Latest / Critical Error / Books Are Better Than Video Games*

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Books Are Better Than Video Games* · Critical Error

• 0:00
  Listen, books just are deeper than
• 0:01
  games.
• 0:06
  >> Yeah, but like can you name a book or
• 0:09
  you press A to jump and it's a lot of
• 0:12
  fun?
• 0:15
  >> Come on.
• 0:16
  >> A critical error is an error which the
• 0:18
  OS cannot reasonably ignore.
• 0:20
  Jake Steinberg is a streamer, writer,
• 0:22
  and certified yapper. complimentary
• 0:25
  Peter Hunt spit tech is a YouTuber,
• 0:28
  journalist, and certified yapper
• 0:31
  derogatory. These are the things they
• 0:33
  cannot reasonably ignore. Recently, a
• 0:35
  Reddit post claimed that Disco Allesium
• 0:37
  made somebody stop playing video games
• 0:40
  and start reading books. There was a
• 0:43
  kind of joy that they were not able to
• 0:45
  find in video games outside of
• 0:47
  Discolesium that they found was
• 0:49
  extremely prevalent in books online.
• 0:52
  When people reacted to this post, there
• 0:54
  was a lot of self-consciousness on
• 0:56
  behalf of the gamer. A lot of people
• 0:58
  feeling like, how could you say how
• 1:00
  could you almost represent this medium
• 1:03
  as artistically less than that of books?
• 1:08
  Peter, what do you think is what do you
• 1:09
  think is going on here? Why is this post
• 1:12
  hitting people in a way that is uh
• 1:14
  inspiring such offension?
• 1:17
  >> So, I think there's a few things. I
• 1:19
  think um
• 1:21
  I let me talk about the most obvious one
• 1:23
  first because I think it's the one that
• 1:25
  like we all sort of like jump to when
• 1:27
  when thinking about this sort of
• 1:28
  conversation and it's the idea that like
• 1:32
  I think there is a certain amount of
• 1:34
  self-consciousness
• 1:35
  that comes with being someone who likes
• 1:38
  video games. Um because it is often a
• 1:40
  medium that I I feel like is like looked
• 1:42
  down on as far like I feel like it's
• 1:45
  like seen as like kind of like lowbrow.
• 1:47
  Um,
• 1:48
  and
• 1:51
  that I think is starting to I I kind of
• 1:53
  feel like that's a thing of the past a
• 1:54
  little bit. Not entirely, but it is
• 1:56
  something that is kind of an older view
• 1:58
  of video games. Back when games were a
• 2:00
  little bit more of a niche um hobby,
• 2:03
  whereas like now like everyone plays
• 2:04
  games, right? Like whether they're
• 2:05
  playing something on their phone or or
• 2:07
  like whatever, like everyone plays
• 2:08
  games. Like that's it's it's pretty
• 2:11
  universal. Um, however, I think that
• 2:14
  there is still this anxiety built up
• 2:16
  around people who play a lot of games
• 2:18
  that like other people are sort of like
• 2:20
  looking down on them a little bit. And
• 2:24
  so the idea that like someone played
• 2:26
  Disco Allesium and was like honestly
• 2:28
  this is like a med a different medium
• 2:31
  and I jump shipped and I like jumped
• 2:33
  shipped to this medium to this other
• 2:35
  medium books.
• 2:37
  I I think just like instills a a
• 2:41
  Yeah. like a sense of anxiety about
• 2:43
  like, wait a second, are you trying to
• 2:45
  tell me that games are not as good as
• 2:48
  books? Do you know what I mean? Which is
• 2:49
  not what that person is saying. It's
• 2:51
  just not right. But like I I think that
• 2:54
  there is just this like sort of built-in
• 2:56
  uh self-consciousness that I think a lot
• 2:58
  of people who play a lot of video games,
• 2:59
  myself included to be entirely honest
• 3:01
  with you, have surrounding uh uh
• 3:05
  specifically something like reading. Do
• 3:07
  you does that make any sense? Of course,
• 3:09
  I think there is a cultural and
• 3:11
  psychological backlash happening here
• 3:13
  because this is not a debate about the
• 3:16
  quality of media. It's I think ground
• 3:21
  the response is grounded in like gamers
• 3:23
  feeling like their intelligence and
• 3:25
  their taste and what they kind of choose
• 3:28
  to invest their time in is being judged
• 3:30
  by somebody from a now vaulted position.
• 3:33
  Before we started recording, I said to
• 3:35
  you, um, there's kind of this famous
• 3:36
  quote, taste classifies, and it
• 3:39
  classifies the classifier. And this is
• 3:42
  kind of an old quote, but basically it's
• 3:43
  this it's this runaround way of saying
• 3:45
  that, um, media preferences, what you
• 3:47
  choose to consume, the hobbies that you
• 3:50
  like, the things that you like are part
• 3:52
  of your identity. And I think nowadays
• 3:54
  that is so true for people. That is like
• 3:56
  maybe more true than it's ever been. Oh
• 3:58
  yeah. You you are a Disney adult, you
• 4:00
  know what I mean? You are somebody who
• 4:01
  likes Marvel movies. Even the term gamer
• 4:04
  as if that is some kind of protective
• 4:05
  class protected class. It's like so
• 4:07
  silly. It's just like somebody that
• 4:08
  plays games when like you said like most
• 4:11
  people play games. Yeah.
• 4:12
  >> So it is it is kind of this um this
• 4:14
  funny thing where saying I read books
• 4:17
  now can sound a lot like I have actually
• 4:20
  upgraded myself. I go to the gym now. I
• 4:24
  am somebody who now I have a girl for
• 4:27
  it. It's like like these are kind of the
• 4:29
  things that I think people are hearing
• 4:31
  when they hear I put down video games
• 4:33
  and I started reading books, right?
• 4:35
  >> Yeah. And and I think like
• 4:39
  I do I do to a certain extent understand
• 4:42
  the like kernel of that, right? Because
• 4:45
  I am someone that we talked about on
• 4:46
  this podcast. You you are someone who
• 4:47
  reads a lot. I'm not someone who reads
• 4:49
  that much. And we we talked about how
• 4:51
  this year I would like to kind of change
• 4:52
  that. Last year I read a book which I'm
• 4:54
  actually I know it sounds silly to say
• 4:56
  but like I am proud of myself for like
• 4:57
  doing that for like taking the time to
• 4:58
  like actually sit down and read a book,
• 5:01
  read something, you know. Um and so like
• 5:04
  I do understand that because I do wish I
• 5:06
  were uh uh someone who got like like got
• 5:10
  enjoyment out of reading, you know. Um
• 5:13
  but it's just not something that really
• 5:14
  like appeals to me that much. That said,
• 5:17
  I do think it's important and it's
• 5:18
  something that I think most people would
• 5:20
  all agree is important. And so, when you
• 5:23
  are someone who like knows something is
• 5:25
  important, but you don't do it, isn't
• 5:26
  there a certain level of like like shame
• 5:29
  is I think too strong a word, but
• 5:31
  there's a certain level of like I hope
• 5:32
  no one knows that I'm not reading.
• 5:35
  >> You know what I mean? And I think that
• 5:36
  when something like this happens where
• 5:38
  someone says, "I'm no longer doing this
• 5:40
  thing that you associate so much of your
• 5:43
  personality with or or whatever and I'm
• 5:45
  instead doing this thing that you know
• 5:47
  you should be doing."
• 5:49
  >> I think there's a level of like uh uh
• 5:52
  there's a reaction that that comes with
• 5:54
  that.
• 5:55
  >> Uh definitely. And I think it's worth
• 5:57
  looking at and talking about Disco
• 6:00
  Alisium specifically. Yes. And what
• 6:04
  about that game was maybe that acted as
• 6:08
  like a a bridge for this person and like
• 6:10
  because I think I think anybody with
• 6:12
  even passing familiarity with
• 6:13
  Discolesium can say that it is behaving
• 6:16
  in a way that is different from most
• 6:18
  other video games, right?
• 6:20
  >> Yeah. Because it's a it's a textbased
• 6:23
  it's an RPG with a lot of text. Not text
• 6:25
  based, but there is a a lot of text in
• 6:27
  that game. Um and it is also a game that
• 6:31
  is concerned with its text. It is a game
• 6:34
  that is focused on um deriving meaning
• 6:37
  from the way that it is written from its
• 6:39
  characters who operate. Uh
• 6:43
  I sometimes get frustrated when people
• 6:45
  talk about games and say like, "Oh, it's
• 6:47
  it's kind of like it's elevated because
• 6:48
  it's like a book." When it's like,
• 6:50
  "Yeah, it's it's like a book and that it
• 6:52
  has elements that books have, but like
• 6:55
  those sorts of elements are not
• 6:56
  exclusive to books." But what I'm saying
• 6:58
  here is that like it is something that I
• 7:00
  think there's a very easy connection
• 7:02
  between
• 7:04
  disco allesium and maybe classic
• 7:06
  literature uh or or even contemporary
• 7:09
  literature and stuff like that based on
• 7:11
  the way that it is presented.
• 7:13
  >> Yeah, it's funny there is kind of a if
• 7:15
  you look at video games as they test
• 7:19
  competency and a lot of the the core
• 7:22
  competency that games test can be in
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  reflexes. It can be in memory. It can be
• 7:29
  in like all of these different things
• 7:30
  like understanding a 3D space. I think
• 7:32
  the the core competency of discoium is
• 7:35
  reading.
• 7:36
  >> And it's this funny thing where there's
• 7:38
  this idea of the writerly text. And a
• 7:42
  writerly text is uh something that when
• 7:44
  you read it, the reader is no longer a
• 7:47
  consumer, but they are now a producer of
• 7:50
  meaning alongside the text. Mhm.
• 7:52
  >> And you know, I think it's so easy for
• 7:54
  us to maybe come up with all of these
• 7:57
  things where that is not true for where
• 7:59
  it is kind of about um witnessing one
• 8:03
  specific meaning and kind of getting to
• 8:05
  the end and seeing something all the way
• 8:07
  through. Whereas I do think language
• 8:11
  being the primary
• 8:14
  verb of play in discolesium, the long
• 8:17
  passages of uninterrupted pros, the way
• 8:20
  that you play the video game is actually
• 8:22
  the way that one might interrogate a
• 8:25
  piece of literature. Like that is that
• 8:27
  is the game, right?
• 8:28
  >> You you largely engage with them in the
• 8:31
  same way. And I think it's different
• 8:32
  than like, you know, I think people
• 8:34
  might say like, oh, well, like, you
• 8:36
  know, Jacob Peter, what about stuff like
• 8:37
  visual novels?
• 8:39
  >> Sure.
• 8:39
  >> And and I I do agree because it is, you
• 8:41
  know, same way the same way that you
• 8:43
  engage with um a visual novel is almost
• 8:47
  the exact same with how you read a book.
• 8:48
  And it is that just that the primary
• 8:50
  function is reading, right? But the
• 8:53
  thing that I think is so alluring about
• 8:55
  something like Discolesium and works as
• 8:57
  such a good bridge between those mediums
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  is the way that Disco Allesium is
• 9:02
  concerned with its pros and is invested
• 9:04
  in um you deriving meaning from its
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  language in a way that visual novels
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  tend to not be. That's not to say all of
• 9:13
  them, right? But uh uh largely I think
• 9:16
  uh uh there is a difference there. Does
• 9:18
  that make sense? You know what I mean?
• 9:19
  >> Uh definitely. And I think this kind of
• 9:20
  gets into the the heart of why I I think
• 9:23
  I really, if I could be so transparent,
• 9:25
  wanted to discuss this on the Critical
• 9:28
  Error podcast is because there is this
• 9:31
  concept that I kind of have been
• 9:34
  flirting with for a couple of months now
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  that I do not entirely have figured out
• 9:41
  like how to properly express it for the
• 9:44
  listener. So, I'm going to do my best to
• 9:46
  try here and hope that maybe people will
• 9:49
  understand the majority of what I'm
• 9:51
  trying to say.
• 9:52
  >> Um, I think that there is a quality to
• 9:58
  any piece of art that I'm going to call
• 10:01
  preparedness.
• 10:03
  >> Okay. There there are pieces of art that
• 10:06
  are maybe more prepared and less
• 10:08
  prepared for an exogetic reading, for an
• 10:12
  interrogation of what that art is doing.
• 10:15
  And I started thinking about this for
• 10:17
  the for not the first time, but I think
• 10:19
  the first time it really clocked to me
• 10:20
  as something I was interested in when I
• 10:23
  was playing Pokemon Legends ZA, a game
• 10:26
  that I like a lot.
• 10:27
  >> It's a game that's basically literature
• 10:29
  is what you're trying to say here. It's
• 10:30
  the same as Discolesium. It's it's it's
• 10:32
  I think I think Pokemon Legends EA
• 10:34
  probably inspired a lot of people to
• 10:35
  pick up books.
• 10:36
  >> I think so, too.
• 10:37
  >> You know, it inspired me to put down
• 10:39
  Pokemon Legends EA.
• 10:40
  >> Jesus Christ. Oh god.
• 10:42
  >> Um, yeah. I find the the preparedness of
• 10:47
  Pokemon Legends ZA to pretty much be
• 10:51
  as low as something can be. And I am not
• 10:55
  trying to say that it is like a
• 11:00
  embarrassing piece of art or that
• 11:02
  there's like nothing of value in that
• 11:05
  video game. Um, but I do think if we are
• 11:09
  looking at the words on the page, the
• 11:11
  text, the pros, what it is doing, and
• 11:15
  then I go over to maybe something that
• 11:18
  the listener is more familiar with than
• 11:19
  maybe even you and you or I am, the
• 11:22
  world of like the YouTube video essay
• 11:25
  about these Pokemon games and the way in
• 11:29
  which people will force meaning into the
• 11:33
  text. People will say, "Oh, the reason
• 11:35
  that that this character says this, the
• 11:38
  reason that this this sentence is in the
• 11:39
  text here is actually to illustrate this
• 11:42
  entire world of meaning." And then I
• 11:44
  find that beyond that singular reference
• 11:48
  in the text, beyond beyond some Easter
• 11:50
  egg, some some
• 11:53
  random thing in the environment, the
• 11:55
  game is really not in conversation with
• 11:58
  many of the ideas that people on these
• 12:01
  platforms might want to have you believe
• 12:04
  that it is. Um, like I Okay, you've got
• 12:08
  something to say about this.
• 12:09
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay.
• 12:12
  the the conversation of our games art is
• 12:16
  dead and in the ground and and I will
• 12:18
  never have it. I will never have it.
• 12:20
  It's it's a stupid conversation because
• 12:21
  the answer is yes. Right.
• 12:24
  >> The more interesting question,
• 12:26
  >> what games are good art? Right. And I
• 12:29
  think something like Disco Allesium is
• 12:31
  it a good example of good art? Because
• 12:33
  it is it is a game that is exactly what
• 12:36
  you're saying. Can stand up to
• 12:38
  interrogation. it can be picked apart as
• 12:41
  a piece of art and discussed without
• 12:43
  having to um write fanfiction about it.
• 12:47
  Does that kind of make sense?
• 12:48
  >> That is exactly what I'm reaching for.
• 12:50
  Thank you. Yes. Whereas something like
• 12:52
  uh uh Pokemon Legends EA, which I'm a
• 12:54
  little bit less familiar with because I
• 12:55
  like I just didn't play that much of it,
• 12:57
  but that is a game that um for you to do
• 13:00
  a a a critical reading of it to really
• 13:04
  interrogate it, you going to have to
• 13:06
  make some leaps that are not on the
• 13:10
  like in the game, you know what I mean?
• 13:12
  Uh uh I know we said that we're done
• 13:13
  talking about this, but like it's on the
• 13:15
  mind right now. Now, Metroid Prime 4,
• 13:17
  >> yes, is a game that I think is a bad
• 13:20
  piece of art because I think that in
• 13:22
  order to truly assess it and to truly um
• 13:27
  like find its meaning, you have to do a
• 13:29
  lot of reaching and a lot of like
• 13:31
  filling in the gaps yourself and not in
• 13:33
  a way that the game is like
• 13:35
  intentionally leading you to. I think of
• 13:36
  a game like Returnal is not a game that
• 13:39
  um it's like narrative and themes and
• 13:42
  and things like that are uh those aren't
• 13:44
  handed to you. it's it's placed out for
• 13:46
  you to sort of like put together. That's
• 13:48
  intentional, right? I think Metroid
• 13:49
  Prime 4 does not do that. And so to what
• 13:53
  you're trying to say, I think a lot of
• 13:55
  games just simply are not built to be
• 13:59
  interrogated as a piece of art, which is
• 14:03
  different from how a lot of other uh
• 14:06
  pieces of art across other mediums are.
• 14:09
  And I think uh uh like books for example
• 14:13
  tend to be a lot more willing to
• 14:15
  withstand that interrogation than games.
• 14:18
  I think there's a few reasons for that,
• 14:19
  but I I want to hear what you think with
• 14:20
  that.
• 14:21
  >> Yes. So I think that this idea of
• 14:24
  preparation and this idea of
• 14:26
  withstanding interrogation like you just
• 14:28
  said is such when you love video games
• 14:31
  and video games are the primary uh kind
• 14:33
  of media that you interact with. This
• 14:35
  can feel insulting. This can feel
• 14:38
  exactly so this can feel like so
• 14:40
  confrontational and I so I just really
• 14:42
  want to dig in on this idea of
• 14:44
  preparedness and what I am trying to say
• 14:46
  because I I I think I can make this
• 14:48
  clear to the to the to the listener or
• 14:50
  the viewer and I just want to talk about
• 14:52
  how like like books and piece of lit
• 14:55
  pieces of literature that have held that
• 14:57
  have stood the test of time
• 14:59
  >> um and are studied and are kind of
• 15:01
  written and rewritten about over and
• 15:03
  over again for like literally hundreds
• 15:04
  of years. I think that there is a degree
• 15:06
  to which books structurally are prepared
• 15:09
  for things like close reading, which
• 15:12
  okay, I can close read a video game,
• 15:14
  right? Um, rereading without loss. Great
• 15:17
  art holds up to multiple viewings.
• 15:20
  >> And I wonder how many if if we're really
• 15:22
  being honest with ourselves, how many
• 15:25
  people feel that way about video games?
• 15:27
  How many times have you seen a video
• 15:28
  game written about where it's I cannot
• 15:30
  say I don't want to spoil something, so
• 15:32
  I can't talk about this game. and almost
• 15:34
  as if once you know that spoiler, it is
• 15:37
  not as valuable as as an experience to
• 15:40
  go through the the thing again. Um,
• 15:43
  ambiguity without resolution. I think
• 15:45
  there is a culture around video games
• 15:47
  that it's about finding the answers.
• 15:48
  It's about understanding it better than
• 15:50
  anybody else. Having a Wikipedia or
• 15:52
  lorebrained response to something where
• 15:54
  actually it's about this period. I think
• 15:57
  that there's something about books that
• 15:58
  they are more structurally prepared for
• 16:01
  people to be comfortable with an
• 16:03
  ambiguity around them. Whereas with
• 16:05
  video games, there's something pushing
• 16:07
  people towards one answer. Um, and
• 16:10
  contradiction. Uh, that is something
• 16:12
  that I think I find in games maybe the
• 16:14
  least, the the allowance for competing
• 16:19
  understandings of what a text is doing
• 16:22
  while having both of those
• 16:24
  understandings still be seen as valid.
• 16:26
  Not again, not a kind of like a correct
• 16:28
  answer. Yeah, that look that last thing
• 16:31
  is is such a big
• 16:33
  >> big thing as someone who has been
• 16:35
  working in the YouTube space for the
• 16:37
  last year now.
• 16:39
  >> Um, having a dissenting opinion on a
• 16:41
  game, you very
• 16:44
  >> the vast majority of the people who like
• 16:46
  find your dissenting opinion are not
• 16:49
  going to say like, "Oh, this is a really
• 16:51
  interesting perspective. I disagree."
• 16:52
  But, you know what I mean? Like most
• 16:54
  people are hitting you with just like,
• 16:55
  "No, wrong, bad, wrong, bad." And and
• 16:58
  it's frustrating because it's like, no,
• 17:01
  I'm trying to have that conversation.
• 17:02
  I'm trying to examine. I'm trying to um
• 17:06
  hold games up to the standard that
• 17:09
  people want them to pretend that they
• 17:12
  can be held to. You know, it's this idea
• 17:14
  of like if you are the type of person
• 17:16
  who is um maybe insecure about the idea
• 17:19
  of reading games of like books being
• 17:22
  like a higher brow medium than games,
• 17:26
  then we should be able to assess games
• 17:29
  as pieces of art as works of art in the
• 17:31
  same way that we can assess books. And
• 17:33
  if we can't do that, then maybe
• 17:37
  it's correct. I'm not saying it is, but
• 17:39
  I'm saying that like if we are not able
• 17:41
  to actually discover what games are
• 17:43
  actually able to be held to scrutiny and
• 17:46
  and investigated, then I think it's a
• 17:48
  problem. Um, yeah, it's it's
• 17:54
  I understand the insecurity about it
• 17:56
  >> because like I said, I'm someone who
• 17:57
  doesn't read a lot and I wish I did.
• 17:59
  However, I think that in order to
• 18:03
  confidently look at games as something
• 18:06
  that um can be held up to other mediums
• 18:09
  that uh are largely like culturally like
• 18:12
  accepted as oh these are for smart
• 18:15
  people. Um, I think that we need to
• 18:18
  actually do that work and actually then
• 18:20
  be able to say, you know what, is
• 18:22
  Pokemon Legends ZA, and I'm not saying
• 18:25
  it's a bad game, but I am saying like,
• 18:26
  is that game going to be something that
• 18:28
  is a part of the gaming cannon for all
• 18:31
  of time, or
• 18:34
  is it more akin to
• 18:37
  whatever is big on book talk right now?
• 18:39
  Something that's fun. It's it's it's a
• 18:41
  good thing to check out if you're trying
• 18:42
  to keep up with what's going on in the
• 18:43
  year, but you know, in 10 years, I don't
• 18:46
  know if we're gonna be talking about
• 18:49
  I don't know what is being on a book
• 18:51
  talk, but you know.
• 18:51
  >> Well, and I and I think you're making a
• 18:53
  relevant point here because I think a
• 18:55
  lot of people maybe misunderstand the
• 18:58
  argument at play to say that by virtue
• 19:00
  of something being a book, it is simply
• 19:02
  more artful than a video game.
• 19:04
  >> Correct. Which is not true.
• 19:05
  >> No, no, no, no, no.
• 19:08
  Because in the same way, if I may, in
• 19:10
  the same way that we look like you would
• 19:11
  never say like, "Are books art?" [ __ ]
• 19:13
  obviously. But are all books good art?
• 19:16
  No. Absolutely not. No, of course not.
• 19:19
  >> And there's kind of a funny thing
• 19:20
  happening here, right? because I think
• 19:21
  it's um maybe clear to anybody listening
• 19:23
  that if you had to say which which
• 19:27
  artistic medium is more driven by
• 19:31
  capitalism, books or games,
• 19:34
  >> I think we can all agree
• 19:38
  that maybe games are more invested in
• 19:43
  making money and maybe maybe better at
• 19:46
  making money than books. I don't want to
• 19:48
  see that breakdown of how much money
• 19:50
  books make versus how much money games
• 19:51
  make. I bet you it's a bloodbath.
• 19:54
  >> But it's also this thing though too
• 19:55
  where I I think a very easy push back on
• 19:58
  this conversation from us would be like
• 20:00
  well critical error boys, you don't
• 20:02
  understand. You simply don't understand
• 20:05
  the a single author can write a book.
• 20:10
  >> But so but like the even the concept of
• 20:12
  a solo dev doesn't really exist for the
• 20:14
  most part, right? in terms of like
• 20:15
  getting a a a game out the door. So,
• 20:18
  it's this idea of like, yeah, well, of
• 20:20
  course, a book can stand up to criticism
• 20:23
  and and uh uh interrogation better than
• 20:26
  a game can. Because if if you wrote a
• 20:30
  book and you showed it to someone and
• 20:31
  they said, "Yeah, this kind of doesn't
• 20:34
  really work." You as the author could be
• 20:35
  like, "You know what? Yeah, let me fix
• 20:37
  that myself right now." And like sit on
• 20:39
  your little computer, your typewriter. I
• 20:40
  don't have people write books. And and
• 20:42
  fix it, right? Whereas it's like you
• 20:44
  play a game and you're like, "Hey, this
• 20:46
  sequence like kind of doesn't gel with
• 20:48
  the rest of this thing and I just don't
• 20:49
  know how this works or whatever,
• 20:50
  whatever, whatever." Now you're getting
• 20:51
  like 90 people involved to try and fix a
• 20:53
  thing that like ultimately uh I think
• 20:55
  most people who play games don't really
• 20:57
  care about. Well, and even that
• 20:59
  incredibly salient point aside, uh I
• 21:02
  think if you're con comparing the pros
• 21:04
  of video games to the pros of books, uh
• 21:07
  games should almost always lose because
• 21:11
  if they didn't
• 21:15
  bad for books, I would say.
• 21:16
  >> Yeah. Well,
• 21:17
  >> I would say games are games are a
• 21:19
  mechanically driven medium, right? And
• 21:21
  and books are a like a a word driven
• 21:25
  medium, like a literature driven medium.
• 21:27
  It makes sense that they would be that
• 21:28
  that's the focus of a book, right?
• 21:30
  >> Nobody I don't think anybody should
• 21:32
  argue that the most of the meaning of
• 21:36
  any video game lives in its pros and I
• 21:39
  think that's maybe what makes
• 21:40
  Discolesium different.
• 21:42
  >> Yes, agreed.
• 21:43
  >> So, so this so part of this is something
• 21:47
  something you and I bemoone a lot is the
• 21:50
  expression um games are a young medium.
• 21:54
  >> Yeah. We don't like that expression
• 21:56
  around these parts
• 21:57
  >> 50 years old. I mean I'm not saying that
• 21:59
  like in compar comparatively yes but
• 22:02
  like you know
• 22:03
  >> but it's also I feel that the way that
• 22:06
  that phrase is deployed is almost this
• 22:09
  apologia for games not being artful
• 22:15
  which we actually know that video games
• 22:17
  are quite artful and uh probably always
• 22:21
  have been. And I think the reason that
• 22:26
  I think what's happening here, the maybe
• 22:28
  the maybe dissonance between me and
• 22:30
  somebody who might use that excuse is
• 22:32
  that I would alter it just slightly. I
• 22:34
  would not say that games are young. I
• 22:36
  would say that games criticism is young.
• 22:39
  I would say
• 22:40
  >> yes 100%.
• 22:41
  >> That the that uh our ability to judge
• 22:46
  clearly write about and parse the
• 22:48
  meaning of video games is young. I would
• 22:50
  turn it back on to my peers and I would
• 22:53
  say that maybe our ability to
• 22:57
  evaluate to construct even a critical
• 22:59
  vocabulary uh for talking about what
• 23:02
  games do is so
• 23:06
  behind and amateur-ish. I would even say
• 23:08
  that we don't have a critical vocabulary
• 23:10
  when talking about video games.
• 23:12
  >> No, I would I would agree. And here's
• 23:13
  the thing. I I think with all of this
• 23:15
  like I I hope that our audience is like
• 23:18
  understanding that we're not saying
• 23:20
  these things are black and white, right?
• 23:21
  And like the idea of like, hey, games
• 23:23
  criticism is new and you could point to
• 23:25
  a billion people who have been doing it,
• 23:27
  but I'm talking about like more in the
• 23:28
  mainstream space, right? And and
• 23:32
  so many people look to video game
• 23:35
  reviews now and I think one of the uh
• 23:39
  more than ever before, right? I I think
• 23:40
  the one of the main pillars of our show
• 23:44
  is to look at a lot of those reviews and
• 23:45
  say like is this a review of a piece of
• 23:48
  art?
• 23:50
  >> And I think largely the answer is no.
• 23:53
  >> Um and I the idea of jumping from disco
• 23:58
  allesium to books. M
• 24:02
  I think there is a certain level of um
• 24:08
  recognition of hey this is a piece of
• 24:10
  art and I want to find other like
• 24:11
  handcrafted not handcrafted that's the
• 24:13
  wrong word um uh specifically crafted uh
• 24:16
  intentionally crafted pieces of art that
• 24:18
  do similar things. I think we are
• 24:20
  largely wholly unequipped to
• 24:23
  >> evaluate games in this way based on the
• 24:25
  way that people who uh play games want
• 24:28
  to talk about them.
• 24:31
  There is a
• 24:34
  media scholar who has um written about
• 24:37
  games before uh Espanar and he has this
• 24:41
  um idea that I I might be I I might not
• 24:44
  be representing this perfectly. This is
• 24:46
  kind of like high flutin stuff even for
• 24:47
  me but the this categorization of video
• 24:51
  games as um erotic literature and uh
• 24:56
  erotic is um it's uh from the Greek
• 24:59
  arggon is work and
• 25:02
  the the the the suffix is I think path
• 25:05
  and the idea is that it's like to work
• 25:07
  along a path and meaning rather than
• 25:10
  being passively received it's produced
• 25:13
  through effort. Um, and it's not like
• 25:16
  trivial effort. So like in a book, do
• 25:19
  you need to do the effort of like
• 25:21
  turning a page of like reading left to
• 25:23
  right? Like yes. But um non-trivial
• 25:27
  effort would be making choices,
• 25:28
  navigating structures, um retrying,
• 25:31
  failing, backtracking, learning rules,
• 25:34
  learning systems. It's a structural
• 25:36
  effort, not just like a cognitive
• 25:38
  effort. And I think that already if you
• 25:41
  start from there, there is a framework
• 25:43
  at play for a way in which you could
• 25:46
  critically talk about video games that
• 25:49
  like you said, it's not that good games
• 25:51
  writing doesn't exist. We know that it
• 25:53
  does exist. We know that people produce
• 25:55
  it. But is there a standard for this
• 25:57
  kind of critical work? Has this been
• 26:00
  mainstreamed in a way where in the way
• 26:02
  that people who study film criticism
• 26:04
  kind of have frameworks to to situate
• 26:07
  themselves in to kind of produce work
• 26:10
  that is coherent for an audience? Like I
• 26:13
  do I think we straight up do not have
• 26:16
  that for video games.
• 26:18
  >> Yeah. And it's I think there's a billion
• 26:21
  reasons for it, you know? Well, I I I
• 26:24
  think there's a lot of reasons for it um
• 26:27
  that I I don't necessarily think we need
• 26:29
  to like dive into each one of those
• 26:31
  reasons now because I think it's largely
• 26:32
  like uninteresting, right? Like we
• 26:34
  talked about this before about the uh uh
• 26:38
  the fact that you can't be a games
• 26:40
  critic and have that be your full-time
• 26:42
  job.
• 26:43
  >> You know, you have to if you're a games
• 26:45
  writer, you are writing news and guides
• 26:47
  and previews and reviews and uh
• 26:50
  interviews, right? And so like reviewing
• 26:52
  games is a small portion of your job.
• 26:56
  And uh it is given the same amount of
• 26:59
  like emphasis at least in my experience
• 27:02
  writing about games uh for like
• 27:04
  websites. It is given the same amount of
• 27:05
  emphasis in terms of priority as doing
• 27:07
  news. In fact guides are prioritized
• 27:10
  much more over reviews because guides
• 27:13
  are usually what keep the lights on at a
• 27:15
  lot of these websites and things like
• 27:16
  that. Um, and so I think I think because
• 27:18
  it's not like a it's not like an
• 27:19
  individualized specialized like part of
• 27:21
  games writing, I think that we cannot
• 27:24
  have like a much a better sense of of
• 27:27
  games critique and stuff you were
• 27:28
  saying. Sorry.
• 27:29
  >> No, I I think that that is true, but I
• 27:30
  do want to push back just a little bit
• 27:32
  because I don't think the entire bulk of
• 27:35
  the responsibility of games criticism as
• 27:38
  an art form should befall the games
• 27:41
  media workforce. I think
• 27:43
  >> correct 100%.
• 27:44
  >> Yeah. Like there are a lot of people who
• 27:47
  do this kind of stuff for like the love
• 27:48
  of the game. And I think the love of the
• 27:50
  game is um I mean I would say you and I
• 27:53
  do this for love of the game.
• 27:54
  >> Yeah.
• 27:55
  >> And Yeah. And I think like there is a
• 28:02
  lack of curiosity often times and um
• 28:09
  desire to investigate
• 28:13
  uh other mediums that I think you can
• 28:15
  see reflected in the backlash to the
• 28:17
  original Reddit post that we started
• 28:18
  this podcast talking about.
• 28:20
  >> Yes. And it is it is this idea that
• 28:22
  there is nothing to learn from these
• 28:24
  other places that that I do not have to
• 28:26
  better myself, better my critical
• 28:28
  viewpoint to be somebody who understands
• 28:30
  games. I can talk about video games
• 28:32
  because I have played a lot of video
• 28:34
  games. I can talk about video games
• 28:36
  because I like them a lot. I can talk
• 28:38
  about video games because I have a
• 28:39
  YouTube channel where I talk about them.
• 28:41
  And I think that that is all fine. But
• 28:44
  as somebody interested in the art form
• 28:47
  that is criticism and I don't think you
• 28:49
  need to be a me I don't I don't think I
• 28:52
  think you can work in games media and
• 28:54
  not be interested in that. I think you
• 28:56
  can work in games media and be extremely
• 28:59
  uninterested in that. But I do think
• 29:02
  that historically when you look at other
• 29:04
  art forms um when they emerge something
• 29:07
  that helps legitimize them in the
• 29:08
  mainstream is criticism is the formation
• 29:11
  of criticism around those art forms.
• 29:13
  That's what helps the mainstream see
• 29:15
  them as legitimate. And if you want
• 29:18
  people to see video games as legitimate
• 29:20
  art, there is a responsibility that
• 29:23
  befalls you to
• 29:26
  investigate and to um kind of play a
• 29:31
  role in the formation of serious and
• 29:35
  legitimate criticism that challenges
• 29:38
  you. The critic that is confrontational
• 29:41
  to you. that was that makes it so you
• 29:44
  have to learn something. You have to
• 29:45
  appreciate a perspective that you
• 29:47
  otherwise did not. It cannot it cannot
• 29:50
  and should not come easy to you. I also
• 29:52
  think this is like piggybacking off what
• 29:54
  you're saying, the idea, you know, to go
• 29:56
  back to the Reddit post, but like I, you
• 29:57
  know, I have been reading books now. Um,
• 30:01
  something I think a lot of games critics
• 30:04
  miss.
• 30:05
  >> Uh, and again, not all of them, but many
• 30:07
  I think miss is the idea that like, hey,
• 30:10
  I don't think you should be a good games
• 30:12
  critic. I think you should be a good art
• 30:13
  critic.
• 30:14
  >> And if you if you have a specialization
• 30:16
  in games, great. Like that that's how I
• 30:19
  roll, right? Like I think like uh I am I
• 30:22
  have a degree in film criticism, but I
• 30:24
  think I I specialize in games, but you
• 30:28
  should be looking outside of games as
• 30:30
  often as you can to just get more
• 30:33
  perspectives on stuff. It's funny. We
• 30:34
  were talking about this in our bonus
• 30:36
  episode for um our our Patreon uh uh
• 30:40
  community, patreon.com/critical error.
• 30:42
  Um, we were talking about that this week
• 30:44
  about how uh
• 30:46
  >> H Bomberg Guysy's videos about like uh
• 30:50
  Pathologic and stuff like that, but one
• 30:52
  of his videos that he makes that he made
• 30:53
  is about Dark Souls II. And it's really
• 30:55
  interesting because Dark Souls II starts
• 30:56
  with um these old women who are like
• 30:59
  weaving and it's it's kind of weird
• 31:01
  because it's not something that you ever
• 31:02
  really see in the Dark Souls series
• 31:04
  before or after that. and he talks about
• 31:06
  how um
• 31:09
  the Dark Souls wiki for these women is
• 31:11
  incredibly short because there's no
• 31:13
  information on them and there's no lore
• 31:15
  about them. But that's because they're
• 31:18
  from movies. They're from like Kurasawa
• 31:20
  films who are these like weaver
• 31:21
  characters who are like basically like
• 31:23
  the fates from like Greek mythology
• 31:25
  essentially. But he talks about this
• 31:26
  idea that like um you
• 31:31
  wouldn't know that if you only played
• 31:33
  games
• 31:34
  >> and and to be a a more uh a better
• 31:37
  viewer of games as an art form is you
• 31:39
  need to expand your horizons, right? I
• 31:41
  was watching um uh I watched No
• 31:44
  Ferraratu, the the Robert Eager's one uh
• 31:48
  this past weekend and I was watching it.
• 31:49
  was like thinking about like Victorian
• 31:51
  architecture and the idea of like the
• 31:52
  plague and all this sort of stuff. And
• 31:55
  then that got me thinking about
• 31:56
  Bloodborne a little bit because I was
• 31:57
  like, "Oh, like that's that's a game
• 31:58
  with such a such a um
• 32:01
  strong fascination in that sort of those
• 32:03
  sorts of ideas as well." Um, and I like
• 32:06
  I you know, I wasn't doing any like work
• 32:08
  on it, but I was just like making some
• 32:09
  connections in my head like think like,
• 32:11
  oh man, like the way it's portrayed in
• 32:12
  this movie kind of reminds me of this
• 32:14
  one thing and it just sort of it meshes
• 32:16
  together well. And then through that, I
• 32:19
  think if I were to like make something
• 32:20
  about Bloodborne, that might be a piece
• 32:22
  of work that I return to to think about
• 32:24
  and think about what what it's trying to
• 32:26
  do with that setting, what it what it's
• 32:28
  trying to do with those ideas in
• 32:29
  addition to what's going on in stuff
• 32:31
  something like Bloodborne. You know what
• 32:32
  I mean?
• 32:32
  >> 100%. You're speaking to
• 32:34
  well-roundedness. Well-roundedness makes
• 32:36
  you uh a more informed critic. It also
• 32:39
  makes you a better and more informed
• 32:41
  human being in every aspect of life.
• 32:43
  Yeah.
• 32:43
  >> Uh yeah, it turns out um I
• 32:48
  cannot imagine a least a less
• 32:50
  interesting perspective than that of
• 32:53
  just uh my perspective is that I play
• 32:56
  every single video game and I know them
• 32:57
  all. Like I like I and I and I that's
• 32:59
  that's as I said that it sound I think
• 33:01
  it maybe sounded a little bit meaner
• 33:03
  than I intended it to. Um, but I think
• 33:06
  what I mean by that is that I know that
• 33:08
  anybody who inhabits that perspective
• 33:11
  that there is actually much more to that
• 33:12
  person than they are letting on.
• 33:14
  >> Yeah.
• 33:14
  >> And I think I am more interested in
• 33:17
  other aspects of that person than I am
• 33:20
  on somebody trying to cosplay as a
• 33:23
  Wikipedia
• 33:24
  >> because Okay, so here's the thing, too.
• 33:26
  I think about like the idea of if
• 33:28
  someone played Disco Allesium and they
• 33:30
  were like, "Peter, can you tell me other
• 33:32
  games that are like this?" Yes.
• 33:34
  >> And and I you would have to talk to them
• 33:36
  and be like, "Well, what did you like
• 33:37
  about it?" And they're like, "I loved
• 33:38
  the text of it. I loved the way that it
• 33:39
  was." Right. You might have to say, "No,
• 33:44
  dog. You got to check out books because
• 33:46
  books informed the creation of this
• 33:49
  game." Do you know what I mean? So,
• 33:50
  like, for example, you remember the game
• 33:52
  Venba? Did you play that game?
• 33:53
  >> Yeah.
• 33:53
  >> Mhm.
• 33:54
  >> I love Venba. It's a little It's It's
• 33:56
  like a It's like I don't know like an
• 33:57
  hour hour 15. uh where it's it's kind of
• 34:01
  a visual novel slash like little like
• 34:03
  cooking miniame um about a family that
• 34:06
  comes from India and they move to Canada
• 34:08
  and it's about like having a son and do
• 34:10
  you raise that son to be Canadian do you
• 34:13
  raise them to be Indian like how do you
• 34:14
  how does all that work and if someone
• 34:16
  said like Peter what should I do to
• 34:19
  engage with something like Venba
• 34:21
  >> if I want more Venba what should I do I
• 34:24
  might say go to an Indian restaurant you
• 34:27
  know what I mean like like like go go go
• 34:29
  experience because what if what you
• 34:31
  liked about that was that it was a
• 34:32
  cultural experience where you got to
• 34:34
  learn about like a new thing that you
• 34:36
  didn't even know about, maybe go to a
• 34:39
  place like that and that's not a video
• 34:41
  game, you know? And of course there's
• 34:42
  like games that you could definitely
• 34:44
  recommend that are like of a similar
• 34:45
  like ilk, right? But like like go be
• 34:49
  multi multiaceted. Go try something new
• 34:52
  that isn't just this one thing. And I
• 34:54
  think you're going to be like you said
• 34:55
  like well-roundedness. you'll be a more
• 34:57
  well-rounded person.
• 34:58
  >> Yeah, it's funny. So many games I think
• 35:00
  uh kind of alluding back to the Pokemon
• 35:02
  comparison that I made earlier. I think
• 35:04
  I think that there are so many people
• 35:05
  who play games that are interested in
• 35:07
  like really big ideas. There was uh in
• 35:10
  2024 when Metaphor Refantasia was like
• 35:13
  the thing that everybody good. Yes.
• 35:16
  >> Yeah. That thing that like everybody was
• 35:17
  interested in. I found that there were
• 35:19
  maybe ideas in that game that people
• 35:21
  were like, "Oh, this is like the first
• 35:23
  piece of media I have found that is like
• 35:26
  really kind of like engaging with some
• 35:28
  of these higher-minded ideas that I'm
• 35:30
  actually really interested in hearing or
• 35:32
  reading about." And I think that kind of
• 35:35
  like what you're saying here, a maybe
• 35:38
  another another bridge that's a step
• 35:41
  further than playing Metaphor Refantasio
• 35:43
  would be to recommend somebody some
• 35:46
  books that I think that they might find
• 35:47
  revoly on those same topics. Uh
• 35:51
  >> Metaphor is about a book.
• 35:53
  >> It's based up what's the book? Do you
• 35:54
  know what I'm talking about?
• 35:55
  >> I Yeah, it's not coming to It's not
• 35:57
  coming to me.
• 35:57
  >> It's like classic something. Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:59
  It's not it's not coming to me. But um
• 36:02
  yeah, what the the other one I was
• 36:05
  thinking too is I was like, man, maybe
• 36:06
  somebody listening to this podcast might
• 36:10
  want a book recommendation that is kind
• 36:12
  of like Disco Alisium in which
• 36:15
  >> hit me with one. Okay,
• 36:16
  >> someone who doesn't read that much.
• 36:18
  >> Okay, so one of my favorite authors is
• 36:20
  uh Michael Chaba and he wrote uh one of
• 36:23
  my favorite books called Wonderboys. Uh,
• 36:25
  but people are probably most familiar
• 36:27
  with him via the uh Adventures of
• 36:30
  Cavalere and Clay is kind of the the
• 36:34
  famous one by him. I think I think
• 36:36
  there's another famous one that is now
• 36:38
  dropping out of my my brain that I'm not
• 36:40
  remembering, but
• 36:41
  >> Oh.
• 36:41
  >> Uh oh, you got it.
• 36:43
  >> No, I'm just I got The Amazing
• 36:44
  Adventures of Cavalere and Clay.
• 36:46
  >> People love that one. That that one
• 36:47
  shows up in school a lot. Um, but I
• 36:50
  would say his book, uh, The Yedish
• 36:52
  Policemen's Union
• 36:54
  >> is has a lot of connective tissue to,
• 36:58
  okay, I just like his pros. I will say
• 36:59
  I'm like a mark for anything this guy
• 37:00
  writes, even when I'm not interested in
• 37:02
  the subject matter. But um I think that
• 37:04
  they are both interested in this issue
• 37:05
  of like how a person who you might
• 37:08
  describe as broken uh can think and
• 37:12
  exist within a broken political system
• 37:15
  and how that person's language becomes
• 37:19
  this self- aacing tool for how to make
• 37:21
  sense of the world that they live in and
• 37:24
  the um kind of like unfortunate
• 37:26
  circumstances that they have to exist
• 37:27
  in. So, it's a it's a book that I think
• 37:29
  is the the protagonist is like extremely
• 37:33
  competent and observant, but also uh
• 37:36
  perpetually tired.
• 37:38
  >> And I think in Discolesium,
• 37:42
  you have this uh this case that you're
• 37:44
  preoccupied with, but what you're really
• 37:45
  investigating is like your your this
• 37:48
  character and your your ideology, your
• 37:49
  self-loathing, um and like your kind of
• 37:52
  dormant desires. And in both of these
• 37:55
  books, there's kind of like a crime at
• 37:56
  the center of them. Uh, which is, you
• 37:58
  know, the policeman's union. Can you
• 38:00
  imagine? It's interested in crime. Uh,
• 38:02
  but it's less the crime is not like the
• 38:05
  focus of the book. It's really just to
• 38:08
  situate this like consciousness amidst
• 38:11
  this thing that's happening in the So
• 38:12
  anyways, um, allegorical political
• 38:15
  fiction. Uh, really good book. Michael
• 38:17
  Chabun. Highly recommend. But if you're
• 38:18
  going to pick up anything,
• 38:19
  >> okay,
• 38:20
  >> Wonder Boys, dude.
• 38:21
  >> Wonder Boys. Oh my god. Good movie with
• 38:24
  Michael Douglas and um Spider-Man.
• 38:28
  Spider-Man Toby Magcguire.
• 38:30
  >> Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. I was like there's
• 38:32
  six of them.
• 38:33
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:34
  >> Here's something interesting too about
• 38:35
  about hopping mediums as well. I find
• 38:37
  that like
• 38:40
  because you like learned about books in
• 38:42
  school. Come with me here. Because
• 38:43
  >> Oh my god, I love this. Please.
• 38:44
  >> Because you did so much work about books
• 38:46
  in school.
• 38:48
  you I think it's it's really easy to for
• 38:51
  me at least to like talk about the
• 38:53
  things that makes books unique and to
• 38:55
  talk about the things that would make a
• 38:56
  good a book a good piece of art a good
• 38:59
  book right
• 39:01
  >> uh uh that's like imagery through
• 39:03
  through like repetition and and like
• 39:05
  like all sorts of like like uh uh uh
• 39:10
  >> mecha like the mechanics of a book right
• 39:13
  the way a story is told is the important
• 39:17
  thing right I think about um we talked
• 39:19
  about one of your I think in Street
• 39:20
  Fighter Girls 2, the the piece that you
• 39:23
  wrote um where we were talking about
• 39:24
  like what I really loved was the way
• 39:27
  that you uh
• 39:30
  used the details in a space to paint the
• 39:34
  scene. You know, you talk about, okay,
• 39:36
  the chair is at the desk, whatever, and
• 39:38
  the this is on the bed, but then like
• 39:40
  you don't really describe the rest of
• 39:41
  the room because you don't need to
• 39:42
  because you're painting a specific
• 39:43
  picture and the rest is filled in.
• 39:45
  you're using like like literary devices
• 39:49
  in that moment to make some to make
• 39:50
  someone feel a thing. And I think for me
• 39:52
  personally, it's really easy to identify
• 39:54
  literary devices and stuff like that
• 39:55
  because we learned about them a lot in
• 39:57
  school.
• 39:59
  >> So then when you shift over to video
• 40:00
  games,
• 40:02
  >> you can still use some of those same
• 40:03
  literary devices, right? Or like I I
• 40:06
  think of course games get compared to
• 40:08
  like film a lot, right? You can use a
• 40:10
  lot of the like film language to talk
• 40:12
  about video games, but then you get to
• 40:14
  this point where you're like, well, how
• 40:17
  do I talk about the mechanics? How do I
• 40:19
  talk about the connection between what
• 40:21
  you're doing in the game and how it
• 40:23
  makes you feel or what what is happening
• 40:25
  in the narrative versus what you're
• 40:27
  doing in the game and those sorts of
• 40:28
  things.
• 40:30
  >> That's when you start to get into like,
• 40:31
  oh, this is what makes games unique.
• 40:32
  It's an art form. M
• 40:34
  >> and I think by identifying the things
• 40:35
  that make other art forms uh unique and
• 40:38
  and easy jumping to other art forms that
• 40:41
  I think we might have better language to
• 40:43
  discuss and we might have a history of
• 40:46
  discussing in our literal like lives. I
• 40:49
  think that's when you start to really
• 40:50
  dig into like oh this is the thing that
• 40:52
  we should be talking about with games.
• 40:53
  >> Yeah. And that kind of think calls back
• 40:55
  to that point I was making earlier about
• 40:56
  kind of the standard of criticism and
• 40:58
  like having a vocabulary and things like
• 40:59
  that. But also, I think you can like
• 41:02
  normalize this comparison so quickly by
• 41:04
  understanding that most books are um one
• 41:10
  of three things. Airport thrillers,
• 41:13
  young adult fantasy, or mass market
• 41:15
  romance. And these books are designed to
• 41:18
  be um plot- driven, stylistically
• 41:22
  transparent, and designed for the reader
• 41:25
  momentum. And I think that people would
• 41:29
  agree that video games I think are
• 41:32
  designed for flow, clarity, and the
• 41:35
  reduction of friction.
• 41:37
  >> Yeah.
• 41:37
  >> And and I Yeah. And so I I hope people
• 41:41
  don't there's this temptation, I think,
• 41:43
  to walk away from this conversation
• 41:45
  thinking that this is about elitism and
• 41:48
  being unfair to the to the medium of
• 41:50
  video games. But what I really
• 41:54
  appreciated about what you just said is
• 41:57
  that there is kind of this
• 42:01
  this way in which people will talk about
• 42:05
  the
• 42:06
  meaning that is communicated in games
• 42:09
  through like the perceived quality of
• 42:11
  the dialogue, the coherence of the plot
• 42:14
  and how um obvious the character arcs
• 42:17
  are, which is like I like I like a
• 42:21
  really like a lower reading level is how
• 42:23
  you might talk about books. But to do
• 42:25
  that, you would have to ignore
• 42:27
  everything that the games are doing that
• 42:29
  are not pros, that are not that are not
• 42:31
  how the meaning is constructed outside
• 42:33
  of like the text. And I do find that a
• 42:36
  lot of people in kind of like games
• 42:37
  criticism do kind of operate in that
• 42:39
  way. But that is why um
• 42:43
  games are always going to lose the books
• 42:45
  because because we're because we're
• 42:46
  grading them on a scale that the books
• 42:48
  decided.
• 42:50
  >> Yes. Yes. Oh gosh. This is like Jake,
• 42:54
  this is wrap it up. This is the final
• 42:56
  episode of Critical Error is what I'm
• 42:57
  getting at because this is like just
• 42:58
  like the point. This is the point. The
• 43:00
  idea that like okay, we can talk about
• 43:02
  games like they're movies. We can talk
• 43:04
  about games like they're books, but when
• 43:06
  we talk about books, we don't talk about
• 43:07
  them how like how they're movies.
• 43:10
  >> We talk about, you know what I mean?
• 43:11
  Like like like
• 43:12
  >> of course there's like shared elements.
• 43:14
  There's shared elements. Of course. But
• 43:16
  like like
• 43:18
  >> why not talk about the book? Yeah, why
• 43:20
  not the movie, you know?
• 43:22
  >> Um, and and so developing that language
• 43:25
  to to actually discuss games in this
• 43:27
  way, I think, is so important. And I
• 43:30
  also find, um,
• 43:34
  there's this level of
• 43:39
  we've seen a lot of like Marvelification
• 43:41
  in film discussion, right? where if a
• 43:45
  movie is not does not sort of like check
• 43:47
  the boxes that like the best Marvel
• 43:49
  movies check then they are not good
• 43:53
  right it's always interesting you see to
• 43:54
  to what I would say like the the average
• 43:57
  viewer it's always interesting to see
• 43:58
  like a movie that has like a really high
• 44:00
  critic score and a really low audience
• 44:02
  score and you watch the like I don't
• 44:04
  know like I said I have a degree in film
• 44:05
  criticism I watch the mo a movie like
• 44:07
  that and I'll go like yep I know exactly
• 44:09
  why that happened because it is a movie
• 44:11
  that is not necessarily trying to do all
• 44:12
  of the things that we have all sort of
• 44:14
  decided are what are in big
• 44:16
  blockbusters. But that doesn't mean it's
• 44:17
  not good. And I think that um there's a
• 44:22
  threshold for how good or for how deep
• 44:26
  maybe something that needs to check all
• 44:28
  of those boxes can be. And so when we
• 44:31
  turn to video games,
• 44:33
  >> I'm not saying Pokemon Legends ZA isn't
• 44:35
  a fun game. But I am saying that if it
• 44:37
  has to be this, this this this this
• 44:40
  this. Is there not a threshold for how
• 44:43
  good it can possibly be if it needs to
• 44:45
  make sure that all those things happen?
• 44:46
  >> And uh I think that's extremely related
• 44:48
  to uh my Octopath Traveler piece about
• 44:51
  kind of the dissatisfaction of the
• 44:53
  narrative not everybody not coming
• 44:55
  together at the end. Right.
• 44:56
  >> I want to read it. I want to read it. I
• 44:57
  I haven't had the time because I liked
• 44:59
  what you wrote, but you said that it's
• 45:00
  like way different on your blog, right?
• 45:01
  >> Yes. The piece I wrote on the podcast
• 45:03
  for the listeners last week uh is now on
• 45:05
  my blog, jigsburggraphsack.com, but it
• 45:07
  is um highly edited, which I think is
• 45:09
  actually kind of fun because you get to
• 45:12
  see the benefits of the revision
• 45:14
  process, I think, unfold right in front
• 45:16
  of you and how I think I sharpened that
• 45:18
  piece into something. But um also, you
• 45:21
  know, I kind of want to leave the
• 45:24
  listener with like a bit of a warning.
• 45:27
  And there is something that I think when
• 45:30
  people get excited to parse a video game
• 45:36
  for meaning, to perform kind of like a
• 45:38
  close reading of something happening in
• 45:39
  a game, and then I would say oftentimes
• 45:42
  maybe accidentally end up writing
• 45:44
  fanfiction, maybe getting a little bit
• 45:46
  too far away from uh the text,
• 45:50
  participating in a little bit of that
• 45:51
  blue curtains discourse if you are so
• 45:53
  familiar. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, and I think
• 45:56
  that that can feel really fun and
• 45:59
  enlightening and like you're really
• 46:00
  engaging with the text on a higher
• 46:02
  level. But I do think, and I'm so sorry,
• 46:05
  maybe there's a bit of a teacher coming
• 46:07
  out in me right now, the best way to
• 46:11
  kind of hone your craft as a reader, to
• 46:14
  hone your critical eye, is to parse a
• 46:18
  book for meaning. is to to read a book
• 46:21
  and take something that you know is
• 46:24
  prepared for the kind of interrogation
• 46:26
  you are interested in performing rather
• 46:28
  than trying to force that interrogation
• 46:30
  onto something that is not prepared for
• 46:32
  you to engage with it in that way. I am
• 46:35
  not picking up the newest mass market
• 46:38
  romance book which is awesome and I
• 46:41
  suggest everyone read and will make your
• 46:44
  flight go by like that but I am not
• 46:47
  performing my highest degree of my
• 46:49
  exoggetic lens on that book because it
• 46:51
  is not prepared for that. So taking
• 46:53
  something that is and challenging
• 46:56
  yourself, confronting yourself to to say
• 46:59
  I am going to do this because it is
• 47:01
  going to be like a workout like going to
• 47:03
  the gym like working on a muscle that I
• 47:05
  have not yet begun to hone and work will
• 47:09
  make you a more inspired video game
• 47:12
  player. Will make you a more
• 47:14
  well-rounded person. It will make you be
• 47:16
  able to appreciate things that were
• 47:18
  previously invisible to you. I promise.
• 47:20
  I swear it. we will experience the
• 47:22
  ecstasy of discovery. This I believe
• 47:24
  this with my whole heart 10 toes down.
• 47:27
  Um I I know I know how annoying it is. I
• 47:30
  know I hate when people weaponize this
• 47:33
  phrase, but god damn read a book. And
• 47:37
  here's the thing. The reason why I think
• 47:39
  books are a good place to start with
• 47:40
  this is because you already know how to
• 47:41
  do it cuz you went to school.
• 47:43
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:44
  >> Jake, can I tell you about our uh lovely
• 47:48
  critical error nation?
• 47:49
  >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes,
• 47:51
  >> patreon.com/critical
• 47:52
  error you will find I mean just hours
• 47:56
  and hours and hours of bonus content
• 47:59
  content
• 48:00
  >> that we made just for you the person
• 48:03
  listening to this podcast today we had
• 48:07
  we had an unexpectedly big ep bonus
• 48:10
  episode.
• 48:11
  >> Well, and last week we never even talked
• 48:13
  about our surprise.
• 48:14
  >> Oh my gosh. Yeah, we we we did two bonus
• 48:16
  episodes last week just for the hell of
• 48:18
  it. and and and and we it wasn't a whole
• 48:21
  thing. It was just like, hey, check it
• 48:22
  out. Two bonus episodes for your
• 48:24
  listening pleasure. If you're interested
• 48:26
  in getting more of us, uh the bonus show
• 48:29
  we we unbutton a little bit, kind of
• 48:31
  kind of talk a little bit more free
• 48:33
  flow, little little less structure. Um
• 48:35
  you can find that again,
• 48:35
  patreon.com/critical
• 48:37
  error. Before we move on though, I would
• 48:39
  like to give a very special thanks to
• 48:42
  the people in the Jake and Peter tier of
• 48:44
  the nation. People like Andrew Bulkar,
• 48:47
  Evan Pon, Evan Snee, Mero, and Robert
• 48:52
  Quesada. All of these people are at the
• 48:54
  highest tier supporting us financially,
• 48:56
  which means the entire world to us. But
• 48:58
  Jake, those aren't the only people that
• 49:00
  we want to give direct shoutouts, is it?
• 49:04
  >> Absolutely not. We've got to play the
• 49:06
  sound for the members of the Critical
• 49:08
  and Error Nation supporting us at the
• 49:11
  $10 and up tiers. Play the sound. Can
• 49:16
  you believe this support from the Jake
• 49:17
  and Peter tier members Andrew Bulkar,
• 49:19
  Anelult Trait, Evan Pon, Evan Sne, and
• 49:21
  Merro. Thank you so much again for your
• 49:23
  support and the critical era team
• 49:26
  members Cole, Connor True Love, Danny
• 49:28
  Disaster, Jacob Richter, James Pierre
• 49:30
  Reed, Jared Kuseno, Kale Chow, Sam
• 49:33
  Cedar, Sam Woods, and Sheen. Thank you
• 49:36
  again. And we're back. All right, we end
• 49:39
  every episode of this podcast with a
• 49:42
  piece that we have written in advance.
• 49:45
  It's the kind of thing where, you know,
• 49:47
  podcasts by their very nature are are a
• 49:50
  little bit from the hip, a little bit
• 49:51
  improv, a little yes and free form. Uh,
• 49:54
  and I think preparation, having doing
• 49:57
  your homework, thinking about something
• 49:59
  in advance is just an important thing
• 50:02
  for any critic to do and make a ritual
• 50:04
  and a practice of. So I for one am very
• 50:07
  glad that we have this at the end of
• 50:09
  each and every show. It means that we
• 50:12
  had to have thought about something
• 50:14
  before coming on to record here. And now
• 50:16
  Peter is going to with your turn this
• 50:18
  week share with the class what you
• 50:21
  thought about.
• 50:22
  >> So I said this in our bonus pod uh that
• 50:25
  I struggled this week a little bit. I've
• 50:26
  actually, to be entirely uh candid, I
• 50:29
  I've been having a lot of um I've been
• 50:30
  feeling a lot of burnout and a lot of uh
• 50:33
  creative sort of stagnation, which is
• 50:35
  frustrating when your job is to make
• 50:38
  stuff and be creative. And uh so I wrote
• 50:40
  a whole piece about Metroid Prime 4 and
• 50:42
  then I was like, "This
• 50:45
  sucks." Like I I've I've tried to write
• 50:47
  about the game a few times and I think
• 50:49
  this is the final nail in the coffin
• 50:50
  where I'm like, "I'm done. I'm done. I
• 50:51
  can't do it." Um, and and so I scrapped
• 50:54
  it uh in favor of this, which I'm gonna
• 50:58
  be excited to see where it goes in the
• 51:00
  future. Jake, it was only a matter of
• 51:03
  time. Please enjoy.
• 51:29
  I share a birthday with an artist.
• 51:34
  He died in 95.
• 51:39
  Every year we pass his death day.
• 51:43
  I wonder if he'll share mine.
• 51:47
  I'm petrified of growing older,
• 51:52
  but please don't tell mom.
• 51:56
  Was hard enough to lose her brother.
• 52:00
  She shouldn't have to lose a son.
• 52:04
  I've had a year full of losses and
• 52:07
  shame. Now I stare at the wall in my
• 52:10
  room.
• 52:13
  Sneak out at night, cut your hair, start
• 52:16
  a fight. Now we're howling like dogs at
• 52:19
  the moon.
• 52:21
  Yeah, we're howling like dogs at the
• 52:23
  moon.
• 52:32
  Your mom keeps asking how I'm doing.
• 52:37
  I lie through my teeth.
• 52:41
  I just can't shake the feeling
• 52:46
  she's disappointed in me.
• 52:50
  I wish you would understand me.
• 52:55
  Or I wish that you tried.
• 52:59
  Either way, there's no difference.
• 53:03
  Count the broken street lights.
• 53:07
  I had a year full of losses and shame.
• 53:11
  Now I stare at the wall in my room.
• 53:16
  Sneak out at night, cut your hair, start
• 53:19
  a fight. Now we're howling like dogs at
• 53:22
  the moon.
• 53:24
  Yeah, we're howling like dogs at the
• 53:26
  moon.
• 53:29
  Thank you.
• 53:30
  >> Oh my god, what a privilege. Oh my god.
• 53:32
  Okay, so first off, I'm shocked how good
• 53:34
  it sounded on my end. So, I'm I'm happy
• 53:37
  to hear that I did do an iPhone or an my
• 53:40
  phone recording of this. I have no idea
• 53:42
  if it was going to come through or not.
• 53:43
  Okay, cool.
• 53:43
  >> I think it was good actually. I was I
• 53:45
  was definitely like the second you
• 53:46
  reached for the guitar, I was like, "Oh,
• 53:47
  I'm going to have to do something." And
• 53:49
  then you then you started and I was
• 53:50
  like, "Oh, no, that's actually quite
• 53:52
  good."
• 53:52
  >> Good. I'm so glad. I'm so glad.
• 53:53
  >> Yeah. So, that was a that was a great
• 53:54
  experience.
• 53:55
  >> So, um
• 53:57
  >> Wow, Peter. I feel like that should like
• 53:59
  cost people extra.
• 54:02
  >> Here's the thing. The YouTube video
• 54:03
  should have like a popup and it's like,
• 54:05
  "Sorry, $3 if you want to hear the rest
• 54:08
  of this." H
• 54:09
  >> how about this? If if you want to pay
• 54:10
  for it, patreon.com/
• 54:12
  >> patreon.com. Yeah, you're right.
• 54:14
  >> Um I mean, here's the thing. I I like I
• 54:15
  said, I've been struggling with with
• 54:17
  some like
• 54:19
  my writing as in like sitting down on my
• 54:21
  computer to write scripts and videos and
• 54:23
  and like whatever. I I I've just like
• 54:25
  been hitting this block where like
• 54:27
  nothing has felt good. Um, and I had a
• 54:31
  little bit of that song for the like the
• 54:33
  last few months. And then a few nights
• 54:35
  ago, I sort of sat down and and got a
• 54:36
  little bit more of it done. And I was
• 54:38
  like, "Oh, this is starting to shape up
• 54:39
  into something that I really like." And
• 54:40
  I was like, you know, this is a show
• 54:42
  about writing and whatever. And I was
• 54:43
  like,
• 54:44
  >> you know, we do sometimes it's fiction,
• 54:46
  sometimes it's personal essays,
• 54:47
  sometimes like game reviews and
• 54:48
  whatever. I was like, let me bring
• 54:50
  another aspect of writing to this that,
• 54:52
  you know, it's not games criticism. It's
• 54:53
  not about games at all, but like there's
• 54:56
  a little something to that. You know
• 54:57
  what I mean? Oh, no. 100%. That was that
• 54:59
  was awesome. I'm thinking like Well,
• 55:02
  first off, you just said something that
• 55:03
  I tell my students all the time about
• 55:04
  how like writing is remembering and how
• 55:06
  you kind of like have something and you
• 55:10
  >> wait for you you kind of like arrive on
• 55:14
  this idea when you are like ready to
• 55:17
  put this together. I don't know. There's
• 55:18
  something there's something in here that
• 55:20
  I'm trying to say right now that is kind
• 55:21
  of like the antithesis of what AI
• 55:23
  achieves and how you like arrive at the
• 55:24
  answer immediately. And this is like
• 55:27
  part of the artistic process that I
• 55:28
  really appreciate. And um I also think
• 55:31
  I, you know, I got this Discord maybe or
• 55:33
  this question in our Discord maybe like
• 55:35
  a week or two ago where it was somebody
• 55:37
  being like, Jake, you do a lot of
• 55:38
  different artistic things. How do you
• 55:39
  like balance it all? And you're you kind
• 55:41
  of answered that right there where like
• 55:45
  sometimes you know we are human beings
• 55:47
  and we have all these forces
• 55:49
  constantly enacting on us and sometimes
• 55:53
  like the thing that you need to do is
• 55:54
  not the thing that you feel like you
• 55:56
  need to do.
• 55:57
  >> Yes.
• 55:59
  >> Yeah. Walk away and your like work will
• 56:01
  be better for it. I know I've been
• 56:02
  experiencing that a lot lately where
• 56:03
  there's like a lot of work that I like
• 56:05
  need to do and I actually like ended up
• 56:07
  picking up like this this like fiction
• 56:09
  stuff that I haven't worked on forever
• 56:10
  and I'm like working on it and I'm like
• 56:12
  oh god this is like it's like so much
• 56:15
  it's like singing now that I like took a
• 56:17
  year off of it and it's that's crazy.
• 56:19
  It's like magic dude. It's h
• 56:21
  >> I mean, so I haven't written music like
• 56:24
  sat down to like write songs in like a
• 56:26
  year because I because we did our album
• 56:29
  >> and like I I wrote a [ __ ] ton for that
• 56:32
  and then it was about recording it and
• 56:34
  then it was about like getting it out
• 56:35
  the door and
• 56:38
  >> I like
• 56:40
  I wrote the first little bit of that
• 56:41
  song like I said like two months ago,
• 56:43
  three months ago and I was like what am
• 56:44
  I doing? this song isn't going to see
• 56:46
  the light of day if it ever does for
• 56:48
  like two years like minimum right and I
• 56:52
  was like but that doesn't matter like
• 56:54
  let me let me sit down let me write let
• 56:55
  me express let me let me work on
• 56:58
  something because
• 57:00
  >> in the same way that like hey it's good
• 57:02
  to experience other bits of art and and
• 57:05
  things like that to um come back and and
• 57:07
  like hone the craft of like video game
• 57:09
  criticism or or like talking about games
• 57:11
  or experiencing games whatever like it
• 57:14
  is good to jump [ __ ] and try something
• 57:16
  else and and say like this is this helps
• 57:19
  my creative juices flow. And once my
• 57:20
  they're flowing here, there's a a
• 57:24
  like
• 57:26
  symbiotic relationship between a lot of
• 57:28
  these things within ourselves. It's
• 57:30
  like, okay, if I can get it flowing for
• 57:31
  this, maybe I can get it flowing for
• 57:32
  something else.
• 57:34
  >> I think something I like about doing
• 57:36
  this podcast with you is that you and I
• 57:38
  are both people that take our like quote
• 57:40
  unquote craft like really seriously. And
• 57:43
  and I don't mean that as like we're
• 57:44
  we're like I don't think we're like
• 57:46
  elitist about it, but I do think we
• 57:48
  think more about kind of the process and
• 57:52
  how we will
• 57:54
  >> arrive at doing the work than we do at
• 57:58
  just like
• 58:00
  >> okay now the thing I I don't want to
• 58:03
  speak for you but I think sometimes I'm
• 58:05
  like
• 58:07
  more proud of the work I do before the
• 58:10
  thing I produce comes out. Dude,
• 58:13
  >> it's work that nobody sees. I'm sure
• 58:15
  I've talked about this on a podcast at
• 58:17
  least once. Um,
• 58:20
  our drummer, his name's Trevor, he asked
• 58:22
  me, he was like, um, do you Were these
• 58:26
  like the 11 songs you had when we for
• 58:28
  the album? And I was like, Trevor, I had
• 58:30
  like 30.
• 58:31
  >> Yeah.
• 58:31
  >> I had like 30 and they all sucked. And
• 58:33
  and these songs are like pieced together
• 58:35
  of like like the best bits from one
• 58:37
  little idea and then you know you make
• 58:39
  it work in this thing and this thing and
• 58:40
  this thing and like that's the stuff
• 58:42
  that like that's the stuff I'm good at.
• 58:45
  Like that is the thing I'm actually
• 58:46
  really I think I'm really good at is is
• 58:48
  putting it together in that kind of
• 58:50
  work. But it's so frustrating because
• 58:52
  it's just like a so these were just 11
• 58:53
  you had right? like gosh, no, no, it was
• 58:55
  like it was a an unfathomable amount of
• 58:59
  like self-editing and work and and like
• 59:01
  reflection and all that kind of stuff,
• 59:03
  you know. I think so much about
• 59:05
  similarly there was a um movie I was
• 59:08
  working on for like a major studio that
• 59:10
  had asked me to do a complete draft
• 59:13
  which is like really unusual
• 59:15
  >> and I was like so excited to do this and
• 59:17
  there is a scene in this movie that I
• 59:21
  think probably is the
• 59:24
  maybe still like the best thing I've
• 59:26
  ever written
• 59:27
  >> and I remember and unfortunately it's uh
• 59:30
  that that has since been struck down and
• 59:33
  It was for an IP, so I can never use it
• 59:35
  for anything. But the Yeah. Yeah. So
• 59:37
  that's fine. But um I remember writing
• 59:39
  that scene and like coming out of my
• 59:41
  office and running into my wife's office
• 59:44
  and being like,
• 59:47
  "Sarah, I figured something out. I like
• 59:49
  figured something out." And I like saw
• 59:52
  this thing I made that recontextualized
• 59:55
  everything I had made prior to that
• 59:58
  thing. And
• 1:00:01
  I think that my writing can be
• 1:00:04
  categorized into like two eras and it's
• 1:00:06
  like before and after I wrote that song.
• 1:00:08
  >> Gosh, that's the best. No, I dude I'm
• 1:00:10
  actually the same way with my
• 1:00:10
  songwriting. Uh, one of the last songs
• 1:00:12
  we wrote for the album is called smoke a
• 1:00:14
  smoke alarm
• 1:00:15
  >> and I wrote that and I was like this is
• 1:00:17
  actually it. And so I went back and I
• 1:00:19
  changed a bunch of lyrics and stuff cuz
• 1:00:20
  I was like no no no it needs to point to
• 1:00:21
  this and it needs to arrive here. Um it
• 1:00:25
  like it needs to it has to because this
• 1:00:28
  is the idea. This is actually where it's
• 1:00:29
  all where it all should be pointing
• 1:00:30
  towards.
• 1:00:32
  >> Oh man,
• 1:00:33
  >> this is the stuff podcast another
• 1:00:36
  podcast just about this dude. Oh my god.
• 1:00:38
  >> Stick with this. Yeah. I mean I don't
• 1:00:39
  know. Uh uh I I just
• 1:00:42
  I like
• 1:00:44
  expression and it's what's cool too is I
• 1:00:46
  think like I was kind of giddy when I
• 1:00:49
  saw Did you post your your Octtopath
• 1:00:51
  thing this morning or was that
• 1:00:52
  yesterday? It was yesterday.
• 1:00:53
  >> Got it. I I was kind of giddy when I saw
• 1:00:55
  that because I was working on my essay
• 1:00:58
  for the week and it wasn't going well
• 1:00:59
  and you said something on Blue Sky about
• 1:01:02
  like, you know, oh, it's cool. Like if
• 1:01:05
  you listen to the episode from last
• 1:01:06
  week, you'll see that this went through
• 1:01:08
  some edits and and whatever. Um, it's
• 1:01:11
  like that is not that song is not
• 1:01:12
  finished at all.
• 1:01:14
  >> I don't even know if I like a bunch of
• 1:01:16
  the lyrics, but there's enough there
• 1:01:18
  that I'm like this there's a there's a
• 1:01:20
  kernel here that I I like. And so if it
• 1:01:22
  ever comes out, if I ever work on it
• 1:01:23
  more or whatever, I will be interested
• 1:01:25
  to maybe re revisit this in the way that
• 1:01:26
  I like to revisit old demos and go like,
• 1:01:28
  "Oh yeah, this is what that lyric used
• 1:01:30
  to be." Oh yeah, this is how the song
• 1:01:31
  structure used to be and it's like got
• 1:01:33
  edited and changed and whatever to be
• 1:01:35
  this other thing so that it can it can
• 1:01:37
  be stronger. But it's always interesting
• 1:01:39
  to see where it starts. Yeah, writing I
• 1:01:41
  think is such a funny thing in that
• 1:01:42
  regard because um I know that like a lot
• 1:01:45
  of students and like young writers that
• 1:01:47
  I work with get so attached to the
• 1:01:50
  things that they write. And I know for
• 1:01:52
  me I I I will say I think I'm a special
• 1:01:54
  case because I kind of have a reputation
• 1:01:55
  for being extremely unattached to the
• 1:01:57
  I'm like I'm ready to ready to kill. Uh,
• 1:02:00
  but there's always one thing that I'm
• 1:02:03
  like, it's really all just about getting
• 1:02:06
  to this.
• 1:02:07
  >> If I can if I can get you there to that
• 1:02:09
  line, to this idea, to this feeling,
• 1:02:12
  then that is the thing that I am
• 1:02:13
  unwilling to budge on. And I think even
• 1:02:16
  with something as silly about that
• 1:02:20
  octopath piece, I realized in reading it
• 1:02:23
  on the podcast that I wasn't quite
• 1:02:27
  peing at the moment that I wanted. And
• 1:02:29
  so just kind of like coming back and
• 1:02:31
  being like, how could I mean the the new
• 1:02:34
  first sentence to that piece is Renu's
• 1:02:37
  voice is pretty annoying. Like this is a
• 1:02:39
  it's like a dramatically different piece
• 1:02:41
  now. Yeah.
• 1:02:42
  >> Yeah. Well, so what you just hit on is
• 1:02:44
  something that like I've been uh
• 1:02:47
  writing a lot of stuff with you for my
• 1:02:49
  YouTube channel where like I'll write
• 1:02:50
  stuff and I'll show it to you and
• 1:02:51
  whatever. And there's something so good
• 1:02:53
  about showing someone else something
• 1:02:56
  because I don't know about you, it's a
• 1:02:58
  little bit like what like apartment
• 1:02:59
  hunting is like where you you like set
• 1:03:02
  like step into a room and the second
• 1:03:04
  that you step in there you go like no we
• 1:03:06
  don't need to we don't need to do the
• 1:03:07
  whole tour.
• 1:03:08
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even though it's
• 1:03:10
  like it's like it's kind of ridiculous
• 1:03:11
  because it's like well you didn't see
• 1:03:12
  the whole thing. It's like no I just
• 1:03:13
  know. And so like reading back something
• 1:03:15
  to someone else is sometimes like I I
• 1:03:17
  started like we've been talking about
• 1:03:19
  like I've been working on this like
• 1:03:20
  Metroid Prime video that I just hasn't
• 1:03:21
  been coming together for me but I've
• 1:03:22
  been like you know maybe it's okay and
• 1:03:24
  then I start reading it to you and I'm
• 1:03:25
  like embarrassed. I'm like no we're
• 1:03:27
  going to see it through cuz that's what
• 1:03:28
  we're doing but like no no no. And and
• 1:03:30
  so like just bringing something to
• 1:03:33
  someone else is just so like for me it's
• 1:03:36
  so helpful to just identify like this is
• 1:03:39
  not it. We we can f we got to get to the
• 1:03:41
  point to find what it is but it's not
• 1:03:44
  this. This is funny because not not
• 1:03:46
  everybody is like this, but you and I
• 1:03:47
  both I think have like a performer thing
• 1:03:50
  with us and there is something about
• 1:03:52
  that like even that tiny performance
• 1:03:55
  where you start clocking things in your
• 1:03:57
  head about like about like oh this isn't
• 1:03:59
  this isn't okay. Like my nervous system
• 1:04:01
  was on fire when we did that Metroid
• 1:04:03
  Prime 4 podcast and I was reading the
• 1:04:05
  like purposefully bad review script
• 1:04:08
  because I was just thinking about the
• 1:04:09
  there's a part of me that's that is like
• 1:04:12
  hearing it from the audience's
• 1:04:13
  perspective and I'm just like, "Oh, this
• 1:04:15
  is painful. Holy shit."
• 1:04:16
  >> Yes. Yes.
• 1:04:18
  >> No, it it's it's that thing about the
• 1:04:20
  self-conscious, not self-consciousness,
• 1:04:21
  but maybe self-editing where you're
• 1:04:23
  like, "No, cut this. This has to be
• 1:04:24
  shorter. This is too long." You know
• 1:04:26
  what I mean? Like that sort of stuff
• 1:04:27
  that goes off. And when we were doing
• 1:04:28
  obviously that where we were uh maybe
• 1:04:30
  intentionally uh working against our
• 1:04:33
  better judgment um
• 1:04:35
  >> of course it's going to just like that
• 1:04:36
  alarm is just like no change this this
• 1:04:38
  is bad wrong wrong like the entire time.
• 1:04:42
  Um but I think it's good to have those
• 1:04:45
  instincts and I think I think like
• 1:04:48
  it can be difficult for me to present
• 1:04:50
  something to someone
• 1:04:52
  >> that I know in my heart of hearts isn't
• 1:04:54
  it but I've tried to convince myself is.
• 1:04:56
  Oh, been there. Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  >> Cuz you show it to someone and they go
• 1:04:59
  and this is why you show it to them and
• 1:05:01
  this is why you trust them. They say
• 1:05:03
  like, "Peter, this isn't it." And you
• 1:05:05
  know they're right, but you're like,
• 1:05:06
  "Fuck, but can't it be? Can't we just
• 1:05:08
  pretend that it is? Can't we all just
• 1:05:10
  pretend that this is it?" It's like,
• 1:05:11
  "No,
• 1:05:12
  >> dude."
• 1:05:13
  >> It's brutal. Honestly, that's something
• 1:05:14
  I think about with books all the time
• 1:05:16
  where I like try to be charitable to
• 1:05:17
  books because I'm like you need to I
• 1:05:20
  think you really need to give a book
• 1:05:22
  like 35 40 pages before you can like
• 1:05:25
  honestly decide you don't want to read
• 1:05:26
  any more of it.
• 1:05:27
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:05:27
  >> And it's it's this thing where it's like
• 1:05:29
  you've you've got to
• 1:05:32
  >> I don't know. It's it's it's the the
• 1:05:34
  bigger something gets, the more I think
• 1:05:37
  generous you almost have to be in in
• 1:05:41
  seeing through what they want you to see
• 1:05:43
  through.
• 1:05:44
  >> It's it's it's almost like the the
• 1:05:48
  >> you know I I think this sounds stupid,
• 1:05:49
  but like does the first sentence have to
• 1:05:51
  be the most compelling thing in the
• 1:05:53
  entire book?
• 1:05:55
  >> Like no, because everybody that reads
• 1:05:56
  the first sentence will assuredly read
• 1:05:58
  the second.
• 1:06:00
  >> Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  >> And but then when does that end? Like
• 1:06:02
  when do you when do you have to have
• 1:06:04
  proved it? You know what I mean? It's
• 1:06:05
  like funny. So which sentence is it?
• 1:06:07
  Right. And it's it's like
• 1:06:08
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny.
• 1:06:10
  >> Yeah.
• 1:06:11
  >> During this episode, I almost reached I
• 1:06:13
  I was so close to doing this and I had
• 1:06:14
  to I had to abstain. But I was so close
• 1:06:17
  to reaching back here and uh pulling out
• 1:06:19
  when I talked about the preparedness of
• 1:06:20
  a text. I've got a a Julian Barnes book
• 1:06:23
  here that has um it's definitely one of
• 1:06:26
  my favorite books of all time, but it
• 1:06:27
  also has what I think is my favorite
• 1:06:30
  first page in all of literature. I come
• 1:06:34
  back to this first page all of the time
• 1:06:37
  and I'm like, no one has ever done it
• 1:06:39
  better. If you read this first page and
• 1:06:41
  you don't want to read the rest of the
• 1:06:42
  book, I don't know if I can be your
• 1:06:43
  friend. I like I just I that Oh my god,
• 1:06:48
  >> I love that.
• 1:06:49
  >> Let me see what what I can grab. Um,
• 1:06:51
  >> what's a video game with a really good
• 1:06:52
  first page?
• 1:06:57
  >> I said this to you the other day, maybe
• 1:06:59
  on a bonus spot or something, or maybe
• 1:07:00
  we were just gabbing, but uh, Persona 5.
• 1:07:02
  I really like the
• 1:07:03
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's got such a
• 1:07:05
  good opening.
• 1:07:06
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:07:06
  >> Um, I think the one that most people I
• 1:07:09
  think are are drawn to is like Uncharted
• 1:07:11
  2, Train. It's I think that's a good
• 1:07:13
  one,
• 1:07:14
  >> man. Should I replay the Uncharted
• 1:07:16
  games?
• 1:07:16
  >> No, they don't. No, really? I don't
• 1:07:18
  know. I I mean, okay, I have nostalgia
• 1:07:21
  for them. I played them for the first
• 1:07:22
  time in 2020.
• 1:07:23
  >> Um, I played all of them back to back to
• 1:07:26
  back to back.
• 1:07:26
  >> I did the same thing before Uncharted 4
• 1:07:28
  came out. I played them all.
• 1:07:30
  >> So, I did that before Last of Us 2 came
• 1:07:31
  out cuz I was like, "What's Dog doing?"
• 1:07:32
  Like, I was like, "What's this?" Cuz I
• 1:07:34
  didn't have much background with them
• 1:07:35
  other than the first game. So, yeah. So,
• 1:07:36
  I played all of those. Uh, and I didn't
• 1:07:38
  I I It was one of those things where I
• 1:07:40
  was like, "Oh,
• 1:07:42
  oh, no." Oh, see, I think I actually
• 1:07:45
  kind of liked them because they were
• 1:07:47
  light and breezy and
• 1:07:48
  >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, like they're
• 1:07:50
  >> I'm not very good at I'm not very good
• 1:07:52
  at like shooting games, but Uncharted
• 1:07:53
  was like, "Jake, what if you were good
• 1:07:55
  at shooting games?" I'm like,
• 1:07:57
  >> you know what's You know what's fun? Uh,
• 1:07:59
  in Uncharted one, one of my I I think
• 1:08:02
  about this a lot.
• 1:08:03
  >> Is that the one where you start on the
• 1:08:04
  boat?
• 1:08:05
  >> Yes. So, you start on the boat.
• 1:08:06
  >> That's a good start.
• 1:08:07
  >> And you're with Elena,
• 1:08:08
  >> the name of the love interest. It's
• 1:08:12
  Elena. Dude, I found I found Elena. I
• 1:08:13
  know. It's just like a video game.
• 1:08:15
  >> Uh, and
• 1:08:17
  uh
• 1:08:19
  there's pirates and they show up. You're
• 1:08:21
  like doing like underwater like whatever
• 1:08:24
  and pirates show up
• 1:08:25
  >> and Nathan Drake hands Elena a gun.
• 1:08:28
  She's like a she's like a reporter, I
• 1:08:29
  think.
• 1:08:30
  >> And he he gives her a firearm
• 1:08:32
  >> and and she's like, "Whoa, what the
• 1:08:34
  fuck?" And she he's like, "You're going
• 1:08:36
  to have to use this." And he's like, "Do
• 1:08:38
  you know how to use it?" And she's like,
• 1:08:40
  "Yeah, it's just like a camera. point
• 1:08:41
  and shoot and then they move on. But
• 1:08:44
  like in real life it's like no Elena,
• 1:08:47
  you're about to take a human life.
• 1:08:51
  >> It's just like posting a picture on
• 1:08:52
  Instagram, dude. It's like
• 1:08:53
  >> Elena, not even 1% is it like that.
• 1:08:57
  You're about to shoot like like you're
• 1:08:59
  about to shoot a man off a little ski.
• 1:09:01
  >> Can I can I tell you something? Not to
• 1:09:02
  be a crazy person, but I think for the
• 1:09:04
  for the tone of that game, I actually
• 1:09:06
  think I actually think that it's it's a
• 1:09:08
  good line, actually. No, that's a really
• 1:09:09
  No, that's a really really good lie.
• 1:09:11
  It's just so silly. It's just such a
• 1:09:12
  silly like,
• 1:09:13
  >> "Yeah, point and shoot." And he's like,
• 1:09:14
  "Yeah, you got it." But it's like,
• 1:09:16
  >> "No, you're about to That person is
• 1:09:19
  going to be dead because of you."
• 1:09:22
  >> I bet if we go back to it.
• 1:09:24
  >> Yeah.
• 1:09:24
  >> The voice actor injects a little bit of
• 1:09:27
  unease.
• 1:09:28
  >> Oh, yeah. Or kind of kind of like
• 1:09:29
  sarcasm a little bit. Or
• 1:09:31
  >> shoot. Yeah, sure.
• 1:09:34
  >> Those those games are all right. I
• 1:09:37
  I think Uncharted 2 stands out as like,
• 1:09:39
  oh, this one's got the juice.
• 1:09:41
  >> I don't know how this happened to us,
• 1:09:43
  but in the back in the in the back, you
• 1:09:45
  know, tenth of this pod.
• 1:09:47
  >> Welcome to essentially bonus pod two.
• 1:09:49
  >> That's what I was going to say. If
• 1:09:50
  you're interested in this kind of
• 1:09:51
  conversation, then I think
• 1:09:52
  patreon.com/critical error, the bonus
• 1:09:54
  pod might be for you. But I also want to
• 1:09:56
  say that for the person who made it this
• 1:09:58
  far in the podcast, who you've just been
• 1:10:00
  hanging out with us when we veered way
• 1:10:02
  off course from the uh proposed topic,
• 1:10:06
  >> do you want to get into the comments of
• 1:10:09
  this YouTube video or on Patreon and say
• 1:10:13
  something to us about the Cuz sometimes
• 1:10:16
  you and I when we veer, it's like a
• 1:10:19
  different kind of content that could
• 1:10:21
  exist. And I wonder if when you know we
• 1:10:25
  try to kind of stay firmly in this lane
• 1:10:27
  of how people talk about games and the
• 1:10:30
  zeitgeist and discourse and all this
• 1:10:32
  other stuff and I and I wonder if there
• 1:10:34
  is a kind of content type as we expand
• 1:10:37
  and grow critical error if there is
• 1:10:39
  something that this person listening is
• 1:10:41
  like I would really just like to see you
• 1:10:43
  guys do this revisit this game go back
• 1:10:47
  do this in this way whatever it is I
• 1:10:49
  would just like to know I think that the
• 1:10:50
  person who is still with us at this
• 1:10:52
  particular point in time is the one of
• 1:10:54
  the kinds of listeners that I am almost
• 1:10:56
  most interested in hearing from.
• 1:10:57
  >> I bet they've got a perspective on it.
• 1:10:59
  >> Yes, agreed.
• 1:11:00
  >> Anything else?
• 1:11:01
  >> Thanks for being here.
• 1:11:03
  >> That's what I got. Thanks for being
• 1:11:04
  here.
• 1:11:05
  >> Until again.