Latest / Cultivator Podcast / Episode 12 - Boots on Turkish Ground
Transcript
- Justin Stice: Yeah. Hey, welcome to the Cultivator Podcast. We are so excited that you guys are hanging out with us today. so I just got back from kind of a trip of a lifetime. I got to go with my dad on a trip to go visit the seven churches of Revelation and Patmos Island, where John wrote the book of Revelation. And yeah, it was a lot. it was a great and it good. and so I just we thought today we might just have a little time talking about that and these guys we haven't actually I got to hang out and see these guys, so we're gonna use this podcast to catch up, ask questions, and all the things. Is that cool? Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things that a couple of years ago when I went, like the it the places where it happened make it real real. Right. I mean, it's like it is not an abstract conversation about the Paul's letter to the Ephesians when you're in Ephesus. Like this is that place and that place. And and so I just thought it would be good since it's fresh on your mind to just kind of talk with you about that, kind of how that influenced your understanding of scripture. Ultimately, this is a living book. It was written to a people at a time, but it also translates across generations. But having those experiences in those places can really cause this to come to life. It can I mean, I know with me when I was there, it really renewed a passion for understanding, for reading. And so I just thought it'd be good while it's fresh on your mind to just to have some of those conversations. Yeah, I love that. So a little bit just of background, for those of you don't know, Justin's dad's a pastor. He is at a church here in a little town outside of Lubbock and is just awesome at it. He just loves people really, really well. And so they got to do this trip together and Justin was really excited about it. And so kind of carrying on the legacy of of Lloyd Stice and spend some time with his aging father. So I mean he's gonna have a lot of emotions on this. So but we wanted to kind of get it while it was a little bit fresh. So Scott jump in here and ask what questions you want to ask or put whatever you want on it. my. okay I'm just start I'll start with a relational question. Like how did you Come to see your dad in a new way. Man. I'm sorry. No, it's right. Well, here here's one of the things that I know. As I'm getting older, one of the things that's dawning on me is that my children, they don't know the high school me, they don't know the college me. There's a lot of my life they have never seen or heard about. And I want them to know. And I yet I don't have they're busy in their lives building their world, that sort of thing. So I don't have that kind of access to them to be sharing those sort of things. And so I'm just assuming that on this trip there were some things that you saw fresh and new about your dad, especially maybe even his spiritual life. Yeah. I I think honestly there's a lot of reminders. I don't know if it's just my personality or why I I've always growing up I was always curious about my dad. My dad was my best friend for a lot growing up. And like I mean this growing up I'd go and ask him questions before anybody else. I remember one of the times in high school I went to my dad I was like, Hey Dad, how how do you know if you're in love? And he pointed me went to scripture and we talked about it and looked at it. And so but but even beyond that, there was just always times I would ask him a lot about his childhood. I'd ask him a lot about what it was like when he grew up. And so there's I've always gotten these stories, but you've been able to hear again and talk about those kinds of things. So these are the things that just kind of blow my mind about my dad and then it it helps me shape and understand who he is. And I'll get to this w in in a second, is that grew up Sharecropper's son, right, up in the paynehandle, Texas. And they didn't have like tr they lived out outside of town, out on the farm, kind of outside of there's town called Wellington. and out there's little river outside of Wellington, there's Quail, all these small towns, right? Grew up there, they didn't have electricity in their house until I think he was in second grade, third grade. then they never got running water in the house. and so and they so and they had a four and they have a four room house, and there was eight of in a four room house that lived in and so he tells stories of like in the summer they would just l sleep out on the front porch. his grandfather, on his dad's side lived with him their whole life. He was a bachelor, old bachelor, that spouse had passed away, and so he was always there. His name was Dad Atz. And so just getting to hear those kind of stories. We talked a lot about his growing up and childhood and what that was like. he was kind of the Mr. Everything, right? In high school, that was just he was just an amazing athlete. I mean, Mr. Class President, all those things, right? I mean, he was in, I think he was a junior in high school, he started driving the school bus. So like as a junior in high school, he would drive the school bus. If my wife is watching this, she's freaking out right now that a junior in high school would be driving the school bus. Yeah, and so small town, just all those things. But then he gets out and man, this is what's cool is he gets out, goes to WT and goes a semester, and then he decides, you know what, it's not from me. He's like, Vietnam's going on and probably gonna get drafted anyway, so he just goes ahead and enlists in the army. Okay. and all this begins to kind of shape this thing of like, dude, my dad is one of the toughest dudes I know. And and we're sitting here, my dad's gonna turn eighty this next month. And he's been averaging about three thousand steps a day. Well, on this trip that we were on, he started averaging like thirteen thousand steps a day. He didn't like complain once. Didn't whatever. You you had to like almost help him like, No, I got this or I'll do this. He was like I it there's just a a a grit and a toughness. But I know it comes from a childhood that I have no idea to. I mean, they they were picking cotton. Like whoever w never you everybody went out in the fields, grandma, mom, sister, li everybody's out in the fields picking cotton, doing this. And so that just builds a gritness and a determination that I don't No of I I know I don't have probably at times. And so but just seeing that still in his life now when we're walking through these cities and walking, I mean, a long ways and he's had two knee replacements, had all this stuff. I mean, and so y I saw that part of him. Like I know he's tough. Like when we went to Disneyland a couple years and he passed a freaking kidney stone in the parking lot, I I was like Yeah. Pretty tough. Pretty tough. So but but getting to see that but then I here I heard a lot about his his calling. I hadn't heard this story in a long time. and what's this is how it ta ties into this trip. So he ta he tells a story about he'd been kind of fighting the call into vocational ministry for a long time. And we were in a church in Amarello and long story basically the pastor's sick and The pastor tells me to go get him and he's my dad's freaking out and he does like man I I don't yeah, I know he's gonna ask me to preach. I don't know what to do, I can't wanna preach. Well, the pastor ultimately says, Hey, if you'll do everything except the sermon, I'll take care of that. Well, does that, then that night they have an old Wesley tent meeting, revival. You know, they had a somebody come in and and preaching. And the guy that night Well, here's the thing, back up. Earlier that morning he fell e like he heard the Lord, one of the most times he ever like really felt like it was God, he's like, you're neither hot nor cold because you're either I'm gonna switch out of my mouth. Right? And I was like, Okay. Well later that evening this revival preacher comes and he preaches out of Revelation three, mm-hmm. That church that that letter to Laodicea. Right. and so that night is the night that my dad kind of just surrendered his life. He had already s but to like ministry, vocational ministry. Gotcha. I in that. And so then that began to shape and form the rest of our my life, his life. Like he had to go back and finish his undergrad. and he's forty at this time he was forty two. Right? Had a amazing career as a paint salesman. He'd been doing it for over twenty years. but went back, felt he was supposed to go back into the local church. goes back to get his undergrad and then then he we go to Kentucky where he goes to seminary. and so to hear him he shared a little bit that story actually when we were in Laodicea. And so he he kinda shared this story of calling with you or with the whole group. So we were we was a we were on a group with tour about thirty people. Cool. and so he tell he told the story of his kind of surrender to ministry in that. and he's like, you know, for me it was I felt called to this local church, but he says, all of us are called to one way or another. but it was just really cool to hear him tell that story again. Yeah. About how like he was able to surrender that call and what how God would work in his life. And how it just shaped him and formed him. that he had his whole life he'd been around the church. He'd always been there and kind of was it was a checking off the box kind of thing. He's like, Man, but there's I knew there was something more that God had for me. and so went into that. So what is cool though is he's sitting there kind of telling the story at Laodicea and you're looking and from Laodicea you can look up on the hill and you see Heropolis. And it's like right up there and there's like this looks like snow. But it's not snow and it's this whole kind of mountainside that's covered with this white like calcium deposit whatever stuff. And it's where they would take the water, build an aqueduct, for it to go from Heropolis down to Colossae or from to Laodicea. And it makes sense whenever they talk about inducing vomiting. I'm gonna spit you on my mouse, right? Because that was kind of the saying for the people there. It was like, hey, the only thing the water good for in Laodicea. Is to induce vomiting. Well, it's the water that they had brought over from Heropolis that man, it was just disgusting. You couldn't do anything with it. but then also in Laodicea, you look up to the mountains and there was Colossae. Right? So that the the Colossians church was right up there and it's up in the mountains, known for the the the spring water, right? The water that's coming off the mountains and cold refreshing. And so all of a sudden this that that verse is about you being neither hot nor cold. about to spit you to my mouth makes a whole lot more way more sense than I remember my young youth pastor self would say if you're not on fire for Jesus he's gonna vomit you out of his mouth I mean and so like it it was just it brings so much context and understanding and it was crazy because John very was intention in every single one of these letters, how intentional he was about the context, the setting, the the what was going on in the city. That was going on, but then also because in that letter to Laodicea he also addresses the I sal like the salve. And he's like, I'll give you salve or whatever. Well they were known for this medicinal I salve. Okay. Right? They were also known for their banking system. I mean, at one time they were so rich they had an earthquake and they like told Rome that, Hey, we're good, we got it. We don't need your money. But John addresses each of these issues to this church where they were giving getting their identity and their independence and they didn't need God for anything. Mm-hmm. And they were neither bringing healing or refreshing. Yeah. So he's like, I I I don't I got much use for you. Yeah. So that was became a a really live that was kind of one of the highlights for me of that whole trip. Well, and it it's fun 'cause Justin, you had a lot of things coming together at the same time, right? Like you had your context of scripture, but then your context of your dad and learning that and you know, that's one of the things that we're pretty adamant around these parts is context is what, you know, what does the scripture what did it say and now what does it say and those things. And I I think it's I think it's important for you and I'm sure you'll unpack it over the course of the next, you know, weeks and months, but I mean I think those experiences are important for you to know who you are because you are who you are because of that four room house in Wellington, outside of Wellington, right? And then I think sometimes when we're younger and fiery youth pastors and know everything, we don't do the hard work of kind of going inward and dealing with our own stuff and kind of unpacking maybe why God wired us a certain way or put certain experiences in our lives. And man, I'm just glad that you got to kinda unpack that. with your dad and kinda have those experiences. That's that's really cool. Well one of the relational part that I got to really see with my dad. Like I know my dad's an phenomenal like pastor. Like when I say pastor like shepherding, being there, seeing people, he's just so so gifted and so good at that. And I saw it just in right in front of me. One of the other ladies on the tour, she was from Montana I believe, and she had lost her husband this past year. And about I think ten years ago she had lost a son. And so my dad just straight up just ministered to her. a lot of the trip but just I remember I was just sitting beside them a lot of times and just heard how my dad was just really intentional and how really like he was very caring towards her and very loving, just very shepherding pastoring. I was like he doesn't even know her. We're never gonna probably see this person again whatever. But like that's just who he is. Right? Like you I've learned from you a lot of times the person themselves is the gift. Mm-hmm. Right? And he is the gift of being a pastor, a shepherder. and so it was really cool. Like I've always known that I've always But it was really cool. It's been a while since I've used like to see him in his element of of being that for somebody. That's awesome. Okay. Two more questions. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. These are real broad. Mm-hmm. Okay. I just before you do that, I'm just gonna take a little detour and say, Lloyd, I asked to him to share some of this stuff. I know you don't want Maybe people to know kind of how cool you are, but so I'm gonna encourage Justin you to tell your dad before this launches that that there's some stories told about your dad. Yeah, no we need to know how cool you are. We do, but yeah. Okay, go ahead. Okay. how has your view of scripture changed? It's real broad. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to get you out of the book of Revelation, but you don't have to leave there. Yeah. the other is is how did this trip change you? I think I I've always we talked a lot and understanding context is key. I think this reinforced that even more. Like for us to go in and and it and approach scripture without understanding the context of what was going on what was happening, it's it's ignorant. Sorry. I mean it really is to not have an understanding of what was going on with the people that these letters were written to. Man, like it you're you're trying to presuppose some things that you don't know, but like when you have in depth an understanding of the context of of what was going on with this community of people, and so it reinforced kind of the the context of what was happening and how scripture w man was very much for that specific group, but then also it's still for us today, but like you gotta start there first. before you kind of start looking at here to today. Right. Yeah. I mean it's the the mantra that I say a lot is you have to know what it meant before you know what it means. Like you have to dive deep into the culture and the situation of that. So when I was in in that part of the world, like we went to Pompeii and that was like a really cool experience because most of you know but Pompeii was covered in the in the ash from Mount Vesuvius in the year 79. And so a lot of the things were just preserved. Right, as they were. And when I did it, it was kind of for a grad class. And so we had to read a book called Reading Romans in Pompeii. And it just like because Romans is kind of this grand treatise that, you know, theologians like to say it's got, you know, paths of salvation, all this other stuff. But when you're realizing that probably it was spoken to a group of thirty or less, because the largest building would have held that, you know, this it is not a mega church preacher in front of thousands proclaiming this r reading Paul's letter. Like this is a group that's going, they're probably reading and pausing and some ladies going, wait, I don't understand that. You know what I'm saying? And so if it were if it was a Jewish group they were arguing with with it. Yeah, I'm glad we took that tradition into the church arguing. But like that really makes it make in some ways it makes it harder to interpret scriptures because it's real easy to just Take out the relationship piece and just say, you know, all of sin and fall short of the glory. Wages of sin is dead. Like it's easy to take burses out and throw at people. But like when you're there, like it really influences how you view the scriptures. Yeah. And I think one specifically that is like whenever you you go to Ephesus and you see what all was going on in Ephesi like in Ephesus and like that that letter to the Ephesians and it makes a lot more sense. with all the things he's addressing, whenever you realize like what what what was Ephesus at during that time period, was huge. Well and it also makes sense of so much of the New Testament revolves around Ephesus, right? Like if we believe that John's community was there, then that's the gospel of John. And and first, second, and third John, and it's go you know, I mean, so Ephesus was a major player in the scriptures. Yeah, well, you see where Paul was there and he was teaching in the Halteranus and then out of there you see a lot of those churches planted. And it makes sense because they're all Pretty like when you get to these air like the churches in in Turkey and Asia Minor, they're all kind of I mean, we drove to all of them through there, right? And it you're just like, Man, it makes sense. And so that was really cool to think about in scripture. And it's just something being there in person, you're just like, this is this is real life stuff going on happen. that right there was huge. So I think for me, understanding the context of scripture, understanding what was going on, that's probably how it's maybe a or a reminder and reinforcement of that. and then w how's it changed me? I I'm still processing that a lot. Yeah, and it's that'd be ongoing. I know. That's why it's a thirty thousand foot question though. I it was the perfect timing of a I don't know what the word would be a like a shot in the arm of an encouragement of like, hey, you're on the right track. So I think I wasn't getting into burnout. I think I was just kind of getting some mission fatigue. Like, what the crap are we doing? Like what what's happen, like whatever. But then you you go and you see, man, and you read Revelation, you read what what what John was trying to say and what he was doing to these churches. and I was like, man, we still have there's still that needs to be done. Like we still need to be saying and doing these same things that and so like I'm gonna look at my phone because there's something specifically that I I wrote down that was I was trying to kind of in my mind figure out Okay, so this is just out of my thoughts from what just kinda sitting there. I said we are called and expected to be the redemptive, healing, transformative, liberating presence. within a fallen Babylon world, not just abstaining from empire, but intentionally and subversively living in another reality, the kingdom reality. That God is right here and right now. There is no separation except for the lies that we buy into about the separation. We can rest, abide in the reality of the being in the union with the Trinity right now, not one day. We so we focus so much on the one day we will be with God in heaven that we miss being with God right here and right now. We have put so much emphasis and impetus on our future with God that we miss the present with God. We are experiencing the presence and fullness of God now. We can just and w and we can just now that we can we'll continue that into the eternity for the future in whatever dimension of reality that exists in. and so there was just this thing, I think a lot of people look at the book of Revelation as this what what's gonna happen in the future. Right. And I think that misses I don't that's not John wasn't talking about that so much. He was talking about like while you're in tribulation. Cause whenever it was his tribulation, he's talking about the tribulation they're experiencing at time, at present almost, right? and I'm saying it's gonna happen, but like as you're you can still be in the fallen Babylon world around you, the in this world, the fallen the Roman Empire world around you, you you have the ability to be a whole nother type of pe Being, person, culture within the kingdom. And so I think that was just reinforced. And it it brought more so much so much more life whenever you're seeing the Emperor's cult temples. So you had these these temples that were that's where the cult of the emperor would go to worship. Right? And that's where a lot of these things in these letters he's calling those out. That there's like hey, I know that you're in the seat of of Satan, right? And he's talking about one of the head places of emperor worship going on. But then also he's talking about a Satan of synagogue, which he I would say it c probably implies there was some confluogy c whatever that word is, conflusion going on between the synagogue and the Roman Empire. Right? And so like there was some that going on. And so all of that to be like, man, there is there's a calling that we have right now in the presence to live another way. that that way of Jesus that is completely opposite than the culture that we've been told to accept and to be about. there's a whole nother way of living life that is anti empire. you wrote a whole freaking thesis. I did about but but man, there's just something in that where when we live the kingdom of God, it is so counter cultural to what the rest of the world is t being told mm how to live. You just gave an advertisement for the sermon on the good going into the Beatitudes because that's kind of how it starts. Justin and th this is my experience. I don't want to project my experience onto you, but and it's hard to explain. And you know I'm like I'm such a let's study the language and all but like it just felt true when you're on the ground in those places. Like it I can't explain that. But like when you are at Patmos or when you're at Ephesus, like it just you're like, this is something I've given my life to, and that's the right call. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. And it I can't explain it. Like I'm sure that somebody could come and go, well, I'm wrong about that. But there was just this feeling of a connection and truth when your boots on the ground in those places. Yeah. And with that too, I think for me too is realizing how much more like our view of understanding the church and it's not this building, this thing, whatever else, like like it almost reinforced it there because you go to most of these cities, there's no churches there now, right? And I think a mi I kinda knew that, but I think a lot of the trip were expecting us to go and find an actual like church building in Smyrna or a church, whatever. And there there was at probably at times and but like and there were places that they worship but like there there's isn't this the the the idea of the church being in that city, it wasn't this one building located in this one place and that's That's right in the center of town with a steeple that calls it out. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think large parking lawn. Exactly. Right. That that wasn't it. And and then also addressing like during this time, thinking about like they're addressing the city the church of the city of like it it wasn't all these little groups. It was like this is the church of this this city. And I wonder if that's still how Jesus sees the church. Does he see the church in Lubbock? Does he see the church enrolls? Does he see I don't know if he sees the all the individual Methodist Church or the Yeah, yeah. And so I just think for me i to me it was just a reinforcement and encouragement to what we're doing with Kingdom Co op of like, man, I feel like what we're about and what what we're how we're going about this is really good. Yeah, that you know, that's a that's a great observation because I mean I've just I've been doing some kind of stuff that, you know, conversations you and I and Craig are having and just realizing that connectedness is difficult. Like it's real easy to have a church that's a building that has programs that does this and this is what church is. But when you begin to kind of have relationships and it it it gets the water gets muddied. It gets complicated because messy. Messy because people, right? But yeah, I mean I I think even while you were gone, some of the ideas brainstorming that I'm doing is like, Yeah, this is hard and it's messy, but it's what is laid out in the scriptures. I mean, he's not I mean the fact that and you just talking about this, like this letter of revelation went to all the churches. So I guarantee you that Smyrna in like, we're gonna skip the Laodicea part. Like I guarantee you that probably they're reading the Laodicea one and Smyrna going, Yep, mm-hmm. Preach, John. You know, and but there was an interconnectedness there that I think a lot of times our current institutional model just misses because Aldersgate worries about Aldersgate and First Christian worries about first Christian and you know, all of that. And there's not a church as Jesus sees it in Lubbock. Yeah, I think so. And I think You like for I love Dr. Ro Robert Mohole and I was listening to his class on Revelation when I was going through this and he he defines the seven churches as the good, the bad, and the ugly. There's two good churches, two bad churches, and three ugly churches. And and as I'm going through there and I'm thinking about these churches and I'm like, man, the issues that are going on in these churches are still the same issues that we got today in the church. Like we it it hasn't been addressed or fixed or like these are the same issues that he's calling out. The idols may be different. The the gods that are being worshipped are be are a little different. The whatever else, but it is very much the quote. It is. It is very much. and then we're trying to do both. Having these idols over here, and I'm still trying to do this over here, right? That was one of the ugly churches that what he he was addressing. It was like, hey, you say you're all about Jesus in this life, but you're still kind of over here too, doing this thing. Yeah. And so I I that was kind of what stood out to me a lot too. It was like, man, we we still haven't like addressed the issues that John was that Jesus was calling out through John over two thousand years ago. But okay, so maybe another way to look at that is like the problems the church has aren't new. Like we're within depending on when you date the book of Revelation, we're within sixty years of the crucifixion of Jesus. And already they're having these issues. And so I mean I think sometimes and and this is probably an indictment on us, sometimes it's easy to look and go, I don't understand how that can be going on in the but like they it's been a long around a long time. Mm-hmm. These issues popped up in the first century and they still are things that the human condition creates problems with. It it's crazy to me. When it was one I can't remember which church it was specifically, I'll have to go back and look. But basically it was like the idea there's they're eating food that was sacrificed or something like that. And and the issue like there's two ways to get that type of food. Was out in the market where they d the the they'd done it and they brought it out in the market they're selling it. Or if you were part of a a guild, right? And if you were part of the let's just say the the stoneworking guild. Okay. And a part of that stoneworking guild is you would go and there and you would have meals and worship but a lot of that food had been sacrificed to gods for whatever that was. And they the people were still going and eating and being part of this fellowship within these guilds because that was their livelihood and that was their whole thing. Right? And so it was hard to almost give up that sense of your identity and that guild. So I would because you're s fearful of what's gonna happen if I step out of this thing right here, where I've given so much my worth, my identity, my value into if I fully embrace this new life in Jesus. Some of it was y like unions, if I don't participate, will I get jobs. Will I get jobs exactly. And so it was very much so it was this addressing this idea, I think we a lot of people have is trust of dependence. Are you gonna really trust that I'm with you? Are you gonna really trust that I'm I got you. and so that was just really, really just kind of really good, powerful to see reminds It's cool, e especially in light of the narrative you're telling. Like your dad had one of those moments, right? I can do the paint store or I can go uproot my family. I mean And at that time in the eighties, he was super successful. I mean he was over all of West Texas, New Mexico. Like he was like kind of top dog and in his industry. And then he just kind of gives it up. And I remember we go from this friggin' really cool, nice big house f on a few acres in Amarello to a friggin' two bedroom apartment. Upstairs in Wilmore, Kentucky. And that's when I was like, what the cr that's like my rebellion started and it's still going on this many years. No. But I mean, I think that those stories are important to tell too. Like I mean, obviously, especially when you can tie that in. Like Lloyd had to make a decision. Yeah. Like he could have continued on in the paint store. He could have helped out that church that y'all were at however they needed, done everything but the preaching apparently. Well he can preach you can preach now. But and it's just it's just interesting when you try when you layer those stories over the the stories in scripture and see that like just like the same kind of problems that were in the book of Revelation are still here, those same stories still are happening. Yeah. They are. And that's what's really cool too, is you think about how a lot of times out of that church in Ephesus, a lot of these other churches were planted either Paul somebody had Paul Disciple had poured into and they did this, or even Paul went over and started it and came back. I mean, and so you think about this idea of like, man, there's so many powerful stories. And and then if you went throughout the centuries of what took pl like the ripple effects of how people have experienced the kingdom through these things. And and I would say not in massive huge scale, but I would say in these small groups of people. Over and over and over and over and again throughout the years, that's where people have experienced the kingdom. So I think if you know, the next one we get back to Sermon on the Mount, I think maybe by the time we're whatever, we'll get to Revelation. Like if we just take it slow, I think. You you want to hang around that long, Scott, with us? I'm not sure I'll live that long. Man, Justin, thanks for sharing some of that stuff. I think it's it's just valuable I wanted to get it while it was a little raw, right? I mean my thought is we could probably do this in six months and you'd have some totally different lessons from all of that. But I mean I think it's important for us even to hear stories like this. And so thanks for thanks for going with your dad. Thanks for sharing that. And thanks for letting us do a little kind of tangent and we'll we'll get back to the Sermon on the Mount. next time. Hope you all enjoyed this. I mean I always like sharing my friend Justin and his story. So hopefully you enjoyed this and and we'll get back on track next time. Thanks so much.