Latest / TWRS-Leadership Straight, No Chaser / The Hidden Cost of Bad Leadership
Transcript
- Scott Brandt: There's always something in life that trips us up and really turns on the light and says we've got to change it because of that tripping point. So welcome back to Together We Are Stronger, Leadership Straight, No Chaser. And tonight we have Ryan Drumheller on with us. And Ryan, when I was looking at the one sheet, George was looking at the one sheet, you highlighted that about last year you had lost your position. And then you also highlight the aspect of kind of leadership mistakes. So for yourself, what was that tripping point really? What caused the position to be lost and then you were focusing, you're like, Okay, I really have to focus on the leadership identity. But what was a leadership mistake that kind of came into this whole point of what you saw and you're like, I've got to adjust this and share something different to help others out. Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, so I think it was me being too busy to acknowledge what was happening in the world, which was one economy. And then two, maybe my denial of how much I thought AI might you know take a hold. so those two things in in combination. ⁓ you know, my first year ⁓ at the I worked at the ⁓ a UK software company, the biggest in the UK, and I oversaw North America and we did a lot of mergers and acquisitions the first year. George Dovolis: you Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: The second year I found myself kind of asking, like, hey, you know, anything on the agenda? And it was like, well, we're gonna pay attention kind of the election, the back half of the year, see how it goes. And long story short, that we didn't do any mergers and acquisitions my second year. And it was no surprise really to me. I found myself most weeks like, This is all you want me to do, like this is an hour for a whole week. Like, who what are we doing here? So George Dovolis: you Ryan Drumheller: I kind of was gonna look for something else. and you know, six months down the line. But we ⁓ we found out, ⁓ you know, I was gonna let go on a on a Tuesday, I think it was. I was on a plane and by Thursday I was in San Antonio, Texas, starting a consulting company with ⁓ a few other individuals and trying to stay afloat. fast forward, I'm no longer doing that. George Dovolis: you Ryan Drumheller: ⁓ kind of figured out the best things and the worst things about that experience. And ⁓ throughout that I was taking interviews and I found myself sitting in rooms of leaders or individuals as I call with titles in a lot of these situations. ⁓ ⁓ have a pretty extensive resume, a lot of education, a lot of certifications. And what I found out was a lot of individuals looked at me as George Dovolis: Hmm Ryan Drumheller: kind of the person that was going to force them to have to do things. So I didn't belong. They didn't they didn't want me. ⁓ which was baffling to me because here I was sitting here going, I thought I did everything right. I'm getting education. I'm constantly trying to get upskill you know, in technology. And here I am being shunned for having all of those things and continuing to want those things. And ⁓ kind of an extroverted individual ⁓ been picked up already. So I get labeled as as an IT unicorn. Scott Brandt: Mm. George Dovolis: Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: And ⁓ all of those things I think combined together of made me go, Wow, I am not I'm not gonna make it this way anymore. I have to change my game plan. That dream is dead. That's not going anywhere anymore. So I have to go and figure out what is gonna change that. I hired an executive coach that I had ⁓ met through networking on LinkedIn and it was going really well and she turned me on to diffractional and was like, let's let's change the narrative. Let's give everyone a value now. Now everyone's getting you for next to nothing with all of that experience and education. And they don't have to commit to you long term or anything like that. So we started to go about it that way. Scott Brandt: Hm. Yeah, it it's an interesting aspect because like the whole resume stuff and people that are leaders running businesses still looking at kind of an outdated practice because you can have people fluff up their resumes, you can have individuals like really say, Okay, I'm gonna fine tune especially with AI. Like the the thing with that is people are hesitant on that. So that's another thing that with leaders really being George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: fearful of ex embracing the change or welcoming new things. But it's such a crazy thing that like a lot of people that are leaders don't adjust, aren't a student, aren't looking for ways to adjust and move forward, and they wonder why they're stuck. And so one that people call themselves a leader, but they really don't do what they should by growing, by adjusting. George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: And staying stuck. And then they wonder why nobody wants to be around them. Nobody like listens to them. It's just that they are set in their ways. And so from that experience, like kind of, hey, we see what you're doing, but we don't need you because of what we see on the resume. What was that perspective on kind of that leadership piece? Because the fractional world is a very unique place on that, with what you can bring, but When you were hearing people tell you that and you're like, I don't know, what else am I supposed to do? Because I've I've bringing you stuff here, but you as a leader don't see it because you're blinded to whatever. So when you had that going on, what was it with the projection that you saw with leadership and you're like, this has got to adjust, I've got to do something, and I've got to showcase to other people to help them make that adjustment? Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, sitting in those rooms and and walking away and I I hate to be right. And a lot of people would be like, No, no, you don't. No, no, I do, because it normally means bad. And every single time I walked away, I'm like, it's not gonna happen. And it didn't, because perspective is nobody's holding these these leaders accountable. Nobody's forcing them to to have to do better, have to lead better, have to invest in their people. ⁓ you know. George Dovolis: Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: I mean, how be it? Like we wanna actually care about individuals and the people that we're leading and we wanna know like where their aspirations are and where they wanna go. I've absolutely done those things before. I've got a lot of reviews on, you know, LinkedIn of teams that I've absolutely led that if I landed somewhere tomorrow, they don't care what the name of the company is, just the fact that I'm there and they wanna come come back and work for somebody like that, that should be what you'd wanna strive for at the end of the day. I I don't care what my tombstone says. George Dovolis: Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: I care at the end of the day that I'm rich in those individuals that I helped and get to places. And and I would constantly say, take my position one day if that's what your aspiration is. Because if I'm worth my salt, the company will find me a new role. Or in my career, maybe it's time to move on. And that's also okay. Because now I have friends across the industry at a bunch of different places. And I don't know about you, but people tend to move around and we find ways of working with one another again. So ⁓ My biggest thing is I don't think these companies are holding them accountable. I built a bad leadership calculator to kind of show ⁓ companies ⁓ way to measure ⁓ bad leadership in dollars and cents. ⁓ that was a recent thing I just did last week that I'm finding ways to channel that ⁓ you know, anger and wanting to do different in in the industry into measurable results to show companies, hey. George Dovolis: Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: make the adjustment because this is what Bob or Sally or Bill or whatever is doing to your company. And if you were a business person, you wouldn't make a bad deal if you had these numbers in front of you. So what are you doing? Scott Brandt: Yeah. So it it's interesting because you talked about accountability. So really a lot of people overlook the the aspect of accountability. And if you're a leader running a business and you're stuck and you need that accountability, our one of our partners is Dr. Joey. If you are stuck at half a million in revenue to three million in revenue and you don't know what to do, you need to talk to Dr. Joey. He's really passionate to help you level up, overcome whatever's blocking, sticking you or your teams. George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: To move forward because the more revenue that you have as a business, the more you can impact people, the more you can do. So if you're struggling and you just don't know what to do, reach out to Dr. Joey in the show notes. We'll have the link that you can reach out, talk to him, have that conversation and see if it's a good fit. But the the interesting thing is the accountability piece, when we have accountability to others, you you had highlighted how a lot of people don't invest in their people. But when we look ⁓ George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: leaders in those positions, how often are leaders investing in themselves? Because if you don't give yourself what you're trying to give others, it's a very hard thing. And so like that investment piece into other people doesn't take place because I think a lot of times leaders aren't even doing that for themselves. And so is that something that you've noticed where leaders are gonna say, hey, you need to do this or whatever it is. But at the end of the day you look at them and they're not even doing what they're telling other people to do. Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, it's like the situation of like, hey, you're doing it wrong, do it better. And you're just barking commands at ⁓ but you're not actually showing them how to actually do it or or what you want to be done. So are they ever gonna get there and you know, are they ever gonna get measured results at that point? Like, well, no. so it is a little bit of, you know, you have to lead by example. ⁓ one of my most favorite achievements or accomplishments is a small team that I led, we all invested together. George Dovolis: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Ryan Drumheller: To do a series of certifications ⁓ in a particular year. And collectively, I think we came out of that with like 150 certifications across the board. And I was right in the chair, right beside them, driving them, taking turns, going to testing centers, and just leading and being with the team at the same time. And it was such an unreal experience. It was such a team-bonding experience where they didn't question anything. They wanted to do it. I'm there. George Dovolis: Ahem. Ryan Drumheller: doing it right beside them. And we came out of that such ⁓ a successful unit across the board with our projects that year. It wasn't just about the upskilling of the certifications and yeah, that's great. The company got all that experience and didn't have to give everybody huge raises, but we also got all the work done along the way. We did it ⁓ you know, in the time frames we said we were going to do it in. We did it faster in a lot of cases, better because we had more skills along the way. So yeah, you kind of need to invest, you know, find ways to be with the team. Remember, you are a team at the end of the day. And it's not just about, like in my case, IT. I also encourage individuals to go out and branch out and you know, figure out what marketing is doing, figure out what sales is doing, figuring out what whatever industry that you're in, because the smarter and better you can be, we're a team, we're not a silo. So now I'm ⁓ that example to my team, encouraging them George Dovolis: Hmm Ryan Drumheller: to also get out there and learn some business at the same time. So yeah, it is definitely you have to kind of do some things and show your team and then it becomes a lot easier for conversation. George Dovolis: Mmm, yeah. You know, Ryan, we, you know, we sit in here and listen to you. mean, you've got some things going on here. But the one thing that we talked about leadership, you got these leadership step in CEOs and everything. But what happens is is they just what do they really cost the company when they don't follow through? It's just not the money, but really what does it really cost them? Because, you know, it can be affected by trust, morale, speed, decision making. You know, it's something that leaders don't realize. You take this new role and your background is John Deere. You know, you have no idea when it comes down to IT or AI and it becomes a mess. Ryan Drumheller: No, you're absolutely right. ⁓ I I had to actually go back through and reveal the the results of my calculator because the number was really high. And I was like, let me check these calculations a few times. but you're right, it's a domino effect. You you don't really realize that an untrained leader, what we'll call it, or or maybe somebody that's not aware that they need to invest and do some of these things. It affects this person and and maybe that team member is now gonna leave and take a different position. George Dovolis: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Ryan Drumheller: Now it's caused this project to get behind. And you know, it's it's a domino and it adds up over time. And once you look at it from that perspective, it's like this might be a million dollar mistake at that point. that could be on the person, it could be on the company. I mean, you have to look at that specific situation, but yeah, ⁓ real leadership ⁓ right ⁓ a value add, not a value sync. ⁓ Scott Brandt: Yeah. Yeah. So right now if you're getting nuggets from this video, hit the like button. If you're looking for these types of videos, hit the subscribe button. really you just gotta look and ask yourself, like, where is it when it comes to how you're leading? How are you growing? And that's one thing that George and I talk about is the power of the student. And so are you in student mode? Are you growing? Are you taking action though? Because that's the thing, is some people are I'm being a student, and then they're taking no action. George Dovolis: Mmm. Yeah. Scott Brandt: So it's like, okay, how can I learn? How can I evolve? What can I do to better myself to help others around? so it's one that it's very interesting thing because you have people that will get put in leadership positions, but not everybody's meant to be a leader. ⁓ It one of those things and it's not let me punch you the face. Like it's true, like not some people aren't meant to be leaders, some people aren't meant to be a business owner. George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: It's the matter of finding what you're best at and filling that role as best as you can. And the thing is, I don't know if you've ever heard of the working zone genius assessment. But the gentleman that had created it, there's six different archetypes. ⁓ of them is the galvanizer, where you're bringing people together. For me, I'm like, that is not me. I really dislike having to ⁓ kind of light fires under people, ⁓ because that's where I'm like, man, if you can't do yourself, like, why would I drive you? Because if you can't do yourself, then me trying to come in is not gonna do anything for you. So you had had you talked about like the untrained leadership piece. Like there there's some people that get put in positions that just shouldn't be in that position. And when we are looking at that, what would be something that you would say George Dovolis: Hmm. Scott Brandt: to really put people in the proper position, what is that that leaders are overlooking and really need to tap into to make sure that people are filling the proper hole and not being put in there just because they're putting in there, but because they are the ideal fit for that hole or that gap that's being filled. Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, it's really kind of the inverse of of what you see on the barometer. You normally either see positions just left unfilled for six months, eight months, starting to question whether this role needs to be filled. or you see what you're describing, which is, ⁓ we gotta fill this immediately. ⁓ know what? Phil's an amazing engineer, ⁓ he's the most senior guy on the team. Let's go ahead and promote him up ⁓ you know, what what you're talking about, Phil might have been an amazing engineer and that's what Phil likes to do and that's what Phil's great at. But maybe he's not gonna have that side of the leadership fence. And that's okay. ⁓ but maybe we need to have like a a test. Maybe we need to have a well, let's get Phil ⁓ you know, a mentor or somebody that can come in and help consult him because I don't know how many leadership roles, you know, some of the the audience might have been in or some of the roles that you guys might have been in. Nobody handed me a manager book and said, Good job, read this, you'll be A-OK. it almost never happens. ⁓ and you kind of left to figure it out. ⁓ I like to joke that I had a lot of scars from from all these things. ⁓ you know, I didn't get born with it. But you kind of have those genes or you have the wants and desires. And if you're really introverted and you you're not, like you said, you don't want to bring people together, you kind of want to work alone and George Dovolis: No Ryan Drumheller: You a really good job, you know, working those skills out. You have to have an honest conversation. And I've seen that go so many different ways a at a job where it's like, Well, no, you can't go backwards. You took the role, you you can't come back down. And it's like, let him come back down. Let's let's put a leader in there. Let's let, you know, Phil do what he's amazing at at that point. And like let's thank him for what he did for us in that transition period and let's move forward. mean, there's a lot of ways that question could go, but George Dovolis: Mmm. Thank Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: I think having to be honest with where you're at with that, who is involved with that, ⁓ and at the same time, if you know it's a risk, don't leave ⁓ hanging. I mean, chances are it's not gonna go well. Give give you know, that individual some rope, help ⁓ out there. Scott Brandt: Yeah. George Dovolis: Now, let me ask you, let me just see this. you see the difference in having a more technology or having better operation? ⁓ that I think companies, why does companies get confused about the two? Ryan Drumheller: ⁓ if you're giving me a choice, this is gonna be controversial coming from an IT background. I'm taking a better operation every day. I ⁓ don't care what the tool is, it might be the bet. I mean, give it give me all the AI tools, it might be the best tools in the world, but if I don't have the process ⁓ you know the procedures, the governance, all of those things identified leading into it, it doesn't matter. it's gonna fail. So if you give me the best operational standpoint leading into that. George Dovolis: Yeah! Yeah! Ryan Drumheller: I've got a great team willing to work with me. We've got the right processes and procedures. We've identified proficiencies. You know, we're we're streamlining this here to make sure that we know what we're trying to measure coming out of this. That's gonna be a better, you know, recipe in the end of the day. Scott Brandt: Yeah. The the interesting thing with ⁓ the world of AI, like we have so ⁓ I was in ⁓ a workshop this morning Daniel Priestley was leading it and he had shown like the screenshot about kind of the users that have never touched AI before. Very right now. And then you have the ones that are kind of dabbling and then you have like three or four blocks on there that are like ⁓ super into it, like putting the tool into use. George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: But he had highlighted one of the issues when it comes to AI businesses, leaders, is that not fully understanding what's being implemented and then not properly training people the tool to make sure that they fully understand. Because where we're at right now, like it's prevalent. It's not going away. It ⁓ we had ⁓ I had a previous podcast ⁓ the gentleman came on and he's like George Dovolis: you Scott Brandt: AI's been around since nineteen seventy. And so it's a very interesting thing when you hear how long it's been around, but because now with the different platforms that we have, the opportunity for everybody to experience it, it's a very interesting thing about how people are so freaked out about it ⁓ they don't want to get curious. And I understand that it's the fear factor, but it doesn't help that news outlets and everybody's like, ⁓ it's gonna ⁓ everybody. So okay. So we're playing off the fears of the people that are being disrupted. And then you have the people that are really tapping in it to be disruptors. But the issue we're seeing is a lot of leaders aren't curious. And so this is a little bit of being a student going and learning or finding somebody that can come teach you really that knows the ins and outs because we've seen people that get in and they're like, ⁓ I know what to do with it and they've only played with AI for like two weeks and they're like, I know what I'm doing and you're like ⁓ George Dovolis: Now. Scott Brandt: No, like we need to quit that. But the the interesting thing is it goes back to investing into people. but when it comes to AI, because it's it's new, really the the explosion of it is new. But when it comes to leaders, business owners really bringing in the new technology, ⁓ are they ⁓ out on the huge piece to bring peace to people, not freak people out, but really implement a huge tool that's gonna George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: benefit the business, the people, who they're serving, but what is it that they're truly missing out when it comes to implementing it properly into their everyday operations? Ryan Drumheller: You you you hit on a lot of things. Yeah. You can't walk around without AI smacking you in the face for sure. So they've definitely done a great job marketing. That's the best thing that AI has done at the moment because a lot of it's not true. so yeah, ⁓ just just a fun fact. Yeah, over eighty percent of projects are failures right now. it's it's actually ⁓ costing billions of dollars. It's not actually making billions of dollars yet. Scott Brandt: Yeah. George Dovolis: Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: And it's really kind of on the human side of it. It's not really the actual AI tooling. The tooling is the tooling. And yeah, it's getting better all the time and you know, getting smarter. But yeah, to answer your question, the first thing I do when I'm speaking to businesses is I I don't care about the tooling. I want to know, you know, what things have you identified in your specific business that would be quick wins. What things do you want to have happen come out of this? Scott Brandt: Mm-hmm. Ryan Drumheller: do you have any sense of what a governance committee looks like? Any any sense of how we're gonna secure this, who's gonna own it? And then yeah, the key part is do you have a training plan for your employees? And I'm not talking PowerPoint presentations. I'm talking about true, do your employees understand what AI adoption is? Do they know where they can full find the information? Do they have somebody assigned that they can go have a conversation with? George Dovolis: Hmm. Hmm Ryan Drumheller: And with that governance committee, those those workers can actually have a place where they can bring you the actual, you know, boots on the ground, what's happening in your business opportunities or things that's costing them time. So now you not only hear about what's happening in your own business, but you can govern that. You create a safe space, it becomes a two-way convo. And they start having belief and they start changing the mindset of AI is going to replace me versus okay, well, AI just saved me three hours of a day doing this. So now I can put three hours into humanality, maybe. Maybe I'm a customer service individual and I can turn some of those situations into wins for us where we might have lost sales. So I start there before we ever get to tools. And when we get to tools, it's I don't care what tools you've looked at. Do you know what tools are gonna work for you? And the answer is no, okay, let's identify what's gonna work for your business. I don't care what your competitor has. Scott Brandt: Really. Ryan Drumheller: I don't know how your competitor implemented this. It might be bad data in, bad data out. Let's make sure that we're getting you good data in and making sure that that data is gonna be water, as I like to say it, and not mud. it's all ⁓ of things and businesses normally are exhausted at the the end of the time I'm speaking to ⁓ because they don't know that it's gonna take all of this. That's really what Scott Brandt: Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: you know, getting ready for AI adoption looks like. You have to do all of this to get to a successful place to actually implement AI and you will absolutely see returns on your investment, but you're gonna have to change some things with your business. Scott Brandt: Yeah. Well, it goes back because really the foundational episode for the podcast when we originally launched it was the aspect of clarity. we've highlighted that clarity is your filtering system. And so when we look at a lot of individuals, they don't have clarity. And because with no clarity, they don't have ways to filter and say, Okay, is this gonna help me push us forward ⁓ is this gonna detract us? And so it's one of those that a lot of leaders are missing out on having the clarity. But then it's also the mental model too. Is like you really have to adjust your your mentality with what's going on. that's tough for some people because that means now I'm having to question beliefs that have served me before, but they might not be serving me now. And it is a very interesting thing about with the adoption of AI. ⁓ It goes into like what George and I've highlighted. It's you've got to start with clarity. You gotta say, okay, what is it that we wanna accomplish? Because not every tool is gonna work. Not every tool is meant for you. And then it's the aspect of you've gotta change your thought process. You've got to change your mentality. But it goes to a lot of people don't want to do because they're fearful of if I do that, what am I having to give up? What am I having to release that's helped me? George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: But now is not gonna help me and who am I gonna make mad? where am I getting kicked out of the tribe and we're not cavemen anymore, so if you get kicked out you're not gonna get squashed by a woolly mammoth. You just are gonna lose potential friends, potentially. But maybe they aren't needed anymore. ⁓ so it is a interesting thing about the mentality piece and really having clarity for what you're trying to accomplish. George Dovolis: No. Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, I I think that's what businesses misunderstand is you know, speaking with AI, right? We've seen all of those conversations, those articles. We've seen those companies try to replace entire teams and it turned into a disaster. And of course it's gonna turn into a disaster. One of the first questions I I also ask businesses is do you ⁓ wanna pick up the phone? You have a problem, do you wanna hope to reach an AI bot or do you wanna hope to reach a human? We're at that point where we're still wanting to reach humans. So you have to remember that there is still a lot of humanality involved with this. And setting up these these you know, situations with governance, with training. There are also opportunities for conversations to your point. So that along the way, these employees are never left on islands alone where they have to go through and think ⁓ read those articles where they're being jammed down their throats about Your KPI is tied to using AI and it's still not working because they're not doing it. Where you can flip the script and have a two-way, you know, conversation all the way to them doing their day job every single day and go, okay, we can address their their fears, we can address their concerns, we can help educate them, we can show them ⁓ ways that they can be more proficient and we can reward them, right? Like if they're getting better ROI out of what they're doing now. Those are opportunities to reward the humans and flip that narrative of you're gonna lose your job to if you help us make money essentially at this business, we're absolutely gonna reward you. That's what businesses should be looking for opportunities to do with AI. Scott Brandt: Yeah. So another partner we want to highlight is ADP. And so as business owners, you didn't get in to do the back end stuff, payroll, compliance, HR. And so if you're trying to implement that and you don't know what to do and it's just not in your wheelhouse, you need to reach out to ADP. They're really focused on the small business owners, allowing you to focus on your zone of genius and they take care of that back end, really working with you in that relationship. And so if that's something that you need to do. Reach out to ADP, we'll have a link in the show notes. They'll sit down, have a conversation with you, kind of see what you need to implement in your business to help you move forward so you can be in your zone of genius. it's and talked about the student mode. And so looking at kind of what you've accomplished, one master's, you're working on a doctorate's, you have the two bachelors, or no, two masters, one bachelor's, hundred and seventy certificates, and you had talked about working with other employees, helping them get their certificates. George Dovolis: Bye. Hmm. Scott Brandt: The the power of being a student, learning, gaining knowledge, cutting your shortcut, but also taking action. And so we've talked about that where a lot of business owners, leaders kind of miss out on that opportunity to be a student and what that does for you. And so if somebody is struggling and is like, okay, what do I need to do? What would be that one thing you would suggest kind of starting into being a student and saying, okay This is what you want to look at doing, but you gotta figure out what's best for you because you are an individual and what worked for me may not work for you, but this is kind of a piece that I would provide you to help you start getting into that realm so you can better yourself ⁓ really impact those that are around you. So what would that be that you would kind of highlight as that guiding point for him, Ryan? Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, that's kind of well part of the reason why I might have so many as well. I I didn't exactly have ⁓ a lot of mentors going through the early parts of my career. So I I absolutely do a lot of that now. there's a lot of posts, especially the last year when I was going for a lot of the big cybersecurity, you know, certifications. Those are some of my most you know, commented, liked post ⁓ you know, the entire year. And I love doing it because the curious individuals that want to invest in themselves. George Dovolis: Mmm. ⁓ Ryan Drumheller: are the future. Those are the individuals who are going to go far. So the first thing I ask them is typically, what is it that you want to do if you know? ⁓ you know, and and if you know, awesome. Let's create a path that's going to work for you. Let's create a safe behaven path where you're not giving up so much time like I gave up. Let's give up appropriate amount of times where you feel you're making progress every single week, but you're still with your families, you're still with your hobbies. Those are all important things that that I learned a tough part of. So working along that path, getting some wins, you know, posting your wins, messaging others in the industry, not just me, right? So if you want a true cybersecurity expert, let's help you find a few of them, see what the commonalities that they're all giving you and what lands for you. And with that, you can make a plan that works specific to you, like you pointed out. It is up to the individual at the end of the day. But when you kind of frame it as an outsider and you give them that kind of feedback. George Dovolis: Hmm Ryan Drumheller: They feel a bit better to go, ⁓ okay, I just have to make and identify, you know, some of these pieces that are important to me. you know, now it's just about like where do I find, you know, the materials or what's the best route to study. And I I love doing that because the first place I go to is Reddit. ⁓ what what is everybody doing right now that's working or not working? And, you know, take those takeaways and find one of those that that ⁓ identified, you know, to you that is going to work for you. George Dovolis: Good. Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: Because some people like to read, some people like to watch, some people like to listen. You know, we all have different ways. So I normally start that kind of conversation and it it kinda is daunting for somebody that's new. But as somebody who has done so many times, I found a rhythm, I found a way that worked for me. I kind of apply it almost the same every single time. The material changes out and you know, maybe some of the testing things, you know, change out, but George Dovolis: Hmm. Ryan Drumheller: The way I go about it is pretty routine at that point and you get in a rhythm, you get confidence and I mean, eventually you get there if you really keep applying yourself. Scott Brandt: Hmm. George Dovolis: That's amazing. Well, one thing I have to say you you're you did an amazing job bridging both technology and the business side. Why is you know, why is bridging so rare? And why is the technical side so valuable right now? Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, that is something that I see ⁓ IT individuals get siloed in. ⁓ it's one of the first things that that I tell the younger generation immediately is don't get sidetracked. IT is absolutely valuable. Try to learn a couple of different paths, especially in today's IT landscape. You know, try to be able to do a few different things, but don't only focus on that because the more business that you can learn, the more valuable you are. George Dovolis: Hmm Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: To making somebody's day you know be better, right? Like somebody in marketing might not know that what they're doing. They just might know this is what I do and this what I've done for five years. And you might walk up one day and you're like, hey, I can make that easier for you. And then you have a conversation about why they're doing it, what they need out of it, and all of a sudden you become their savior at that point. And it and it flips the script. You you turn IT into this place where everybody goes to when something breaks, right? Like typically George Dovolis: Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: you're dealing with individuals who are a bit upset or you know they're stressed out because they can't do their job and and you know they're kind of taking that out. But now you're flipping the script and you're changing it and you're making their jobs better every day. And you're learning some of that business language. You're learning why sales has to do this. And now you're starting to think more creatively, you know, at that point from an IT aspect to then go, okay, well now it's no longer well, why are they forcing us to do this? Now it's like, ⁓ I understand. George Dovolis: Hmm. Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: Here's three different ways we could go about that, which one is best for you guys. You're a true partner at that point. especially somebody that wants to get into leadership, they're gonna want that person eventually when that role opens up because that person made everybody's lives better and it was a good experience. So I try to teach everybody that comes through those those lessons. George Dovolis: I can truly tell you love to talk about real conversation, no fluff, practical insights. What do you think people are so hungry for direction, honest leadership right now? And I think that's a lost cause leaders to just give it up. Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, I had to I had to have a few nights to myself at some point and like, am I crazy? Am I the one that's the you know, the oddball? and thankfully I met a lot of other ins individuals out there and you know, a lot of senior ⁓ people have been doing this a bit longer than me to be like, No, it's you know, it exists out there. There is some good, but there's definitely been a trend where we're not trying to invest in our in our leaders, we're not trying to upskill them, we're not trying to make them George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ryan Drumheller: you know, better at at any of those leadership qualities. And lucky for me, I've I've done dang near every leadership, ⁓ you know, study, course, went through Harvard programs, just anything I could get my hands on because I wanted to to try to be better myself. But that was some of me investing in me, ⁓ more than the companies, you know, investing in me. so I think some of that has to come from within. George Dovolis: Hmm. Yeah. Ryan Drumheller: ⁓ but some of that the company has to somehow be shown what the damage is causing. I go back to like I've been s I've been searching for this answer for a while and the only thing I keep landing on is just monetary. And and I think if they get hit with the well, you wouldn't make this kind of business decision if it was a negative, you know, ROI out of the gate, would you? And if that you know, of course. Why why would you? Well then why are we settling here? George Dovolis: Mmm. now. Ryan Drumheller: We need to get creative. That might not mean replacing the person, but it might mean we need, you know, an LED an L and D team that's normally one of the first to go in a company when we're making cuts. Or we need to, you know, send, you know, Paul off to a leadership training or get him involved with a mentor or whatever it is. We gotta up our game and let that trickle down to these other individuals here and give them a pathway, right? George Dovolis: Mmm, yes. Ryan Drumheller: Create other leaders in your own organization. I don't know how many times I see a leader leave and it's like, well, we don't anybody identified. They can, you know, take this spot. I'm like, why why? Like what what what you guys been doing the last few years, right? Like identify somebody, get them ready. And, you know, then you won't have to be in a spot where it's six, eight months before somebody comes in and you just tank your whole year. George Dovolis: Well. No. out. You created a podcast called decline invite. You got to tell us what's that all about. Ryan Drumheller: If you've ever worked in corporate, you probably already know. ⁓ so yeah, I mean you get those invites and you're like, what in the world is this? And okay, it's another meeting. I'm sitting here. So it's it it was a play on words. I was I was looking to be cheeky and funny. and ⁓ many people seem to like it. ⁓ George Dovolis: Hahaha! Yeah. That's strong, yeah, it's very strong. And other thing I always ask is a legacy. When everything's said and done and your time has come, what do you really want to remember? The impact that you created, all the things that you have done for different businesses, what do you want to really be remembered of when look at you? Ryan Drumheller: A year ago, if you'd asked me that, it'd be a different answer, honestly. But to today I sit here and it's no longer about ⁓ a title, it's no longer about the monetary, it's no longer about any of that. I want to make a difference ⁓ in the leadership circle. I want tomorrow's leaders to be better than today's leaders. I I to put my head on the pillow at night ⁓ and and able to fall asleep and go. George Dovolis: Mmm. Ryan Drumheller: All of these people I'm rich in people. I'm I'm rich in individuals that, you know, reach out to me constantly and they're like, You gave me an opportunity when nobody would, or you took the time to do this for me. ⁓ that's that's what I want at the end of the day, whether it's business individuals that didn't even work for me. I I help individuals all the time that I've never really met in person yet. If you're gonna invest in yourself. George Dovolis: Mmm, yes. Impactful. Ryan Drumheller: Those are the people that I'm all about. Like let let's see what we can do for you, let's see where we can take you and let's let tomorrow be better than today. George Dovolis: That's it, that's very impactful. Very rarely hear people say about that. Scott Brandt: So with the really the passion that you have for improving leaders, helping them better themselves, be better than what we have today. If people are looking to connect with you, learn more about what you offer, kind of whatever that is for you, where would that be for people to ⁓ reach out, connect with you, Ryan? Ryan Drumheller: Yeah, I'm very active on LinkedIn. I I post ⁓ a lot these days. very easy to reach out to me ⁓ by all means I will respond to you if you're looking for advice or you need help. ⁓ so just be patient. I'll I will definitely get to you. ⁓ businesses, you know, looking for any kind of help and they've liked the style or they like what they've heard out of me today, ⁓ they can go to Stellerhorn.com. that is the name of the company. I list my services on there. ⁓ I I'm just a common individual trying to change the world, and I will absolutely do it from a integrity standpoint for your business. additionally, the Decline Invite podcast, ⁓ if you like these kinds of conversations, especially with other individuals with real world, real time today problems that we're talking through and our opinions on how to go fix them. We we would love to have you over there. ⁓ and lastly, but ⁓ certainly am putting it out into the world so I hold myself accountable. as a leader to finish my leadership book that I am writing ⁓ by the end of this year. ⁓ so come find me at the end of the year and make sure you hold me accountable and say where's the book 'cause you'd like to see it. George Dovolis: Mmm. Scott Brandt: Awesome. But yeah, like we said, if you're looking for these types of videos, hit the subscribe button. ⁓ as you're really sending, if something's coming up and punch you the face, you've to figure out, okay, what is it that's gonna help you improve to become a better leader? And so you've got to look and say, like we've talked about, what's the fair ⁓ clarity, what's your filtering system? Are you being a student and taking action? And if you're not, that's where you're kind of stuck. So you gotta figure out what it is that you need to tap into. So you can move forward and become a better individual, ⁓ better version of yourself than what you are today. Other than that, we guys appreciate you guys coming on the journey with us, allowing us to be part of your journey, and we'll catch you on the next episode. George Dovolis: Yes. Yes. Thank you.