Latest / Inside Politics / Barnaby Joyce opens up on his defection to Pauline Hanson's One Nation

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Barnaby Joyce opens up on his defection to Pauline Hanson's One Nation · Inside Politics

• 0:01
  S1: One Nation is having a bit of a moment. Pauline
• 0:05
  S1: Hanson's outfit, accused by both major parties of exploiting racial
• 0:08
  S1: anxiety over the years, has faded into irrelevance at points
• 0:11
  S1: since she burst onto the scene in the late 90s.
• 0:14
  S1: But two new polls have recorded record high primary votes
• 0:16
  S1: for One Nation. One of them saw One Nation's vote
• 0:19
  S1: rise above the coalition, which split in spectacular fashion this
• 0:23
  S1: week over new hate crime legislation in the wake of
• 0:26
  S1: the Bondi massacre. The break up of the coalition and
• 0:29
  S1: the rise of One Nation may point to a tectonic
• 0:32
  S1: change in conservative politics. At the same time, the attack
• 0:36
  S1: at Bondi further sapped trust in our political system as
• 0:39
  S1: politicians have brawled in the wake of the tragedy. Amid
• 0:42
  S1: the confusion over what led up to the attack and
• 0:44
  S1: what the country needs to do next, One Nation's message
• 0:47
  S1: has been simple Islam's extreme fringe needs more attention and
• 0:52
  S1: guns are not a problem. I'm Paul Circle and you're
• 0:55
  S1: listening to Inside Politics from the Age and the Sydney
• 0:57
  S1: Morning Herald from Parliament House this week we recorded an
• 1:01
  S1: interview before the coalition split with One Nation's newest recruit.
• 1:05
  S1: Nationals defector and former Deputy Prime minister Barnaby Joyce. Welcome, Barnaby.
• 1:14
  S2: Latest recruit.
• 1:17
  S1: Do you like that term?
• 1:18
  S2: Newest recruit? My mother would always pick him up. She
• 1:20
  S2: was a peasant and all that sort of stuff.
• 1:22
  S1: Well, there's apparently some recruits on the way.
• 1:24
  S2: Ah, well, I don't know. We'll we'll find. I honestly,
• 1:27
  S2: I never. People say other discussions. Of course there's discussions.
• 1:31
  S2: But it's like everything else I always say to people,
• 1:34
  S2: it's it's something I deliberated on over about a year. Mhm.
• 1:39
  S2: Um it's a, it's a choice. That's yours. I'll be
• 1:42
  S2: really honest Pauline never put any pressure on me to
• 1:44
  S2: do it. She said you go exactly at your pace
• 1:47
  S2: what you do, whether you don't, that's up to you. Um, but, uh, well,
• 1:50
  S2: for me, it's self-evident that, um, I was wasting my
• 1:54
  S2: time sitting in the back corner. Um, basically being asked
• 1:58
  S2: to leave Parliament and and that's what I would have
• 2:01
  S2: had to do, was I had to hang around. But
• 2:04
  S2: I don't encourage other people. I say it's your choice.
• 2:06
  S2: It's your life. It's your political career. You do what
• 2:08
  S2: you think is best.
• 2:09
  S1: And they nats the conversations.
• 2:11
  S2: I'm not going to give. That narrows it down a bit.
• 2:13
  S2: I'm not going to give that away. Yeah.
• 2:15
  S1: Well I remember when you left in when you quit
• 2:17
  S1: the Nats in November after months of speculation. You said
• 2:20
  S1: in your speech in the chamber, which I was sitting
• 2:23
  S1: in the press gallery watching, that you felt in some
• 2:26
  S1: ways irrelevant. You used that word and not even two
• 2:28
  S1: months later, you're back here in Parliament and you're called
• 2:31
  S1: by Murray Watt on Monday morning, the the opposition leader.
• 2:35
  S3: At such a high level that you can't deliver homes,
• 2:37
  S3: but you've got to have the skilled workers to deliver
• 2:39
  S3: those homes.
• 2:40
  S4: What are you saying?
• 2:41
  S5: It's an alternative. This is all the alternate universe of
• 2:44
  S5: Murray Watt. It's in the paper today. Murray. There's only
• 2:46
  S5: a couple of hundred of tradies that came into Queensland
• 2:49
  S5: where they actually are needing to build their houses. You're
• 2:52
  S5: not actually bringing in.
• 2:54
  S3: People that are helping. I think that you have to
• 2:56
  S3: hang on. You've got to let.
• 2:57
  S5: Me have a say what you've got, what you've.
• 2:59
  S2: Got.
• 2:59
  S1: So you look like you're having fun.
• 3:01
  S2: Yeah, well, it's like, you know, as I said as well,
• 3:04
  S2: I like when I played football, I liked to be
• 3:06
  S2: on the front row. You know, I liked to be
• 3:07
  S2: in the middle of it. And, uh, I feel I
• 3:09
  S2: give my best to my nation when I'm playing on
• 3:11
  S2: the balls of my toes. Um, and it's just in
• 3:14
  S2: my nature to to sit in the back corner. It
• 3:17
  S2: frustrates me because we only got one life. This is not.
• 3:20
  S2: This is not a dress rehearsal. This is it. And
• 3:22
  S2: so if you got an opportunity to do the very
• 3:24
  S2: best you can, you find your place. The position that
• 3:27
  S2: you can play your best game. And that's precisely what
• 3:29
  S2: I'm doing.
• 3:29
  S1: You've been the Deputy Prime Minister three times. 3 or 2?
• 3:33
  S2: Three. I remember either side of the section 44 case.
• 3:36
  S1: Congratulations on the third one, which I was unaware of. You.
• 3:39
  S1: You've had a big career. Yep. Giant in the National Party?
• 3:42
  S2: Yep.
• 3:43
  S1: You've taken a huge step. That's, uh, prompted accusations of
• 3:47
  S1: your being a rat being disloyal. Uh, all of which
• 3:50
  S1: are credible allegations in some ways, if you're a national.
• 3:53
  S2: Yeah.
• 3:53
  S1: Well, what's what's what's driving you? Well, what makes you
• 3:57
  S1: get up in the morning? Want to be an at.
• 3:58
  S2: Let's look at those allegations. First of all, I think
• 4:01
  S2: nobody can deny that. They did say generational change. They
• 4:04
  S2: wanted me to leave. That's correct.
• 4:06
  S1: That happens to older MPs who've had their guy.
• 4:07
  S2: But they did say that for me.
• 4:09
  S1: They did. But what's wrong about me?
• 4:11
  S2: Well, saying they want you to go.
• 4:12
  S1: But you've had your time.
• 4:14
  S2: Well, obviously I haven't. That's not what the Australian people think.
• 4:16
  S1: Is it because of the polls this week? Of course.
• 4:19
  S1: Let's go into the polls, resolve. Our poll has you
• 4:22
  S1: at 18.
• 4:22
  S2: It's such a negative, horrible thing. You've had your time.
• 4:25
  S2: I mean, you know.
• 4:27
  S1: That's how your colleagues say I'm reflecting.
• 4:29
  S2: That. Well, they're wrong. I mean, it's obvious it's a
• 4:31
  S2: very that is a selfish thing to wander around and
• 4:34
  S2: say to someone who's 58, oh, you've had your time.
• 4:37
  S2: It's is that that's kind of rude, don't you think?
• 4:40
  S2: Just a little bit rude.
• 4:41
  S1: Well, the polls point in your favour, so resolve. Our
• 4:44
  S1: poll this week has One nation, 18%. The Newspoll in
• 4:47
  S1: The Australian. A highly watched poll has you at 22,
• 4:50
  S1: which is 11. over the coalition first time in history.
• 4:54
  S1: It's not clear yet how much of that is solid
• 4:56
  S1: and permanent, and how much is a protest vote early
• 4:58
  S1: in the term against a broken liberal party? Tough economy.
• 5:01
  S1: People are feeling disaffected and, to a lesser extent, maybe
• 5:03
  S1: now a government that's losing some pain. What do you
• 5:06
  S1: think is driving the One Nation vote? Where is this
• 5:08
  S1: coming from? Because it happened before.
• 5:10
  S2: I looked on the fact that you've got some colleagues
• 5:12
  S2: said you've had your time, you've got to go, but
• 5:14
  S2: let's move that.
• 5:14
  S1: Let's make the deputy prime minister three times.
• 5:16
  S2: You can't do that. Obviously, that is such a the
• 5:20
  S2: worst reason of all to give to people. I think
• 5:23
  S2: what's happened, I think the polls are an indicator, not
• 5:26
  S2: locked in vote. Okay. I'm not naive. I've been around
• 5:28
  S2: this game for a fair while, but they are an indicator.
• 5:31
  S2: They're 100% an indicator. And what it says is people
• 5:34
  S2: are now prepared. They feel they have license to say,
• 5:36
  S2: I'm prepared to vote for one nation. We're in the past. Um,
• 5:40
  S2: you know, there might have been some hesitancy about that.
• 5:43
  S2: I think the complexion and the tenor of One Nation
• 5:46
  S2: has changed, and and that's a good thing. And, and
• 5:51
  S2: that's giving more people the capacity to say, well, yeah,
• 5:54
  S2: you know, implied a company. No, I vote for One
• 5:56
  S2: Nation and they don't have to say, I vote for
• 5:58
  S2: one nation and then leave the dinner party. Say no.
• 6:00
  S2: I vote for one nation. That's my choice. I want
• 6:02
  S2: a more deliberate, I want greater clarity. Um, I have
• 6:05
  S2: philosophical principles, and I want them abided by with the
• 6:09
  S2: politicians that I elect. And if they are not going
• 6:11
  S2: to abide by those philosophical principles, then I will find
• 6:14
  S2: another politician to vote for.
• 6:16
  S1: What's created, that kind of permission structure for one nation.
• 6:19
  S5: Yeah, there's.
• 6:20
  S2: Sort of a, well, a conceit that the, the major parties,
• 6:24
  S2: the major blocs believed that they owned the votes. They
• 6:26
  S2: didn't have to earn the votes, they owned the votes.
• 6:29
  S2: And people would, you know, and they'd even say, you know,
• 6:31
  S2: you'll always be a you'll only be a protest party. And,
• 6:34
  S2: you know, all these things are sort of, sort of
• 6:36
  S2: re-endowed the conceit factor which people who enjoy their liberty
• 6:42
  S2: enjoy their freedom, hate being told that we've got you
• 6:45
  S2: in a box and you'll only do what we tell
• 6:46
  S2: you to. They don't like that. And so people say,
• 6:49
  S2: I express my freedom by the car I drive. I
• 6:51
  S2: express my freedom with the house I have. I express
• 6:53
  S2: my freedom with the clothes and the tie I wear.
• 6:55
  S2: And I express my freedom in where I choose to vote. Um,
• 6:58
  S2: and I think that, um, what happened is you had
• 7:03
  S2: tangential issues and sectional interests that started having too much
• 7:08
  S2: sway in the major parties. And I'll give you a
• 7:10
  S2: classic one. We've got to win back teal seats. You
• 7:12
  S2: must have heard that so many times. I presume at
• 7:14
  S2: times even you would have said that, you know, what
• 7:17
  S2: are you going to do about winning back TLC? For sure.
• 7:19
  S2: That's how you really infuriate people if they're not in
• 7:21
  S2: the teal seat, they said. So I am penance and
• 7:25
  S2: payment for you to win back that seat. Right? Okay.
• 7:28
  S2: You go off and win the teal seat, but I'm
• 7:30
  S2: gone by and that's what's happened. And here comes One nation.
• 7:34
  S1: Pauline Hanson said yesterday in a press conference that this
• 7:37
  S1: term for One Nation is about becoming a viable opposition,
• 7:40
  S1: that she wants to form government. You know, some listeners
• 7:42
  S1: at home might, might laugh at that suggestion, given her
• 7:46
  S1: track record, but many people would have said the same
• 7:48
  S1: thing about Nigel Farage, who's now crushing both parties in
• 7:51
  S1: the polls.
• 7:52
  S2: Milano pan maga movement, Donald Trump.
• 7:57
  S1: What do you what do you think the aim is
• 7:59
  S1: for one nation? This term is to replace the National party,
• 8:03
  S1: to compete with Labour, to hold the balance of power
• 8:05
  S1: next term. What are the what are the right.
• 8:06
  S2: Not to be defined by? What another party is, is
• 8:08
  S2: to have purpose and sort of and philosophical structure and
• 8:13
  S2: a sort of a clarity in who you are yourself.
• 8:16
  S2: I don't define who I am by saying, now I'm
• 8:19
  S2: going to talk about Paul, and now we're going to
• 8:21
  S2: work out who I am. Now I'm going to tell
• 8:22
  S2: you who I am and who you are as your business.
• 8:25
  S2: And so I think that one nation doesn't have to
• 8:28
  S2: go chasing or removing or replacing. It just has got
• 8:32
  S2: to define what it believes in itself. And other people
• 8:34
  S2: will make the choice. You have to earn the votes.
• 8:36
  S2: You don't own the votes. And what do they believe?
• 8:39
  S2: And they believe in a clarity of view that says,
• 8:42
  S2: for instance, on issues such as intermittent power that is garbage,
• 8:44
  S2: that the primary purpose of a power policy is to
• 8:47
  S2: look after pensioners and poor people, not look after the,
• 8:51
  S2: you know, the the nuances of Paris agreements and such
• 8:54
  S2: other things which are unattainable, terribly expensive, and cause massive hurt.
• 8:59
  S2: It's to say things as they are, not as you
• 9:01
  S2: might wish them to be. The terrorist attack was Islamic fundamentalism,
• 9:05
  S2: inspired and under the guise of terrorism, Islamic State. That's
• 9:10
  S2: how it was. It wasn't radical Anglicanism. It wasn't radical Copts.
• 9:16
  S2: It wasn't radical.
• 9:17
  S1: I just want to jump in just super quickly. I
• 9:18
  S1: would just say that the government has, at various points,
• 9:21
  S1: pointed to radical Islam as the root cause of the
• 9:24
  S1: terror attacks.
• 9:24
  S2: No, they sort of. Well, I know. Okay. We've just
• 9:28
  S2: had a piece of legislation we voted for just then
• 9:31
  S2: that could have been so succinct, so clean, talking about, um, anti-Semitism,
• 9:37
  S2: which is the people who really are paying the price
• 9:40
  S2: for this. I'm not Jewish, but Jewish people without a
• 9:42
  S2: shadow of a doubt, are the ones who are who
• 9:44
  S2: are in the focus of the sites of those who
• 9:47
  S2: wish them harm. And the ones who predominantly are pursuing
• 9:50
  S2: that course are radical Islamists. That's these things are two truths,
• 9:55
  S2: but people say, I can't say that because, you know.
• 9:57
  S2: So we've got to we've got to say it's wider.
• 9:59
  S2: We've got to bring in all these other things. You know,
• 10:01
  S2: it's Islamophobia. No, it's not, it's, uh, it's whatever. It's, uh, homophobia.
• 10:09
  S2: Definitely not. You know, it's a whole range of other things.
• 10:12
  S2: It's it's anti-Semitism and it's inspired by Israel. Uh, you know,
• 10:19
  S2: it's sort of a jihadist, a form of militant, radical Islam.
• 10:24
  S2: That's what it is. And unless you have the courage
• 10:27
  S2: to define a problem, you have no credibility or process
• 10:32
  S2: on how to fix it and what we've just. And
• 10:34
  S2: then now we've got this thing where something as a
• 10:38
  S2: backbencher in One Nation, I brought to the attention of
• 10:41
  S2: the chamber a fatal flaw in the bill, which they
• 10:45
  S2: all then ignored. The floor voted for the bill, and
• 10:47
  S2: now they're over in the Senate, recognizing what I'd brought
• 10:50
  S2: to their attention and trying to fix it.
• 10:52
  S1: The government It strikes me just on your your points
• 10:56
  S1: about clarity of message, that something that's driving the One
• 11:00
  S1: Nation voters is the simplicity of the rhetoric. Pauline Hanson's
• 11:04
  S1: not necessarily the most sophisticated political operator, but you're not
• 11:07
  S1: trying to straddle different parts of the political spectrum. You're
• 11:09
  S1: speaking very directly to one part of the community, and
• 11:11
  S1: the Liberal Party might be looking at different communities. What
• 11:14
  S1: are the limits, do you think, on that straight talk,
• 11:17
  S1: particularly from your Senate leader or party leader, Pauline Hanson,
• 11:21
  S1: in terms of rhetoric that might alienate big chunks of
• 11:24
  S1: the community, don't allow you to become a viable opposition.
• 11:27
  S1: I mean, the burqa stunt a couple of months ago
• 11:29
  S1: that raised up in people's minds, even when she was
• 11:33
  S1: polling really well, all of the accusations about racism that
• 11:36
  S1: have plagued her career can can she continue on speaking about,
• 11:41
  S1: you know, racial anxiety in our community in the same
• 11:43
  S1: way she always has? If you want to grow, is
• 11:46
  S1: that your job to to kind of civilize one nation?
• 11:49
  S2: Well, Pauline is who.
• 11:50
  S1: Paul, Pauline.
• 11:52
  S2: Pauline is who Pauline is. and I am who I am.
• 11:54
  S2: And one of the things we've always discussed is I'll
• 11:57
  S2: remain who I am and Pauline will remain who she is.
• 12:00
  S2: And we actually do get along well and we work together.
• 12:02
  S2: There is a chemistry there. And, um, and that's the
• 12:05
  S2: way it is, I feel, to be quite frank, a
• 12:08
  S2: lot more comfortable now, a lot more liberated now, and
• 12:10
  S2: a lot more purposeful now than I did sitting in
• 12:12
  S2: the back corner of the backbench of the coalition. Um.
• 12:16
  S1: But I'm talking about whether you're comfortable with.
• 12:18
  S2: With.
• 12:18
  S1: One thing.
• 12:19
  S2: I think that things evolve over time. And I think
• 12:22
  S2: the Pauline Hanson that originally came into Parliament is, um,
• 12:28
  S2: has matured immensely from that person to where she is now.
• 12:31
  S2: I think. I think everybody would say now that is
• 12:33
  S2: a lot more streetwise, a lot more wily. I don't
• 12:35
  S2: think she's become less authentic, but she's become more aware. And, um,
• 12:40
  S2: and that's, that's a good thing.
• 12:42
  S1: If your primary remains where it is now, let's just
• 12:45
  S1: say hypothetically, it does.
• 12:46
  S2: Yeah. That's probably why I'm not going. Yeah. I'm not
• 12:49
  S2: I'm not going to start saying that that's, you know,
• 12:50
  S2: that I'm not getting carried away with this I understand
• 12:54
  S2: that is an incredible it's an incredible reflection of people's
• 12:57
  S2: willingness to trust. But anybody who says, oh, that's your vote. No, no, no,
• 13:00
  S2: the vote comes in an election.
• 13:02
  S1: Which is why I think Hanson's claim yesterday that she
• 13:04
  S1: wants to come into government was was a bit of overreach.
• 13:07
  S1: But even in a low 20s primary vote, if it
• 13:09
  S1: remains there, that's extraordinary.
• 13:11
  S2: Um, I'll tell you what that definitely would mean. It
• 13:13
  S2: would definitely mean that any person on the let's call
• 13:15
  S2: them what they're supposed to be conservative. The conservative side
• 13:18
  S2: will definitely need, um, One Nation support if they've got
• 13:21
  S2: any chance whatsoever of going to see the governor general
• 13:24
  S2: to be the Prime Minister.
• 13:25
  S1: Well, this is the point I was going to make.
• 13:26
  S1: So at a low 20s primary vote, given labor will
• 13:28
  S1: preference coalition ahead of One Nation if they stick with
• 13:32
  S1: their standard across the country.
• 13:33
  S2: Even on that. Let's just slow down on that one,
• 13:36
  S2: because I do talk to Labor Party people as well.
• 13:39
  S2: You know, let's the world's changed, right? Let's just say
• 13:43
  S2: the world's changed there. Remember there are marginal Labor Party
• 13:47
  S2: seats too. So thinking that you completely own the vote
• 13:51
  S2: is a dangerous place to be.
• 13:54
  S1: So if you remain at that level, which you in
• 13:57
  S1: all likelihood won't, you probably won't win any lower house
• 14:00
  S1: seats because of the preference situation. But if you remain
• 14:03
  S1: anywhere near that level, you almost you go a long
• 14:06
  S1: way to wiping out the coalition in the Senate, because
• 14:08
  S1: to win a number two spot in most states, you
• 14:10
  S1: need your primary vote up above 2,829%. So I wonder
• 14:14
  S1: where will you where do you feel like at this
• 14:15
  S1: point in the cycle, which is early, I acknowledge where
• 14:18
  S1: do you think you'll be spending your electoral energy? Will
• 14:21
  S1: it be in lower house seats, Senate seats? Where can
• 14:24
  S1: you win?
• 14:25
  S2: No, I definitely think the lower house seats to win.
• 14:26
  S2: I think it's just look, well, I'm trying to work
• 14:31
  S2: out the I know I'm trying to work out whether
• 14:34
  S2: it's worthwhile saying it because then it says you're not.
• 14:36
  S2: Why do I not select ones? Because it says you're
• 14:39
  S2: not nominating others, right? But let's talk about where one
• 14:42
  S2: nation has a strong vote in the Hunter Valley, okay.
• 14:45
  S2: And the funny thing about that is you're dragging votes
• 14:46
  S2: from the Labour Party, not the coalition. Um, and places
• 14:49
  S2: like Blair. Same deal. It's your dragon votes from the
• 14:52
  S2: Labour Party, not from the coalition. Ah, new England will
• 14:55
  S2: have a strong one nation vote. How do I know that?
• 14:58
  S2: Before I'd even announced or told anybody I was leaving
• 15:02
  S2: to join my nation. The vast majority of my town
• 15:05
  S2: was branch, unbeknownst to me, had walked out and started
• 15:07
  S2: the One Nation branch. And so it's organic. It was
• 15:10
  S2: happening everywhere. And when I walk around New England now,
• 15:13
  S2: you get people literally like, it's really, um, humbling. You
• 15:18
  S2: walk in and they start clapping. It's a, there's a
• 15:20
  S2: real sort of sense of frustration out there in the
• 15:23
  S2: community with politics, and they want to see some clarity.
• 15:27
  S2: The Bondi thing had a lot to do with it,
• 15:29
  S2: a lot to do with it.
• 15:30
  S1: Do you think that's changed politics in this country?
• 15:32
  S2: Yep. You bet. Because it wasn't. It's yeah, anti-Semitic was
• 15:36
  S2: absolutely a big part of it. But there was also
• 15:38
  S2: a lot of people just fell to front like. So
• 15:41
  S2: two people went and like, had a turkey shoot on
• 15:45
  S2: Australian people on a beach on a Sunday in the
• 15:47
  S2: middle of Sydney. And they just went. Wow. That's that's
• 15:53
  S2: that's that's not bad. And all of a sudden and
• 15:56
  S2: they haven't got over it. They're still in their forefront
• 15:59
  S2: of their mind like okay, you know, you think we've
• 16:03
  S2: you found our tipping point. You've got there. You've reached it.
• 16:05
  S2: And we're going to demand. Demand that that does not
• 16:09
  S2: happen again. And we are going to we want you
• 16:12
  S2: to be brave enough to define the problem and deal
• 16:14
  S2: with it.
• 16:15
  S1: Has it changed the way. A a white politician can
• 16:21
  S1: talk about multiculturalism in the mainstream of Australian politics in
• 16:24
  S1: the same way as The Voice changed the way you
• 16:26
  S1: were able to talk about indigenous affairs, arguably to the
• 16:28
  S1: detriment of Indigenous Australians?
• 16:29
  S2: I don't know. Well, okay, I disagree with you on
• 16:32
  S2: you know, I disagree with you fervently that.
• 16:34
  S1: Arguably.
• 16:35
  S2: Argue. Yeah. Well, whatever the in my area, I get
• 16:38
  S2: the majority of the Aboriginal vote in in my area
• 16:40
  S2: they call themselves Aboriginals and I grew up in a
• 16:43
  S2: black white town. I know it very, very well. My
• 16:44
  S2: kids go to a black white school. They go to
• 16:46
  S2: a local state school, and it's one of the poorest
• 16:48
  S2: schools in New South Wales. Um, so I don't talk.
• 16:52
  S2: I'm not Aboriginal. Of course I'm a white fella. Um,
• 16:55
  S2: but I do speak with some authority, as I know
• 16:58
  S2: it vastly better than most people. And I can assure you,
• 17:00
  S2: there are areas around me in one of my biggest
• 17:02
  S2: Aboriginal communities, Tinga, only 15% voted for the voice. It
• 17:07
  S2: was a belief more of to, to be quite frank,
• 17:11
  S2: of maybe where you reside, that you had a perception
• 17:14
  S2: of how we saw things, which was not the reality
• 17:16
  S2: of how we did for them. They they saw through
• 17:19
  S2: the parochialism of certain people in certain, uh, you know,
• 17:24
  S2: positions would get a further laurel and a further crown
• 17:28
  S2: and get a further pay cheque, and their lives would
• 17:31
  S2: remain basically where they were. So, um, now to to
• 17:35
  S2: go on to the next issue, uh, where you say,
• 17:37
  S2: does this give us authority to talk about racial? I
• 17:39
  S2: don't find that the people who come up to me
• 17:42
  S2: are all white Caucasians from Mossman who are really saying,
• 17:48
  S2: rah rah, one nation. Actually, to the contrary. That's probably
• 17:52
  S2: where I'd find the most pushback. Where I find a
• 17:55
  S2: lot of support is in the Filipino community, uh, in
• 17:59
  S2: the Indian community, um, in certainly in sections of the
• 18:04
  S2: Lebanese community, um, there, you know, this is that's it's
• 18:09
  S2: another assertion made by people because they want the world.
• 18:12
  S2: They want the world to see it the way they
• 18:14
  S2: see it from their front veranda, which is not the
• 18:16
  S2: way other people see it from theirs.
• 18:18
  S1: Or conservative social culture in migrant Australia is definitely something
• 18:24
  S1: the progressive side of politics.
• 18:25
  S2: If you'd said that, if you frame the question in
• 18:27
  S2: that form, I would say you're probably you're correct.
• 18:41
  S1: Just going back to your colleagues, uh, I get I
• 18:43
  S1: got the sense when you left the show that you
• 18:46
  S1: felt that there was a group in the National Party,
• 18:49
  S1: probably those aligned to your former boss David Littleproud, who
• 18:53
  S1: were happy to see you go and who celebrated it.
• 18:55
  S2: No no no no. Not who I felt who were
• 18:58
  S2: on television celebrating, remember?
• 19:00
  S1: Have you seen the clip of them allegedly hugging? No.
• 19:03
  S1: Have you actually seen it? Because there's conjecture about whether
• 19:05
  S1: it occurred.
• 19:06
  S2: It happened right in front of me.
• 19:07
  S1: So you saw it?
• 19:08
  S2: Yeah, I was I was in the chamber.
• 19:09
  S1: Explain to listeners what you heard.
• 19:11
  S2: I was just shaking hands and slapping each other on
• 19:14
  S2: the back. And, you know, the wicked, the wicked wizards
• 19:17
  S2: dead and sort of thing. That's fine.
• 19:19
  S1: And who were they?
• 19:20
  S2: Well, I'll let them talk about themselves. Right. But it's
• 19:25
  S2: I just find it becomes sort of like. But it's
• 19:28
  S2: not like it's kind of. It sort of happened. It
• 19:30
  S2: did happen. It happened right in front of me.
• 19:32
  S1: Well, there's a lot of chatter around the National Party
• 19:35
  S1: that you will personally campaign in the lower house seats
• 19:37
  S1: of Darren Chester, David Littleproud, Pat Monahan to I'm not
• 19:42
  S1: going to say it's revenge. I don't want to put
• 19:44
  S1: that motive on you, but is that something you intend
• 19:47
  S1: to do?
• 19:48
  S2: Um, I'm certainly going to campaign for, uh, the New
• 19:52
  S2: South Wales Senate seat. Um, definitely. And that means after
• 19:56
  S2: campaign where the the voters of New South Wales are because,
• 19:59
  S2: you know, that's the seat I'm standing for. Um, I'll
• 20:02
  S2: do other jobs as required. But there's I, I'm going
• 20:06
  S2: I'm going to campaign on issues, not on people. Okay.
• 20:09
  S2: I'm going to campaign on issues, not on people. So
• 20:11
  S2: to give more clarity to that, I have absolutely no
• 20:13
  S2: plan to pick on a certain area or a certain person.
• 20:17
  S2: There is nothing in that remit. Um, if if you're
• 20:20
  S2: going through an area, then you're going through an area
• 20:21
  S2: on a policy issue, you're really minimising yourself. You say,
• 20:24
  S2: If I'm going to campaign against a person, person A,
• 20:28
  S2: then why didn't this go stand in their lower house seat, mate,
• 20:32
  S2: if that's all you got worried about, go Senate seat
• 20:34
  S2: against them.
• 20:35
  S1: Well if you if you if your party truly believe
• 20:37
  S1: that you're an alternative government, you probably would have stood
• 20:40
  S1: in New England again rather than running for the Senate.
• 20:43
  S2: Um, yeah. Look, it's, uh.
• 20:45
  S1: Why didn't you do that when I.
• 20:48
  S2: I look, when I left the National Party, I was
• 20:51
  S2: really torn. It was like leaving a it was like
• 20:52
  S2: leaving a marriage. It really tears you to pieces. And
• 20:56
  S2: I just, I knew the I knew the political marriage
• 21:00
  S2: was over, I knew I was out. Um, and I just,
• 21:04
  S2: I just didn't want to go to court over the.
• 21:07
  S2: I just said basically the house, the jewelry, the. It's
• 21:09
  S2: all yours. Okay. I'm. I'm gone.
• 21:11
  S1: And there would have been a sense that there was
• 21:13
  S1: an illegitimacy about rating.
• 21:15
  S2: Basically they say, well, look, there's a seat. Yeah. And
• 21:17
  S2: also knowing that I brought in a heap of money
• 21:19
  S2: which I left in their account.
• 21:20
  S1: Do you could you reconsider that and run in New England?
• 21:23
  S2: Uh. It's not. Look, I've said I'm standing for the Senate,
• 21:27
  S2: and I just I just I'm just going to focus
• 21:30
  S2: on the Senate. Like, you know.
• 21:31
  S1: But you seem like you're conflicted about this.
• 21:33
  S2: No, I just think that I want. Okay. My confliction
• 21:37
  S2: is I certainly want the the the one nation to
• 21:43
  S2: have good lower house candidates. Right.
• 21:46
  S1: And they struggle with quality candidates.
• 21:48
  S2: And I don't want to, you know, I don't want
• 21:50
  S2: to send a message out on the water. The only
• 21:54
  S2: way you're ever going to get anywhere in one nation
• 21:56
  S2: is to be in the Senate. I want people to
• 21:58
  S2: move on from that. And I'm going to say, I
• 22:00
  S2: want you to understand you can get somewhere in the
• 22:02
  S2: House of Representatives as well. And so I don't want
• 22:05
  S2: to sort of harp on. Well, you know, it'd sort
• 22:08
  S2: of be like, oh, I'll be fine in the Senate because,
• 22:11
  S2: you know, I've gone well, but you just jump over the,
• 22:13
  S2: you know, jump out of the trenches in the lower
• 22:15
  S2: house and get shot.
• 22:16
  S1: So any chance you go in New England?
• 22:18
  S2: No, no I haven't. I've made I've made my I
• 22:22
  S2: made my mind up to stand for the for the
• 22:25
  S2: for the Senate.
• 22:26
  S1: Yeah. I think you probably underestimated what the primary vote
• 22:28
  S1: would be in polling though, right?
• 22:30
  S2: Even I thought that wasn't going to be as good
• 22:33
  S2: as what it was, but it's, um. And I'm usually
• 22:37
  S2: but it's that's, you know, that's a reflection, a great
• 22:40
  S2: reflection on Pauline, a great reflection on the One Nation team,
• 22:43
  S2: but it's also a reflection on the malaise that people
• 22:46
  S2: see in what the alternative is.
• 22:49
  S1: I've heard people say that when Pauline Hanson goes off
• 22:52
  S1: TV for a few weeks, the One Nation primary rises,
• 22:54
  S1: so it might be have the opposite effect.
• 22:56
  S2: Well, that would make us the government.
• 23:01
  S1: So you talked about political marriages? Yeah. Um, do you
• 23:04
  S1: think it'd be fair to say that Ron Boswell, who
• 23:06
  S1: just passed away, was in some way a political father?
• 23:09
  S2: He's a great man. And he heard, like Ron saw
• 23:13
  S2: everything through. I've known Ron since 2002, been multiple campaigns
• 23:19
  S2: with him. Ron saw things through those eyes of that time.
• 23:23
  S1: Well, you were getting ahead of my question.
• 23:25
  S2: Yeah.
• 23:26
  S1: So for listeners at home, particularly for those who are
• 23:28
  S1: not from Queensland, who may not know Ron Boswell, he
• 23:30
  S1: was the national Senate leader for a long time.
• 23:32
  S2: 17.
• 23:32
  S1: Years really influential thinker in the National Party, died at
• 23:35
  S1: the age of 85 last.
• 23:36
  S2: Week, 31 years in.
• 23:37
  S1: Politics. Prime Minister attended his funeral, as did Peter Dutton
• 23:39
  S1: and Barnaby Joyce. I want to read to him to
• 23:42
  S1: you a quote from his Australian article from December. Do
• 23:44
  S1: you mind if I do that?
• 23:45
  S2: It wouldn't be endearing to me, but here we go.
• 23:46
  S1: You've, uh. He been you has left the political home
• 23:51
  S1: that raised him, shaped him and supported him. But as
• 23:54
  S1: with any family, the door remains open when he remembers
• 23:56
  S1: where he truly belongs. His choice does not alter the
• 23:58
  S1: truth about one nation. It is not a party of government.
• 24:01
  S1: It has no record of delivery. It fuels resentment rather
• 24:03
  S1: than responsibility, and threatens to fracture the centre right in
• 24:06
  S1: a way that benefits only Labour and the Greens.
• 24:09
  S2: Yes, I love Ron, okay, and I'm never going to
• 24:13
  S2: speak de mortuis nil nisi bonum, as my good Jesuit uh,
• 24:17
  S2: friends would remind me of speak nothing but good of
• 24:19
  S2: the dead.
• 24:20
  S1: Go on. The argument's not the man, though.
• 24:22
  S2: Well, yeah, the arguments are correct if you're talking about, um, history,
• 24:27
  S2: but they're not correct as to where we are today. Okay.
• 24:30
  S2: Ron's been out of politics now for a fair while,
• 24:32
  S2: and he's a he was he is with our Lord.
• 24:36
  S2: But and he remains a person I'll always hold in
• 24:40
  S2: high esteem. But he doesn't see the politics as we see.
• 24:44
  S2: In fact, I was a regular visitor to Ron at
• 24:47
  S2: his house, where he would be frustrated and demanding that
• 24:52
  S2: I do something about getting rid of net zero. And
• 24:55
  S2: I had to lead, and I had to do this,
• 24:57
  S2: and I had to do that. And, you know, I did.
• 25:00
  S2: I went about constructing a process where the coalition ditched
• 25:06
  S2: its net zero commitment, but I kept on explaining to him.
• 25:09
  S2: I said, Ron, you've got to understand that's not the
• 25:11
  S2: position of the coalition. He goes, oh, well, you've just
• 25:13
  S2: got to change it. And I go, well, Ron, you're
• 25:16
  S2: you're asking me to change the coalition. I can't just
• 25:21
  S2: change the coalition. And and in the end, he was frustrated.
• 25:26
  S2: I said, Ron, you know what? I've realized? The changes
• 25:29
  S2: that you want, I can only bring about by being
• 25:31
  S2: in one nation because they're actually closer to your political
• 25:34
  S2: beliefs than where the coalition is. You have you have
• 25:39
  S2: this filial connection. It's your totem. You you have a
• 25:44
  S2: whole range of affections, even though they went after you.
• 25:48
  S2: But if I was to give you complete amnesia about
• 25:52
  S2: all your. I didn't say this, but this is me
• 25:55
  S2: paraphrasing my discussions. Um, if he was to have total
• 25:59
  S2: amnesia about all his past political affiliations, had his philosophy
• 26:04
  S2: arrived down here and he said, now, quick, run to
• 26:06
  S2: the party that most best, that most closely reflects your
• 26:10
  S2: belief structure. Ron Boswell, you'd end up in one nation.
• 26:13
  S1: You were in the coalition government, obviously, in very senior roles,
• 26:16
  S1: for nine years. Yes. That was the government that, uh,
• 26:19
  S1: continued on with the immigration program that's been bipartisan. It
• 26:23
  S1: thrust Australia into the global net zero movement. It did
• 26:26
  S1: very little to break out of Center-right kind of policy orthodoxy.
• 26:30
  S1: Why didn't you change things from inside?
• 26:32
  S2: Well, I did try to change things from inside.
• 26:35
  S1: And the Deputy Prime Minister, when you signed up to
• 26:36
  S1: net zero.
• 26:37
  S2: Now everyone brings it up. But can we just go
• 26:38
  S2: through that?
• 26:39
  S1: Let's not go through the whole.
• 26:39
  S2: No no no no no, you you've got to give
• 26:41
  S2: me the space to to correct the statement. Okay.
• 26:46
  S1: That's quick.
• 26:48
  S2: That's better, Mr. Joyce. The. You don't have to say that, but, um, the, uh.
• 26:52
  S2: So I've voted within the National Party room against supporting
• 26:56
  S2: net zero. After I'd cut the deal from heaven, I
• 26:59
  S2: believe it was ridiculous. The things that were getting any
• 27:01
  S2: in the end. You know what? We never got any
• 27:03
  S2: of them. Because the liberals welshed on the deal. So
• 27:07
  S2: why then that's still involved with it in Paris? You
• 27:10
  S2: haven't got a deal. There are no bridges, there's no dams,
• 27:13
  S2: there's there's none. All the stuff that I bargained for,
• 27:17
  S2: some of it they're going forward with. But most of
• 27:19
  S2: it they dropped off. So you don't have to honour
• 27:22
  S2: anything because they haven't honoured the deal.
• 27:25
  S1: Okay. The Australian political system is vastly different to that
• 27:29
  S1: of the UK and the US, where you're seeing these
• 27:31
  S1: Anglosphere populist rises, how do we know that a one
• 27:36
  S1: nation that mimics the US and UK populist movements will
• 27:39
  S1: work here? How do we know this?
• 27:40
  S2: Well it won't.
• 27:41
  S1: Are you confident.
• 27:42
  S2: That. No, it won't if it mimics Australia is Australia,
• 27:44
  S2: it's a different place.
• 27:45
  S1: How do how does One Nation differ from the Farage
• 27:47
  S1: MAGA movement?
• 27:48
  S2: Are vastly I think that they're Australian. It's very ethos,
• 27:51
  S2: it's very nature. I hopefully I'm a reflection of myself.
• 27:55
  S2: We're a more egalitarian or easygoing, um, we call BS
• 27:59
  S2: on stuff a lot. Even the relationship with the media
• 28:02
  S2: is more, um, it's not it's not, you know, it's
• 28:06
  S2: not deferential, it's very robust. And, and, uh, and matter
• 28:11
  S2: of fact, um, we walk down the street, we don't
• 28:14
  S2: have bodyguards. It's a completely different approach in Australia. And
• 28:18
  S2: I don't think if you if you start mimicking the
• 28:20
  S2: United States of America or for the class system in
• 28:24
  S2: England or anything like that, you're going to come unstuck
• 28:26
  S2: because you're in the wrong country.
• 28:27
  S1: Is there do we do we share the general level
• 28:30
  S1: of dissatisfaction, economic malaise, and lack of trust in our
• 28:34
  S1: institutions for a movement like this to thrive?
• 28:35
  S2: Yeah, I think people where it is that there's a
• 28:37
  S2: commonality is people are sick of butterfly chasing crazy ideas
• 28:43
  S2: no matter where you are. Paris agreement net zero. Um.
• 28:47
  S2: You know, the belief that the whole world is sort of,
• 28:50
  S2: sort of a utopian splendor when you've got the rise
• 28:53
  S2: of China, which is quite obviously a totalitarian regime, which
• 28:56
  S2: is going to rip your throat out. Um, these are,
• 28:59
  S2: you know, this is this is the reality. And people
• 29:01
  S2: want to hear they know the truth. They want to
• 29:04
  S2: hear it from their politicians. They don't want to hear
• 29:06
  S2: the politicians sort of pitching and pivoting to a sectional
• 29:10
  S2: interest and just thinking that they've got their vote in
• 29:13
  S2: their back pocket, that, that that is the commonality across
• 29:16
  S2: the world.
• 29:17
  S1: I want to ask about Gina Rinehart, and I don't
• 29:20
  S1: come at this question from a position of, uh, assuming
• 29:23
  S1: that the relationship is inherently corrupt because powerful people.
• 29:26
  S2: Means he's assuming the relationship.
• 29:28
  S1: Because I.
• 29:28
  S2: Know that's.
• 29:29
  S1: Corrupt. That is where a lot of the questioning comes from.
• 29:31
  S1: A wealthy person has a right to back a movement
• 29:32
  S1: that they believe 100%. I firmly believe that. But I
• 29:36
  S1: think if you're trying to turn into a more mainstream
• 29:39
  S1: political force, it's also fair to ask that that relationship
• 29:43
  S1: be explained a little bit more than we understand.
• 29:46
  S2: That's interesting, because why don't people explain Simon Holmes, the
• 29:49
  S2: court's relationship with the teals?
• 29:50
  S1: We think it should be.
• 29:51
  S2: Why do we.
• 29:51
  S1: Put we put a spotlight.
• 29:52
  S2: On it. Why didn't explain, um, Andrew Forrest's relationship with
• 29:56
  S2: the Labor Party? I mean, everybody, all people. Just because
• 30:00
  S2: they have money doesn't mean they don't have political views.
• 30:02
  S2: People do have political views. Andrew Forrest has a strong
• 30:04
  S2: political view that's aligned with the Labor Party. Um, Simon Holmes,
• 30:08
  S2: a court has a strong political view that's aligned with
• 30:10
  S2: the teals. Um, Gina Rinehart has a strong political view.
• 30:13
  S2: That's that's not aligned with any party, but it's conservative.
• 30:16
  S1: I agree with you, conservative.
• 30:17
  S2: And that's that's their right. And you know what? If
• 30:20
  S2: you didn't have big backers at times, it makes life very,
• 30:24
  S2: very difficult because you ultimately you guys you guys want
• 30:28
  S2: advertising revenue. You do. You don't put any of our
• 30:30
  S2: ads on for free. You make us pay. And so
• 30:32
  S2: we've got to have money to, to, for, for to
• 30:35
  S2: be paid. And people aren't we don't change. We are
• 30:38
  S2: who we are. People decide to align with us. We
• 30:40
  S2: don't go aligned to to them, they align to us.
• 30:44
  S2: And many times people also got to have you got
• 30:47
  S2: to understand there are times where I'll fervently disagree with
• 30:50
  S2: Gina Rinehart. Well, we're not we're not. Just because they
• 30:53
  S2: turn up doesn't mean you agree with everything you say. Look,
• 30:55
  S2: sorry on that one. I disagree with.
• 30:56
  S1: You. I take all your points there. Our newspapers have
• 30:58
  S1: long put a spotlight on the relationship between donors and
• 31:00
  S1: political parties, and that's left and right. Yeah. The Gina
• 31:04
  S1: Rinehart relationship with One Nation is fascinating because she's previously
• 31:07
  S1: been a big donor to the LNP. That relationship might have.
• 31:09
  S2: Been donated to the Labor Party, too, just quietly.
• 31:11
  S1: Probably not for a long time.
• 31:12
  S2: No, no. You've been go back and check your declarations
• 31:15
  S2: and look at Hancock Coles, donate to the Labor Party.
• 31:17
  S1: You've been wearing Kidman clothes. She's been providing steak for
• 31:19
  S1: your meetings with Pauline Hanson. Has she donated a plane
• 31:22
  S1: or are you just using the plane?
• 31:24
  S2: She hasn't donated a plane to me. Um, I've used
• 31:27
  S2: her plane.
• 31:28
  S1: She's donated plane to Pauline Hanson.
• 31:29
  S2: Yeah. Uh, look, even that I'm talking out of school,
• 31:33
  S2: that is. I don't know the answer to that.
• 31:34
  S1: Is that a recent thing or.
• 31:36
  S2: Well, if it is, it's a recent thing, right? But
• 31:38
  S2: I certainly have been on her A jet. Now, what
• 31:42
  S2: was funny about that is I'm on a jet to
• 31:44
  S2: go to Mount Isa. What would you have preferred that
• 31:46
  S2: I was on the taxpayer's jet and the taxpayer paid
• 31:48
  S2: for it. I mean, what's wrong with an Australian taxpayer
• 31:53
  S2: saying rather than use the getting other taxpayers to pay
• 31:56
  S2: for this, remember we're going to look at people, visit
• 31:58
  S2: people dealing with the flood. This is not going to
• 32:00
  S2: a wedding or a funeral or or, you know, a
• 32:02
  S2: game of bridge. It's to see people during the flood.
• 32:05
  S2: And a person who is blessed with wealth says, rather
• 32:09
  S2: than you charge this to the taxpayer, why don't you
• 32:11
  S2: use mine and fly up there on that?
• 32:12
  S1: What are the limits or potential upsides of the relationship? What?
• 32:17
  S1: And also what policies she interested on your side? How
• 32:20
  S1: much of.
• 32:20
  S2: Your.
• 32:21
  S1: Election campaign she'll bankroll?
• 32:22
  S2: I think it's really important. I've never been told by
• 32:27
  S2: Gina Rinehart to you must do this. You mustn't do anything.
• 32:29
  S2: It's always been in conversation. I'll give you a tip.
• 32:33
  S2: People who have gone a long way in life and
• 32:36
  S2: business are generally not so naive as to start telling
• 32:39
  S2: politicians what to do. They'll have discussions. They'll have views.
• 32:43
  S2: But they don't have instructions. And I'll have to say
• 32:46
  S2: that would be the same with Andrew Forrest. And it
• 32:47
  S2: would be, I don't know. I know Simon, but I
• 32:49
  S2: don't know Simon as well. Right. But even Andrew Forrest,
• 32:53
  S2: he's never that dopiest to tell you how you got
• 32:55
  S2: to go. And neither is Gina Rinehart. And, um, if
• 33:00
  S2: you do, if you do tell a politician what to do,
• 33:04
  S2: they can get themselves in an awful lot of trouble
• 33:06
  S2: because you can say, are you trying to affect a
• 33:08
  S2: public office? Are you are you offering me something in
• 33:10
  S2: a public office to do something? You know, be really
• 33:13
  S2: careful or or as has happened? Or are you trying
• 33:17
  S2: to get me to remove myself from a public office?
• 33:19
  S2: Are you. Did you offer me some money to remove
• 33:21
  S2: myself from a public office? Because I think that's punishable
• 33:23
  S2: by 15 years in jail. I'm pretty sure about that.
• 33:24
  S2: Commonwealth Crimes Act.
• 33:26
  S1: Does been heavily funded by, I think, the richest woman
• 33:30
  S1: in Australia. I think that's definitely.
• 33:33
  S2: Definitely the richest.
• 33:33
  S1: Woman in question, whether she's the richest person in Australia.
• 33:36
  S1: Does that clash with the idea that One Nation is, um,
• 33:39
  S1: in it for the battler.
• 33:41
  S2: No, no, I think you would find that most people
• 33:44
  S2: don't determine their view of your policy by your your friends,
• 33:48
  S2: but actually what your policies are. You know, they say,
• 33:51
  S2: are you in here to look after pensioners who can't
• 33:53
  S2: afford their power bills? Yep. Okay, I like you. Are
• 33:56
  S2: you here to make sure that we develop regional Australia? Yep.
• 33:59
  S2: I like you. Are you here to make sure that
• 34:02
  S2: I don't get murdered if I go to the beach?
• 34:06
  S2: I like you. Do I need to know who your
• 34:09
  S2: friends are? Not really. Do I need to like you
• 34:11
  S2: as a politician? Not really. Do I need to like
• 34:14
  S2: the friends of the politician? Not really.
• 34:17
  S1: What does 2026 hold? What do you want to prosecute?
• 34:19
  S1: And what policies might One Nation release?
• 34:21
  S2: Now, this one's going to come from the biggest issue
• 34:23
  S2: for 2026 is next year's 2027. Isn't it.
• 34:27
  S1: Election year?
• 34:27
  S2: No, no. That's when XI Jinping is going to take Taiwan.
• 34:32
  S2: Where in the year is that by 2027? We're in 2026.
• 34:36
  S2: This world could be about to be turned completely and
• 34:40
  S2: utterly upside down. Now let's go away from the horrific
• 34:43
  S2: side of a war which, if it's hot and we're
• 34:47
  S2: involved with tens of thousands of Australians will die, will
• 34:50
  S2: be like the First World War and Second World War.
• 34:52
  S2: Please God, pray that it never, ever happens. But let's
• 34:55
  S2: look at the economic consequences.
• 34:56
  S1: Do you think Australia should be involved?
• 34:58
  S2: No, just let's hear the economic consequences. Iron ore exports
• 35:02
  S2: are finished. Your coal exports are finished. Your gas exports
• 35:06
  S2: are finished. Large section. Your beef exports are finished. Your
• 35:09
  S2: cotton exports are finished. Your tourism all that's finished. Your
• 35:13
  S2: dollar is going to be worth nothing. Nothing. Inflation will
• 35:18
  S2: go through the roof. The only way to get any
• 35:22
  S2: value back in the dollar is to come some crazy
• 35:24
  S2: jack up interest rates as high as they can possibly go.
• 35:27
  S2: We will be an economic basket case, and I don't
• 35:30
  S2: see anything happening down there that's preparing us for it.
• 35:34
  S2: They should have every senior minister and shadow minister on
• 35:38
  S2: their pegs saying what their plan is. And you guys
• 35:41
  S2: in the Fourth Estate haven't questioned them on that either.
• 35:44
  S1: What should we do with military spending?
• 35:47
  S2: You've got to you've got to make Australia as powerful
• 35:50
  S2: as possible, as quickly as possible. You've got to raise it,
• 35:52
  S2: but you can't raise it unless you can pay for
• 35:54
  S2: it and you can't pay for it. If you're going
• 35:55
  S2: to chase these other crazy butterflies of net zero Paris agreements.
• 35:59
  S2: We're not, you know, we're going to you know, we're
• 36:01
  S2: not going to build dams. We're you know, we're you
• 36:04
  S2: just you opening yourself up to be knocked out cold,
• 36:08
  S2: if not militarily, economically. And there is nobody in this
• 36:12
  S2: building who seems to be aware of that and preparing
• 36:15
  S2: for it. Isn't that funny? You ask me what the
• 36:17
  S2: big thing about 2026 was, and I said you'd be surprised.
• 36:20
  S2: I was waiting to see if Q2 you'd pick it up.
• 36:24
  S2: Even the fourth estate's not on this.
• 36:26
  S1: Andrew Hastie is in a similar terrain to Pauline Hanson
• 36:30
  S1: and yourself in terms of the issues he's talking about.
• 36:33
  S1: If he was to lead the Liberal Party and there's
• 36:35
  S1: a significant chance that happening this year. How do you
• 36:39
  S1: how do you lead the Liberal Party?
• 36:41
  S2: He did.
• 36:41
  S1: Leave. No. Um, how do you think that would. What
• 36:44
  S1: do you think the dynamic would be between a hasty
• 36:46
  S1: led Liberal party and One Nation?
• 36:48
  S2: I think that, um, that's to be determined by the voters.
• 36:52
  S2: You know, that's. That would be, you know, that's a c.
• 36:56
  S2: I really open a can of worms because as soon
• 36:58
  S2: as I go into that part, you're going to have,
• 36:59
  S2: you know, what about Angus Taylor? What about this? What
• 37:01
  S2: about that? What about something else?
• 37:02
  S1: I don't think Taylor is is, um, in the same
• 37:05
  S1: part of the political spectrum as you.
• 37:07
  S2: I let's see, let's see. Let's see what happens. I
• 37:11
  S2: do want the best for my nation. And going back
• 37:14
  S2: to your previous question is why? If we get this
• 37:17
  S2: wrong in 2026, we get this wrong. We have done
• 37:22
  S2: something really evil because we've really we've had this incredible gift,
• 37:27
  S2: which is Australia, and we just blew it. And when
• 37:32
  S2: you say, oh, that's excessive. No, it's not either. XI
• 37:35
  S2: Jinping is a joker having a little pulling our leg,
• 37:39
  S2: a bit of a bullshit artist, or he's a man
• 37:42
  S2: who's telling the truth. And if he's a man who's
• 37:44
  S2: telling the truth, we've got a big, big problem coming
• 37:47
  S2: our way.
• 37:48
  S1: Barnaby, thank you for joining us.
• 37:50
  S2: You're welcome.
• 38:00
  S1: You can read this story and all our political news
• 38:02
  S1: on our websites, theage.com.au or the Smh.com.au. Today's episode was
• 38:08
  S1: produced by Kai Wong with help from Debbie Harrington. Our
• 38:11
  S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen
• 38:14
  S1: by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. And if you're wondering
• 38:17
  S1: where our esteemed host, Jacqueline Maley, is, she'll be back
• 38:20
  S1: next week. Before you go, follow Inside Politics and leave
• 38:23
  S1: a review for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm Paul Circle,
• 38:26
  S1: and thank you for listening.