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Can Soccer Save the World? · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: The final game of the 2026 FIFA World Cup is
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: now about a week away and I am already.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Excited genuinely sad that this is about to be over.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full-on
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: World Cup junkie, and I don't know what I'm going
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: to do going forward to not do work at the
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: office because we just have the games on all day.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: And what makes this all the more remarkable is that
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: before the World Cup began, there was a global sense
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Trump's America.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Fans from all around the world were worried.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: About ice raids and visa restrictions, travel bans, and then
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: also issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: That one was not resolved, by the way.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: conversation has been about the excitement around the US men's team,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: around the world come to America, fall in love with
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: our cities, our culture, inhale food from Waffle House and
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: has served as a reminder to a lot of us,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I think, that we live in a great country, and
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: one that is defined by its people and not by
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: its politics. So today, to dig into all things World Cup,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty. Gary Lineker,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: he's a former England striker, broadcaster, and co-founder of Goalhanger.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: The guy had a hat trick in the 86 World Cup.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Incredible.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today, he's
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: one of Britain's best-known sports broadcasters. And he's one who
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: has used his platform to speak out about social justice
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: which we'll get into in the interview. Today, Gary is
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: the host of an excellent soccer podcast called The Rest
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Is Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: World Cup. And if you're in the market for a
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: new podcast, check out Goal Hanger. They've got a bunch
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: of great shows. The rest is history.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: The rest is politics. The list goes on.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: And another great way to support progressive independent media is
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: to become a friend of the pod subscriber here with
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Crooked Media. You'll get ad-free episodes of Pod Save America.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: You'll get other great Crooked shows like Pod Save the
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: World is ad-free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: including bonus Pod Save America episodes. You get deep dives
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: great newsletters, much, much more. So becoming a paid subscriber,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: it's the single best way you can support our work
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and help us grow. So if you like what we're doing,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: please consider it. And with that, here's my conversation with
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Gary Lineker. So Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: has become obsessed with this World Cup. So it's really,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: legend like you. As someone who played in two World
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Cups for England, you've covered soccer for decades.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: What are your impressions of the tournament so far?
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: Um, I think it's been quite joyous at times. Um,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: there are always with all big tournaments, especially the world cup,
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: there are always pros and cons, but I think by
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: and large, um, it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. Um,
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: on the pitch, I think the football has been really good. Um,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: and some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know,
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Cape Verde, for example. Um, I think the real joy
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: has probably been the way the fans have celebrated, not
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: shown a lovely humanity and togetherness that we've probably not
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: world that we can get on, even if we're on
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: from all parts of the world.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: So I think that's been wonderful. The tournament's building up now.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Obviously, to the crescendo, the excitement, the big final. But
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: I think it's been way better than I actually thought
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: it would be. We're obviously going into it like we.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: Do in all World Cups.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: We always think there are going to be things that
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: go wrong, and there have been, and things that we
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: perhaps don't like.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: But overall, I think it's been a triumph, really. Yeah.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was sort of why I was wondering.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, in the lead-up to the tournament, there was
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of anxiety about, you know, Trump administration policies,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: the impact on the quality of play from the expansion
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices. I know
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: that one has not been resolved because I've been on StubHub.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: People don't love FIFA generally, right? Gianni Infantino and giving
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: the fucking FIFA Peace Prize and stuff. But once the
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: the clips of the Scottish fans at Fenway Park singing
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: through the seventh inning of a game. Is that like
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: just what happens every FIFA World Cup? Like there's anxieties
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: and then the play starts and we move on or
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: what do you make of it?
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's pretty much how it works.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: So you go, I've covered so many, so many World
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: Cups and I've played in a couple of them. But
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: prior to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: their concerns. There's a lot of anticipation, excitement as well,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: the positive side. But also, let's not go back too far,
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: but let's go to 2014 in Brazil. All the fans
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: with thousands and thousands of people on the streets demonstrating
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: the fact that they're spending so much money on the
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: World Cup stadiums, et cetera, rather than the infrastructure and
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: perhaps the health service in Brazil.
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: Roll on four years, we're in Russia.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Four years previously, they'd invaded Crimea.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: So that was a massive concern.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: When we go on to Qatar and there was concerns
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: about LGBTQ plus rights, People have been dying, building the stadiums.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: But again, going into this one, we were obviously worried
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: about the situation, who's going to be allowed into this country,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: which we never had before.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: We did have concerns, obviously, when the referee, the Somalian referee,
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: wasn't allowed in.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: But, you know, everyone was worried about ice taking fans
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: off the streets, but that's thankfully not really transpired. Yeah.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: so yeah it's it was ever thus really um and
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: you know during the world cups there are always things
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: that you don't like and there's been things like you
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: said the ticket price and i think it's outrageous i
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: mean fifa is supposed to be a non-for-profit organization um
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: they've got billions of pounds or dollars or euros um
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: in the in swiss banks um And obviously, they always
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: say it goes back into the game and a lot
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: of it, of course, does.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: But I don't think.
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: It's right when you've got something as special as a
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: World Cup that profit becomes the most important thing rather
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: right that fans should have to take out a mortgage
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: or sell their car to.
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: Get a ticket to go and watch a football match.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: So I don't like that.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: I don't like the interference we've had in this World
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Cup in terms of what happened with Balogun, the American
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: forward that was, he got a red card, which was,
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: I thought, a really poor decision.
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: But they didn't reverse the decision.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: They just postponed the fact that he's suspension, which felt wrong.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: And now we've got an English player in exactly the
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: same position. He's got two game ban.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: So yeah. You just think, how can this possibly happen?
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: So there are always things in the tournament, but I
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: think the positives far outweigh the negatives overall.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: FIFA is a, well, I want to ask you about
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: FIFA in a bit. I'm sure they're a nonprofit. I
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: would love to see what the line item is for
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Gianni Infantino's private jet this month, because he's at a
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: lot of games that are far away. And boy, they
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: cut to him a bunch during the broadcast, I've noticed.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Before we get to that, though, so you played on
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: some of the biggest professional clubs in England, also in Spain.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: You played for England in 80 international games. How does
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: the feeling of stepping onto the field at the World
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Cup compare to those other big games and moments?
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: Nothing like it.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Representing your country at a World Cup, I think it's
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: the most special thing you can ever do. I would
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: compare it probably to an athlete in the Olympic Games.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: That's their moment every four years. But this is sort of,
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: it's a little bit different to just a medal table compared,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: you know, US always there with China and it's always,
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: always the same people because there's so many different sports involved.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: But football is, it is, is kind of a global sport.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Even you guys have joined in a little bit now.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: You've got a bit of.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Interest I've noticed. So, which is, which is great.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: So it's a chance really, I don't think there's anything
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: like it where you can show your patrioticness um supporting
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: your country but at the same time we we can
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: all get on and enjoy it so um it is
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: unique and when you walk out you know representing your
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: country and you stand there and they're playing the national
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: anthem and and especially if things go well i mean
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: it's this just it's hard to describe it's just like
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: it's just like this is huge um explosion of of
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: joy and but Pride.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: It's amazing.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: You had a hat trick against Poland in the 1986
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: World Cup.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: They were going through some shit at the time. You know,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: they had one party rule. They had Chernobyl. Did you
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: feel bad about that at all? Do you feel bad about,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: you know, beating them that bad?
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: If I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: some terrible things in all countries suffer at different times.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: And we've been responsible for a lot of it over
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: hundreds of years.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: But no, when you're on that football pitch, you just
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: want to play and you want to score and you
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: want to win. And it's nothing like it.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: You were tougher on that country than communism even.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was a tough game.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Now you transition from player to broadcaster to podcaster. Do
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away from
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: unathletic schlubs that used to have them?
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've done that. I think we've added
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: lots of podcasts. I've got a company called Goal Hangout.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: You got some unathletic schlubs on the payroll, you feel like?
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: We've definitely got some of those.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Save some downloads for the rest of us, all right?
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: We've got political pods as well.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, you do. You have some great ones.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: So you mentioned this earlier, the story about Trump calling
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one of
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: America's best players, Flo Balgan, so he could play against Belgium.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: So the U S um, we got worked in that game.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: We lost badly.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: So the suspension of Baligan's red card didn't matter much
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: in terms of the outcome of that specific game. But
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: as you said, that decision is going to be, uh,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: it's going to hang around FIFA's neck for a long time.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: So do you think Baligan deserved a red card on
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: the play? And like, what is the international reaction been
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: to what FIFA did? How big a deal is this?
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: It's, it's a pretty big deal because I think it,
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: it goes against the integrity of our sport. Um, you know,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: you've got to have rules and they've got to be
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: fair and they've got to be the same for everyone.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: You can't have, you know, one rule for one and
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: one rule for another.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Not in our sport. So, and we've never had anything,
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: I don't think, quite like this before. So, you know,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: whilst it probably, well.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: It most certainly didn't make any difference or it might
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: have had.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Some kind of negative effect on America's performance with all
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: the hullabaloo around the story.
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: I don't think so. I mean, Belgium were always.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Likely to beat The US, it's not obviously your primary
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: sport in this country.
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: You're on a road.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: I think you're on a journey where football is growing
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: in this country.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: You've got a league now that's, you know, you've got
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: one or two.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: Of the best players in the world. Messi's here. So
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: I think it is growing. But I've always wondered why
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: in terms of FIFA, they're so obsessed with trying to
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: get America to be super interested in our sport. Because
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: if ever you are, if you ever get all your
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: real athletes playing our game, you might be bloody good.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: And that would be really irritating.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, I knew we were in trouble in
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: that game. Well, we were in trouble already. But when
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Belgium subbed in a striker who had been named league
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: MVP in the Serie A late in the game, this
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: guy Lukaku, and then we subbed in the former coach's
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: son who played for an MLS club in Canada, that
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: kind of told you everything about the quality of the
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: players who were out there.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
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  Speaker 2: me ask you about that us team though. So I
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  Speaker 2: was one of the most fun experiences period I've ever
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: been to sports, whatever concerts, anything, everyone left that stadium
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  Speaker 2: full of hope and excitement and saying the same thing.
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  Speaker 2: Like this is our breakout year. And throughout the group stage,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: we look pretty good. We were operating on felt like
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: we're operating on a different level. And then Belgium shows
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: up and they kick the shit out of us. And
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: it's an unbiased outsider. Like, give it to us straight, Gary.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Were we actually any better this year, the U.S.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Team? And what do you think happened against Belgium?
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Well, I think I remember being interviewed early on after
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: the before the tournament. And you're always asked, obviously, how
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: the host nation will go or one of those nations, America, which.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: And I always said if they got to the last 16,
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: I think that would be a really good effort. Um, I,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: I couldn't really seriously see them getting past anyone that
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: was any good, like a proper big European team on
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: the North African side. But I thought the fact that
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: they did so well in the group stage was a
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: real plus for, for the States and the tournament as
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: a whole.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Cause you want the host.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Nations, um, doing reasonably well. So, um, If I'm really honest,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: rather than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: as I ever saw them going. It's funny, after that
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: first game, you talked about the Panama game when they
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: had that incredible first half and it was really good
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: to see. And I know Mauricio really well, Pochettino, and
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: he's a delightful man and I'm really pleased for him
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: for that.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: And it was a terrific performance.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: All my American friends were coming at me and texting
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: me and saying.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: You were wrong about us, we're going to go all
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: the way.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: And I was going, mate, honestly, I know these World
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Cups and it's always the hope that kills you. As
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: soon as you start believing a little bit, it all
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: goes wrong. As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in that.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: It's happened many, many times. But overall, I thought they
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: did pretty well.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I think the palaver surrounding Balagan's thing did, I don't
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: think it helped them. I think if, I think Mauricio
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: missed the trick there. I think he should have just said, no,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: we're not doing that.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: It's not right.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: I think it would have been a very difficult thing
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: having done that, he would have been probably hung out
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: to dry.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: So it's easy for me to say that. But I
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: think it probably had some kind of effect.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: But overall, you know, you've got half a good team,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: but there's not much depth yet.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: And hopefully the sport will grow, but we'll see.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Pochettino had sat Balogun. I think he might have
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: been the first guy thrown into ICE detention while in
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: a stadium by Trump. So, you know, it's a challenging
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: situation to be in. What do you make of the
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: criticism of America's star player, Christian Pulisic? He did not
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: have a great World Cup. He sobbed himself off with
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: an injury. I've seen some former U.S. men's national team
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: players specifically criticizing him, which feels, I'm sure that's painful
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: for him.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: But what do you make of this criticism?
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: I think it's a little unfair because I think his
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion. I mean,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: Pulisic is a very good player. Very, very good footballer.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: He's had a good career. He's played in England. He's
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: played in Italy. He's a good footballer. But, you know,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: he's on all the billboards here.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, we're doing the show from here in Times Square. Right.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: And he's everywhere.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: And you think, well, it's almost like he's Messi or Ronaldo.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: And with all due respect, he's a very good footballer,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: but he's not a great player. He's not one of
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: the best in the world by a long stretch. But
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I think when you're carrying the hearts of a nation
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was probably
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: so much. So I feel for him, actually. because whilst
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: of a World Cup, in reality, that was never realistically
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: going to happen. So I can sympathize with him to
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: very hard. It's difficult. You know, you're playing best players
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: in the world and they're out to stop you. You know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: I played as a forward all my career. And we
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: have these things called defenders. And they're out there to
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: stop you. By hook or by crook, they'll try it.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: In some way.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Every World Cup, we kind of talk about, is this
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: the U.S. 's year?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Are we going to take soccer to the next level?
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And it's to the point where it's kind of become
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: a running joke. But like, what would that entail? Is
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that more developing the professional level? Are we talking about
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: like getting more kids involved, all of the above?
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: All of the above, really.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: You've got a, you've got a long way to go.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: What you need, you've got a league now, which is,
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: you know, you've had a league before. Obviously we didn't
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: quite work.
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: And we've started again. Now you've got a league.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Um, you need to work out a plan for, for
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: youth football. Um, both, I mean, obviously you've set great
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: examples in the women's game. Um, you're probably the best
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: in the world at that.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: I would say. They're amazing. But you need, I think
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: it needs an overall plan.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: And where you've got to really, I think, concentrate on
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: the young, the youth players, the kids, get them taught properly.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I know I've spent a lot of time in America
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: over the years and I've been to, I've seen, there's
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: a lot of football camps, but You need some kind
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: of proper organization, probably led by the various MLS.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Clubs around the country where.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: They can recruit the best talent and get them properly
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: trained and coached. Obviously, you've got a very different system
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: to us and Europe in all football, really, of how
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: you deal with players that are young. In our country,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: for example, and the same applies across Europe, if you've
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: got any hope of being a soccer player, You've got
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: to join a club when you're 16, your education, they
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: will give you education on the side, but you have
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: to start at 16. Obviously in America with your sports,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: they go to college or they go to university.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: And they get draft picks.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: And by, you know, if you do that in football,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: it's too late. It's too late by the time you're 20.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, there will be, you know, there's always examples
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: that will prove that wrong, but not that many. So
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: I think the whole, I think you really need to
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: have a good think and a proper planning in terms
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: of not just wait for a World Cup and then
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: hope it goes well, but build a long-term future. Look 10, 20,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: 30 years ahead because it is realistically going to take
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: that long for you to challenge.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: So, 2030 is our year is what you're telling me. So,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: let me talk about FIFA. FIFA, famously corrupt organization. In 2015,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: of a hotel in Zurich in their underwear. They were
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: indicted for taking bribes. It's like $ 150 million.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: In bribes, all these sports marketing executives too.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: DOJ has accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Seth Blatter, the former president of FIFA, he's currently banned
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: from soccer-related activities. Gianni Infantino, the new guy, doesn't seem
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: like much of an improvement to me.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I'm casual watching this stuff. Given how much money stands
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: to be made from international soccer, do you have hope
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: of reforming the organization? And what would that even look like?
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: I've been hoping for that for a long time.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: I find it quite depressing, particularly the cases you talked about.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: given the World Cup.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: I didn't have a particular problem with Russia. It's a
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: big footballing nation. They'd never hosted it.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: And I don't really have a problem with it being
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: in the Middle East and Qatar either. But what hurt,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: what made it feel dirty was it was so obvious
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: that the bids were corrupt. And it was latterly proved
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: to be the case that, you know, a lot of
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: them took backhanders for their votes. So I remember thinking
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: this is just truly awful for our game. And then
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: obviously it changed. Infantino came in. I met him.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: He's a nice guy. I've spent time with him. And
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that this would
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: be a change.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't think for one minute now they're
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: putting bongs to people you know, packets full of cash
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: to get votes for the World Cup or individuals or
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: who's going to host it. But I don't like the
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: fact that they're making that much money and I don't
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: see why they need to do that.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: Because they, you know, yes, it goes back into the game,
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: but does it? Does it? We don't really know.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: It's all a little bit secretive and in the Swiss banks.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: So.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: It concerns me. But the sport itself is good. But
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: I think it's the same in all things, isn't it?
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: It's like if you look, even if you look at
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: politics across the world, and then the example of this
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: World Cup where all fans come together. Actually, we just
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: want to get on. I think 90% of the world
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: just want to have a life. They want to be
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: able to afford to have, you know, eat. They want
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: to have a nice home and.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: Just get on with it.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: And I think actually we really like each other all
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: the time. But it's the people at the top, the leaders,
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA, they just
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: don't seem to get that. I don't know whether it's
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: greed or it's ego or whatever.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: It is, but I find it very depressing.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
• 25:59
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• 27:00
  Speaker 1: One challenge we've had here in the U.S. is sports gambling.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: It's really exploded in the U.S. in 2018.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: There was a Supreme Court ruling that basically opened up
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: sports gambling in all sorts of states. A lot of
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: sports league, the professional leagues have embraced gambling and the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: money it brings in. But now, like no surprise, we're
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: seeing indictments and players getting charged with like illegal betting
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: schemes and point shaving and yada.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Yada, yada.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Do you worry about the impact of sports betting on
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: the integrity of professional soccer? It seems a lot harder
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: to fix a soccer game than it is to do
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: like an over-under on like free throws made.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: It's difficult.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to be naive here and say it
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: doesn't go on because I think there are certain things
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: and things have been proven and you can bet on
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: absolutely almost anything now. We've had betting in our country
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: for a long time. But you can bet on how
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: many corners and whether a player's going to get a
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: yellow card. And that opens it up to possible dodgy goings-on.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: So that concerns me. Overall.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: At the top level, players earn so much money that
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: I don't think, there will obviously be the odd exception,
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: I don't think players will be bought.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: But it is a worry for me.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: People can have a bet. I have no problem if
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: somebody wants to bet on something. But what I don't
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: like is the attitude of the betting companies.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: And the way they entice young.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know whether it's the same in America, but,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: you know, in England, they'll entice them in with a
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: very attractive looking bet. You know, like Belgium to beat
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: USA 20 to one. I don't know how you do
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: the odds in this country, but and then they'll get
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: them in. But to do that bet, which is going
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: to win, you've got to.
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: Get an account.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: And so then they're in. And once they're in, I mean,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: it ruins their life. I've seen Kylian Mbappe speak out
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: against the gambling culture around football.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: And I absolutely, totally agree with him. I don't have,
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: the rest is football that I do.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: We've always refused gambling adverts.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: For example. I won't get involved in that.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it is a concern. And it's something
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: that we really need to keep an eye on.
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I especially worry about how seamless and easy it's become
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: to just lay bed after bed after bed from your
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: phone on your couch.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Like there's no friction. There's no bookie. There's no casino.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: There's no nothing. You're just going like this.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: It's terrifying because it's so addictive as well.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very fun.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: I talk to people that work with people in various addictions,
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: whether it's alcohol, drugs, etc.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: As a broadcaster after your career, I know you've been
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: outspoken about a number of issues, including immigration rights, the
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: war in Gaza. I know that the BBC, your former employer,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: didn't always love you talking about issues that.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Were not soccer.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: In the U.S., Athletes are often scolded for having political
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: opinions or talking about social issues. A Fox News host
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: famously told LeBron James to shut up and dribble, which
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: was a very nice way to talk to someone. How
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: did you think about when and how to speak out
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and about what issues?
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: I think it came with social media because suddenly you
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: get a platform. Whereas before social media, unless you're asked
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about certain
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: things outside of football, you don't really get the opportunity
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: to share your views. Um, I've always felt strongly and
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: tried to, you know, stand up for humanitarian rights, um,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: et cetera. Um, so I think it's, I understand why
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: most sports people don't get involved because you do get
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of shit when you do it.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: Um, I, I got that as well.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Um, but it's generally shit from people with some kind
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: of vested interest, um, in the opposite view to that
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: you've got. And it's generally from the people that clamber,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: go on and on and on about free speech.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: They say, you know, F's way is free speech.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: But as soon as you do it as a sports person,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: oh no, you stick to talking about football.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: We don't want to hear your political opinions.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I suppose I got, I started voicing my
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: concerns about various things on social media.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: And it went from there really. But I just, sometimes
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: if I see.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Something where I think there's a dreadful wrong going on,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: I just feel the need to speak up about it.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: And I understand why some people don't because it can
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: make your life very difficult.
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: But for me, the only person you can control really
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: is yourself.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: You know, if you go home at the end of
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, okay,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: I did the right thing today. It probably doesn't make
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: any difference to anybody, but you've got to live with yourself.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it makes a difference. Listen, I
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: think it's, we live in a world where people are
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: very cynical. And when they see someone they know and
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: they trust because they've watched you on TV for 20
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: years talking.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: About the war in Gaza, for example, I think that matters.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: And it makes people think about stuff they might otherwise
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: not have thought about and not have heard about. But also,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: you know, back to our conversation about like the friction-free
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: gambling and the ease of social media. I know it
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: makes it like almost too easy to speak out on
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: things sometimes? Like I know you had an incident where
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: you shared a video that included some offensive imagery. You
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: deleted it. You unreservedly apologized. You said it was a mistake.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: You didn't see, you know, the image in there you
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: never would have shared. But like, did that make you
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: feel like chastened and want to retreat from conversations?
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Or how did you deal with that?
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've had a few incidents over my career
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: with BBC because they have this partiality rules. that actually
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs,
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: but then they moved the goalposts and made.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: It true for everyone. But I'd also got into the
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: habit thing.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: So I'd had a couple of fallouts with them prior,
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: and I always felt I was in the right on those.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: But the last one that.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Kind of made my decision to leave the BBC a
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: little bit earlier was that genuinely concerned me because that
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: was absolutely a.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: An honest error.
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: You know, I was posting something and there was a
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: little tiny rat emoji on the post, which I genuinely
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: didn't see. I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: that stupid enough to have posted that deliberately. And, you know,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I was made aware that it's apparently some kind of
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: anti-Semitic trope. Although, you know, why rodents would ever be
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: compared with human beings, I don't know. but obviously as
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: soon as I was aware of it, I took it
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: straight down and I, I apologize, but I felt bad
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: about that because that was my fault. I should have
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: been more vigilant and I should have seen it. And, and,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: but I didn't, but as soon as I did, I
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: took it down. So that wasn't easy. That was a
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: tough few days. Cause I, I wasn't, I wasn't pleased
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: with myself on that one, but, but it was one
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: of those things. And sometimes things happen for a reason.
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: I think I've been at.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: The BBC for 30 years and it's like a long
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: marriage in the end.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: You, Gently fall out. You go your separate ways.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: For the best sometimes.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: One last question about social issues in soccer. I mean,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: there's just a shocking amount of racism in international soccer.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, earlier this week, a senator in Paraguay tweeted
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: some vile stuff about Kylian Mbappe, who, for those who
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: don't know, is this unbelievably good guy. He's the best
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: player on the French team. He's one of the best
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: in the world. It's hard not to like him, but
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: she's been in this ongoing fight with him now. A
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: couple of years ago, England lost in the finals of
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: the European Championship game. And then three black players on
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: the team were subjected with this deluge of racist abuse
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: on social media. And I know FIFA has like run
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: all these kind of anti-racism campaigns, but you see critics
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: say like, it's really just marketing.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: It's not substance.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Do you think there's more that FIFA and international football
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior?
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: I think they.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Genuinely do try. to be honest, and they will be supportive.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: I can speak for the Premier League. I think they
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: do a lot of good in this area. And it's
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: not just performative stuff. They do some really important things.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: I think, unfortunately, and as we see a lot in
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: the world nowadays, there will always be isolated attacks on people.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: You talked about the Paraguayan senator, I believe, that cast
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: abuse on Kylian Mbappe. And it was outrageously racist. I mean,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: it's I wasn't even trying to hide it. Um, and
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: then he responded and then she responded again, claiming to
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: be the victim. And it was quite absurd. So, um,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: and you talked about the three penalty takers for it. And,
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: you know, that's a load of people on social media,
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: as we all know, but I don't think they were
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: viewed shared by the vast majority, but, um, but there
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: is an issue, not just in, in sport, but in,
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: in every walk of life, um, in terms of racism and,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: And again, I'll go to sometimes the people at the top,
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: the people in our governments. Do they do enough? You know,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: is it a football issue or is it a societal issue?
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: I think it's the latter. And it's, you know, you
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: just need more from your governments. And you need them
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: to set a good example, not a bad example.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're not getting a lot of help from
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: the United States on that front.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: I happen to agree with you. Indeed.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Not sending our best over in the U.S. Pod Save
• 36:41
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• 37:44
  Speaker 2: let's do some fun stuff to end this. So back
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: to the World Cup. France looks unstoppable. Spain has unbelievable talent.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: I got to see them in person against Austria here
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: in L.A. Argentina is messy. Norway has Holland. England is stacked.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: We're recording this Friday before the Spain-Belgium game. But at
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the moment, who do you think is best positioned to
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: win this thing?
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: When is this going out? This will drop Sunday. This
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: will drop Sunday. So I'm going to look a fool there, right?
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Both of us. Yeah, yeah. I predict Morocco is
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: going to win it all, so I'll start it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: I'm just kidding. Well, yeah, good. We do know that result.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: We've already had that one. I can't see Belgium living
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: with Spain. I think Spain would win that relatively comfortably.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: Then I'd go England, Norway. It sounds like England should
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: win easily, but Norway are going to be tough.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Holland, man. He's like a horse out there.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: He's the most Viking-looking guy I've ever seen in my life.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: And he's a great guy. I know Erling really well.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: I've interviewed him a few times. And he's got a
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: lovely sense of humour. Boy, can he play.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: Can he finish?
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, he just scores goals. So if England can
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: stop him, they'll have a good chance. I think England
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: have to be slight favourites. I'm going to go with England.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: I can't not go with England, obviously, as an Englishman myself. But,
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: you know, I just want it to happen in my...
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: I was too young to remember 1966 when England won
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: the World Cup for the only time.
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: So I've suffered so many times.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: I just want us to win it before I die.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Just once, just once, please. But yeah, so I'll go England,
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: and then I think Argentina should beat, I think Switzerland
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: done really well to get to the quarterfinals, but I
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: think their time is probably up, and the little fella's
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: just too good, man.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Messi's just too good.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Everyone in Boston, where I'm from, fell in love with
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: the Scottish fans. You know, they were singing at Fenway Park.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: They were drinking the bars, you know, out of beer.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: Were they that lovable when you were playing against them,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: the Tartan Army?
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: Were they? Fuck.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: They were horrendous. Yeah, but they don't like us very much.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think they've probably got good reason, but
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: with history. But no, they were tough to play against.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: But it's... The weird thing is, as English, we actually
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fan stuff. And
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: we genuinely wanted, we genuinely want them to do well.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: The opposite is true for them. They desperately want us
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: to lose every single time we play. So, but their
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: fans were amazing. Their fans, I think they won the
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: World Cup, the Fan World Cup, didn't they, I think.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: But then, you know, but then you get the Japanese and,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: The Mexicans were incredible. I mean, all the English fans
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City with Mexico's fans,
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: and they all were a little bit nervous. But every
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: single one of them has come away saying how amazing
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: it was, how wonderful the Mexican fans were, how they
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: treated the English fans, how they all hugged together on
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: And Mexico played so well with a great heart. And
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: that for me is... the most beautiful thing about this competition.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: It really was.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: There was an amazing image, I thought. I think it
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: was a bunch of fans from Colombia, I think, when
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: they played DR Congo. And there was one guy from
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys, holding
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: up his phone, singing his national anthem by himself.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: And everyone respectfully kept quiet. Then they all jumped and
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: hugged him after. And it was just, you know, this
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: beautiful moment.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: Some of those things. I mean, it could teach us
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: all a lesson. Can football save the world? Yeah.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Hey, I think you're working on it over there, Goldhanger.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: You played your whole career without getting a single yellow
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: or a red card.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: How is that possible? I never tackled anyone. Stayed away
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: from all that.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: No defense.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: No.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when I played, they didn't dish out yellow cards
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: quite as theatrically and quite as frequently as they do now.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: So there was a degree of that.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: But having said that, I'm not sure there's anyone else
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: done it, but It was madry.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I haven't got a temper. I haven't, I don't really
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: have a temper. So I was never going to, you know,
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: lambast a referee. I could whinge a little bit, but
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: I just, I didn't call them any terrible names. And I, yeah,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: I wasn't overly physical as a player. And I got
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: kicked a lot. But the thing is, you know, can
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: that make, that can make you angry sometimes. But the
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: truth is the only time it really makes you angry
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: is when it hurts a lot and you're laying on
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: the floor for a minute. And by the time you,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: By the time you've been treated, you're okay again. Your
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: temper's like gone down. Yeah, a variety of reasons, but
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: it is a bit mad. I didn't even think about
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: it until near the end of my career and people
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: started saying, he's never been booked.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: He's never had a yellow card.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: And then I started to think, you know, it was
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: in my mind a little bit on occasions. And I
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: just thought maybe my last ever game, I remember playing
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: my last ever match, I was thinking, Maybe I should
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: just punch your ass.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I was thinking that too. Go out in a blaze
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: of glory. Just beat the shit out of a goalie.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Guys, just do it.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Actually, I wouldn't mess with the goalies. Those guys look
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: like psychos.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: No, no, they're big.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: They're big. Jesus Christ. Yeah, they are mad.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: I was told to ask about the closest you ever
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: came to getting carded. I don't know if there's a
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: story there.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: That was in Spain, funnily enough. He went to his pocket,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: and my offense was laughing at his decision.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: He made a ridiculous decision. I just burst into laughter.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: And he went with the pocket and I said to him,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: you're gonna give me a yellow card for laughing.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: And he put his hand back, and that was it.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: You were just laughing in his face?
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: I was just laughing out loud. Not in his face.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, got it, got it, got it.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: I was just laughing, that absurd decision he'd make.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, that sounds fun.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: I love when the refs get pissy. You know, you
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: can tell when they have a little bit of an ego.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: You played in the infamous, or famous, just famous, Hand
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: of God game against Diego Maradona in the 1986 World Cup.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Can you tell listeners who might be unfamiliar with that
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: game just a bit about what happened in Maradona?
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Because it's like, it is... Is it the most famous
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: game in history?
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: I kind of feel like it is. I think it is.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: I think because of a variety of reasons. Four years previously,
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: the two countries were at war with the Falklands or Malvinas,
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: as they call it.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: So that had an effect.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: And then it was built up before of this, that,
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: you know, are Argentina going to revenge England's.
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: War victory, if you like to call it that. So
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: that was a big deal.
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: And they had the Argentinian side, Diego Maradona, who was
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: the greatest footballer I certainly played against. I played with
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: him once as well. He was the best of his time.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: In terms for me, the best players ever have been
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: two Argentinians and a Brazilian Pele, Maradona and now Messi.
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: Messi, for me, beats them all.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: But Maradona was playing this game and it was pretty
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: awful first half for the most famous game in history.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: But the second half kind of heated up a bit.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: The ball lumped into the air and Diego went to
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: head it, but in the end he punched it over
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: our goalkeeper's head. Now, I hate VAR and what it's
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: done to our game, but I could have done with
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: it that day. So he punched it in and there
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: was obviously those, you know, huge ramifications for that. And
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: then just a few minutes later, he scored what I
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: think is the greatest.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: Goal that's ever been scored in a football match. I've
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: seen a couple of similar ones.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: Messi scored one very similar, but you have to take
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: into account this was a quarterfinal of a World Cup
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: in Mexico City in the Azteca with these two huge countries.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: And Diego doing what he did was, it's the one
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: time where I was on a pitch and And somebody
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: did something on the opposite side where I felt I
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: ought to applaud.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: I didn't because that would not have gone down very
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: well at home. And then after that, I scored the
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: goal that no one remembers.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that actually.
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: There you go.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: My proof. I scored with my head.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: And then in the very last seconds of the game,
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left winger,
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: who made a massive difference in the game. Flipped it over,
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: I was coming at the far post, I knew I
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: was going to score, and from somewhere, a lot of
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: good chair, their left back came up, and it hit
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: the back of his head and went out.
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: So that was, yeah.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: Which, you know, I'm almost over it now. It's only
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: 40 years on.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, after all these years, does
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: it still hurt to have lost or is it just
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: cool to have been a part of, like, history?
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: I think it's cool to have been a part of
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: that history.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: That's extraordinary.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: I still would have preferred to have won. Yes, yes.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Folks should go on YouTube and check out the really
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: beautiful tribute you did to Maradona when he passed away.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: It's worth watching. Would you ever run for office?
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: No.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: That's the easiest question you've asked. Nope.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Fuck that.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: I'm interested in politics, but have no interest in being
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: a politician.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: What about, what's his name? Benny McBinface? Count Binface? That
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: guy keeps running?
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: Count Binface. Yeah, I know Count Binface.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Do we like his platform?
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: I like his head.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: For those who don't know, there's a guy who wears,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: he's kind of dressed like Star Wars and wears a
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: trash can on his head and he runs in every
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: special election.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he runs every way. Every kind of by-election that
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: he'll turn up. But normally there's a load of other
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: politicians as well, but It does appear that in this
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: by-election in Clacton, which has been completely manufactured by Nigel
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: Farage to try and distract from his murky goings-on and
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: his grifting. But it doesn't look like any of the
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: other parties in our country are going to put up
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: a politician to run against him. So it might be
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: that Farage runs against Count Binface, and if Count Binface wins,
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: that will be the greatest day in political history.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: The greatest upset. Let's make it happen.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: Let's make it happen.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, if Count Binface beats Nigel Farage, I
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: will laugh so hard. It would be so much better
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: than Liz Crust and the lettuce or anything else that
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: has happened.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: It would be even better.
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: It would be even better.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: It would be wonderful.
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: It would be extraordinary.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Final question for you.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: So my buddy, Roger Bennett, encouraged me to be an
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Everton fan a couple years ago. I have to say,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: it hasn't been the most fun winning experience. Uh, but
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I watched the world cup and I see that, uh,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: you know, the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Pickford playing lights out. You see former Everton players like
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Lukaku scoring for Belgium.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: What, what, what does, what does Everton do? And what
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: do we need to do to get them back on track?
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I played for Everton way back. Um, yeah, I
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: died one year there. It was amazing. My best season, um,
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: scored a hell of a lot of goals, best team
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: I played for in the mid eighties.
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: They were brilliant, such a strong side. Um, They've been
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: through the mill a little bit and things haven't quite
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: happened for a long time. They've picked up a bit
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: of late, but yeah. It's a great football club though.
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: And that's what supporting, I'm sure it's the same in
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: American sports.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: The suffering makes, the awful times make the good times
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: better as long as you do get some good times
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: at some point.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: I got to tell you, as a Red Sox fan,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: we were like the lovable losers for years and years
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: and years. It feels sort of akin to how England
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: feels about winning a World Cup. And then we started
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: winning everything. And there's a bit of you that misses
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: the hurt and misses the underdog. And now everyone just
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: hates us, you know?
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: Well, that's what happens when you get successful. So what
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: do you want?
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: You want to be successful, win trophies, have loads of joy?
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: Or do you want everyone to hate you?
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Ah it's really it's a tough call i think the
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: former uh last.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: I agree yeah i agree wholeheartedly.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Uh last last question is playing in barcelona playing in
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: spain the most fun thing in the world that seems
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: so cool.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: Playing for barcelona is amazing i mean i was there
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: for three years um it's it's a monstrously big football
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: club um it's a bit of a madhouse um but
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: it's so special um And especially when you play those
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: games against Real Madrid, because we call them the Clasicos.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like nothing you can imagine. The first
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: one I ever played in, I scored a hat-trick, scored
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: three goals in the game. And we won 3-2. And
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: there were 120,000 people in the stadium. And every single
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: one of them was a Barcelona fan.
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: There was no away fans.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: There were no, because we'd, I don't know whether you
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: get that in the American sports, whether you get many fans.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: That travel to watch their team play. I don't know.
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: But in England, we do. We're a small country.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: It's quite easy to get around to the away grounds.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: But this was like, honestly, I had scored two goals
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: in the first five minutes. I had goosebumps all over
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: me with the noise and it.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: Was so special. And those games are so big, but.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my three years there were probably the highlight of
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: my career.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: I bet you didn't pay for your own tapas very
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: often when you went out. That must have been a
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: happy fan base watching that.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: They were very sweet. They were very sweet, the Barca.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: And the weird thing is they were so respectful. They
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: wouldn't bother you too much. They'd see you and they'd not,
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: but they wouldn't.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know. That's probably changed now.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the camera phone changed that. Everyone's like, click, click, click. Listen, Gary,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: I've taken up enough of your time. Thank you so
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: much for doing the show. Everyone should check out The
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Rest is Football, everything Goal Hanger is doing. You guys
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: make amazing shows, just a hit machine over there. So
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: thank you for your time. Check out the show on
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Netflix also, by the way, and enjoy the rest of
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: World Cup.
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: Thank you for the plug, and thank you for having me.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: Enjoyed it.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Truly my pleasure. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: and Farrah Safari, with Reed Cherlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hethcote, Charlotte Landis, David Tolles,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: America East.