Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Matt Anderson: Values Fatigue, Storytelling & the Courage to Leave

Transcript

Matt Anderson: Values Fatigue, Storytelling & the Courage to Leave · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm Paige Williams. This series explores a question at the center of how we become who we are. How malleable are the stories we live by? And what does it take to change one? Across 100 conversations, I'm speaking with thinkers, creators, leaders, researchers, healers, peoples whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together, we're examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity and the human capacities that allow us to see, to question, and transform. These conversations are helping shape the emerging field of narrative intelligence in the foundational book that I'm writing about it. This is One Hundred Stories. Today I am speaking with Matt Anderson, Imagination Factory co-founder and CEO. His work explores how to create a more vibrant and connected innovation ecosystem in child welfare. I invited Matt to be a part of 100 Stories because he is a disruptor in the child welfare system from way back. He is also a storyteller, and a hundred years ago. Matt and I made a film together called From Place to Place about kids aging out of the child welfare system. And so I'm excited to pick up with Matt several, several years later and talk about how Story changed his life as well as the lives of others. And so welcome Matt. Matt Anderson: Yeah, thank you. It's almost twenty years later, Paige. No, but it's getting there. It's Paige Williams: It's good to have you. Is it 20? I thought it was 100. Yeah. Yeah. well let's just dive in and then we're gonna get to all the good stuff. So tell me about the work and experiences that have most shaped how you see yourself in the world. Matt Anderson: There are a few different ways that I could go with this question. but I think I think because you and I are having this conversation, and it is incredibly formative for me, like the place that I'll go is the origin story of From Place to Place. because that has that story shaped the rest of of my life till now in like very significant ways. And it's it's changed how I see myself and see the world the origin story is that I was living in Missoula, Montana, working with kids who are about to age out of foster care. So on their eighteenth birthday, they were going to walk out into the world alone and essentially disconnected from their family and from other loving, caring, supportive adults. And my job was to prepare them for that transition. as I learned about the experience of a kid, some of these kids spent 10 years in foster care prior to coming into my program. They'd been in 15, 20, 30 different foster care placements over that time. And then they were going to turn 18 and we were all going to walk away and leave them to their own devices. and as I learned that That story of how the child welfare system works, it put me at an immediate crossroads in my life and in my career. Because I couldn't believe that that's the way that we treated these kids. And I couldn't believe that we were going to set them up for this kind of failure for when they transitioned out of foster care. And I couldn't imagine being part of that, I couldn't imagine s working in a system that that's what we did to these kids. And so I was, immediately at this crossroads of either I pivot and go find another job in another field, another sector, and leave the foster care child welfare system behind. Or I have to make some contribution. Like I have to find my role of how do I make this this system better in some way so that we're not continuing to perpetuate failure for these kids. So I was literally sitting at that crossroads of what do I do? And then Cody, who was one of the kids in the program that I was working with, we were, you know sp you know, working together that day and working on his goals of making sure he was ready to age out of foster care. And he just, you know, stopped me and said, You probably don't even know my story, do you? And I said I I don't, you know, which sort of I was embarrassed of like, I don't even really know where this kid is coming from. And so he literally sat me down on his couch in his apartment and told me his story of growing up in foster care and went through all of the details and took about an hour. and at the end of it he said a few things that changed my life. He said that my life is important, my story matters, people need to know what happened to me. And we should make a movie about it. And that moment you know, it struck me that well maybe this is the opportunity for me to stay in this system and try to make a contribution, try to make an impact. the story carries on from there, of course, but in that first conversation with Cody, we said, let's make a movie about your life and your story and and why that matters and we'll call it from place to place. And all of that happened, you know, and three years later we released that film. but there's so much in in that origin story that has shaped me and my work, how I see myself, how I see my work. but that's kinda where it started. Paige Williams: I'm so struck by I I I've lived that story with you. We met Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: because of Cody essentially because he said, Let me tell you about my story. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: And it changed your life. And then Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: as a result, our a mutual friend introduced us. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: And then we made the movie and it changed my life. Cody's story changed your life, it changed my life. And then talk about the impact of the film and how this telling of the stories and we can bring in Mandy and Rafe changed many things and many lives by simply telling their story. I mean, I've heard this story and lived this story so many times in the last 18 years. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: But through the lens of narrative intelligence. Perhaps Cody is even the godfather of narrative intelligence in my life. Because it Matt Anderson: Yeah, interesting. Paige Williams: shows how looking at a story can transform. Matt Anderson: so Cody had this idea and he had an idea for what what he wanted to do, the story that he wanted to tell. Cody and I went to your house and and pitched you on this idea Telling his story of growing up in foster care and and what the experience of aging out meant to him and how he was scared essentially. He didn't know what was gonna happen to him next. And he wanted to re-narrate this this experience in this story. And it's so interesting because you know, we we pitched you on the idea, and you're like, Yeah, this is interesting. I would I would work with you guys on that. And let's we can make a seven-minute film, for whatever amount of money. Paige Williams: Yeah. Matt Anderson: and so we went and raised the money and started working on the film. That was in 2008 to make a five minute film. Well we filmed for two and a half years and made a eighty minute film. we ended up following Mandy, Rafe, and Micah for two and a half years post-foster care after they aged out to see like, you know, the story of what actually happens. Like, yeah, we were starting to know some of the data around the experience of kids who age out of foster care and how they suffer really, really poor outcomes as a result of that experience. The data was starting to emerge, but we put the story to it with that film. you start with a seed of an idea and you start having conversations with the right people, and you let the story kind of unfold as it as it needs to. You know, we never got locked into we have to make a seven-minute film about this. Paige Williams: Right. Matt Anderson: Like the, you know, more and more young people, it was just Cody, but then there were six young people that said, I want to participate in this in this project. The more we talked about it, the more interest. And they all said the same thing about why they wanted to participate in this film. And it's it was simple. Nobody they said nobody ever asked me what it was like to grow up in foster care. Nobody ever asked me what this experience meant to me. I never had a voice in any of this. And I have something to say about it. And I want my story to impact those coming behind me. You know, I'm my time is up, I'm aged out, but this next generation behind me, I want to do something to help them. one of the questions I remember we asked was, well, if if these are kids in foster care who quote unquote don't have parents who would be their parent? And it would be the government and the federal government specifically, so let's go to DC. So we spent time filming in DC, we spent time filming in other places. But really, you know, yes, let's follow life post-foster care. but let's see what happens when these young people have a voice in Congress. May Rafe and Mandy went and spoke and met with with high-ranking members who had jurisdiction over child welfare policy and child welfare financing. this was really the first time that those leaders had ever really heard the voice of young people and heard the demands of young people of what they wanted. And they really listened. and it was powerful. And it did lead to ultimately. Federal policy change. It led to the Family First Prevention Act. It was a major landmark piece of legislation. We're still seeing the implementation of that. It has its its real shortcomings. But it was a really important piece of legislation. and yeah, I mean I don't think that that legislation would have come to be if it weren't for members of Congress taking time to listen to the stories of of young people. And I think it's all it's all embedded in these stories, like all the lessons learned. Are embedded in these stories. Paige Williams: the film really talks about the transformation in Mandy and Rafe that happened as a result of being able to tell their story and and be heard. But for you, will you speak to the transformation that happened for you and telling your story about the loneliness of being a child welfare worker with kids aging out and then what happened as a result of telling the story and then moving forward in your life? Matt Anderson: the story of me as as social worker, I I think when I reflect back on it, I I do think about what I said earlier on here being at that crossroads immediately in my career, You know, is kind of how I reflect back on on my experience. And then obviously 20 years later, here I am. I'm still in the child welfare sector. So obviously I made the decision to stay and try to create real change. But it's interesting because the child welfare sector is notorious for having extremely high turnover rates. And it's not just turnover from job to job, it's also turnover from I'm getting the heck out of this sector and I'm gonna go work somewhere else because I don't wanna be part of this. You know, the the moral injury that That you feel as the social worker is really heavy, but you're feeling that because whether you're admitted or not, you're a perpetrator of harm against the people you're supposed to serve. The system is doing so much harm by disrupting and separating these families and exposing kids to trauma and leaving parents this like gaping hole and loss and grief of their kids being taken away from them. That's so harmful to people. and yeah, whether you admit it or not. us as social workers were the perpetrator of that harm. So you know there are some public agencies, government agencies that can see 60 to 100% turnover in one year. And that's usually around 18 to 24 months of somebody working in the job. I made a choice where I was gonna be committed to be in this work. To try to make the system better for most of my career. And today that's not the vision, that's not the North Star. It's not about making this system better, because this system can never be what families need. This, like reforming the child welfare system will never be a pathway to justice for families. We can only make it marginally better or nicer or faster at doing what it does. the vision now is how do we create alternatives so this system becomes obsolete? And goes away. How do we actually meet the needs that families really have? I got to that place in my career because I learned at the very beginning of it that Cody was my teacher, these young people I was working with, they I whatever I needed to know about the system, I needed to know from them. I've carried that lesson throughout my life and throughout my career. and, you know, have have not always been as focused on that as I probably needed to be, but you know, I've come back to that truth, you know, or that instinct or that way of practicing. that's embedded in that story with Cody is that, you know, Cody's my teacher. Paige Williams: probably the biggest activist revolutionist I know living, who I'm friends with. Whose stories are you learning from right now? Because I know that you're always in relationship to story and who's experiencing it. Matt Anderson: Brian Stevenson with the Equal Justice Initiative has always been one of them. Greg Boyle with Homeboy Industries has always been somebody that I've I've looked to and learned from. Shronda Selivanoff. in Washington. but but and she represents this, but people that that really come from a place of of curiosity and a place of humility and then a place of courage. those three ingredients as somebody that's trying to lead transformative change and be a disruptor. are really, really important. You know, we need we need to be very curious about ourselves, about our work, about this the the context in which we work. We need to be learners. Like we need to be curious about a lot of different things. and being humble too, I guess, is right in there of like, you know, we have to have a certain humility that we don't have the answers. We're not the experts. We do need to be asking a lot of questions. We do need to be learning from other people and questioning ourselves. but that kind of mix of like curiosity and humility is kind of like don't be so attached to your ego. and don't be so attached to the identities that you think are important to hold on to. You know, there's a there's a lot of letting go that's part of who I am and how I work these days. it's gotta be balance too with some conviction and some courage and like the willingness to act. even from a place of curiosity and humility and uncertainty, like that can't that can't lead to complacency or neutrality. Like you still have to have some courage and you still have to act. you still have to be trying to to make a an impact all the time. people that embody that are really interesting to me and I think are are the kind of model leaders that I want to learn from, but I think we probably need that in society right now too. There's a lot of entrenched ideologies that want to fight each other. And I think the antidote is a little curiosity and humility. Paige Williams: if we think of narrative or narrative intelligence as a vehicle to change, like we can no longer live within the story that I was living in, and then I have a moment of transformation and I see the truth and I have to move forward and let the story grow with me, then what a good formula for how to do that humility, courage, and curiosity. What identities did you have to shed to keep doing the work and keep growing to become the advocate and activist you are today? Matt Anderson: I'd come to a point in in my career for a very long time that, you know, as a as a social worker, you know, by training, I'm like, okay, so I'm a a macro level social worker. I'm a systems change focused social worker. My job is to to lead systems reform efforts, you know, at the local or state or or national level, you know. and that was part of that was part of my identity, I suppose, but that was just part of how I understood like what my job was and what my practice approach as a social worker was. Systems change, you know, structural changes to policies and practices and financing. And I had to let that go for a couple of reasons because like I said before, we can't reform the child welfare system to to to achieve justice for families. systems are a reflection of us as individuals. And so our systems are a reflection of our more deeply held beliefs and values, our mindsets, individually for sure, but then obviously collectively too. And so if we want to see structures within our systems that are fair and equitable and actually serving people's needs, well then you gotta start with the people, the individuals. You know, I had to start with myself. You know, so I had to shed a lot of those identities that I was carrying as a professional in this in this sector to say, okay. you know, what are my values, what are my beliefs, and are those actually reflected in my work and in the results of my work and who's being served in my work? I came to a a realization that my work and the impact of my work was not a reflection of my beliefs and my values. that's the big one that I had to to shed is like who am I as a professional and and what's my job? And what's the the lever of change? You know, is the lever lever of change structures or is it is it deeply held beliefs, you know? Paige Williams: Can we talk about that moment in your life when you left your big job because you could no longer abide because it was so out of alignment? you'd even gone and raised money to transform, to create change, and then you realized even that wasn't enough until finally you just like literally laid down all the armor and walked away Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: without a plan. what kind of discomfort did you have to get in to become willing to leave a big job, not have a plan, and Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: move forward anyway? Like talk about what re what that transformation required for you to actually Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: create the change in your life. Matt Anderson: the way that I've described it is that it was it was a weight and it was a tension, and it was what I came to call values fatigue. So I was being exhausted by the weight or the tension between my values and my and my work. And the disconnect there, the misalignment between those two things that I didn't realize was there for the longest time. I think I was probably feeling that tension and feeling that weight for quite a while, probably a few years at least. But I wasn't able to to see it. You know, I wasn't able to name it and really understand it until I was. And when I was, then it it happened all happened pretty fast. So like, okay, I need to I need to do something very different. part of my job was to run a very large foster care and adoption program. And what I came to see and came to understand and believe is that foster care is is harmful, inherent to what it is, it does harm to people. it does harm to the people who I say I serve. and I am benefiting from that harm and I'm contributing to that harm. My paycheck comes from that harm. and so how can I not see myself then as as the perpetrator and the beneficiary of the experiences that these families are having that are caught up in the child welfare system? And If I see that to be true, then I can't be right with myself. I can't be in right relationship with myself. because I'm not in right relationship with the people I serve. there are many things that led to that. you know, but but when I saw it, then all of that like the that values fatigue became very clear. It's like, that that's what I'm dealing with, this disconnect between I want to be in service of people, but I'm actually perpetrating harm on these people And so then that like that was the weight, that was the tension. and I don't want to I don't want to do that anymore, obviously, but like I didn't even want to try to validate it of like, yeah, but on the other side of the house we're also doing all of this work to Prevent family separation and to support families and to try to change things and systems reform. And so I could have tried to justify one side of the house, you know, with the other side of the house, or one side of my job with the other side of my job. And I had been balancing that for a long time, and I didn't know that that's what was like that that tension between the two is what was pulling me apart. And so when I realized that Yeah, it was very quick, you know. that was that was a Sunday afternoon and Monday morning. I wrote in my journal that I've made the decision to leave my job. Paige Williams: As you walked through the hallway of transition out of that job, moved, changed trajectories, talk about the experience of writing a new story and a new narrative for yourself and where you're at now. Matt Anderson: I left the job without a plan, but I left it with an intention. the original intention was I'm giving myself the freedom to be in pursuit of who I truly am. And so with that intention, then I was like, that's pretty vague, in terms of a career move. but it allowed me to like really get to know myself. and you know reconnect with you know different dimensions of myself. So I did like practical things, or at least more practical things, like mapping out the different dimensions of who I am. defining them, you know, giving giving them a name and sort of a definition and like a self-assessment. Am I am I really like living this part of myself? am I fully embracing that? And, you know, so I did some things like like that that were really helpful, you know, like really like a deeper sense of self-awareness around who I am. and that, you know, that started to give shape too to then like, okay, That's me, That's the whole of me. What's the vocational part of me? What's the job career part of me? So then I gave gave an intention to that, that that the work that I would do would be focused on investing in the well-being of parents to keep families together. then that gave shape to decisions that I would make about like, am I gonna take a a different job or am I gonna start my own thing? Or like if I start my own thing, what would that be? You know, so then I started Proximity Design Studio with that essentially as like the mission statement. The projects I had to take on had to be about investing in the well-being of parents to keep families together. And if if an opportunity came that wasn't that, then it didn't fit and it it wouldn't be work that I would do. And so that gave me a lot of shape. being in that space still of like in pursuit of who I truly am, I was very curious during that time. I was, talking to a lot of people. I was very public in my story of why I left that job and what I was trying to accomplish. I started writing on LinkedIn a lot about you know my values fatigue and about my decision to leave and my intentions and my practices and like just very open about it all. And it was fascinating because my my you know DMs exploded on LinkedIn. And I would literally have at least once, maybe two or three times a week, I would have Zoom calls with people all over the country of like, I get what you're going through, I feel it too, I don't know what to do, where are my people? How do where do I get some help? Like how do I like what do I you know, just people in that feeling of like this work doesn't align with who I am and what I believe and I think I am perpetrating harm and you know I'm looking I want I don't want to what do I do and so I learned a lot over a six to twelve month period of having those conversations about people's stories and what they were looking for and what they needed. And that along with just an an inspiration around Imagination Factory as a place to turn dreams into reality was like the initial idea. how can we create a space where people's ideas can become real? that can be good for families. I had that idea and then like hearing from people about what they were looking for and it resonated with me because that's what I was looking for too. And Imagination Factory just became like a scratch your own itch kind of b kind of business that we co-founded. it led to to you know kind of this this new intention around driving innovation in our sector that's focused on preventing family separation and eliminating systemic harm. Paige Williams: the work you're doing is fascinating and it's a model for many different innovation ecosystems. And what is your website so people can go check it out? Matt Anderson: the website is IMGN factory dot org. So the letters IMGN. Yeah. Paige Williams: Okay, and we'll put it in the show notes. So for the purpose of this podcast, What I'm most focused on and continue to be curious about is what got you to the place to be able to do this work, to be a change maker, to go after a huge moonshot. So your grandfather may be one of the great the greatest influence of your life. we had the great privilege of or I had the great privilege of meeting him and getting to go to Haiti and experience his Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: generosity of planting trees. So what did you learn from your grandfather? What was the most important learning from his life that you take with you? Matt Anderson: curiosity, humility, and courage. Paige Williams: you learned that from him. Matt Anderson: taking action. Yeah. Somebody introduced him to to Haiti and hospitals in Haiti which he didn't know anything about, but he was curious and he was like, well what else should I know about Haiti? it's it's deforested. And that's a massive problem on on every level of human experience. It creates problems. And I love trees and I know a lot about that and I know a lot about forestry and timber industry. what if we reforested Haiti? So that's a bold, courageous, you know, big idea to take on based on his curiosity at the age of 80. You know? but he did, and and and he made it happen, made the project happen. but he had so much humility that it wasn't like it wasn't it wasn't work for him to do, and he didn't know the right ways to to take on that kind of a mission. But this this this ability to just be humble of like, well who are the experts? And the experts are the the farmers that are working the land in Haiti and they have land, they know how to farm the land, they know they know everything that that is needed to be known. They just don't have access to resources to be able to reforest the land. his well I can help with that part, it was amazing to watch him do that. And like the the the people that he brought together and the teams that were built and the I mean, it's just it's you know, it's a whole story in unto itself. I mean spending time with him in Haiti for five or six years before he passed, you know, working on that project. Makes me cry, but like Just like some of the best I mean you were there, so you know. I mean, some of the best days of my life. For Paige Williams: Sweetest. Matt Anderson: sure. Yeah. I mean Paige Williams: Sweetest days of my life too. Matt Anderson: Yeah. And like it holds so much meaning, So they're these small communities. but hundreds of communities are now part of this project. Thousands of farmers have gone through the program. And I think it's four million trees have been planted over the years. there's food crops. Like it's an agro forestry, so it's agriculture and forestry. it's really you know changed changed people's lives. It's changed the landscape, the environment. Like there are many forests growing now. You know, species are coming back to these areas that have been gone for you know hundreds of years, maybe. this idea, what if we reforested Haiti? The impact that has happened from that simple question, it it is amazing. And he gets a lot of credit for asking the question and organizing the action at the beginning. But, you know, thousands of people now have have made that work happen and made that reality possible. but I I would say like again, like these the the lessons embedded in these stories. are you know, like when you when you can find them it's just like they're these nuggets, but like the power of asking a simple, compelling question, i it's like it changes the world. Paige Williams: Okay, let's talk about that. of asking a simple, compelling question changes the world? What are the properties that that question has to have in order to change the world? Matt Anderson: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. What do you what do you think? let's think about that. Paige Williams: The question is asking has to reveal a problem. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: It has to assume solution. Matt Anderson: Yep. Yeah, that's I think that's the key to it. Like the question has to tell you the problem and the solution within the question and asked in a way that like it's it's the it's the what if. What if we did this? what if frame of a question is the invitation in. So it's got to invite it has to be an invitation. Paige Williams: Hmm. It's an invitation. Mm. Yeah. Matt Anderson: To see a problem and to like be inspired by a solution. But it has to be simple. Paige Williams: And when we have a bigot Matt Anderson: Go ahead. Paige Williams: Be simple, has to be understood. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: It's compelling. I'd Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: also say it has properties of stopping people in their track. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: Because they're going down this one path, right? but but what I've seen in your life is the question has to be so big that you get a lot of pushback because there Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: is so much system and power and money behind the way things have always been. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: And when you say child welfare system can't be fixed, there's Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: it stops the flow of money and people get really upset about losing money, for example. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: And so that question evokes fear almost, perhaps. Matt Anderson: I think it does. And I think it's like it can evoke it can evoke fear or like it's that's too big to be actually solved. So, you know, people can can write it off for that reason. but it also has to be kind of like sticky enough That even for those who kind of write it off, they can't really forget that the question Paige Williams: Yeah. Matt Anderson: exists now. So like one that we're working on is what if termination of parental rights no longer existed? And so the problem and solution is is a little bit more vague in that. Where like it's in it's inherently in there, but you kind of have to think about it for a second, like, why wouldn't we want that to exist? if we didn't want it to exist, well, there must be something wrong with it. Is there something wrong with it? if I think about it, there are some things that are wrong with terminating parents' legal constitutional rights to their children. Like, there is something wrong with that. What if it didn't exist? Well, if it didn't exist, all these other things would be in question. And if it didn't exist, we'd have to do something different. What would we do? Like, so it immediately says, sends people to all those kinds of places either to like, I'm excited about this 'cause like wow like that like or you know, they get entrenched because they're scared. Paige Williams: Just so our our audience knows most kids are removed because of issues of racism I mean harm is Matt Anderson: And and addiction too, you know. I mean I think that's and and to to terminate a parent's rights because they're suffering from a a disease of addiction. And they they're they've lost their legal constitutional rights to their children, their child's birth certificate has changed, their name is changed, you know, they have no legal access or right anymore. Like it's as as if they didn't exist Paige Williams: Yeah. Matt Anderson: because they're suffering from the disease of addiction. Paige Williams: Right. Matt Anderson: And so now they're in recovery and now they're living a sober life. Well, you don't you okay, you still don't have rights to your children. Yeah, exactly. Paige Williams: Reminds me of your teacher Shranra. Yeah. Yeah. One of your greatest teachers. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: And her telling her story has changed people's minds about that. Matt Anderson: for sure. Yeah. Paige Williams: So going back to like we have to ask the question that can create a revolution. I was wrestling with this issue of narrative intelligence and why do we want to increase our narrative intelligence the way we might want to increase our emotional intelligence, right? Well, I it came down to me to if we increase our narrative intelligence and we ask a big question and we can no longer go forward without changing our story or changing our narrative or changing our identity. The reason we go through that transformation and change, as painful as it may be, or revelatory as it may be, is for more love and more freedom. Matt Anderson: Hm. Yep. Totally. Paige Williams: Where where am I limiting in that thought? Like what else, why else might we want to change our story, change the trajectory of our lives? Matt Anderson: it's a deeper relationship with with ourselves. I think it's a deeper relationship with ourselves to the point of we spend a lot of time working, right? It's most of our lives really, when you take sleep out of the equation. So if if we're building that deeper relationship with ourselves, then kind of the goal of that is then, well, can our work just be an expression of of who we are? rather than a job that we just go and like we do the the work and get the paycheck, you know, that might be fully disconnected from like who we really are and what we really believe and what we're really good at and what we really love and how we really want to be in service of other people. Like, you know, our work should be a reflection of our selves how can your work be a reflection of your soul and so I think understanding our narrative intelligence understanding our own stories building the muscle like I want to build the muscle of understanding my story I want to build the muscle of self awareness so that I can work in a way that's more of an expression of who I am. And so it becomes a becomes a skill almost. the true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you never expect to sit. Paige Williams: creating together, whether it was from place to place or films in Haiti or working on. Another project in North Carolina or Imagination Factory changed my understanding of the power of story both Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: within myself and then as an external force and in my own work. And you and I Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: kind of both went through this existential change with work about the same time where I went from a Matt Anderson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: tech CEO founder who was really struggling Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: into what I'm doing now, and you transitioned out of an executive within a very large child welfare nonprofit to Imagination Factory. In the hallway period between that shift of I can no longer continue this path because it is not aligned with my values into where we are now. Matt Anderson: Uh-huh. Paige Williams: I mean, Matt Anderson: Yep. Paige Williams: you are a founding member, I would say, of the way I understand narrative intelligence because we had those experiences together and now we just Matt Anderson: Yeah, it's cool. Totally. Paige Williams: get to reflect on what does it actually mean to change our lives and to change lives Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: through narrative intelligence, through storytelling, through understanding our identities. Matt Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yep. Paige Williams: So let me ask you this. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: Based on your experience of storytelling and creating and changing and shifting and transforming how would you define narrative intelligence? Matt Anderson: it's pointing us to the truth that who we are today is shaped by the stories of our lives in a way that we don't talk about a lot. that's not something you learn in school. Maybe in college if you you know, take philosophy or something, you don't learn that in any kind of like formal education really. And then when you're in the cr in the professional world and you're taking all these personality assessments and like IQ t like all that kind of stuff, like leadership development type stuff, team building. Like it's never like narrative intelligence is never part like that's just not part of it, right? what we do in school and in work neglects our story, essentially, we don't know, we don't realize that our lives are shaped by our stories. And our future is going to be based on our the stories that we're telling ourselves today. And so so that's one thing that I think about. And then what we were just talking about, about like the practice and the skill of deepening our self-awareness. Like if narrative intelligence tells us that our lives are shaped by our stories, and who we are is shaped by our stories, then like the skill to apply from that, I think, becomes like deepening self-awareness. And really building the skill of understanding ourselves in a way that can then be applied. our work and our lives become an expression of who we are and what we know about ourselves. I think that's probably like how I think about it. as you know, just having these conversations with you and learning alongside of you. The the other thing, has been bouncing around in my head as we're talking, so I'll say it here because I think it connects to to what I'm saying, to your question. a lesson that I've learned over the last handful of years is that our lives change one sentence at a time. There are sentences that we speak or other people speak that if we really pay attention to what that sentence is inviting us into, it can change our entire lives. Cody saying, Matt, do you even know my story? that sentence changed my life. Right. And and but it didn't have to. Right? Like I could have been like, yeah, Cody, I do, yeah like you told me last time. Let's honestly. Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've read your case file. I've read your case file. Matt Anderson: Yeah. these sentences are dropped into our lives. And a a woman that I worked with for a while in in my hallway phase, Brendolyn, she would always say that when your future comes knocking, answer the door. So Cody's sentence was the future knocking. And you know, I think we can all probably think back to like lots of sentences that were the future that was the future knocking. And I think our ability to like see the sentence as the future knocking and then do something about it is narrative intelligence. Paige Williams: And if that's true. really come to believe that the only thing that limits me from everything is myself. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Paige Williams: So if you wanna change the world, you change yourself. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: And you do that one sentence at a time is what you just said. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah, you can do that one sentence at a time. Or you can find opportunities one sentence at a time. That might be a different way to think about it. But yeah, yeah. Paige Williams: Wow. Matt Anderson: I mean everything is is possible for us. Narrative intelligence is our our ability to like know that and understand that and see ourselves and see these moments in our story. You know. Paige Williams: So this wild, audacious dream that me speaking and you speaking these a hundred stories creates the field of narrative intelligence as we're talking about it. Because sometimes there's a little bit Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: about AI and narrative intelligence, and there's a little bit of this, but I created the first assessment to measure it. And I want to build the field of narrative intelligence as we're talking about it. to understand that we're living in a story. And and change the narrative. What do you think might happen if my audacious dream that everyone understands what narrative intelligence is for humanity? what do you think is possible if people understand that they're all living within a story that they can change? Matt Anderson: it changes everything. It changes everything. So I'll I'll say it this way, because I know we've talked about Eckhart Tole before and and a new earth. basically what he's saying in a new earth is that there's this truth that we don't all all see yet, that we're constantly awakening to a new consciousness. and I think that's what you're saying, that would be an awakening to a new consciousness where we understand that we are not our ego-based identities. And that, yes, we have an ego identity, and that's part of us, but there's another part of us too that is the truth of who we are, that is our soul. perhaps narrative intelligence is another way of thinking about how we awaken that consciousness, how we connect to our soul and connect to who we truly are. And when we recognize that there's the ego and there's the soul, and we can start to separate those out, then we can start to make very different choices about our lives and we have a deeper understanding of of who we are. And then Part of that I do think it it's a recognition of like what's possible. Paige Williams: Yeah, it's like limitless possibility once you understand. So narrative language. Yeah. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you start to let go. Paige Williams: And so narrative intelligence, like that framework just gives us I love how you just position that. It just gives us new language to understand what Eckert's talking about. Or what Jesus is talking about when he says Matt Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paige Williams: the kingdom of God is within you, or what Buddha's talking about is that suffering is my own root problem. I create suffering in my life, not these. Matt Anderson: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Paige Williams: Outside external forces, the only limit is me. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: It also makes me curious why. Because Narrative intelligence has to be more than just storytelling, right? Like story is a huge part of narrative intelligence, but it's also what we've learned and the narratives that have been passed down in our culture and our identity. And I wonder if you would have had so much courage, humility, creativity, and curiosity, and generosity if you hadn't seen that exemplified in your grandfather, for example. Matt Anderson: I don't think I would have Paige Williams: you inherited narrative intelligence through their narrative intelligence. You inherited the narrative intelligence of your family. I inherited the narrative intelligence of my Matt Anderson: Yes. Yeah. Paige Williams: family, good or bad. And we have the power to change Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: it. Matt Anderson: Yeah. Paige Williams: It's an imprint. Matt Anderson: it's an imprint and it's probably in our DNA, but it's also just in our our lived experience of what's passed down to us. our stories do shape us, you know. Having addiction in in my family shapes me. And has impacted me. And I also have choices to make about how I understand that experience and that impact. And Paige Williams: Same. Matt Anderson: what does it tell me about me and my relationship to my family, but also in my in my work too. so I've been able to make choices of I understand the disease, I understand how I was impacted I'm not a victim of it, I guess is one way to say it. I don't hold grudges and I don't have anger or animosity, for experiences that I had. But that's not everybody's experience of that kind of a story. a lot of people hold on to the narrative of this is what happened to me, this is what these people did to me, this is how I was wronged, this is how I wasn't loved, and we hold on to that identity. We hold on to the narrative. that creates an identity. And I have a narrative and I have an identity. And I hope it's working pretty well for me. But I had to choose which narrative and which identity was going to be created o out of that narrative. Just because that's our experience and that's our narrative doesn't mean that it's predictive or definitive. we can change the the narrative. Paige Williams: you have an MSW and you've helped people change you help people change their narrative. Whether Matt Anderson: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: it's clients you're working with, whether it's children affected by the system, parents, social workers, like that understanding has helped you transform lives. And and it's such an interesting thing that the narrative because you've experienced it, you're an experiential teacher yourself. Matt, this has been such a great conversation. I appreciate all your time and your continued co creation with me in love. And I just love you so much. Thank you for the impact you've Matt Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love you too. Paige Williams: had in my life. Matt Anderson: Likewise. Yeah, it's a gift. Paige Williams: Before we close, here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Matt reminded me that a story can interrupt the direction of a life. Cody's question, do you even know my story? became an invitation Matt chose to answer. And that choice changed his work, my work, and the lives of many people who came after that question. I'm also taking his ideas that our lives can change one sentence at a time. The sentence may come from another person, from a moment of misalignment, or from a question we can no longer ignore. Narrative intelligence may be our ability to recognize that sentence as the future knocking, and then decide whether we are willing to open the door. Matt's story also shows that changing a narrative requires more than insight. It requires curiosity, humility, and courage. Curiosity to question the story we are living, humility to release identities that no longer fit or serve us, and the courage to act before the new path is fully clear. These are emerging insights, not conclusions. But I am leaving this conversation thinking that when our work no longer reflects who we are, changing the story may be the first step toward bringing our lives back into alignment. Thank you to Matt, and thank you for joining us today.