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14: Reforming ”Nice Guys” w/ Ashley Cox · Harder Than Life

• 0:15
  All right. This lady is awesome. I seriously have no words on how to describe Ashley Cox. As my life always works out, someone messaged me asking me if I knew her and would I recommend her Nice Guy Reform School. As I always do for everyone, I researched her and provided a resounding heck yes. And you should listen to her because she is also brilliant.
• 0:34
  The person asking didn't ever end up going to her class, but I gained a friend and knew immediately I had to have her on the podcast. This lady has a master's degree in teaching and was a teacher for six years. Of course, it's not all rosy. She had an abusive stepfather and a breakup with a nice guy is what led her to start Nice Guy Reform School.
• 0:54
  So before we get started, click on the show notes below and follow Nice Guy Reform School on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. Also follow Ashley J. Cox on Facebook and do a deep dive into her genius. Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the bold, the brilliant, and the beautiful badass Ashley Cox. Thank you, Kelly. It's great to be here.
• 1:17
  Actually, I'm so excited to share this with my listeners because this is just fire. You told me you meditated for six hours per day after a breakup from said nice guy. It came up with the idea of nice guy reform school. Tell the audience more about how it came about and what it is and who your target clients are.
• 1:39
  So I had a breakup with a nice guy, as you said, he was amazing. He checked all the boxes in the same way that a lot of people try to check the boxes. So he made good money. He was tall, like all of the boxes. He was a sweetheart. And he'd actually had a crush on me for, at that time, 15 years since we were in middle school. And he was my friend when we were little. And then when we got older, we gave it a try.
• 2:08
  And it was a, I would say a solid try for about four or five years. And I had trauma, unresolved trauma, and he had his own things going on that were much more covert that I talk a lot about now.
• 2:26
  And the combination of the two just made it to where it didn't work. And I see this problem all the time. It's it's essentially an epidemic in the post feminist era where men aren't allowed to have a spine anymore because it's we've made it bad. Right. And so men are kind of caught between a rock and a hard place. And my programs provide a solution for that. Wow.
• 2:54
  I'm going to go through, I'm going to deep dive into that even more because I just, in my crusade of reform, I'd say, trying to just better my life, I get...
• 3:09
  for sharing my emotions. And it is, you stick them out there and they get knocked down. But I don't care. They didn't, being the bad boy, so to speak, would attract a whole different element. I just didn't want to have to deal with it. And then truthfully, one question I didn't ask and we'll talk about this is just being a little, being okay, being alone too. And I'm cool with that. So you once gave 150 grand to an alcoholic ex-Marine boyfriend.
• 3:38
  I don't want to pry and it's okay if you don't want to talk about it. But would you mind sharing the details of that? Because every little detail counts. Yeah, we're jumping in quick, aren't we? So when I was in my early twenties, I fell in love with this. I thought I was in love with really, I was just sort of a lust sort of high, but I fell in love with this guy who, um,
• 4:04
  was a Marine, a former Marine, and his job was to find IEDs. And he saw some things overseas that he couldn't recover from, and he became an alcoholic. And I wouldn't even say a functional alcoholic. I would just say a full-fledged alcoholic, couldn't hold down a job. At one point, he didn't have a car. And at that time, I just started my teaching career.
• 4:26
  And so I was doing really well on the outside. I had graduated with my master's degree when I was 22. I was winning awards as a as a new teacher, county awards and things like that, and then
• 4:39
  Behind the scenes, I was actually, I had late nights. I was working several jobs just to help this guy. And I thought that because he was my soulmate, if I could just help him, then he would realize it, realize he was my soulmate. And then he would love me and he would marry me and all these things. And this comes from, I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. It comes from a disorganized attachment and a long line of attachment style and a long line of trauma.
• 5:07
  in my childhood that was not dealt with and it presented itself in my relationships. It's what I see every day now where I have clients who are 79 figure entrepreneurs who are fully functional on the outside, maybe not as high performing as they could be if they didn't have this personal life mess, but they are still, I mean, for all intents and purposes, very high functioning, amazing men who go home and have experience.
• 5:35
  Just a terrible time, right? Their wife is yelling at them. They try to do everything. They pay for everything. One guy said, I take out the trash and she still doesn't respect me, that sort of thing. They just don't get it. And so what I found is that EQ has nothing to do with IQ in my own life and in my work now.
• 5:55
  Oh, I love that you went EQ. That's emotionally intelligence for everybody. And I've read a ton about that. That is responding instead of reacting and healthy boundaries and communicating properly what you really want, which is not anybody's strong suit.
• 6:16
  And, um, it, it, you know, if, if you communicate your feelings, you're, you're feminine as a man and it's, it's not cool, but we're going to get into that. It sounds like nice guy reform school was born from your frustrations with men, desiring a higher value man, so to speak. What are your thoughts on that? You know, it was all subconscious, Kelly.
• 6:41
  Don't use the mind strength. This is for the audience, not for me. I know what you mean, though. Man, yeah, I didn't do it on purpose. So going back to the meditation, it really was divinely inspired. I was meditating for about six hours a day for three weeks, and it was a walking meditation. So I wasn't sitting in a room still, but it was a walking meditation where I would, you know, feel the wind on my skin. I would
• 7:08
  take the sense and, and, um, sort of look at the trees and the leaves and the colors and just talk to God for weeks at a time, uh, or for these three weeks. And during those conversations, what I heard was that the patriarchy has hurt men just as much as it's hurt women. And that's when I started it and it took off literally overnight and unexplainable ways, miraculous ways that I still can't figure out.
• 7:36
  But then when I thought about it, I know it made sense, right?
• 7:40
  When it comes to my own life, it made sense that I was the person sort of chosen to talk about these things, at least one person who's chosen to talk about these things. Because as a little girl, I had a very, very abusive stepfather who was a dangerous man and probably would have killed us had he not died. And I had a nice guy father. The caveat here I want to say is that obviously I forgive all of these people. And my father and my mother were 15 and 16 when they had me. And so they were very young dealing with this older man who was in his 40s.
• 8:10
  And so, but I didn't get that as a child, right? That's just my dad and then my stepdad and my mom, I didn't understand where they were at developmentally. And so the way that I grew up in my sort of perspective as a child is I have this abusive stepdad who is very scary. And I tried to run away many times. I have vivid memories of very violent things happening in my household.
• 8:36
  And then I had this nice guy dad who was afraid of conflict, who, again, checked all the boxes. He had blonde hair, blue eyes. He was an engineer from UVA. Just an awesome guy, but super afraid of conflict. And I really needed saving. And what he ended up doing was he had a bit of a savior complex and kind of saved all of his other girlfriends, you know, his little girlfriends that didn't really love him or respect him. And he had a daughter, his only daughter, that really needed his help.
• 9:07
  It's a good thing I wasn't your dad. Maybe I would have died sooner. Sorry. I'm not afraid of conflict, if you can't tell. I read a ton. I read a ton. And, in fact, I just finished Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart. And it talks of a lot of sharing feelings, especially for men. I am way into my feminine, and I'm adept at communications, even though society hasn't deemed it safe. Is that what you were teaching, or...
• 9:36
  Is it more dealing with your unhealed childhood trauma? Because I've done that too. And both are equally hard. So can we dive into that a little deeper? Cause you, you went into that, um, the feelings and then, you know, you, we talked about attachment and, you know, Brene talks about attachment is the near enemy of love. Do you know what all that, have you read her book? I haven't, but I like to say that, um, emotional attachment is not the same thing as true connection.
• 10:04
  Yes. She deep dives into it and talks about how it's not love. Actually, a near enemy is actually it feels like it's the exact same thing, but it's actually sabotaging it. So if you are emotionally attached to somebody and you call that passion, it's not good. So I'm going to go back to my question because there's so many –
• 10:24
  good things in Brene Brown's book. She's brilliant when it comes to emotions. I highly recommend. I've read all of her books. I was in a terrible toxic relationship and I needed to understand shame and guilt because this woman experienced so much shame but would continue to feed into the shame and do shameful things. I just had to understand it. I
• 10:48
  I just this self-justification of not knowing that you're enough is just tough for females. I think that's probably like that for men, too. But you're the expert. So tell me, is it are we healing childhood traumas or are we teaching them how to communicate or both? Both.
• 11:10
  Yeah, that's the million dollar question. It's like, what do you actually do with these people? What's really going on? And it can be very confusing because we're forging a path that hasn't been forged before. We're talking about things that are- There is no- Sorry. There's no pathway for men. There's no pathway for men right now.
• 11:33
  We have the patriarchal sort of paradigm that we are kind of attempting to move out of. And then we've got this again, this post-feminist era and no one really knows, okay, where do men fall in this space that we're in right now? Like what is their role? What is their purpose? And we're answering that question.
• 12:00
  We are and together, honestly. So these guys, they will come to me one on one or in a group. And typically it's because they either can't get a date or the woman that they want, doesn't want them, or they were in a relationship that was very toxic. And so wherever they're at, it's an urgent sense of I'm lonely and I'm not getting what I want. There's a Delta between where I'm at now and what I want.
• 12:29
  And I don't see a path forward. I don't know how to fix this. And so we have a lot to talk about there when it comes to, first of all, like you said, their beliefs about themselves. Most men feel like they're not good enough. They're told they're not good enough from a very young age by parents, by society, by women. Yeah.
• 12:47
  And there's, you know, again, these boxes that they have to check in and they sort of make mental notes like, do I measure up? Right. That's the big question. And in addition to that belief that they have about themselves that they're not enough, they're sharing a nervous system with their mother. And so there's this aspect of having to essentially cut the cord with their mother. And I'm happy to go more into what that would entail and what that means.
• 13:13
  And then thirdly, they need to be initiated into their masculinity and into their manhood. And it has to include that EQ portion. So what does it look like as a man to be emotionally intelligent without being viewed as weak? Like what's the nuance there and how do they accomplish that? Yeah, I got to ask you about the cut in the cord with the mothers because that's going to be one that everyone's going to.
• 13:38
  I would have fought you if somebody said that I was still attached to my mother. And I was going out and dating my mother because I was trying to heal those childhood wounds and the fact that she just never paid attention to me. So I would go get emotionally unavailable women.
• 13:59
  And Sean would love, maybe it's quote unquote, you're a nice guy, but I was not a nice guy. I'll admit that. So that's how I came about this harder than life podcast. I didn't like the women and the output that was coming from all my input. And I changed all the input and now everything's great.
• 14:19
  I'm still single. I love it. I'm good being alone. I don't mind it at all. It's I find that, you know, when you're ready, they will appear. So I'm not I don't put any, any, any thing on it. And I just keep doing me. But talk about the cutting the cord from your mother.
• 14:41
  Yeah. So everything you said is true about basically finding partners that remind us of our mother's nervous system, specifically men. It's all subconscious. So if you're listening to this and you go either, well, I had a perfect childhood and yet I attract toxic women, which I see a lot. I'm going to talk about that here in just a second. Love it. Love it. And then.
• 15:06
  I see it all the time. I see it all the time. You know, these guys, they come in and they say, what are you talking about, Ashley? Like my childhood is perfect. My dad, you know, I just sort of read the newspaper and you know, our needs were met, it was all good. And my mom, you know, she was a little anxious, but you know, everything was perfect. Perfect, perfect, perfect. But like, that's the word I hear over and over again. I'm like, that's the problem, sir. Like, let's talk about that because what it was actually happening was there was a focus on appearances
• 15:35
  and not real connection. And the mom was super anxious and dad was either passive or very abusive. And the mom's nervous system was shot. So there was a lack of masculine leadership, true masculine leadership. So the patriarchy and the fifties dynamic, I would argue that, you know, there was some positives to that, but it also wasn't holistic or wholesome. Like it wasn't the full picture, the full spectrum of masculinity. And so these women were walking around with unmet needs, um,
• 16:03
  feeling like they needed to keep up with the Joneses, feeling like everything needed to be perfect. And that essentially translated to her keeping her son in a proverbial box. Perhaps she had her own childhood trauma with men. And so she sort of took that out on her son and needed him to be a quote unquote good boy. But regardless, her nervous system was not regulated.
• 16:25
  She was anxious, maybe OCD, maybe perfectionistic, needed her son to be a good boy. And as any good son would do, he wants to please his mommy, he wants his mom to be happy. And so what does he do? He follows the rules and does what she says. So what ends up happening is,
• 16:42
  He never actually, because the dad's not showing up, he never actually gets initiated into his masculinity. He never actually fails forward, falls down, gets back up, brushes himself off. The idea is that you want the mom to be a mother, but not to be mothering. And so because these mothers were over-mothering their sons, they weren't letting their sons find out who they were and what they were made of and to come into their manhood.
• 17:10
  because they were keeping them in a small box. You know, you can't go climb that tree. You can't do this. You can't do that. And instead, what we want to see moving forward is mothers who are a safe place to land. Once the boy goes out and finds what he's, you know, what he's made of and then finds out what he's made of. And then he fails and he comes home and mom can give him a big hug. That would be an example of being a mother instead of mothering.
• 17:37
  Wow. That is, that is, there's a lot there to unpack. Are you finding that,
• 17:44
  if you had to put a percentage on where the, the, I don't want to say fault, but where the, the, the problem lies, is it more of the men or the women? I mean, cause I'll find that if it, let's just say that everybody in the world goes through your nice guy reform school and everybody's healed, all the men, how many capable women are out there? Meaning that they've gone through and healed themselves. Cause there's a lot of, of, of childhood trauma, uh, whatever, whatever it be from them. Um,
• 18:09
  that they don't think they're good enough, that they'll sabotage the relationship. And I think I found every single woman that will do that and dated them. But now I just, that's why I choose not to get involved right now, because it's, there's just as, and as you heal, I don't know if your graduates see this, but as you heal, the dating pool becomes smaller and smaller. So talk to me about that.
• 18:35
  So for my graduates, they tend to have women come out of nowhere. That's the universe. I like that. And want to be with them. Yeah. Yeah. Guys that, you know, it was crickets before and now women are coming out of the woodwork and they get very confused and they send me lots of messages like, what is going on?
• 18:55
  And so is it men or women? I mean, it's obviously both. We're all responsible for ourselves. When it comes to women's work, I think that the same thing is happening in women's movements, similar to men, where we're starting to see women.
• 19:13
  women wake up and go, you know, we don't want to be this hyper independent archetype. We don't want to have all these autoimmune disorders and be constantly stressed out and be really hard on ourselves and basically be zombies.
• 19:29
  Like this isn't any fun. And that's because we actually don't have the testosterone to operate the way that men operate. And so women really do need to find a new way to be happy and be healthy. And that's not to say they can't have jobs. It's just how you do it and how you operate while you're doing those things. And so, and the things that are going through your head and your body and whether or not you're attached to the outcome and versus like,
• 19:53
  so the masculine would be i'm going to get this thing done come hell or high water this thing is happening the feminine is a little more think of a woman having a baby like you're with the thing you're with it no matter how long it takes and you kind of have you're at the mercy of of the project you're at the mercy of whatever is unfolding and you are basically a steward of it you're not the one that's quote unquote making it happen by a deadline for example you have to be a little more flexible the feminine is more flexible it's more creative it's more intuitive it's more
• 20:23
  It's more patient. And so what we need to do is tap into as women, I think, and I'm not an expert on this, but from what I've understood just in my own studies is like this idea of being flexible and being appreciative and relaxing and surrendering and trusting the process and not trying to control everything. So here's what ends up happening. Obviously, my men cannot control whether or not these women are healed and they cannot control the behavior of these women.
• 20:53
  And so I don't teach them to, um, manipulate women. I don't teach them to do any of that. What I teach them to do is to step into their power. And that looks different for everyone to step into the highest version of themselves, to operate as that man every day, to have his disciplines dialed in, to have his purpose dialed in, uh, to be honest, to be authentic, to have boundaries. And what that does is it either repels or attracts women.
• 21:20
  it gives women something to respond to, which every woman craves. It's why she loves bad boys because it gives her lots of drama to respond to. So if he's not showing up and he's a nice guy and he's essentially energetically like flaccid and emotionally flaccid, and he's just sort of playing small, then it doesn't give her anything to respond to. It's not interesting. But if he's showing up, then he's giving her something to respond to. And then she has a choice. She has a choice. So when she's talking to this man,
• 21:48
  She can either say to herself, hmm, that's the kind of man I can trust and respect, and I'm gonna pair bond with this guy, or I'm gonna be interested in this guy, I'm gonna move forward with this guy, or because she can't control him, and because she can't manipulate him, if that's her agenda, he will repel her. She may get triggered, she may try and try and try, it's not gonna work, and then she'll leave. Which is good, by the way, too. It's, you know, what's not for you needs to get away, and that's,
• 22:17
  That's the whole trauma bond cycle of toxicity that I think that you're doing a fabulous job of breaking. I heard a definition, it is simple of masculinity being is just doing and feminine is just being. So simple, easy. I don't claim to know any of this stuff. I'm going to deviate from my questions because something just came up.
• 22:40
  You grew up with lots of trauma. What did you do to ultimately, I don't think we're ever fully healed, but we're healing. And so what were some of the routines and habits and what did you do to heal that trauma to be able to not have daddy daughter issues, the proverbial daddy daughter issues? Yeah. Yeah. My process was so messy and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Juicy, do tell.
• 23:13
  You know, it was a long process. That's what people are hiring me for is to shorten that process for them. There's, I can't do it for them. And there's a certain amount of time that it's certainly going to take, but, uh, not as long as it took me, I didn't have the resources that people have now.
• 23:29
  It wasn't available. It wasn't widespread, or at least I didn't have access to it. I didn't know that it existed. And so it really started with me, first of all, waking up out of my unconscious slumber where I was paying all this money for this guy. And I finally hit a wall where I just couldn't do it anymore. And I started asking questions.
• 23:54
  Being aware. It's so funny. It's every single podcast that I do, when we talk about overcoming adversity, it just start, no matter what it is, starts with being aware, self-awareness and understanding what's going on and being honest with yourself. So that's where I'm just trying to set it and you can keep going. Yeah. Yeah. And it take responsibility, right. To go, you know what? I feel like a victim right now and
• 24:23
  I feel like the world's against me right now, but if I'm being really honest with myself, I have to look at my role in this because that's the only thing I can control and trying to control everyone and everything else by being perfect just isn't working for me. It's not working. Like the outcomes I want it to get
• 24:43
  There's not working. And I see that all the time with the guys that come in. They go, I did all of these things and nothing's working. And they feel like a victim. And that's sort of classic codependency where you hit a wall and you make a decision and you go, okay.
• 24:59
  This ain't working. There's got to be another way. And it's a really, really rough process to get your mind around the fact that you created it. You are responsible for what you allowed in your life. You were the one that woke up and chose to do the things whatever they were. So as to get a certain outcome, you were the one who was attached to that outcome. You were the one that had those expectations. And you got frustrated because you felt entitled.
• 25:28
  That was the single hardest thing for me to come to realization about. So I have to do things backwards. So my therapist that I work with years ago said, if you have strong feelings for somebody, run. Because that's your subconscious telling you that that's your mother. That's going to be a bad bond. He literally, run. And he was dead on.
• 25:48
  Because I would go and I would justify, oh, no, she's like, because they'd show me one thing when we first started dating. It's who they wanted to be. And then the true them came out after it got serious. And I'm like, oh, good Lord. So now I have like a checklist of things that I go through. Like, okay, are you self-aware? Do you self-justify? Are you a victim? Do you drink more than two alcoholic beverages at a sitting? I know that sounds a stupid thing.
• 26:13
  But if they're regularly getting buzz, there's some childhood, there's some demons that they're, that they're, and I'm, I am so disciplined in everything I do that I will bring out any demon. It'll come out, just comes out quick for me. So that's just a hard no for me. So keep going.
• 26:35
  Oh, no, I totally agree. I think that when you experience that high, and then you'll do anything to keep that person around, even when they show you otherwise, and they show you their, their true colors, you know that you are in a trauma bond, or you're attached to an outcome, and you're not actually present and responding properly to the stimulus in front of you.
• 26:56
  You're so glad I met you. I hope that the guy that introduced us, he keeps messaging me. I hope he uses you. He just said it was expensive, but it's worth it. There's a value here, guys. I'm telling you right now, I spend more money on coaches and therapy and training than a lot of people make, but it pays itself back. Ashley's program works incredibly
• 27:23
  And you'll get your money worth because you won't be blowing it on endless dates and endless women and dead end women. So I believe in everything she does. I've been through it all and she is brilliant. But I want to take it a step further and deeper. I said, besides nice guy reform school, what daily routines and habits do you recommend these men do to live the life of their dreams?
• 27:50
  So it really depends on where they're at right now. So right now, if they have no morning routine, no exercise routine, they're not worried about their diet, they're not drinking water, et cetera. And they're just sort of going through life the way that we're told to go through life, which doesn't work, by the way, FYI. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. What are we told? What are we told?
• 28:11
  I missed that memo because I'm going to tell you right now what you just said. I'm sorry to talk over what you just said. I get vilified for. Oh, my God. I meditate. I work out every day. I drink water. I journal. I believe that those things are paramount in everybody's life. Why would I not? Why would I not want to build my body? I'm not saying that you have to have a six pack. I'm not saying you have to be ripped.
• 28:36
  But you need a regular workout practice. You need to eat well because if you look good, you'll do good. So why is that? I think that we're told to just be a rat. And then even if you win, you'll be... My daughter is 14 years old. That's the way these kids look now, so they're doing really well. What do you mean? What do you mean by looking?
• 29:07
  how you do anything is how you do everything. How you look is how you present yourself. How would I want to look like a rat? No, no.
• 29:16
  I mean, in society, if you're just going through the motions and you're not actually thinking about these things that we're talking about, you know, what that looks like is you're a rat in the rat race. And even if you win the rat, yeah, even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat at the end of the day. People are miserable. People who aren't actually taking control of their life. They are miserable. They're checking out. They want constant dopamine hits. They want constant distractions.
• 29:42
  because they're not actually taking the time to do what you're saying, which is to really go within, to create that structure in their morning, to be mindful. And when you do those things, it literally heals your brain. Like it literally creates gray matter in your brain, which increases neuroflexibility. And it allows you to be responsive to life instead of reactive. I would say the vast majority of people out there
• 30:08
  are not doing this. They're just doing what they're told. And what they're told by the media or by the government or by whomever is, you have to really consider it's not in their best interests. It's in the best interests of whoever told them to wake up and go work for someone else for 80, 90, 100 hours a week, maybe get paid enough to pay their bills,
• 30:29
  Or go to war, potentially die, come home, don't cry about it, don't get resources for yourself, and the ones we have for you are not great, like, good luck, right? So if we just go through the motions of what we think is available, what we're told to do, we don't actually stop and go, hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 30:48
  Like, what do I want? Who do I want to be? How do I want to operate? How do I want to feel? And I'm going to do whatever that is and whatever it takes to accomplish that instead of, um, even if it makes me look weird, like what you said, even if people judge me, like I am. Tell me about that. I don't know what that looks like. You listening, you listening, Grant, this is for you, buddy. Good stuff. Just for me.
• 31:14
  We got a nice guy on the other side of the – he's such a good guy, man. I love him dearly. Yeah, yeah. I think it's great to be a good guy and to have a big heart and all those things. We just have to make sure that we protect those guys. We need them. Keep in mind, everything that you're saying is –
• 31:33
  It fits for every part of your life. And for every sex. I want people to understand this. I am no way, shape, or form. But everything I read, all the research I've seen, is this applies for women. This applies in your business. This applies in your personal. It applies everywhere. So that's why I wanted to have you on.
• 31:53
  I'm just, you're a remarkable woman, and I'm so glad that you meditated and this came to you. But I wanna clear something up. I just wanna make sure, is your school in lieu of therapy in your recommendation? Are you a therapy proponent? And if so, which modality? And I ask you that because I've done them all. I'm currently in hypnotherapy, which I've done before, I just do it quickly, and I'm in EMDR, just because I'm always trying to advance my being.
• 32:22
  And my childhood was so bad that there's still always going to have to be some maintenance being done. So what are you a proponent of therapy and which one and then is your do they need therapy after this or do you recommend it?
• 32:39
  Yeah, I love therapy. I think it's good. I think all men should be in therapy potentially, or actually all people should be in therapy. Um, it can't hurt, right? Like that's, it's not, this isn't a replacement. So there are a couple of fundamental differences. Um.
• 32:57
  One is that in therapy, it's very process oriented and it takes as long as it takes. They don't exactly have a dialectical discussion with you. So it's not this deep dive that's a back and forth between the two of you. It's more like you're creating or entering a space where you can just say whatever you want to say and decompress and have it be witnessed and have it be validated in a safe space, which is very healing to experience, especially if you didn't have that as a child.
• 33:27
  That being said, coaching is more results based and it's more skills based and it's more discussion based. So it is a back and forth. I'm actually teaching skills around women, around masculinity, around communication, conflict, all these things that you may not get in therapy. So it's not a replacement.
• 33:50
  Uh, it's supplemental it's enhancement. Uh, this is probably gonna be a little controversial, but I think it's really powerful because what I hear from clients who have been in therapy for many, many years is that they tend to get more done with me because it's so. Results based and because we're looking for, you know, what's the problem, how do we solve it? Here's some action items. And then there's accountability in there.
• 34:17
  And so they've gone to the same therapist for a long time talking about their problems over and over and over again without ever actually knowing how to solve those problems. Well, I'm living proof of that. I tell you, I went to therapy for probably nine years and he'd tell me the same thing over and over. It just didn't help. And it sounds to me like your program is very focused on the results, which is what you want. I will tell the boys that are out there, the listening, the faithful Ashley followers, that if they do want a little bit of a...
• 34:46
  quicker remedy, I highly recommend the hypnotherapy and then the EMDR because it gets right to it. So if they really want to understand the underlyings of the subconscious, because the whole hypnotherapy things talks to your subconscious and it works, man. But you got to put in the work. I did a one particular session where we did a big Kelly talk to little Kelly in the room with mom and dad.
• 35:13
  And that kind of released a lot of things for me. And it was just an abuse thing that I just couldn't unlock it with regular psychotherapy. And that unlocked it like that. And it made the huge breakthrough for me. So if you're going to try something, research in your town. And it actually doesn't even need to be in your town. I did mine over Zoom during the pandemic. Yeah.
• 35:34
  But I'm one of those insane guys that I have got to make progress. I've got to move forward. So everything I do, I do with massive scorched earthness, if you will. I go hammering into it. So I love hearing that. I highly recommend the program. I wish I would have known about it five years ago. It didn't exist, but it would have helped me and I would have done it for sure. Sure.
• 35:58
  how how much different are women than men we've talked I keep interrupting you and saying that I think they're the same but you're the expert how much different are women than men and why not teach women as well so the running joke is that I don't teach women because I would make them cry and I'm I'm not quite there yet in my development and I get producers are laughing too
• 36:25
  I like to work with men because they know exactly what, well, they might, they might not know how to solve the problem. They know what the problem is. They want to solve it. They want the skills, they want the resources and they go execute and come back and say, Hey, I did the thing. What next? That makes me happy.
• 36:41
  super easy, super simple. Women, on the other hand, just work a little differently. And I'm- You're admitting women are complicated. I love it. Finally, a woman admits that she's complicated. Thank you, Ashley. Appreciate it.
• 36:57
  Yeah, I'm not quite there yet. What I've found that works for me is as a woman is, you know, I need, I want my practitioner, my coach to be very feminine. And what she does is she holds a super feminine nurturing space for me and I just go cry. And that's great for me.
• 37:19
  I can solve the problems. I can be in my head. I am, if I'm an expert in anything, it's that. I've had to do that since I was little. So I could survive.
• 37:29
  Right. And so I'm really great at solving problems and being in my head. But what's good practice for me as a woman is to go to a coach, a therapist, etc., who's very, very feminine, very dropped in, is not attached to my outcomes, is not judging me and just lets me go and emote and be in my heart and be in my body and feel what it feels like to be safe in that and to be held in that.
• 37:58
  And that is, that is a very, very high level skill that I am still working on myself. And so I don't know if I'm prepared to provide that level of healing for women. And I do think that's what it takes for women to heal is to get out of their head. Oh, that was so many gems. You said so many good things in there. I had, I'm sorry. When did you see me look away? I'm taking notes. I got, I got to move this over here so I can see this.
• 38:26
  I'm going to give your list, your fans or your people, your students, what you just said, because it's paramount. Men, create a safe space for your woman. Don't solve her problems. Try to be empathetic and sit in her crying with her.
• 38:46
  with no judging and no pity. Hardest fricking thing for a man to do. We are problem solvers. So again, sit with your woman and don't try to solve her problems and create a safe zone. And what I'm really saying is be vulnerable, be in your feminine and let it all happen. And you'll create a bond with her that was out of this world. Am I wrong? Well he's, and is masculine, but he's comfortable with his feminine and hers.
• 39:15
  Thank you for that correction. You are absolutely right. Great stuff here. All right, a couple more questions. We're going to deviate a little bit from this. This has all been about this. Define happiness for me. That's interesting. You didn't think it would be easy, did you?
• 39:37
  Um, well, I think happiness is actually like a chemical thing that happens in us, right? It's, it's a high and I am not searching for happiness ever in my life because I think it's temporary. What are you searching for? Fulfillment. I want to often, I think of how am I going to feel in my deathbed? When I look back at what, is that a Tony Robbins thing?
• 40:02
  Yeah, it's the gap between who you want to be and who you end up being is the regret. And you got to close that gap by the time you die. And that is fulfillment, alignment. And, you know, you don't want to be that person in the end of your life thing. And I wish I would have done this. I wish I would have done that. Not done it. So.
• 40:24
  I seek joy and fulfillment. I like joy. I like experiences. Define success for me. It's different for everyone. In my world, it looks like
• 40:42
  breaking, not just breaking all of my family cycles and, you know, trauma and overcoming my trauma, but creating a version of myself despite that, or maybe even because of that, that I'm really proud of. And so...
• 41:00
  What that looks like is, and again, it's been messy, you know, that journey for me, it looked like being a kid who came into the world with very few resources and very little support. Again, my parents were 15, 16 years old, very small town, classic.
• 41:18
  different sides of the tracks story. So my dad's side of the family was relatively well off for a small town and didn't want me here at all. Um, and they were very vocal about that. My mom was, her family was poor. Again, they lived in a, I don't know if I said this earlier, but they lived in section eight housing and my grandmother was working three jobs to support three children and her 15 year old got pregnant.
• 41:45
  And so we have a family history of trauma. I'll add that. Severe trauma. I will protect my family's privacy, but I'll say things that like fathers,
• 42:00
  you know, sexually assaulting their daughters, like things that just shouldn't happen in any family. Murder, I mean, crazy stuff, extreme stuff within the family, like family members murdering each other. And people very, very dysregulated.
• 42:17
  And so here comes me. And I kind of, I feel like I came into this world with a bit of an x-ray machine, being able to see through all of this trauma and read all of these people and kind of a bit of an old soul and definitely here for a reason. I came into the world the day after my uncle died from lymphoma when he was 21. So on September 4th.
• 42:40
  He passed away from lymphoma, September 5th. I was born and literally against all odds, I guess you could say, like it just maybe not against all odds, but in a very unsupported situation. So shortly after, when I was six, we moved in with my stepfather, who I talked about earlier, and then he passed away when I was eight. And then my mom became very, very, very, very abusive because obviously, I mean, from a young age, she had a bunch of trauma, then she had a child, then she...
• 43:09
  had an abusive husband, then she became a widow. So obviously she was not well, she didn't have therapy. She didn't do EMDR. Like she didn't, she didn't have a morning routine. Like she didn't do any of these things. And you know what, maybe she had a personality disorder. Maybe it was just the trauma, who knows, but I was taking care of myself, of her and my, of my sister doing the house, you know, household things, cooking, cleaning, all those, all those things. And then also
• 43:35
  I loved school because it was my safe place. It was the only place where I didn't have to, I didn't have to like do everything that I was also, my teachers were taking care of me. Right. And so it was also very clear for me. I knew what I was going to get in trouble for. And that was comforting to me. Again, it's similar to the masculine. It's like, she just wants predictability. And so she can feel safe. So as a kid, I liked school because it was predictable. Whereas my home life wasn't, I never knew what was going to get, what I was going to get in trouble for. And yeah.
• 44:02
  So that's why I ended up taking care of that guy. When I got older, it was like, well, my value and my worth is and what I could do for people. I tried to save my mom, I tried to save my sister. And I thought that's who I was, right? That's how I how I thought I would receive love or the only I thought I'd receive love. So moving forward and seeing
• 44:21
  you know, my own trauma, my own toxicity, my own like issues. Um, when I hit this wall with this guy, I started this journey of like, well, how do I, how do I create my, I've always been kind of like creating myself, but how do I really not just survive and not just try not to be like my mom or try not to be like my family, but how do I really create someone that I'm proud of it's, it's different than just being the opposite of them.
• 44:49
  And so if I can figure out who that person is by the time I die, I think that that will be both fulfilling. And I would say that that would be successful for me. Your self-awareness is amazing. Can I share your age? Yes. At 32, you are amazingly far along. I am. I couldn't be more proud of you. I you just described my childhood. Yeah.
• 45:14
  But the only time I was safe and predictable was school. So everything you just did, and it took a lot of work to get out of that scaredness, if you will. So I'm proud of you. You've done it way before me. It took to like 40 for me to do it. So I wasted a lot of time. I didn't know any better. So I had a lot of grace for that young man and old man or whatever we want to call myself.
• 45:38
  Thank you for sharing all that. I got a question. How did your mother and father meet then if they were from different sides of the tracks?
• 45:47
  Well, it was a small town. They just, there's this pervert, there's this, there's a saying of like, you're from opposite sides of the tracks, meaning, um, maybe, maybe it's just a Virginia thing, you know, or it's like, no, it's not, it's not, there is a rich side and a poor side to where I grew up too. So I get it. I just didn't realize it literally was just the other side of town. So I, I, that makes sense. When you were down, what can you think of that makes you smile? Probably my dog. What do you have?
• 46:15
  She, her name's Basil. She's 25, 50% Aussie, 25% retriever, 25% chow. And then I also take some time to think about what I'm grateful for. Like there are people out there that don't have running water and electricity, like really getting down to the nitty gritty. I'm thinking about the people in my life that I love so much. And my sister, my nephews, my sister has also broken so many cycles and my nephews are adorable. So that makes me happy.
• 46:41
  That's awesome. That's a great story. What's the best and worst piece of advice you've ever received? The worst piece of advice would be off the top of my head, just like suck it up. I knew you were going to say that. Don't cry, you know.
• 47:02
  Because I became hard. I became hard and not in a healthy way, right? Like I became a shell of a human who had all these emotions and I couldn't even feel those emotions in order to heal them. And so it stunted my development. The best piece of it. I just want to chime in there.
• 47:22
  That is the one misnomer that we've all talked. It's hold, you know, don't be vulnerable. Don't let your emotions out because people will use them against you. My producer's waving over there. Yes, yeah, man. Which is the dumbest advice ever because if someone uses your emotions against you, then they're asking to be out of your life. So the people that love you will grab those emotions and support you and sit with empathy in you and love you. And that's how you know that they're for you. So yeah.
• 47:50
  Share them. And even if you can't do it yet, journal them, get them out of your head and onto a piece of paper. At least you won't ruminate on them and then just become, as you said, hard. So the best piece of advice. Yeah, I think there's. Sorry, go ahead. I mean, I think it's it's OK. I think it's worth being gritty and persevering. And that's different from being. You spelled it. You said harder than life.
• 48:18
  Yeah, I think that's different than being like a shell of a human, a zombie, checked out, disassociated, just because you're afraid of your own emotions. Those are two very different things. Grit and perseverance means that you can feel the emotions and you can continue. I did both. Just so you know, hardest. You're just tugging on my heart right there. I hold everything in and then now I let it all out. It's just, oh, the latter is so much better. And it takes more strength, actually. Very courageous. Absolutely.
• 48:49
  And, but once you do it and you strengthen that muscle, it becomes easier and easier and easier. Exactly. Yeah. It's very scary for men to feel those emotions because they judge themselves and they think, well, it means I'm not good enough means I'm weak. And so they push it down, push it down, push it down. So it's actually one of the bravest things they can do. I've had several men tell me they'd rather go to war than talk about their feelings. Ooh. Or feel their feelings. What did I write? I just wrote something. I put it on my things. It was...
• 49:20
  People will rather, the fear of shame is higher than the fear of death. Literally. It was, I think that was from Brene as well. Unbelievable. Yeah. The need to tap out against discomfort in this country is unbelievable. If they just sat in the feelings, they'd pass faster than anything else you do. So I am living proof of that. It only takes 90 seconds. Ooh. Yeah.
• 49:50
  And how long do you think it takes for the scotch to kick in when you take a drink or take a smoke of weed? Rhetorical question. What's the best piece of advice you've been given? Be yourself.
• 50:06
  It's scary. I know it's corny, but it's true. It's actually terrifying. It's actually terrifying. And it takes work to show up and be authentic and be honest and speak your truth. When people reject you, when they abandon you, when they can't handle the truth and they can't handle your truth. So you think you're going to be alone if you do it. And so you never do. And you never
• 50:36
  be genuine and authentic yep there's no and then literally it's none of my business what anybody thinks about me i say that over and over and over again i don't care a lot of times too when they're throwing darts at you it's because they're envious and it's that's that's not because they're mad at you they're just envious they wish they had the courage to do it so keep being yourself that's great great advice if you could create one universal dating or romantic relationship
• 51:09
  Can you explain, what do you mean law? Like universal law, but for love? Yes. What would it be? Oh, so like gravity, like it just is. For everyone to have an open heart and,
• 51:39
  Hmm. I think it's important for men, especially to have a strong spine. So I like the idea of an open heart and a strong spine for men. I think it's really important for women to also have an open heart, a strong spine for women. I have to think about that. I don't know if I would say, I think women should also have a strong spine. They should have boundaries.
• 51:58
  I think women should have an open, I think that's it. I think women should just have an open heart and, um, men should have an open heart and a strong spine so he can go and protect and provide and do all of those things. Um, I wish more women were just in their heart and chill and open and out of their head. Um,
• 52:16
  Again, it's not to say they don't have boundaries, but I think that's different than like a strong spine where you go and you protect and you provide and you do all these things. So, yeah, it's a tricky question. I wasn't really ready for it. Sorry. My uncle made a recommendation. He said, you want to tell people that question? Because I ask it usually. I made yours poignant to love. Yeah.
• 52:37
  Um, mostly it's a, it's a universal law of, of the country or the world. And, and I'm going to tell you what, I, I, I'm going to answer it my way. And it's the same answer I would give to it being a universal law. Cause I, I believe this to be true everywhere. I think everybody needs to tell the truth, not their truth, the truth. I just think the world could, would be an easier, um,
• 52:59
  More maneuverable, more soft, safe place if we knew that everything coming out of everybody's mouth was the truth. Not self-justification, not projection, the truth. I'm scared. I'm nervous. I'm hurting. You hurt my feelings. Things like that.
• 53:17
  Because you could, I can deal with that. I can't decipher. I'm not, I don't, I can read between the lines, but it's just so much easier. You know, and then what are the, you know, proverbial, the opposite true. The truth hurts once, the lie hurts forever.
• 53:33
  So it's just easier. It's an easier, I'd sit down and it's the first thing I do in my IT business when I'm talking to a prospective new customer. It's like, we're going to tell each other the truth. We're going to lay it all on the line. I'm not here to spin you. I'm not here to sell you. I'm here to solve problems. If we have a mutual goal in mind and we're moving forward, let's not play games. Love that. Yeah, just based on that, you know, while you were talking, I'm like, we can just simplify mine. I like what you said, like,
• 54:03
  you know, just tell the truth. I would simplify mine to say, if it had to be one thing, it would just be for everyone to have an open heart. I love that. It's in my house. I got, or in my bathroom, I got, uh, uh, Ram Dass quotes says, love everyone and tell the truth. Well, so it's the combination of both of our stuff, love everyone to tell the truth and tell the truth. Simple. Uh, how can I personally support you?
• 54:29
  Um, well, this has been amazing. So I appreciate that. I would love for everyone to know where they can find me just in case they want support with these topics that we've discussed here today.
• 54:42
  All of her handles will be in the show notes, guys. When is the next starting of the, because you're episode 20, so it's going to air in a couple of months. But if you have another one starting soon, I can move it up. When would you, is there a preference to this airing?
• 55:02
  Well, I think this should come out tomorrow, but my school is ongoing. So it's evergreen and they can join when they're ready.
• 55:12
  I agree with her. Let's move this one up. This is this, every guy needs to hear this. This is fantastic stuff. Ashley, you are, it was, was beyond what I thought it was going to be. You're brilliant and beautiful and doing good things. Keep going. If there's anything I can ever do for you, please never hesitate to ask. You have my cell phone number, reach out anytime. Um,
• 55:36
  And I just want to remind everybody, each and every episode is sponsored by National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with. Delivering peace of mind with technology every day. Until next time, be harder than life. Thank you for listening. Please rate and subscribe to Harder Than Life. And let's take this to the next level. Get connected at the links below.