make the unfortunately, in this situation, they actually make a terrible decision. Dr G 51:49 Proving, once again, why the senators should be in charge. And you know what? And also they're persuaded to do it by the Fabians' dad, and so it's not like they've gone out and being like this is a terrible thing of their own bat. They've been persuaded that this is a terrible thing by the guy who is most emotionally invested in the ongoing continuation of his son's lives. Dr Rad 52:12 And also he persuades them, I believe, by drawing on just how fabulous the Fabians have been all this time they're like, guys, like, look at the family I'm from. I mean, come on, we're lucky. Two of us survived. You can't kill more of us. Dr G 52:29 Now we've tried so hard to repopulate. Dr Rad 52:32 We've done such an amazing job. Here we are, like, 80 years later, standing strong. Dr G 52:37 Proving once again, that we should not send our men out by themselves. Dr Rad 52:41 You know what? This is, again, it's like a Krypton thing, you know, like, the further away from Rome we get, the worse we become. Dr G 52:49 Terrible. Terrible. Dr Rad 52:50 Yeah. And so this is the thing. It's, it's kind of one of the this is where I actually kind of don't believe Diodorus this account, in one sense. I mean, regardless of whether your patrician are probably in family matters to Rome, sure. So it's possible that what he said happened happened, but I still feel like it actually is far more likely that the Senate are protecting some of their own. Dr G 53:14 Hmm, yeah. Well, it wouldn't - we would be unsurprised by that. Dr Rad 53:18 Yeah. I mean rich and privileged people trying to make sure that other rich and privileged people don't pay the price for a really terrible thing that they've done. Who's ever heard of that happening in history? Dr G 53:33 What? The consequences of my own actions? Dr Rad 53:36 Young patricians being absolute douchebags and just getting away with it. Dr G 53:42 So I get to keep my Ferrari. You do. Dr Rad 53:45 Yeah, Dad, all I did was kill a Gallic chieftain. You can't take away my time on my Game Boy. Game Boy, wow. Really dating myself with that reference, aren't I? Xbox. I'm going to edit in Xbox. Dr G 54:01 So I think for the citizen score, I think we might be sitting at maybe a five, because, Dr Rad 54:05 Oh god, that's generous. Dr G 54:07 Well, they haven't been directly attacked themselves yet, and they don't realize how bad it is, and they have taken some like affirmative action for their own power, potentially being like, you know what, Senate, no, we're gonna put those guys and save them. Dr Rad 54:20 Yeah, I know, but still, like the lingering effects of plague, the economic downturn, can it really be as good as a five? Dr G 54:28 I don't know, but it's certainly, certainly not terrible. Dr Rad 54:31 I feel like it's more a three. I mean, Gauls are rampaging. They might not be in Rome yet, but they are rampaging. Dr G 54:37 Look, what you can't see, you can't fear. Four, I say. Dr Rad 54:43 Duh, all right, fine, four, which means Dr, G, if my math is correct, four plus zero plus zero plus zero plus zero equals four golden eagles for Rome. Dr G 54:56 Wow, yeah, look, you had me stunned when you've said, 'If my maths works,' I was like, there's nothing to do maths on. There was only one score. I see what you did there? Rome, yeah, look, I don't anticipate it getting any better next year either. Dr Rad 55:14 Let's face it, the citizen score is gonna drop. Dr G 55:17 It's gonna go down. Dr Rad 55:18 Alright, Dr G, well, I can't wait to get into our next episode on 390 BCE, and believe us, listeners, you do not want to miss this. Dr G 55:35 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com. We offer a huge thank you to you, if you're one of our illustrious Patreon supporters. If you enjoy the show, we'd love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We are on Ko-Fi for one or for ongoing donations or Patreon. Of course, our latest book, 'Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire', is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don't want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome's glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims With 'Your Cheeky Guide to The Roman Empire.' Transcribed by https://otter.ai